Database Users

Is it bad to constantly charge?

I tend to leave it on charge over night, then use it during the day (Browsing, comms etc..).
But then I charge it again halfway thru the day in case I run out of battery if I'm out late at night (more comms). Even if half left.
Then the cycle gets repeated..
Buy a spare battery or is this even more detrimental?

You have nothing to worry about as Li-Ion batteries (what the HD uses) do not suffer from the memory effect (which is what you're worried about). Top charging will have no negative affect on the battery. Whatever max battery loss that you might loose overtime is equivalent to if the battery was never used or used 100%-0% every time. Probably after a year or two you may want to get a new battery as the old will no longer hold quite as much charge as it did originally.

Interesting! i do the same thing Panos was worried about that.
not anymore
Paul.

I got my HD just before Christmas. Initially my battery life was very good lasting 2-3 days on one change.
For the past 3 months I put the phone on charge every night.
I've just had to buy a new battery; it now only holds charge for a few hours of continuous use and after an overnight charge only reaches about 80% capacity.
I know the boffins say Lithium Ion has no memory but my battery is trying to evolve and develop a memory

2-3days! u couldnt have been on the wap wap then?
or was u? mine lasts a day, thats going on wap for like 3 hours, calls, text.
Paul.

"but my battery is trying to evolve and develop a memory"
hehe
well maybe your batt was just ½ defect to begin with and then got worse and worse

So to confirm again, even if the HD reaches 50% battery life, i can recharge back to 100% with no problem?
Damn i've always heard it to be the other way round. I always hear about people complaining when they leave their nokia phones on charge overnight only to last less and less.

no matter what you do batteries get worse and worse
½defect poor ones sooner then good ones

thanks guys for response.
I've heard different methods but get confused with lith/li-onetc..
I've heard even with this type its best to run down completely once a while in order for it to "calibrate".
as long as its not too damaging I don't mind charging.
after all what's the point of such a kick-ass screen if I don't take advantage of it.. the whole day!

battery
ofcourse that ture HD battery is not that good as before previously it use to give 1.5 days. every day charge worries me aswell in first few months it use to give battery life equally even if its first 90-100% or 0-10% but now 20% battery is not realiable aswell.

panos123 said:
thanks guys for response.
I've heard different methods but get confused with lith/li-onetc..
I've heard even with this type its best to run down completely once a while in order for it to "calibrate".
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Click to collapse
That's Ni/Cd batteries you're thinking of.
Any lithium battery will hate you for running it down completely; you'll harm it and it won't "calibrate" because of it.

ive done the charging overnight method on pretty much all of my phones and have never noticed any dramatic change?i have been told you need to discharge the battery completely once in a while??

bonesy said:
i have been told you need to discharge the battery completely once in a while??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Didn't I answer this in the post before yours?
Don't completely drain a lithium battery.
A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its service life is dependent upon aging (shelf life). From time of manufacturing, regardless of whether it was charged or the number of charge/discharge cycles, the battery will decline slowly and predictably in "capacity". This means an older battery will not last as long as a new battery due solely to its age, unlike other batteries. This is due to an increase in internal resistance, which affects its ability to deliver current, thus the problem is more pronounced in high-current applications than low. This drawback is not widely published. However, as this capacity decreases over time, the time required to charge it also decreases proportionally. Also, high charge levels and elevated temperatures hasten permanent capacity loss for Lithium ion batteries. This heat is caused by the traditional carbon anode, which has been replaced with good results by Lithium titanate. Lithium titanate has been experimentally shown to drastically reduce the degenerative effects associated with charging including expansion and other factors.
At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion battery that is full most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly lose approximately 20% capacity per year. However, a battery in for example a poorly ventilated laptop may be subject to a prolonged exposure to much higher temperatures, which will significantly shorten its life. Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C (32 °F), 20% at 25 °C (77 °F), and 35% at 40 °C (104 °F). When stored at 40%–60% charge level, the capacity loss is reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively.
In essence, a battery stored at half capacity will last longer, but ofcourse you want to use it at full capacity. It's an inherent drawback.
Also, Li-ion batteries are not as durable as nickel metal hydride or nickel-cadmium designs, and can be extremely dangerous if mistreated. They may explode if overheated or if charged to an excessively high voltage. Furthermore, they may be irreversibly damaged if discharged below a certain voltage. To reduce these risks, li-ion batteries generally contain a small circuit that shuts down the battery when discharged below a certain threshold (typically 3 V) or charged above a certain limit (typically 4.2 V).

wow dude you are Gordon Freeman

Whoah! Thanks for that.
can you just clarify one more thing though?
I know the battery tells itself to stop charging once full but how about operating the device whilst charging?
It gets very hot so how bad is this in short term? Dangerously bad?

Holy Bear said:
Didn't I answer this in the post before yours?
Don't completely drain a lithium battery.
A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its service life is dependent upon aging (shelf life). From time of manufacturing, regardless of whether it was charged or the number of charge/discharge cycles, the battery will decline slowly and predictably in "capacity". This means an older battery will not last as long as a new battery due solely to its age, unlike other batteries. This is due to an increase in internal resistance, which affects its ability to deliver current, thus the problem is more pronounced in high-current applications than low. This drawback is not widely published. However, as this capacity decreases over time, the time required to charge it also decreases proportionally. Also, high charge levels and elevated temperatures hasten permanent capacity loss for Lithium ion batteries. This heat is caused by the traditional carbon anode, which has been replaced with good results by Lithium titanate. Lithium titanate has been experimentally shown to drastically reduce the degenerative effects associated with charging including expansion and other factors.
At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion battery that is full most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly lose approximately 20% capacity per year. However, a battery in for example a poorly ventilated laptop may be subject to a prolonged exposure to much higher temperatures, which will significantly shorten its life. Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C (32 °F), 20% at 25 °C (77 °F), and 35% at 40 °C (104 °F). When stored at 40%–60% charge level, the capacity loss is reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively.
In essence, a battery stored at half capacity will last longer, but ofcourse you want to use it at full capacity. It's an inherent drawback.
Also, Li-ion batteries are not as durable as nickel metal hydride or nickel-cadmium designs, and can be extremely dangerous if mistreated. They may explode if overheated or if charged to an excessively high voltage. Furthermore, they may be irreversibly damaged if discharged below a certain voltage. To reduce these risks, li-ion batteries generally contain a small circuit that shuts down the battery when discharged below a certain threshold (typically 3 V) or charged above a certain limit (typically 4.2 V).
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Click to collapse
Really nice info, thank you for that.
panos123 said:
Whoah! Thanks for that.
can you just clarify one more thing though?
I know the battery tells itself to stop charging once full but how about operating the device whilst charging?
It gets very hot so how bad is this in short term? Dangerously bad?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
not really, i used to have Xperia, and you have to see how that one gets hot!
really HOT, specially Charging + WiFi or GPS!
but nothing happens.
plus high temps (if i remember correctly) something more than 60c so it's so far from there.

good cos I kinda like it.
Like one of hand warmer things you get from a camping store..

Id like to have another question?
Is it OK if I do this?
Sometimes I put my blackstone on charger. It charges up to eg. 80% but I need to go to lunch (I forgot to mentioon that I am at work). So I pull out the charger take the phone and after hour I return and put the phone back on charger...is this bad?
Thanks.

No, that should do no harm to your battery.
But think about the USB jack. Don't plug it in and out 100 times a day.
My old phone's USB jack lost its stability after the 2 years due to that excessive use.

I have another issue. Don't know if it has been discussed on another thread. The battery indicator on the Touch HD is not lineal at all. Once you're below 50% if drops quickly. 20% and 10% are almost inexistent, I get the alert of low battery a few minutes after seeing the battery at 30%.
I had a HTC TyTN II before and at least the battery indicator was more lineal. In the Touch HD I try to charge before it goes below 50%.

Some battery thoughts and testings..

Ok, so my battery can go from 100% full charge (overnight) to like 96% within first couple of minutes. I've done the plug/pull trick and it seems to help for a very short while and it will go back to same issue again and again.
Recently, I just bought the $10 2 batteries with external charger pack and had the extra el cheapo battery all charged up using the external charger. To my surprise, I found that the battery charged with external charger drain very accurately.
I've done some testing for a couple of days now by basically draining out the battery and replace it with a fresh one from the external charger without using the wall adapter.
So my thinking is when charging with wall charger, I think the phone does not evenly charges the battery cells because there are so many moving parts while the phone is on and charging. Therefore, it causes the cell to be charged unevenly that leads to quick battery drain.
With the external charged battery, I went from 100% to 90% in 6 hours time with light usage and GPS on.
Give it a try to see if you get different experience with your battery.

I have been doing the same these past couple of weeks (ever since I rooted my 2.2).
My external charger will be here today (it's now saturday morning cst) and I ordered it yesterday. Gotta love amazon one day shipping.
So far I have observed some very interesting charging habits the evo displays when charging with it's included wall charger and stock and extended batteries.

i went 3 days 12 hours and 46 minutes on a single charge, that is with using the stock battery and a regular wall charger, yes i'm rooted and i used setcpu to set my frequency to 614 when screen on, and 245 when screen off, at night when i go to sleep i put the phone into airplane mode, and overall usage was cut back to light to moderate usage, i was trying to see how long i could actually go on the stock battery, and i must admit i'm very impressed.
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I think the general concensus was that the phone doesn't trickle charge. It will hit full then stop charging to a point then will charge again, all while saying 100%
I charged to full then while plugged in it range gps and iheartradio for 20 minutes, unplugged and it dropped to 92 within 5 minutes

Same here. I'll unplug it, browse the web while eating breakfast (about 10/15 minutes) and today I dropped to 89%. But its been two hours since then with some light texting and more browsing im now at 80%.

pinoyxpryde said:
I think the general concensus was that the phone doesn't trickle charge. It will hit full then stop charging to a point then will charge again, all while saying 100%
I charged to full then while plugged in it range gps and iheartradio for 20 minutes, unplugged and it dropped to 92 within 5 minutes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
granted be the trickle charge is with using the stock usb connecter style wall charger right, i never use that thing unless im connected to the pc, i have a actual regular wall charger that came on another phone i used to have before my Evo, lol.

Update: Yep this morning I replaced my battery that was charged by the external charger that I bought with the bundle and same result. On average, my battery drains at the rate of 1.5% per every hour on light usage with GPS on.
I think from now on, I won't charge the phone using the default charger overnight.

vboyz103 said:
Update: Yep this morning I replaced my battery that was charged by the external charger that I bought with the bundle and same result. On average, my battery drains at the rate of 1.5% per every hour on light usage with GPS on.
I think from now on, I won't charge the phone using the default charger overnight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you take your battery out at night and charge it with an external charger?

Leaving the battery charging all night is bad for the batteries lifespan, that is why htc and many laptop companies implement this feature.
Stop complaining about it. Its only one cell and it has nothing to do with evenly charging, its regulated by the onboard charging system.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App

lehalter said:
So you take your battery out at night and charge it with an external charger?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No I have 2 batteries, and I used one of them throughout the day including leaving it overnight uncharged, then in morning I swap it out with the one that was fully charged from external charger.

mastermarc said:
Leaving the battery charging all night is bad for the batteries lifespan, that is why htc and many laptop companies implement this feature.
Stop complaining about it. Its only one cell and it has nothing to do with evenly charging, its regulated by the onboard charging system.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL, I found this statement is bogus because if you don't leave it charged up overnight then what do you do to recharge it? Come on man! Batteries are meant to be charged up over a period of time.
I'm not saying my understanding of uneven charge distribution is rock solid, but at least I backed it up with some of my own studies.

I just always do my overnight charge with the phone OFF.
Sometimes in the morning I'll also do the unplug, re-plug, wait for green trick.
As long as I don't use 4G, my battery life is GREAT.
My 4g consumption is probably worse because I've tweaked the settings to retry more often - default was 5 minutes between retries.
I guess for people that get calls late at night or don't have a home land-line, turning it off at night is not feasable. But it does get around that immediate drop problem.

They charge at a near constant rate until they are full, after that it is BAD to continue topping them off, please do some research on lithium charging techniques as your "testing" clearly hasn't taught you much if anything about the chemistry.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App

mastermarc said:
They charge at a near constant rate until they are full, after that it is BAD to continue topping them off, please do some research on lithium charging techniques as your "testing" clearly hasn't taught you much if anything about the chemistry.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
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Lol you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The phone doesn't charge at a constant rate until it's full. It would be disastrous for LiCo chemistry if it maintained 0.66C up until it hit 100%. The cell would cook itself to death.
The correct charging profile for the Evo is that it charges constant rate till it hits like 70%, then it slows down until it finally hits 100% and then the charging cuts off. Download JuicePlotter and completely discharge and charge your phone to see this.
Hypothesis below:
The problem with the Evo is that once it hits that cut-off point, the phone never again seems to check if the battery is actually full. (LiCo chemistry has a slight tendency to settle a few hundredths of a volt after charging, and a few hundreths means a couple of %age points when you're in the 4.1V+ range) whereas most cheap chargers will actually keep checking the voltage and trickle charging if necessary.

Too much hassle to keep changing batteries in the Evo, would have to take my case off then the back cover is kinda a ***** and feels like its going to break a tab off or something. The immediate drop doesn't bother me too much. I just use my car charger and it tops me off usually.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Yes, you are right about switching at 70%. Didn't want to complicate things since we got some novices here clearly.
The hypothesis, not so much...as I said before its intentional and it does what it does to preserve the lifespan of the battery. If you paid $10 for a chinese battery, who cares about lifespan, just use an external charger.
Charge it when its off and it gets and stays at 100. Direct evidence that what they did was a feature and not a mistake.
Sent from an evo

I been using the 700 mah charger and I've haven't noticed any difference in performance. Also again I lost 9% carge in the 10 minutes I was surfing while eating breakfast. Oh well. Im not leaving my computer on all night sucking 400 watts or more to charge a 5 watt phone lol. Ill deal with the 10% drain.

Those are the critters under your bed, they use your phone while u r asleep.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App

mastermarc said:
The hypothesis, not so much...as I said before its intentional and it does what it does to preserve the lifespan of the battery. If you paid $10 for a chinese battery, who cares about lifespan, just use an external charger.
Charge it when its off and it gets and stays at 100. Direct evidence that what they did was a feature and not a mistake.
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Click to collapse
I build and design Lithium battery based systems for a living. There's absolutely no reason not to top off the battery. The recommended way to charge any Lithium cell is to constant-current charge and then constant-voltage charge up to 4.2V. Once you get to 4.2V, there's nothing wrong with charging it back up if it settles a little. In fact, most chargers don't even "terminate", they just hold 4.2V.
As for your assertion that it is not a bug, did you consider that perhaps the kernel designers are not realizing that there is some kind of parasitic drain on the battery once the kernel thinks it is full?

AzN1337c0d3r said:
I build and design Lithium battery based systems for a living. There's absolutely no reason not to top off the battery. The recommended way to charge any Lithium cell is to constant-current charge and then constant-voltage charge up to 4.2V. Once you get to 4.2V, there's nothing wrong with charging it back up if it settles a little. In fact, most chargers don't even "terminate", they just hold 4.2V.
As for your assertion that it is not a bug, did you consider that perhaps the kernel designers are not realizing that there is some kind of parasitic drain on the battery once the kernel thinks it is full?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just out of curiosity what kinda systems do you build? I have a lithium powered moped (lifepo4 48v 40ah) but i wouldn't say i particularly designed or built (just assembled) the battery system, would be good to have some connections with some real battery specialists for later projects.
In any case, the parasitic drain is an interesting idea but its odd that I can go to sleep, and in the morning my unplugged evo hasn't changed even 1% battery life, whereas it drains from 100% to some odd 90+ number happens when its plugged in. So the parasitic drain would have to only happen when its plugged in for whatever reason.
Some interesting stuff from the wiki.
Charging procedure
Stage 1: Apply charging current limit until the voltage limit per cell is reached.[42]
Stage 2: Apply maximum voltage per cell limit until the current declines below 3% of rated charge current.[42][unreliable source?]
Stage 3: Periodically apply a top-off charge about once per 500 hours.[42][unreliable source?]
The charge time is about three to five hours, depending on the charger used. Generally, cell phone batteries can be charged at 1C and laptop-types at 0.8C, where C is the current that would discharge the battery in one hour. Charging is usually stopped when the current goes below 0.03C but it can be left indefinitely depending on desired charging time. Some fast chargers skip stage 2 and claim the battery is ready at 70% charge.[42][unreliable source?] Laptop battery chargers sometimes gamble, and try to charge up to 4.35 V then disconnects the battery. This helps to compensate for the battery's internal resistance and charges up to 100% in short time.
Top-off charging is recommended when voltage goes below 4.05 V/cell.[42][unreliable source?]
Lithium-ion[which?] cells are charged with 4.2 ± 0.05 V/cell, except for military long-life cells where 3.92 V is used for extending battery life. Most protection circuits cut off if either 4.3 V or 90 °C is reached. If the voltage drops below 2.50 V per cell, the battery protection circuit may also render it unchargeable with regular charging equipment. Most battery protection circuits stop at 2.7–3.0 V per cell.[42][unreliable source?]
For safety reasons it is recommended the battery be kept at the manufacturer's stated voltage and current ratings during both charge and discharge cycles.
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I'd have to check, but i am nearly certain this is exactly the kind of threshold charging system that you can use with lenovo's battery maximiser. As the wiki sorta explains, topping it off is fine...If you do it very infrequently (500hrs). Continuous charging from all i've ever learned on any chemistry just continues to corrode the plates until they become worse and worse at holding a charge.
No product manual anywhere will ever tell you to leave your charger plugged in for extended periods of time (save for 8hr battery conditioning on ni-cd, also of which it tells you not to do frequently). Storage instructions for lithium example say to leave the battery at about 70% charge. Extrapolating from that we can see that the lesser of the ideals is being completely empty, or too full.
Just my thoughts, much like everyone else i don't have any actual evidence that this was HTC's intention, just seems weird that they would screw something up that's been pretty much the same on the last 20 phones they made. My guess is they didn't.
Edit: oh, and the reason i bolded the military voltage is because that's another (very similar) idea as to what HTC might have done, which is lower the "full charge" threshold for as i suggested before....longer lifespan. But whether the phone ever actually gets to 100% is kinda irrelevant. My point is that its PROBABLY done intentionally to preserve the lifespan of the battery.

[Q] Is it bad to keep phone on Charger or Dock?

One thing I really like about this phone is the battery life. I know this phone has a new battery technology. At work I leave it on an Android speaker dock, and at home at night when I sleep I put on charger even if battery is at 90%. I haven't been able to find a definitive answer if leaving on charger is bad for battery. Last thing I wanna do is ruin the great battery life. Should I let the battery fully discharge every now and then? Or is what I'm doing OK.

BlazinDANDAMAN said:
One thing I really like about this phone is the battery life. I know this phone has a new battery technology. At work I leave it on an Android speaker dock, and at home at night when I sleep I put on charger even if battery is at 90%. I haven't been able to find a definitive answer if leaving on charger is bad for battery. Last thing I wanna do is ruin the great battery life. Should I let the battery fully discharge every now and then? Or is what I'm doing OK.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
try to maintain lower charge for example a battery that is frequently at 50% or lower will last longer than a battery that is always at 80, 90 or 100%

Thanks...I'll do that from now on..I'm rarely under 50%...will make sure to do that from now on...Thank You.

My understanding is that lithium polymer batteries tend to last longer if constantly topped off, and get damaged if constantly drained and let dry. A few charge/discharge cycles from time to time help calibrate the battery.
"Continuous partial discharges create a condition called digital memory, decreasing the accuracy of the device's power gauge" Source: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/five-apps/five-tips-for-extending-lithium-ion-battery-life/
And another way to justify topping it off constantly is the fact that we don't have removable batteries so if you are constantly on the move and out of reach of an AC outlet (or portable power pack), then you are screwed.
I usually let it on AC as much as possible (some times even during the night). Batteries don't over-charge or overheat thanks to voltage controllers in them. My old laptop still retains a charge for hours thanks to this where my friends only last for like 15 minutes. My almost 2 yr old Galaxy Note still lasts for almost a day too.
Another link:
http://gizmodo.com/how-to-take-care-of-your-smartphone-battery-the-right-w-513217256

Charging your battery is a catch 22. If you discharge and charge a full 100% every time you charge, you'll end up shortening your battery's overall life, but you'll get outstanding daily use, at least for a while. On the other hand, if you don't allow enough of a difference between charges, say always charging from 80-100% instead of 40-100%, you'll lower it's daily effectiveness and see shorter daily use, but the battery will last for more cycle counts.
I conditioned the battery on my Droid RAZR to get the maximum daily use out of it. Because of that, The battery started to show it's age at about month 12. By month 18 it was performing at 20-25% effectiveness.
Having a non-removable battery makes deciding how to treat it very difficult.

crashN2u said:
Charging your battery is a catch 22. If you discharge and charge a full 100% every time you charge, you'll end up shortening your battery's overall life, but you'll get outstanding daily use, at least for a while. On the other hand, if you don't allow enough of a difference between charges, say always charging from 80-100% instead of 40-100%, you'll lower it's daily effectiveness and see shorter daily use, but the battery will last for more cycle counts.
I conditioned the battery on my Droid RAZR to get the maximum daily use out of it. Because of that, The battery started to show it's age at about month 12. By month 18 it was performing at 20-25% effectiveness.
Having a non-removable battery makes deciding how to treat it very difficult.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have proven my point here, you mentioned that by following your charging procedure, after just a year your battery performed at 20-25% whereas with my procedure my two year old Note still performs quite acceptably (almost a full day use). Same goes with my 5 year old Laptop.
Of curse there are other factors like average temperature you work on, usage habits, etc. but I'm just providing my 2 cents here.
Cheers!

Rayan said:
You have proven my point here, you mentioned that by following your charging procedure, after just a year your battery performed at 20-25% whereas with my procedure my two year old Note still performs quite acceptably (almost a full day use). Same goes with my 5 year old Laptop.
Of curse there are other factors like average temperature you work on, usage habits, etc. but I'm just providing my 2 cents here.
Cheers!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Definitely. Having a non-removable battery with abysmal daily life, I was forced to make a decision. I crippled my use of the device in order to massage 16-20 hours a day out of it instead of the normal 4-6. At the time, I figured I would jump to a new device before I had to worry about it. I was wrong. I couldn't find anything I liked until this phone. Now, I can focus on a balance between daily max and lifetime max. But, it should take me a week or two to see how it performs for me to choose how I treat it.
:beer:

Exactly!
It's simply amazing how well the battery performs on the G2. I think that GRAM is doing wonders after all (I thought it was just a marketing scheme).
Cheers!

Damasterjj said:
try to maintain lower charge for example a battery that is frequently at 50% or lower will last longer than a battery that is always at 80, 90 or 100%
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Click to collapse
Dear god, don't listen to this advice. Rayan knows more what he's talking about.
Here is a really good article on caring for your battery.
A partial discharge reduces stress and prolongs battery life. Elevated temperature and high currents also affect cycle life.
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Click to collapse
Basically, the fuller you keep your battery, the better... the exact opposite of Damasterjj's suggestion lol
However, if you're storing an unused extra battery (not a concern with the G2), you want to keep it between 50% and 70% charge if you're not going to use it for awhile.

Sorry for double posting, but forgot to mention that just last night right after hitting the sack, I noticed my G2 was fully charged, so I decided to unplug it during the night just to see how much it will drain, and to my surprise, in just about 7 hours it drained only 1%! :good:
So I just concluded that thanks to the fact that the G2 charges quite quickly and it goes to deep sleep very effectively (at least mine) even though its not harmful to leave it charging, its really not necessary to do so once it's full. :good:
Fortunately I grabbed a screenshot:
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Cheers!

Thanks WhiteZero, I totally forgot about where I learned about Lithium batteries. That's a great article.
There's just way too much dis-information on the subject.
Even my carrier's tech support staff recommends not to charge the batteries until completely discharged! They think Lithium batteries have memory effect just like NiCd batteries!
Cheers!

Rayan said:
Thanks WhiteZero, I totally forgot about where I learned about Lithium batteries. That's a great article.
There's just way too much dis-information on the subject.
Even my carrier's tech support staff recommends not to charge the batteries until completely discharged! They think Lithium batteries have memory effect just like NiCd batteries!
Cheers!
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Click to collapse
Yeah, some old habbits die hard, I guess.
Also, to maybe answer the OPs original question: I believe modern phones have charge circuits that bypass the battery once it's 100% full and still on the charger. So you don't ever have to worry about overcharge or whatever. So yes, you can leave your phone on a charger/dock for longer periods of time without issue.

Rayan said:
Sorry for double posting, but forgot to mention that just last night right after hitting the sack, I noticed my G2 was fully charged, so I decided to unplug it during the night just to see how much it will drain, and to my surprise, in just about 7 hours it drained only 1%! :good:
So I just concluded that thanks to the fact that the G2 charges quite quickly and it goes to deep sleep very effectively (at least mine) even though its not harmful to leave it charging, its really not necessary to do so once it's full. :good:
Fortunately I grabbed a screenshot:
Cheers!
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it's missing a ! after the 7 hours. lol
WhiteZero said:
Yeah, some old habbits die hard, I guess.
Also, to maybe answer the OPs original question: I believe modern phones have charge circuits that bypass the battery once it's 100% full and still on the charger. So you don't ever have to worry about overcharge or whatever. So yes, you can leave your phone on a charger/dock for longer periods of time without issue.
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Yeah, what tends to happen is when the battery gets to full, they will cut off the charge and once the battery drops down to a certain percentage will reengage. None of this is seen of course because of how the manufacturers handle the battery charge indicator. There is an almost 0% chance of overcharging because the manufacturers don't allow the battery to ever charge to a full 100%. The display, might show 100%, but the battery will only be charged to about 80%. This is usually done to extend the battery's life, to get more cycles out of it. This is based on some studies stating that charging a lithium battery to 100% full all of the time results in a shorter overall lifetime. The manufacturers don't want people complaining that they got on a 2 year contract and the battery only lasted a year.
Off topic: Speaking of the memory effect. Recent studies have shown that the batteries being used in electrical vehicles are starting to develop the memory effect. That really sucks. That means you're gonna have to run it to near empty before charging it fully. Adds another inconvenience to owning an electric car. Not trying to hijack the thread, just thought it was interesting since we thought those days were behind us when it came to batteries.

Another example that it's safe to leave devices connected to AC are shops where they have them on display. Notice they are always connected to AC (and security system).
On the electric car battery issue, is that happening on newer Lithium powered cars?
Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

Rayan said:
Another example that it's safe to leave devices connected to AC are shops where they have them on display. Notice they are always connected to AC (and security system).
On the electric car battery issue, is that happening on newer Lithium powered cars?
Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk
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ummm...I'll look that up. I just read it like a couple of days ago, but I was half asleep and sick. lol. I'll try to provide the link, but like I said, don't want to hijack the thread.

WhiteZero said:
Dear god, don't listen to this advice. Rayan knows more what he's talking about.
Here is a really good article on caring for your battery.
Basically, the fuller you keep your battery, the better... the exact opposite of Damasterjj's suggestion lol
However, if you're storing an unused extra battery (not a concern with the G2), you want to keep it between 50% and 70% charge if you're not going to use it for awhile.
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read your own article, its the same article I'm using
"A partial discharge reduces stress and prolongs battery life."
Also it says if you keep your phone at 100% you will only get 300 to 500 cycles.before you phone reduce capacity. if you keep your phone at 50% charge you will get 1200 to 1500 charge cycles.

So far I average 33hrs a charge on my phone. I frigging love this thing

Damasterjj said:
read your own article, its the same article I'm using
"A partial discharge reduces stress and prolongs battery life."
Also it says if you keep your phone at 100% you will only get 300 to 500 cycles.before you phone reduce capacity. if you keep your phone at 50% charge you will get 1200 to 1500 charge cycles.
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I think you read that chart backwards? It says "Depth of Discharge". 100% discharge would be 0% battery. 10% discharge would be 90% battery, giving you 3,750 – 4,700 cycles.
The 1,200 – 1,500 cycles is if you discharge to 50% and then charge back to 100%. As a "charge cycle" is from whatever your low point is to 100%. So only letting your phone go to 50% is a good idea. But keeping it at 50% just seems silly.
Looking through that article's comments, theres alot of confusion about what capacity to keep your battery at. There seems to be data to say that letting the phone go to 50% then charging gives you less cycles but more overall usability.

No its not, I've done it with all my phones and never had a problem with any of them.
Sent from my LG-D802 using xda app-developers app

so after reading all the post i am more confused now then i when i started. thanks guys. grrrrr.

Does Adaptive Fast Charging Reduce the Lifespan of your Device?

Silly question, but thought it would be good to ask nevertheless,
Does Adaptive Fast Charging Reduce the Lifespan of your Device?
How is the impact on the overall number of charge cycles for the removable battery?

it reduces the lifespan of your battery not your device. charging at anything exceeding 1C damages the battery. thats 1.5 hours for a full charge.
then again the battery is 30 bucks.

Let the battery drop to 2%, then let it recharge!
Over time, we all know that most batteries lose a lot of their useful juice.
>> I'd suggest making the battery life-life last longer, by letting the battery drop to 2%, then, recharging it fully! This is to avoid battery swelling in the phone, which may cause an internal damage to your phone's components :good:
Happy browsing!

VERSVCE said:
Over time, we all know that most batteries lose a lot of their useful juice.
>> I'd suggest making the battery life-life last longer, by letting the battery drop to 2%, then, recharging it fully! This is to avoid battery swelling in the phone, which may cause an internal damage to your phone's components :good:
Happy browsing!
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Isn't that too low? Won't doing that actually reduce battery life in the long run? I've read that it's good to let it drop to 20% before re-charging it.

Analogy time!
jpbl1976 said:
Isn't that too low? Won't doing that actually reduce battery life in the long run? I've read that it's good to let it drop to 20% before re-charging it.
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Let's imagine you were a phone that was used the whole day, and your batteries are down to 2% Let's say that 2% is your subconscious, to run all that extra information that's through your brain, telling you "Hey, you got extra (at 20%) a whole lot of space for new power juice!"
I know it's sounds like a very childish analogy, but I guess this is the best way I could've explained it :fingers-crossed:

Best information source on batteries:
http://batteryuniversity.com/
The batteries degrade as a function of discharge cycles (where 10 discharges to 90% are roughly the same as one discharege to 0%), time, temperature and charge.
Batteries age slowest when they are at 40%. That's why your out of the box battery is usually 40%, to prolong shelf life.
Batteries age faster the higher the temperature is - adaptive charging increases the temperature while charging more than normal charging, but not by much nor for a long time.
So no need to worry about anything. Charging from 2% is not better than charging from 20%.
Note, their article http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries does not take into account the adaptive charging technology, so the last graph is not really applicable in this case.

I don't like quoting batteryuniversity.. but this is pretty good analysis.. Depth of Dicharge is directly related to the overall longevity of the lithium batteries.. more you discharge.. the less cycles you're going to get..
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
but.. considering that these batteries are $30 bucks.. use them how you like.. just replace it when you start to "FEEL" that battery isn't holding the charge anymore.

The only thing that Samsung said about the Adaptive Fast Charging adapter is that you can charge 50% of the whole charge in only 30 minutes. They didn't say what tecnology they used or any warning of it. If you buy a phone, and it cames with the original charger which is aproved by the FCC and who knows what other organizations tested it, it means that you will not have any problem with the battery by using the original charger that comes with your device. Anyway, a normal smartphone battery only lasts it's original capacity for almost 2 years, after that, consider to replace it.

http://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-...age-lithium-ion-batteries-as-much-as-thought/

zurkx said:
it reduces the lifespan of your battery not your device. charging at anything exceeding 1C damages the battery. thats 1.5 hours for a full charge.
then again the battery is 30 bucks.
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so how much "C" this adaptive charger Note 4 ?

As far as I know modern phones know how much juice is in the battery, and shut off well before the battery is empty to ensure no damage is done if you drain it completely.
With all my new phones I always run them till the turn off then fully charge them back while off up to 4 or 5 times, and in the past this has always improved the life of the battery.
I do not believe this improved the battery life of modern phones though, it's just a habit.
On the flip side, it's never damaged a phone or battery of mine.
As for charging currents and speed, i've always used used charger 1.5amp and above and never had a problem.

New s7 battery conditioning

Hey guys, I recieve my s7 edge today, whats the best way to condition the new phones battery? Some use what it has until its low to recharge until 100 others leave phone off and charge to 100 at start, whats the best result for a good healthy battery?,
Thanks

Lithium ion batteries have come a long way. There is no "memory effect" and conditioning is probably not really all that necessary. If I were you I'd just give it a charge to 100 and use as normal. Might have high drain for the first few days/charge cycles.
Remember that with Li-Ion batteries a "charge cycle" is one complete cycle from 0% to 100%. So by charging when it's at 50% you're only using up one half of a "rated charge cycle" - Battery conditioning shouldn't really be required with modern lithium ion batteries.

Battery conditioning isn't necessary but charging fully and depleting fully will help the phones software learn the battery capacity and give the most accurate percentage remaining reading. I'd say do this a couple times after you first get the phone

gaff15 said:
Battery conditioning isn't necessary but charging fully and depleting fully will help the phones software learn the battery capacity and give the most accurate percentage remaining reading. I'd say do this a couple times after you first get the phone
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This makes sense I guess. But wouldn't the battery percentage remaining be based on the voltage in the battery at a given moment? I wouldn't think the phone would need to "learn" that.

Afaik. It's actually bad to discharge li-ion and li-po batteries down low. I think it's better for battery health to recharge around 50% for instance than waiting until 0%.

Xileforce said:
Afaik. It's actually bad to discharge li-ion and li-po batteries down low. I think it's better for battery health to recharge around 50% for instance than waiting until 0%.
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The 50% mark is an old(and still good) rule of thumb primarily for lead acid batteries.
Leaving these batteries in a discharged state can be bad for them, but in normal usage even a discharge to 0% is fine if followed shortly by a charge cycle. These devices have a low voltage cutoff which is what shuts the phone down and protects the battery from over discharge and damage. Bottom line is use and charge it however you like, the only thing that may change is the time it takes the software to learn your discharge profile and show accurate stats.

Ashevar said:
The 50% mark is an old(and still good) rule of thumb primarily for lead acid batteries.
Leaving these batteries in a discharged state can be bad for them, but in normal usage even a discharge to 0% is fine if followed shortly by a charge cycle. These devices have a low voltage cutoff which is what shuts the phone down and protects the battery from over discharge and damage. Bottom line is use and charge it however you like, the only thing that may change is the time it takes the software to learn your discharge profile and show accurate stats.
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This makes sense. The article I read awhile back was likely referring to non smart charging systems, such as a battery pack. It makes sense that an integrated solution such as a phone would regulate that to maintain battery health.

There are three things that are very bad for Li batteries. 1: overcharging. 2: completely draining. 3: overheating. Li batteries are happiest, and will last the longest, if never cycled above 75% or below 25%. Cars like the Tesla actually show 100% charge when the battery pack is only about 75% charged, and show the battery as depleted well above 0% charge. Then again, the battery pack for a Tesla costs a lot more than a phone.
#1 shouldn't be a problem in any modern device. The circuitry in the battery will tell the phone when to shut down charging to prevent overcharge. #3 can be a problem. If you're charging the battery simultaneously with high battery draining phone usage (e.g., GPS and Nav) phones can get very hot. In fact, I've had my phone stop charging and display a warning when I was navigating and charging the phone wirelessly at the same time. If you're using GPS on a long trip, you almost have to charge it while in use, but might want to avoid wireless or fast chargers. Wireless chargers and fast chargers generate more heat.
#2 is up to you. Repeatedly discharging the battery to single digits will reduce it's lifespan. I try to recharge before 25% but if I get into a situation where I can't I don't obsess over it. I don't worry too much about charging to 100%. I suspect that, like Tesla, 100% is probably not really 100%. The battery manufacturers are likely to leave a little safety margin in there to ensure batteries can't overheat and catch fire.

meyerweb said:
There are three things that are very bad for Li batteries. 1: overcharging. 2: completely draining. 3: overheating. Li batteries are happiest, and will last the longest, if never cycled above 75% or below 25%. Cars like the Tesla actually show 100% charge when the battery pack is only about 75% charged, and show the battery as depleted well above 0% charge. Then again, the battery pack for a Tesla costs a lot more than a phone.
#1 shouldn't be a problem in any modern device. The circuitry in the battery will tell the phone when to shut down charging to prevent overcharge. #3 can be a problem. If you're charging the battery simultaneously with high battery draining phone usage (e.g., GPS and Nav) phones can get very hot. In fact, I've had my phone stop charging and display a warning when I was navigating and charging the phone wirelessly at the same time. If you're using GPS on a long trip, you almost have to charge it while in use, but might want to avoid wireless or fast chargers. Wireless chargers and fast chargers generate more heat.
#2 is up to you. Repeatedly discharging the battery to single digits will reduce it's lifespan. I try to recharge before 25% but if I get into a situation where I can't I don't obsess over it. I don't worry too much about charging to 100%. I suspect that, like Tesla, 100% is probably not really 100%. The battery manufacturers are likely to leave a little safety margin in there to ensure batteries can't overheat and catch fire.
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#1 -> Could be a problem. Manufacturers can set the 100% mark at higher voltage to make it look like it has more capacity while sacrificing longevity, just enough to get through the 1 year warranty period. (Lot of powerbanks do this!) Users have no control of this ceiling. Charging to 80% and letting it cycle below that probably keeps the battery much healthier than keeping it plugged overnight at 100%.
There's an app called AccuBattery on playstore that people might want to check out. It's basically an alarm that turns on when the battery is at desired % level. It also cites real research papers so I would trust what they are doing.

I used to have a long post with a detailed technical explanation but lost it.
Anyway the gist is, basically, batteries work by ion movement, and like a machine, these ions wear out over time due to use. And similar to machines, heavy use wears them out more. You're more likely to break an engine by running it for 1 day at max rev, than running it over a month at half capacity. The smaller the depth of discharge, the lower the wear. Lab tests have concluded that when you constantly discharge from 100 to 0, it allows you betwrrn 300-500 charge cycles before it starts to break down and not hold charges. More specifically, when you reach that magic number your battery can only hold 75% of it's original charge. That's typically 1-2 years of use if you charge once a day. And heavy abusers charge more than once a day, so that decreases the time span to however many weeks it takes them to reach 500 charge cycles. Now, the increase in charge cycles is exponential, not arithmetical. So a depth of discharge to 50 before recharging will not give you 600-1000 charges. Rather it will give you 1200-1500 charge cycles. Mathematically, draining a 3600mah to zero for 300 charges gives you 1080000mah to burn through however short your battery life will be. On the other hand, using only 50% of the battery before recharging gives you 2160000mah to burn through before it expires after at least 1200 charge cycles. In other words, it stored twice more power for you to use. If you say, charge once every 24hrs, going always from 100 to 0 gives you at least 300 days. Recharging twice a day at 50% gives your battery at least 600 days of use before battery capacity deteriorates noticeably. Discharging to 75% before recharging actually gives you 2000-2500 charge cycles, making it even longer. Basically the point is, always plug the phone in when given the chance. Don't wait for 50%, or whatever. 40% is an arbitrary number actually, not sure why it's chosen. Also, this is why one of the choices to auto activate power saving in the S7 is at 50%, so that it keeps the battery up as close to 50% as possible when you get the chance to plug in.
As for charging to 80%, this is because partial charge is better than full charge for lithium ion batteries. The ions are placed on stress to hold charges. Maximum stress is at 100% charge. And like everything else, stuff tends to break more. So not running it to 100% all the time will reduce overall stress experienced and increase the time before deterioration occurs. Personally I charge to 90%, and discharge to 40% or above. That's a 50% depth of charge, so that's good for up to 1500 charge cycles, plus whatever number of cycles the decrease in max stress gives me.
However, note that environmental temperatures also play a role in battery longevity.
Sent from my Galaxy S7 Edge Duos via Tapatalk

just use the dang phone...

cri[LIST=1 said:
[/LIST]s_epic;65635276]Hey guys, I recieve my s7 edge today, whats the best way to condition the new phones battery? Some use what it has until its low to recharge until 100 others leave phone off and charge to 100 at start, whats the best result for a good healthy battery?,
Thanks
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That's actually a perfect way to ruin your battery on purpose!
Just do these things and Don't worry a lot. And remember, when it does die it's not your fault, it's kind of a problem with Lion batteries!
1. Try to keep the battery between 40-80% or 20-40%. But don't worry if tou can't. Saying this in case you're staying at home all day.
2.Keep the heat away from it!!! This one is important
3. Try to discharge it at a lower rate but don't let that get in the way of you enjoying your device.
4. Try not to discharge below 8% at all. But try to not discharge it below 15-20% unless you have important things to do.
5. don't keep it topped of for a long time (like constant going 90-100%, this is damaging) and don't keep it at 100% for long! (For example turning it off and stop using it for a week, or keeping it plugged for a few days)
If you're storing it keep it at 40% (3.8-3.75V) and try to drain it once in a while. (Unlikely to happen with a phone specially one without a removable battery )
I really do hope someone invents a new type of battery. Lipos are anoyying

Simple you don't need too lol
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