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OWNER EDIT: Content Removed. The Difference Between 32 Bit And 64 Bit in Windows 8
OWNER EDIT: Content Removed.
Digitally signed drivers is a windows 8 feature NOT a 64 bit limitation.
For some reason you have 64 bit driver incompatibility listed as a good thing? Besides, that is also false. Some 32 bit drivers are indeed incompatible with 64 bit windows, but many do still work. From what I understand its something to do with kernel mode vs user mode drivers. In order for a driver to be receive a signature from microsoft it now requires either a dedicated 64 bit driver or at least 64 bit compatibility.
The difference between 64 bit and 32 bit systems goes much deeper than RAM, in fact the RAM difference is almost a side effect of the main difference. A 32 bit computer only has a 32 bit ALU and registers of max size 32 bits etc, it deals with everything as being 32 bits long, 64 bit is of course 64 bit. In binary you can represent a larger number in 64 bits than you can in 32 bits. In 32 bits you can represent a max value (unsigned) or 4294967295, include 0 as an option and there are 4294967296 values available, also how many memory addresses in RAM you can use, with each memory location being 1 byte you end up with 4294967296 bytes, or 4gb.
In 64 bits you can represent 18446744073709551616, which using the above RAM logic comes to ALOT, seriously, its more than a terabyte by the time I got bored of using my calculator. Windows doesnt support a terabyte no, but in theory it could, most motherboards are 64gb limited, or sometimes 32 (laptops often less).
64 bits however does not increase a computers memory efficiency in any way, only lets you use more of it. More RAM does not make your computer any faster if you were not running out before. Lets say you have 3 1 litre bottles and you need to store 2 litres of water, well having those 3 bottles wont be any better than having the 2 bottles you need to store the water present, the same happens in a computer, just with RAM instead of bottles and data instead of water.
That said there is a performance difference between 64 bit and 32 bit computers when doing maths on LARGE values. a 32 bit computer can only do maths on 32 bit numbers, if you need to do greater than 32 bit maths on a 32 bit machine you have to introduce alot of software steps first (most compilers or interpreters actually do this for you, its only if you insist on hand written assembly that you will have to manually add 2 64 bit numbers without the aid of the hardware so much), this is very very slow. A 64 bit computer can add 64 bit numbers natively. Generally when programming a 32 bit number is an int and a 64 bit number is a long, if you set your compiler to 32 bit and compile a program using longs then it will add the code for software addition for you, does mean that running a program compiled for 32 bit computers on 64 bit machines wont have access to the performance gains of said 64 bit machine. To use a long natively you would have to compile the program for 64 bit machines, in which case it will not work on 32 bit machines.
64 bit windows cannot handle more apps than 32 bit necessarily. You can actually hit the windows thread limit within a 32 bit system assuming each thread uses very little RAM. The thread limit is the same on both 32 bit and 64 bit windows. Now if you have a few proper programs and we arent talking a hypothetical situation of running thousands of programs using a few kb of RAM each then yes more RAM would help and if the amount of RAM required is greater than 4gb then of course 64 bit would be king - as would having a multicore computer.
Dedicated graphics cards DO count towards the 4gb RAM limit.
In a nutshell
32 bit program: no faster regardless of 32 bit or 64 bit.
64 bit program: faster than a 32 bit program running on a 64 bit machine (if it uses maths on very big numbers, or decimal points, they need alot of bits too). Will not run on a 32 bit machine.
32 bit drivers: will run on 32 bit machines. Will sometimes run (but not always) on 64 bit machines (same also applies to 64 bit software actually, 32 bit java often runs into issues on 64 bit windows, yet still if you hit the download button on the java website it downloads 32 bit by default, common cause of the OutOfMemory exception in minecraft is 32 bit java on 64 bit windows).
64 bit drivers: will only run on 64 bit machines.
drivers for both systems must be digitally signed for windows to install them, however there is actually a way to install unsigned drivers in windows 8. In order for a driver to receive a signature from microsoft then it must either a) work on both 32 bit and 64 bit machines or b) have 32 bit and 64 bit versions available seperately (older hardware may not have a 64 bit version available)
But yeah, you can't upgrade from 32 bit windows to 64 bit windows using the microsoft update tools. You need to totally uninstall windows, format your hard disk and install 64 bit windows from scratch as if you were installing windows on a new computer you had built yourself.
Someone gave me their old PC once, had 12gb of RAM fitted and 32 bit windows XP..... They didnt realise that they had purchased 12gb (they replaced the sticks that originally came in the PC) for a system that couldnt take 12gb....
The Info was very useful.. and windows 8 has an option to install the unsigned drivers which is in the advanced startup in pc settings.. and simply 64 has a speed double than that of 32 bit. Most of the 32 bit softwares works with 64 bit. But none of the 64 bit software works with 32 bit system.. in a 64 bit system you will have a separate installation for 32 bit softwares (x86) . By default all the 32 bit softwares go in to that folder. The details of the processor can be found in the system information in properties.. surely I'll go for 64 bit system as the processing speed doubles.
Sent from my Celkon A97i
praderj said:
and simply 64 has a speed double than that of 32 bit
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???
It does not.
Windows 8 supports more than 4 GB on 32 bit mode. It is a system requirement for the processor.
x64 processors are actually faster than 32 bits processors when running native x64 code.
Running 32 bit code on x64 processors does come with a little overhead, as instructions for x64 processors are coded using 64 bits, whereas x32 compiled programs use 32 bits instructions, which, obviously wont be recognized by the x64 CPU. There is fixed by visualizing the whole thing and completing the instruction set with 32 bits depending on the instructions.
It is, technically, ill-advised to run x32 operating systems if you processor is x64 native. The only exception to this rule is when you have less than 4 GB of RAM< because x64 systems consume more RAM than x32 systems.
x32 is pretty much a relic of the past. All CPU's on the planet are x64 CPUs since like 2006.
mcosmin222 said:
Windows 8 supports more than 4 GB on 32 bit mode. It is a system requirement for the processor.
x64 processors are actually faster than 32 bits processors when running native x64 code.
Running 32 bit code on x64 processors does come with a little overhead, as instructions for x64 processors are coded using 64 bits, whereas x32 compiled programs use 32 bits instructions, which, obviously wont be recognized by the x64 CPU. There is fixed by visualizing the whole thing and completing the instruction set with 32 bits depending on the instructions.
It is, technically, ill-advised to run x32 operating systems if you processor is x64 native. The only exception to this rule is when you have less than 4 GB of RAM< because x64 systems consume more RAM than x32 systems.
x32 is pretty much a relic of the past. All CPU's on the planet are x64 CPUs since like 2006.
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x64 processors are not faster *unless* operating on large numbers. A 32 bit processor can only operate on 32 bit numbers so has additional software overhead for 64 bit numbers. 64 bit processors can do 64 bit maths at the same speed a 32 bit processor does 32 bit. Otherwise everything is the *same* speed bar what you have pointed out about x86_32 on x86_64 operating systems having a slight overhead.
x86_64 processors *can* run x86_32 at near native speeds, they actually have full support in hardware for decoding and executing x86_32 and infact boot the BIOS in this mode before changing the value of a register and calling a hardware interrupt to switch modes, it is actually this which causes the 32 bit on 64 bit OS slowdown as the OS is having to switch into and out of 32 bit and 64 bit modes, but the hardware does support it natively.
more than 4gb of ram on 32 bit is possible yes. Physical Address Extension, invented by intel, extended by AMD to allow 52bit addresses. Windows NT itself does support it. However it is *not* a windows 8 requirement, it is required for x86_64 systems but not x86_32. Enabling it on a 32 bit windows install *does not* allow usage of more than 4gb of RAM. Windows always has hard coded maximum memory limits, for all 32 bit versions of windows except the server releases the limit is hardcoded to 4gb, so even with PAE windows 32 bit will only address 4gb. Windows 7 home basic 64 bit was 8gb, premium 16gb, business enterprise and ultimate all 128gb, hard coded limits, they did the same with 32 bit OSes to 4gb. Windows server enterprise and datacentre versions did support PAE on 32 bit systems fully. Heres an odd one, XP starter edition was hardcoded to 512mb. Windows 8 32 bit is also hardcoded to 4gb in both standard and pro variations.
Recent OSX versions boot directly into 64bit mode exclusively. 32 bit OSX supports PAE with a 64gb memory limit. PowerPC OSX versions of course we no longer care about. Linux also supports 64gb PAE on 32bit.
PAE is not a requirement for 32 bit windows. VIA's line of processors do not support PAE yet do run windows (including 8). For 32 bit PAE is entirely optional and with the exception of server entirely useless.
"All CPU's on the planet are x64 CPUs since like 2006."
This one really made me lol, mostly due to poor wording than actual mis-statement of fact. All CPU's? Really, what about the ARM CPU in my phone, the AVR AtMega328 sitting beside me, the MIPS within my PSP behind me. I know that you know about other architectures existing, but did make me chuckle to read that.
But let us assume you meant all x86 CPU's. Intel atom CPU's and models of the AMD geode line aswell as the entire VIA product line are all x86_32 (VIA if you havent heard of them are a big name in x86 embedded boards for industrial usage), so yeah, every processor since 2006 is totally x86_64. A few atom desktop models (they did exist) supported x64 but that was relatively few, bay trail also has 64 bit models, but for the large part atom is 32 bit.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
x64 processors are not faster *unless* operating on large numbers. A 32 bit processor can only operate on 32 bit numbers so has additional software overhead for 64 bit numbers. 64 bit processors can do 64 bit maths at the same speed a 32 bit processor does 32 bit. Otherwise everything is the *same* speed bar what you have pointed out about x86_32 on x86_64 operating systems having a slight overhead.
x86_64 processors *can* run x86_32 at near native speeds, they actually have full support in hardware for decoding and executing x86_32 and infact boot the BIOS in this mode before changing the value of a register and calling a hardware interrupt to switch modes, it is actually this which causes the 32 bit on 64 bit OS slowdown as the OS is having to switch into and out of 32 bit and 64 bit modes, but the hardware does support it natively.
more than 4gb of ram on 32 bit is possible yes. Physical Address Extension, invented by intel, extended by AMD to allow 52bit addresses. Windows NT itself does support it. However it is *not* a windows 8 requirement, it is required for x86_64 systems but not x86_32. Enabling it on a 32 bit windows install *does not* allow usage of more than 4gb of RAM. Windows always has hard coded maximum memory limits, for all 32 bit versions of windows except the server releases the limit is hardcoded to 4gb, so even with PAE windows 32 bit will only address 4gb. Windows 7 home basic 64 bit was 8gb, premium 16gb, business enterprise and ultimate all 128gb, hard coded limits, they did the same with 32 bit OSes to 4gb. Windows server enterprise and datacentre versions did support PAE on 32 bit systems fully. Heres an odd one, XP starter edition was hardcoded to 512mb. Windows 8 32 bit is also hardcoded to 4gb in both standard and pro variations.
Recent OSX versions boot directly into 64bit mode exclusively. 32 bit OSX supports PAE with a 64gb memory limit. PowerPC OSX versions of course we no longer care about. Linux also supports 64gb PAE on 32bit.
PAE is not a requirement for 32 bit windows. VIA's line of processors do not support PAE yet do run windows (including 8). For 32 bit PAE is entirely optional and with the exception of server entirely useless.
"All CPU's on the planet are x64 CPUs since like 2006."
This one really made me lol, mostly due to poor wording than actual mis-statement of fact. All CPU's? Really, what about the ARM CPU in my phone, the AVR AtMega328 sitting beside me, the MIPS within my PSP behind me. I know that you know about other architectures existing, but did make me chuckle to read that.
But let us assume you meant all x86 CPU's. Intel atom CPU's and models of the AMD geode line aswell as the entire VIA product line are all x86_32 (VIA if you havent heard of them are a big name in x86 embedded boards for industrial usage), so yeah, every processor since 2006 is totally x86_64. A few atom desktop models (they did exist) supported x64 but that was relatively few, bay trail also has 64 bit models, but for the large part atom is 32 bit.
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The conversation is contained to stand alone processing units, not SoC (arm, intel atom) or something used in industry, because the latter are not really a choice, they come in package.
So yes, all CPU's since around 2006 are x64 native CPUs.
The limit on Windows 8 memory can be modified, though it is not advised, because the processor will be able to map memory areas which are otherwise inaccesable to windows.
mcosmin222 said:
The conversation is contained to stand alone processing units, not SoC (arm, intel atom) or something used in industry, because the latter are not really a choice, they come in package.
So yes, all CPU's since around 2006 are x64 native CPUs.
The limit on Windows 8 memory can be modified, though it is not advised, because the processor will be able to map memory areas which are otherwise inaccesable to windows.
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Not all CPU's sold in non package form are x86 either, you are seriously mistaken on that front. And still, a SoC is still a CPU.
its always made me chuckle when people declare that a 64bit system is "faster" than a 32bit system
the funny thing is, in the vast majority of cases, and in almost every case for a typical end user, there isn't any differences at all in terms of speed.
Oh well, its probably like the placebo effect. If you think its faster, it probably will seem faster.
as for all the other "actual" differences between the two, SixSixSevernSevern has outlined it very well.
There is an abundance of SoCs and embedded systems running 32bit only and given the world we live in is now very much controlled by SoCs rather than socketed desktop CPUs I think SixSixSevernSeverns point is still valid, 32bit only CPUs are still very much present (although I did spend 10 min looking for a 32 bit off the shelf socketed CPU made post 2006 with no success)
this is about to get a whole lot more muddy with millions of unwashed Apple lovers declaring their 64 bit phones are better than everyone's, but I think from the points made above, we just need to sit there and smile, knowing they are talking out of their arse and got suckered with marketing guff
dazza9075 said:
(although I did spend 10 min looking for a 32 bit off the shelf socketed CPU made post 2006 with no success)
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Although not socketed VIA's x86 chips (yeah there is a 3rd x86 player, mainly for embedded market) are both 32 bit and not SoC's (I think they have a few models which are SoC's but most use external RAM modules etc etc).
Also why would a CPU within a SoC not qualify as being a non 64 bit CPU made since 2006? Thats like saying that the driver seat within your car does not qualify as being a chair because it is within a car and therefore must be something else entirely, its still a chair, yes its within something else but it is still a chair or in this case a CPU.
If you want to be picky, you can still buy z80 DIPs with external memory and data buses, 8 bit CPU made in 2013 and not a SoC (although you can also buy z80 SoC's too now). z80 is still used by hobbyists and embedded systems, does the job fine, cheap to make, why replace it?
PowerPC chips are used in servers still and available in socketed forms, they are 32 bit. same for SPARC.
dazza9075 said:
its always made me chuckle when people declare that a 64bit system is "faster" than a 32bit system
the funny thing is, in the vast majority of cases, and in almost every case for a typical end user, there isn't any differences at all in terms of speed.
Oh well, its probably like the placebo effect. If you think its faster, it probably will seem faster.
as for all the other "actual" differences between the two, SixSixSevernSevern has outlined it very well.
There is an abundance of SoCs and embedded systems running 32bit only and given the world we live in is now very much controlled by SoCs rather than socketed desktop CPUs I think SixSixSevernSeverns point is still valid, 32bit only CPUs are still very much present (although I did spend 10 min looking for a 32 bit off the shelf socketed CPU made post 2006 with no success)
this is about to get a whole lot more muddy with millions of unwashed Apple lovers declaring their 64 bit phones are better than everyone's, but I think from the points made above, we just need to sit there and smile, knowing they are talking out of their arse and got suckered with marketing guff
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About Apple, if they do not take advantage of the processor features, they will, in fact, slow down the phone with 64 bit CPU instead of speeding it up.
As i said, the SoC problem is a non-issue, since you can not choose between 32 and 64 bit there because it is not as if you can go and ask the vendor: "you know, ill have this SoC, you can rip the tablet/phone/AIO apart and replace the one inside with this one cause it is 64 bits".
And if you have SoC, you usually don't have a choice about the Windows 8 version either, since it comes pre-loaded with the matching edition.
So this conversation really boils down to PC users. And the point with x32 processors newer than 2006 is pretty much valid.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Although not socketed VIA's x86 chips (yeah there is a 3rd x86 player, mainly for embedded market) are both 32 bit and not SoC's (I think they have a few models which are SoC's but most use external RAM modules etc etc).
Also why would a CPU within a SoC not qualify as being a non 64 bit CPU made since 2006? Thats like saying that the driver seat within your car does not qualify as being a chair because it is within a car and therefore must be something else entirely, its still a chair, yes its within something else but it is still a chair or in this case a CPU.
If you want to be picky, you can still buy z80 DIPs with external memory and data buses, 8 bit CPU made in 2013 and not a SoC (although you can also buy z80 SoC's too now). z80 is still used by hobbyists and embedded systems, does the job fine, cheap to make, why replace it?
PowerPC chips are used in servers still and available in socketed forms, they are 32 bit. same for SPARC.
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Im agreeing with you on this one, I was mearly playing devils advocate in saying I couldn't find a off the shelf socketed CPU in 32bit post 2006, but I agree that SoCs and embedded systems contain CPUs and are probably more relevant today then trad desktop CPUs
mcosmin222 said:
About Apple, if they do not take advantage of the processor features, they will, in fact, slow down the phone with 64 bit CPU instead of speeding it up.
As i said, the SoC problem is a non-issue, since you can not choose between 32 and 64 bit there because it is not as if you can go and ask the vendor: "you know, ill have this SoC, you can rip the tablet/phone/AIO apart and replace the one inside with this one cause it is 64 bits".
And if you have SoC, you usually don't have a choice about the Windows 8 version either, since it comes pre-loaded with the matching edition.
So this conversation really boils down to PC users. And the point with x32 processors newer than 2006 is pretty much valid.
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Im not completely clued up with the Apple SoC /iOS setup, but if its like WOW64 there will be a slight performance hit, but barely measurable let alone noticeable on todays systems.
Im curious as to why you think of SoCs as a non issue given that more devices are probably shifted with them than not, many of these devices directly replacing trad desktop/notebooks
SoC is everything when it comes to future home computing, and the 64 bit question will rear its ugly head again then, but I think we can all agree that having a 64bit system alone does not mean its quicker except in extreme circumstances or when excessive amounts of memory is needed and the 4GB limit is met.
I consider SoCs a non-issue because you do not have a choice. You can not build a PC using a SoC. Hence the issue presented by this thread (choose between x32 and x64) is a non-issue in the SoC world.
the x32 Atom SoCs come on tablets wth x32 windows and you can not replace that SoC with an I5 x64 SoC you find on Surface Pro, hence the discussion on this topic is kinda useless.
I've seen lots of ppl running x32 wndows on systsems with 8-12GB of RAM or x64 on systems with just 1 but this never happened on a SoC based device xD
As for performance, I also believe the x64 CPUs can support more cores than the usuall x32.
But...
x32 CPU running native x32 code will be faster than an x64 CPU running x32 code
x64 CPU running native x64 code is around just as fast as x32 running x32. There are small diffreneces in performance (you can try it out with simple programs with visual studio and compile for different arhitectures), but nothing otherworldly, nowhere near "twice as fast" as apple claims it to be.
dazza9075 said:
Im not completely clued up with the Apple SoC /iOS setup, but if its like WOW64 there will be a slight performance hit, but barely measurable let alone noticeable on todays systems.
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Even if there is a performance hit, there is almost no downside to using a 64-bit OS for Apple because the CPU is based on ARMv8. Same goes for anyone else that uses the specification. All the better to future proof your platform now so that when mobile devices finally do need to address more than 4GB of RAM, there is only one (64-bit) OS instead of the two that Microsoft has to maintain and developers have to make two versions of software and drivers for.
Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 2.
JihadSquad said:
Even if there is a performance hit, there is almost no downside to using a 64-bit OS for Apple because the CPU is based on ARMv8. Same goes for anyone else that uses the specification. All the better to future proof your platform now so that when mobile devices finally do need to address more than 4GB of RAM, there is only one (64-bit) OS instead of the two that Microsoft has to maintain and developers have to make two versions of software and drivers for.
Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 2.
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Sorry, but your post makes no sense.
JihadSquad said:
Even if there is a performance hit, there is almost no downside to using a 64-bit OS for Apple because the CPU is based on ARMv8. Same goes for anyone else that uses the specification. All the better to future proof your platform now so that when mobile devices finally do need to address more than 4GB of RAM, there is only one (64-bit) OS instead of the two that Microsoft has to maintain and developers have to make two versions of software and drivers for.
Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 2.
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I'm with mcosmin222, your post makes no sense. Being ARMv8 means that there is no downside to being 64 bit? The hell are you smoking, decreased 32 bit performance and double RAM usage for 64 bit software on a device still using the same 1gb of RAM as its 32 bit predecessor, MAJOR downside.
Also for most developers there is no extra maintenance for 64 bit and 32 bit OSes. Seriously, most of the time its as simply as changing one setting when building, sometimes more effort is required but usually less than is required to simultaneously support iPad and iPhone in an iOS app (they dont scale well automatically all the time which is why on windows systems and my brief android foray I design with variable screen sizes in mind). Drivers are an issue yes, but most developers are not driver developers, even then 32 bit windows user mode drivers work fine in 64 bit windows, its only kernel mode drivers which require native 32 vs 64 changes.
mcosmin222 said:
I consider SoCs a non-issue -snipped at somewhat random points for size-orldly, nowhere near "twice as fast" as apple claims it to be.
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mcosmin222 said:
Sorry, but your post makes no sense.
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Slight hypocrisy there.
It is debated by some whether the atom is a SoC at all, intel do not claim it to be with the exception of a few models which do indeed have more peripherals built into the chip itself than their counterparts, my view is that they are increasingly moving towards a SoC design with the only major external components now being the RAM and storage (of which the typical SoC usually has RAM and sometimes storage internally). There is not a single intel core series processor which is a SoC.
32 bit windows with more than 4gb of RAM I find hilarious, I bought a second hand PC running windows XP 32 bit on 12gb of RAM.... Loaded my copy of windows 7 64 bit onto it immediately. Quite a few people dont seem to realise that the 4gb ram limit also counts video ram too.
I dont know about core count difference for x86_32 vs x86_64. I saw intel demo'ed a prototype 80 core - single CPU (x86 systems can distinguish between having 2 dual core CPU's on one motherboard and 1 quad core CPU) using intel atom 32 bit cores. In the consumer electronics market, 80 cores would be unheard of. Even the server market probably doesn't go beyond 80 very often. Super computers dont always use x86 but may well hit the core limit if there is one
The one place where your suggestion of using visual studio to show 64 bit vs 32 bit differences would really show the advantage of 64 bit is when your software uses a long rather than an int. Int is a 32 bit number. Long is 64 bit. 32 bit processor can't handle longs natively so has to have additional software overhead for longs. Compile for a 64 bit processor and you can use a long instead. Float vs Double I have heard people saying makes a difference but I believe most compilers simply use the x87 math processor embedded within all x86 chips which I think handles doubles natively on both 32 bit and 64 bit x86 processors.
I dislike apple, but I have found one place which justifies the double performance claims. They claimed double performance for the entire SoC as a whole not just the CPU. ARM NEON has had a performance bump in ARMv8. The A7 chip also has an upgraded GPU over the A6X (PowerVR quad core still though so hardly cutting edge). There is also the matter of which benchmarks they use and whether the benchmark does use any 64 bit math. Benchmarks are of course not always indicative of real world performance and for the most part you will *not* see a difference on the iPhone 5S.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
I'm with mcosmin222, your post makes no sense. Being ARMv8 means that there is no downside to being 64 bit? The hell are you smoking, decreased 32 bit performance and double RAM usage for 64 bit software on a device still using the same 1gb of RAM as its 32 bit predecessor, MAJOR downside.
Also for most developers there is no extra maintenance for 64 bit and 32 bit OSes. Seriously, most of the time its as simply as changing one setting when building, sometimes more effort is required but usually less than is required to simultaneously support iPad and iPhone in an iOS app (they dont scale well automatically all the time which is why on windows systems and my brief android foray I design with variable screen sizes in mind). Drivers are an issue yes, but most developers are not driver developers, even then 32 bit windows user mode drivers work fine in 64 bit windows, its only kernel mode drivers which require native 32 vs 64 changes.
Slight hypocrisy there.
It is debated by some whether the atom is a SoC at all, intel do not claim it to be with the exception of a few models which do indeed have more peripherals built into the chip itself than their counterparts, my view is that they are increasingly moving towards a SoC design with the only major external components now being the RAM and storage (of which the typical SoC usually has RAM and sometimes storage internally). There is not a single intel core series processor which is a SoC.
32 bit windows with more than 4gb of RAM I find hilarious, I bought a second hand PC running windows XP 32 bit on 12gb of RAM.... Loaded my copy of windows 7 64 bit onto it immediately. Quite a few people dont seem to realise that the 4gb ram limit also counts video ram too.
I dont know about core count difference for x86_32 vs x86_64. I saw intel demo'ed a prototype 80 core - single CPU (x86 systems can distinguish between having 2 dual core CPU's on one motherboard and 1 quad core CPU) using intel atom 32 bit cores. In the consumer electronics market, 80 cores would be unheard of. Even the server market probably doesn't go beyond 80 very often. Super computers dont always use x86 but may well hit the core limit if there is one
The one place where your suggestion of using visual studio to show 64 bit vs 32 bit differences would really show the advantage of 64 bit is when your software uses a long rather than an int. Int is a 32 bit number. Long is 64 bit. 32 bit processor can't handle longs natively so has to have additional software overhead for longs. Compile for a 64 bit processor and you can use a long instead. Float vs Double I have heard people saying makes a difference but I believe most compilers simply use the x87 math processor embedded within all x86 chips which I think handles doubles natively on both 32 bit and 64 bit x86 processors.
I dislike apple, but I have found one place which justifies the double performance claims. They claimed double performance for the entire SoC as a whole not just the CPU. ARM NEON has had a performance bump in ARMv8. The A7 chip also has an upgraded GPU over the A6X (PowerVR quad core still though so hardly cutting edge). There is also the matter of which benchmarks they use and whether the benchmark does use any 64 bit math. Benchmarks are of course not always indicative of real world performance and for the most part you will *not* see a difference on the iPhone 5S.
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I think you need to defrag your HDD or something, your browser doesn't display info properly anymore.
Intel Atom is a SoC actually.
You still don't seem to get the idea behind the SoC propblem: it is a non-issue because you can not choose between x32 and x64 windows, as it comes preloaded (I supposed you could change it but for 99% of people that is impossible), hence why i do not consider them in the same category as socketed CPUs.
Do you understand it now?
mcosmin222 said:
I think you need to defrag your HDD or something, your browser doesn't display info properly anymore.
Intel Atom is a SoC actually.
You still don't seem to get the idea behind the SoC propblem: it is a non-issue because you can not choose between x32 and x64 windows, as it comes preloaded (I supposed you could change it but for 99% of people that is impossible), hence why i do not consider them in the same category as socketed CPUs.
Do you understand it now?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Atom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom_(system_on_chip)
Intel atom system on chip is a subset of the atom lineup.
And I do get the idea behind the SoC chip. It is you that cannot get it through your skull that a SoC still has a CPU within it and is therefore still a 32 bit CPU. It doesnt matter whether the user can choose 32 vs 64 bit software on it, its still a 32 bit CPU manufactured post 2006 as you claim does not exist and frankly your original statement cannot be more wrong.
Also, hardly difficult to obtain and these are still manufactured to this day: http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...=sGAEpiMZZMsk5yEqv3Bk8TNKQ0wAJ52zqlsFfvN/xPc=
Why hasn't 64 bit completely absorbed 32 bit and just become the norm?
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Jay794 said:
Why hasn't 64 bit completely absorbed 32 bit and just become the norm?
Sent from my GT-I9505 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
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64 bit = more transistors = more cost, power consumption and larger size in theory. In practise, douchebaggery and the prevalence of 32 bit machines in embedded usage.
Bay trail is moving towards 64 bit for intel atom. Core whatever series CPU's are all 64 bit. I think most of the AMD processors aimed at consumer usage are 64 bit (they manufacture 32 bit SoC's for industrial automation and a few other embedded tasks much to mcosmin's amusement no doubt).
VIA I thought only did 32 bit but apparently their more recent core design is 64 bit capable. They still pitch their older cores at embedded markets though, they have next to zero consumer presence. VIA's chips tend to be tucked within machines in factories or vehicle computers or perhaps the cable box for your TV if you have one (but usually MIPS or ARM appear here, x86 has been used) etc rather than thrown into an off the shelf laptop (although HP released what we would now consider a netbook with a VIA C7). Embedded machines dont always benefit from 32 bit processing (depends on the machine, a CNC mill might be fine with 32 bit maths, the flight computers about something akin to a predator drone might absolutely need 64 bit math), in the event they dont need 64 bit math then using 64 bit software would double the RAM requirement which would then mean needing double the RAM (many machines running a fixed task have only the amount of RAM they require) which then increases cost of the machine.
The atom is probably the biggest use of 32 bit only chips for consumers, with bay trail coming out I think we are reaching the end of 32 bit x86 operating systems for consumers. The embedded market is either going to have to rely on 32 bit chips still being available for them (they are for the forseeable future), or simply run a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit chip or double the RAM they install or something.
all buddies here at xda i would like to know what is the difference between 64bit os and 32 bit os. and pros and cons of each os.
as i am seeing some development of 64 bit os for redmi 2/prime
please kindly reply those who knows.
note that i googled but didn't got satisfactory answer.
For 2GB (Prime) variant it's good. For 1GB, it's a hell.
Explain:
The 64-bit OS is based on ARMv8 Aarch64, with many improvements in instruction set, specially the SIMD instructions and about memory access. But it consumes more RAM. I flashed the MIUI8 arm64 in my Redmi 2 1GB. The whole system is blazing fast, stronger in benchmarks, snappy as ever. But after installing some apps, the device becomes slow because low RAM.
Maybe with a lightweight AOSP rom could take away the RAM usage issue and receive the full benefits of the newer arch. While it doesnt occurs, I'm very satisfied with my RR 5.8.2. Stable, snappy and fully customized.
Dan_Jacques said:
For 2GB (Prime) variant it's good. For 1GB, it's a hell.
Explain:
The 64-bit OS is based on ARMv8 Aarch64, with many improvements in instruction set, specially the SIMD instructions and about memory access. But it consumes more RAM. I flashed the MIUI8 arm64 in my Redmi 2 1GB. The whole system is blazing fast, stronger in benchmarks, snappy as ever. But after installing some apps, the device becomes slow because low RAM.
Maybe with a lightweight AOSP rom could take away the RAM usage issue and receive the full benefits of the newer arch. While it doesnt occurs, I'm very satisfied with my RR 5.8.2. Stable, snappy and fully customized.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
is that rr 5.8.2 64bit and with working volte?
Dan_Jacques said:
For 2GB (Prime) variant it's good. For 1GB, it's a hell.e
Explain:
The 64-bit OS is based on ARMv8 Aarch64, with many improvements in instruction set, specially the SIMD instructions and about memory access. But it consumes more RAM. I flashed the MIUI8 arm64 in my Redmi 2 1GB. The whole system is blazing fast, stronger in benchmarks, snappy as ever. But after installing some apps, the device becomes slow because low RAM.
Maybe with a lightweight AOSP rom could take away the RAM usage issue and receive the full benefits of the newer arch. While it doesnt occurs, I'm very satisfied with my RR 5.8.2. Stable, snappy and fully customized.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are wrong, also there is no performance improvements from 32 to 64bits (maybe better ram management and new cpu instruction set avaliable), I also seem to have the Redmi 2 with 1gb of ram, from all the 3 64 bits rom I noticed no performance decrease, maybe a improvement on the nougat arm64, I'm getting over 31000 on antutu, 560 and 1600 on geekbench, but arm64 is really nice to redmi 2, since it will unlock the support for some apps and games, also a prolonged support to when the normal 32bit arm art no longer be supported (just a theory of course).
TecnoTailsPlays said:
You are wrong, also there is no performance improvements from 32 to 64bits (maybe better ram management and new cpu instruction set avaliable), I also seem to have the Redmi 2 with 1gb of ram, from all the 3 64 bits rom I noticed no performance decrease, maybe a improvement on the nougat arm64, I'm getting over 31000 on antutu, 560 and 1600 on geekbench, but arm64 is really nice to redmi 2, since it will unlock the support for some apps and games, also a prolonged support to when the normal 32bit arm art no longer be supported (just a theory of course).
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Click to collapse
I saw performance improvements between MIUI8 32 x MIUI8 64. Look: there is really many changes in floating point instructions (arm64 supports double-precision fp, for example) and memory access. The gap is around 10~20%. I saw it in another phone, Doogee X5 MAX Pro. After Aug/16 the stock ROM was converted to x32. And performance decreased slightly. Antutu score decreased arount 15%. So, arm64 have performance improvements over arm32.
Dan_Jacques said:
I saw performance improvements between MIUI8 32 x MIUI8 64. Look: there is really many changes in floating point instructions (arm64 supports double-precision fp, for example) and memory access. The gap is around 10~20%. I saw it in another phone, Doogee X5 MAX Pro. After Aug/16 the stock ROM was converted to x32. And performance decreased slightly. Antutu score decreased arount 15%. So, arm64 have performance improvements over arm32.
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Are you using another device? from what I know this is redmi 2, we have a different source from other devices, and don't trust benchmarks, they are always wrong, a 64bit OS for redmi 2 is a good deal, there aren't fps improvements, but overall ram management, smoothness, and a really high decrease in stutters is very visible.
TecnoTailsPlays said:
Are you using another device? from what I know this is redmi 2, we have a different source from other devices, and don't trust benchmarks, they are always wrong, a 64bit OS for redmi 2 is a good deal, there aren't fps improvements, but overall ram management, smoothness, and a really high decrease in stutters is very visible.
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Click to collapse
What ROM are you speaking? I flashed in the past and the RAM management was terrible. The phone froze for 10 seconds to become "live" again. There is a AOSP/LOS based ROM build in ARM64 to make real-world tests, or have we only MIUI one?
About another device: was the only time I could see side-by-side the ARMv8 and ARMv7 performance in the same setup. And ARMv8 aarch64 was faster, snappier. Not only in benchmarks, but in real-world scenario
Dan_Jacques said:
What ROM are you speaking? I flashed in the past and the RAM management was terrible. The phone froze for 10 seconds to become "live" again. There is a AOSP/LOS based ROM build in ARM64 to make real-world tests, or have we only MIUI one?
About another device: was the only time I could see side-by-side the ARMv8 and ARMv7 performance in the same setup. And ARMv8 aarch64 was faster, snappier. Not only in benchmarks, but in real-world scenario
Click to expand...
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Compare am64 caf-aosp vs arm caf-aosp
TecnoTailsPlays said:
Compare am64 caf-aosp vs arm caf-aosp
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Click to collapse
I'll do it.
Where is the ARM64 CAF-AOSP? There is only the ARM one in the thread
Dan_Jacques said:
I'll do it.
Where is the ARM64 CAF-AOSP? There is only the ARM one in the thread
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Click to collapse
Search on the comments Pirej posted a link for a 64 rom
Turns out Lenovo thought it would be a great idea to use 32bit for any reason.
realy? yet still this question?
LionLorena said:
Turns out Lenovo thought it would be a great idea to use 32bit for any reason.
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Wrong area to post this. 64 bit? Get a nexus.
Sent from my Moto G4 using Tapatalk
Why is this so absurd to consider? The device have a 64 bit CPU.
Why not use 64bit Android.
LionLorena said:
Why is this so absurd to consider? The device have a 64 bit CPU.
Why not use 64bit Android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you had searched for a little bit, you would have found that the answer was already made many times and answered in detail.
LionLorena said:
Why is this so absurd to consider? The device have a 64 bit CPU.
Why not use 64bit Android.
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Click to collapse
Because there's effectively no point. The SD617 has a 32-bit width data bus- a 64-bit ROM would actually yield less performance.
Why do you want a 64-bit ROM anyway? There's absolutely nothing 32-bit Android has to offer over 64-bit Android absurdly high RAM amounts (which you'll never find in a budget phone).
Some software I wanna use is 64bit only.
And what would be "absurdly high"?
Because from what I know the advised ram for 64bit is 4gb.
LionLorena said:
Some software I wanna use is 64bit only.
And what would be "absurdly high"?
Because from what I know the advised ram for 64bit is 4gb.
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Click to collapse
No use of 64 bit unless RAM > 4 GB. Beyond 4GB is the point where 64 bit arch starts.
Moreover does moto even release 64 bit source? I heard something similar in the potter forum.
tywinlannister7 said:
No use of 64 bit unless RAM > 4 GB. Beyond 4GB is the point where 64 bit arch starts.
Moreover does moto even release 64 bit source? I heard something similar in the potter forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually 3.7gb (give it or take) is the limit of 32bit.
So any value over that is valid for 64bit
And to be fair the minimum ram for 64bit would be 2gb.
They say 4gb because is where it matters most.
Since 32 can only deal with 4gb.
1 for kernel and 3 for application.
RAM consumption is huge on 64 bits system, take a look to the Nexus 5X... For an Android device running a 64 bits system you need at least 3 GB of RAM, and also, why do you want a 64 bits system if a 32 bits system offers better performance? The 64 bits system just has new type of instructions that are only for more complex calculations that not even the average user will use
LionLorena said:
And to be fair the minimum ram for 64bit would be 2gb.
They say 4gb because is where it matters most.
Since 32 can only deal with 4gb.
1 for kernel and 3 for application.
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Click to collapse
What software do you need to run on Android that requires 64-bit?
joeeboogz said:
Wrong place to post
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Oh, I'm deeply sorry, it sounded appropriate to post under its own device category.
Johann0109 said:
RAM consumption is huge on 64 bits system, take a look to the Nexus 5X... For an Android device running a 64 bits system you need at least 3 GB of RAM, and also, why do you want a 64 bits system if a 32 bits system offers better performance? The 64 bits system just has new type of instructions that are only for more complex calculations that not even the average user will use
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I need it to run 64bit only software.
negusp said:
What software do you need to run on Android that requires 64-bit?
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Dolphin
Nintendo GameCube / Wii Emulator
Thread cleaned of rather sad tripe.
Keep it civil please...
LenAsh said:
Thread cleaned of rather sad tripe.
Keep it civil please...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks !
LionLorena said:
Dolphin
Nintendo GameCube / Wii Emulator
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In all seriousness, even if a 64-bit ROM were ported to the G4 the SD617 inside would struggle heavily.
You need at least an SD801 to run Dolphin anywhere near smoothly.
negusp said:
In all seriousness, even if a 64-bit ROM were ported to the G4 the SD617 inside would struggle heavily.
You need at least an SD801 to run Dolphin anywhere near smoothly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hm I see.
Well, I've figured since it was to run some 2D title I would do fine.
Since I don't have a very powerful computer either (dual core i3 3217u) and it run said title at 60fps where other 3D games won't pass 10fps.
But that's expected I guess, I think it's time to move on.
I wonder if the Moto Z is 64bit since it is SD820
Didn't yu yureka have a 64 bit is?
Recently, I saw, Lenovo K6P(karate) Which Has 32bit Support from OEM, Developer Moved to support 64Bit For It.
Can't it be done with Other Devices As well(Athene)??
https://forum.xda-developers.com/k6-power/development/rom-aicp-lenovo-k6-power-note-t3689009
i think this is the one you're talking about...
https://forum.xda-developers.com/k6-power/development/rom-aospextended-rom-v4-4-lenovo-k6-t3637158/page15
I'm talking about this.
Here's your answer.
Unless you have MORE than 4GB of RAM, using a 64 bit OS on our CPU's will just slow them down and use more space (storage and memory).
Qualcomm's ARM 64 bit is not like Intel/AMD.
It won't Slow Down or affect Performance. In 64bit, with Android 6.0+, Android Compiles apps Library Faster on 64Bit and when It SOC Support, We can Use it to churn out.
It seems ever since 64bit roms were possible for Athene, all maintainers are only building 64bit Oreo roms, rather than 32bit. But what is the real benefit of this? From what I've noticed, 64bit roms have more issues than 32bit roms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the info I've gathered:
32bit rom bugs:
Camera
Torch
64bit ROM bugs:
Camera
Torch
GPS
System UI lags
Video recording
Not to mention 64bit roms have more ram consumption, which isn't good for those who have the 2GB version of Athene.
I think maintainers should continue building 32bit versions of their roms along with 64bit to give users more options. Just a thought.
There is absolutely no reason why a 64 bit Android should be on our devices. Will not add any performance, the memory is max 4GB (3.6GB available with 32 bit), 64 bit native apps take more space in memory, CPU is not fully equipped for 64 bit OS (32 bit memory bus)...
Skeptico said:
It seems ever since 64bit roms were possible for Athene, all maintainers are only building 64bit Oreo roms, rather than 32bit. But what is the real benefit of this? From what I've noticed, 64bit roms have more issues than 32bit roms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the info I've gathered:
32bit rom bugs:
Camera
Torch
64bit ROM bugs:
Camera
Torch
GPS
System UI lags
Video recording
Not to mention 64bit roms have more ram consumption, which isn't good for those who have the 2GB version of Athene.
I think maintainers should continue building 32bit versions of their roms along with 64bit to give users more options. Just a thought.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The point is: most maintains uses one device tree for 64bit which will be developed.(correct me if I'm wrong).
So if the 32bit source won't be developed, you must switch to the other one.
ok, but 64bits mainteners are on the same stage: no progress.
lot of 64bits roms are compiled without any debugging.
murigny64 said:
ok, but 64bits mainteners are on the same stage: no progress.
lot of 64bits roms are compiled without any debugging.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's what I wrote: they use the same device tree/source hence the bugs are present on nearly all 8.1 builds and. You need to fix the camera issues in the device source not the rom source as its a problem of not available drivers and you need to shim it.
---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 PM ----------
SoNic67 said:
There is absolutely no reason why a 64 bit Android should be on our devices. Will not add any performance, the memory is max 4GB (3.6GB available with 32 bit), 64 bit native apps take more space in memory, CPU is not fully equipped for 64 bit OS (32 bit memory bus)...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
People demand it permanently, that's the real reason for it.
strongst said:
People demand it permanently, that's the real reason for it.
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Click to collapse
This is the most vital reason. If perfected you get portrait mode which most people will be crazy about
64 (bit) is double the value of 32 (bit), so it must be far better, faster, sexier, whatever... :silly:
thorin0815 said:
64 (bit) is double the value of 32 (bit), so it must be far better, faster, sexier, whatever... :silly:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah another reason.... Like Megapixel in case of quality....
You can use marshmallow. Bug free, 32 bit, torch works.
32bit was rather good since the only plus i see is Google camera which i don't really care. Bugs could be fixed on 64bit which isn't a issue. But the thing is 32BIT is dying, all oems are going through the trend of 64bit and the support for 32bit is slowly dead.
64bit is the way to go.
Orelse you guys should be on Nougat.
Just because marketing wise it's successful, it doesn't mean it will be better.
Especially when Moto doesn't develop 64 bit drivers.
But yes, stupidity always wins in the end because it's unrelenting.
That's because the ROM "builders" are not technically aware imho or maybe they just want to ignore the facts.
Fact is, this device houses a 32 bit bus. Busses are responsible for transferring data signals. When you are using a 32 bit system, the data is transported in one go but in the case of 64 bit roms, the data has to be transported in 2 turns ie the latency gets doubled. More the latency, lesser responsive your system. Yes you can reduce the latency by overclocking the bus, but doing that can only get you max to max 10% efficiency, overall the system is still lagging by 40%. This might not be noticeable on 3gb+ variants because of the obvious reasons but it gets pretty evident in the versions having 2gb ram.
We cannot get over this hardware limitation no matter what. It would be utterly stupid to shift to 64 bit roms for this device. A 32bit ROM should outperform any 64bit ROM easily. That's just my 2 cents tho, I would any day prefer a 32 bit ROM over any other.
hell_lock said:
That's because the ROM "builders" are not technically aware imho or maybe they just want to ignore the facts.
Fact is, this device houses a 32 bit bus. Busses are responsible for transferring data signals. When you are using a 32 bit system, the data is transported in one go but in the case of 64 bit roms, the data has to be transported in 2 turns ie the latency gets doubled. More the latency, lesser responsive your system. Yes you can reduce the latency by overclocking the bus, but doing that can only get you max to max 10% efficiency, overall the system is still lagging by 40%. This might not be noticeable on 3gb+ variants because of the obvious reasons but it gets pretty evident in the versions having 2gb ram.
We cannot get over this hardware limitation no matter what. It would be utterly stupid to shift to 64 bit roms for this device. A 32bit ROM should outperform any 64bit ROM easily. That's just my 2 cents tho, I would any day prefer a 32 bit ROM over any other.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well hopefully most of the maintainers for our device read this, and then stop building 64bit ROMs. You've confirmed my suspicion that it's basically pointless.
Frostbite said:
You can use marshmallow. Bug free, 32 bit, torch works.
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Click to collapse
If there were security patches for it, I would love to do for sure!
You guys remember that discussion https://forum.xda-developers.com/moto-g4-plus/help/64bit-roms-t3634876 now it's known that there's no real benefit and more problems with 64bit :silly:
hell_lock said:
That's because the ROM "builders" are not technically aware imho or maybe they just want to ignore the facts.
Fact is, this device houses a 32 bit bus. Busses are responsible for transferring data signals. When you are using a 32 bit system, the data is transported in one go but in the case of 64 bit roms, the data has to be transported in 2 turns ie the latency gets doubled. More the latency, lesser responsive your system. Yes you can reduce the latency by overclocking the bus, but doing that can only get you max to max 10% efficiency, overall the system is still lagging by 40%. This might not be noticeable on 3gb+ variants because of the obvious reasons but it gets pretty evident in the versions having 2gb ram.
We cannot get over this hardware limitation no matter what. It would be utterly stupid to shift to 64 bit roms for this device. A 32bit ROM should outperform any 64bit ROM easily. That's just my 2 cents tho, I would any day prefer a 32 bit ROM over any other.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you have the data greater than the 32bit system instruction set, you have to run the cycle twice.
64Bit doesn't mean you everytime have to run the cycle twice Imo.
When it's needed, it's done.
krypticallusion said:
If you have the data greater than the 32bit system instruction set, you have to run the cycle twice.
64Bit doesn't mean you everytime have to run the cycle twice Imo.
When it's needed, it's done.
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Click to collapse
It's not about the data. A 64bit system uses 64 bits for referencing the memory. So when you're running any app or anything, the cpu has to wait twice the normal time to get the next instruction.
hell_lock said:
It's not about the data. A 64bit system uses 64 bits for referencing the memory. So when you're running any app or anything, the cpu has to wait twice the normal time to get the next instruction.
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Stay on N 32-bit and enjoy :')
Dreamstar said:
Stay on 32-bit and enjoy :')
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But look at the title of the thread: that's exactly the problem.
All those 32 bit ROMs are stalled, no security updates or development anymore ..
(Of course everybody is free to compile himself, I know).
Dreamstar said:
Stay on 32-bit and enjoy :')
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Click to collapse
If you and other maintainers would continue building 32bit Oreo ROMs, then sure. But no one is anymore...