Database Users

[Q] Wifi Help!!!!!

My Dell Venue Pro will not log onto my secured Wifi Connection. When I type in the password at hit "done" it tells me "your phone couldnt reach the wi-fi network" However, when my network is 'open' (not secured) it connects just fine. I am using an apple air port extreme. I am really confused.
Any ideas?

I doubt you are the only one. I read a comment on Engadget where someone reported a wifi problem as well.

Fear not, you are not alone. My brother has the same issue on his. We both have a Venue Pro, and a WPA secured network. My phone can connect to the network no problem, his will always fail. The only way it will work is on an unsecured connection. Not sure who to contact for support since we're on the bleeding edge here, but I think it'll be sorted shortly and hopefully easily.

Aw come on Dell and Microsoft!
WIFI problem? Unbelievable!

Arcarsenal said:
Fear not, you are not alone. My brother has the same issue on his. We both have a Venue Pro, and a WPA secured network. My phone can connect to the network no problem, his will always fail. The only way it will work is on an unsecured connection. Not sure who to contact for support since we're on the bleeding edge here, but I think it'll be sorted shortly and hopefully easily.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have the same problem too on 2 Venue Pro's that I have! I tried changing my router encryption settings to WEP, WPA, WPA2, Mixed(does all 3), and none of the settings worked. The only way is with no encryption. And on top of that, there is no way to touch any wi-fi settings other then just selecting the access point and giving it a password I really hope this can be resolved via an update and its not because of a bad phone!

richlee111 said:
I have the same problem too on 2 Venue Pro's that I have! I tried changing my router encryption settings to WEP, WPA, WPA2, Mixed(does all 3), and none of the settings worked. The only way is with no encryption. And on top of that, there is no way to touch any wi-fi settings other then just selecting the access point and giving it a password I really hope this can be resolved via an update and its not because of a bad phone!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you have MAC address filtering enabled perhaps?

frustrated
No I don't have MAC filtering on my wifi network. just the normal WPA/WPA2. My wife's HD7 comes in the mail today and if she doesn't have an issue with it, I may go back to the Microsoft store here in Denver and do any exchange.
I am glad I am not the only one with issues here though. I will try calling Dell or the Microsoft store and see if they can offer any help

From reading various posts on other sites, it seems that it's definitely an issue with the DVP in general - everyone seems to be reporting that it won't connect to an secure network, only an open one. How Dell have managed to drop the ball this badly is beyond me. I've been waiting for this phone since it was announced, but with the lack of info, seeming lack of SD card slot now, and wifi that doesn't work to boot, I'm seriously thinking I'll just go for a different phone!

dacunto said:
No I don't have MAC filtering on my wifi network. just the normal WPA/WPA2. My wife's HD7 comes in the mail today and if she doesn't have an issue with it, I may go back to the Microsoft store here in Denver and do any exchange.
I am glad I am not the only one with issues here though. I will try calling Dell or the Microsoft store and see if they can offer any help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd be very surprised if the HD7 has any issues, got one for my wife at the weekend, and it took all of about a minute to get it up and running on my wireless network with WPA2 (and about 45 seconds of that was disabling mac address filtering to add it, and then re-enabling the filter!!).

rob_p said:
I'd be very surprised if the HD7 has any issues, got one for my wife at the weekend, and it took all of about a minute to get it up and running on my wireless network with WPA2 (and about 45 seconds of that was disabling mac address filtering to add it, and then re-enabling the filter!!).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Damn, well looks like I am going to the HD7 unless I am offered a fix by Dell/Microsoft. I excused the 8GB memory because I have a larger zune and i hoped someone braver than I would take off some of the screws behind the batter cover and find a SD card slot (like the HD7). But i cant tolerate Wifi problems (cant leave my network unsecured).
Looks like I am heading to the Microsoft store after the UPS man comes with my wifes phone and doing an exchange for the HD7.

It's a real shame. Don't get me wrong, all new phones will haev teething problems, but the initial reports of the Dell really aren't good - a phone like this HAS to be spot on in terms of connectivity, that's the whole point of it. Otherwise they should call it a dumbphone.

yep and I am noticing some cracking in the speaker, like its blown or something. Shame, i really was excited for this phone

Guess they wont be ditching their blackberry's as soon as they thought if their employees cant get on their network.

If some of you do go back to the Microsoft store, please tell me how well your exchange goes. My feeling is that since there are so few Venue Pros out there it might be hard to make an exchange at this time...
I'm hoping that since this phone will get all the support it needs since it's going to be widely adopted by business users.

Hi,
ive had similair issues to this running on android in the past. The way around it for me was using one of these conversion tools like so:
corecoding.com/utilities/wep2hex.php (cant link as the forums wont allow it)
whilst thats for WEP and you said you were using WPA i assume theres a similair conversion tool of some sorts? Not saying its going to work by any means - just that my android phone needed the passphrase converting and entering in HEX in the past so may be worth researching before claiming wifi is totally broke on the dell
Carl.

carlb007 said:
Hi,
ive had similair issues to this running on android in the past. The way around it for me was using one of these conversion tools like so:
corecoding.com/utilities/wep2hex.php (cant link as the forums wont allow it)
whilst thats for WEP and you said you were using WPA i assume theres a similair conversion tool of some sorts? Not saying its going to work by any means - just that my android phone needed the passphrase converting and entering in HEX in the past so may be worth researching before claiming wifi is totally broke on the dell
Carl.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the help, but the fact remains, we (I) shouldn't have to do any of these steps to fix the wifi. It should "just work"

Dell not helpful
I called Dell customer service and they couldnt help my at all. I had to explain to three difference reps what a Venue Pro was
Next step is the Microsoft store. I will update when I done there.........cant go till UPS comes to my house though.

Shame to hear about the lack of Dell support. Maybe they'll know a bit more when they starting selling it themselves.

nope, no mac filtering. it should be pretty clean.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App

Hopefully it's just a bad batch. Wifi and a crackly speaker would mean a no go for me as well. I really dont want the HD7, though.
I was planning to just use WP7 as a toy and stuff (until it matured more) at home and work with Wifi only. So it's possible I could just buy a Focus for that.

[Q] My Experience with the WP7/Samsung Focus

Hey Guys;
So this is my rant about the Samsung Focus. I'll try to keep this brief.
I've been a huge fan of the Zune HD and since day one I've said that I'd switch if they ever add phone features (I was on a 3Gs at the time.)
So enter WP7; I LOVE the UI SOOO much that even though it's missing some really key things I was willing to overlook that and still got the Focus.
- I called AT&T to make sure they'd let me unlock it BEFORE I bought it because I'm taking a trip to Europe for a few months so I need to be able to use their local SIM. AT&T said "NO problem!" Once I got the phone however it turned into "We're not allowing it to be unlocked for 6 Months" (AT&T Sucks)
- It was suppose to take 15 minutes to active, it took 2 days (AT&T sucks)
- found out that WP7 doesn't connect to wireless networks that don't broadcast SSIDs (MS is clueless!) UPDATE: I take this one back... Still a pain, but maybe I'm being harsh...
But even after all these ridiculous issues that had me calling AT&T OVER AND OVER again, I was willing to keep the Phone....
Then came the deal breaker....
Since this is a really new OS from MS, They're supporting the newest exchange servers (2008) and if you're company doesn't have those new exchange servers dependable account syncing isn't in your future! mad:) I've been able to get it to sync, but it errors out before it finishes and then it's unstable. Shooting errors out all the time. Came across this forum: http://tinyurl.com/focus-outlook
So now I'm about to crawl back to the OS I abandoned (android)
Worse of all; I put my 32Gb MicroSD card in the Focus and although it works great, I can't figure out how to format it and get it usable on other devices again. Only the focus can see it now... (has someone come across a fix for that yet?)
So there you have it... I'm not having a good phone week...

kcasante said:
Then came the deal breaker....
Since this is a really new OS from MS, They're supporting the newest exchange servers (2008) and if you're company doesn't have those new exchange servers dependable account syncing isn't in your future!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Firstly, the lastest Exchange is 2010 If you're not already on it, you really need to! It's awesome!
My Omnia 7 synched up first time, I really didn't expect it to be able to deal with the client certificate, but it seems to handle it all invisibly. I'm very, very, (VERY!), impressed by how flawlessly it has worked.
If you're not on Exchange 2010, you need to get your company into the Microsoft Partner Network and you will get licences for nearly all of the latest software. We jumped a version (from 2003 to 2010) and the improvement is gobsmacking. Exchange 2010 is so much more efficient, the servers are flying!

Smoothound said:
Firstly, the lastest Exchange is 2010 If you're not already on it, you really need to! It's awesome!
My Omnia 7 synched up first time, I really didn't expect it to be able to deal with the client certificate, but it seems to handle it all invisibly. I'm very, very, (VERY!), impressed by how flawlessly it has worked.
If you're not on Exchange 2010, you need to get your company into the Microsoft Partner Network and you will get licences for nearly all of the latest software. We jumped a version (from 2003 to 2010) and the improvement is gobsmacking. Exchange 2010 is so much more efficient, the servers are flying!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes Smoothound, you're right it is 2010; my mistake.
And as for my company switching; I don't think I have any pull in that department. I don't think it's a good idea to call them out on the internet. Lets just say this is a company thats known worldwide as a household name ( and also just bought a dying phone brand due to their OS) I'm actually surprised that they're behind on that tech but I have no way of incluencing an upgrade unfortunately. I'm sure it's in the works but for when I need it, it's too little too late...

ActiveSync is working fine for me on Exchange 2003 without any issues at all. So, no, you don't have to be on the latest version of Exchange.

I'm pretty sure I have Exchange 2003 here (I know it's not 2010 or 2008) and it works just fine. The first time thru it wouldn't download images that were embedded in email but I'd pretty sure that was because of the half-assed network I was using at the time. When I got home and connected to my own network, did a hard reset and set it all up again, mail worked fine. No errors, nothing, just email. I read the same thing about the iPhone 4, too, but it works fine against my server, also.

markgamber said:
I'm pretty sure I have Exchange 2003 here (I know it's not 2010 or 2008) and it works just fine. The first time thru it wouldn't download images that were embedded in email but I'd pretty sure that was because of the half-assed network I was using at the time. When I got home and connected to my own network, did a hard reset and set it all up again, mail worked fine. No errors, nothing, just email. I read the same thing about the iPhone 4, too, but it works fine against my server, also.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So now I'm really confused...
And when I set it up the first time it worked well too! All emails Contacts, and Calendar updates were flawless...
I have my corporate mail synced on my phone and iPad so when a mail comes in they all ding at the same time... Somewhere along the line, the focus stopped digging and I haven't gotten it back stable since....
When i set up the account automatically it has no problems finding my account but eventually errors out after pulling down some emails and contacts...
I can set it up manually but it doesn't make a difference.
I really don't want to return this thing because the only other phone thats useable on AT&T in my opinion is the iPhone 4 (or the Captivate) and I REALLY don't want to go back down that dark path
Any suggestions guys?

kcasante said:
So now I'm really confused...
And when I set it up the first time it worked well too! All emails Contacts, and Calendar updates were flawless...
I have my corporate mail synced on my phone and iPad so when a mail comes in they all ding at the same time... Somewhere along the line, the focus stopped digging and I haven't gotten it back stable since....
When i set up the account automatically it has no problems finding my account but eventually errors out after pulling down some emails and contacts...
I can set it up manually but it doesn't make a difference.
I really don't want to return this thing because the only other phone thats useable on AT&T in my opinion is the iPhone 4 (or the Captivate) and I REALLY don't want to go back down that dark path
Any suggestions guys?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It has to be your Exchange infrastructure. I have tested the phone with Exchange 2003, 2007 & 2010 and they all work flawlessly. I'm an IT consultant and I have used my Focus to make sure it is compatible with my customers networks so that I can recommend it.

The only thing I'm sure is unusual about my set up is that since it's a dev system and it's just me using it for mail, I don't use SSL and have it turned off at the phone. Everything else is entirely straightfoward. I would think Microsoft would have decent integration between two of their own products BUT the phone is a Rev 1 system. You might take a look around the MS support site to see if anyone has had problems and if there's a reason and/or correction you can take. I second the thinking that it's probably something with your server and/or network but that's about the best I can do.

We are using Exchange 2007 and it works without a problem after the policy was corrected. Windows Phone 7 will not sync if the policy requires your phone to encrypt or strong unlock password (alphanumeric password). Our admin made a Windows Phone 7 policy for these items. Considering you cannot take the microsd out and it wont sync to desktops.. the encrypt is not a big deal.

In this thread the guy says going back and re-enter the information might work:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=833863&page=2
This happened to me as well. We have an Exchange 2003 server and what I did was go to "email and accounts" on the phone and went through the proccess and setup everything correctly but still got the error messages.
Now this is what fixed my issue (strange). I got out of the "email and accounts" and went into all programs list and opened "Outlook" , from there I put the settings in again for my account and presto, it just started working and syncing.
I did 2 phones likes this already and it works. Dont ask me how, but it does.
Hope this helps OP and anyone else using Exchange 2003.

kcasante said:
So now I'm really confused...
And when I set it up the first time it worked well too! All emails Contacts, and Calendar updates were flawless...
I have my corporate mail synced on my phone and iPad so when a mail comes in they all ding at the same time... Somewhere along the line, the focus stopped digging and I haven't gotten it back stable since....
When i set up the account automatically it has no problems finding my account but eventually errors out after pulling down some emails and contacts...
I can set it up manually but it doesn't make a difference.
I really don't want to return this thing because the only other phone thats useable on AT&T in my opinion is the iPhone 4 (or the Captivate) and I REALLY don't want to go back down that dark path
Any suggestions guys?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm wondering if that additional microsd card you've in the Focus is causing you issues. I would remove the card, and hard reset the phone. Put in your Exchange info again and see if it doesn't work fine after that.

kcasante said:
Hey Guys;
So this is my rant about the Samsung Focus. I'll try to keep this brief.
I've been a huge fan of the Zune HD and since day one I've said that I'd switch if they ever add phone features (I was on a 3Gs at the time.)
So enter WP7; I LOVE the UI SOOO much that even though it's missing some really key things I was willing to overlook that and still got the Focus.
- I called AT&T to make sure they'd let me unlock it BEFORE I bought it because I'm taking a trip to Europe for a few months so I need to be able to use their local SIM. AT&T said "NO problem!" Once I got the phone however it turned into "We're not allowing it to be unlocked for 6 Months" (AT&T Sucks)
- It was suppose to take 15 minutes to active, it took 2 days (AT&T sucks)
- found out that WP7 doesn't connect to wireless networks that don't broadcast SSIDs (MS is clueless!)
But even after all these ridiculous issues that had me calling AT&T OVER AND OVER again, I was willing to keep the Phone....
Then came the deal breaker....
Since this is a really new OS from MS, They're supporting the newest exchange servers (2008) and if you're company doesn't have those new exchange servers dependable account syncing isn't in your future! mad:) I've been able to get it to sync, but it errors out before it finishes and then it's unstable. Shooting errors out all the time. Came across this forum: http://tinyurl.com/focus-outlook
So now I'm about to crawl back to the OS I abandoned (android)
Worse of all; I put my 32Gb MicroSD card in the Focus and although it works great, I can't figure out how to format it and get it usable on other devices again. Only the focus can see it now... (has someone come across a fix for that yet?)
So there you have it... I'm not having a good phone week...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My company uses Exchange 2003 and I have had NO issues.. Works very well. Curious, what version of Exchange?

Sorry to hear about your issues. If I were consulting you prior to this I would have indicated that corporate users should let early adopters take first swing at the phone before you go for it but it sounded like you were willing to go through some pain.
As for the SSID, I wanted to comment that I think it is sort of unfair you are indicating that MS is clueless on that front. I have read many things from the wireless alliance and they seem to have been saying for more than just a few years (2006) that hidden SSID creates more problems that it solves and that it is not a true security feature. Here is a security analysts take on it: http://blogs.technet.com/b/steriley/archive/2007/10/16/myth-vs-reality-wireless-ssids.aspx
So anyway, as the industry updates it's standards, MS will continue to push those standards, hidden SSID is not a standard and is actually confusing to other wireless networks and traffic congestion resolution problems.

Rename title of thread
I think the title of this thread needs to be renamed.

AllTheWay said:
I think the title of this thread needs to be renamed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No worries; It's done.

Thresher said:
Sorry to hear about your issues. If I were consulting you prior to this I would have indicated that corporate users should let early adopters take first swing at the phone before you go for it but it sounded like you were willing to go through some pain.
As for the SSID, I wanted to comment that I think it is sort of unfair you are indicating that MS is clueless on that front. I have read many things from the wireless alliance and they seem to have been saying for more than just a few years (2006) that hidden SSID creates more problems that it solves and that it is not a true security feature. Here is a security analysts take on it: http://blogs.technet.com/b/steriley/archive/2007/10/16/myth-vs-reality-wireless-ssids.aspx
So anyway, as the industry updates it's standards, MS will continue to push those standards, hidden SSID is not a standard and is actually confusing to other wireless networks and traffic congestion resolution problems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So here's the update...
I find that if I set the exchange account to check for mail every 15 minutes instead of push, it seems to be more stable... Although this is really weird (cause the same config on my iPad and my Evo 4G for that matter seems to work flawlessly) I'm just going to deal with it. Although my statements at the begining of this post was somewhat hard on the phone I will say again; I really LOVE the UI. and the Display is amazing... So much so that I'll deal with the crap I think it's missing for a while.
Here's to hoping MS is as agressive with their updates as they've said they're going to be.
Thanks for all the input guys.

*WARNING* Unlocking to other network BREAKS MMS

To anyone intending to buy an Omnia7 and unlock it to put on another network...
BEWARE - MMS WILL NOT WORK.
Theres no way to change MMS settings for your new carrier.
I bought one a couple of days ago, and fell into this trap. The phone is going back as a consequence.

MMS and other network settings can usually be configured via SMS. I'd call the new provider first and ask them to send you such a message. The phone should act on the information automatically.
Let me know if this works.

at45 said:
MMS and other network settings can usually be configured via SMS. I'd call the new provider first and ask them to send you such a message. The phone should act on the information automatically.
Let me know if this works.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good suggestion, but we already tried that. They sent two SMS, neither were received. Standard SMS works fine.
I assume Wp7 cannot be configured in this way

You must use an app that can configure those options or try to find them on the test app of the Samsung...
This is because carriers block the auto configuration that WP7 makes use with the card you have inserted.
HTC made an app for that and i think LG can be configurated on the MFG app...

Necroman_AI said:
You must use an app that can configure those options or try to find them on the test app of the Samsung...
This is because carriers block the auto configuration that WP7 makes use with the card you have inserted.
HTC made an app for that and i think LG can be configurated on the MFG app...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it appears Samsung also made an app, but me, and all the reviewers on the marketplace cannot get it to work. I'm left with a phone which can't support MMS. Very frustrated :-(

scoob101 said:
it appears Samsung also made an app, but me, and all the reviewers on the marketplace cannot get it to work. I'm left with a phone which can't support MMS. Very frustrated :-(
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats really bad! Well i'm sure carriers will eventually get a WP7 configuration later, but can you try to obtain support from Samsung on the non working app?

Necroman_AI said:
Thats really bad! Well i'm sure carriers will eventually get a WP7 configuration later, but can you try to obtain support from Samsung on the non working app?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will have a go with Samsung, but I`m not holding out much hope. It appears the carrier (Three) is blocking the configuration application from working. The only other thing I can think of is flashing the firmware with a stock samsung version. Anyone know if thats a possibility??
I`ve just been down to the 3 shop, and they won`t accept the phone back, because its been unlocked, funnily enough they didn`t mention this when I bought the phone and told them I`d be using it on O2.... I`ll speak to trading standards as well.
The saga continues.

scoob101 said:
I`ve just been down to the 3 shop, and they won`t accept the phone back, because its been unlocked, funnily enough they didn`t mention this when I bought the phone and told them I`d be using it on O2.... I`ll speak to trading standards as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you bought it in store and it's not faulty and is fit for purpose then they don't have to do anything as far as I'm aware. If you bought it remotely (online/phone) then you can return it without giving a reason within 14 days.
But since you've unlocked it that returns guarantee won't apply anymore as it's not in the condition it was in when sold. Your only grounds would be a fault or not fit for purpose, and the purpose was to work on the 3 network which I assume it does. And in neither case would they be obliged to give you a refund, just a replacement (which presumably would be locked to 3 again).
If I were you, I'd ask your preferred service provider (the new one) to re-flash it in their service centre, as that'll probably be their version of the firmware with their MMS settings. There will probably be a charge since they didn't supply the phone.
Have you checked if the Samsung Diagnostics tool can help you out?

I have a T-Mobile UK phone unlocked and I'm using it on AT&T in the US. I have the same problem.
Everything else works great on the phone (including 3G) but not MMS.

I think I can help you relock it again.
Please try *7465625*638*XXXXXXXX#
which XXXXXXXX is an random number or the code you got from me before

Try doing a factory reset on the phone while you have the new SIM you want to use in the phone.

delphimon said:
Try doing a factory reset on the phone while you have the new SIM you want to use in the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea, tried that, no dice.
We`ve decided to keep the phone, despite MMS not working (its a gift for my wife). Sh`ll email pictures instead, which is annoying but hopefully a fix for this will come out soon.

Data Too?
Apologies if this may seem like a dumb question, but is accessing data (e.g. 3g) on your unlocked phone (on a different sim) also affected or is it just MMS?
Cheers,
Asim

I thinks these issues only happend on locked phones that were unlocked after or even unlocked ones that carriers sell. This is because the carriers are blocking the autoconfig of WP7 for MMS and other stuff. I sure thought that MS would not allow this kind of stuff...

To be fair, who still actually uses MMS?
You just bought a phone that is heavily oriented around data plans.
Emails are free, MMSs are not.
No offence intended here.

Antiskunk said:
To be fair, who still actually uses MMS?
You just bought a phone that is heavily oriented around data plans.
Emails are free, MMSs are not.
No offence intended here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats pretty much what I thought when I herd you couldn't MMS.
not that I've ever sent one
But it is another dirty trick the Mobile TelCo's are playing on us.
I've tried the Samsung Network Profile app with O2, Giffgaff, T-Mobile, Virgin, Tesco, 3 and Orange sims all with the same result...
'This Application can't be launched with your Mobile Operator'

Yup. My phones mostly been living off Wifi
Didn't think many people bought smartphones for the "phone aspect" heh
Data connection when i'm out.
Few phone calls.......whatever they are now.....

Antiskunk said:
To be fair, who still actually uses MMS?
You just bought a phone that is heavily oriented around data plans.
Emails are free, MMSs are not.
No offence intended here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With respect, my wife uses MMS, and as its her phone, its not unreasonable for her to be able to use that function, is it????
Yes, she can use email to achieve a similar function, but you will already know that MMS has some distinct advantages over email (auto resizing pictures, compatibility with phones which don`t support receiving email, push delivery to all devices).
For these reasons, your implied assertion that MMS and Email are interchangable, is a long way off the mark.
Oh, and emails are not free - they consume your data allowance. I don`t know the price differential is between MMS charges, but my point is they aint free.
I`m sorry if this comes across as shirty, but implying that this isn`t a problem is not very helpful.

i have the same problem, do you guys have a solution for this...

guys,
i have found the following solution of the internet and i need your advise:
MFG is a hidden admin app on the phone. Here are the steps -- !!! use at your own risk !!!:
1. Go to the phone app
2. Dial ##634# and click Send
3. When prompted for a password type 277634#*#
4. You should now be at "Factory Menu"
5. Choose "Engineer Menu"
6. Choose "Other Setting"
7. Verify that "Set ADC" is set to Enable
8. From the "Other Setting" page, choose "Set network profile"
9. You should now be on the "Set network profile" page and in the bottom half of the window you should see a list of *.xml files. These appear to be the network configuration files.
10. Look at the filenames for the config files and take your best guess at which one to choose for your provider. I'm on AT&T and I fixed the MMS problem by choosing "_PROV_ATT_US_310_410.xml"
After you choose that *.xml profile, your MMS should be working.
what do you think ???????????????

Mobile AP

Don't know if this is new or not, but I cant recall seeing it before, but when you open the Mobile AP tethering app, it says something about contacting At&t to sign up for a special plan in order to use it?
What is THAT all about? It's been working for me since I first installed a 2.2 rom over a month ago and this evening for some reason, my PS3 and my computer both lost connection. I go to the Mobile AP app which has been powering both devices and I see this At&t crap and now my connection to both no longer works?!?!
Anyone with insight on this?

Are you on AT&T...?
-bZj

The same thing was happening to people who were using tethering apps from the market.
I'm just gonna take a stab in the dark on this one. My understanding is that the only way a carrier can tell if your tethering is based on watching your http:// activity. In other words, are you browsing mobile sites or full sites. I think the only people they'd even look for are heavy users.
Probably what happened is that they realized (through traffic) that you were hitting up http:// and assume your tethering. The only thing you could probably do is to call them and tell them you aren't tethering. Do you get the message if you use something like the SkyFire Browser to go to say the full blown facebook website?

KWKSLVR said:
The same thing was happening to people who were using tethering apps from the market.
I'm just gonna take a stab in the dark on this one. My understanding is that the only way a carrier can tell if your tethering is based on watching your http:// activity. In other words, are you browsing mobile sites or full sites. I think the only people they'd even look for are heavy users.
Probably what happened is that they realized (through traffic) that you were hitting up http:// and assume your tethering. The only thing you could probably do is to call them and tell them you aren't tethering. Do you get the message if you use something like the SkyFire Browser to go to say the full blown facebook website?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They can actually tell packet by packet if it originated as a phone packet or a tethered data packet. When tethered the phone acts as a modem and it identifies the traffic as modem traffic. They are designed to hit different APNs and the header of the packets themselves are by design dead giveaways. It is rudimentary networking for them to route or track this traffic differently. This said they usually don't bother to worry about it much unless they see abuse from a particular account.
I would bet this is a glitch and is not intentional. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

down8 said:
Are you on AT&T...?
-bZj
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I suppose it would make sense to me if I was on AT&T, but I'm on T-mobile lol.
That's the confusing part!

T mobile has been blocking people lately as well...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

Had it during the onyx/obsidian era of roms... never had an issue actually using the mobile ap. I think it was just the rip of the settings app from samsung. It's gone on nero, and I wouldn't worry about it.

Had those issues on the 2.1 custom ROMs. Since Nero, no disconnects whatsoever. Be it wired or wireless tether.

T313C0mun1s7 said:
They can actually tell packet by packet if it originated as a phone packet or a tethered data packet. When tethered the phone acts as a modem and it identifies the traffic as modem traffic. They are designed to hit different APNs and the header of the packets themselves are by design dead giveaways. It is rudimentary networking for them to route or track this traffic differently. This said they usually don't bother to worry about it much unless they see abuse from a particular account.
I would bet this is a glitch and is not intentional. It will be interesting to see how this develops.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's what my non-technical brain was trying to say. A buddy of mine explained it to me the exact same way but added that running a script to look at http traffic might be easier than sniffing packets? And most likely a carrier probably wouldn't go looking for it in accounts that aren't being bandwidth hogs. (Although he's an IT Network Guru and not a cell expert and admittedly made some assumptions). Thanks for the info.
I tether seldomly (I have a MiFi for work) but a couple of months back I tethered through the Vibrant one Saturday and streamed over 6 gigs of video from ESPN360. I never heard a peep out of them (I'm usually right around a gig/month).

KWKSLVR said:
That's what my non-technical brain was trying to say. A buddy of mine explained it to me the exact same way but added that running a script to look at http traffic might be easier than sniffing packets? And most likely a carrier probably wouldn't go looking for it in accounts that aren't being bandwidth hogs. (Although he's an IT Network Guru and not a cell expert and admittedly made some assumptions). Thanks for the info.
I tether seldomly (I have a MiFi for work) but a couple of months back I tethered through the Vibrant one Saturday and streamed over 6 gigs of video from ESPN360. I never heard a peep out of them (I'm usually right around a gig/month).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In networking we have what we call the 7 Layer OSI model. Layer 1 is the physical media, Layer 2 is hardware such as the MAC address, At layer three you get into IP and routing, all the way up to Layer 7 which is application and you can actually filter based on the program being run, for example you can deny any traffic to or from uTorrent.
In enterprise networking Layer 7 gear is now quite common. I am not sure what level T-mobile is using in their switching equipment, but I do know that telling if the traffic is phone or modem is all the way down at the hardware layer. So no packet sniffing would be required. All they need to do is set a policy in the equipment and it will get enforced automatically. Doing it on a customer by customer basis is slightly more complicated as it has to involve the billing system. The billing system is where they are going to control all the non-global settings. This is why they let non-abusers go. Technically stopping you is trivial, but it is not the network admins making the decision, so it becomes part of the can of worms that is politics, policy, and customer service.

Well now that's one hell of an explanation!

KWKSLVR said:
Well now that's one hell of an explanation!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you. As a Tech I am very well versed in networking and computers with a lot of specific experience in Stand Alone Wireless & Wireless as a service provider, Fiber-to-the-home, Voice over IP, multi-scope/multi-tenant office building as phone and Internet provider, and I even did the worlds first (un-offical) VoIP over Wireless in a production environment. The reason I have had the fun and fortune of getting to do these types of projects though is because I really shine in being able to make the really technical stuff that causes most peoples eyes to gloss over actually make sense to non-technical laypersons. Also, I do it without giving wrong or too overly simplified information.
I think everyone at some level likes to know how stuff really works, they just don't want to have to learn and entirely new paradigm to do it.

Well all is well again. Mobile AP is working fine. Don't know what happened yesterday, but it's all good now.
Thanks for the replies.

what is nero
what is Nero are you talking about the burning software or somthing different?

pjbbigbear44 said:
what is Nero are you talking about the burning software or somthing different?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Head over to the Vibrant Android Development section. Nero is just one of many Vibrant ROMs. Check them out.

They're looking at the HTTP "USER AGENT" string folks.
It APPEARS that they're only doing it on "newer" accounts and/or data options. Thus far. Incidentally, if they start doing it on those of us with legacy data plans (e.g. "Total Internet") they're going to lose those customers, as we were explicitly sold those plans with the understanding and explicit support of tethering that they built into the devices they sold through "Internet Sharing" (e.g. on the MDA, etc.) Same with "Loyalty Android" that many of us converted to before Tethering became "an option".
It's cool to change the rules for later signups and users, but a serious problem if they try to impose it on people who have been customers for a long time under the previous understanding. And most of us, myself included, are off-contract.
I don't abuse it but if they do it to me I'll be gone in literal minutes.

Genesis3 said:
They're looking at the HTTP "USER AGENT" string folks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd be interested to find this out definitively. They could check USER_AGENT and they can definitely see if multiple devices are nat'd behind the phone. But I don't know of anything they can use to see if just ONE device is behind a nat'd gateway aside from checking USER_AGENT and making an educated guess.
Wonder if we can get iptables to mangle the HTTP_USER agent or something to that effect.

There are ways around the user agent check (with the proper browser), but they may cause your computer to display web sites in a "mobile" format.

My cable modem went down for a couple of days and while I waited for the cable company to come out I used my Mobile AP. I've been using it on and off during some of my many travels either by using the Mobile AP or by using one of the other apps that someone made.
I have never been charged more for using it and have only been warned of the throttling, which actually never happened. If there was any slow down I would just jump down to 2.75G and go from there.

WARNING! Do not update to 8.1 if your phone is CDMA

HTC 8X/8S
HUAWEI W1
Confirmed brick after 8.1 developer update with CDMA network.
Lumia 822 Verizon
Confirmed no problem if you use GSM/WCDMA.
If you have already bricked your phone, try this:
1.Power down phone by pressing Power button.
2.Press Power button and Volume +/- button at the same time, phone will go to flash mode.
3.Press Camera button for 5 seconds to power off your phone.
4.insert a GSM/WCDMA SIM card in your phone and turn on phone.
It seems that 8.1 not compatible with CDMA SIM card.

reker said:
HTC 8X/8S
HUAWEI W1
Confirmed brick after 8.1 developer update with CDMA network.
Lumia 822 Verizon
Confirmed no problem if you use GSM/WCDMA.
If you have already bricked your phone, try this:
1.Power down phone by pressing Power button.
2.Press Power button and Volume +/- button at the same time, phone will go to flash mode.
3.Press Camera button for 5 seconds to power off your phone.
4.insert a GSM/WCDMA SIM card in your phone and turn on phone.
It seems that 8.1 not compatible with CDMA SIM card.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have it on my htc 8xt and its working fine. Well I am having lockscreen issues but the network is working fine for me on sprint.

starsoccer9 said:
I have it on my htc 8xt and its working fine. Well I am having lockscreen issues but the network is working fine for me on sprint.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the problem with me no wifi
no mobile data

That is so far from something you could call a "brick" it's not funny. "Brick" means un-recoverable. If you can "un-brick" something without diassembling it or at least using hardware a normal user couldn't have access to, it's not a brick!
Also, has anybody else actually had this problem? A few people seem to indicate that they have *not*...

No problems what-so-ever updating and running on my Odyssey...other than taking forever to download and install.

Working fine in my Lumia Icon from Verizon.

No cellular data after hard reset
I by no means have a brick, but I do now have an issue. Here’s what happened.
I have a Sprint ATIV S Neo, GDR3, Interop-unlock, the whole deal.
Installed the 8.1 update yesterday, and everything was working. I have been playing with all kinds of “stuff” in the registry and such, so I decided that since I had just installed 8.1 I would start fresh and do a hard reset. I don’t really care about keeping interop-unlock at this point. Even with it, so much is still locked down. I’m sure in the future someone will get this cracked and we can really have fun, but until then, just being developer unlocked is good enough.
So, when I got home I reset the phone (power+volume down, exclamation point, then the remaining sequence).
Phone boots back up, and I connect to my WiFi and set everything back up. I think life is wonderful at this point. Then decide to test my 4G download speed so I turn off wifi.
Oops, no cellular data, phone calls and text are fine (didn’t try mms, but probably doesn’t work, blank url in the provisioning). Tried all the usual tricks (##72786# and such). I have my msl, so I go into the provisioning, and things look messed up. My MDN and MSID are 000003872. That makes no sense, so I set them back to the correct values and still no go.
Called Sprint. They ran me through all the usual things that I had already done (hour on the phone with them).
Long story short: The activation program seems to be missing from my phone. Hands free activation never tries to start, in fact, after hard resetting again and watching closely, during setup it says “Activate your device can’t be opened”. And the network settings are missing from the settings menu.
So after work I’m going to take it to Sprint and hopefully they have a factory image they can flash (hopefully an older version so I can update things myself).
My thinking is that the 8.1 update is basically the new rom, but during install doesn't delete the existing carrier programs. When I hard reset, all that got re-installed was the strictly Microsoft stuff, not the carrier specific items i.e. hands free activation.
PS Sorry about the novel...

GoodDayToDie said:
That is so far from something you could call a "brick" it's not funny. "Brick" means un-recoverable. If you can "un-brick" something without diassembling it or at least using hardware a normal user couldn't have access to, it's not a brick!
Also, has anybody else actually had this problem? A few people seem to indicate that they have *not*...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC confirmed this yesterday, they awared the problem and contacting with MS. Announcement by HTC China
The problem covered both HTC 8s(A620D) and 8x(C620d)
8X/8S have similar but more serious problem with gdr1 - gdr2 upgrade last year, even can't boot into SPL.
By the way, to normal users, if their phone turn into black screen and can't boot, it's a brick. No one will care about if it's a real brick, what they know is: I can't use my phone, it's not working, just like a brick.

fgr said:
I by no means have a brick, but I do now have an issue. Here’s what happened.
I have a Sprint ATIV S Neo, GDR3, Interop-unlock, the whole deal.
Installed the 8.1 update yesterday, and everything was working. I have been playing with all kinds of “stuff” in the registry and such, so I decided that since I had just installed 8.1 I would start fresh and do a hard reset. I don’t really care about keeping interop-unlock at this point. Even with it, so much is still locked down. I’m sure in the future someone will get this cracked and we can really have fun, but until then, just being developer unlocked is good enough.
So, when I got home I reset the phone (power+volume down, exclamation point, then the remaining sequence).
Phone boots back up, and I connect to my WiFi and set everything back up. I think life is wonderful at this point. Then decide to test my 4G download speed so I turn off wifi.
Oops, no cellular data, phone calls and text are fine (didn’t try mms, but probably doesn’t work, blank url in the provisioning). Tried all the usual tricks (##72786# and such). I have my msl, so I go into the provisioning, and things look messed up. My MDN and MSID are 000003872. That makes no sense, so I set them back to the correct values and still no go.
Called Sprint. They ran me through all the usual things that I had already done (hour on the phone with them).
Long story short: The activation program seems to be missing from my phone. Hands free activation never tries to start, in fact, after hard resetting again and watching closely, during setup it says “Activate your device can’t be opened”. And the network settings are missing from the settings menu.
So after work I’m going to take it to Sprint and hopefully they have a factory image they can flash (hopefully an older version so I can update things myself).
My thinking is that the 8.1 update is basically the new rom, but during install doesn't delete the existing carrier programs. When I hard reset, all that got re-installed was the strictly Microsoft stuff, not the carrier specific items i.e. hands free activation.
PS Sorry about the novel...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i got the same issue with my ativ s.
everything works except mobile data.
is there some settings i can try since i didnt do a hard reset but the normal reset from the phones "about" menu.
my network is WIND greece.

fgr said:
I by no means have a brick, but I do now have an issue. Here’s what happened.
I have a Sprint ATIV S Neo, GDR3, Interop-unlock, the whole deal.
Installed the 8.1 update yesterday, and everything was working. I have been playing with all kinds of “stuff” in the registry and such, so I decided that since I had just installed 8.1 I would start fresh and do a hard reset. I don’t really care about keeping interop-unlock at this point. Even with it, so much is still locked down. I’m sure in the future someone will get this cracked and we can really have fun, but until then, just being developer unlocked is good enough.
So, when I got home I reset the phone (power+volume down, exclamation point, then the remaining sequence).
Phone boots back up, and I connect to my WiFi and set everything back up. I think life is wonderful at this point. Then decide to test my 4G download speed so I turn off wifi.
Oops, no cellular data, phone calls and text are fine (didn’t try mms, but probably doesn’t work, blank url in the provisioning). Tried all the usual tricks (##72786# and such). I have my msl, so I go into the provisioning, and things look messed up. My MDN and MSID are 000003872. That makes no sense, so I set them back to the correct values and still no go.
Called Sprint. They ran me through all the usual things that I had already done (hour on the phone with them).
Long story short: The activation program seems to be missing from my phone. Hands free activation never tries to start, in fact, after hard resetting again and watching closely, during setup it says “Activate your device can’t be opened”. And the network settings are missing from the settings menu.
So after work I’m going to take it to Sprint and hopefully they have a factory image they can flash (hopefully an older version so I can update things myself).
My thinking is that the 8.1 update is basically the new rom, but during install doesn't delete the existing carrier programs. When I hard reset, all that got re-installed was the strictly Microsoft stuff, not the carrier specific items i.e. hands free activation.
PS Sorry about the novel...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No need to apologize for the novel! I did the SAME exact thing as you (except I hard resetted via settings > about > more info > reset your phone). Luckily I know my MSL, and have my MSID handy. I wiped my settings by doing ##72786# and selecting ok twice. I rebooted my phone manually and then went to the 'activate my device' app in settings. It did what looked like a profile update and it said my phone was successfully activated with my phone number listed.
I can browse the web on Sprint's network, make/receive calls and send/receive texts. The only thing I can't figure out to fix is MMS. I can't get or send picture mail, group texts or any kind of MMS at all.
I've managed to get my coworkers settings from his ATIV S Neo but I can't figure out how to edit them on my phone. Going into ##3282# doesn't let me edit things that deeply.
From what I've heard on other forums is that we're basically SOL unless Sprint releases their firmware updates and their release of 8.1 soon (which they have confirmed they will do this summer).
I figured from the get go when this started yesterday that this 8.1 release doesn't seem to properly support CDMA and judging by how many people have this issue, I was correct. Microsoft really needs to work better on the CDMA side of things.

fgr said:
I by no means have a brick, but I do now have an issue. Here’s what happened.
I have a Sprint ATIV S Neo, GDR3, Interop-unlock, the whole deal.
Installed the 8.1 update yesterday, and everything was working. I have been playing with all kinds of “stuff” in the registry and such, so I decided that since I had just installed 8.1 I would start fresh and do a hard reset. I don’t really care about keeping interop-unlock at this point. Even with it, so much is still locked down. I’m sure in the future someone will get this cracked and we can really have fun, but until then, just being developer unlocked is good enough.
So, when I got home I reset the phone (power+volume down, exclamation point, then the remaining sequence).
Phone boots back up, and I connect to my WiFi and set everything back up. I think life is wonderful at this point. Then decide to test my 4G download speed so I turn off wifi.
Oops, no cellular data, phone calls and text are fine (didn’t try mms, but probably doesn’t work, blank url in the provisioning). Tried all the usual tricks (##72786# and such). I have my msl, so I go into the provisioning, and things look messed up. My MDN and MSID are 000003872. That makes no sense, so I set them back to the correct values and still no go.
Called Sprint. They ran me through all the usual things that I had already done (hour on the phone with them).
Long story short: The activation program seems to be missing from my phone. Hands free activation never tries to start, in fact, after hard resetting again and watching closely, during setup it says “Activate your device can’t be opened”. And the network settings are missing from the settings menu.
So after work I’m going to take it to Sprint and hopefully they have a factory image they can flash (hopefully an older version so I can update things myself).
My thinking is that the 8.1 update is basically the new rom, but during install doesn't delete the existing carrier programs. When I hard reset, all that got re-installed was the strictly Microsoft stuff, not the carrier specific items i.e. hands free activation.
PS Sorry about the novel...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I saw your reply to my thread for the same issue. I did some research on WP Central and found another thread where someone was having the same issue with an Ativ S and the solution was to manually enter the APN information. I don't know what the APN info is for Sprint, but when I checked it on my phone it was blank. It seems like a safe bet that updating that info would fix the issue.
---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------
iknowsingh said:
No need to apologize for the novel! I did the SAME exact thing as you (except I hard resetted via settings > about > more info > reset your phone). Luckily I know my MSL, and have my MSID handy. I wiped my settings by doing ##72786# and selecting ok twice. I rebooted my phone manually and then went to the 'activate my device' app in settings. It did what looked like a profile update and it said my phone was successfully activated with my phone number listed.
I can browse the web on Sprint's network, make/receive calls and send/receive texts. The only thing I can't figure out to fix is MMS. I can't get or send picture mail, group texts or any kind of MMS at all.
I've managed to get my coworkers settings from his ATIV S Neo but I can't figure out how to edit them on my phone. Going into ##3282# doesn't let me edit things that deeply.
From what I've heard on other forums is that we're basically SOL unless Sprint releases their firmware updates and their release of 8.1 soon (which they have confirmed they will do this summer).
I figured from the get go when this started yesterday that this 8.1 release doesn't seem to properly support CDMA and judging by how many people have this issue, I was correct. Microsoft really needs to work better on the CDMA side of things.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would you be willing to post the settings? I am guessing that the issue may be partially related to APN settings being missing under Settings, Cellular+SIM, SIM settings. I read a post by someone on another forum who had the same data issues but fixed them by entering the APN information for his carrier. I've tried a couple of different APN settings that I've found out on the web for Sprint, but I'm not sure they are accurate. All I know is that they were missing when I checked them on my phone.

i have fixed my issue with some internet research.
adding manually the APN of the provider in the APN settings solved the issue for me.
hope i helped.

Would you be willing to post the settings? I am guessing that the issue may be partially related to APN settings being missing under Settings, Cellular+SIM, SIM settings. I read a post by someone on another forum who had the same data issues but fixed them by entering the APN information for his carrier. I've tried a couple of different APN settings that I've found out on the web for Sprint, but I'm not sure they are accurate. All I know is that they were missing when I checked them on my phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would not mind at all! I went into ##3282# on his phone, selected 'view' then 'others' then 'MMSC URL' . The two pictures are attached, the order of the settings begins with the picture that says '[email protected]'. The second pic is literally a continuation as it starts right where the first picture ends (I scrolled neatly!)
I've been trying to find the correct Sprint APN settings around the web, and a lot of sites have similar settings as options but either Windows Phone doesn't have enough fields for the settings, and the fact that in the APN settings on 8.1, it doesn't let me change the authentication type.
I noted on my coworker's ATIV S Neo that in his 'cellular+SIM' section, he doesn't have options to input APN like I do... the hard reset must've kicked the CDMA stuff in our phones to the curb.

fatdata said:
i have fixed my issue with some internet research.
adding manually the APN of the provider in the APN settings solved the issue for me.
hope i helped.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would you mind posting the APN settings you used? That would be appreciated... I've tried going to various sites but wasn't sure what was the correct ones.

iknowsingh said:
Would you mind posting the APN settings you used? That would be appreciated... I've tried going to various sites but wasn't sure what was the correct ones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
they are for greek providrs though... I think you need to find the ones for your provider.
note: i just used the GPRS APN address for wind (my provider) and it worked the rest seemed to not make any diference
VODAFONE
GPRS APN: - internet.vodafone.gr ή webonly.vodafone.gr
Username: - {κενό}
Password: - {κενό}
MCC=202
MNC=05
APN type=default
DNS: - 213.249.17.10, 213.249.17.11
WIND
GPRS APN: - gnet.b-online.gr ή gint.b-online.gr
Username: - {κενό}
Password: - {κενό}
MCC=202
MNC=10
APN type=default
DNS: - 212.152.79.19, 212.152.79.20

fatdata said:
they are for greek providrs though... I think you need to find the ones for your provider.
note: i just used the GPRS APN address and it worked the rest seemed to not make any diference
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ahhhh, Vodafone... I assumed you were a Sprint brethren... I appreciate your post nonetheless! Thank you, sir. Now to continue the hunt for correct Sprint settings -_-

Just got back from two Sprint stores and a Best Buy with Samsung reps on hand. None of them had access to any means of reflashing to stock, and really had no useful information. I was surprised by how little they knew about any Windows phones.
I do have TEP though, and they ordered me a new phone. I should have it in a few days. Costing me nothing
Wish I had something useful to tell you folks...

fgr said:
Just got back from two Sprint stores and a Best Buy with Samsung reps on hand. None of them had access to any means of reflashing to stock, and really had no useful information. I was surprised by how little they knew about any Windows phones.
I do have TEP though, and they ordered me a new phone. I should have it in a few days. Costing me nothing
Wish I had something useful to tell you folks...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I actually work for a Sprint store (non service/repair location) and I don't have TEP. I actually DO have an upgrade available since I bought the ATIV S Neo off-contract. I wouldn't mind using my upgrade on another ATIV S Neo... and whatever Windows Phones Sprint gets in the future, I'll have to buy off contract (which is nothing new to me lol).
I could technically add TEP to my line and wait a few days then do an advanced exchange at a local repair center but I'll most likely get a refurb as most of them are. I'd rather a brand new device
So I'm currently debating using my upgrade...

fgr said:
Just got back from two Sprint stores and a Best Buy with Samsung reps on hand. None of them had access to any means of reflashing to stock, and really had no useful information. I was surprised by how little they knew about any Windows phones.
I do have TEP though, and they ordered me a new phone. I should have it in a few days. Costing me nothing
Wish I had something useful to tell you folks...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you mention the update to 8.1 or did you just play dumb? I am thinking I am going to have to do the same thing as you but I don't want to walk in there and tell them that I did the update and have them tell me I'm SOL.

ZogJones said:
Did you mention the update to 8.1 or did you just play dumb? I am thinking I am going to have to do the same thing as you but I don't want to walk in there and tell them that I did the update and have them tell me I'm SOL.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was completely honest, gave them the whole story from start to finish. Even pointed out some of the cool features of 8.1 :laugh:
If this was the new Galaxy they might have given me a hard time, who knows.