Database Users

Galaxy S ~ Camera Spec

Has anyone else noticed the F Stop/Aperature on the i9000.
It's a super low f2.6
As anyone who understands photography, the lower the number the more light is let in and as such means you can work and shoot better in poor/dim lit conditions.
The trade off is a Low Depth of Field.
I have quite a few cameras and at f2 they produce some stunning night photography.
Granted the sensor is not up to the same standards as that found in class camera lens but to have an f2.6 in this camera should still be great for shots that either require a bit of speed or for low lit situations.
Seeing as the i9000 does not have an LED Flash this is certainly going to help.

interesting piece of news thank you. sounds good!

i know quite a bit of photography, and in theory your right.
The only thing is that most phone cams have 'super big aperature', but since the lenses are very small and the sensors are also, it doesn't say anything about the quality.
Also the aperature doesn't say anything about the number of lumens the lens can catch.
it's just a calculation number.
aperature with your zoom factor make your depth of field and actually it stops there.
I have seen 4.5 lensen (on my dSLR) that can make perfect pics with no light at all, but also i've seen 2.8 lensens that suck totaly. simply because if the small lens opening.
On the other hand. Though it's still a calcuating number, it does give a good indication if you compare it to other phone cams.

Thanks for the input... appreciated.
I fully understand and agree in what you are saying.
If we look at the Nokia N97 which although not the best phone camera on the market it is known for taking surprisingly good low light photography.
Apart from the fact it has a dual LED for flash photography it's construction and lens is quite similar.
Taking aside the similarities, if you look at it's F-Stop it is slightly higher at f2.8 against an f2.6 on the i9000.
It's not much different I agree but even if it were one would expect low light or fast shooting to be on par with the N97.
I've seen shots taken with the N97 and was quite impressed at it's low light attitude.
Rarely during the day/night was the flash required.
I'm exceptionally pleased at the i9000's aperture/F-Stop and Focal range.
I for one am now not as concerned it does not have a dedicated Flash.

I'm quite excited about the camera as well. I almost never use the flash on my Omina I because I get much better results by playing around with the camera settings. The only problem is that the camera seems to have trouble focusing in low light/low contrast situations. With flash, the photos look washed out and are still out of focus. Hopefully the manual focus option and "fast auto focus" the gsmarena review mentions mean that it is possible to get good low light photos with the Galaxy S even without flash.
That said, I'm put off by the reports about video recording being choppy/crashing and the camera failing to load.

latraviata said:
That said, I'm put off by the reports about video recording being choppy/crashing and the camera failing to load.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here a bit... I saw videos of the Samsung Wave camera 720p video and they look better than the samples of the Galaxy S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHQs_DpFFoI <-- Samsung Wave.. very very nice especially the plants.

Camera Grainy and Inaccurate (with proof and comparison)

Hey guys,
I did a comparison with my 3yr old samsung innov8, which also has a 8mpixel camera. I have taken pics and found that my new Galaxy S2 camera extremely poor indoors compared to my Innov8. My Galaxy S2 camera seems to produce very poor detail, over sharpened and grainy images, unable to capture colours and lighting accurately. Old Innov8 is at least twice as much better!
I am wondering if I got a faulty device or is this considered to be normal? Everyone seems to be praising the camera quality, so I'm beginning to get a little worried. I would also appreciate if some of you could take low-light images, preferably in a room at night.
Finally, pictures I took, for your reference:
Samsung Galaxy S2
imageshack.us/photo/my-images/810/galaxys2e.jpg
Note: I took a few pictures around the room and picked the best one.
Samsung Innov8
imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/innov82.jpg
imageshack.us/photo/my-images/64/innov8.jpg
As you can see, my old phone takes much cleaner pictures and colour is more accurate, albeit cold/blueish. It is overall better. Just to add on, it tends to have a slight pink tone in the center also.
Camera firmware is OCED10.
Baseband - XXKDH
Kernal - XWKDD
Build - XWKDD
Thanks and Cheers!

Mine isn't great indoors too very grainy, out doors im well impressed
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App

Have you tried adjusting the iso settings on the GS2?

See the metadata of your pics.
SGS is compromising on ISO to maintain better shutter speed by default. That picture is at ISO400. The Innovo 8 is at ISO 200.
Thats why there is so much noise in SGS pic.
If you prefer little under exposed pics and rather have images with less noise, just set your iso manually at 100 or 200 for indoor pics.

My camera is very grainy indoors too. Outside, it's fine.
I tried setting it at at lower ISO, but it's still very grainy.
I also have the pink blob in the middle... :S What's with that!?

Funkym0nkey said:
See the metadata of your pics.
SGS is compromising on ISO to maintain better shutter speed by default. That picture is at ISO400. The Innovo 8 is at ISO 200.
Thats why there is so much noise in SGS pic.
If you prefer little under exposed pics and rather have images with less noise, just set your iso manually at 100 or 200 for indoor pics.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes i did notice that. I tried to set it on ISO 100 and ISO 200 as well. Slightly better, but no where as good as my Innov8. I have been trying all sort of test this past 2 days.

you cant compare one of the best mobile camera phones with sgs s 2...i have i8510 (im writing this post from Innov8 and i had also i8910 and what i can say is that the quality of optics,camera chip is bigger - even i8910 is noisy looser with much less detailed photos with compar. to i8510...so try to compare with nowadays smartphones not i8510 or N86 etc. Just look at my thread about sgs s 2 photos and be glad it can do such a good photos...

haha yeah i guess so.. huge difference huh. kinda heart breaking oh well. just glad to know that my device isn't a faulty one

amukilla said:
Hey guys,
I did a comparison with my 3yr old samsung innov8, which also has a 8mpixel camera. I have taken pics and found that my new Galaxy S2 camera extremely poor indoors compared to my Innov8. My Galaxy S2 camera seems to produce very poor detail, over sharpened and grainy images, unable to capture colours and lighting accurately. Old Innov8 is at least twice as much better!
I am wondering if I got a faulty device or is this considered to be normal? Everyone seems to be praising the camera quality, so I'm beginning to get a little worried. I would also appreciate if some of you could take low-light images, preferably in a room at night.
Finally, pictures I took, for your reference:
Samsung Galaxy S2
imageshack.us/photo/my-images/810/galaxys2e.jpg
Note: I took a few pictures around the room and picked the best one.
Samsung Innov8
imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/innov82.jpg
imageshack.us/photo/my-images/64/innov8.jpg
As you can see, my old phone takes much cleaner pictures and colour is more accurate, albeit cold/blueish. It is overall better. Just to add on, it tends to have a slight pink tone in the center also.
Camera firmware is OCED10.
Baseband - XXKDH
Kernal - XWKDD
Build - XWKDD
Thanks and Cheers!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you can choose night mode, the sgs2 are using ISO400, 1/17s (more faster shutter speed but with higher ISO), but the Innov8 is using ISO200, 1/8s (very slow shutter speed but lower ISO) ---> see the Innov8 is too much of noise reduction has been apply on the photo and cause the detail losed a lot + handshake due to slow shutter speed.
SGS2 also can get as Innov8 result as long as you choose night mode or manually reduce ISO to 200 but remember, you will get slower shutter speed.

I do wish people would stop chelping about the camera, if you want professional results get a professional camera, this camera is perfectly acceptable in good light conditions.

Agreed. This is not a system camera. However, it's argubly the best phone camera device on the market, so everything depends on what to compare it with. Personally, I'm pretty amazed about what it can muster.

stoolzo said:
I do wish people would stop chelping about the camera, if you want professional results get a professional camera, this camera is perfectly acceptable in good light conditions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
to be honest i'd like to have a pro-like quality out of the phone, because while we're not making actual pro-pictures, its one thing less to carry around if the quality is good.
in some cases it actually is on the SGS2

stoolzo said:
I do wish people would stop chelping about the camera, if you want professional results get a professional camera, this camera is perfectly acceptable in good light conditions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not only that. I have at all times a professional photographer in my entourage.

How does it compare to the SGS? How will it compare to the Sensation? Those are probably two good benchmarks.

The fact that the phone is able to take pictures of this magnitude, especially considering how light and thin it is, is itself amazing. Its not really possible with today's technology to squeeze larger sensors and keep the thickness down.
This guy here(who is a professional photographer) says the camera is 'very good' and looking at the pictures I think so too.
So I really think you people should stop complaining and enjoy what the phone has to offer without being so uptight about every minute problem.

MrDeacon said:
Agreed. This is not a system camera. However, it's argubly the best phone camera device on the market, so everything depends on what to compare it with. Personally, I'm pretty amazed about what it can muster.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is nowhere near as being the best camera phone. My gf has a Nokia N8 and you cannot believe the pictures she is able to produce with her phone. Will make this weekend a side by side comparison, with pictures of the same thing taken at the same time using both phones... I know N8 will win, just curious how much ahead it is ( and will use it at 8MP and not 12 MP to be fair ).
On another note, the indoor pics are crappy, but to be expected ( high MP count in a tiny sensor = noise ). Outdoor pics look very well indeed, even at full size they are ok. For me, not enough to replace a dedicated camera, but more than enough for the occasional picture and movie ( movies look excellent outside too ). I should mention that the N8 performs like a compact dedicated camera, so that sensor would be enough for most vacations.
Overall, given the fact that it is a phone afterall, I am more than pleased with the camera quality.

Azra2k said:
It is nowhere near as being the best camera phone. My gf has a Nokia N8 and you cannot believe the pictures she is able to produce with her phone. Will make this weekend a side by side comparison, with pictures of the same thing taken at the same time using both phones... I know N8 will win, just curious how much ahead it is ( and will use it at 8MP and not 12 MP to be fair ).
On another note, the indoor pics are crappy, but to be expected ( high MP count in a tiny sensor = noise ). Outdoor pics look very well indeed, even at full size they are ok. For me, not enough to replace a dedicated camera, but more than enough for the occasional picture and movie ( movies look excellent outside too ). I should mention that the N8 performs like a compact dedicated camera, so that sensor would be enough for most vacations.
Overall, given the fact that it is a phone afterall, I am more than pleased with the camera quality.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let's make a comparison SGS2 vs n8

Azra2k said:
It is nowhere near as being the best camera phone. My gf has a Nokia N8 and you cannot believe the pictures she is able to produce with her phone. Will make this weekend a side by side comparison, with pictures of the same thing taken at the same time using both phones... I know N8 will win, just curious how much ahead it is ( and will use it at 8MP and not 12 MP to be fair ).
On another note, the indoor pics are crappy, but to be expected ( high MP count in a tiny sensor = noise ). Outdoor pics look very well indeed, even at full size they are ok. For me, not enough to replace a dedicated camera, but more than enough for the occasional picture and movie ( movies look excellent outside too ). I should mention that the N8 performs like a compact dedicated camera, so that sensor would be enough for most vacations.
Overall, given the fact that it is a phone afterall, I am more than pleased with the camera quality.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
cool! i wanted to see such a test. even at 12MP in fact. We all know the N8 is going to win, but i'd like to see by how much.
I had a N95 in the past and it replaced my camera. I have a SGS right now (and a SGS2 tomorrow or so lol) and it is not as good in most conditions. It's probably because the lens is really much better and bigger on the N95 (and on the N8, and on most Nokias in fact..)
I almost went for the N8 just for that, but tbh, Symbian is a pain and the browser is really bad

Looking forward to the N8 comparison as well!

to be fair the N8's camera is very good but as a an overall package its **** compared to the S2.
Yes, we would all like to get close to pro results out of it but it isnt going to happen with such a small sensor / lens
It should also be noted that a good photo, a good camera does not necessarily make.

Camera Question

Ive read in the research that the S4 takes beautiful pictures, but that a challenge for more casual "snapshot" usage is that it blurs pretty easily if not held very steady.
I use my phone camera mostly for things like whipping out my phone and snapping a quick pic of the kids running around, or a friend skiing by over a jump, etc.
So while I know the PQ is awesome on the S4, Im worried that maybe for my needs the camera wont be great as it may not be well suited to snapping those pictures in situations where you dont have time to really position yourself, be still, frame the pic, etc.
Can anyone share with me whether this has been your experience?

lirong said:
Ive read in the research that the S4 takes beautiful pictures, but that a challenge for more casual "snapshot" usage is that it blurs pretty easily if not held very steady.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also own a high-end full frame camera, but have been amazed by the S4 camera. I certainly would not say that it "blurs pretty easily if not held very steady." S4 pictures are sharper than the iphone 5 or galaxy s3, both of which I used at lot.
That said, if your primary concern is minimizing blur from fast moving objects, you might be better off with the HTC One, especially if pics are taken in low light. I say that not having tried the HTC, but just based on its specs.
If you are you are taking pictures of the kids running around or someone skiing, whether or not you are holding the camera steady doesn't matter that much. The motion of the subject will outweigh camera shake (unless you have very shaky hands). For minimizing the blur from moving objects you want a fast lens and sensor with low noise at high ISO. The specs of the HTC One camera are better in both those respects.
If your concern is motion blur from the camera itself shaking (but again, this is typically not a consideration when taking pictures of fast moving objects), the HTC One has optical image stabilization which reduces motion blur from camera shake. The S4 does not have this.

One camera is better in low light (bigger pixels, OIS) than GS4, but 4MP is usually a dealbreaker for the average joe. Overall i think the One has a better camera than the S4 (which is WAY oversharpened and oversaturated). I actually like the flatter images out of the iPhone 5, but i dont use my phone as a camera unless its a random shot and i dont have a real camera with me.
Typically i shoot Nikon D4 and GF shoots Canon 5D Mk III, but for parties or random stuff, cell pic is ok.

What I found is that you either need to switch to sports mode or lower the exposure to -1.5. This essentially raised the shutter to 1/30 instead of 1/15 which is way too slow.
The annoying part is that the camera doesn't retain the settings...

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The one is oversharpened. Its 4 megapixels the s4 tends to look sharp until you zoom it in on the phone because of so many pixels crammed in. Please know what you're saying before you go out and say it. I also do photography but that isn't relevant to this
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

I don't understand your post. Please improve the grammar in what you're saying before you go out and say it.

GeorgeP said:
I don't understand your post. Please improve the grammar in what you're saying before you go out and say it.
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Let me reiterate, One, I wasn't talking to you I was talking to the poster below you. And also what I stated was that the HTC One has 4 ultrapixels and such so it tends to let in more light because less pixels mean bigger pixels in the same size sensor, so more light can be let in. As well as a wider aperture that the One has over the S4.
The pictures are good in low light but in normal lighting conditions the HTC one is extremely oversharpened to compensate for the low quality the images it produces. The images aren't bad because it's 4 megapixels it's just bad because the software and optics are subpar in anything but low light.
The S4 uses a sensor even superior to the iPhone 5. Look at gsmareana for comparisons.
The HTC one got a 6 overall, the iPhone 5 an 8 and the Galaxy S4 a 9.

Buying G4 Plus for Camera

Hello,
I have read mixed reviews of the G4 Plus camera, while DxoMark gives it a score of 84. Many others consider it average in day light and worst in low light,
can anyone can post unedited/un-cropped images for sample. Is the G4 Plus a good buy as camera phone ?
Thank you.

In my experience it's a very good camera for a phone. Pictures here won't mean probably too much, since you have no reference point and the low resolution imposed by XDA.

Okay, let me tell you my experience. It's a good camera overall. Takes very vivid and sharp images in daylight ie in good conditions. But It has an average to above-average performance in low light conditions but..but..but.. certainly better than many phones that are in its price range. Another thing I wanna mention is that it struggles to snap moving objects. It's 'cause the g4 plus lacks optical image stabilization. I think for many of us It'd be a big deal. For me it's NOT.
I would certainly recommend this phone for phone photography.
Hit like if this post helped you

tobey_onk said:
Okay, let me tell you my experience. It's a good camera overall. Takes very vivid and sharp images in daylight ie in good conditions. But It has an average to above-average performance in low light conditions but..but..but.. certainly better than many phones that are in its price range. Another thing I wanna mention is that it struggles to snap moving objects. It's 'cause the g4 plus lacks optical image stabilization. I think for many of us It'd be a big deal. For me it's NOT.
I would certainly recommend this phone for phone photography.
Hit like if this post helped you
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Click to collapse
Does this moving objects lag happens in manual mode as well ? when shutter is set to higher speed or only in auto mode ?
i think the fastest shutter speed is 1/5 in pro mode can you confirm this ?
Thanks

For camera, this phone is goooood.....?
But you should also pay attention to other issues like heating while camera is in use for more time and screen burn and ghosts touch..
( while screen burn and ghost touch is not common in all device, but if your luck is working wrong then you will have to face them )

tobey_onk said:
but..but..but.. certainly better than many phones that are in its price range.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I seriously doubt that is another phone with a better camera at this price point ($300). In low level light or in daylight. You need to move up to $700 to get a better camera (like added optical zoom and stabilization).
Now, I always say that phones cannot compete with dedicated cameras, therefore they should not be used for planned photo sessions (like when you expect to have great subjects).

Well HTC desire 628 ( my last phone ) gave shutter speed of 1/8000. so i don't want to get anything lower than that. Other option i got is ZTE Nubia Z11 which has an Sony Exmor 298 but not sure if its good enough
https://youtu.be/U8PITTNu7fI?t=179
Thanks

dranzer006 said:
Does this moving objects lag happens in manual mode as well ? when shutter is set to higher speed or only in auto mode ?
i think the fastest shutter speed is 1/5 in pro mode can you confirm this ?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
will try it.

The camera is good for the phone price but it has some quirks which make me irritated.
1. Slow focus, 1 in 3 shots would not have got focused, I notice this issue in pics with people, workaround is to wait additional second after it shows as focused, not always practical. This is probably biggest flaw of this phone. DxO remarks this in their review as well.
2. My earlier phone was nexus 5, OIS made the photos 99% of the time sharp and blur free. With G4 I have to keep my hands extremely steady in poor lighting.
3. I also find the images to be bit over sharpened, not a big deal though. Dynamic range is not that great either, has tendency to blow out sky and highlights.
4. Wide angle lens, didn't like this as objects seem to get curved across the edges of pic, this can and should have been fixed via post processing but moto decided to ignore it.
5. Finally the video recording with EIS is great but heats up the phone like crazy if shooting for long time.
For the price of phone I can forgive issue 2 and 3 but 1st one makes me hate the phone camera as I need to always check if it came out alright. Had I known it before I bought I would have skipped it.
Compared to phones in this price range though it's still decent and great when it works well. Most of the phone seems to have similar issues in this price range.

Photo quality

Say "cheese", then rate this thread to express how photos taken with the Moto Z2 Force come out. A higher rating indicates that photos offer rich color (without over-saturating), sharp detail (with all subjects in-focus), and appropriate exposure (with even lighting).
Then, drop a comment if you have anything to add!

So far I'm pretty pissed off with the camera. I recently tested the LG G6, Huawei Mate 9, OnePlus 5, and now the Moto Z2 Force which I was hoping would be my dream phone. I owned the Z Force and so far and a bit disappointed. The Camera seems to have potential but the software is terrible, at least on my specific device. The camera is plagued with shutter lag which really seems to take a toll on picture quality. Pro mode is what really upset me with only having the option of 1/4 for shutter speed as the longest time for exposure. I have taken a great deal of pictures to compare with the phones listed above, so far the Huawei Mate 9 has had the best camera in my opinion. Obviously, this is totally objective as views will change per individual. I am by no means a photography expert, but I am always in search of a great camera in a smartphone. The biggest reason for my angry toward the quality of the Z2F camera is the retail cost of the phone, I really thought this would be a camera I would have loved. It seems like I may wait to see how the Essentials Phone turns out and am very curious about the Nokia 8, both in terms of camera. To date I think the use of a dual camera, one being monochrome and the other RGB, is the best implementation. Please let me know if the inconsistent shutter I'm facing is just a problem with my unit or if other's share it as well. I really had my heart/mind set on this phone being able to go toe to toe with others in its price range. Side note, the LG G6 wide angle lens was great for taking pictures, I was surprised that I liked the secondary camera being a wide angle lens as it allowed for unique perspective. I let go of the LG G6 because my father broke his phone and really thought the Z2F would be the phone of my dreams.
Update: Twist for camera sometimes hangs and after some time force closes. This has also happened on 2 occasions when opening camera app, viewfinder is black followed by hang and crash.

Ksehwail said:
So far I'm pretty pissed off with the camera. I recently tested the LG G6, Huawei Mate 9, OnePlus 5, and now the Moto Z2 Force which I was hoping would be my dream phone. I owned the Z Force and so far and a bit disappointed. The Camera seems to have potential but the software is terrible, at least on my specific device. The camera is plagued with shutter lag which really seems to take a toll on picture quality. Pro mode is what really upset me with only having the option of 1/4 for shutter speed as the longest time for exposure. I have taken a great deal of pictures to compare with the phones listed above, so far the Huawei Mate 9 has had the best camera in my opinion. Obviously, this is totally objective as views will change per individual. I am by no means a photography expert, but I am always in search of a great camera in a smartphone. The biggest reason for my angry toward the quality of the Z2F camera is the retail cost of the phone, I really thought this would be a camera I would have loved. It seems like I may wait to see how the Essentials Phone turns out and am very curious about the Nokia 8, both in terms of camera. To date I think the use of a dual camera, one being monochrome and the other RGB, is the best implementation. Please let me know if the inconsistent shutter I'm facing is just a problem with my unit or if other's share it as well. I really had my heart/mind set on this phone being able to go toe to toe with others in its price range. Side note, the LG G6 wide angle lens was great for taking pictures, I was surprised that I liked the secondary camera being a wide angle lens as it allowed for unique perspective. I let go of the LG G6 because my father broke his phone and really thought the Z2F would be the phone of my dreams.
Update: Twist for camera sometimes hangs and after some time force closes. This has also happened on 2 occasions when opening camera app, viewfinder is black followed by hang and crash.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Camera shutter speed seems to be a stock app issue mostly. I have CameraZoom FX and that works better at taking the picture quickly. I do expect this to improve as the device matures and some updates get pushed out to it.
That being said, the overall photo quality seems to be pretty good overall. The S8 I am leaving does a better job of handling multiple light levels (like say bright window light in an otherwise dimly lit room), but I do think the Z2F has some promise for sure.
I do agree that I think the shutter lag is very 2015.....so hoping Moto does fix that

disappointing camera
Ksehwail said:
The Camera seems to have potential but the software is terrible, at least on my specific device. The camera is plagued with shutter lag which really seems to take a toll on picture quality. Pro mode is what really upset me with only having the option of 1/4 for shutter speed as the longest time for exposure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with this. The camera app is terrible. I came from the HTC 10 into this phone and the HTC blows it out of the water as far as camera quality goes, and I doubt there's any reason for that as far as the sensor/hardware goes There are also other apps that don't seem to access the front flash on this phone, I.E. Instagram, snapchat, etc. could be a driver issue or something, but motorola needs to get it together with the Android O update.

Has any compared picture quality with Open Camera and the google camera app?

Camera App Update
I just noticed that they added two features to the camera app. Object recognition and landmark recognition.They said that they included some bug fixes but did not elaborate. Hopefully they will continue to work on the app and image quality will improve as the phone matures. I think there is potential to improve low light photo's seeing that the black and white sensor should aid low light photography.
So far I am very happy with my photo's. I am a casual user and happy with the images. Realistically I do not think one can expect DSLR quality on a mobile phone. Maybe one day....

I've used several third party apps, and this camera is total trash compared to even my nearly three year old Galaxy S6.. I have to place dramatic Instagram-style filters on everything to hide how crappy this camera is.

I took this picture with full manual mode and it's quite good for me

why not use Hasellblad?

RE910177 said:
why not use Hasellblad?
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Click to collapse
It's only useful for its optical zoom.

Does anyone have problem with autofocus....? The autofocus on this device is absolutely terrible.

Google Camera port is your friend when it comes to the Z2 Force. Also, Snapseed is a great editor.
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

xRogerxC said:
Google Camera port is your friend when it comes to the Z2 Force. Also, Snapseed is a great editor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, I'm reading through this thread: https://forum.xda-developers.com/z2-force/themes/app-modded-gcam-hdr-t3735494 ; there seems to be no gcam available for Z2, which would be fully functional. Are you saying you solved this issue and have one that works? Perhaps you can post to the thread with your findings if you did?