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I read that the new Motorola Droid X and Droid 2 will have digitally signed bootloaders. Which means that only approved Motorola ROMS can be flashed. I wonder how long it will be before HTC and everyone else starts doing this? This could put an end to all of our fun! Of course the cellular providers will save a lot of money if they don't have to replace all of those bricked phones. It will be interesting to see what happens to the bootloader in future OTA and Froyo updates for the DInc...
this belongs in general
Lexus One said:
This could put an end to all of our fun!
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It will always be a cat and mouse game. Rarely ever ends. We always find another way around.
We should as a community all patition the cell phone companys for a truely open handset.
acezhi said:
We should as a community all patition the cell phone companys for a truely open handset.
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Petitioning? What are you some kind of tree loving hippie? JK That **** never works though. Petitions, protesting, etc is for idiots who think it will accomplish something.
They are even stupider for locking these down. Sure people mess up phones trying to mod them. Now they are making ways for you to totally brick your phone. Don't they think more people will now make insurance claims even more if you try to mod your phone and mess it up.
Moved as not development.
reagianicparable said:
It will always be a cat and mouse game. Rarely ever ends. We always find another way around.
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Possibly. But it takes a hell of a lot longer when you're up against encryption. You usually only win this battle if someone on the inside leaks the key. And by then there are new phones coming out and this keeps getting lower and lower on the priority list. Personally, I don't think we can win the encryption battle...
its not a new thing its a motorola thing... htc likes to give its buyers what they like.. and since we all like it a little different I dont see them locking their bootloader anytime soon... they made the nexus one which is the only true open source phone so far but they messed up on the marketing of it... all 3 phones you mention are motorola and the only htc phone I see with any kind of restriction would be the HTC aria on ATT cause you can't install 3rd party apps but that is due to ATT not HTC restrictions
two_cents said:
its not a new thing its a motorola thing... htc likes to give its buyers what they like.. and since we all like it a little different I dont see them locking their bootloader anytime soon... they made the nexus one which is the only true open source phone so far but they messed up on the marketing of it... all 3 phones you mention are motorola and the only htc phone I see with any kind of restriction would be the HTC aria on ATT cause you can't install 3rd party apps but that is due to ATT not HTC restrictions
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Granted, HTC *may* never lock their bootloader, but what is to stop Verizon from demanding it? Verizon is permitting it in the Motorola. What if this turns out to be a profit maximizer for them? Could HTC next? Time will tell...
I don't see locking up phones as a way to "make money" if anything it will alienate your customer/developer base and no one will buy the phones with the locked bootloaders. Especially if HTC doesn't trend up and continues to be a nice company. Motorola has already LOST A LOT of preorders on there Droid X because of the encrypted bootloader. Doesn't matter...they can't seem to keep them in stock anyway. Good riddens to a WAY to large handset with a crappy UI overlay.
What it boils down to is PROFIT. Verizon will weigh the revenues and decide with their pocketbooks. It doesn't make any difference whether HTC likes it or not. Verizon calls the shots. If HTC says no, they're gone. Samsung or LG or someone else will pick up the slack. As for losing customers, it doesn't matter. Money is what matters. Just ask any of our greed driven cellular companies if you don't believe me. Personally, I don't think there are that many people who re-flash their ROMS and would care if the bootloader is locked or not. I think we are a very small percentage of the total.
Honestly77 said:
I don't see locking up phones as a way to "make money" if anything it will alienate your customer/developer base and no one will buy the phones with the locked bootloaders. Especially if HTC doesn't trend up and continues to be a nice company. Motorola has already LOST A LOT of preorders on there Droid X because of the encrypted bootloader. Doesn't matter...they can't seem to keep them in stock anyway. Good riddens to a WAY to large handset with a crappy UI overlay.
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I think you may be overestimating the percentage of android users who are interested in rooting their phones. Motorola will make a tiny bit less money on phone sales, but they will also lose less money on unnecessary replacements.
TNS201 said:
Petitioning? What are you some kind of tree loving hippie? JK That **** never works though. Petitions, protesting, etc is for idiots who think it will accomplish something.
They are even stupider for locking these down. Sure people mess up phones trying to mod them. Now they are making ways for you to totally brick your phone. Don't they think more people will now make insurance claims even more if you try to mod your phone and mess it up.
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Just adding to it. Not saying petitioning and protesting would work, but:
Petitioning and protesting only work through fear. When it's you > the company, then the company will give in. If we have 20 thousand people say that we want truly open handsets, they still won't, because they know theres another hundred thousand that will still buy it. If they fear that if having a locked handset will make them no sales unless they give in, then they will.
Motorola tried leaving it unlocked with the Driod, but then, for whatever reasons, they locked the bootloader in the X. Why do you suppose Motorola would do this? Do they have incompetent marketing people? Remember they have the numbers...we don't. So we can only guess as to why they chose the way they did. Perhaps Verizon had something to do with it? I can't wait to see what they do to the bootloader in the next OTA for the DI.
Asterdroid said:
I think you may be overestimating the percentage of android users who are interested in rooting their phones. Motorola will make a tiny bit less money on phone sales, but they will also lose less money on unnecessary replacements.
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I agree with the notion that the vast majority of android users are not interested in rooting their phones; however, i think that the frequency with which carriers replace phones bricked due to customization is overestimated. I mean I have flashed customs ROMs, radios, recovery images, etc. onto my N1 and my DI dozens upon dozens of times and never run into a problem that couldn't be fixed with a battery pull and a restore (at the most). In contrast, I bricked three iphone 3GS's in six months while attempting to customize them. Obviously, apple is notorious for locking their **** down, so I am not convinced that the notion that verizon will have to replace fewer X's than, say, DI's holds water
So samsung posted something on their facebook page about what do you dream for. A lot of people have been using this as a platform to let samsung know their disappointment with the whole F word thing. I think its a good idea and maybe if a massive number of people comment we could have some impact..
heres a link
http://www.facebook.com/SamsungGalaxyS
At this point, Samsung is most likely removed from the equation. The update will come from VZW, not Samsung
Kevin Gossett said:
At this point, Samsung is most likely removed from the equation. The update will come from VZW, not Samsung
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Where do you think VZW is getting it from?
I understand that, but VZW already (read: should) has what they need from Samsung. So it's on VZW now.
still in samsungs hands... VZW just says Yey or Ney.. on the software... Samsung does all the programing...
So here's how the process works.
The guys who built the phone program the phones.
Verizon just sells and ensures that the customers get the optimum experience on their phones.
Now if we take this bit of knowledge and combine them, then you will realize that Samsung is responsible for compiling the software then passing it unto Verizon when they have a release candidate. If that passes Verizon's scrutiny, then it becomes released unto us.
DJ05 is an example of what's not supposed to happen because Verizon likes to ensure it's customer support...
Anyways, I hope this was informative.
RacerXFD said:
So here's how the process works.
The guys who built the phone program the phones.
Verizon just sells and ensures that the customers get the optimum experience on their phones.
Now if we take this bit of knowledge and combine them, then you will realize that Samsung is responsible for compiling the software then passing it unto Verizon when they have a release candidate. If that passes Verizon's scrutiny, then it becomes released unto us.
DJ05 is an example of what's not supposed to happen because Verizon likes to ensure it's customer support...
Anyways, I hope this was informative.
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Thank you! I'm learning this stuff little by little... So the real wait is samsungs fault, cause everything they are sending verizon sucks?! Well good :/
I have to respectfully disagree with you, RacerXFD.
It's entirely possible (even likely) Verizon is holding the whole thing up to ensure perfect compatibility with all the VZ services. Even if Samsung is the one having to do the coding work, all the extra work being neccessary in the first place is probably due to Verizon bloatware. The integration between Google's Froyo update and Samsung's specific hardware drivers is unlikely to have taken Samsung any longer for the Fascinate than any of the other Galaxy S phones. But then Verizon insists on the inclusion of Carrier specific crap before they will let Samsung say all done. So Verizon's fault.
Even if Verizon is taking forever to bloat up the Fascinate with their apps, it's still Samsung's fault for delaying the release almost every month. They only just got it to them this month, I'm pretty sure.
The real truth is that we simply don't know exactly who's to blame for the delay.
Could it be all Samsung? Possibly -- the upgrade's been delayed for a lot of the other Galaxy S handsets on other carriers too, which is telling, and Samsung has a terrible history of (not) delivering software updates.
Could it be all Verizon? Also possible -- it's rumored they're borderline overzealous when it comes to updates, and also rumored that they were the reason the Droid 1 took forever to get Froyo.
Or, is it more likely a bit of both? I'd bet it is, just like how Samsung made the dumb decision to weigh down the phones with RFS, while Verizon chose to force Bing on us. Neither party has what I'd call a great track record here.
But, even that is just speculating at this point.
If its Verizon's fault we don't have froyo then why don't any of the other US carriers with Galaxy S phones have froyo? I think there are problems Samsung is still working on. My guess is they want people to buy the Nexus S and have been working in that phone instead if ours.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
Samsung develops, and tests the update on their end.
They send it over to VZW for network/qa testing.
VZW tests (they have a few "levels" of testing, lab tests, and real world), and if they run into any issues, they send it back to Samsung.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
If you want to place blame for the delay, it's on both of their shoulders. VZW is slow in testing, and Samsung obviously is slow in development.
Well, I really think the same issue that plagues our Devs from porting 2.2/2.3 to our phones is the same reason that Samsung/VZW will not release 2.2...
Just a thought.
All these Froyo related threads always end up the same way.
dricacho said:
All these Froyo related threads are a waste of bandwidth and clutter to the forum and should be deleted
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Fixed for you.
P3droid posted some information on the coming lockdown from Moto and Vzw. Please read this and decide where you want to go from there. I for one am SBF'ing right now.
http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/...rooting-manufacturers-carriers.html#post65013
Edit:
The gist of the post is that VZW and Moto are actively going after those of us running non-approved software and even root users. This is probably the cause of the Wifi tether issue.
Again, please read this folks!
Edit:
P3droid updated his post.
I have never been so scared thanks for informing!
yawdapaah said:
P3droid posted some information on the coming lockdown from Moto and Vzw. Please read this and decide where you want to go from there. I for one am SBF'ing right now.
http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/...rooting-manufacturers-carriers.html#post65013
Edit:
The gist of the post is that VZW and Moto are actively going after those of us running non-approved software and even root users. This is probably the cause of the Wifi tether issue.
Again, please read this folks!
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actually if you know the background and read all of it he says its NOT JUST VZW and motorola as htc has been locking bootloaders and having signed images, thunderbolt, soon to be incredible S
Yeah I know I read the whole page and puked litterly. Not kidding.
Not buying any of it, they may try to make it harder but I highly doubt any of this will effect us long term.
For what its worth, Verizon has systems in place already to monitor those who do not pay for tethering (one way is to check the resolution). This doesn't really surprise me however...
With these policy changes and increasing rates the smartphone phone market is really going to slow down. The only reason it grew so quick was due to cheap devices and good data plans. The carriers are really shooting themselves in the foot and will take notice once these sales decline.
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I honestly don't even know how to respond to this. The platform I have supported and loved for some time now for its openness and freedom... is being restricted as we speak. I can't speak for everyone when saying this but, I root my phone just to customize it to my liking. If companies didn't junk up their phones with bloatware and just made the phones for their consumer, this will be solved. The only time i ever use wireless tethering is when i absolutely need to. My droid x (after being rooted and install a custom ROM) is completely capable of doing anything i would need to tether a laptop for. There are some very good points in this thread:
1. Unlimited data IS Unlimited data. Why charge more for tethering when you already pay for unlimited data.
2. You pay A LOT (unreasonable amount) of money for your phone.... IT'S YOURS!!! Why can't you do what you want with it. I understand the argument against this. "Wireless tethering steals data" NO IT DOESN'T. We pay a lot of money for unlimited data. It's required for smartphones on Verizon.
3. The warranty program. I understand there are people that don't know what they're doing when they flash new firmware, and brick their phones. I'm sure there is a simple solution for this. Just restrict those people from getting new phones under the warranty program. Don't punish everyone for customizing their phones to their liking... you know... the phones THEY PAID FOR.
I know there are thousands of people that feel the same as i do on this subject but i need to vent. The Droid X is an amazing phone... physically. If we could get stock Gingerbread on the phone, with no bloatware and motoblur, this phone would be blazing fast and i would have absolutely no need for rooting. As i said before, if the phone is capable of handling certain tasks, there is little to no reason (for me) to teather. I don't know who to be mad at. I used to think Google was amazing. I absolutely love everything they do (android, gmail, docs, chrome, the list goes on). I'm starting to change my mind. They're holding back on honeycomb so that we can't customize that, do we blame them? Motorola locks/encrypts their bootloaders, do we blame them? Verizon takes advantage of having the best service/signal and rapes their customers on the bill (and still wants more for tethering), do we blame them? Should I give in, and be unhappy with my phone as stock 2.2 froyo with tons of bloatware that ill never use and slows down my phone every day? Should i deal with the horribly coded motoblur that slows down my phone more than the bloatware? Maybe i should just go back to a standard style phone and use Boost mobile or something cheap and use use my droid x that I PAID FOR, off network as a multimedia device. That way, "the man" can't tell me what i can and can't do. What is everyone else thinking on this subject? I started to think this petition to motorola for the locked bootloader may actually make an impact. I'm begining to think now that we're making an impact in the wrong direction that we want.
Edit: On a (related) side note: As i was sbf'ing and flashing new firmware the other night, I had a lot of trouble activating my phone. I had to wait until the next morning to do so. I don't know if this has any relation or if verizon was just having technical difficulties.
yawdapaah said:
P3droid posted some information on the coming lockdown from Moto and Vzw. Please read this and decide where you want to go from there. I for one am SBF'ing right now.
http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/...rooting-manufacturers-carriers.html#post65013
Edit:
The gist of the post is that VZW and Moto are actively going after those of us running non-approved software and even root users. This is probably the cause of the Wifi tether issue.
Again, please read this folks!
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Click to collapse
Unfortunately this is not isolated to just VZW and Moto, this will pertain to all carriers and all device manufacturers.
sdicker89 said:
Edit: On a (related) side note: As i was sbf'ing and flashing new firmware the other night, I had a lot of trouble activating my phone. I had to wait until the next morning to do so. I don't know if this has any relation or if verizon was just having technical difficulties.
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it was probably just the network ive sbf'd like 5 times the past few days and sometimes it doesnt want to cooperate this happen occasionally when i was factory resetting my droid eris back in the day also if it fails just skip it if u can and dial *22899 same thing just does it automatically instead of calling and having to choose it out of a list. this would never hold up in court because of the definition of unlimited. its so broad verizon wouldnt stand chance. its about like bottled water why the **** would you pay for it wen its free. i think its high time the community put their collective minds (and money) to come against verizon with a class action lawsuit. oh wait recently LOL was accepted into the oxford english dictionary i think next up is verizon trying to get the definition of unlimited changed to "what we think is appropriate". its like going to a buffet, you pay for all of it and as much as you want. then going up for ur 4th plate of dessert and getting told no sir the $5 doesnt include THAT much.
Funnyface19 said:
it was probably just the network ive sbf'd like 5 times the past few days and sometimes it doesnt want to cooperate this happen occasionally when i was factory resetting my droid eris back in the day also if it fails just skip it if u can and dial *22899 same thing just does it automatically instead of calling and having to choose it out of a list.
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I used to have that problem ALL the time with my droid eris. Never really happens with my droid X and i'm constantly sbf'ing and flashing roms, especially lately with the GB leak and drew garen roms for the GB leak.
Ok, after reading some of P3droid's twitter, im hoping this isn't just drunk talk. This better not be another hoax like the unlocked bootloader a little while back from someone else. Im really getting fed up with all this drama/rumor stuff going down.
Excellent point(s) sdicker89. I'm with you 100%. Besides, I really think this issue would have a lot more publicity if were completely true.
This is a pretty big issue and would have a huge impact on the whole market.
I think I remember a rumor a while back similiar to this. I think only time will tell tell...
Sent from my DROIDX using XDA Premium App
DroidzFX said:
With these policy changes and increasing rates the smartphone phone market is really going to slow down. The only reason it grew so quick was due to cheap devices and good data plans. The carriers are really shooting themselves in the foot and will take notice once these sales decline.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App
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Click to collapse
Playing devil's advocate here, but would it be so bad if the smartphone market shrank? I am just one of many people who believe the industry took a huge downturn one these phones became so cheap and plentiful.
Devices that were once reserved for the "tech crowd" are now in the hands of people who could barely use a Razr 3 years ago. Which brings us 180d back around to the warranty/tethering/rooting.
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Sent from my Gingerbread-powered Droid X using a full featured version of Tapatalk, better known as Forum Runner.
I honestly don't know what to make of this. There has been so much childish drama going on in the community as of late it's getting out of hand. Hopefully we aren't just getting ' trolled' like the unlocked bootloaders several weeks ago.
I've thought about it for a bit after reading this post and I can honestly say I don't want my smart phone without at the very least having root access. The phone is filled with tons of apps that I can't even remove? Honestly, don't add 20 bloatware apps if I can't remove them. I also really love SetCPU. Without that my battery life is ****.
Maybe if people in the community were literate enough to read 10 simple directions we wouldn't have this problem, but who knows. I'm still reluctant to believe all of s. If they, solidly, know who is rooted and who isn't what can they do? I'm not SBF'ing to stock. I paid for this phone and until they lock it down I'll do whatever I want with it.
Sent via Droid X
They can't dictate how we use our devices.
What if Dell, HP, Compaq, etc forbade its customers from uninstalling all the bloat that comes installed on OEM machines? Or worse, penalized the end user for uninstalling Windows, and installing Linux instead?
Lawsuit.
This is my phone, and as long as I make my payments every month I can do with it as I damn well please.
And as far as the data is concerned I pay for UNLIMITED data. Unless they are using a different dictionary than I am, unlimited means no cap. Not unlimited up to a certain amount.
There is documentation some where, forgive me not remembering where I read it, but when AT&T discontinued their unlimited data plan for new customers and gave them a 2GB cap each month, they admitted that only 2% of their customers EVER went over that.
So as a last resort Verizon, employ the same rules for your new customers to keep your data overages in check, but leave my phone alone.
But you know what, it will probably happen. They will indeed impose these restrictions and you know what we will do? ***** about it, and nothing else. We will share our discontent to each other on this forum and call Google, and VZW blood sucking bastards while sitting on our hands with our bottom lip stuck out, and go about our business.
If this happens its because we let it. Plain and simple.
Scottbg1 said:
They can't dictate how we use our devices.
What if Dell, HP, Compaq, etc forbade its customers from uninstalling all the bloat that comes installed on OEM machines? Or worse, penalized the end user for uninstalling Windows, and installing Linux instead?
Lawsuit.
This is my phone, and as long as I make my payments every month I can do with it as I damn well please.
And as far as the data is concerned I pay for UNLIMITED data. Unless they are using a different dictionary than I am, unlimited means no cap. Not unlimited up to a certain amount.
Right. But one thing is wondering how do we BLOCK VERIZON FROM KNOWING that we are happily rooted?
There is documentation some where, forgive me not remembering where I read it, but when AT&T discontinued their unlimited data plan for new customers and gave them a 2GB cap each month, they admitted that only 2% of their customers EVER went over that.
So as a last resort Verizon, employ the same rules for your new customers to keep your data overages in check, but leave my phone alone.
But you know what, it will probably happen. They will indeed impose these restrictions and you know what we will do? ***** about it, and nothing else. We will share our discontent to each other on this forum and call Google, and VZW blood sucking bastards while sitting on our hands with our bottom lip stuck out, and go about our business.
If this happens its because we let it. Plain and simple.
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Right. But one thing is wondering how do we BLOCK VERIZON FROM KNOWING that we are happily rooted?
If they mess with me I'll take my 3 phones all with unlimited data plans and move to sprint... Nexus s here I come lol.
Plain and simple this is my phone I'll do with it what I please I pay for insurance every month never returned a device except my moms droid iris because the track ball quit working right.
I am running rooted gb I don't tether and I plan to keep doing what I'm doing if they don't want my business that's a choice formthem to make unless I'm forced to make it for them.
My dad always says companies work for us we pay them.
DroidzFX said:
With these policy changes and increasing rates the smartphone phone market is really going to slow down. The only reason it grew so quick was due to cheap devices and good data plans. The carriers are really shooting themselves in the foot and will take notice once these sales decline.
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Click to collapse
Pda sales are up 22% this year...
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Its really not that big of a deal... Sure 9 out of 10 phones are going to be locked down now.
However there will always be google experience devices like the Nexus line where its a requirement for them to be unlocked with no carrier intervention.
All thats going to happen is the general public will keep doing what their doing and all of us will end up with nexus phones
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
https://twitter.com/Motorola/status/607934001500852224 so yeah, fellow Turbo owners. Lets blow this up tonight and show we arent a tiny fragment of Moto users. Or not. The reality is we need to make our voices heard. Maybe Moto will listen. Probably not. But hey, its live. Might be fun.
Stock is... stock. It's the closest thing to vanilla android without buying a nexus, which is what I wanted.
If you wanted something more exciting, you should've bought a more exciting phone.
I'm guessing that the OP means an unlocked bootloader and root access for custom ROMs, that kind of stock boring like stuffs...
SirBindy said:
Stock is... stock. It's the closest thing to vanilla android without buying a nexus, which is what I wanted.
If you wanted something more exciting, you should've bought a more exciting phone.
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Click to collapse
Indeed. Unfortunately, I didn't buy this phone. Moto sent it as a replacement for my Dev Maxx. The Turbo owners that dont have the same mentality perhaps would agree. it blows to be stuck if you want more than that out of android. isnt that what android is supposed to be? open, free?
@Wynnded is hitting the nail on the head. best hardware ive owned. the software is my qualm.
here is the reality, though: Bootloader unlock isnt allowed due to Verizon not wanting to give support (and replacements) once the inexperienced do something dumb. (flash wrong device files, delete partitions that are necessary, etc). while i can understand that angle, i, and most people that frequent this site, am/are knowledgeable enough to not end up with a brick, and also, in that event, would never turn to VZW or Moto for help, as they are useless. Aesthetically, this phone is great. Hardware (minus those pesky qfuses) this is a great device. i love the Turbo. Having no justifiable reason for bootloader unlock to be disallowed is just bad business. our very small, in representation and subsequent consideration group accepts these practices. i for one, will buy no more Moto devices, period after this one, unless they remember what a developer edition Droid is. if i have to buy a license, or void my warranty, so be it. Both Verizon and Moto should care about the impact to the brand.
Want to help? Cool. Dont? also cool. Just remember, no one ever changed anything for the better sitting by complacently. #unlockthedroids
edit: okay, so perhaps i should have said no more Moto on VZW, as I cannot stand the thought of not having their antennae quality..
#pacifists
Easy fix
What they should do is allow you to opt out of manufacturer warranty and insurance in trade for unlocks. I would happily give those things up as I have such a rare need for them especially in the days of glass screen protectors and repair options
kitcostantino said:
here is the reality, though: Bootloader unlock isnt allowed due to Verizon not wanting to give support (and replacements) once the inexperienced do something dumb. (flash wrong device files, delete partitions that are necessary, etc). while i can understand that angle, i, and most people that frequent this site, am/are knowledgeable enough to not end up with a brick, and also, in that event, would never turn to VZW or Moto for help, as they are useless. Aesthetically, this phone is great. Hardware (minus those pesky qfuses) this is a great device. i love the Turbo. Having no justifiable reason for bootloader unlock to be disallowed is just bad business. our very small, in representation and subsequent consideration group accepts these practices. i for one, will buy no more Moto devices, period after this one, unless they remember what a developer edition Droid is. if i have to buy a license, or void my warranty, so be it. Both Verizon and Moto should care about the impact to the brand.
Want to help? Cool. Dont? also cool. Just remember, no one ever changed anything for the better sitting by complacently. #unlockthedroids
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Click to collapse
Yes but your qualms have been discussed IN LARGE with Verizon multiple times in the past. The locked bootloader has NOTHING to do with Motorola. Hence why all their other devices outsize VZW are unlockable. Getting verbal with VZW or Moto will do literally nothing. You're not the first one to try and "change the world". Here's the simple break-down - VERIZON WOULD RATHER NOT CARRY THE DEVICE AT ALL THAN ALLOW THE BOOTLOADER UNLOCKED ON THEIR NETWORK. PERIOD. They would also 100% rather you leave their network than unlock a device. They've made it very very very very very VERY clear. If you threaten to "unlock my bootloader or I'm gone!" they'll gladly sweep your a$$ right out the door and laugh at you the whole way out. The second thing you're misinterpreting is that while it may seem the rooting/roming crowd is large and lots of people on XDA etc, fact of the matter is that Verizon has 135,000,000 subscribers. 135 MILLION!! Guess how many actually want an unlocked bootloader? Lets say there are thousands!? Lets say 10,000 (very largely over-exaggerated number). That means that even if you manage to get to that 10,000 figure, you're thinking that 0.000074% of users are going to think they're verbal/angry enough to change the policy...... Think again. Its partially why the Nexus 4 and Nexus 5 devices were shunned away by VZW, and one (of the many) issues they had with the Galaxy Nexus. Also why they tried to not carry the Nexus 7 (remember that wonderful delay?).
Don't get me wrong, I probably want unlocked bootloaders more than you do. But don't buy devices from VZW expecting anything other than what the delivered software configuration will allow you. Be thankful you were even given the option of a Nexus 6, it'll likely be the last unlockable device for another 3 years.
I had started typing and quoting in a douchebag fashion that reminded me of someone else. ( @LeoD you know what i mean)
The short version is this, man. I didn't buy the Turbo. I was "upgraded" to it. (see above). Do I think i make a difference directly? nope. I think I am (and most of us here as well are) the kind of person who drives tech outlets to report new devices. I am the guy everyone I know asks first what to buy. Sure, my $100/month isnt much. Ultimately, I am a customer. You want my business or you dont. When I shelled out $700 for a Dev Edition, I had that in mind. I could have bought anything. I chose Moto. I chose Verizon because their network is superior. There always is a balance or tradeoff. Moto dev sucks? Cool. Next. HTC? Sony? Samsung? LG? We have no shortage of hardware. I can learn to live with Wifi. Hell, i don't answer my phone when it rings most of the time. As far as the hooplah about Nexus devices and Verizon, the one thing to look at is the fact that the Nexus 6 is completely unlockable and unfettered on VZW. We can thank google for that, though, i am sure. I would love a Nexus 6 at this point.
I may want bl unlock just a hair more than you, brother.
TechSavvy2 said:
Y the matter is that Verizon has 135,000,000 subscribers. 135 MILLION!! Guess how many actually want an unlocked bootloader? Lets say there are thousands!? Lets say 10,000 (very largely over-exaggerated number). That means that even if you manage to get to that 10,000 figure, you're thinking that 0.000074% of users are going to think they're verbal/angry enough to change the policy...... Think again. Its partially why the Nexus 4 and Nexus 5 devices were shunned away by VZW, and one (of the many) issues they had with the Galaxy Nexus. Also why they tried to not carry the Nexus 7 (remember that wonderful delay?).
Don't get me wrong, I probably want unlocked bootloaders more than you do. But don't buy devices from VZW expecting anything other than what the delivered software configuration will allow you. Be thankful you were even given the option of a Nexus 6, it'll likely be the last unlockable device for another 3 years.
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Small numbers can have big business impact. See social media. An act such as shaming on Twitter CAN have larger PR consequences, especially if other tech media take up the refrain.
Some businesses actually LOOK for alpha individuals (there's word I can't find right now) who help shape decisions of people in their social circle and they get freebies to plug that company. Some early YouTube "shopping stars" cashed in on that. Same concept.
Verizon may be huge and arrogant, but T-mobile is the young/hip crowd. If Verizon wants to change that perception -- perhaps if the T-mobile/Dish merger goes through and causes more competition -- then Verizon would consider some adjustments for a people like us who spread word of mouth to friends/relatives about what to buy/not to buy.
I am extremely surprised the Nexus 6 is not only allowed on Verizon (thank the FCC), but sold by Verizon (not sure why).
I had started typing and quoting in a douchebag fashion that reminded me of someone else. ( @LeoD you know what i mean)
Rotflmao!!
I had a difficult time keeping my coffee down while reading this.
On topic tho, I also believe we should not just go quietly into the night. Big changes are almost always started in small numbers. Thankfully.
The problem is that VZW does not want to give customers anything that they could charge them for. Which really is odd that they don't let us buy a bootloader unlock, but odds are that it would be less revenue then what they make off selling tethering. If it came with less drawbacks for them then positives they would let us unlock in a heartbeat. VZW is a full slave to the $ pound, and won't do a dang thing unless it gets them more $.
Sadly I speak cooperate a bit better than I wish I did, so I bet it would end up being something like this to unlock your bootloader.
- Must not have unlimited data plan.
- Must have tethering data plan.
- Void any and all warranty
- $50 one time pay for Verizon device bootloader unlock.
- Device must be fully paid for.
- Must install custom Verizon recovery.
I'm sure they would think of something else to tack onto it so as to cost us more $.
TechSavvy2 said:
The locked bootloader has NOTHING to do with Motorola.
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All Moto has to do is designate or sell a Developer Edition to comply with the agreement VZW and Moto have in regard to Bootloader Unlock. Well, and grow a pair against VZW and sell to all the other carriers. I bet they are kicking themselves for making any concessions for Verizon looking at the global sales of the Moto Maxx xt1225 versus the Droid Turbo.
TechSavvy2 said:
VERIZON WOULD RATHER NOT CARRY THE DEVICE AT ALL THAN ALLOW THE BOOTLOADER UNLOCKED ON THEIR NETWORK. PERIOD.
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NEXUS 6 what?
TechSavvy2 said:
They would also 100% rather you leave their network than unlock a device. They've made it very very very very very VERY clear. If you threaten to "unlock my bootloader or I'm gone!" they'll gladly sweep your a$$ right out the door and laugh at you the whole way out.
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Yes. Me and my $100/month *can* in fact go elsewhere. No big loss to their corporate dividends. Ultimately, I am their customer, and if they have no interest in retention (i have no delusion here, man), then my money will be spent elsewhere.
TechSavvy2 said:
The second thing you're misinterpreting is that while it may seem the rooting/roming crowd is large and lots of people on XDA etc, fact of the matter is that Verizon has 135,000,000 subscribers. 135 MILLION!! Guess how many actually want an unlocked bootloader? Lets say there are thousands!? Lets say 10,000 (very largely over-exaggerated number). That means that even if you manage to get to that 10,000 figure, you're thinking that 0.000074% of users are going to think they're verbal/angry enough to change the policy......
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Indeed, if my intent were to speak sharply and pound my fist at them, there would be no reason to make such a small subset of people happy. My intent, however, is to plant seeds in the minds of others. In an average year, I advise somewhere in the realm of 20-30 people on phones, services, etc. The majority of our minute subset of users who want control of their device all likely do the same. Come to think of it, I would almost bet that out of our users, the majority are the go-to person that friends, family, colleagues, and often in my case, total strangers may be advised out of chance. Perhaps my $$ isn't worth that much. Our word of mouth, however, is taken by those ask for it to be valid.
Social media, also, is a beautiful tool for conveyance. Has a bit of a magnified result when trying to make others aware.
TechSavvy2 said:
Think again. Its partially why the Nexus 4 and Nexus 5 devices were shunned away by VZW, and one (of the many) issues they had with the Galaxy Nexus. Also why they tried to not carry the Nexus 7 (remember that wonderful delay?).
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And despite all of that, the VZW Nexus 6 is unfettered, bootloader unlockable, and all.
TechSavvy2 said:
Don't get me wrong, I probably want unlocked bootloaders more than you do.
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I am starting to doubt that one, man. lol.
TechSavvy2 said:
But don't buy devices from VZW expecting anything other than what the delivered software configuration will allow you.
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From earlier in the thread:
kitcostantino said:
Indeed. Unfortunately, I didn't buy this phone. Moto sent it as a replacement for my Dev Maxx.
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TechSavvy2 said:
Be thankful you were even given the option of a Nexus 6, it'll likely be the last unlockable device for another 3 years.
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I would be ecstatic to have a Nexus 6 at this point. Again, I didn't choose the Turbo. Just got stuck with it.
The reality is, while we might be "lucky" to have the N6 as an option, we are the customers. We are not required to keep our service where it is. We are not required to endorse the manufacturers we do. I love Moto. Moto can play the game of appeasement with Verizon if it just has to be a "Developer Edition" to have bl unlock. A phone can be rebranded whatever "dev edition" with an accessory package and a decal and still hold to the terms of their agreement. Hell If there are so few of us, why not. Not like we are going to need anything from Verizon. (help? whats that?)
Not trying to be a richard, dude. Just reminded myself of an annoying ace person w/ all the quotes. @LeoD you feel me.
At the end of the day, it makes no real difference. I just know the products and services I will and will not be telling my mostly tech-inept friends, family, colleagues, to grab when, as they always do, they ask. Motos phones and Verizon's network have always been at the top of that list. All kings (and emperors) fall eventually from such lofty heights.
Edit #472:
Technogen said:
The problem is that VZW does not want to give customers anything that they could charge them for. Which really is odd that they don't let us buy a bootloader unlock, but odds are that it would be less revenue then what they make off selling tethering.
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They would never have sold Developer Editions if this were their mentality. The things that are supported as rationale (if you dig a bit) are the sheer cost of support coupled with wanting us to only be so happy with our devices for so long. BL unlocked Turbo? I might keep it for 3 years like my OG (bl unlocked!) Droid. Tethering, while a way to generate extra revenue is $20/month. I never use it, but i have pushed 31 gb in a month before flashing roms. (man i miss msm8960dt builds) Users like us use incredible amounts of data. There is always a new rom, android version, etc.
Technogen said:
If it came with less drawbacks for them then positives they would let us unlock in a heartbeat. VZW is a full slave to the $ pound, and won't do a dang thing unless it gets them more $.
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I honestly think replacing idiots phones and playing sherpa for the tech inept is as costly as initially argued. The exclusiveness of the Dev Editions prevents the average Joe from buying them, saving countless labor hours, replacements, etc.
Technogen said:
Sadly I speak cooperate a bit better than I wish I did, so I bet it would end up being something like this to unlock your bootloader.
- Must not have unlimited data plan.
- Must have tethering data plan.
- Void any and all warranty
- $50 one time pay for Verizon device bootloader unlock.
- Device must be fully paid for.
- Must install custom Verizon recovery.
I'm sure they would think of something else to tack onto it so as to cost us more $.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only reason I am still with Vzw as of right now is unlimited. I havent changed my plan or gotten a subsidized phone since 2008 when i was forced into paying $30/month whether i wanted to or not. Warranty voiding is standard, unless Moto does, in fact, create Dev edition licenses.
The $50 fee is reasonable. I would even double it. VZW couldnt unlock bl and force a recovery on you, though. fastboot flash recovery.img
I get where youre going with it, though. Verizon (and any good corporation) does what is in its best interests first, customers, next.
I too speak corporate. You always have to have growth. The reality is you never want to lose any customers. Losing the crazies that don't pay their bill, cuss you out, demand things for free just because they are magical snowflakes is a totally justifiable loss. Losing the dorks like me that pay their bill, buy phones at full price, and refer others continuously is not such a good thing. Immediate effects? nope. But here i am posting on a site with (i imagine a couple) of like-minded people of the same or better skill-set.
If they sent you it as a replacement and you are unhappy with the device you should either terminate your contract as they moved outside of it by giving you a different device, or move to a different phone like the Nexus 6. You didn't get stuck with anything, you just choice to not fight for a different option.
after 2.5 months of bs with Moto "Support" i was in effect told that was as good as it gets. "Nexus is not an option" was said more times than I care to count. I even bought another phone to use in the meantime, just to be able to wait it out. Again, I have had no contract since the time before Android. Principle is the only thing that bound me to either VZW or Moto up until now.
OK so we have established that moto/vzw will be motivated to allow unlock when it would make them more money than it would cost them. What about if it gains them loads of excellent PR? What if we attacked it from the angle of "future developers" that are being held back because they can't unlock the device they have so they can learn mobile development and possibly change the world / develop the next big thing / improve themselves. And they can't afford the "dev" edition phones that they have to pay full price for. Maybe a social media campaign with a tagline like "unleash the developers of tomorrow " and #unleashtheDOT ? We all know a simple rallying cry can bring people in who may not fully understand but know enough to know it's a good thing and if it spreads far enough (and things that could help people - especially young people - learn tend to spread) they will have to respond.
Absolutely! the whole #unlockthedroids thing kind of fell flat. so did the petition. Then Mofo happened and everyone became content. Personally, I like the angle. I do see a couple of caveats within trying to get them to unlock subsidized phones that will likely prove insurmountable, but I do have a background in media production...
[ 5 year old watching Dad play Angry Birds...Mom calls dad into other room...Kid A picks up phone/starts to press buttons/is delighted when the UI responds. Accidentally stumbles into About Phone and presses Build Number 7 times. Mouths word/ "Developer?" ..
[scene fades, camera centered, zooming in to the word "Developer"...
[Camera tight, zoomed, scrolls through 10 calander years with glimpses of (Moto if ya ask me) phones and android wearables as double frame images spliced in, seasons, and typical holidays meshed in as well.] Kid A, now 15, runs out to the mailbox and grabs a box out of it.
Runs inside the house and pulls out components for Moto Ara-esque modular. Kid A assembles phone in a few swift movements. Then places it on the table. He says, "Wake up."
[The phone speeds through an intense boot ani for 3 seconds, then halts]
[The phone projects on the wall the homescreen, and is navigated by the hand the kids watch is on with swipes in the air. Kid A smiles sinisterly as he loads Angry Birds. ]
[Black screen with white text: "The Developers of tomorrow are taking their first steps in Android today. The possibilities are endless if these minds can grow these seeds into something more."
[secondary scene of 2020]
Kid A goes to mailbox, opens it up. Runs inside. Pulls out block phone. Swipes (manually) through screens. Tries to change colors, and a big lock and skull/crossbones pops up. NOT ALLOWED!! in bright red letters. kid throws phone in drawer. (with Turbo. lol)
#unleashtomorrow
#droiddoesntdev
ha ha. i am only partially kidding, man. this is doable.
hotrodwinston said:
OK so we have established that moto/vzw will be motivated to allow unlock when it would make them more money than it would cost them. What about if it gains them loads of excellent PR? What if we attacked it from the angle of "future developers" that are being held back because they can't unlock the device they have so they can learn mobile development and possibly change the world / develop the next big thing / improve themselves. And they can't afford the "dev" edition phones that they have to pay full price for. Maybe a social media campaign with a tagline like "unleash the developers of tomorrow " and #unleashtheDOT ? We all know a simple rallying cry can bring people in who may not fully understand but know enough to know it's a good thing and if it spreads far enough (and things that could help people - especially young people - learn tend to spread) they will have to respond.
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The PR of it wouldn't matter to most people. Last time I saw something on it the average user has downloaded 6 apps to their phone, most pull run with what ever the phone has installed on it. So in the end people just won't care if devs can do something or not. This is just the sad reality of it.
Technogen said:
The PR of it wouldn't matter to most people. Last time I saw something on it the average user has downloaded 6 apps to their phone, most pull run with what ever the phone has installed on it. So in the end people just won't care if devs can do something or not. This is just the sad reality of it.
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You don't attack it from the standpoint of what devs can do but from the standpoint of young people learning - also people in general learning a new skill that could change their lives - this policy of locking things down is preventing people from learning and may be holding back the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates.
I love vanilla android. I hated my S4 until I figured out how to put vanilla on it. The only reason why I decided to get a Turbo knowing that the bootloader was locked was because it's basically vanilla. I wish more phones were vanilla. So I won't be yelling at Motorola anytime soon, but that's just me.
I'm a sprint user and I'm torn between getting this and the HTC U11.
I'm concerned about the openness of the device and how supportive it is to a proprietary carrier like Sprint. I've read around but it's month old information so I just wanna make sure:
Is it true that due to the phone's poor sales, there are very little developers?
Being a sprint user, do I have to worry about my own firmware/OS/ROMs/whatever, or can I just flash something like Lineage or Slim and be completely fine across all variants?
As well, is the signal/gps/etc safe if I do a complete OS change like stock to Lineage?
There's a lot of information about stock firmware and open bootloader, there's articles saying that they're currently public but around here I see that they "have yet to be released". Does the lack of awareness have to do with lack of devs or am I missing something?
Sorry if it's questions asked a ton of times but I just want to make sure I have up to date information before I commit to anything, I'm unfortunately a little paranoid. I love the open source community, so I wanna make sure I can utilize it with a pure android experience in even a locked down carrier like sprint. Thanks for the help.
Fivavoa said:
I'm a sprint user and I'm torn between getting this and the HTC U11.
I'm concerned about the openness of the device and how supportive it is to a proprietary carrier like Sprint. I've read around but it's month old information so I just wanna make sure:
Is it true that due to the phone's poor sales, there are very little developers?
Being a sprint user, do I have to worry about my own firmware/OS/ROMs/whatever, or can I just flash something like Lineage or Slim and be completely fine across all variants?
As well, is the signal/gps/etc safe if I do a complete OS change like stock to Lineage?
There's a lot of information about stock firmware and open bootloader, there's articles saying that they're currently public but around here I see that they "have yet to be released". Does the lack of awareness have to do with lack of devs or am I missing something?
Sorry if it's questions asked a ton of times but I just want to make sure I have up to date information before I commit to anything, I'm unfortunately a little paranoid. I love the open source community, so I wanna make sure I can utilize it with a pure android experience in even a locked down carrier like sprint. Thanks for the help.
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You're a little late to the party. You just missed an awesome deal on the phone through Sprint. Today they changed the deal, however if you intend to remain a Sprint customer for the next 18 months, the deal can still be good for you.
Since nobody else has replied so far, and I've been living on XDA ever since I ordered my first Essential, I'll try to answer your questions (plus I don't have anything else to do right now).
"Supportive to a proprietary carrier like Sprint"? Not sure exactly what you mean, it works well on Sprint but it's not a Sprint-only device if/once it's unlocked.
I believe the lack of development is due to the phone being a new phone from an entirely new company combined with a relatively small following at this time. Plus the marketing isn't very good. I've been looking for a phone exactly like this for months and I hadn't heard about until a week ago when I was doing a Google search for new and interesting phones for the 15th time. Also, invisiblek is currently working on Lineage for the phone, and I hear he's really good at what he does.
Why would you have to worry about your own firmware/OS/ROM? My phone, on Sprint, already got two OTA updates. I hear the unlocked ones get updates faster. Once ROMs are available, they should work on Sprint and non-Sprint phones just the same. From what I've read, the hardware is all the same.
Signal/GPS/etc will depend on how good the ROM is, just like any other phone.
Also not sure what you mean about the experience you'll have with a locked down carrier like Sprint. My phone (from Sprint) has stock android with zero bloatware. Well, I take that back, it automatically downloaded one Sprint app when I got home, but I immediately deleted it and it let me. Sprint phones have an unlockable bootloader just like non-Sprint phones. I wouldn't have gotten a Sprint version otherwise. I don't see how anything from Sprint will stop you (and me) from having the same experience I've had on my Moto X2 Pure Edition, which was notorious for having a 99% stock Android experience and an unlockable bootloader out of the box. If anything, the Essential has an even more pure Android experience because my Moto had it's special Moto Actions and the apps that went with them. Though I REALLY wish the Essential had the Moto Actions... I'd be in heaven then.
Maybe I'm looking at it differently because every phone I've ever had has been open and unlocked for development and I don't know what it's like to not be able to root or flash a custom recovery and a new ROM. But If that's what you're worried about, dive in.
Thanks for responding, I'll try to elaborate further:
DrvLikHell said:
"Supportive to a proprietary carrier like Sprint"? Not sure exactly what you mean, it works well on Sprint but it's not a Sprint-only device if/once it's unlocked.
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I have a family member who was with sprint for longer than I was, and when I went to look into the development of his phone, they usually separated development of every other phone and sprint's phone. Where the non-sprint alternative got a lot of development, the sprint version stayed pretty inactive. I'm just verifying that it's not the same with the Essential.
DrvLikHell said:
Why would you have to worry about your own firmware/OS/ROM? My phone, on Sprint, already got two OTA updates. I hear the unlocked ones get updates faster. Once ROMs are available, they should work on Sprint and non-Sprint phones just the same. From what I've read, the hardware is all the same.
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Yes that's one aspect I was rather confused about, from the reason stated above and other examples I've ran into the past, some carriers lock down their devices and I didn't know if Sprint was the same. It's good to know if I "unlock" the device then I get similar treatment despite being on Sprint. I don't wanna feel left out because I chose a carrier that holds me back y'know?
DrvLikHell said:
Also not sure what you mean about the experience you'll have with a locked down carrier like Sprint. My phone (from Sprint) has stock android with zero bloatware. Well, I take that back, it automatically downloaded one Sprint app when I got home, but I immediately deleted it and it let me. Sprint phones have an unlockable bootloader just like non-Sprint phones. I wouldn't have gotten a Sprint version otherwise.
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I hope I'm not starting to sound redundant but again, but I had a few bad experiences with other carriers who lock down their devices for everything even though it's rather open otherwise. I'm just making sure haha
Thanks for the info.
This phone is what most developers have been pushing for... good hardware, a progressive company and an unlocked bootloader! I would hope that the developers jump on this phone. If not we may never have the opportunity again. IMHO
Fivavoa said:
Thanks for responding, I'll try to elaborate further:
I have a family member who was with sprint for longer than I was, and when I went to look into the development of his phone, they usually separated development of every other phone and sprint's phone. Where the non-sprint alternative got a lot of development, the sprint version stayed pretty inactive. I'm just verifying that it's not the same with the Essential.
Yes that's one aspect I was rather confused about, from the reason stated above and other examples I've ran into the past, some carriers lock down their devices and I didn't know if Sprint was the same. It's good to know if I "unlock" the device then I get similar treatment despite being on Sprint. I don't wanna feel left out because I chose a carrier that holds me back y'know?
I hope I'm not starting to sound redundant but again, but I had a few bad experiences with other carriers who lock down their devices for everything even though it's rather open otherwise. I'm just making sure haha
Thanks for the info.
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Ok, I get where you're coming from now. Like when I was into the Samsung Galaxy S3. Each phone from ATT, TMO, VZW and Sprint had different configurations, different roms and different bootloaders. The VZW S3 bootloader is still not unlockable and is stuck at Android 4.4.2, while the TMO S3 has Android 7.1 via Lineage available for it.
In that respect, the Sprint version of the Essential will have the same developer support that the unlocked version will have. All the bootloaders are the same and are equally unlockable because all the phones are the same. If I remember right, there are a couple labels somewhere in the phone that differ, but that's all. There is just one phone to rule them all, and this is it.