[Q] Office program type demo's?? - Galaxy Note 4 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting

[Q] Office program type demo's?? - Galaxy Note 4 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting

Greetings
I am kinda of curious about how people actually use his/her Galaxy Note 4.
Is a replacement for a computer?
Is it a social media device?
A work companion?
Or is a jack of all trades for personal use?
I have seen about 7-10 reviews on the device and I have yet to see anyone use the pen in programs like Excel or Word type applications.
I see them use it for cutting and pasting clips of this or taking notes etc. But I have yet to see any actual power business user stress the device when using business applications.
Every user has a different niche for a particular mobile device. We all use them differently because of various reasons.
I see the device being compared the latest Apple & Nexus offerings, mainly because of real estate of the screen.
You can get a “stylus”third party for both the Nexus & Apple devices. I don’t think that those third party stylus’s are as user friendly or functional as the Note 4’s.
Does any one know of a review or demonstration that demo’s in particular the office type app’s?
I use my device as a business user, I am just curious to see how others use the device and what shortcuts/tricks they have come with when using they device..
Thanks in advance

Related

G1 Rant & Rave

hello all and congrats on the new forum
the android in its current state is quite a poor business phone compared to winmo6.1 for a few reasons. can you all chip in in identifying the areas of weakness just to help out developers who want to do something about it
ill start by mentioning the obvious things to me
1. no exchange mail support with search server and html mail(maybe a roadsync port is needed)
2. no mention of vpn support
3. the join domain feature of wm6.1 was kinda useful to some
4. the only platform that can access our eap-tls network in wm5/6.
5. not sure its a big thing, but maybe a basic firewall is needed.
6. an option less integration with gmail (not good for corporations who have security concerns)
7. reader/editor for office 2k7 documents
8. remote desktop (windows, osX, linux)
9. maybe bundling all the buisness features as a single software pack (that does not need to be included with all sold phones if not many people are intrested) this will simplify development and updates.
10. out of box wirless 3g/edge modem or something similar to WiFiRouter.
that's what i can think of for now. feel free to repost this in a more visible android forum

well then don't get it

whats with the hostility. I'm just trying to make android a more attractive platform by highlighting its business shortcomings.
if we can get developers interested in developing these kind of apps early in its life to make it more corporate friendly it would be great.
taking care of business and core features are far more important than cool 'n' pointless apps that the iphone seems to be handling pretty well.
more stuff:
8. remote desktop (windows, osX, linux)
9. maybe bundling all the business features as a single software pack (that does not need to be included with all sold phones if not many people are interested) this will simplify development and updates.
10. out of box wireless 3g/edge modem or something similar to WiFiRouter.

since it's linux I have no doubt that most of your worries will be addressed. I know Linux has a remote desktop app but the question is will the android run non-java apps? Will it have GCC and some libs? Can we download GCC and some libs to our microSDHC cards? Will SSH work? Will the android GUI have X11-like network support? I am not much of a programmer but if the android has gcc and libs I will be doing some compiling of linux apps.

dagentooboy said:
since it's linux I have no doubt that most of your worries will be addressed. I know Linux has a remote desktop app but the question is will the android run non-java apps? Will it have GCC and some libs? Can we download GCC and some libs to our microSDHC cards? Will SSH work? Will the android GUI have X11-like network support? I am not much of a programmer but if the android has gcc and libs I will be doing some compiling of linux apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im about 95% certain that all apps run inside android's java environment. Therefore any existing opensource application would have to be ported over to the specifications of android's java language.
Android as an operating system is just a linux executable binary. Think of it like X server. Android is just a GUI, but as of now everything that runs in that GUI has to be specifically written for android.
It may be possible to run seperate tty sessions... and that could allow you to run some sort of server in the background behind android that you could access from inside of android via a web browser (http://127.0.0.1 aka localhost style)

mburris said:
Im about 95% certain that all apps run inside android's java environment. Therefore any existing opensource application would have to be ported over to the specifications of android's java language.
Android as an operating system is just a linux executable binary. Think of it like X server. Android is just a GUI, but as of now everything that runs in that GUI has to be specifically written for android.
It may be possible to run seperate tty sessions... and that could allow you to run some sort of server in the background behind android that you could access from inside of android via a web browser (http://127.0.0.1 aka localhost style)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah... that's what I thought. I was hoping that wasn't the case.... I can dream right? Maybe it will be like the Zaurus all over again and we can write an X11 environment for it.

Nr. 1, the Exchange feature was mentioned at the launch, and the official answer was "we expect developers to provide applications for that". I think that also applies to the VPN part; since it's that open and that linux-ish, there will probably be lots of VPN/VNC/RDP/SSH clients available.
3 and 4, I don't even know what they are. Stuck in a Windows-based environment, with closed specs ? tough luck. That's vendor lock-in, you know.
5 - a firewall ? what for ? Your device won't be permanently connected, and you probably won't have lots of apps listening on your phone. Anyway, a filtering module will probably appear pretty soon. I'd be more worried about installed apps making hidden outgoing connections (apps calling home, or malicious apps), therefore a good app to have would be something similar to LittleSnitch.
6 - Google has service offerings for businesses, so you either choose to use their services, or you don't. If you don't like it, you shouldn't use this phone I guess
7 - the feature will appear for sure, at least the viewer part. Not hoping of a OpenOffice port for Android, though.
This phone actually doesn't look like it was built for business use, though; just take a look at the apps who won the contest, all of them are focused on fun, socializing, location-awareness and stuff that's useful to people, not business users.

Hmm, to follow up on the Office part:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/personal_tech/smartphones/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=210604042
"We expect it to be more for the consumer, not necessarily for enterprises," says Cole Brodman, chief technology and innovation officer at T-Mobile USA.
The 4.6-by-2.1-by-0.6-inch handset, which will go on sale in the United States on Oct. 22, will let users view Word and Excel documents as well as PDFs.

a few points:
a*you didnt coment on 8-10
b*the exchange feature needs licencing from mirosoft. i doubt the development comunity can do that. unless some genius cracks the airsync protocol
c*if you are on gprs/edge/3g then the phone is Always connected to the network. that why we have things like pushmail.
d*eap-tls is the most secure type of wirless access. and it uses certificates on both the server and client. the client normally needs to be part of the domain to be able to accept the certificate
e*almost all corporations are locked down to windows. its very imortant that buisness phones integrates very well with them if it were to be considered a buisness phones
f*dont you agree that having a buisness friendly is important for the sucess of any phone platform?
g* do you think that the lack of stylus or (resistive lcd) will hinder its ability to do remote desktop? the track ball thingy enough?

Most of the above points (1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 9) will most likely be addressed by developers and sysadmins in good time. In the case of Exchange, even if the platform is opensource, it doesn't mean that a 3rd party company can't license the technology to provide a solution. It might not be pretty (at first), but I wouldn't say it's impossible.
5. It depends on what specific vulnerabilities you're concerned about, whether on the app/run level or somewhere in the core Android stack. In general I doubt there's any issue that doesn't already exist on other mobile OSes, and given their respective solutions, the same is possible here. But if you have a specific concern in mind it would help to point it out.
6, 9. Google is certainly pushing its suite of apps and for good reason (because a lot of consumers use them), but given the open nature of the platform nothing is cemented in place. So while the G1 comes setup for use with gmail/gcal/maps/etc, there's nothing that says a sysadmin can't strip and replace. Moreover, the G1 isn't being pushed as an enterprise device in the first place; there's every possibility that carriers could release other handset models later, preloaded with more business-centric software packages (and less Google apps), and are simply holding off during Android's initial launch. If you think about it, Android has a much better chance of having a strong launch on the consumer front than on the enterprise front. Take care of the former first, then the latter has a better chance of long-term success.
8, g. Same as above, but Google is also pushing the cloud which could lessen the need for VNC/RDP/etc. Sysadmins will have their doubts about security in Google's cloud, but there's nothing that says they can't first observe the model and then later implement their own solution.
10. Not as much of an issue with the software as it is with the carrier. T-mobile isn't just launching Android, it's also launching its 3G network. Providing tethering out-of-the-box could seriously cripple the network in its infancy, and that's the last thing the US 3G market needs. Face it, we need good competition to force carriers to pick up the pace, and in time we could see some competing tethering plans between AT&T, T-mobile, et al.
Some thoughts in general:
Businesses may currently be invested in Windows Mobile for their mobile solutions, but the point isn't to take Android and simply turn it into WinMo -- that would be a wasted opportunity. WinMo users are effectively tied to their PC in one way or another (sync, RDP, svn, tether, etc). Android has the chance to push the cloud (among other innovative models), so that users are no longer dependent on existing workflows. The handset would become just a terminal for accessing the cloud, and transition between terminals would be completely transparent (Android on a phone? How about a netbook?). Not that I expect Android to overtake WinMo (or BES et al), but it gives companies more solutions that better fit their individual needs, and helps MS, RIM, etc start evolving the existing systems that are frankly getting dated.

thanks that was quite insightful
i would like to point out that a big portion (probably the biggest) of the android users only bought the G1 phone because of its great value. think about it the unlocked $399 G1 has more features than the $700 touch diamond. most of these people couldn't care less about what google have in mind for the platform. all they want is for their phone to do certain tasks (like exchange email) a lot of the other google-pushed tasks will probably be unused

I think for you personally, the #1 most important feature the G1 >>needs<< to have is spellcheck
fatso485 said:
...hostiliy...hilighting...buisness...intrested..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

t mobile is a poor businesses Carrier
most of the big business i have seen use at&t
once tmobile 3g network become more mature they might get some more of the business market. but until they iron out the wrinkles in there new 3g network don't expect anything from tmobile. i don't think you want something like the iphone bill happening to all you business customers.
this is the first step tmobile has taken towards 3g in the US
i am sure there will be some stumbles.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Active Sync protocol needed for Exchange support is free to use from Microsoft. I see a LOT of it in many 3rd party email servers and applications. Many of which are in direct competition with Microsoft. So I think we can assume that Active Sync is very doable on the Android platform. Only needs a developer to do something about it.
Active Sync is my main concern too. Once that's in place, then some way to tether I'm getting me an Android phone quickly.
All the other concerns are too easy to fix either already or very soon, so the 2 problems I mentioned are the only show stoppers for me.

There currently isn't even a foolproof activesync drop-in replacement for Linux desktop distros. There's multisync and synCE, but they're both hard to install, hard to configure, and far from perfect in their implementation. As for getting it working under Android, like everything else, it's probably a wait-and-see situation. Most software for Linux isn't written in Java (which Android prefers/requires?) It'll be interesting to see if a java implementation of activesync software could happen.

does any1 know if the g1 has an on screen keyboard

haitiankid4lyf said:
does any1 know if the g1 has an on screen keyboard
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Currenly, no. The demo and preview vids show that you need to open the hardware keyboard in order to type (except for the phone dialer). But I'm sure SIPs will show up pretty quickly.

fhsieh said:
Currenly, no. The demo and preview vids show that you need to open the hardware keyboard in order to type (except for the phone dialer). But I'm sure SIPs will show up pretty quickly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I hope they change that. When I had the Fuze I never liked pulling out the keyboard unless I have to type something long, an email or a long text or whatever. For normal web browsing, entering 1 URL, it's not worth it to slide it open, type and close it again.

my biggest concern is an appointment calender. im so reliant on my appointment calander ion my Kaiser... i wouldnt know what to do without it. Also, a way to sync files would be great. maybe the phone will be integrated with Google Docs? That would be SUPERB! I take notes in my college classes using Office Mobile, but if Android syncs with Google Docs... good lawd.. goodbye to WinMo!

bigdookie said:
my biggest concern is an appointment calender. im so reliant on my appointment calander ion my Kaiser... i wouldnt know what to do without it. Also, a way to sync files would be great. maybe the phone will be integrated with Google Docs? That would be SUPERB! I take notes in my college classes using Office Mobile, but if Android syncs with Google Docs... good lawd.. goodbye to WinMo!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's a video showing how well it syncs everything.
Say goodbye, WinMo

How do you rate for G1 device?....Reviews Etc.

We're wonder what is people thinking about their G1 device... Please vote and write down your feeling on this new phone.

G1
What does work on this phone works very well. I feel though that this phone is more for developers and hobbyist. It's not quiet ready for guys like me that have very few skills. I hope the software situation gets worked out soon or this phone will end up with no real support just like the Iphone.

i agree, some great potential with this phone, enough to make it a class leader. we just need to see some of the most reported problems ironed out first. great os and hardware on the whole.

what are "mosy reported floors"

I LOVE this phone. Of course it has its problems(lack of camera options, lack of really interesting apps(though there were a hell of a lot of interesting ones added today...), cut and paste is a bit of a pain sometimes but they are all in the software and definitely will be fixed once the device is a little more mature. Considering this is a version 1.0 device and just came out a little over a month ago it's freaking amazing. Heck I've even had iphone users gawk at some of the things it can do like street view compass mode.

Love it!!
I've had (over the past 2 years) the mda, moto q, mogul, instinct, diamond and now the G1.
Windows mobile (mda/q/mogul/diamond), although very convenient, can and will give you a headache and a large pain in the @$$. Screens are usually too cluttered. Such a small screen size with so much stuff. Lag lag lagggggggg. Pocket Internet Explorer is only there for show and orb. Other than that I would recommend opera, netbrowser or skyfire. Functionality is the best feature winmo has. I had full access to my home computer (as long as it was connected to the internet). They are essentially what they are called, PPC's (Pocket PC's).
Instinct... should be set on fire along with all the people who created that POS. Make sure it is a slow roasting fire too. Very very poor smartphone. Good at making/receiving calls though.
The G1 can and will do everying the winmo phones do (minus the head ache... hopefully). All we need to be is patient or pitch in by learning programming.

i rated it very poor, i am very disappointed with the phone and google should be ashamed of themselves. the g1 can't do 1/10th of the things my wing did and my wing was a dog. android is worse than win ce when i first tried it on '03. thanks g1 for ruining my year. xda-devs, please get winmo on this asap.

Till now only 47 peoples vote... gogogo!
Till now only 47 peoples... gogogo! Tell people how do you think on G1~
We hope TMO can see this thread and improve it on next model if possible.

Good and Bad
I rated the phone as Neutral:
Things I like:
- GPS, Wireless are great
- Some cool apps
- Smooth Feel to the screen and it isn't jerky
- Contact List (very flexible for my needs)
- real tactile keyboard
- Maps
- ShopSavvy
Things I don't like:
- Small screen
- No auto-rotate (I know it works with chrooted systems)
- keyboard missing CTRL, PgUp/Down, Arrows (for shell commands)
- Internal Storage space is limited
- Lack of ability to store to SD Card
- The cumbersome headset included (why on earth keep the mic
- Not a true Open Source (I want root access)
Things that would make this phone rock:
- optional on-screen keyboard for simple input (ease up on the wear and tear of constantly having to flip to keyboard)
- piston operated hinges (i.e. slow the shock of closing/opening the keyboard)..opens fast but slows down right before it slams open/shut
- option for normal earpiece input (vice USB headset)
So I'm really mixed. I think a huge win (for me) is the ability to store on SD card (I run out of space all the time now) and having root access. That would put my satisfaction in the upper 90's. I'm sure I'm missing other pros/cons but that's a start for me.

I bought it recently, and am satisfied with it. The screen is very bright and responsive, the browser is very good and I can install my own apps on it without hassle <3
My first one had a squeaky sound to it so I got it exchanged. I have the white one, so it can be hard to see the buttons and some of the apps feel incomplete. Thankfully, I can download the source and mod them to my liking
RouterGuru said:
I rated the phone as Neutral:
Things that would make this phone rock:
- optional on-screen keyboard for simple input (ease up on the wear and tear of constantly having to flip to keyboard)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Aye, that annoys me as well, but the input API is is listed on the roadmap for Q1 09, so not too long now (hopefully).

Auto Rotate...?
Just curious if anyone concern about to disable " Auto Rotate " function once keyboard slide out.
Personally, I don't like it at all since sometime, I wish to browse the webpage on horziontal mode but only way is slide out the keyboard!
It is a $%^&*, why they just don't leave a function for user ON/OFF auto rotate ???

I give the phone itself a "very disappointed", the software "very good".
While much if the phone's problems are likely software, the squeaking and overall build quality are sub-par IMO. The battery life is horrid and, while software can fix some of it, the battery is rated very low, which begs me to ask why they spec'd such a tiny battery for a phone with these features.
The point is, I guess, that the phone itself has problems that cant be fixed with a update. The software, while lacking many simple things, at least can and will be eventually fixed.

For me the G1 is a very good start. The default packages and layouts need to be redone. For example. The contacts options don't offer enough input. Like... Birthdays, Anniversaries As well as maybe having IM support for the various default messengers on the g1 ie gtalk, aim etc.
Another Huge let down is the default SMS/MMS package where it does not allow you to forward and the standard options we have become accustomed to using devices such as WM6....
The picture viewer is the worst i have ever seen in my life. Currently I have over 5500 pictures on my SD card and the default viewer does not allow me to view by Directory or simply go into the folder and view that folder, instead it tries to Cache all 5500 pictures and well 35 mins + trying to cache all of them i close it. Also with so many pictures and thousands of names of files there is no option to View a picture and MMS it directly to a contact.
Syncing the phone. There is currently no support for outlook and well even when you export from outlook in CSV format and import into Google it always comes up half garbled with no pictures already saved for contacts. Also not correctly saving number types. IE from outlook if u save it as a mobile number so u can sms on a WM6 device once imported into google it lists it as a regular phone# and cant quickly create a sms to that user by (auto completing the name as you type.)
The only 2 things i have notice that Remember last view is the homescreen and the Applications menu. For instance if you go into your Apps management and uninstall an app. it sends you to the top of the list. The same goes with your Contacts, Directory views, Music library, Etc.
The default options for all applications are normally the same as in notification options. So if i am getting a Text, MMS, Email or what have you it is the same notification for every notification event.
There is no "task manager" to kill processes. IE an X button to close programs or access to kill process' and while Android is supposed to close programs on its own tell that to mine when i run the Browser or Myspace, Facebook, PacMac and close out of the screens and as time passes i wonder why my phone is running slow and open up the Task Switcher and see all of these running still.
There has been no porting of Office XXXX or Open Office to support excel, docx, and the like formats to android at this time yet.
While many people think that the G1 is a big let down and got it and got rid of it. Many of us see the potentional of its power and customization. So if enough of the users voice there dislikes about standard features you EXPECT and want on your device the better the chances that they will take notice.

ultraman69 said:
i rated it very poor, i am very disappointed with the phone and google should be ashamed of themselves. the g1 can't do 1/10th of the things my wing did and my wing was a dog. android is worse than win ce when i first tried it on '03. thanks g1 for ruining my year. xda-devs, please get winmo on this asap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
your wing was a 4th generation Windows mobile device.... did you have windows CE or win2003 before you had your wing? it took windows ages to provide the flexability they offered in the wing yes we all are used to those basic things that the wing and such wm2005 and 2006 devices have on it but where your wrong is the G1 and Android has the ability with the current phone you OWN this second to surpass that little phone you call Wing. Through updates and the likes. If your so disgusted in your G1 ill get you 100 bucks for it... PM me.

G1 for 2 weeks ... returned ;?
This is not a thread to bash the G1 in anyway, this is not to compare it to other touchscreen phones. This is merely a usability distinction where i couldn't justify $400 for the device which was more or less to play with android.
the G1 is a good phone, speakers (earpiece/speaker on back) have some amplification issues when the volume is too high, coming from and SE phone however they were more than acceptable in rage and clarity if the volume was controlled.
the internet was outstanding, what i would have liked to have seen was copy and paste in browser, which may have held me to the phone a bit longer than the return period. not being able to at the very least edit docs.google.com documents was irritating at best, especially with no proper document viewer on the phone, severely constricting the email that could be sent from the phone. i am by no means a business user ... but wow, i cant even edit a *.doc thats not already on my phone to another person with some changes.
this has rambled on long enough, i just wanted to share a few thoughts that i had of the device.

diabolical28 said:
your wing was a 4th generation Windows mobile device.... did you have windows CE or win2003 before you had your wing? it took windows ages to provide the flexability they offered in the wing yes we all are used to those basic things that the wing and such wm2005 and 2006 devices have on it but where your wrong is the G1 and Android has the ability with the current phone you OWN this second to surpass that little phone you call Wing. Through updates and the likes. If your so disgusted in your G1 ill get you 100 bucks for it... PM me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While correct that the Wing has the upper hand in generations of O/S, I am reminded of a great quote:
"A wise man learns from his mistakes, a wiser man learn's from the mistakes of the one around him"
sure, you need to change the words around a bit, but the lesson is to learn from others. They didnt. Android has a lot of possibilities. Unfortunately they did not "learn" from WM6, they left a lot out. They left it in the hands of developers, who seem to be too busy writing "flashlight" and "punch meter" to write useful everyday apps that we are lacking. So far the only app that I have seen that addresses a missing feature is the missed call app 9which is AWESOME as I miss a lot of calls because they dont ring though ).

I am still keeping the phone simply because of the browsing feature, I love sitting on the couch and browsing websites smoothly. Unbelievably the browser also lacks simple features like a simple ADDRESS bar (well, its hidden in the menus so you would SEARCH and add to Google's search results instead of direct typing a URL) and switching between tabs (now called Windows) is too many unnecessary "touches" in my opinion.
I dont mean to bash the phone (and dont even think about replying with "get another phone if you dont like it") but I like to bring these frustrations up so that Google programmers know one more time why this phone is going to lose its shine if they are too late bringing themselves up to date. (PS3 Sales anyone?, Late on price cuts?). See if you are too late these days, it doesn't matter if you are better, look at MSN's Video website, its awesome and MUCH better than Youtube but no one knows about it because they were late (and they don't have their own "brand name" and its simply MSN Video)
Not being able to edit *.doc files from inside the phone's memory or google docs is one thing, and I think is acceptable on a not-so-fresh-release-anymore phone.
What is NOT acceptable whatsoever on this phone is:
Not being able to see IMAGES in Gmail??! For goodness sake Google and T-Mobile claim everything you love about google in your hand, BS. Windows Mobile did this back in 1999 (used to be called Windows CE and had its own outlook) Yes that was 1999 TEN YEARS AGO on my Cassiopea
Other items worth mentioning to those who don't have the phone:
No proper support of Google's own search on its own website! (constantly getting the blank search result page)
No Copy/Paste
No Contact Sync with Outlook (what the hell? is this Nokia 1997 all over again?)
No spreadsheet/word doc editor/viewer (ok, ok, we are waiting for all kind of programmers making incompatible with each other software
No PDF viewer (Correction, there is a great PDF viewer in the market for purchase, I meant part of the browser, I think google probably wants to come up with its own version for its Google Book website and doesnt want to use Adobe PDF)
No Flash (there goes 50% of the websites I browse)
Severly closed source and limited programming that has caused simple BS "apps" with a few exceptions. Developers are crying about how limited they are in writing programs as this phone is sooo CLOSED in all ways, there is no way to even write a Gadget for it like the clock that comes on the screen. No root access either.
Unscrollable, limited desktop space
No windows for categorizing icons. Well, Google does not believe in categorizing and file systems. I am sure all their own servers are full of FOLDERs just like Microsoft servers but they claim everything should be "LABELED" not "folder"'d.
No app installation on the SD card?? Whats this one?? I dropped my WING because it was still using the ten year old Windows CE memory system (almost) and had very limited space and was always running out.
This phone made me appreciate all the little details that engineers at Microsoft have thought of in the past 20 years and included in Windows. I think of how our life would've beeen different and productivity in the world would've been so behind if Linux, IBMOS/2 and other crap had taken over the computer world. Thanks again Microsoft for all the thousands and thousands of free "apps" you included in Windows. Stuff as simple as RIGHT clicking on the screen or COPY/Paste or just a window to categorize icons, simple stupid things I have been taking for granted for years. I am sure Google programmers would love to use Windows in all their own computers while at work. Now I know why Windows dominates the software industry even though they have failed in cluttered annoying text advertising, search, maps and a few other areas.

brooklynite said:
I am still keeping the phone simply because of the browsing feature, I love sitting on the couch and browsing websites smoothly. Unbelievably the browser also lacks simple features like a simple ADDRESS bar (well, its hidden in the menus so you would SEARCH and add to Google's search results instead of direct typing a URL) and switching between tabs (now called Windows) is too many unnecessary "touches" in my opinion.
I dont mean to bash the phone (and dont even think about replying with "get another phone if you dont like it") but I like to bring these frustrations up so that Google programmers know one more time why this phone is going to lose its shine if they are too late bringing themselves up to date. (PS3 Sales anyone?, Late on price cuts?). See if you are too late these days, it doesn't matter if you are better, look at MSN's Video website, its awesome and MUCH better than Youtube but no one knows about it because they were late (and they don't have their own "brand name" and its simply MSN Video)
Not being able to edit *.doc files from inside the phone's memory or google docs is one thing, and I think is acceptable on a not-so-fresh-release-anymore phone.
What is NOT acceptable whatsoever on this phone is:
Not being able to see IMAGES in Gmail??! For goodness sake Google and T-Mobile claim everything you love about google in your hand, BS. Windows Mobile did this back in 1999 (used to be called Windows CE and had its own outlook) Yes that was 1999 TEN YEARS AGO on my Cassiopea
Other items worth mentioning to those who don't have the phone:
No proper support of Google's own search on its own website! (constantly getting the blank search result page)
No Copy/Paste
No Contact Sync with Outlook (what the hell? is this Nokia 1997 all over again?)
No spreadsheet/word doc editor/viewer (ok, ok, we are waiting for all kind of programmers making incompatible with each other software
No PDF viewer
No Flash (there goes 50% of the websites I browse)
Severly closed source and limited programming that has caused simple BS "apps" with a few exceptions. Developers are crying about how limited they are in writing programs as this phone is sooo CLOSED in all ways, there is no way to even write a Gadget for it like the clock that comes on the screen. No root access either.
Unscrollable, limited desktop space
No windows for categorizing icons. Well, Google does not believe in categorizing and file systems. I am sure all their own servers are full of FOLDERs just like Microsoft servers but they claim everything should be "LABELED" not "folder"'d.
No app installation on the SD card?? Whats this one?? I dropped my WING because it was still using the ten year old Windows CE memory system (almost) and had very limited space and was always running out.
This phone made me appreciate all the little details that engineers at Microsoft have thought of in the past 20 years and included in Windows. I think of how our life would've beeen different and productivity in the world would've been so behind if Linux, IBMOS/2 and other crap had taken over the computer world. Thanks again Microsoft for all the thousands and thousands of free "apps" you included in Windows. Stuff as simple as RIGHT clicking on the screen or COPY/Paste or just a window to categorize icons, simple stupid things I have been taking for granted for years. I am sure Google programmers would love to use Windows in all their own computers while at work. Now I know why Windows dominates the software industry even though they have failed in cluttered annoying text advertising, search, maps and a few other areas.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Flash was announced to be coming sometime in the near future by adobe, when is the question. There is a pdf viewer on handango however i purchased it and tried to open g1's full manual and it wont open it. GO FIGURE lol.

And contacts sync with Outlook is already out - see MailShadowG at www.cemaphore.com
- in fact, it's an entire push Exchange mail/contacts/calendar sync.

diabolical28 said:
your wing was a 4th generation Windows mobile device.... did you have windows CE or win2003 before you had your wing? it took windows ages to provide the flexability they offered in the wing yes we all are used to those basic things that the wing and such wm2005 and 2006 devices have on it but where your wrong is the G1 and Android has the ability with the current phone you OWN this second to surpass that little phone you call Wing. Through updates and the likes. If your so disgusted in your G1 ill get you 100 bucks for it... PM me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sorry, i didn't know that this poll was to rate the potential of the g1. potentially, any phone can be great, 5 stars...
i think by now, 2008, the requirements for a pda phone are pretty much well defined. ms may have taken 3 to 4 gens to get it right, it doesn't mean that google needs 4 gens. they don't have to invent or reinvent anything, it all already there.
unfortunately, google seems too wrapped up in UI than functionality. actually, i don't know where their focus is.

[Q] Will a Touch HD help organize my life?

I'm on the fence about buying one of these for USA use. I don't want to pay $100 for a monthly cell phone plan, so I probably won't need the 3g for "GPS" or a lot of internet usage.
I will however most likely take advantage of the array of programs available and heavily use a calendar application to schedule appointments, reminders, alarm clock, etc. Can someone comment on how a Touch HD helps to simplify and organize their daily routine and keep appointments?
Also, I had a chance to get one of my hands on one in Malaysia and I have to say that the interface is very slick. Is it possible to use the stylus to scribble notes on a notepad? Is this a popular and quick-to-use feature for on-the-fly note taking? I don't see it mentioned very much in the forums here.
I won't be returning to the States until April, so I'll be keeping my eye on some other up and coming phones that have GPS built into the phone for an annual fee.

Well I find the HD invaluable for keeping track of my appointments and buzzing when one is due. But, any windows mobile device will do that.
I also use apMemo to make quick notes on the fly and alarm them if needed. In the car I have on the HD a button mapped to the Resco Note recorder so I may make a verbal note.
I also have loads of applications, like GPS, a copy of wiki, etc etc.
I find SBSH PocketBreeze the best diary program and have this running with TF3D by using SecondToday.
I like TF3D weather and stocks.

Jim and Dave -
Thanks very much for your response. You definitely answered my questions.
I'm not sure at this point that I need a stylus, but it sure would be a nice asset to have, as with the HD. I guess I will most likely wait around a few more months to see what else comes out. The HD is kind of impractical in the US right now since it can't be integrated into the purchase of a celllular plan.

Deleted. Double post for unknown reason.

For me, it definitely helps organize my life. In fact, I would be crippled without it.
In the morning, I rely on it to wake me up with a fantastic alarm clock application called G-Alarm. It has big button to snooze and stop, and plays my favourite music to wake me up.
I have lousy memory, so I rely on it 100% to remind me to pay me bills, renew my insurance, road tax, etc. There are finger friendly calendar applications that lets you enter text 100% without stylus. Try TouchPal or Tengo as your software keyboard, and Thumbcal as the way to enter new appointment.
Of course, birthdays, contact details are all kept in my HD, together with theri emails, etc.
Most of my emails are compiled using my HD, but since the contact could be sync to desktop, you would find it equally convenient to compile emails there too.
I pay all my bill via internet using my Touch HD. So far, Opera is able to 100% handle all my banks, although you might find some bank's website requiring desktop browser to completely carry out the transaction.
All my user id, passwords, warranty expire dates of stuffs I buy, bank accounts details, insurance details, credit cards details, health cards, library cards, software serial numbers, etc etc are all kept using my HD. There are so many nice applications to organise these informations. I use eWallet, but may others are equally good.
I drive around using Tom Tom 7, even on familiar route. Why? Because I tend to day dream and forget the speed camera, school zone hours (where during certain time of the day we must drive at 40Km/h), red light camera (to remind me NOT to enter the intersection if there is a traffic jam (lest having to pay hefty traffic fines), and to stay within the road speed limit. While in unfamiliar places, I'm 100% relying on it to bring me to the destination. While travelling in Asian countries, Tom Tom and iGO are completely useless, so I use Garmin and Mapking in those countries. All these GPS are installed on my HD at all times. Forget iPhone.
I use the stock information a lot, checking it many times during the day.
Then while coming acrosss words I don't know, I use my favourite Lexisgoo to find out what they mean.
There are times when I need to convert unit of measure from one system to another (for example, from cm to inches). I use Panoramic Calc Pro to help me in such task. The standard winmo or iphone calculator is not going to help here.
I live in Australia, where the price of petrol changes frequently duing the day, and there is always a need to know where I can get the cheapest petrol. I have emails sending such informaiton to me twice a day, but I have also bookmark this website to look up instantly when my petrol runs low.
I keep many other reference information on my HD. I install applications such as Wine Guide, Travel Guide on my HD.
While having time to kill, I amuse myself with ebooks using a fantastic ebook reader called AlReader. It is also 100% finger friendly.
I use youtube a lot. There is also an application that lets you view video from sources other than youtube, called Web Video Downloader. With WVD, you could watch from youtube, liveleak, porkolt, dailymotion, tube8, google, eskimotube, pornhub, bootyfix, and xyxx. I don't know most of them as I use only youtbue, but it works for all in my test. You can watch video in MP4 (higher quality that FLV) format there, so I prefer it over the standard youtube player.
Radio, MP3, videos, picture viewing are some other pastimes.
I own video recorders and good cameras, but these days I don't bring them with me anymore, as I find my HD doing very good job in most situation. The only problem is taking picture is very poor lighting condition.
All my telephone converations are recorded automatically using Audio notes touch. There is no need to fumble for pen and paper while speaking on the phone.
I also use AgePhone for VOIP calls using my HD. Just 8 aussie cents per call anywhere in the world untimed.
While playing golf, I use Mobile Golf Scorer to track our scores, calculates the stapleford points of everyone, and rank us if we want to hold competition against each other. It calculates all our handicaps automatically. It tells me the distance of my postion to the water hazards, to the green, etc.
The screen brightness of HD is just excellent beyond my expectation. It has an automatic sensor. I am able to see things very clearly under the strongest sunlight.
My HD is fast. I'm using standard ROM.
HD has excellent battery life. I used to have to use the car charger everytime I get into my car. Now I don't anymore as its battery is so good. Anyway, I also bought a spare battery, so when I run out of battery before going to bed, I simply swap in the new one. You can't do that with iPhone.
I have lots of spreadsheet models that I had created using my mobile device. I use SoftMaker to give me 100% of the desktop editing capability for word, spreadsheet and presentation. I am able to view all email attachment on my HD, with or without internet connection. No such capability with iPhone.
Okay, this is getting too long, but I hope it helps you get the picture.

ModernMuseum said:
The HD is kind of impractical in the US right now since it can't be integrated into the purchase of a celllular plan.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hey, the hd can be used fine in the us. you just wont get 3g. everything else will work fine. you can use jit with any sim card (at&nt, tmobie)

I find taking notes with the stylus very easy.
There's no lag at all!
In fact I do it all the time, Notes is mapped to my right softkey in the home menu.

like some others here, i would struggle without my winmo fone now.
i use the calendar for all my work appts (can be a dozen a day at various venues with various people for various reasons) i sync the calender with outlook both at work and at home, over the mobile network at times. my personal life is stored on there as well such as parties, hols, birthdays etc etc
i collect my work email on the move and can schedule meetings with it
my whole address book is in it, as well as being able to access the corporate address book
i use tomtom to navigate to meetings at places i dont know via my contacts
i make notes on it during meetings and have no trouble making my own minutes in real time. i even make voice notes if in the car and need to recall something
for me, the term Personal Digital Assistant is the perfect description
@jim..... i fond the stock winmo applications to be all i need, just that you have to set them up to your preferences. i use spb diary and shell for my front end though, preferring that over TF3D

eaglesteve said:
All my user id, passwords, warranty expire dates of stuffs I buy, bank accounts details, insurance details, credit cards details, health cards, library cards, software serial numbers, etc etc are all kept using my HD. There are so many nice applications to organise these informations. I use eWallet, but may others are equally good.
...
Okay, this is getting too long, but I hope it helps you get the picture.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off, great post for selling Windows Mobile!
One thing that caught my eye is when you mentioned storing software serial numbers. I couldn't tell you how many online purchases I've made of various pieces of software where I've forgotten where I wrote down the serial number, or worse yet what programs I've even purchased.
You use eWallet to track that, or is there something better that you know of?
I could maybe get rid of the tons of user manuals I hang on to only because they have the serial numbers for installation.. lol.

sschrupp said:
First off, great post for selling Windows Mobile!
One thing that caught my eye is when you mentioned storing software serial numbers. I couldn't tell you how many online purchases I've made of various pieces of software where I've forgotten where I wrote down the serial number, or worse yet what programs I've even purchased.
You use eWallet to track that, or is there something better that you know of?
I could maybe get rid of the tons of user manuals I hang on to only because they have the serial numbers for installation.. lol.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I use is Ilium Listpro. This is a great list application and comes with a PC app that is exactly the same and produces the same files - so, copy and paste to the HD is childs-play.
I have one list (of many) for applications and I try to update that each time I load something up including the version, password/free, web site. See my post on this in the thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=442663
I have in that listpro lists a set of sub-lists for applications I had on my old Tytn II etc. So, I can always track back to an app I might want to try on the HD.
Here is my listpro entry for listpro !! (minus password):
Ilium Listpro 5.0.0.2016 http://www.iliumsoft.com/site/lp/listpro.htm

ModernMuseum said:
Jim and Dave -
Thanks very much for your response. You definitely answered my questions.
I'm not sure at this point that I need a stylus, but it sure would be a nice asset to have, as with the HD. I guess I will most likely wait around a few more months to see what else comes out. The HD is kind of impractical in the US right now since it can't be integrated into the purchase of a celllular plan.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No problem. One thing that I wanna mention real quick though is that...w/ winmo, the big problem (and advantage) that I'm sure you have noticed on these forums is...you're not going to get anywhere w/o 3rd party apps. Basically everything kinda sucks :S lol.
But once you get rolling w/ those...you're great. But the problem therein is that so many apps can begin to bog the device down and cause software conflicts.
The great news....both winmo 6.5 and android are soon to be on the HD (I give it 3.5 months guaranteed they are both running well on it).
EDIT: Basically though, the overall simple answer to your base question is: YES. Maybe other devices could do it better, or it will take tweaking, but YES. And even if you do NO tweaking whatsoever the answer would still be: YES...just not nearly as strong a yes.

Thanks for all the replies guys. I really appreciate it.
@eaglesteve-
When you take notes during meetings, do you use the stylus or your finger, and what program do you use?

ModernMuseum said:
Thanks for all the replies guys. I really appreciate it.
@eaglesteve-
When you take notes during meetings, do you use the stylus or your finger, and what program do you use?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was another guy's post that talks about note taking. I sometimes take sermon notes in Sunday Church services. I use TextMaker with Tengo Thumb keyboard without stylus. Tengo Thumb is the only keyboard that lets me type fast enough to catch up with the speaker. It has only six hugh keys, requiring very little travelling distance (my thumb concentrates around the tyghbn region only, so your thumb and finger need not move all over the screen). Same concept as TouchPal, but just 6 bigger buttons instead of 14 smaller buttons.

eaglesteve said:
It was another guy's post that talks about note taking. I sometimes take sermon notes in Sunday Church services. I use TextMaker with Tengo Thumb keyboard without stylus. Tengo Thumb is the only keyboard that lets me type fast enough to catch up with the speaker. It has only six hugh keys, requiring very little travelling distance (my thumb concentrates around the tyghbn region only, so your thumb and finger need not move all over the screen). Same concept as TouchPal, but just 6 bigger buttons instead of 14 smaller buttons.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or you could use a sound recorder ? I have Resco which I find works well but I don't use it for long sermons !

Cheesy Dave said:
Or you could use a sound recorder ? I have Resco which I find works well but I don't use it for long sermons !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I suppose we could do that too.

Not in a meeting! Hehe.
**crackle**
Keith, don't forget to send that report to the nazi bossman by the end of the day. Oh, yeah, and buy condoms on the way home.
**crackle**

ModernMuseum said:
I'm on the fence about buying one of these for USA use. I don't want to pay $100 for a monthly cell phone plan, so I probably won't need the 3g for "GPS" or a lot of internet usage.
I will however most likely take advantage of the array of programs available and heavily use a calendar application to schedule appointments, reminders, alarm clock, etc. Can someone comment on how a Touch HD helps to simplify and organize their daily routine and keep appointments?
Also, I had a chance to get one of my hands on one in Malaysia and I have to say that the interface is very slick. Is it possible to use the stylus to scribble notes on a notepad? Is this a popular and quick-to-use feature for on-the-fly note taking? I don't see it mentioned very much in the forums here.
I won't be returning to the States until April, so I'll be keeping my eye on some other up and coming phones that have GPS built into the phone for an annual fee.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me start of to say that I don’t own Blackstone yet. Therefore I can’t tell you much about the device performance itself, but I am using WinMo since some 8-10 years now.
During this time I have used quite few different devices and I can tell you that I never had device that was “perfect”. Somehow you will have always some issues that you not very happy with it. Speed, Size, keyboard, Battery live, Screen Size, stability etc. etc.
Furthermore after while you will start to visit this site more and more. Times will pass then you will find out that you spend more time here on this site then you talking to your wife. You will be addicted!!! You will wait of custom ROM releases like you have been waiting for your first child. You will use your device more for flashing and testing new ROMS then you will actually use your device. You will start to install so many Software’s that you think they are useful but then you will find out you use them actually only first couple of days.
Coming to using your device to Organizing your live.. Well looking back to 8-10 years I would say a PDA did become a must for busy people, especially if you work a lot with Microsoft outlook on your desktop.
The OS WinMo gives you basic application and of course there plenty 3 party software that improves the capability and functionality of the Device. Indeed you may find more than one software company that offers almost same software. Well again same as the hardware there is no perfect software besides everyone has own favorites.. I would say try them and find the best for you.
Here is the list of software that I have installed:
Pocket Informant ( PIM)
PhatNotes ( database Notes)
PhatPad (handwriting notes)
CalliGrapher (Hand writing Input)
HiCalc ( calculator and Unit converter)
PhoneAlarm Pro (this software can do more than one thing..check it out)
SKTools (Utilities)
Resco explorer(file explorer)
Google Maps
TodayAgenda (displays appointments and task on today screen)
LingvoSoft Dictionary’s
Softmaker office (Replacement for Pocket word, excel etc.)
Flexmail ( email client: I use this only for POP and IMAP email accounts)
I am a business user. I have daily 80-150 emails. Many Appointments and Project/Task that I need to remember and follow up.
I work mainly with MS outlook on my desktop. Therefore all my appointments, task, Reminders and Contacts are organized in outlook. After Sync. with my Hand device the Pocket Informant gives me the best tools to keep me Organized for those.
I use PhatNotes for all my information that I need to keep as notes(database) to remember. There is 2 versions for PhatNotes. 1) integrates with outlook notes 2)has own separate desktop application. I personally use the separate desktop version. I can organize my notes under different categories. I can protect sensitive notes with passwords
I found Phatpad is one of the best hand writing Notes.. I use it mostly in the meetings to take handwritten notes ( like on paper) I can with the help of the calligrapher convert my handwriting to text and save it as word document or txt file. Moreover it is a great tool for using it like yellow sticker notes. You can add reminder to your notes as well.
Well I can go on like that for hours for what else I am using my WinMo. In Short I would say I would be lost without it. The only Advice I can give you is to install only the software’s that you really use daily base.

Win 8 Metro Poll and discussion - No FUD aloud!!

Righty folks, heres a quick poll, I think the results will be very interesting, anyone is welcome to vote
The discussion however is for objective views and opinions from people who have actually used and tested the OS for a reasonable amount of time, that's to say more than a hand full of days!
Views like "ive read" Ive heard" "Its crap" mean precisely bugger all and are not welcome. Anyone who binned it after 5 min or couldn't be bothered to understand it because it didn't have a start button need not bother to grace us with your presence.
This is not a place to spread FUD, start flame fests or simply come on to moan about it.
Im not saying we all must agree, im saying we need to be able to support that opinion with evidence, we are after all, Microsoft testers, it would be good to support one another and share what we have learnt and help others out.
Let the fun and games commence!

After using consumer preview since its release i have grown to love the interface. I have to use windows 7 on my college's computers and the start button feels so counter intuitive. All of the old functionality still remains if anyone wants to use it. Also, the os as a whole is much faster than 7. My two biggest complaints about windows 8 are the random crashes when exiting sleep and the general lack of drivers, both of which are expected during a beta stage.
Sent from my handheld Linux computer using electromagnetic radiation.

I installed windows 8 the day the consumer preview came out and overall I have to say it’s been a positive experience. There was a slight learning curve, nothing that a few hours and reading the proper documentation could not fix. Although I feel this was slightly due to the fact the charm bar does not seem to respond very well with two monitors, but in all fairness Ctrl + c works fine and I am more comfortable with shortcuts.
A few things I did the metro icons were not very crisp on a large display which is something that I am very nitpicky about. I also wish there was more of a windows phone influence with regards to the metro apps, currently a lot of the apps are just a long horizontal scrolling applications. I would of much preferred titled sections on a continuous loop that when clicked the title you are moved to that section like in wp7.
Currently scrolling around looks ugly and a little clumsy for instance the weather app to me looks horrible. All in all not really that much has changed its is still really just windows with an addition screen that doubles as a start screen and a way to communicate more information then there previously has been in windows.

indeed, ive got a few driver issues as well, but as you say, that is to be expected in its current form.
multi monitor setups are a big issue, trying to get the "zones" can be a bit of a pain, I dare say you'd get used to it but I think this could be easily overcome and is a design fault that needs fixed
Ideally id like to see metro being transferable to different monitors, whilst maintaining the primary monitor else where.
Something else I agree on is the Windows Phone influence, there needs to be more of it, I realise this is beta still but the people tile is terrible when compared to WP, id presume you would allow groups as well...
Something else id like to see imported to this idea is the ability to sync text messages in to the people tile as well, making the Metro UI an extension of WP, their half way there already and would also provide a convent backup solution for WP. The size of txt messages could easily be transferred when your live account syncs every now and then, meaning you would be able to get home, put your WP down, fire up Windows and instantly be able to work with metro containing all the info available on your phone.
In my opinion, if there going to join the platforms then they may as well do it propperly.

I have used it for about 3 weeks now but i am still unsure whether it should be released along with the desktop OS when the RC comes out. tbh I see what they're trying to do, but it's a very bad move for desktop / laptops (unless touchscreen). Compatibility to older windows programs is limited and it's more of an annoyance than anything helpful. They tried to emulate the launch control in Mac with extra features, but i fail to see how this is revolutionary to desktop pcs and such. It just gave you two desktops, one of which you'll rarely use. Of course there are many other things I can complain about, but don't want to rant up this thread lol. Sure it looks pretty and all, but it's more limited than win7 and I don't see how that's a plus.

HaVoKeR said:
Compatibility to older windows programs is limited and it's more of an annoyance than anything helpful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hows that? im unsure where your coming from on this one as it runs anything ive tried that worked on Win 7 so how is it Limited and annoying?
HaVoKeR said:
It just gave you two desktops, one of which you'll rarely use.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I presume you mean the Metro UI is rarely used? From what ive seen the key to getting the most out of Metro is to set it up, at the moment there are limited "apps" which make use of the full live tile function but it will get there, the email, messaging , photos, calendar, Music all work fine (all be it we cant use music properly outside of the US just now)
HaVoKeR said:
Sure it looks pretty and all, but it's more limited than win7 and I don't see how that's a plus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see how its more limited? can you explain that? Metro is just a layer on top of the desktop, personally I cant see any less functionality.

HaVoKeR said:
I have used it for about 3 weeks now but i am still unsure whether it should be released along with the desktop OS when the RC comes out. tbh I see what they're trying to do, but it's a very bad move for desktop / laptops (unless touchscreen). Compatibility to older windows programs is limited and it's more of an annoyance than anything helpful. They tried to emulate the launch control in Mac with extra features, but i fail to see how this is revolutionary to desktop pcs and such. It just gave you two desktops, one of which you'll rarely use. Of course there are many other things I can complain about, but don't want to rant up this thread lol. Sure it looks pretty and all, but it's more limited than win7 and I don't see how that's a plus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Howso? I use all the older programs that I've always used, It's not limited and it's not an annoyance. How are they trying to emulate Launch Control when the Metro UI dates back to before Launch Control (It's been there since WP7's release which was before Lion's)? I actually use both desktops fairly equally.
Edit: I actually have a correction to that Metro UI has been there since Microsoft released the Zune Player software for PC and Zune devices. So it's effectively been around before Launch Control and Lion.
Answering the poll:
Over 2 weeks and Overall Like. I love being able to see everything at a glance when I start Windows, I love the Metro Applications (Especially the Live Communication Applications). It truly is a step forward from the old, dated menu based interface and a step forward that I welcome. I used to switch OSes every few months because I'd get bored with how Windows looked and how limited I was with customizing it, but 8's changes give me the integration and customization that I like I love the Google Calendar sync, I finally have one calendar across all my devices ^_^, Can't wait to see what changes in RC. I just hope they don't bring back the Start Orb/Menu.
Edit: I would love to at least be able to post status changes to social networks in people though and I'm especially hoping for a Windows 8 Google Voice client so I don't have to open my web browser or look at my phone (especially if my phone's dead) to continue sending/receiving messages. I was going to make one in Developer's Preview but I couldn't find a suitable third-party API that supported receiving messages and I couldn't figure out XAML or the Metro Designer...
Also Dazza: I agree, I don't see any less functionality. Rather I see an increase of productivity and functionality.

I couldn't agree more,
The People Hub on here is pretty bad, course its a preview app so I would hope there will be some significant changes. In fact to make it easy for them, I want WP7 People hub on Windows 8, simple as that.
The challenge would be horizontal scrolling as apposed to vertical given that most of us have wide screen, at the moment its a huge waste of space and not very useful.
The messenger app could do with being linked in to FB in much the same way as WP7, in fact once again, just bring it all over, The people, messaging, email etc are probable some of the most efficient designs ive ever seen on a phone, given that Metro is supposed to be a quick efficient way of doing stuff they would do well to keep that the same and let outlook etc take care of the nitty gritty side to things.
edit:
Looks like that results stacking up, by an large the biggest portion of folk like it, and out of those that don't most of those in % terms haven't used it for very long at all. Just goes to show!

I like it alot. I'd be using it as my main OS already if drivers were available for a couple of my devices.
I've always loved the WP7 UI so Metro is great for me. A little bit more work needs doing on the integration of the desktop with Metro though. Just to make things a little more fluid.
I've got Windows 8 installed on both my main PC and my HP TM2 laptop so have given the touch gestures a go too which work really well.

adamwebb28 said:
I like it alot. I'd be using it as my main OS already if drivers were available for a couple of my devices.
I've always loved the WP7 UI so Metro is great for me. A little bit more work needs doing on the integration of the desktop with Metro though. Just to make things a little more fluid.
I've got Windows 8 installed on both my main PC and my HP TM2 laptop so have given the touch gestures a go too which work really well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i was reading on the MS blog that whilst it will run on win7 touch hardware, win 8 hardware has been tweeked even further, have you noticed any issues, especially around fingers moving on to the screen from the sides to quickly? and tap lag (typing to quick an missing letters!)?

dazza9075 said:
i was reading on the MS blog that whilst it will run on win7 touch hardware, win 8 hardware has been tweeked even further, have you noticed any issues, especially around fingers moving on to the screen from the sides to quickly? and tap lag (typing to quick an missing letters!)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll be honest, I haven't done much with using the on screen keyboard. But certainly not had any problems with swiping onto the screen.
The couple of times I have used the on screen keyboard it hasn't felt much better than the old touch keyboard in windows 7.

For tablet: like it very very much.
For desktop: dislike.
I will never use metro on my desktop PC. Why ? Because it cant display more than 1 app ( nope, 1/4 sized app pinned to left or right side does not count for me ). I will never use metro apps on desktop pc, and i think most people wont...so what is it there for ?
I have nothing against metro, and i like the tiles design. But using it on a desktop PC is just not practical for me.

Akiainavas said:
For tablet: like it very very much.
For desktop: dislike.
I will never use metro on my desktop PC. Why ? Because it cant display more than 1 app ( nope, 1/4 sized app pinned to left or right side does not count for me ). I will never use metro apps on desktop pc, and i think most people wont...so what is it there for ?
I have nothing against metro, and i like the tiles design. But using it on a desktop PC is just not practical for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what your saying, but I question your expectation of it.
potentially it displays dozens of "informative apps" opening each app separately then gives you more detail. Consider Metro to be similar to your mobile phone, can you display several windows at once on your phone? unless your using WM probably not but what your phone does is displays you lots of bits of information usually very well. Metro takes this idea and gives it to your PC, a single key press will give you access to stacks of information at a glance, another key press gives you multi windowed windows, or if the metro app is any good you can fire it up in full screen.
Metro is a tool that on the desktop actually works great with impressive levels of productivity, metro on a tablet allows you a great level of finger friendly UI, desktop remains there all be it in a slightly less finger friendly fashion (bumping up the DPI can help here tho!)

dazza9075 said:
what your phone does is displays you lots of bits of information usually very well. Metro takes this idea and gives it to your PC, a single key press will give you access to stacks of information at a glance,
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Click to collapse
Well, yeah that's actually pretty useful. Would be great if desktop apps could create and maintain a Live Tile as well, so i could check my mail count etc with Windows key, but not necessarily read it in full-screen metro mode. They can't do that at the moment, but who knows, maybe later.

Akiainavas said:
Well, yeah that's actually pretty useful. Would be great if desktop apps could create and maintain a Live Tile as well, so i could check my mail count etc with Windows key, but not necessarily read it in full-screen metro mode. They can't do that at the moment, but who knows, maybe later.
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Click to collapse
do you mean getting your mail program to display on the icon information about whats going on? wouldnt think there is much space to get any real info but if you pin your mail program (for the purpose of all my posts ill say that all desktop programs are programs and metro programs are apps) to your task bar then if the program has been designed correctly then it will display some limited info, outlook works great for me, and tells me how many emails i have sitting there.

HaVoKeR said:
I have used it for about 3 weeks now but i am still unsure whether it should be released along with the desktop OS when the RC comes out. tbh I see what they're trying to do, but it's a very bad move for desktop / laptops (unless touchscreen). Compatibility to older windows programs is limited and it's more of an annoyance than anything helpful. They tried to emulate the launch control in Mac with extra features, but i fail to see how this is revolutionary to desktop pcs and such. It just gave you two desktops, one of which you'll rarely use. Of course there are many other things I can complain about, but don't want to rant up this thread lol. Sure it looks pretty and all, but it's more limited than win7 and I don't see how that's a plus.
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Click to collapse
The UI is very different from the Mac and doesn't even work the same. Not sure where you got that - other than all touch interfaces use Icons....
Compatibility is outstanding. I was shocked at how many of my normal use applications ran perfect. For a Beta of a major OS change, the compatibility is excellent.
It's Win 7 AND more new features.
Win 8 will win you over (unless your an Apple fan) once you see how people utilize the OS enhancements.
---------- Post added at 03:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 AM ----------
Akiainavas said:
For tablet: like it very very much.
For desktop: dislike.
I will never use metro on my desktop PC. Why ? Because it cant display more than 1 app ( nope, 1/4 sized app pinned to left or right side does not count for me ). I will never use metro apps on desktop pc, and i think most people wont...so what is it there for ?
I have nothing against metro, and i like the tiles design. But using it on a desktop PC is just not practical for me.
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Click to collapse
I'm not sure what you are talking about. You use the term "app" which to me is one of the little micro applications we use on tablets. Or, are you talking about applications like Streets and Trips, Excel, etc... If you're talking about Metro specifically, then maybe I see what you mean, but I've had multiple ones displayed and running on my laptop although in Metro the sizing is set to 1/3. I did some work with multiple windows between IRFan and Excel and used the old desktop to customize the sizing of the windows. So, again, not sure why you say you can't do it.???

Those same under the hood enhancements could have been made to Windows 7 while keeping and enhancing the Windows 7 UI and called Windows 8 on release (or even a Service pack FFS, look how big XP SP2 was).
It has nothing to do with Apple. It has nothing to do with under the hood improvements that could have been made to 7, anyways (like going from Vista to 7, hello...). It has to do with the jarring and otherwise terrible user experience this release has on non-touch PCs and also for multile monitor users (who are becoming more prevelant with budget graphics cards allowing this and LCD monitors being so cheap nowadays).
I've ran the beta on its own PC. It's terrible for desktop use and will deserve the reviews I'm almost sure it will get when it releases to non-touch users later this year.
Compatibility is always excellent because the Win32 API is forward compatible. There's nothing great, exciting, or unforseen about that. Solaris is UNIX and it has the same backward and forward API compatibility very similar to Windows.
They destroyed Multi-Tasking and generally destroyed the way people use their computers for the sold purpose of pushing their own dumb-down UI metaphor down people's throats. Metro wastes a ton of screen real estate. Look bow big the banners are in many of those apps, and how much odd whitespace is in some of them (Email app, Pictures app, etc.).
Then they throw a highly curated/bastardized version of the explorer shell in as an app and tell us "see, the desktop is still there" even though only Metro apps will be sold directly (and updated directly) via the Windows Store and they're basically deprecating Win32/MFC development, among other things.
I have a hard time calling this a multi-tasking OS, especially if you sit in Metro most of the time.
Sorry, but I'm not sure what YOU'RE talking about.

oh, your here as well, thanks for the constructive feedback, I trust you are using the feedback options within Win 8 to provide MS with your deep insights in to the workings of their BETA product that you asked to test for them
Oh, and Desktop isn't an app, its the desktop, its no different than before and ive not found anything that doesn't work yet strangely enough as i said on the other thread, multi tasking works fine
But anyhow, im not going to bother replying to it all as you seem to have completely made your mind up without really understanding what its all about

dazza9075 said:
oh, your here as well, thanks for the constructive feedback, I trust you are using the feedback options within Win 8 to provide MS with your deep insights in to the workings of their BETA product that you asked to test for them
Oh, and Desktop isn't an app, its the desktop, its no different than before and ive not found anything that doesn't work yet strangely enough as i said on the other thread, multi tasking works fine
But anyhow, im not going to bother replying to it all as you seem to have completely made your mind up without really understanding what its all about
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Click to collapse
I stopped giving feedback when they stopped listening to and implementing the most trivial QoL changes in their products.
The Desktop doesn't even have a functioning start menu comparable to Windows Vista or 7 yet you somehow feel compelled to believe it's functionally identical.
Fine is in the eye of the beholder. Being thrown from Desktop to full screen metro apps and only being able to multi-task Metro apps by pinning one to 1/4the screen is a terrible compromise bordering on laughable.
Oh, and have you tried using Windows 8 on a non-touch laptop with only a Trackpad? Laughable...

N8ter said:
I stopped giving feedback when they stopped listening to and implementing the most trivial QoL changes in their products.
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Click to collapse
Then why bother downloading it, its for testing purposes only
you have this so unbelievably wrong

Windows Updates: 8.1, Update 1, Threshold, Windows 9

Hi guys. For anyone else interested in this, some of you may also listen to podcasts like Windows Weekly or read articles from top Windows writers like Mary Jo Foley of ZDnet, Paul Thurott etc. Last I heard them say that it's 50/50, Micro employees are saying there isn't definitely an 8.2 (remember at this point Blue was in full dev last year), they could either skip to Windows 9, particularly as a branding refresh a la Vista.
What do you think? Will they? Do you want them to?
I do. I really think desktop users got shafted and I can't believe how many third party modifications it takes for me to get comfortable with Win 8. Reading the 'making win 8' blog I was excited. From the preview I was shocked so much was unfinished and gambled, unlike the Win 7 preview. The Xbox 180 rollback (and the firing of the Windows, Xbox chiefs and investor kick-out of the CEO) to me highlights a recognition of failure from a business point.
Edit - I'm going to upgrade my statement and say the world's largest PC manufacturer dissing the start screen and adding a third party menu - Pokki - is a result of feedback from customers and that I find it hard to believe how Microsoft couldn't add a full menu back in 9 at least alongside a start screen.
http://blog.pokki.com/2013/08/lenovo-pcs-now-come-with-pokki/

i don't care what they call it, as long as it's something worth upgrading to. other than my tablets, i have no reason upgrade any other computer i own or use to win8. windows 7 works fine for now.

Nice opinion piece, i couldn't care less what they call it.
As long as they don't A, force us to use metro all of the time or B, put the old start menu back in again ill upgrade to it.

SharpnShiny said:
Hi guys. For anyone else interested in this, some of you may also listen to podcasts like Windows Weekly or read articles from top Windows writers like Mary Jo Foley of ZDnet, Paul Thurott etc. Last I heard them say that it's 50/50, Micro employees are saying there isn't definitely an 8.2 (remember at this point Blue was in full dev last year), they could either skip to Windows 9, particularly as a branding refresh a la Vista.
What do you think? Will they? Do you want them to?
I do. I really think desktop users got shafted and I can't believe how many third party modifications it takes for me to get comfortable with Win 8. Reading the 'making win 8' blog I was excited. From the preview I was shocked so much was unfinished and gambled, unlike the Win 7 preview. The Xbox 180 rollback (and the firing of the Windows, Xbox chiefs and investor kick-out of the CEO) to me highlights a recognition of failure from a business point.
Edit - I'm going to upgrade my statement and say the world's largest PC manufacturer dissing the start screen and adding a third party menu - Pokki - is a result of feedback from customers and that I find it hard to believe how Microsoft couldn't add a full menu back in 9 at least alongside a start screen.
http://blog.pokki.com/2013/08/lenovo-pcs-now-come-with-pokki/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think - well, actually hope (so there's personal bias) - that the Windows team will come to its senses. A hybrid OS that runs on desktop/mobile and unifying look and feel was a good idea on paper. The problem was in trying to nudge desktop users to use Metro without touch capability. And that's where they are going to lose a HUGE segment of business.
Business wise most companies think 8 is another Vista and when XP reaches EOS they'll go to 7 and hope for the best with 9 - and it's coming. Historically Windows gets no more than 2 major updates in a life cycle and with 7 only getting one (so far) it's fair to suspect that Blue (8.1) may be it. Try to get more user approval on it and hope for the best with a new version. They could clean up 8, add a true "desktop/touch/hybrid" look/feel and slap a Windows 9 label on it... but here's hoping they'll spend the next 12-14 months really deciding what they want to do forward.

I really don't see the fuss over lack of a start button. What do people seriously use it for? Launching applications, shutting down the PC and accessing control panel (and related).
Launching apps can be done from desktop icons, modern ui tiles or simply go to modern ui and if the software didnt have a piece of crap installer when you start to type its name (dont even have to click a box or anything) it will list it. <- because that was so hard.
Shutting down PC, control-alt-delete or alt-f4 on the desktop or windows key + I to open the settings charm where you can click power > shutdown or here is a revolotionary idea for those with laptops or desktops within reach: press the power button and windows will prompt for shut down.
Control panel. Either try the launching apps thing above. Alternately, move the mouse to the bottom left corner so the little "start" thing appears, right click it, its right there.
I for one find windows 8 *easier* with keyboard and mouse than 7 was. I don't have a problem using modern ui apps with keyboard and mouse either. I have a word for those people who cannot work out how an app works on keyboard and mouse, its 6 letters long, starts with an R and has political incorrectness written all over it.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
I really don't see the fuss over lack of a start button. What do people seriously use it for? Launching applications, shutting down the PC and accessing control panel (and related).
Launching apps can be done from desktop icons, modern ui tiles or simply go to modern ui and if the software didnt have a piece of crap installer when you start to type its name (dont even have to click a box or anything) it will list it. <- because that was so hard.
Shutting down PC, control-alt-delete or alt-f4 on the desktop or windows key + I to open the settings charm where you can click power > shutdown or here is a revolotionary idea for those with laptops or desktops within reach: press the power button and windows will prompt for shut down.
Control panel. Either try the launching apps thing above. Alternately, move the mouse to the bottom left corner so the little "start" thing appears, right click it, its right there.
I for one find windows 8 *easier* with keyboard and mouse than 7 was. I don't have a problem using modern ui apps with keyboard and mouse either. I have a word for those people who cannot work out how an app works on keyboard and mouse, its 6 letters long, starts with an R and has political incorrectness written all over it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To call me or anyone else that 6 letter word is clairvoyant of your personality. 18 years of using a start button doesn't go away quickly. Asking paradigms to change that fast is dang near impossible for most businesses. There should be at least a slight understanding of that.
In all fairness most of the big and powerful things you needed can be found in 8.1 preview by right clicking the Windows icon on the bottom right and does far more than I'll need. And with all due respect to your opinion, I have about 30+ different applications on my work PC that I use on a constant basis. Top 5 are in the toolbar (also having a challenge duplicating this in 8.1 preview - maybe someone can shed some light for me?) to avoid hitting that button. Rest of them are easily found because I set up my Start Menu to be as efficient as I need it to be. I'm trying to find a way to match that without having to go into Metro because honestly that takes more time. And please don't patronize me about going back to icons on the desktop - that's regressive to 3.1 and NOT progressive. Your power suggestions have also been around since at least XP so no new news there. I didn't know about being able to search for your apps within Metro and I will give that a shot and see if I reconsider. Moving the scroll bar on the bottom of metro to scroll to apps is VERY different than the touch response.
Notice I didn't trash the Metro UI concept, I think it's dead on for touch devices. I just think they can and should improve on the non-touch side where honestly most folks (and companies) do not need/want it... yet. Just like not every company embraces 64 bit OSes yet because they have yet to exceed the 4GB limitation. Again, just sharing my personal thoughts and those that I've heard at corporate levels so far. Not all of us are fortunate to be able to use the same OS at home and work. Many of us will always be behind the times in technology at the office - even if we work in IT.

Windows 9 or 99 - not a whole lot of difference
A side comment to the overarching theme of this thread: Windows 8.2 vs Windows 9 is purely a naming decision that has very little to do with what the actual product will look like. Certainly it has zero bearing on what features will go in.
It's almost certain that at the same time during Windows 8.1 development, the decision hadn't yet been made as to whether call the OS Windows 9, Windows 8.1 or what have you (hence the codename "Windows Blue").
Another good illustration of how naming doesn't mean a whole lot in Microsoft is the evolution from WinNT 6.0 to 6.1. On the client side the move was Vista -> 7 ("major" update), on the server line it was Server 2008 -> Server 2008 R2 ("small" update). But the magnitude of changes was of course very similar between both product lines.
Bottom line: don't get hung up on the naming aspect--it's like reading tea leaves. Look to the core of the product.

Before all the turmoil--reorg, lameduck CEO, Nokia acquisition--I was pretty confident of seeing Win9, as 8.1 was basically a polished 8, and 8 wasn't going anywhere. An 8.2 would only prolong the ignominy.
To have Win9, MS has to have an idea of how to substantively improve on Win8 (that users will buy into.) All present indicators are that that direction doesn't exist. The reorg will paralyze any new initiative, as will Ballmer's lameduck status. And digesting Nokia on top of those...well, turmoil would be putting it kindly.
There should be a new CEO next year (probably Elop, yuck). Lumias will be rebadged, and merged into the Surface effort. But integration and reorg for a company of MS' size will take 2-3 years at least. That almost certainly means we'll see another incremental Win release.
I expect 8.1's reception will be marginally better than 8, mainly because of XP's EOL and replacement purchases for those skipping over 8. The hardware (Haswell, Bay Trail) is better and will also help. But PC's glory days are over, more so because of MS' abandonment and ineptitude than from anything else. Not only on the software side, but hardware as well. OEMs are jumping off the listing ship, even faster now that MS is set to be a full-on competitor.
So how to fix Win 8.x within a year, with no new direction, and a paralyzed company? More TLC to its fast-shrinking cash cow, the desktop, would be a start. As before, I'd like to see a "Windows Classic" that again emphasize on desktop, perhaps with Metro as an optional component. I think a 1-yr allotment for this is doable, even given the dire circumstances. Metro, or Win Mobile (refurb'ed), can be an "essential" add-on, or a separate standalone. The step would be a good holding action.
This would require a revisit of MS' "one-size-fits-all" UI tenet, which isn't succeeding anyway. Metro on its own merits is nothing special, hence its force-feeding to Win users. But neither lame-duck Ballmer nor (likely) Elop has the vision to make a fundamental change. Elop did not turn Nokia around.
We'll see what comes out of the blender next year. For this year, I'll be upgrading to 8.1 and using it strictly as a desktop OS, ie an updated Win7. Metro will be excised, and all my tablet/phone needs will be (have been) met by Android. From what I see of the upcoming Win tabs, they all suck. High prices compared to Android, desktop apps that don't run well on tabs, and paltry selection of mobile apps (that are locked to MS' app store).
Anybody running 8.1 RTM (not RT) yet?
>unfortunately the great anti MS movement has done well in telling people what they should and should not like
Just have to comment on this. Get off the blame game shtick. MS' travails are its own doing, not from any "hater conspiracy" theory. Stop contributing to the childish squabbles.
>I didn't trash the Metro UI concept, I think it's dead on for touch devices.
I can't agree. Metro is still immature, as is MS' notion of mobile devices. Simple case-in-point: 8 does not support portrait use, most apps are landscapes only. 8.1's purported support doesn't compensate for the fact that current and most upcoming tablets will be 16:9. Try using one in portrait and see the awkwardness.
Metro has many other deficits, which I've pointed out before. Landscape orientation (and scrolling) is bad for long lists, among other things, which are best done vertically. Ever wondered why there still isn't a good file manager for Metro? Not to say that Android and iOS are perfect. Both have their foibles. But they're already far ahead in share and 3rd-party support.
>Windows 8.2 vs Windows 9 is purely a naming decision that has very little to do with what the actual product will look like.
What we're talking about isn't the numbering per se, but whether there'll be a substantive change for the next Win rev. The 8.2 vs 9 is a shorthand.

As far as substantive changes go, I can't predict the future, but I can say this. A few bugs can make a program completely unusable, but it doesn't mean that the program is necessarily total crap in its entirety.
Windows 8 isn't all bad. It has a few features which some users really don't like, but most of the new features aren't bad. They're good features solidly engineered. So it's very possible that an incremental release focusing on making these few problematic areas right could be a major hit.
A common perception is that Windows 8 is somehow so abhorrent that only a total rollback or a total redesign can possibly save the ship. I don't think it's an accurate assessment.

Its not a Blame game, its an observation from dealing with the public, in many cases for no justifiable reason or argument without substance a large portion of the geeky public/profession (note I am one as well) seem hell bent on slagging off anything MS.
It has its faults just as any organization does but some much of the tripe an miss information I have to wade through just to get to the root cause of the problem is staggering!! So no, its not about trying to partake in a childish game, its about trying to stop people being misled by so called experts and to make informed decisions based on fact
Sent from my Rooted Kobo Arc

>A few bugs can make a program completely unusable, but it doesn't mean that the program is necessarily total crap in its entirety.
Win8's issue isn't about bugs, but more fundamental: its design and structure, which were radically changed to fit the one-size-fits-all scheme. Users have not warmed to this direction, and at this point I can't see any change to Metro that can make touch use viable for desktops. While some here may differ on the finer points (or affiliation), it's safe to say that none here has yet to use Metro exclusively as a desktop replacement. It's almost a year since release. There are no more excuses.
>Windows 8 isn't all bad. It has a few features which some users really don't like, but most of the new features aren't bad. They're good features solidly engineered.
What's "bad" or "good" is an opinion. What's not opinion is Win8--ergo, Metro--adoption rate. It's abysmal. One may be an optimist and hope for salvation in 8.1 (or perhaps 8.2). MS certainly doesn't think 8.x will do so great, else it wouldn't have opted for the reorg, Ballmer wouldn't have been kicked out, and Nokia buy wouldn't be a necessity.
Put another way, it's not any one person's opinion that matters, but the collective opinions of Windows users. They've spoken, and I don't see any miracle on the horizon to change their tune.

People need to get the following in their head:
1) Desktop isn't going anywhere, stop dramatizing over the desktop vs metro bullcrap
2) Windows 8 does not force you to use metro, just the start screen, which is miles better than the old start menu.
3) Windows 8 metro works perfectly fine with keyboard and mouse. The R word is pretty much suitable for anyone who can't make the jump from start button to start screen. If you are that R, then you need to quit using a computer, that stuff aint for you.
4)Neither metro, nor the desktop will disappear in any subsequent versions of windows. Stop fearing/hoping.
5) it will probably take around 2 years until the next version of windows (9, momo, kiki whatever) comes along. Windows 8.1 is more like a service pack for windows 8.

garwynn said:
To call me or anyone else that 6 letter word is clairvoyant of your personality. 18 years of using a start button doesn't go away quickly. Asking paradigms to change that fast is dang near impossible for most businesses. There should be at least a slight understanding of that.
In all fairness most of the big and powerful things you needed can be found in 8.1 preview by right clicking the Windows icon on the bottom right and does far more than I'll need. And with all due respect to your opinion, I have about 30+ different applications on my work PC that I use on a constant basis. Top 5 are in the toolbar (also having a challenge duplicating this in 8.1 preview - maybe someone can shed some light for me?) to avoid hitting that button. Rest of them are easily found because I set up my Start Menu to be as efficient as I need it to be. I'm trying to find a way to match that without having to go into Metro because honestly that takes more time. And please don't patronize me about going back to icons on the desktop - that's regressive to 3.1 and NOT progressive. Your power suggestions have also been around since at least XP so no new news there. I didn't know about being able to search for your apps within Metro and I will give that a shot and see if I reconsider. Moving the scroll bar on the bottom of metro to scroll to apps is VERY different than the touch response.
Notice I didn't trash the Metro UI concept, I think it's dead on for touch devices. I just think they can and should improve on the non-touch side where honestly most folks (and companies) do not need/want it... yet. Just like not every company embraces 64 bit OSes yet because they have yet to exceed the 4GB limitation. Again, just sharing my personal thoughts and those that I've heard at corporate levels so far. Not all of us are fortunate to be able to use the same OS at home and work. Many of us will always be behind the times in technology at the office - even if we work in IT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't know me nor my personality. I think my choice of word is justified, nor did I call you it. I have not used the start button for 18 years, only about 10, but 10 years of start button usage I was able to throw away like an empty chocolate bar wrapper
I am running 8.0 not 8.1. Toolbar is working fine here. I also prefer a clean desktop, always have done, I do have My Computer, recycle bin and my account folder otherwise its empty.
You dont have to move the bar along the bottom of the start bar. On a multitouch trackpad (as on most windows 8 laptops and a few 7 laptops too, or a USB one) a 2 finger horizontal swipe, alternately it will respond to the scroll wheel on your mouse (or the scroll region on non multitouch trackpads or a 2 finger vertical swipe) and a 3rd option is to simply move your mouse against the edge and as you try to move the mouse further it scrolls in that direction. This works in apps too (although a few apps don't respond to moving the mouse against the edge in my experience, most do though).
The search function has actually changed between 8.0 and 8.1. In 8.0 start typing at metro it starts searching your PC by default but segregates results in apps, settings and files. Most desktop applications with a proper installer get listed under apps, a few things like putty or minecraft which dont have proper installers get lumped into files. In 8.1 it goes back to the old windows 7 style search without segregating the results. Both still have individual searches for store, bing etc (actually, here on 8.0 google chrome is listed as a searchable app too which is kinda neat, never noticed that until now). I find it incredibly quick to find things this way, just hit the windows key and type "beam" and its already listed Start BeamNG.Drive and Uninstall BeamNG.Drive as launchable applications, if I was searching for minecraft (pinned to start) I would need an extra click unfortunately but on 8.1 I wouldn't.
My only major metro complaints are lack of apps, lack of serial port access in the WinRT API (whether that be hardware, USB or bluetooth, not that windows distinguishes), blocking of localhost TCP or UDP connections (or any other network connection) and that control panel and file browsing should also be available in metro if metro is to be a viable system. On this machine yeah, perhaps I would rather use control panel in desktop mode, but it should be available on metro too. Lack of apps isn't something microsoft can do much about, that is entirely down to 3rd parties. I went to make an app but sadly microsoft say no serial ports and my application required it, I had a workaround which was to make the app communicate with a desktop application over a network and have the desktop application use a serial port, but thats both a) awkward and b) limiting as localhost is no longer possible so the desktop app would need to run on a second device which kinda defeats the point. I think 8.1 adds bluetooth RfComm support, it is possible to build up bluetooth SPP support in user code atop RfComm so at least 8.1 would allow bluetooth serial to an extent.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
I went to make an app but sadly microsoft say no serial ports and my application required it, I had a workaround which was to make the app communicate with a desktop application over a network and have the desktop application use a serial port, but thats both a) awkward and b) limiting as localhost is no longer possible so the desktop app would need to run on a second device which kinda defeats the point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried marshaling your data through the file system? Apps could communicate through metro app's local storage. It's hacky and it may require fiddling with permissions, but it could work depending on your latency requirements.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
You don't know me nor my personality. I think my choice of word is justified, nor did I call you it. I have not used the start button for 18 years, only about 10, but 10 years of start button usage I was able to throw away like an empty chocolate bar wrapper.
You dont have to move the bar along the bottom of the start bar. On a multitouch trackpad (as on most windows 8 laptops and a few 7 laptops too, or a USB one) a 2 finger horizontal swipe, alternately it will respond to the scroll wheel on your mouse (or the scroll region on non multitouch trackpads or a 2 finger vertical swipe) and a 3rd option is to simply move your mouse against the edge and as you try to move the mouse further it scrolls in that direction. This works in apps too (although a few apps don't respond to moving the mouse against the edge in my experience, most do though).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Didn't say you meant it to me, just that there are a lot of people who would disagree with your thoughts. Please keep in mind - from a TS perspective we are outliers. From a corporate standpoint they have to look at the lowest common denominator - the users who muddle through using a computer just to get the everyday things done. They don't have a choice but to do that or not work. Not everyone even in Gen Y or the Millennials are tech savvy. (Women are sadly still behind the curve, something I'm going to make sure my kids avoid. Knowledge is power IMO.)
Your second paragraph is mainly targeting, again, a different segment than who I'm talking about. My concern is with the users that have box, wired KB/mouse and one screen and need it as simple as possible to do their job. These folks - some of which I am related to - are quite happy with their 2009 Core 2 Quad PC because it plays video and lets them browse the internet. Even if I build them another PC - and I did on the cheap recently - they have yet to touch it over the old system because they're comfortable with it. Ironic because you solve all their complaints and they still stick with what they know.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
I went to make an app but sadly microsoft say no serial ports and my application required it, I had a workaround which was to make the app communicate with a desktop application over a network and have the desktop application use a serial port, but thats both a) awkward and b) limiting as localhost is no longer possible so the desktop app would need to run on a second device which kinda defeats the point. I think 8.1 adds bluetooth RfComm support, it is possible to build up bluetooth SPP support in user code atop RfComm so at least 8.1 would allow bluetooth serial to an extent.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What were you trying to use via serial? USB storage access? If so I think they're trying to pigeonhole it to the sever (SkyDrive) as that seems to be the way that it goes. All the reason why I keep very few apps with data on my Note 2 - and those that I do keep data locally.

daniel-s said:
Have you tried marshaling your data through the file system? Apps could communicate through metro app's local storage. It's hacky and it may require fiddling with permissions, but it could work depending on your latency requirements.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hacky indeed, but then so was my first thought. Latency is an issue, but file systems might *just* do it actually. Would have to think about that a bit more.
garwynn said:
What were you trying to use via serial? USB storage access? If so I think they're trying to pigeonhole it to the sever (SkyDrive) as that seems to be the way that it goes. All the reason why I keep very few apps with data on my Note 2 - and those that I do keep data locally.
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I've not heard of USB storage being done through an old fashioned serial/COM port which is what I wanted to use. Some people do still use their old RS232 ports or similar. In my case, I was initially aiming to have a serial terminal which could be attached to a raspberry pi, I was also planning a remote control type app aim at robots powered by arduinos and other microcontrollers. Communication from PC to microcontroller is almost always serial, even the arduino boards which supposedly have a USB port on them then have a USB>Serial adaptor before communication with a microcontroller (FTDI on the nano, an ATMega8U on the uno which is then programmed to bit-bang USB before comms with the ATMega328 powering the uno itself and a few others on 3rd party boards such as the CP2100 series IC's, a few boards don't have USB ports at all and require an external serial adaptor).
Linux can commonly be setup to display the shell over a serial port, the raspberry pi does this by default, by addition of a serial cable between the pi GPIO and another PC (with appropriate adaptors for the 3.3v TTL on the pi and whatever is on the host PC) you can run software such as PuTTY as an alternative to SSH. This is commonly done on servers connected to the internet which may have SSH disabled for security reasons as an attacker would be required to have physical access to the machines.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
Hacky indeed, but then so was my first thought. Latency is an issue, but file systems might *just* do it actually. Would have to think about that a bit more.
I've not heard of USB storage being done through an old fashioned serial/COM port which is what I wanted to use. Some people do still use their old RS232 ports or similar. In my case, I was initially aiming to have a serial terminal which could be attached to a raspberry pi, I was also planning a remote control type app aim at robots powered by arduinos and other microcontrollers. Communication from PC to microcontroller is almost always serial, even the arduino boards which supposedly have a USB port on them then have a USB>Serial adaptor before communication with a microcontroller (FTDI on the nano, an ATMega8U on the uno which is then programmed to bit-bang USB before comms with the ATMega328 powering the uno itself and a few others on 3rd party boards such as the CP2100 series IC's, a few boards don't have USB ports at all and require an external serial adaptor).
Linux can commonly be setup to display the shell over a serial port, the raspberry pi does this by default, by addition of a serial cable between the pi GPIO and another PC (with appropriate adaptors for the 3.3v TTL on the pi and whatever is on the host PC) you can run software such as PuTTY as an alternative to SSH. This is commonly done on servers connected to the internet which may have SSH disabled for security reasons as an attacker would be required to have physical access to the machines.
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Click to collapse
Old AS/400 systems used a serial connection to get to the system controller and the fix was to use the USB to serial dongle. Made for a pain in the butt because very few devices keep a 9 pin serial port on them anymore. (Drivers were a pain to find though). Probably the only way you'll be able to pull that off going further - it seems very (VERY) few boards have the 9 pin serial anymore, even on docking stations.

garwynn said:
Old AS/400 systems used a serial connection to get to the system controller and the fix was to use the USB to serial dongle. Made for a pain in the butt because very few devices keep a 9 pin serial port on them anymore. (Drivers were a pain to find though). Probably the only way you'll be able to pull that off going further - it seems very (VERY) few boards have the 9 pin serial anymore, even on docking stations.
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Click to collapse
Oh I have no problem using a serial port from windows 8 desktop. Microsoft just don't allow its usage from a windows 8 app.
My desktop PC which isnt even 2 years old does actually have both a full RS232 port and parallel port. I also have an FTDI cable (USB > 3.3v TTL serial) which works fine with my laptop, desktop and the pi itself actually (full FTDI drivers under raspbian and windows 8). Both of my arduinos are arduino nano's so also use an FTDI chip (using the same drivers as each other and the cable I have). One of my other microcontrollers is a bit of a pain but you can get it working with windows 8 too, have to disable driver enforcement before you can install them. Regardless, all 3 microcontrollers and on my desktop its native port are listed in device manager as usable COM ports, all of them work fine too.
One place you will still regularly find a DB9-RS232 port is scientific hardware. Many sensors/probes/data collection devices for use with a PC communicate via serial. Older devices (and a few new ones) from a full RS232 connector, some now use 3.3v or 5v instead and a few are advertised as being USB but in reality have USB>serial adaptors of some sort contained within.
Many android devices have a serial port available (usually 3.3v) via the headphone jack (often just sticking a resistor between mic and ground to trigger left and right audio function changes) or USB port (similar technique as the headphones) or more rarely the microSD

If anyone is interested in the podcast I mentioned, Windows Weekly, the URL is: http://leoville.tv/podcasts/ww.xml
In the lastest episode, Mary Jo Foley of here: http://www.zdnet.com/topic-windows/
tends to tell what's going on inside Microsoft. If you listened to back episodes she was talking about Blue right after 8 was released, she spills details really early and they do come true.
The other major host is Paul Thurott on the podcast, who writes here: http://www.winbeta.org/
The last thing they said, just as e.mote calculated, was that the company is in disaray and will slow down significantly since the Nokia acquisition and that it could have been an 8.2 but for a brand refresh they could skip to 9. 9 in that case would be a mixture of returning some of the key 7 features and polishing 8. I'll post here if there's any more, same if you guys know anything! I'm interested to see how this develops.
I remember going to the Win 7 launch at the time. One of the first things the Micro guy said on stage was that 7 was 'Vista fixed'. I couldn't believe he said that on stage. So instead of a fixer service pack they jumped to 7 and it was partially a brand refresh. Who knows now?

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