I have started a dialog with Rogers whereby I am asking nicely for them to honor the licenses which are listed in:
[Home]->[Menu]->[Settings]->[About phone]->[Legal information]->[Open source licenses]
The first source code I have requested is for the file /kernel listed in the above mentioned [Open source licenses].
An email sent nearly 24 hours ago has not been acknowledged by Rogers, despite the fact that their Contact Us email portal indicated that I would receive an acknowledgement within 24 hours.
Consequently, I called Rogers and managed to get a Rogers representative to email me back indicating that next business day (Monday) s/he would try to point me to the right person within Rogers.
Let's see if we can change what shows up when you search "Open Source" on the Rogers web site:
http://www.rogers.com/web/Rogers.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=search&Ntt=Open+Source
erdroid said:
I have started a dialog with Rogers whereby I am asking nicely for them to honor the licenses which are listed in:
[Home]->[Menu]->[Settings]->[About phone]->[Legal information]->[Open source licenses]
The first source code I have requested is for the file /kernel listed in the above mentioned [Open source licenses].
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The actual kernel is written by HTC, but good idea, ask Rogers to point us in the right direction because we haven't gotten anywhere asking HTC directly.
Here's an update for you. I've been contacting HTC customer service for a month now, and I've had my issue escalated to a VP at HTC America. I relayed to him all the hassle I've been put through for something they're legally responsible to provide, and the story I heard is as such:
HTC was asked by Rogers to make some last minute changes, but they didn't specify what. They were also asked to withhold source code for reasons that HTC wouldn't comment on. Basically, the representative confirmed that Rogers specifically asked HTC to do this. So I had the issue escalated to a VP at HTC America. After a month of hassle, and the final escalation earlier this week, here is the email response I got back today from the VP today.
David,
Thank you very much for your note and more importantly, thank you for your business and loyalty to HTC products. We owe all of our success to you and customers like you. I also want to thank you for taking the time to write me personally and communicating specific areas where we can improve in our customer service. I will investigate the issue and get back to you by Tuesday, 7/28 at the latest. Additionally, I will have our Head of Customer Service drive our Call Centers to do a better job of communicating, particularly on this issue. My apologies for the time you've had to invest in this to date.
All the best,
Jason
Jason B. Mackenzie
Vice President, North America Region
E-Mail: (Removed, but not hard to find)
So while it isn't "source code in my hand", it's at least *something*. I'll provide more info as it becomes available to me for sure.
Wow, bullet dodging everywhere. I talked to some folks from Google and they don't have the code we are looking for, that's for certain. HTC blames Google, Google blames HTC, HTC blames Rogers. How complex is this problem really? It's probably 5 lines of code that they changed. We need to get past their buffer-wall of customer support and talk to someone in engineering.
PhaseBurn said:
HTC was asked by Rogers to ... withhold source code ...confirmed that Rogers specifically asked HTC to do this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So Rogers asked HTC to break the law and they complied?
Can we get this confirmed in writing? An email (with headers) from an official at HTC stating that such a request was made regarding kernel source would help. If we do that, we would have the silver bullet we need to go after robbers AND htc in civil court -- think class action, and we should get some major kernel contributors and open source advocates on board-- I'm sure that LOTS of people would LOVE to take up this cause.
My prediction: if there was a class action civil case organized naming rogers and htc as defendants, htc will fold and hand out the source, probably quickly. Rogers... maybe not because they're bastards.
I'm pretty sure they are having some meetings about that internally at HTC right now because I inquired about the source from HTC 3 days ago and they still haven't replied to me, not even a canned response. I'm pretty sure they are investigating right now how they can give us source while not giving away whatever they are trying to hide.
lbcoder said:
So Rogers asked HTC to break the law and they complied?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, I don't believe this is a violation of the GPL, and some quick googling tells me that the FSF agrees (see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowNDA)
Even though Rogers would be in violation for distributing a modified kernel without source, HTC would not be.
Northsun said:
No, I don't believe this is a violation of the GPL, and some quick googling tells me that the FSF agrees (see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowNDA)
Even though Rogers would be in violation for distributing a modified kernel without source, HTC would not be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're correct, and unless somebody who has code in the linux kernel they're shipping wants to file suit, we can't go after them legally as we aren't representative of somebody being damaged by their copyright infringement, despite that it hurts us. Stupid copyright law, even under the GPL, requires an author of the material to go after the company.
HTC designed the phone, and customized it for Rogers. I'm not honestly sure who bears the legal responsibility of releasing the source code for the GPL'd components, either Rogers or HTC, but one of them does and HTC is seemingly claiming responsibility for it.
Since you want email headers, here they are. Yes, I have blocked out email addresses (ONLY), as I don't need any more levels of spam nor does Mr. Mackenzie, I'm sure. I will post the full headers, unedited, in a .txt file somewhere if requested and link to it, I'm not trying to hide anything, I'm just not comfortable posting some things on public forums. I also did not disclose to Mr. Mackenzie that I'd be cross-posting his email reply anywhere, so the least I can do out of respect is not publicly post his email unless it's warranted.
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From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:12:05 -0700
Subject: RE: HTC Dream
Thread-Topic: HTC Dream
Thread-Index: AcoLLP63oOKwvepeQNu7rNvgHFsdFAABQdpw
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References: <[email protected]>
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Something tells me that the software they are referring to is NOT the kernel and is most likely the custom apps and other software on the device. Your VP probably has no idea at all what a kernel is, especially if he wants to refer you to customer support. This should have been sent straight to their engineering staff. If you can get them to clarify this, maybe we should send the story to some huge site that loves this kind of stuff like Slashdot. Get the community nice and outraged
cyanogen said:
Something tells me that the software they are referring to is NOT the kernel and is most likely the custom apps and other software on the device. Your VP probably has no idea at all what a kernel is, especially if he wants to refer you to customer support. This should have been sent straight to their engineering staff. If you can get them to clarify this, maybe we should send the story to some huge site that loves this kind of stuff like Slashdot. Get the community nice and outraged
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh, I totally agree, and I sent a similar email to the VP of Engineering as well, but have not gotten a reply. In my email, I explained what a kernel was, and that the open source license in the Legal section of the device specifically covered /kernel which was all I wanted the source to. I'm not holding my breath I'll get something on the 28th besides a "we're still working on it" but at least it's something, and ultimately, I hope it does lead to the source we need. This is an excerpt of what I wrote to him, so I'm hoping that even if he doesn't understand it, it's enough for him to get over to the staff who does. I assumed that since it hasn't been released yet, it is likely NOT an Engineering decision, but being held up in Legal somewhere, which is why I went this route as well.
The code I'm asking for is specifically covered under the GNU GPL Open Source license agreement (there's an entry for /kernel specifically in the Legal section of my phone) that states all source code used to generate that file MUST be provided upon request (Section 3). All I am asking for is the kernel source code, nothing more, nothing less. I do fully understand that HTC has a lot of Android modifications that are not open source, or publicly available, but the /kernel file is explicitly required to have source code available as by the terms of the GNU GPL.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At least as a VP, he's in a position to comment and help if he so chooses. We'll see where it goes, all I can do...
I'm sure the FSF wouldn't mind knowing what's going on. ESR loves a good shuffle and the FSF COULD get a core member of the dev team or maybe a contributor or even Linus etc to bring it to the attention of Rogers and HTC that there is grounds to pursue further action of they remain non compliant.
I'm just saying there might be other avenues once we've seen how this one plays out. I'd hate to kick a wasp nest if there are valid and honest attempts to rectify the situation calmly. It could very well be just a case of honest ignorance that needs to be schooled back to a level of understanding
SpEnTBoY said:
I'm sure the FSF wouldn't mind knowing what's going on. ESR loves a good shuffle and the FSF COULD get a core member of the dev team or maybe a contributor or even Linus etc to bring it to the attention of Rogers and HTC that there is grounds to pursue further action of they remain non compliant.
I'm just saying there might be other avenues once we've seen how this one plays out. I'd hate to kick a wasp nest if there are valid and honest attempts to rectify the situation calmly. It could very well be just a case of honest ignorance that needs to be schooled back to a level of understanding
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's exactly why I haven't contacted them yet, and nobody (that I know of) is considering a lawsuit. I'm certainly not. If my attempts to get through to this VP fail, I have a few other contacts I can put pressure on to get HTC to provide it. Turning it over to the FSF and communities like Slashdot are an option I have considered, and may do at some point if HTC stops acting in good faith, but for now I believe they're either acting in good faith at the higher levels (the email reply from the VP confirms this IMO) or, really good at blowing smoke up my ass. Either way, I'll tolerate for now and have faith.
We totally have to consider that big companies like HTC need some time to turn around so let's all wait patiently for that 28th date and see what comes out of it. Then we can decide where to take this further, thanks alot PhaseBurn, maybe something will come out of this
hellfenix said:
We totally have to consider that big companies like HTC need some time to turn around so let's all wait patiently for that 28th date and see what comes out of it. Then we can decide where to take this further, thanks alot PhaseBurn, maybe something will come out of this
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No problem. Technical support is officially a dead end for this route, too. I just got a voicemail back from HTC's advanced support department saying "Technical Support does not have any way to distribute that [the Roger's kernel source] at the moment, so we've asked for our headquarters to weigh in and see what their official response is." They went on to say I've been put on a tracking list for when they do have their answer from headquarters, and when they have a response from HQ, they'll contact me when they have the official answer. So at least we know bugging tech support about it won't get us anywhere, but it will continue to draw attention to the issue at least... And yes, I have the VM saved as a .wav file just in case it's needed...
HQ would be China (Or Taiwan?) and I'm pretty sure they are the one with the goods so this is good enough news.
HQ is either Houstin, Texas, where HTC America is located, or, Taiwan, where HTC's world wide HQ is...
The HTC Dream platform was designed by HTC Taiwan, and released to HTC America and HTC Europe for sales and support, so I'm not sure if it'd be HTC America or HTC Worldwide that has the code for the Rogers version of the device - there are subtle hardware differences between that device, and the other HTC Dreams released world-wide. I don't know to what extent HTC America and HTC Europe have engineering departments of their own, for instance. If I had to guess, I'd say it'd be HTC Taiwan that has the code we're in need of, and is the group that engineered the Rogers Dream/Magic platforms specifically. Of course that's just speculation on my part. I'm sure you all can speculate as well as I can, I've posted pretty much all I have, and right now, I'm just waiting until the 28th for a reply. I'll post what I get when I get it...
So I got my reply from Jason at HTC just a few minutes ago.
The news is good - very good, but will require some patience...
David,
Thanks for your patience. As a follow-up to our last exchange I have done some research and found the following. As you noted, the Linux kernel in the Rogers version of the HTC Dream and Magic is slightly modified from the standard Android kernel - and we fully understand that granting access to this source code is important to you AND the developer community. Our team is currently putting the proper systems in place on our website to ensure that we have a robust, reliable platform for sharing specific Linux kernels. We expect that this will be in place by the first week of August on the htc..com website. I have asked Hsiao-wen Lin (who heads up my Product Management team) to personally e-mail you the link as soon as it's available). Additionally, from your email, we realize that our customer support team was not completely up to speed on this issue, and we are relaying the necessary information so that they can provide a more informed response to other inquiries like yours. We strive to deliver best-in-class service to all of our stakeholders, so we thank you for bringing this to our attention.
Thanks again for your business!
Jason
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So another 2 weeks. I'll post the link as soon as I get it, but at least we have our answer. They will be releasing it.
... did everyone else smile significantly when they read this? I love it when people and companies just 'get it', even if not every link in the chain is up to date. Great news and a serious dept of gratitude for doing the leg work PB!!
Wow, so basically they just didn't think about it and/or waited for someone to ask for it before setting up something on the website. HTC is playing it very safe and I can't blame them.
That is fantastic news, first week of August happens to be next week so it's not that bad of a wait, especially if they intend to implement some sort of source control system on their website.
Hopefully the sources will be integrated in the main Android Kernel assuming they were actually useful and not only meant to block us.
Wow, that's great. Good job and thanks.
Samsung Cares confirms Ice Cream Sandwich for SGH-T849?!
Here's a copy of the transcript from my chat with Samsung Cares this evening-
General Info
Chat start time May 21, 2012 7:42:37 PM EST
Chat end time May 21, 2012 7:57:25 PM EST
Duration (actual chatting time) 00:14:48
Operator Daniel
Chat Transcript
info: Please wait for a Samsung Agent to respond.
info: You are now chatting with 'Daniel'. There will be a brief survey at the end of our chat to share feedback on my performance today.
info: Your Issue ID for this chat is XXXXXXXXXXXXX
Daniel: Hi, thank you for contacting Samsung Technical Support. How may I help you today?
Daniel: We have not heard from you. Do you wish to continue the chat?
Visitor: Hi, I was wondering if an update from android 2.2 to a newer version will be made available for my sgh-t849?
Daniel: I understand that you want to update your tab. Is that correct?
Visitor: yes
Daniel: Thank you.
Daniel: May I know the model number of your Tab. It is provided on the back of the Tab.
Visitor: SGH T849
Daniel: Thank you.
Daniel: Would you mind holding 3 minutes while I gather the required information on your request?
Visitor: sure
Daniel: Thank you.
Visitor: hello?
Daniel: Thank you for holding.
Daniel: I see that your device is on the latest version update.
Daniel: There is no latest update released yet for your device.
Daniel: However, When the update is released it would be notified on the website; I suggest you please check the Samsung website periodically.
Visitor: are there any plans for gingerbread in the future?
Visitor: tmobile tab is only major carrier not updated
Daniel: Yes, The Ice Cream Sandwich update is planned for the device, but we exactly do not know the details regarding the release
Daniel: Please be rest assured that the update is planned for your device. but unfortunately, we do not have the release dates with us.
Visitor: Ok thanks
Daniel: You're welcome. Is there anything else I can assist you with?
Visitor: no thanks
Daniel: It was a pleasure assisting you. Thank you for contacting Samsung Technical Support. If you have a minute, please click on the blue “X close” button to receive a transcript of your chat and fill out a brief survey to help us serve you better. Have a wonderful day!
info: Chat session has been terminated by the Samsung Agent.
And I'm a Chinese jet pilot..O
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA
Nah, its obviously just a mistake on the reps part. Probably got used to referring to updates as ICS but you was asking for GB.
You should have asked for clarification whether it was GB or ICS.
Unfortunately i don't have a great message count here, but you can check my record in biggest computing forum in Russia - 4PDA
I want to share with you my very unsuccessful experience with that company called Sunchip!
In december 2014 i bought CX-929 RK3288 android stick from them. It arrived pretty fast with DHL and pre-sale communication was also very fast.
In January 2015 i contacted Sunchip to order another unit for my aunt as a gift for her birthday, and again everything was very quick and unit arrived just in time..
Ok, so now the issue. My own unit (the one i bought in late december) just got broken. No signal. it was recognising Ok by PC, i could flash by backup files but it was something hardware related, probably HDMI.
So i contacted Sunchip about my problem, and that where the problems begun.. First of all communication speed has drastically fall. I roughly got replies once in couple of days.. Then, after we agreed that i need to send my unit to them for repair i been asked to cover both shipments to and from Sunchip! In my long years practice with China suppliers this is unusual request, especially when purchase been made just in less than a month prior to warranty cal! Only after my direct email to CEO of sunchip, they accepted one way delivery payment! So i sent my package to china with registered mail on 08.02.2015 and it's arrived in China pretty quick. Unfortunately it fall on New year hollidays in China, so i been forced to wait untill sunchip will back to work on 27.02.2015 as per Mr. Kobe Chen words.. here is the quote :
Hi Jacob,
Well noted, we are on Chinese new year holidays and will be back to office on Feb 27th, we will inform you when we receive the package.
Thanks.
Regards,
Kobe
发件人： Jacob
发送时间： 2015-02-17 01:14:13
收件人： 'Kobe Chen'
抄送： [email protected]
主题： RE: RE: dissapointed customer
Dear Mr.Kobe,
It looks like my package should be with you soon .
Cheers,
Jacob
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't like to push on people so i waited patiently even untill 03.03.2015, but because nobody contacted me, i asked Suchip if there is any update ?
Hi Jacob,
Sorry, we haven't received the parcel now, I checked the status from the website as below, there was no any updates from FEB.22, it seems that we need to go to the post office to check further.
I'll update to you once available.
B.rgds
Rachel Chen
发件人： Jacob
发送时间： 2015-03-03 16:29
收件人： 'Kobe Chen'
抄送： [email protected]
主题： RE: RE: RE: dissapointed customer
Hello Mr. Kobe,
Can you give me please any update on my unit ?
Thanks,
Jacob
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That was the last email i got from Sunchip!!! Since then i didn't received anything from Suchip.
See below my last couple of emails that not received any attention even though they was sent directly to CEO and to Sales manager :
12.03.2015
Dear Mr. Aigo Xu , Mr. Kobe Chen,
Unfortunately it’s more than a month now since I wrote you my mail. I already sent my package and it’s arrived in China on 24.02.2015.
I am aware your company was on new year holidays until 27.02, but why we are now on 12.03.2015, 2 weeks after you fully back to work and nobody care to go to the office and collect my package ??
Please see below Rachel’s answer I received on 03.03.2015 :
Hi Jacob,
Sorry, we haven't received the parcel now, I checked the status from the website as below, there was no any updates from FEB.22, it seems that we need to go to the post office to check further.
I'll update to you once available.
It’s just unbelievable…
Jacob
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
last one today (17.03.2015), but i already lost my hope :
Dear Mr. Aigo Xu , Mr. Kobe Chen,
Can you please respond to my email ?
Many thanks,
Jacob
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So i paid 95$ to this company for the stick and 10$ for the repair shipment and i have nothing for now and it doesn't looks like they even care to wrote me couple of words.
So If you read this - Mr. Kobe, Mr. Aigo Xu or Mrs. Rachel, you can keep this unit with yourselves and save couple of bucks as you probably decided to do. I just hope that this message will be read by people who maybe thought to buy something from you and it will help them to save few bucks too...
Thank you for reading.
* For forum moderators. If i posted my message in wrong place please move it to correct one as it's important to make people aware about such cases. I can send all my conversations as a proof by request.