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That's it. Now we know what really happens when you unlock the Xperia BL. The DRM (?) is responsible for the anti-noise feature in the camera.
Perhaps, everyone who's got his Z2 unlocked probably won't be able to get a new mint condition Z2 from their retailers... all I can hope is for some dev to find a way to restore that processing. Z2's camera is absolutely one of the most powerful around - it is a shame (not to say other things) that Sony actually let this happen.
Images used:
http://imgur.com/OoD3IS8 (taken by me, last night)
http://imgur.com/wzUkc0p (it was used for a review, you can find the unmarked image here: http://www.electrony.net/media/2014/03/Xperia-Z2-low-light-photo-and-4K-video-samples9.jpg)
That's what you can do with Pixlr Express (Smoothing : 3)
Honestly couldn't spot the difference!
jaffa1980 said:
Honestly couldn't spot the difference!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bionz could do it probably better, but honestly you need some glasses.
Ha ha i do?!
---------- Post added at 09:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 PM ----------
Ha ha oh i see now the noise in the square. Still negligible though. Take a photo of the same thing on the same settings with locked and unlocked boot loader. It could be different settings even if done with superior auto (ie night scene vs night portrait etc) and as he said in previous post just smooth with a photo editor ?
But i notice a lot of banding, even if i turned in antibanding to auto, 50 or 60Hz it won't go. Indoors btw, i think it is cz of the lights, but my dads s5 is not showing any bandings.
you take two total complete Pictures and compare them?.... great job!
If you want to compare for real get a locked phone, make the picture, unlock it and take the picture again within 5 minutes and with the same light condition!
Haldi4803 said:
you take two total complete Pictures and compare them?.... great job!
If you want to compare for real get a locked phone, make the picture, unlock it and take the picture again within 5 minutes and with the same light condition!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Haldi4803 said:
you take two total complete Pictures and compare them?.... great job!
If you want to compare for real get a locked phone, make the picture, unlock it and take the picture again within 5 minutes and with the same light condition!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since I am not able to get another locked phone, I can't do such test. Besides, black is black in any picture you see, is it not?
Modes, EV, ISO, etc. - all these are factors need to be put in balance when you compare pictures. However, I am comparing how the sensor works with noise. And that's really it.
rodritank said:
Since I am not able to get another locked phone, I can't do such test. Besides, black is black in any picture you see, is it not?
Modes, EV, ISO, etc. - all these are factors need to be put in balance when you compare pictures. However, I am comparing how the sensor works with noise. And that's really it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Regardless, it's not really the fairest comparison.
This comparison is total nonsense. You're comparing two images with completely different exposure levels in an area with completely different luminance, and they were probably shot at completely different shutter speed and sensitivity to boot. Both images have been resaved and recompressed, probably multiple times, and have been rescaled by completely different factors. They've also had the EXIF information stripped, and quite possibly have been modified in other ways.
If your goal was to make the least valid comparison possible, then congratulations -- you've probably succeeded.
If you wanted to make a meaningful comparison, then sorry, this isn't it and this thread should probably be closed or deleted to stop it misleading people.
"Final test" indeed -- no testing has been done here.
knoxploration said:
This comparison is total nonsense. You're comparing two images with completely different exposure levels in an area with completely different luminance, and they were probably shot at completely different shutter speed and sensitivity to boot. Both images have been resaved and recompressed, probably multiple times, and have been rescaled by completely different factors. They've also had the EXIF information stripped, and quite possibly have been modified in other ways.
If your goal was to make the least valid comparison possible, then congratulations -- you've probably succeeded.
If you wanted to make a meaningful comparison, then sorry, this isn't it and this thread should probably be closed or deleted to stop it misleading people.
"Final test" indeed -- no testing has been done here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whoa, I can't understand why people are so mad and rude.
You are not obliged to concur with my test - however, I did not pull it out from my ass - thing you are doing when you speculate that it has been "resaved and recompressed, probably multiple times, and have been rescaled by completely different factors".
No dude, they were not. I got both photos and didn't compress them to generate artifacts. EXIF is stripped because IMGUR does that. The test is to show how it renders the noise in low light.
While I have stated this is not the best comparison test, it's the best someone could come up with until now. I'd be REALLY happy if you could prove me that my unlocked phone hasn't had loss of low light quality since I unlocked it, though.
rodritank said:
Whoa, I can't understand why people are so mad and rude.
You are not obliged to concur with my test - however, I did not pull it out from my ass - thing you are doing when you speculate that it has been "resaved and recompressed, probably multiple times, and have been rescaled by completely different factors".
No dude, they were not. I got both photos and didn't compress them to generate artifacts. EXIF is stripped because IMGUR does that. The test is to show how it renders the noise in low light.
While I have stated this is not the best comparison test, it's the best someone could come up with until now. I'd be REALLY happy if you could prove me that my unlocked phone hasn't had loss of low light quality since I unlocked it, though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
FYI, Imgur compresses images that are over 1MB, so your image has been compressed (unless your source image was under 1MB, which I highly doubt):
http://imgur.com/faq
Also, a better way to compare is to take two images by yourself from the same scene, at the same time. Maybe you know a friend who has a Z2 as well with his/her bootloader still locked. This is because you don't know if the other website modified the images in any way. (EXIF data can be faked very easily btw)
I'm not saying your comparison doesn't make any sense, but you could probably improve it a lot with the things I mentioned above.
rodritank said:
No dude, they were not. I got both photos and didn't compress them to generate artifacts. EXIF is stripped because IMGUR does that. The test is to show how it renders the noise in low light.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, "dude", they were. You didn't shoot both photos, and you have no idea what has been done if anything to one of them. Neither photo is at a native resolution the camera supports, so both photos have been downsamples and/or cropped.
You cannot downsample or crop losslessly, so both photos have been saved using lossy compression, then recompressed and resaved again using lossy compression, at LEAST once and possibly more times.
This "comparison" is totally flawed on every single level, and the only meaningful conclusion that can be drawn from it is that "both locked and unlocked phones can take pictures". Every other conclusion you attempt to draw is utter nonsense.
B1nny said:
FYI, Imgur compresses images that are over 1MB, so your image has been compressed (unless your source image was under 1MB, which I highly doubt):
http://imgur.com/faq
Also, a better way to compare is to take two images by yourself from the same scene, at the same time. Maybe you know a friend who has a Z2 as well with his/her bootloader still locked. This is because you don't know if the other website modified the images in any way. (EXIF data can be faked very easily btw)
I'm not saying your comparison doesn't make any sense, but you could probably improve it a lot with the things I mentioned above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed. Thanks for the input. Like I said, I lack of a second locked phone - so I compared the grain.
I just hope someone will make a new comparison under fair conditions then.
Random note
I saw 0 difference from bootloader unlocked or relocked
Tested with x-reality off and dithering off to remove any potential spoilers
If anyone wants i could give 2 pictures with a direct download so you can see for your self
knoxploration said:
Yes, "dude", they were. You didn't shoot both photos, and you have no idea what has been done if anything to one of them. Neither photo is at a native resolution the camera supports, so both photos have been downsamples and/or cropped.
You cannot downsample or crop losslessly, so both photos have been saved using lossy compression, then recompressed and resaved again using lossy compression, at LEAST once and possibly more times.
This "comparison" is totally flawed on every single level, and the only meaningful conclusion that can be drawn from it is that "both locked and unlocked phones can take pictures". Every other conclusion you attempt to draw is utter nonsense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
first things first, I totally agree with you. Your logic is concrete and your method is scientific, I am impressed.
BUT, can you rephrase your words so that it is less intruding? Although you are the correct one, but these words might lead to keyboard war. Your words are like a dictator, which is not supposed to happen here in XDA. Perhaps if you know more than him, you can GIUDE him to enlightenment
While true that his tone might come off as a bit rude, I'd say that's partially because the OP is very bombastic when he states the following in the first post:
That's it. Now we know what really happens when you unlock the Xperia BL. The DRM (?) is responsible for the anti-noise feature in the camera.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which, frankly, turns out to be BS.
A "final" test of this would be taking several pictures of several different motives/scenes with the exact same settings, the exact same motive, the exact same lighting and the exact same position, first with a locked bootloader and then with an unlocked bootloader.
A time-consuming task that requires the right equipment and person doing it, which is why there's no definitive answer to this yet.
rodritank said:
Since I am not able to get another locked phone, I can't do such test. Besides, black is black in any picture you see, is it not?
Modes, EV, ISO, etc. - all these are factors need to be put in balance when you compare pictures. However, I am comparing how the sensor works with noise. And that's really it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, black is black! But... Here it comes...
The Sky is not Black! There are a lot of stars in the sky! You will not find a Black spot on this earth. Not even in a totally closed of room you could create a photo of black with your smartphone, simply because the light of your screen would reflect from the walls!
So for 'nearly' Black pictures, to compare, values like ISO, aperture and shutter speed are most important.
And as you stated before. Most people are that happy to root their new phone, they either don't care or totally forget about Foto quality and noise reduction ^^
That's why there has not been such a test before.
@Envious_Data
Relocked Bootloader with restored DRM keys? And restored Bavaria engine?
Haldi4803 said:
Yes, black is black! But... Here it comes...
The Sky is not Black! There are a lot of stars in the sky! You will not find a Black spot on this earth. Not even in a totally closed of room you could create a photo of black with your smartphone, simply because the light of your screen would reflect from the walls!
So for 'nearly' Black pictures, to compare, values like ISO, aperture and shutter speed are most important.
And as you stated before. Most people are that happy to root their new phone, they either don't care or totally forget about Foto quality and noise reduction ^^
That's why there has not been such a test before.
@Envious_Data
Relocked Bootloader with restored DRM keys? And restored Bavaria engine?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tested
Relocked bootloader
Relocked via TA restore
Relocked then TA Restore
Freinds units
Never unlocked
Unlocked bootloader
Exact same placement, about 5-10 mins apart
Im going to upload some pics from my test
Results
0 difference in image quality
No x-reality at all
Settings
Manual
Iso 400
EV 0.0
Focal forced 1.5mm,3.0mm,3.0mm,1.7mm
White balance: -1
Spot metering
2MP
HDR OFF
Ill repost when uploaded
Related
Ok, I started this thread because there are a million question throughout this forum about the stock camera on the X10. Some people just don't understand why they can't get good pictures from a 8mp camera. Some people say, why does this stupid 8mp camera take pictures with the quality of a 5mp camera (that makes me laugh a bit) lol.
So, here's the deal, for as long as I have been a member here I don't remember seeing a thread on this to help people get better pictures. Just many threads with questions scattered throughout.
Lets get started:
As a photographer I do spend ALOT of time taking pictures whether Im at home, work, parties, etc etc. I also shoot weddings, I have done and still do family portaits, etc etc.
So, most of the time I have my DSLR..but sometimes I dont, sometimes I just have my point-and-shoot, sometimes I rely on my X10. And thats where the fun starts.
When I use my phone to take pictures, I want to make sure I use the best possible settings to get the best possible picture. That includes, white balance, metering, and the lovely EV+/-.
I have spent a HUGE HUGE amount of time comparing many many different camera apps against each other. Guess which one won in the very end??? STOCK CAMERA! by a long shot!
What makes the stock so good compared to others? probably a more accurate meter reading, better white balance control and of course the EV+/- control.
How do I use my X10 camera properly then?
1. One thing I found for SURE on the X10 camera is the focusing isn't good. Use infinity focus for any shot UNLESS it's a macro (which isn't truly a macro, because smartphones aren't capable of shooting actual macro)
2. Change your white balance! if your inside your house with normal lighting from lamps, ceiling fans, etc, use incandenscent white balance! if your outside on a bright sunny day..use day white balance, if your outside and it's cloudy, use cloudy white balance. If your unsure, just use auto,,,it holds up really well.
3. Use EV+/- balance! best feature of our stock camera, which no other camera app can offer. Here's how its works:
you will see a meter when use press the EV control on your camera screen. It goes from -2___0___+2. By default its set to 0. If your shooting outside on a bright day try lowering it to about -0.3 to -1. You will see a dramatic difference with your shot. Much more detail becomes available. If you taking a picture of your friend, family member, etc etc outside on a bright day you might notice sometimes they look dark on your screen...thats because all the light from the background (usually the sun) is tricking your lens into thinking it has a crazy amount of light and it will lower the shutter speed. To counteract that, you will need to raise your EV to the + side. What this essentially does is overexposes the background, but brightens your subject up close so they aren't dark. Inside under poor lighting people complain about the camera and how it sucks. Well, guess what, we cant control the shutter speed or aperture on our camera, so we have to use whats available...again EV.
Under poor lighting, lower your EV to no less then -0.7 (otherwise the image might be to dark) What you will notice by doing this is yes the picture is slightly darker, but it also help reduce background noise within your photo.
Play around with the EV and see the difference for yourself. But never raise it in the + side of things unless your subject it to dark compared to the background otherwise you will end up with an overexposed photo. Lowering it a bit helps in almost all situations for everyday shooters.
How do I setup the X10 camera:
Capturing Mode: Normal
Resolution: 8mp or 6mp (wide) depends on what I want (remember, MP DO NOT effect quality)
Scenes: Normal
Focus Mode: Infinity or macro for close up shots
Photo light: always off for me
self timer: always off
metering: depends. but for everyday shooting use average as this is also known as matrix and is the most accurate metering mode.
White Balance: I explained above how to use it and when
Image stabilizer: ALWAYS OFF!! The feature is bad on the X10. Its litterly destroys the image. It causes way to much smearing should I say.
The rest of the features don't matter.
I hope this helps alot of your get better images from your stock cam. Because in the end of it, it most certainly is a superior app than anything on the market. Of course I have 360 ultimate, and vignette on my phone. 360 is nice for taking pictures with instant effects, and works really well. Same with vignette. So those 2 apps are by no means junk....just in sheer quality, not comparible to stock. Try staying away from automatic settings most of the time.
How to make your photo unique and very nice?
Use the rule of thirds. If you guys like this enough, I will continue to help you all with achieving much prettier pictures.
If you guys like this, I will take the time to do photos and show the differences when using EV and other features on the stock camera.
I would like this to become a sticky so people visiting these forums can see it at the top of the list and hopefully helps them before having to post more questions.
Any questions about this, feel free to ask.
Please don't troll this thread, I have dedicated myself to photography as a passion and take things very seriously. Of course you can disagree with me on this thread, but do it in a nice manner.
Thank you this is what I have always wanted to know how to make it better with the stock Camera
Your guide helps me a lot I cant wait to try it by myself after my phone is done charging
It would also be nice if you dont mind showing us some of your picture taken from X10 ( And Yes It will be appreciated if you could do the comparison )
nice tips... how about a write up on how to compose a picture =)
Montague said:
Thank you this is what I have always wanted to know how to make it better with the stock Camera
Your guide helps me a lot I cant wait to try it by myself after my phone is done charging
It would also be nice if you dont mind showing us some of your picture taken from X10 ( And Yes It will be appreciated if you could do the comparison )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will put together pictures for this thread showing the differences in features. But alot of my x10 pictures are of family which i wont post. So gimme a little time to take random shots.
Sent from my X10i using XDA App
beanoguy said:
nice tips... how about a write up on how to compose a picture =)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If people like this thread enough, i will absolutely take it further. I will give the tips and tricks i use when shooting weddings, family portraits, etc.
Composition comes with practice. Knowing how to frame your shot is a big deal in photography.
Sent from my X10i using XDA App
The stock camera in 2.1 was the best, but now I am noticing a severe deterioration in quality after upgrading to GB. Night photos are completely unusable after upgrading to GB - there is severe noise reduction applied as default and the pictures look like some artist's water-colored images. I wish i could revert to the 2.1 firmware
Will post a comparison soon...
EDIT: Image Stabilization is set to OFF and I am using normal mode (no scenes).
bbsrailfan said:
The stock camera in 2.1 was the best, but now I am noticing a severe deterioration in quality after upgrading to GB. Night photos are completely unusable after upgrading to GB - there is severe noise reduction applied as default and the pictures look like some artist's water-colored images. I wish i could revert to the 2.1 firmware
Will post a comparison soon...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Simce i just flashed 2.3.3 i havent really had a chance to check the camera much. But i will soon.
Sent from my X10i using XDA App
Please continue sir, this can't be more helpful Thank you very much!
Oh man what took you so long to write this?
by the way weren't you the one who once said miui camera takes better pictures than stock?
Hei, you're good at making photos, so i suppose you're also good with photoshop and stuff.
Because there is a slight chance that there are some ..... how should we call them.... people who don't understand something when they don't see it with their own eyes.... why don't you make a picture of camera app and insert numbers to describe each feature and which is where.
Here is a Screenshot
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"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
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"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
(sorry for this pixel thing on the right side, but just cant get rid of it, liveview of camera refreshes to fast for screenshot ^^ )
riginal said:
Oh man what took you so long to write this?
by the way weren't you the one who once said miui camera takes better pictures than stock?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also thought Vignette did to. Once I learned infinity focus was better than single auto, and discovered EV on stock cam...it was all over lol
Haldi4803 said:
Hei, you're good at making photos, so i suppose you're also good with photoshop and stuff.
Because there is a slight chance that there are some ..... how should we call them.... people who don't understand something when they don't see it with their own eyes.... why don't you make a picture of camera app and insert numbers to describe each feature and which is where.
Here is a Screenshot
(sorry for this pixel thing on the right side, but just cant get rid of it, liveview of camera refreshes to fast for screenshot ^^ )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Up in my first post I wrote how I setup my stock cam.
there all in order according to your camera app starting from the top to the bottom, then in the additional settings.
If you use a different camera app, and wanna know what button is doing, just ask
Oh! ps. I noticed your set on infinity focus in that screenshot,,,which wouldn't work out so well being so close. you would want macro. Which is the very top box on your camera screen
Very deatil, I must say.
I am going to try using the EV adj to take better photos.
If you gave time,could you write another thread to teach us how to take good photo under poor light/at night(Well,I knowthe light sensor is just x.x)
cheers,
L
Sent fRom mY FreeXperia X10 uSIng xda Premium App
m8 the shire quality of the images is much much much time better with vignette than the stock camera app mainly coz the stock camera app compresses the pictures a lot more and the quality is a lot worst than those taken with vignette for instance i took the same picture with the stock app and vignette and the truth is ht picture with the stock camera is 2.8mb a lot worse and the one with vignette is 5.6mb ... sooo .. dunno what u compared but m8 from my experience your not right for shire quality of the images, about the options of the app i agree with u but not for the quality taken with the stock app its poor .For instance i was on the same options that u mentioned and me and my gf who has 6700 nokia compared pictures and i was astonished how bad is the quality untill i found vignette - the best app for taking quality images for me
bbsrailfan said:
The stock camera in 2.1 was the best, but now I am noticing a severe deterioration in quality after upgrading to GB. Night photos are completely unusable after upgrading to GB - there is severe noise reduction applied as default and the pictures look like some artist's water-colored images. I wish i could revert to the 2.1 firmware
Will post a comparison soon...
EDIT: Image Stabilization is set to OFF and I am using normal mode (no scenes).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
while taking pics in night try night landscape! if it's outdoor!
suggested by mode from esato!
you can check few pics in here
laill said:
Very deatil, I must say.
I am going to try using the EV adj to take better photos.
If you gave time,could you write another thread to teach us how to take good photo under poor light/at night(Well,I knowthe light sensor is just x.x)
cheers,
L
Sent fRom mY FreeXperia X10 uSIng xda Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nightime photography is my favorite. However on this phone without manual controls of aperture, shutter speed and ISO...you can only do so much.
If you shooting handheld at night,, you better have a VERY steady hand. Otherwise mount your phone.
Leave the EV at 0 and adjust from there. White balance makes a massive difference at night...which most of the time (not always) will be incandenscent white balance.
Use infinity focus at night because the X10 just wont be able to focus properly anyways. Unless you have significant lighting. I still stick with infinity anyways lol.
Good thing about infinity focus, is you can hold the shutter button half way as if you were focusing and move around with it held half way til your ready to snap your shot then just press the shutter the rest of the way.
But yeah, the sensor is only so good on this phone.
Mr Patchy Patch said:
I also thought Vignette did to. Once I learned infinity focus was better than single auto, and discovered EV on stock cam...it was all over lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's what I thought about Vignette too & frankly I love that app & its effects hehe.
But I'll try playing with these settings in stock cam & see what'll happen.
laill said:
Very deatil, I must say.
I am going to try using the EV adj to take better photos.
If you gave time,could you write another thread to teach us how to take good photo under poor light/at night(Well,I knowthe light sensor is just x.x)
cheers,
L
Sent fRom mY FreeXperia X10 uSIng xda Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honestly tho, taking phone cameras out of the picture, it's difficult to take nice pictures in low light conditions, even with a DSLR.
Essentially, there are several factors that enable you to take good low light photos, such as longer exposure times (allowing more light to hit the sensor) the use of tripods (a very steady hand) and/or a flash for a light source.
Even your breathing will give camera shake resulting in a blurry picture.
Agreed, the X10 is powerful enough to take great photos and it's up to the user to make the picture look awesome.
Here's the one I took and post processed with Lightroom 3.
diimaan said:
while taking pics in night try night landscape! if it's outdoor!
suggested by mode from esato!
you can check few pics in here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You better have a steady hand in night landscape mode lol.
But it does work well
I was really bummed about the camera app and quality when I first bought my Z1 because it didn't deliver what I thought it would. But I figured what the hell I love the looks of this phone I also find the waterproofnessness(!) extremely useful, so it doesn't matter if the camera doesn't deliver what I hoped for, I can live with it, you know? but then the "update" came and it made the camera worse than it was before, so naturally, as every camera fanatic would, I got really mad! I tried a bunch of apps but they were no good I also tried the so called "Superior Auto" mode and it didn't really helped so I had no other choice but to call Sony Support Center for help.... And this is what I got so far:
Oct 30
ME:
I just bought the Z1 with software v. 14.1.G.2.257.The camera takes terrible and I mean terrible pictures,lots and lots of noise and artifacts even in auto mode which only takes 8MP pics.This is not what you hope for when you buy an expensive 20.7MP camera phone.I also have iPhone 5/5S and they take much much better pictures,even though their specs are inferior on paper. You should be ashamed...Am I gonna have to live withit or youregonna fixit?
THEM:
Dear Ara,
Thank you for contacting Sony Xperia™ Online Support.
We're sorry to hear that you're experiencing poor image quality from the camera of your Xperia™ Z1. I'm happy to assist you today, however, in order to provide you with the best possible service, it would be helpful to have more information about the issue at hand.
Are you using the front facing camera, or the outward facing camera? Has the camera always captured low quality images, or is this a new issue? Have you tried restarting the phone by holding the power key and the volume up key simultaneously until the phone vibrates? Have you cleaned the outside of the lens?
If you will please reply with more information, we'll gladly assist you further.
As part of Sony Mobile's commitment to excellent customer service, we offer a wide variety of mobile products to suit your lifestyle. If you require more information, or have any other questions, please visit www.sonymobile.com.
Kind Regards,
Jessica
Sony Xperia Customer Services
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ME:
This is the same exact situation I'm in:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2501027
and come on what kind of an idiot contacts the costumer service before checking if the lens is clean?
Nov 9!
THEM:
Dear Ara,
Thank you for contacting Sony Xperia™ Online Support.
We apologize for the delay of our response. Regarding your inquiry, the best we can recommend is a software repair via computer in order to discard any possibility of a software glitch. For this follow the steps below:
Here is the link you will need to download PC Companion
http://www.sonymobile.com/us/tools/pc-companion/
Once you have downloaded the program these are the steps you will need to follow:
*Make sure the phone is fully charged or at least 50% charged
*Make sure your phone is completely powered off
*Open the program
*Click on Support Zone
*Select Phone Software Update
*Click on Repair Phone
**DO NOT CONNECT THE PHONE TO THE PC UNTIL YOU SEE A MESSAGE THAT WILL LET YOU KNOW WHEN AND HOW TO DO IT
As part of Sony Mobile's commitment to excellent customer service, we offer a wide variety of mobile products to suit your lifestyle. If you require more information, or have any other questions, please visit www.sonymobile.com or call us at 1-866-766-9374.
Kind Regards,
Jessica
Sony Xperia US Customer Services
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ME:
Oh for god sake! This isn't a problem on my side... I'm actually in position of two Z1s one with 14.1.G.2.257 and the other with 14.1.G.1.534 both devices are absolutely clean by anymeans (software and hardware), I'll give you a comparison of the two and my iPhone 5S as soon as I'm done working, please do not assume that there is something wrong only and only with my device... either all the Z1s have horrible cameras or you just screwed up the camera algorithm which can be fixed... either way its on your part!
Again ME:
OK, so here they are:
---------------------------------------------
These are the samples I sent them:
8MP 1.534
8MP 2.257
20MP 1.534
20MP 2.257
iPh5S 7.0.3
If you guys do have the same problem as me (which you do!) please mention it here, Maybe this way they stop BS-ing me!
ara.armagedon said:
I was really bummed about the camera app and quality when I first bought my Z1 because it didn't deliver what I thought it would. But I figured what the hell I love the looks of this phone I also find the waterproofnessness(!) extremely useful, so it doesn't matter if the camera doesn't deliver what I hoped for, I can live with it, you know? but then the "update" came and it made the camera worse than it was before, so naturally, as every camera fanatic would, I got really mad! I tried a bunch of apps but they were no good I also tried the so called "Superior Auto" mode and it didn't really helped so I had no other choice but to call Sony Support Center for help.... And this is what I got so far:
Oct 30
ME:
I just bought the Z1 with software v. 14.1.G.2.257.The camera takes terrible and I mean terrible pictures,lots and lots of noise and artifacts even in auto mode which only takes 8MP pics.This is not what you hope for when you buy an expensive 20.7MP camera phone.I also have iPhone 5/5S and they take much much better pictures,even though their specs are inferior on paper. You should be ashamed...Am I gonna have to live withit or youregonna fixit?
THEM:
ME:
This is the same exact situation I'm in:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2501027
and come on what kind of an idiot contacts the costumer service before checking if the lens is clean?
Nov 9!
THEM:
ME:
Oh for god sake! This isn't a problem on my side... I'm actually in position of two Z1s one with 14.1.G.2.257 and the other with 14.1.G.1.534 both devices are absolutely clean by anymeans (software and hardware), I'll give you a comparison of the two and my iPhone 5S as soon as I'm done working, please do not assume that there is something wrong only and only with my device... either all the Z1s have horrible cameras or you just screwed up the camera algorithm which can be fixed... either way its on your part!
Again ME:
OK, so here they are:
---------------------------------------------
I'll upload the pics for you guys later today
If you guys do have the same problem as me (which you do!) please mention here, Maybe this way they stop BS-ing me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There seems to be a mixed bag in terms of this camera, majority of tech site reviewers have gotten good results with the camera. I am fairly certain(imo)there are dodgy batches of this phone floating about, just ask anyone who bought a z1 from India. Well anyway i don't have any issues with my z1 in terms of camera functionality and quality. The reason Sony support ask all these stupid questions, is they have a set of troubleshooting questions and no matter how stupid they sound they are going to ask them as this is part of their process, they have to rule out the simplest of things even if it doesnt apply to you. If you read throught the z1 forum, you will see a lot of threads, some saying the phone is amazing and others have shown users are not happy, now this could be down to software issues or hardware issues. In your case, if you have tried all the basic stuff like reflashing the software and what not then go and get a replacement and if you are still not happy get a refund.
First of all:
Dude, learn how tot use a phone camera, Z1 doesn't have a bad camera. It takes great pictures with the right settings. I'm sick and tired of people that probably don't know how to use a camera or maybe just love posting this kinda sh*t.
If you have a bad unit, in this case 2, ask for a replacement or something else before saying all Z1 cameras are bad.
Second:
Sending emails to a company with such language is really stupid, the person that gets your email is just human, you can be friendly to them.
Third:
Mods please delete this thread.
Sent from my Xperia Z1 using xda app-developers app
krabappel2548 said:
First of all:
Dude, learn how tot use a phone camera, Z1 doesn't have a bad camera. It takes great pictures with the right settings. I'm sick and tired of people that probably don't know how to use a camera or maybe just love posting this kinda sh*t.
If you have a bad unit, in this case 2, ask for a replacement or something else before saying all Z1 cameras are bad.
Second:
Sending emails to a company with such language is really stupid, the person that gets your email is just human, you can be friendly to them.
Third:
Mods please delete this thread.
Sent from my Xperia Z1 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I completely agree with you, specially on second and third point.
krabappel2548 said:
First of all:
Dude, learn how tot use a phone camera, Z1 doesn't have a bad camera. It takes great pictures with the right settings. I'm sick and tired of people that probably don't know how to use a camera or maybe just love posting this kinda sh*t.
If you have a bad unit, in this case 2, ask for a replacement or something else before saying all Z1 cameras are bad.
Second:
Sending emails to a company with such language is really stupid, the person that gets your email is just human, you can be friendly to them.
Third:
Mods please delete this thread.
Sent from my Xperia Z1 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest, the superior auto mode SHOULD be better then what it is. Tons of people will not get past the auto mode and a company should make sure it is up to par. It kinda sucks you have to go into settings to change them every time to suit the best situation if you just want to take a quick nice snap.
Completely agree with the rest though, the tone in your first message is insulting right away. How do you expect people to help if you start shouting at them,
Wait at least until the 3rd mail before giving up (because in all honesty, it IS extremely frustrating that very often the people answering your mail don't even seem to read it and just give some autoreply answer. The times I mailed support, explaining exactly the issue and steps already taken to resolve it only to get a 'have you tried resetting the device?' YES! That was the first point in my 'already tried' list.).
ara.armagedon said:
I'll upload the pics for you guys later today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yah, do that.
Make sure the originals are linked i don't want to see downsized images with no exif data.
Put them up either on dropbox, flickr or photobucket.
---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------
ara.armagedon said:
This is the same exact situation I'm in:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2501027
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I could not make out much in that thread as the OP never provided originals.
The picture itself was a challenging one given the bakclighting issues. How well would other phones have compared in the same situation.
No frame of reference to come to any conclusions.
One Twelve said:
Yah, do that.
Make sure the originals are linked i don't want to see downsized images with no exif data.
Put them up either on dropbox, flickr or photobucket.
---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------
I could not make out much in that thread as the OP never provided originals.
The picture itself was a challenging one given the bakclighting issues. How well would other phones have compared in the same situation.
No frame of reference to come to any conclusions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
8MP 1.534
8MP 2.257
20MP 1.534
20MP 2.257
iPh5S 7.0.3
They're not publicly available. Change your folder settings on drop box mate
wezzel98765 said:
They're not publicly available. Change your folder settings on drop box mate
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My bad, sorry. They should be fine now
ara.armagedon said:
8MP 1.534
8MP 2.257
20MP 1.534
20MP 2.257
iPh5S 7.0.3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
does not work
btort1 said:
does not work
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm logged out now and they're working fine, tried them on 3 different browsers
have you trie Pro Capture?
I get better photos. Sharper and more details inside
Maybe only @8MPX
ara.armagedon said:
8MP 1.534
8MP 2.257
20MP 1.534
20MP 2.257
iPh5S 7.0.3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK, i can see them now.
This is what you said
The camera takes terrible and I mean terrible pictures,lots and lots of noise and artifacts even in auto mode which only takes 8MP pics.This is not what you hope for when you buy an expensive 20.7MP camera phone.I also have iPhone 5/5S and they take much much better pictures,even though their specs are inferior on paper. You should be ashamed...Am I gonna have to live withit or youregonna fixit?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I looked at the 8MP, .534 vs .257 and find the .257 to have more detail. Ths ISO for the .257 is at 600 vs 800 for .534
The 20MP have lower ISO of 400 and similar shutter speeds as the 5s.
Comparing the iphone pic & the .257 8MP, can anybody see what he means by lots of noise & artifacts ? Cause i cannot.
The pictures look sharp enough to me, so focus isn't an issue in either. Zooming in 1:1, there is a slightly better edge aronud the bag? with the iphone. But i cannot see why the 8MP .257 shot is a terrible one in comparison to the 5s.
The 5s shots are at ISO 300 and at 1/15s So they will be little less noisy.
So what is dissapointing you ? that the 20.7mp image does not look better than the 8MP one ? that it isn't much better than the 5s ?
Any times where the auto on your 5s does not get it right or is it always perfect.
The moment I use flash, the camera churns out horrible images. It's sad really, makes my Z1 camera photos look worse than anything else (white flash on one side of the image).
https://db.tt/E5Q5vWfs
My singl. Img 2.257
GPKrzychuXxX said:
https://db.tt/E5Q5vWfs
My singl. Img 2.257
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thats an excellent photo, makes me wonder if it was taken with the Z1 lol
Gitaroo said:
thats an excellent photo, makes me wonder if it was taken with the Z1 lol[/QUOTE
]https://db.tt/OqngWREP
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thunderising said:
The moment I use flash, the camera churns out horrible images. It's sad really, makes my Z1 camera photos look worse than anything else (white flash on one side of the image).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's something blocking your Flash, mine is perfectly fine with flash
Sent by voldermort's nose
One Twelve said:
OK, i can see them now.
This is what you said
I looked at the 8MP, .534 vs .257 and find the .257 to have more detail. Ths ISO for the .257 is at 600 vs 800 for .534
The 20MP have lower ISO of 400 and similar shutter speeds as the 5s.
Comparing the iphone pic & the .257 8MP, can anybody see what he means by lots of noise & artifacts ? Cause i cannot.
The pictures look sharp enough to me, so focus isn't an issue in either. Zooming in 1:1, there is a slightly better edge aronud the bag? with the iphone. But i cannot see why the 8MP .257 shot is a terrible one in comparison to the 5s.
The 5s shots are at ISO 300 and at 1/15s So they will be little less noisy.
So what is dissapointing you ? that the 20.7mp image does not look better than the 8MP one ? that it isn't much better than the 5s ?
Any times where the auto on your 5s does not get it right or is it always perfect.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is why I was already mad with the support team.
First of all, saying the photos differ because of the ISO while partially true is no excuse, because all the pictures were taken in the same lighting condition and the same focusing area. So the fact that the ISOs differ is actually a software weakness (specially if they differ in the same model, So please don't respond saying something like different lenses because of different phones and so on.)
Second if you really don't see what I'm talking about I'll try just this once to tell you what I mean:
See this again 20MP 2.257
This is the difference between a noisy and non-noisy! :
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
and in this case:
Thraxzzz said:
There's something blocking your Flash, mine is perfectly fine with flash
Sent by voldermort's nose
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How is that even possible. I know how to operate a phone camera to not black the flash,
It only happens when I click under low light conditions. Some cheap ass Lenovo phone was churning out better photos than my flagship phone. I felt embarrassed to say the least
A new camera API was being developed by Google, it was initially supposed to be released with Kitkat but wasn't ready https://android.googlesource.com/platform/frameworks/base/+/b267554
It is raw image capabilities, hopefully we get to see it in the next iteration of Kitkat.
Another link with more information http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013...a-new-android-camera-api-supports-camera-raw/
Can use camera fv-5 to save in PNG as it is, which ends up as 18mb files... so pretty much already have RAW imho
They should give us the option to choose which format and the compression rate.
I would like JPEG images with 8~10 MB per file. 18MB PNG is too much!
wezzel98765 said:
Can use camera fv-5 to save in PNG as it is, which ends up as 18mb files... so pretty much already have RAW imho
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, that is as good as you will get right now, there is no denying that.
As a side comment, if you open a stock jpg from the phone in Photoshop through camera raw do nothing with it and save it at quality 12 jpg you will end up with jpg files as large as your png no difference in quality just bigger file
Do you really understand what camera raw gives you? And how in reality it is nothing like saving a file as PNG, as per the comment directly above, that's whats happening with your fv-5 app.
You have a native image straight from the image sensor, no software processing of the image just what the image sensor saw. (most importantly no noise reduction or sharpening)
Your images currently are only 8bit, chances are raw images will be able to support more bit depth allowing far more shades of colours.
You get to choose you white balance to any temperature as if you were selecting it at the time of shooting in jpg, but after the fact with no strange hues as you would if you tried the same with a jpg.
Lossless processing of photos.
You have pretty much complete control of the output of the final file, as a hypothetical example, superior auto vs manual control.
jpg - 8bit file format is capable of displaying 16.7 Million colours (256 shades per primary colour)
10 bit raw file - 1 billion colours (1024 shade per primary colour)
12 bit raw file - 68 billion colours (4096 shades per primary colour)
My DSLR 14bit raw files are capable of capturing 4.4 Trillion colours (16384 shades per primary colour)
In the example above when working in camera raw with raw files you have far more shades accross the image to work with provided the image is not over or underexposed, this is also part of the reason why DLSR images look so much better especially with skin tones because the representation of these skin tones is much closer to what you can see with your eye.
Once you have tuned your shot exactly as you need then saving as a jpg will create the correct file indexed out of the 256 possible shades per primary colour based on the information provided from the colours within the final edited image.
I'll walk away with,My tail between my legs now
wezzel98765 said:
I'll walk away with,My tail between my legs now
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah but the biggest pain in the behind for raw images, is having to process each shot you take
when image size gets above 20MP, it's going to die on write speed of slow internal/SD.
supercoolman said:
when image size gets above 20MP, it's going to die on write speed of slow internal/SD.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah with you on that, also if they introduce the 4k video recording that the processor is capable of.
I am in a dilemma now for exactly this, tying to future proof as I am in the Market for a 64GB card and wondering if there is any benefit to get the Sandisk ultra @ 30Mb/s or Extreme @ 80MB/s, because I am only seeing about 12MB/s on average from my current 32GB Ultra.
supercoolman said:
when image size gets above 20MP, it's going to die on write speed of slow internal/SD.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is why there are specialised chips to do RAW on DSLR's. The card write speeds are also much faster. There isn't a need for anything above class 6 in present android devices as they cannot write faster. But the only 64GB microsd card is a class 10. Nobody makes anything that size in less speed.
Some points i disagree with in the OP's arstechinica article.
The Nexus 5 camera was a huge disappointment, especially after comments from high-ranking Googler Vic Gundotra stating that "we are committed to making Nexus phones insanely great cameras. Just you wait and see."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol, its a defnite improvement over the nex4 in image quality.
Android cameras arguably lag behind the iPhone in quality, so this new API may be Google's solution to that problem.fnite improvement of the nex4.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only if you're from the lowest common demominator which iphones target. Please no options at all, just one button to click.
The article goes on about how RAW was not ready for kit kat. So that means we ain't seeing anything until the next version of android come out. When will that happen ? next oct. So this is just a taste of things to come a year from now.
The main advantage of RAW is it allows more post processing with minimal loss to image quality. With jpegs, the most you can do is colour correct, contrast boost and then maybe a crop in desktop software before loosing too much detail.
One Twelve said:
This is why there are specialised chips to do RAW on DSLR's. The card write speeds are also much faster. There isn't a need for anything above class 6 in present android devices as they cannot write faster. But the only 64GB microsd card is a class 10. Nobody makes anything that size in less speed.
Some points i disagree with in the OP's arstechinica article.
Lol, its a defnite improvement over the nex4 in image quality.
Only if you're from the lowest common demominator which iphones target. Please no options at all, just one button to click.
The article goes on about how RAW was not ready for kit kat. So that means we ain't seeing anything until the next version of android come out. When will that happen ? next oct. So this is just a taste of things to come a year from now.
The main advantage of RAW is it allows more post processing with minimal loss to image quality. With jpegs, the most you can do is colour correct, contrast boost and then maybe a crop in desktop software before loosing too much detail.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That doesn't mean that because it was not available for launch of Kitkat that it couldn't make it's way to 4.4.1 or other iteration before lime pie or lolly cake or whatever they call it
danw_oz said:
That doesn't mean that because it was not available for launch of Kitkat that it couldn't make it's way to 4.4.1 or other iteration before lime pie or lolly cake or whatever they call it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True. I was not expecting a 4.3 or 4.4 thought it would jump to 5.0
I don't know whether there will be a 4.5. If so then there is a chance.
it will happen eventually though if Nokia is enabling RAW in the 1520. First i hear of that.
What this will mean is over processing is no longer an issue. A small power starved device like a cell phone isn't the best at doing image compression in the first place.
My Xperia Z1 kicks my sisters iPhone 5S around when I use manual mode... she even admits (and she is a loyal Apple fan) that I have a better Camera. Girlfriend continues to be pro-Apple and says that her iPhone 5 has better images (and it clearly does NOT).
Anyway this is something that has been long awaited, think we should have had it earlier. It could be ready for 4.4.1?
We never got to see what the camera can really do. All we saw is what the image compression program can do (!)
People think if they save in 20MP, the quality will be better, than 8MP but it isn't.
Larger sensor means you have more space for digital stabilisation via cropping.
Sony makes absolutely great hardware, but they really do need to get a better software team, Xperia's software has been lacking since I originally got my Xperia Play. If they had a better software team they would be unstoppable in my opinion.
Sony seems to do okay for some apps, like the album, Walkman player, movie player, photo editor etc.
It just struggles to do a decent camera app.
One Twelve said:
True. I was not expecting a 4.3 or 4.4 thought it would jump to 5.0
I don't know whether there will be a 4.5. If so then there is a chance.
it will happen eventually though if Nokia is enabling RAW in the 1520. First i hear of that.
What this will mean is over processing is no longer an issue. A small power starved device like a cell phone isn't the best at doing image compression in the first place.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Spot on, we don't then have to wait for Sony to fix their image processing algorithms
TheCraig said:
My Xperia Z1 kicks my sisters iPhone 5S around when I use manual mode... she even admits (and she is a loyal Apple fan) that I have a better Camera. Girlfriend continues to be pro-Apple and says that her iPhone 5 has better images (and it clearly does NOT).
Anyway this is something that has been long awaited, think we should have had it earlier. It could be ready for 4.4.1?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep agreed, even my old HTC phone was way better than my friends iphone (of the same vintage), and after a camera shoot off with him, he left with his tail between his legs :victory:
As for 4.4.1 who knows but all we can do is hope. I think Google realise now that most phones are now stepping over the 8MP barrier that they have to do stuff to keep up from the OS perspective, I would suggest even newer linux kernels that would allow better memory management and faster internal usb throughput 10-12MB/s just does cut it today, and less so if 4k video gets implemented.
danw_oz said:
As for 4.4.1 who knows but all we can do is hope. I think Google realise now that most phones are now stepping over the 8MP barrier that they have to do stuff to keep up from the OS perspective
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Nexus 5 camera is excellent. It captures stacks of detail and works really well in low-light. But you wouldn't know that from using the native camera app, which struggles to focus and really can't cope with moving objects in anything but excellent light. Anyone would think they did all their testing outdoors in the hot summer sun, without trying to capture a picture of your active baby in a living room.
Just like the Z1, the phone is let down by bad software not bad hardware.
But now it seems Google has acknowledged this and is seeking to fix it. Perhaps it will send out a message to Sony and others that you need the expertise in producing good camera software, not just chucking in a fantastic image sensor and hoping that's it.
danw_oz said:
Spot on, we don't then have to wait for Sony to fix their image processing algorithms
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sony won't need to do it. This means its unlikely we get to see a message like this any more.
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Why did it overheat, too much CPU from image compression (along with other things in the background).
The real question is whether you can tell the difference. I have to believe a PC taking its own sweet time to batch process many images will do a better job than a mobile that needs to put out product quickly so you don't wait too long to take another photo.
How long will it take to write a 20-30MB RAW file to internal memory ? ~2 seconds
Internal memory would be faster than external.
One Twelve said:
Sony won't need to do it. This means its unlikely we get to see a message like this any more.
Why did it overheat, too much CPU from image compression (along with other things in the background).
The real question is whether you can tell the difference. I have to believe a PC taking its own sweet time to batch process many images will do a better job than a mobile that needs to put out product quickly so you don't wait too long to take another photo.
How long will it take to write a 20-30MB RAW file to internal memory ? ~2 seconds
Internal memory would be faster than external.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same as all other cameras they cache the images in internal memory then write as fast as they can to the memory card, this is also why many cameras have a low limit of buffered images before the continuous shooting stops for a time or slows right down.
FWIW, since there's probably quite a few people concerned about the picture quality on unlocked phones, I did a simple comparison. One Z3C with completely stock/locked bootloader, and one Z3C rooted with unlocked bootloader.
Here are a few of the pictures. The first couple taken with Auto mode, the locked bootloader consistently came out much cleaner - especially in low light. Switching to 20Mp Manual mode, however, both phones took fairly comparable photos and the unlocked one actually did an ever-so-slightly better job focusing.
{
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"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
I assume that using an alternative camera on our phone implies not using sony proprietary tecnology, so a test can be easily carried out on any phone regardless of the bootloader.
Am I wrong?
I suspect only the 8MP and lower modes trigger the post processing. That'd also be why the SCN modes are only available at 8MP and less.
That means 8MP manual mode.
Then if you dont have the DRM files, it never triggers and you just get whatever additional post processing stuff the camera app does.
In particular in low light mode it does pixel correlation (ie pixel binning) which works rather well IMO... heck even the 12800 ISO mode works. Turns black images into something visible, even if the quality is not exactly great
Interesting, thanks for posting the pics. It sounds like it's the software holding it back, maybe some backports or third party alternative might solve this?
Thanks for the comparisons! Are low light photos as effected in 20.7MP manual mode as they are in 8MP?
If we root without unlocking the bootloader and install an AOSP ROM, will we still get image quality similar to an unlocked bootloader one?
There is no installing of any ROM (except official) without unlock.
And yeah, every Custom ROM will not have the Sony postprecessing except if somebody is able to activate it without DRM and also port it.
Bäcker said:
There is no installing of any ROM (except official) without unlock.
And yeah, every Custom ROM will not have the Sony postprecessing except if somebody is able to activate it without DRM and also port it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What about the L Camera APIs? Will they help the unlocked bootloader's camera performance be similar to the one without unlocked bootloader?
darkgoon3r96 said:
What about the L Camera APIs? Will they help the unlocked bootloader's camera performance be similar to the one without unlocked bootloader?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We won't know until L lands and is available on devices!
In theory, you should be able to simulate camera performance sans-DRM keys by using another camera such as Google Camera. However not all camera apps are equal, so it's not really a 'fair test'. Should give you an idea first hand though.
This is a post I made yesterday which might help clarify the issue surrounding the camera and DRM (as per my understanding)
Scottland said:
My understanding is that with a custom/unlocked recovery, you'll lose the TA partition with DRM keys. So you'll lose out on anything that needs the DRM keys. If a root exploit is found, then you could use the standard ROM with root and not touch the bootloader/recovery/TA partition. But as soon as an update rolls out, you'll lose root again (and likely the exploit with it).
Backing up the TA partition means that you can restore it to stock (i.e. to sell or for warranty repair).
Again, as per my understanding - any AOSP/CM based ROM will lose any of the Sony proprietary software and features anyway, no different to Samsung or HTC in that respect. I remember having a HTC One (M7) last year where the camera was worse on CM because HTC used their own post processing software within their camera app.
In theory, it may be possible for someone to come up with a stock based ROM with root baked in that keeps some the Sony proprietary software etc, but this is unlikely I would say.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ragnorok161 said:
Thanks for the comparisons! Are low light photos as effected in 20.7MP manual mode as they are in 8MP?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. I took some more comparison shots using different modes, and the unlocked phone consistently shows a bit more noise than the unlocked one using both auto, as well as manual modes.
That said, in normal lighting conditions, I am finding that Sony trends to overcompensate and many of the pictures from the locked phone are over sharpened when I zoom in.
When i get some time tonight, I will try to get some comparison shots using the stock android camera app using both devices.
Do I understand that right? I only get good pictures on a stock rom with sony camera app, since Google camera (or any other camera app) has no use for the DRM library?
---------- Post added at 03:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 PM ----------
dew.man said:
Yes. I took some more comparison shots using different modes, and the unlocked phone consistently shows a bit more noise than the unlocked one using both auto, as well as manual modes.
That said, in normal lighting conditions, I am finding that Sony trends to overcompensate and many of the pictures from the locked phone are over sharpened when I zoom in.
When i get some time tonight, I will try to get some comparison shots using the stock android camera app using both devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you do your shots with Focal too? To see the difference between stock and third party app!?
spychodelics said:
Do I understand that right? I only get good pictures on a stock rom with sony camera app, since Google camera (or any other camera app) has no use for the DRM library?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No exactly. Initial results between the Sony camera and the stock/android camera were very comparable (at least with normal lighting). I'll try to get more specifics later tonight, but right now, I'm thinking the major difference lies in Sony's proprietary noise reduction algorithms for high-ISO/low light scenarios. Looks like their camera application does a very good job of pulling shapes/images out of low light conditions.
spychodelics said:
Can you do your shots with Focal too? To see the difference between stock and third party app!?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What do you mean by "focal"? I presume you're referring to the focus mode in manual settings?
Nope, im sorry, i meant to use a different camera app, like Focal.
I would really appriciate to see the difference
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=fr.xplod.focal
dew.man said:
Yes. I took some more comparison shots using different modes, and the unlocked phone consistently shows a bit more noise than the unlocked one using both auto, as well as manual modes.
That said, in normal lighting conditions, I am finding that Sony trends to overcompensate and many of the pictures from the locked phone are over sharpened when I zoom in.
When i get some time tonight, I will try to get some comparison shots using the stock android camera app using both devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks dude, I really appreciate this. Please take alot of comparison photos - the more the merrier. And, if possible, also use different apps such as Focal or Google Camera as discussed above. Not meaning to put too much workload on you, but I seriously think that we'll be waiting for quite some time (at least months) before there's a new exploit available to root our phones with locked BL. Therefore, these comparison shots are just about the only way we'll be able to decide if it's worth it to unlock the bootloader now instead of waiting. I think you're one of the few lucky people out there with both a locked and unlocked Z3C available. Personally, I'm really dying for root and feel hamstrung every day without it, so if the quality loss isn't too severe, I'll probably go ahead and unlock the BL and never look back.
Thanks very much OP. Much appreciated. As others mentioned it'd be great to see more including the stock Google Camera for comparison!
More pics
Sorry guys - been very busy at work today so I didn't get any outdoor pics.
Looks like the Sony proprietary stuff is MOSTLY for the stock camera High ISO mode. Google camera and Focal pics come out very similar between the two phones. However, one or two of the shots do appear to have a bit more noise in the dark areas on the unlocked phone so their customization might go a bit deeper.
Here are a couple shots in very low light using the Google camera
Here is the same picture but using the Sony Auto mode. It really is amazing what Sony is able to pull out in those conditions (keep in mind this is without flash).
And now the same scene using the Google camera but with a flash
Lastly, here is a picture with normal lighting using the Focal camera. The thing that caught my attention here, is that even using a third party application, while the pictures appear very similar in overall quality, the locked phone seemed to do a slightly better job with the noise reduction in the darker/shaded corner.
That's all I have for now. Will try to get some more tomorrow with better lighting and more landscape/further objects. Unfortunately, time is very tight this week so I can't make any promises...
Oh, and here are some comparisons between the different cameras (Sony, Google, and Focal)
First from the locked bootloader
and next from the unlocked/rooted phone
It appears to me from the auto pics that in auto mode the z3 is using a high f-stop to force a very small focus range.
Does the z3 have an adjustable f-stop?
I have used cameras where you could set the f-stop and then the camera would auto set the ISO to adjust the exposure level. Can the z3 do that?
Well, wait, all of this is by definition in software, right? It's not like it's keeping the camera from catching an image a certain way. Since the hardware reacts the same with or without DRM, isn't it possible to fix it yourself? Add your own noise-reduction, keep it from oversharpening... That could even be preferable to a lot of people's tastes. Look at the whole situation around the Moto G's camera, and the switch for noise reduction they found and immediately turned and left off.
Great comparison OP. And yes, like you, I am completely floored by stock Sony camera's ability to capture shapes and colors in essentially complete darkness. Yes, there's noise (although they touch it up nicely I must say), but that's better than just blackness that every other camera captures under the same conditions.
These are straight from the camera, no editing. Also, it was crazy windy and I don't have a tripod for this thing...so they are a bit blurry. If it was calm, these would be a lot better. You can see a few were better than the others (I was using objects to set the phone on and keep it more steady), just luck of the draw due to it being so windy.
I am AMAZED by this camera at night. Just BEAUTIFUL. Up until now, shooting pics at night with a smart phone was a COMPLETE waste of time. Now? Totally doable.
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Were these on Auto
Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk
LancerV said:
Were these on Auto
Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
No, manual. You do have to know what you're doing, but with a tripod setup of some kind, this phone is capable of a LOT.
Thanks for sharing! They definitely look good, it's good to see on manual mode with some understanding of the settings you can get some nice clean shots.
Freshtojeff said:
Thanks for sharing! They definitely look good, it's good to see on manual mode with some understanding of the settings you can get some nice clean shots.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With a steadier hand it would have been even better lol.
AWESOME! i suggested LG to give us more options to camera, like 1080p 60fps, jpeg quality at 100% and slight more control, just like XCAM for G3.
But yeah, nothing can compete with G4 camera, all my friends rape this camera so hard.
IlyaKol said:
No, manual. You do have to know what you're doing, but with a tripod setup of some kind, this phone is capable of a LOT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You mind putting these up someplace so we can check the exifs ?
imgur unfortunately strips them out.
flickr is best, failing which googledrive or dropbox etc.
IlyaKol said:
No, manual. You do have to know what you're doing, but with a tripod setup of some kind, this phone is capable of a LOT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would you mind sharing some of the settings or at least the basic how to use the manual mode? I can see from the pics that you a professional photographer. Would you please outline some instructions for us or at least point us in the direction where we can learn how to shoot with a manual camera? Thanks
One Twelve said:
You mind putting these up someplace so we can check the exifs ?
imgur unfortunately strips them out.
flickr is best, failing which googledrive or dropbox etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See/try attached.
llaugerm said:
Would you mind sharing some of the settings or at least the basic how to use the manual mode? I can see from the pics that you a professional photographer. Would you please outline some instructions for us or at least point us in the direction where we can learn how to shoot with a manual camera? Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Photography is a complicated thing with many principles and techniques. I also like to say that it's half luck lol. Right place, right time type stuff (at least for the photography I did/do). In general though, the 'foundation' of knowing how to use a DSLR or in this case a smartphone with manual controls is the following:
Aperture: This is a number signified by something like F1.8 (LG G4). This signifies how wide a lens can open and maintain it's speed (by allowing more light, you can make the shutter speed fast - more on that below); the wider the better because it allows in more light. In the DSLR world, a F2.8 (fast) lens will cost 2x as much as a F4.5 (slow) lens, if not more. For the sake of the LG G4, this isn't really something you can change from what I can tell.
ISO (aka Sensitivity): ISO is one of the more important things to know, IMO. The reason is that it can have a DRASTIC effect on your images if not used properly. The way ISO works is, like aperture, a lower number is better. In the case of the G4, the ISO goes from 50 to 2700 in various increments. Say you go from 50 to 100, what this means is that your camera needs only half as much light for the same exposure because you made it more sensitive to the already existing light. When you change your ISO, you'll notice that your preview on the phone gets considerably brighter each time you go up. The reason why it is important to know how to use ISO properly (in combination with shutter speed) is because the higher you go, the more 'grainy' an image will get. This is why I always try to shoot at 250-300 ISO or below. It's a respectable range. But, the images were dark, so I had to mess with the shutter speed. Keep reading.
Shutter Speed (aka Exposure Time): This is the other vital piece of information you need to know. As I mentioned above, the lower you go in the ISO, the darker your image will be. To combat this, you need to increase the shutter (make it stay open longer) in order to allow more light in to the censor to compensate. If you shoot a picture with a 50 ISO and a 1/30th of a second shutter (reasonably fast), your image may end up being pitch black. BUT, if you shoot an image with a 50 ISO and a 2 second shutter (slow), you'll likely get something that more or less resembles an image. However, with a long shutter, which was my issue with the pictures I posted...you MUST have a tripod. The natural movement (minuscule) of the human body + wind + building shake (I was on a massive plaza with a roadway underneath) will cause the images to be blurred. If I had made the ISO 1000 and the shutter 1/60th of a second (fast), I wouldn't need to really keep steady, but the images would have been very grainy. The shutter on the LG G4 goes from 30 seconds (incredibly slow - you will DEFINITELY need a tripod unless you're dead lol to keep steady) to 1/6000th of a second (insanely fast, but you'll need a TON of ISO to make the image even remotely visible in a darker situation).
Focus: I always shoot on manual focus (even with DSLR) but you can use auto focus. This just means that the camera will try to decide what you're trying to take a picture of (objects close or far) and will focus accordingly. With manual focus, you pick if you want the camera to focus far or near.
White Balance: Honestly, this just changes the 'color' of your photos to be more warm or cool...even when I was shooting weddings I never messed with it on the camera. If I needed to change it, I changed it post-wedding during my editing sessions.
That's very basic and I hope I touched on the important things...may have forgotten a bit here or there but that should get you started in understanding the general concept of ISO and shutter speed and their relationship.
IlyaKol said:
See/try attached.
Photography is a complicated thing with many principles and techniques. I also like to say that it's half luck lol. Right place, right time type stuff (at least for the photography I did/do). In general though, the 'foundation' of knowing how to use a DSLR or in this case a smartphone with manual controls is the following:
Aperture: This is a number signified by something like F1.8 (LG G4). This signifies how wide a lens can open and maintain it's speed (by allowing more light, you can make the shutter speed fast - more on that below); the wider the better because it allows in more light. In the DSLR world, a F2.8 (fast) lens will cost 2x as much as a F4.5 (slow) lens, if not more. For the sake of the LG G4, this isn't really something you can change from what I can tell.
ISO (aka Sensitivity): ISO is one of the more important things to know, IMO. The reason is that it can have a DRASTIC effect on your images if not used properly. The way ISO works is, like aperture, a lower number is better. In the case of the G4, the ISO goes from 50 to 2700 in various increments. Say you go from 50 to 100, what this means is that your camera needs only half as much light for the same exposure because you made it more sensitive to the already existing light. When you change your ISO, you'll notice that your preview on the phone gets considerably brighter each time you go up. The reason why it is important to know how to use ISO properly (in combination with shutter speed) is because the higher you go, the more 'grainy' an image will get. This is why I always try to shoot at 250-300 ISO or below. It's a respectable range. But, the images were dark, so I had to mess with the shutter speed. Keep reading.
Shutter Speed (aka Exposure Time): This is the other vital piece of information you need to know. As I mentioned above, the lower you go in the ISO, the darker your image will be. To combat this, you need to increase the shutter (make it stay open longer) in order to allow more light in to the censor to compensate. If you shoot a picture with a 50 ISO and a 1/30th of a second shutter (reasonably fast), your image may end up being pitch black. BUT, if you shoot an image with a 50 ISO and a 2 second shutter (slow), you'll likely get something that more or less resembles an image. However, with a long shutter, which was my issue with the pictures I posted...you MUST have a tripod. The natural movement (minuscule) of the human body + wind + building shake (I was on a massive plaza with a roadway underneath) will cause the images to be blurred. If I had made the ISO 1000 and the shutter 1/60th of a second (fast), I wouldn't need to really keep steady, but the images would have been very grainy. The shutter on the LG G4 goes from 30 seconds (incredibly slow - you will DEFINITELY need a tripod unless you're dead lol to keep steady) to 1/6000th of a second (insanely fast, but you'll need a TON of ISO to make the image even remotely visible in a darker situation).
Focus: I always shoot on manual focus (even with DSLR) but you can use auto focus. This just means that the camera will try to decide what you're trying to take a picture of (objects close or far) and will focus accordingly. With manual focus, you pick if you want the camera to focus far or near.
White Balance: Honestly, this just changes the 'color' of your photos to be more warm or cool...even when I was shooting weddings I never messed with it on the camera. If I needed to change it, I changed it post-wedding during my editing sessions.
That's very basic and I hope I touched on the important things...may have forgotten a bit here or there but that should get you started in understanding the general concept of ISO and shutter speed and their relationship.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow!!! Thank you for that great introduction to photography. I don't know how good I'll become shooting pics to my two years old that she moves pretty fast. Lol. This post was a great tutorial!! Thank you.
llaugerm said:
Wow!!! Thank you for that great introduction to photography. I don't know how good I'll become shooting pics to my two years old that she moves pretty fast. Lol. This post was a great tutorial!! Thank you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol, that's why I quit shooting weddings, sold my camera gear and bought a motorcycle lol. Shooting humans SUCKS...just too unpredictable and tough to get a good picture. They blink, don't stand still, etc. lol.
For a 2 year old, you're likely going to want to stick to using full auto mode (or at least a fast shutter and high ISO). I'd use manual mode for things like nature pictures, etc. where objects are stationary.
IlyaKol said:
See/try attached.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nope, board attachments are no better, also strip out all exifs
One Twelve said:
nope, board attachments are no better, also strip out all exifs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try this zip. I resized the images to 1024 by x but EXIF should still be good.
IlyaKol said:
Try this zip. I resized the images to 1024 by x but EXIF should still be good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see you are in Albany. My in-laws are in Albany and we go there quite frequently. The next time I go to Albany I will invite for a cup coffee!. I'll PM you my email.
IlyaKol said:
With a steadier hand it would have been even better lol.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok , now i understand better, mostly ISO 200 shots with exposure times ranging from 1/4, some at 0.5s, going up to 1s and the last one at 4s.
the sharpest one i could make out was the 1/4, things get softer at 1/2s and beyond.
if you can pull off a steady handheld 1/4 then the OIS on this thing is working and is as good as on the iP6+
Here is another one I took last night. ISO was 50 and Shutter was 2 seconds. Keep in mind that Instagram badly compresses the images on Android. Also, the bike image was also a 50 ISO and a 4 second shutter (to get the light trails):
IlyaKol said:
Here is another one I took last night. ISO was 50 and Shutter was 2 seconds. Keep in mind that Instagram badly compresses the images on Android. Also, the bike image was also a 50 ISO and a 4 second shutter (to get the light trails):
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you hold the device in your hands or did you use some kind of tripod? Really nice pics.
Galaxicos said:
Did you hold the device in your hands or did you use some kind of tripod? Really nice pics.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Queensboro Bridge picture was resting on a railing. The bike picture (longer exposure so harder) was held by hand. I have pretty steady hands, all things considered. Tips: put your elbows into your sides and hold your breath. Should steady you.
IlyaKol said:
Queensboro Bridge picture was resting on a railing. The bike picture (longer exposure so harder) was held by hand. I have pretty steady hands, all things considered. Tips: put your elbows into your sides and hold your breath. Should steady you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The bridge picture is really awesome. I don't have a steady hand. I have a DSLR as well and always have issues with this, but resting on something is a good workaround
Galaxicos said:
The bridge picture is really awesome. I don't have a steady hand. I have a DSLR as well and always have issues with this, but resting on something is a good workaround
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, if you can find something to rest on. Unfortunately, not always available lol. I find that sitting down and resting your arms on your knees can sometimes steady the shot too...I get creative lol.