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Why on earth have Samsung made such a mess of marketing the P6800?

I have a P6800.
I think it's a great tablet with many technical innovations.
I accept it wouldn't be to everyones taste.
I've worked in electronics in both retail, wholesale and manufacturing for a fair proportion of my working life.
Why haven't Samsung yet worked out that announcing a new product, then making the market wait months and months for shipment, while continuing to announce new products (which also won't ship for months) is undermining their impact in the market.
The new product announcements deter individuals and more importantly retailers (bricks and mortar not virtual) from carrying the product as they'll be concerned they'll either get left with stock or get hit with price drops.
Grey importing from the Far East destroys retailers willingness to carry a product with a RRP of £350 when it's available from Far East drop shippers for around 2/3 of that price.
This scattergun approach to product launches and lack of discipline in global pricing is seriously undermining Samsungs long term success in my opinion, someone somewhere high up in the organisation should really step back and make some hard decisions on strategy.
With so many products to support it takes a disproportionate amount of time to release updates (as we've seen with the P6800 6 months after ICS release) and the customer experience is therefore diminished.
Fanboiism only goes so far, a coherent, global, long term, production and marketing plan is what works in the market.

They also need to work on their pricing - I'd have bought one of these 7.7's long ago if they'd been realistically priced. As they are (in the UK) they're simply overpriced.
In general the Galaxy Tab range is just way too expensive - I know 2 people who bought iPad 3's instead as they were the same price as the 16GB Galaxy Tab 10.1!

You have to differentiate between lower price and diifferent price.
Personally I think the 7.7 is worth every penny and if Samsung did better marketing they could show the differences between the 7.7 and the IPad 3.
Instead they now have 5 different product ranges or 6 if you include the Galaxy Note....
7 Plus
7.7
8.9
10.1
7 v2
These, in theory, come in various memory sizes although I've never seen any memory size of more then 16gb on the 8.9, 7.7 or 7 plus ranges.
The average time between announcement and shipping seems to be 5 months and even today in the UK you cannot buy a UK sourced 7.7 3G as far as I know and it's 8 months since it was announced.
There are rumours of a 11.6? unit coming.
While I understand the desire to have a comprehensive range the reality is that Samsung are spreading themselves too thin and instead of launching 1 product in say 3 sizes they see each version as a totally new product. This means they themselves are confused about the offerings, this is reflected in the lack of marketing 'punch' in their message.
My suggestions for what could help.
1. Stop any new tablet announcements for 12 months.
2. Simplify the product range for an announcement in 12 months.
The range should be....
11.6 with no bezel (so same physical form factor as the current 10.1)
8.9 with no bezel
7 or 7.7
All should have Super Amoled Plus (or anything newer and better that's arrived by then)
The range should be technically identical except for the screen size (the specifics of the offerings would need to be worked out nearer to the launch)
Ship globally the full range within 4 weeks of the announcement, concentrate your marketing spend to this one 'product' in three size 'flavours'.
Sit back and reap the rewards.

In what regards consumer electronics, Samsung is being crushed by its own growth, "ungovernance" and lack of focus.
I've noticed this has been going on since, at least, 2007 year of my first interaction with them on account of the BDP-5000 combo player.
Like many Asian corporate giants, seen from the outside, Samsung seems like either (1) they don't have anyone at the helm or (2) they have too many people allowed at that very same helm, just giving the odd directional input, as they cluelessly seem fit.
When I see a photo of Gee-Sung Choi I don't think "Hey!...So that's the man behind all those incredible devices...".
Instead I think "...So, this is the guy behind that ugly mess..."
GK
(PS: Mine was 479 EUR at Dixons, in the Netherlands...excellent, excellent price)

You can buy a UK sourced 3G 7.7 from Clove Technology. Product code is GT-P6800LSAXEU. Price is an eye watering GBP478.80. When it gets to GBP350 I might get one. Current price is just too expensive for something which will be superseded in 6 months.

Yep!!
I am no marketing expert but even I can say that Samsung are continually missing out on opportunities for more sales, and more to the point getting themselves known. This isn't just the case with the P6800.
I know marketing/advertising is expensive but the rewards they would reap would be huge. Especially with the new budget Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 tablet, there are many people out there hungry for a capable tablet, but don't they want to shell out £500 for a tablet. An advertising campaign would make all the difference.
Look at the Galaxy Note! It took them 3 months to start TV adverts for it here. They really haven't a clue about marketing. Instead they are churning out products left, right and centre. Trying to cover all bases, it's an insane tactic.
The 7.7 is definitely over priced here, over £400 for the Wifi only model is just nuts. I don't own a 7.7 just yet, but I am very tempted. However, I don't have too much faith that ICS is actually coming to the 7.7.. also it's not been a very popular device for developers to play with, we can blame the price tag for that. It kinda feels like that even Samsung aren't really that interested in the 7.7. It's availability in general says something to me... then again Samsung are just a strange company.
Samsung have this frantic idea to push as many new products out the door, their business model is so wrong. They are shooting themselves in the foot.

jeremyr62 said:
You can buy a UK sourced 3G 7.7 from Clove Technology. Product code is GT-P6800LSAXEU. Price is an eye watering GBP478.80. When it gets to GBP350 I might get one. Current price is just too expensive for something which will be superseded in 6 months.
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Yea, Expansys have them too (SAMP680016GBS) at GBP479.99. I agree that GBP350's more realistic, but I'm not holding my breath.
I've just checked and you can pick them up on Amazon.com for USD597 (GBP371). Yet again we pay through the nose in Europe - Amazon.de's selling them for EUR742 (GBP591) and Amazon.fr for EUR683 (GBP544)!

Samsung probably doesn't go by the same metrics and ideas as you. People here often refer to the 7.7 as Samsung's "flagship tablet". It's really not. It's certainly their nicest one, and one that probably is the most difficult to manufacture.
The 10.1 is their "flagship" since that's what's selling and that's the direct competitor to the iPad (or least it used to be). The 7.7 is more of a niche edge thing.

burhanistan said:
Samsung probably doesn't go by the same metrics and ideas as you. People here often refer to the 7.7 as Samsung's "flagship tablet". It's really not. It's certainly their nicest one, and one that probably is the most difficult to manufacture.
The 10.1 is their "flagship" since that's what's selling and that's the direct competitor to the iPad (or least it used to be). The 7.7 is more of a niche edge thing.
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The 10.1 isn't selling in the UK or quite a few other parts of Europe.
My point isn't about this tablet or that tablet, it's about Samsungs lack of overall strategy.
Simplistically if you had 1 product in 3 size 'flavours' it allows you to price differentiate accordingly. Especially as the Internet means that your pricing strategy has to be global.
The current RRP pricing in the UK could work (and I know some people here will say it never would) if they concentrated their marketing spend and targetted it effectively, the reality is they're just spread way too thin with too many products and no clear strategy.

55brianb said:
I've just checked and you can pick them up on Amazon.com for USD597 (GBP371). Yet again we pay through the nose in Europe - Amazon.de's selling them for EUR742 (GBP591) and Amazon.fr for EUR683 (GBP544)!
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Here (austria) you can get the 7.7 for 499EUR. Shipping in EU is around 10EUR. Just wanted to state that because it seems to me that everybody thinks you can't get this device at a proper price. (german price is very overwhelmed because the tab 7.7 isn't officially available in germany!)
By the way I don't think the price is a huge problem as you get the device for "free" when signing a contract for mobile internet, and without that the tab is pretty much useless anyways.
Back to topic: I totally agree samsung is carrying a very strange marketing strategy. Also I think the idea of "unifying" the tabs, so that screen size is only technical difference and launch all of them with one big marketing campaign would be alot better and more efficient than just rolling out device after device after device. I can imagine some people don't want to buy a tab because you can be sure 2 or 3 months later the next, better model is announced. I think better support (ie releasing updates in time and for a longer period of time) would be much better than having slightly better hardware every few weeks.

OP actually listed marketing strategies of Apple. Unfortunately Samsung could not, and probably never will follow the very same strategies.
Samsung actually follows the best marketing strategy, only that strategy focuses on profit, rather than customers, like Apple does. That's why you think Samsung made a mess in marketing, from customer's perspective.
Also, price segmentation, wide variety of product line and hidden product roadmap is exactly most vendors do for decades, for profit maximization. Not that I believe these are the best strategies, Apple for one has proven them wrong.
In short Apple's marketing strategies must accompany with market-dominating products, which is a very risky marketing model for most corporations. (I think I should stop at this point, I found discussing marketing in tech forum boring indeed )

九千. said:
OP actually listed marketing strategies of Apple. Unfortunately Samsung could not, and probably never will follow the very same strategies.
Samsung actually follows the best marketing strategy, only that strategy focuses on profit, rather than customers, like Apple does. That's why you think Samsung made a mess in marketing, from customer's perspective.
Also, price segmentation, wide variety of product line and hidden product roadmap is exactly most vendors do for decades, for profit maximization. Not that I believe these are the best strategies, Apple for one has proven them wrong.
In short Apple's marketing strategies must accompany with market-dominating products, which is a very risky marketing model for most corporations. (I think I should stop at this point, I found discussing marketing in tech forum boring indeed )
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Errr...
I didn't quote use the marketing strategies of Apple. Apple have a very different value proposition which is based upon diverse revenue streams.
1. While they make good money on their hardware their tight control of their App and ITunes stores generate them substantial and very profitable secondary revenue streams.
2. They are single product focused (the continued sale of the IPad2 is to run down production lines in my opinion). They only have single products in a segment, albeit with different memory sizes.
3. While they present themselves as a technical leader they are in my opinion a very good marketing operation who package up others technical breakthroughs.
I met Steve Jobs back in about 1979, he was pretty good at pinching other peoples ideas even then.
I disagree with your assessment that Samsung focus on profit, frankly the marketing of their tablets in Europe has been non existent. Unless you're selling a product you're not making profits and allowing such large pricing differentials in markets just encourages grey imports and undermines your message to your stockists.
I know of at least two major UK retailers who carry Samsung tablets but don't carry the full range and don't have presentation units on display, when I asked them why they said "...because we don't know where their focus is...." (my paraphrase).

I'm glad that you are interesting in this boring topic.
pinsb said:
Errr...
I didn't quote use the marketing strategies of Apple. Apple have a very different value proposition which is based upon diverse revenue streams.
1. While they make good money on their hardware their tight control of their App and ITunes stores generate them substantial and very profitable secondary revenue streams.
2. They are single product focused (the continued sale of the IPad2 is to run down production lines in my opinion). They only have single products in a segment, albeit with different memory sizes.
3. While they present themselves as a technical leader they are in my opinion a very good marketing operation who package up others technical breakthroughs.
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Actually I think we were not discussing above three point before. Anyway, I agree with you except point 3, I have problems with Apple in their motives on crushing technological advancement, least honoring them with the title of technical leader.
pinsb said:
I met Steve Jobs back in about 1979, he was pretty good at pinching other peoples ideas even then.
I disagree with your assessment that Samsung focus on profit, frankly the marketing of their tablets in Europe has been non existent. Unless you're selling a product you're not making profits and allowing such large pricing differentials in markets just encourages grey imports and undermines your message to your stockists.
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It depends on regions. As liberal as they seem to be, many EU countries have strict imports restrictions that effectively repel foreign imports. I can't speak for Samsung, but in our case our electronics products have to go through complicated regulations on standards and safety measures, before being allowed to import, with applied period and quantity constraints. Also, EU has their own patent office, on the top of USPTO, which in effect erecting a huge import barrier to all import goods, especially electronics.
Given such a huge barrier, it makes sense for a large corporation cutting back budget in marketing. For example, delay in launching Galaxy Tabs in Germany as a result of on-going litigation causing them to lose the time-to-market, and you wouldn't be surprise when they retreat all the marketing campagin planned.
pinsb said:
I know of at least two major UK retailers who carry Samsung tablets but don't carry the full range and don't have presentation units on display, when I asked them why they said "...because we don't know where their focus is...." (my paraphrase).
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UK has a different story. I cannot detail that without offending British Government or people supporting them. So please let me pass on that. As to the reason why Samsung widely expands the product lines in Galaxy Tab, I think I have explained before. This is not about market-focusing, it is about market-segmentation.
I wish my above points reaching you.

I think Samsung have got the right strategy by offering a choice of different tablet sizes in the same way that laptops are offered in different sizes. A lot of the big laptop players such as Toshiba are now entering the market and offering a choice of 3 or 4 tablet sizes. People have become brain washed by the Apple one size fits all approach.

Crazy prices, and here is me, getting the tab for 499 Swiss Francs

Having seen the Sammie press release about 9m pre sales of SG3 handsets I now understand.......
Sammie see their route to market (In Europe at least) as via Carriers, they aren't really that interested in marketing products except as an adjunct to assist the Carriers sell handsets. As tablets are much more often a stand alone sale it's had no attention.
While I still think the P6800 is a great product I've come to the realisation that Sammie will never give it the attention it should have got, as a result sales will never reach their potential and therefore ROM development will always be restricted.
Hopefully the CM9 situation will accelerate when ICS Colonel Sauces are release, the developers have already done a fantastic job of getting a 90% working build.
Ho Hum.....
To sell the tablet and replace with the new Google (Asus) Nexus (depending on spec) or see what happens.
I'm feeling pretty let down by Sammie right now and to be honest it'll influence my decision about buying Sammie products in the future.

pinsb said:
You have to differentiate between lower price and diifferent price.
Personally I think the 7.7 is worth every penny and if Samsung did better marketing they could show the differences between the 7.7 and the IPad 3.
Instead they now have 5 different product ranges or 6 if you include the Galaxy Note....
7 Plus
7.7
8.9
10.1
7 v2
These, in theory, come in various memory sizes although I've never seen any memory size of more then 16gb on the 8.9, 7.7 or 7 plus ranges.
The average time between announcement and shipping seems to be 5 months and even today in the UK you cannot buy a UK sourced 7.7 3G as far as I know and it's 8 months since it was announced.
There are rumours of a 11.6? unit coming.
While I understand the desire to have a comprehensive range the reality is that Samsung are spreading themselves too thin and instead of launching 1 product in say 3 sizes they see each version as a totally new product. This means they themselves are confused about the offerings, this is reflected in the lack of marketing 'punch' in their message.
My suggestions for what could help.
1. Stop any new tablet announcements for 12 months.
2. Simplify the product range for an announcement in 12 months.
The range should be....
11.6 with no bezel (so same physical form factor as the current 10.1)
8.9 with no bezel
7 or 7.7
All should have Super Amoled Plus (or anything newer and better that's arrived by then)
The range should be technically identical except for the screen size (the specifics of the offerings would need to be worked out nearer to the launch)
Ship globally the full range within 4 weeks of the announcement, concentrate your marketing spend to this one 'product' in three size 'flavours'.
Sit back and reap the rewards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They should all have wacom digitizers. That's all I'll add. I dont care if its as much or more than an ipad. I HATE HATE HATE apple.
Samsung already offers a superior product. If they consildated their Note line-up into these specs, included gs3, gave the gTab 7.7 and gs3 wacom digitizers and launched them ALL with ICS at launch, let touchwiz be an opt-in with first FOTA, EVERYONE would be happy.
Sent from my GT-P6800

Yep!!
I am no marketing expert but even I can say that Samsung are continually missing out on opportunities for more sales, and more to the point getting themselves known. This isn't just the case with the P6800.
I know marketing/advertising is expensive but the rewards they would reap would be huge. Especially with the new budget Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 tablet, there are many people out there hungry for a capable tablet, but don't they want to shell out £500 for a tablet. An advertising campaign would make all the difference.
Look at the Galaxy Note! It took them 3 months to start TV adverts for it here. They really haven't a clue about marketing. Instead they are churning out products left, right and centre. Trying to cover all bases, it's an insane tactic.
The 7.7 is definitely over priced here, over £400 for the Wifi only model is just nuts. I don't own a 7.7 just yet, but I am very tempted. However, I don't have too much faith that ICS is actually coming to the 7.7.. also it's not been a very popular device for developers to play with, we can blame the price tag for that. It kinda feels like that even Samsung aren't really that interested in the 7.7. It's availability in general says something to me... then again Samsung are just a strange company.
Samsung have this frantic idea to push as many new products out the door, their business model is so wrong. They are shooting themselves in the foot.
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Be more than tempted. This is the best device on the market. From what I understand, samsung is having a hard time supplying the screens. The production process is outrageously precise and there are only two factories producing them in the whole world. Those two factories are supplying htc, motorola, and what's the other 7" amoled tablet?
Its US$699 in the states and only offered under Verizon. They took out telephony hardware. So the only way to get the gsm version is through import. I got mine used for US$500 and is in excellent condition.
The sad thing is, in my personal opinion, this technology is the greatest innovation in mark-making since the invention of painting. PM me for more on that one.
Sent from my GT-P6800

To me it looks a bit like Samsung is using a shotgun blast of models and sizes to look what the public wants.
If it becomes successful enough it gets an followup and else they try something different.

Mario387 said:
To me it looks a bit like Samsung is using a shotgun blast of models and sizes to look what the public wants.
If it becomes successful enough it gets an followup and else they try something different.
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What the public want are good quality, speedy, reliable tablets, priced fairly. The first company to deliver on this will make a killing. Simple.
Samsung's trying to compete with Apple, which I now think they are close to in terms of hardware. Where they appear to be going wrong is in their pricing strategy - they are simply pricing themselves out of the market, and as long as their prices remain high they'll lose out on potentially massive sales.

Is America Screwed when it comes to Samsung?

First of all I am not what I would call a fan boy even though every major appliance in my house is a Samsung, even the dishwasher. I have an S3 phone and the Note 10.1 is my constant companion. Lately I have been wondering as we wait for JB update (both phone and tablet) if the Apple ruling in the USA is hampering the speed that we are getting Samsung updates or software. Hell, you can barely get any accessories for the Note 10.1 in the US much less an update. There are even issues with some software available on the the Samsung app store that due to licensing issues Samsung can't sell in the US but the rest of the world has full access.
I love my tablet and would not trade it for any other. Works great as it is and if JB never came I would be fine. However, I think that it is possible we will see a much different user experience here in the states over the next few years when it comes to Samsung Tablets and Phones than the rest of the world. Until Apple gets off the crack pipe and stops litigating every electronic item that comes out we may have an issue.
Thoughts?

rap6388 said:
...if the Apple ruling in the USA is hampering the speed that we are getting Samsung updates or software.
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It's just Samsung's priorities or lack thereof. HTC's just as bad. And both typically launch updates internationally first so our friends overseas aren't getting something we're not since other than the one German carrier ROM no Note has JB. The JB roll-out on the SGS3's not going particularly well and the One X JB update went back to the drawing board after problems were encountered when it was rolled out to the first region to receive it (Taiwan). So it’s the update process that sucks and the U.S. is just along for the ride.
Hell, you can barely get any accessories for the Note 10.1 in the US
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Or Europe. The car dock for the GN was released nine months after it was shown. Same thing for the wireless charging station for the SGS3. The U.S. actually got the book cover for the Note before Europe. The accessory line is just mismanaged; I don't think the U.S. fares better or worse than the rest of the world. And again, HTC's the same. Kind of makes you wonder why they offer accessories at all if they don't want to sell them.
I think that it is possible we will see a much different user experience here in the states over the next few years when it comes to Samsung Tablets and Phones than the rest of the world.
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You need to separate tablets and phones. Phones are always going to be a cluster here in the U.S because Samsung doesn't sell unlocked phones directly and the carriers here are notorious for their lack of urgency for getting updates out. The U.S. Wi-Fi Note is a Samsung direct device and so far hasn't been treated better or worse than its international relatives when it comes to updates. Samsung customizes the s/w by region for each device they sell. The U.S. is just another region and a big one at that. Certain Android features are blocked in the U.S. by both Samsung and HTC but so far that hasn’t appeared to affect the update schedule one way or the other.

Don't you guys never heard abaut ebay (de or gb). And considering on updates, sammobile page is available on whole earth.

No, its the same everywhere else. I'm in the uk and have received 0 updates.

im in egypt and no update
i wish the give the update to world wide very soon

I don't think I was clear. This is not about the JB update but just Samungs' position in the market right now with Apple hanging over their head based on the over the top billion dollar ruling.
For example, there is an app in Samsung market called DirectOffice Print. It is a great print app but the US owner can't buy the app on the app store because of contract issues Samsung has in the US. It is items like this and features that the US seem to miss that I am speaking of.

rap6388 said:
I don't think I was clear. This is not about the JB update but just Samungs' position in the market right now with Apple hanging over their head based on the over the top billion dollar ruling.
For example, there is an app in Samsung market called DirectOffice Print. It is a great print app but the US owner can't buy the app on the app store because of contract issues Samsung has in the US. It is items like this and features that the US seem to miss that I am speaking of.
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The Samsung App store not being able to manage payments in the U.S. is an infrastructure issue that has nothing to do with Apple. They've said U.S. payments will be in enable in Q1 2013. And the "billion dollar ruling" is a drop in the bucket; they made $7.4B in profit in Q3 of this year alone. By raising Apple's chip prices 20% they probably covered it if they indeed ever have to pay it. The Note V will be out by the time appeals are exhausted. If Samsung's not doing something or not doing it right it's because their Samsung. They get a lot right but they get a lot wrong too.

rap6388 said:
I don't think I was clear. This is not about the JB update but just Samungs' position in the market right now with Apple hanging over their head based on the over the top billion dollar ruling.
For example, there is an app in Samsung market called DirectOffice Print. It is a great print app but the US owner can't buy the app on the app store because of contract issues Samsung has in the US. It is items like this and features that the US seem to miss that I am speaking of.
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Well, as much as I hate to say it, this is how Sammy does business.
It's worse if you're in Canada.
Samsung Canada has a reciprocal agreement with Samsung USA not to sell to each other's market. But Samsung Canada doesn't feel there's much demand in Canada for computer products - just phones... (although it is getting better - we now have netbooks... Yes, that was sarcasm...) so we either get Samsung products late or not at all. And even though we're right on the border - we can cross border shop - we can't buy the products in the US online and have it shipped.
Ironically, Samsung opened their first North American full time store in Metrotown Mall in Burnaby British Columbia Canada (a suburb of Vancouver).but they can't show most of their products because they're not available in Canada and you can't buy them from the US.
And even though Canada uses the same cell and WiFi frequencies as the US, we get 'special' verisons of their products that block us from getting updates at the same time as the US. (That's why there's a GN 8010 AND a GN 8013 that are essentially identical). I had the same problem with my Galaxy Nexus phone - the Canadian version is a yakjuux which is supported (barely) by Samsung rather than the yakju version that's supported by Google directly,.
Like you - most of my hardware is Samsung - simply because they build exactly what I want. No one else does. But it means I have to drive to the US and buy these over the counter and drive them back, or have a friend in the US ship it to me.
I may like Samsung's products - but the company sucks...
Side note: Also, they're lousy at getting accessories in big box stores like Best Buy and Future Shop up here... I was trying to get a Note 10.1 Book case and the Samsung Store was out. They recommended going to BB or FS and I had to point out that neither of them actually carry any Samsung accessories - hell, it's hard enough finding the Note 10.1 in some of them...

I should have learned my lesson when I had my Tab 10.1, took them a year to update it to ICS. By the time they did that, I had been using unofficial ROM for about 4 months (give or take). Not acceptable. This is definitely my last Samsung tablet, even though I love it dearly. Samsung don't deserve one single dime for their awful commitment to customer's satisfaction.

Gotta get Nexus
if you want the latest ROMS

mrdaco said:
Don't you guys never heard abaut ebay (de or gb). And considering on updates, sammobile page is available on whole earth.
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That's not a solution. If I wanted to buy from unreliable and potentially shady resellers - I'd buy at Best Buy.
At least they have a return policy...
The point is that if you're going to make products, you should support them well. Or at all. Samsung is the leader in sales for smartphones and are rapidly growing in market share for tablets... yet they still can't get Best Buy to carry cases for their phones or tablets. All you get is the usual wall after wall of iDevice crap.
Best Buy isn't a charity - they carry what they think will sell - or what the manufacturer will pay them to carry (yes, surprise - manufacturers pay for special displays and 'endcaps' as well as for preferred positioning - higher on a shelf for example). Samsung has to spend a bit more to get the visibility Apple gets. They have to realise that customer support is more than just having a lousy website that's more about selling more product than about supporting the customers they already have...
But 'return customer' and 'customer loyalty' seems very low on Asian hardware maker's minds, it would seem.

TheWerewolf said:
But 'return customer' and 'customer loyalty' seems very low on Asian hardware maker's minds, it would seem.
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The h/w business is almost entirely Asian with the exception of Apple, Nokia, and Motorola. We've discussed update priorities, accessory availability, and general attention to existing customer's needs. Only Motorola sells Android devices so it's them vs. the Asians if you want to draw a comparison. I've owned devices from Motorola and most of the Asian manufacturers. Here's my conclusion: they all suck in the three categories we're discussing. Let's add a fourth category; product quality. Here's my quick assessment:
Samsung - Means well but gets caught up in their enormity. Their priority is clearly future sales but they generally tend to treat the existing customer base well. There are exceptions and the OG G-Tab update to ICS is a good one. By offering dozens of different s/w types on a single device they make their own life more difficult. Rolling out updates across regions is a cluster because of it. They have terrific warranty service and will pay roundtrip shipping for repairs and replace a device with a new one if parts aren't available. They suck at the number of accessories offered and making them available in a timely manner. Their products are generally well put together using premium components.
HTC - Has really been trying to get updates out more quickly and with better quality. The One X has been updated to three new Android versions and has gotten three new versions of Sense since March. In spite of that it still takes too long to get updates out and they've had some pretty bad s/w that's been deployed without being thoroughly tested. Their warranty service is hit or miss depending on region. The U.S. isn't too bad and they do seem to try to get things right. They have a really nice variety of accessories; good luck trying to find them in stock anywhere. Their products are made from premium components but they've had a lot of QC issues with their latest devices. Good examples are extremely well made. They don't provide warranty support for devices that have had their bootloaders unlocked.
LG - Their support in the U.S. is atrocious and the rest of the world is a mixed bag. An alarming number of their products over the past two years have had design and h/w issues. Examples are overheating, spontaneous rebooting, boot loops, and sporadic wireless performance. Both the new Optimus G and N4 have thermal throttling issues so it doesn't seem like much has changed. The HTC Droid DNA has the same chip set and isn't experiencing similar issues. They are absolutely atrocious at updates. They offer few accessories and what's offered is impossible to find. Their devices are built well but it doesn't matter if they have fatal design flaws. The customer has to pay to ship a device to LG for repair.
Asus - They put more effort in to serving their existing customers than any other Android manufacturer. They are quick to update their devices, have representatives commenting on XDA, and try to address issues they're made aware of. Their warranty service is atrocious with frequent claims of "customer induced damage" for known issues. It can take weeks to get a device repaired and it's difficult to get an accurate status. Customers pay shipping to get the device to Asus. Their products are made from inferior and in some cases outdated components. They also have an abnormally high number of QC issues. The latter two elements along with crappy repair service sort of negate their customer service efforts. They offer a few basic accessories that seem to be generally more available compared to other manufacturers. When they introduce a new device its a cluster trying to find it and, because they're offered in multiple colors, finding the matching keyboard. They don't provide warranty support for devices that have had their bootloaders unlocked.
Sony - There are tied with LG for being worst at keeping their devices updated. I'm not familiar with their mobile device service but I've used them for PC service and they've been very responsive. Their products are generally well made but always seem to be a cycle behind everyone else design, feature and s/w wise. They tend to do well with offering accessories and making them readily available but they are very expensive.
Motorola - Their support of existing customers is tragic compared to the Asians. Even after Google acquired them they announced that late-2011 high-end devices that they promised upgrades to ICS for wouldn't be receiving them. They offered affected customers $100 off a future Motorola phone instead. They are also worse than the Asians at updates they do roll out. Their warranty and repair service is generally good. Their products are well made but MotoBlur is considered the worst of the overlays. It has been toned down on newer phones but is still far less complete than Sense or TW. They offer quite a few accessories but they are quite expensive. They are fairly easy to find. But in comparing Motorola to the Asians their complete lack of regard for existing customers makes them the worst of a bad lot. They don't provide warranty support for devices that have had their bootloaders unlocked.​
So, at the end of the day, there aren't really any stand-out winners. Toshiba, Acer, and Lenovo are bit players based on the low volume of devices they sell so I haven't included them. From general observation they aren't typically known to be any better or worse than the companies I've described. So balancing all four criteria Samsung and HTC, IMHO, are the best of a bad lot (at least in the Android world). Since Samsung seems to be taking over the Android world any way we might not have to worry about comparisons for very much longer.
Thoughts? Personal experiences?

BarryH_GEG said:
The h/w business is almost entirely Asian with the exception of Apple, Nokia, and Motorola. We've discussed update priorities, accessory availability, and general attention to existing customer's needs. Only Motorola sells Android devices so it's them vs. the Asians if you want to draw a comparison. I've owned devices from Motorola and most of the Asian manufacturers. Here's my conclusion: they all suck in the three categories we're discussing. Let's add a fourth category; product quality. Here's my quick assessment:
...
So, at the end of the day, there aren't really any stand-out winners. Toshiba, Acer, and Lenovo are bit players based on the low volume of devices they sell so I haven't included them. From general observation they aren't typically known to be any better or worse than the companies I've described. So balancing all four criteria Samsung and HTC, IMHO, are the best of a bad lot (at least in the Android world). Since Samsung seems to be taking over the Android world any way we might not have to worry about comparisons for very much longer.
Thoughts? Personal experiences?
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Sounds like Samsung should hire Asus to support their products and Asus should get Samsung build their products.

Vincent9756 said:
Sounds like Samsung should hire Asus to support their products and Asus should get Samsung build their products.
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Here's the difference between Asus and Samsung/HTC when it comes to updates. Asus is the hands-down winner for getting updates out the door the fastest. But in doing so, it takes at least three subsequent updates to make the initial update complete. Samsung and HTC are painfully slow but (usually) the updates they get out are pretty solid. By that time, because Asus had to update the update multiple times, they arrive at the same place at the same time. Kind of a "tortoise vs. the hare" thing.

BarryH_GEG said:
The h/w business is almost entirely Asian with the exception of Apple, Nokia, and Motorola. We've discussed update priorities, accessory availability, and general attention to existing customer's needs. Only Motorola sells Android devices so it's them vs. the Asians if you want to draw a comparison. I've owned devices from Motorola and most of the Asian manufacturers. Here's my conclusion: they all suck in the three categories we're discussing. Let's add a fourth category; product quality. Here's my quick assessment:
...
So, at the end of the day, there aren't really any stand-out winners. Toshiba, Acer, and Lenovo are bit players based on the low volume of devices they sell so I haven't included them. From general observation they aren't typically known to be any better or worse than the companies I've described. So balancing all four criteria Samsung and HTC, IMHO, are the best of a bad lot (at least in the Android world). Since Samsung seems to be taking over the Android world any way we might not have to worry about comparisons for very much longer.
Thoughts? Personal experiences?
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Click to collapse
I agree. I wasn't actually making a 'Western vs Asian' comparison - although rereading what I wrote, it does come across that way. Unfortunately, Apple is kind of the bar for support, quality and attention to detail, even with their recent decline in all three areas.
But my experiences with HP, for example - with their Slate 500 was odd - they had delivery problems, but they really went the extra mile to make up for it. In fact, in my own case, they ended up giving me almost a 30% discount for being late. I didn't even ask for it. They did screw up by choosing n-Trig for the digitiser - but at the time, it seemed a logical choice.
I only have one major experience with Dell - I bought an Axion Windows Mobile PDA that failed. They sent me a box in which to return it at no cost... and a new unit along with the box - also at no cost.
Of course, I have a Transformer Prime - and it's such a mixed bag of hurt and happy. As you note - the device feels right - and they got a lot right about it. It has the best USB driver support of any tablet out there. It provides enough USB power to run a hard drive. The dock is brilliant. And then they mess up something as basic as the GPS, WiFi and Bluetooth. And I think most of us could have dealt with that - if Asus hadn't utterly botched their response to the problem by essentially admitting the problem, then failing to fix it, then claiming the GPS wasn't meant for serious use (commerical GPS? What?) then trying to erase history by removing the feature from the box, then sending everyone a free GPS dongle that was just horribly thought out... and didn't fix the WiFi or BT issues. To add insult to injury - they announce a replacement pair of Transformers with the problem fixed... just two weeks after finally shipping the Prime - which was late. But the Infinity was supposed to be $100 more (which kind of took some of the pain away) - only to finally ship at the exact same price as the Prime.
Oh.. and then just after getting the dongle, the Prime's back camera died and that took a month to get repaired...
That's a lot of bad PR and bad customer support in one ball of hurt.
I bought an HTC Surround - the design made it impossible to remove the back without holding the screen which is on a slider. I sent it back after just two months of ownership because after upgrading to WP7.5 the screen started to act oddly.They claimed that the strain on the screen damaged it and refused to repair or replace it under warranty - demanding $250.
Which brings us back to Apple for a moment - I bought an iPhone 3G and two weeks afters the warranty expired, the 3G radio fried. When I took it back, they refused service - but offered refurb replacement.. also for $250. I asked if I could pay extra and upgrade to the 3Gs, but they refused claiming that their agreement with the cellco prohibited that. You'll pardon me when I get annoyed at people who go on about how great Apple's customer support is and how 'they'll replace or repair broken devices, even if they're a little over warranty...' Riiiight.
So, yes, as much as I hate to say it - at the moment, Samsung is the least evil current choice....
But it's definitely not what I would call a great choice...

TheWerewolf said:
Apple is kind of the bar for support, quality and attention to detail, even with their recent decline in all three areas.
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I totally agree. Part of it is because Apple's a marketing culture. They have always believed that pulling customers in with an excellent experience (h/w, s/w, content, support) and not relegating the control of the experience to others would lead them to loyalty, advocacy, scale, and profit. Looking at their market cap you can't argue with their approach. But their stock's dropped 20% since September while Samsung's been selling record numbers of devices and reeling in record profits. Samsung is no Apple and I don't think they'd ever be able to adapt that culture. But Apple's begun to bore people by sticking to their formula while everyone else is offering bolder more individualized experiences. The aging of Apple's demographic and adoption of Android by younger market segments doesn't bode well for Apple's future. At some point they are going to have to do something interesting and it isn't making the iPhone's display taller. Remember their famous "1984" commercial and the "think different" campaign? They've become what they used to parody.

I'm from Australia and thought much the same particularly with accessory availability. Then I moved to kenya of all places. Here Samsung is the undisputed champion. Nobody has an Iphone. Everyone has Samsung. Accessories are everywhere. All the major Supermarkets have a phone shop inside them and nearly all carry accessories en masse.
It makes an enormous difference to the functionality and usefulness of the product when you can do things like plug a flash drive into it or plug it into your TV. There are also many dedicated Samsung shops around the place. Although for some reason they seem to get the products later than the other retailers.
Samsung can definitely get it right in certain regions. I'm not sure why it struggles in others
Sent from my GT-N8000 using xda app-developers app

Simple, its what the public wants... Or thinks it wants...
Samsung have started to push out adverts here in Oz, especially S3 and SGNote 10.1, now when you rarely ever used to see their phones advertised. Apple was everywhere...
The shops are simply responding to what the customers want... Everyone was buying apple products, so naturally you stock Apple accessories with a few other brand accessories too. But if the lions share of customers want Apple products, why would you stock with only a few Apple accessories and have a whole heap of stuff you can't sell because the perceived market isn't there? That would be, from a sellers point of view, madness...
Until public opinion and buying habits shift noticeably then we are stuck with shops full of Crapple merchandise. When Android becomes a major seller, this is where standardisation is good, then we'll see the stock move to that area instead as profit drops for Apple stock... Unfortunately there's still a perception among retailers that Apple is an easy sell... That and the fact that there are a million different types of android tablet and phones out in the world, and there's only so many things they are prepared to stock while generally all Apple stuff fit or was useable by all apple customers... Until Iphone 5 that is...

The issue as I have always understood it has many sides. First Apple builds their OS for their devices, no one else gets it no other hardware can run it so they only have to optimize and remove features based on the generation of the device (3GS, 4, 4S, etc) and what will and won't work.
Now for Android OEM's they have a couple of challenges. First Google makes the OS and unless you are chosen for a Nexus launch you won't get the new OS in its finished state until after that (don't recall when JB 4.1.1 came out) so they have to wait.
Then the OEM's have to decide which devices can and cannot run the software based on the crippled (carrier specified hardware in the USA) so devices that are less than a year old get screwed over (HTC 2012 and 2011). Then they have to make sure their drivers work since not ever one of their phones (and tablets) uses the same processor or family of processors so we have Texas Instruments, Qualcomm, Samsung, Intel, etc. Then the priority is always given to the latest hardware going out the door since you want your newest hardware to (hopefully) be running the most current OS you had in the pipeline, or in our case JB 4.1.1. Then they start to update for devices they can support.
Now what I see as a huge issue and is the heart of fragmentation is Google's failure to set standards and timelines from both the OEM's and Carriers (USA are the offenders here) to deliver the OS updates. Google should be collaborating with the OEM's to enforce software rollouts. They could also put forth some type of awareness campaign to insure users are in the know and can have an expectation from their carrier and OEM that they will get that update. Oh wait that was the Android Alliance crap announced last year that did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
For me I would be fine with my GN 10.1 and soon GN 2 running some iteration of JellyBean hopefully 4.2 so it has the enhanced security features etc.

BarryH_GEG said:
I totally agree. Part of it is because Apple's a marketing culture. They have always believed that pulling customers in with an excellent experience (h/w, s/w, content, support) and not relegating the control of the experience to others would lead them to loyalty, advocacy, scale, and profit. Looking at their market cap you can't argue with their approach. But their stock's dropped 20% since September while Samsung's been selling record numbers of devices and reeling in record profits. Samsung is no Apple and I don't think they'd ever be able to adapt that culture. But Apple's begun to bore people by sticking to their formula while everyone else is offering bolder more individualized experiences. The aging of Apple's demographic and adoption of Android by younger market segments doesn't bode well for Apple's future. At some point they are going to have to do something interesting and it isn't making the iPhone's display taller. Remember their famous "1984" commercial and the "think different" campaign? They've become what they used to parody.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just gotta say: iCustomers are snobby, horribly wretched, self-absorbed "high designer" wanna-be's. Apple's hw is far from impeccable, the sw is strangling. They're good at glamour (making something appear far better than it actually is). Samsung is unfortunately trying to cut into that crowd, and I think they'd do better to provide a strong counter position: a tablet that lasts for years instead of 6 months. A phone that makes it to the next upgrade cycle (like the gNex).
Early 20th century design principles (built to last decades-- ie heirloom quality) should be a global standard....yes I know I'm pipe dreaming here....
Apple IMO has made it difficult for Samsung to really get behind its own products in the US, but it's jot just apple, mobile device carriers have lobbied our government, fcc, and individual manufacturers to NOT release things like the p6800 or the n8000 because carriers want you to buy a phone AND a tablet with a data plan, not just a tabletnwith telephony hardware... so f***ing sick of our markets being manipulated by the big players, people don't even know that there ARE tablets available with telephony hw... blah...
Sent from my GT-N8013 using XDA Premium HD app

HTC financial woes

i hope the One really helps HTC, but the delays are doing no favours
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/04/08/us-htc-earnings-idUKBRE93706620130408

I don't know what the fuss is all about. They are always posting profits. Less profits yes, but they are always in the black. Many companies go for years posting losses quarter after quarter. HTC has no problems as long as they are in profit each quarter.

Would now be a great time to buy stocks in HTC?

simba2585 said:
i hope the One really helps HTC, but the delays are doing no favours
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/04/08/us-htc-earnings-idUKBRE93706620130408
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I hope this thread gets locked, threads likes this really do XDA no favours.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

aydc said:
I don't know what the fuss is all about. They are always posting profits. Less profits yes, but they are always in the black. Many companies go for years posting losses quarter after quarter. HTC has no problems as long as they are in profit each quarter.
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Public companies like HTC serve their shareholders who buy stock in a company because they feel that stock is going to appreciate over time increasing the size of their investment (profit). Companies reward investors by growing sales, profit margins, and generating cash that's used for reinvestment to further their growth and increasing the market capitalization of the company. Doing so makes their stock appreciate which rewards the investors that placed their faith in them. This is HTC’s 2-year stock performance as of today.
In February, HTC revised their Q1 2013 guidance down to a level so low that it spooked analysts to the point there was a run on HTC's stock that triggered stop-sales on the TW exchange it's listed on (twice) because the amount of volume being sold and the stock's price decline triggered electronic safeguards. The revenue guidance HTC provided for Q1 that caused the stock fall was between NT$50 billion and NT$60 billion. Those are numbers provided by HTC less than eight weeks ago. The number they actually posted today was NT$42.8 billion. So not only did they miss the low-end of their own guidance they've demonstrated an inability to forecast their business. The latter's actually more troubling to analysts than the miss in revenue. And keep in mind that revenue is accounted for when devices are shipped to resellers; not when they are purchased by end consumers. So HTC's shipping rate is what caused the miss, not the sales or popularity of the One. And that they didn't know within an eight week span how deep their component issues were causing them to issue erroneous guidance is indeed troubling.
Operating margin (profit) was 1/10 of 1% of revenue for the first three months of 2013. You don't have to be a finance expert to know that's not sustainable. And the One's delay has put it right up against the launch of the SGS4 which will be accompanied by wider distribution and Samsung's gazillion dollar marketing budget. Apple's also launching the iP5S and possibly a lower-priced device in June according to analyst's speculation. Neither of those things is going to be good for HTC's full-year revenue. The analysts expect HTC to benefit from the One's sales in Q2 but that they'll decline again in the remaining quarters of the year. 30 out of 33 analysts have a "sell" rating on HTC's stock.
Their financial position was 25% better than today last August when the Taiwanese government began talks of bailing HTC out rather than letting them fail. HTC cannot continue to exist the way it does today and a single positive quarter based on the success of single device can't reverse their fortunes enough to change that. So it's highly unlikely they'll go out of business but some type of government intervention accompanied by a restructuring or merger or JV with another company are pretty much a given.
With stiff competition from Apple and Samsung, HTC has posted some less than stellar numbers the past few quarters. The company is still profitable, but its decline in sales and revenue have contributed significantly to Taiwan’s five months of decline in exports which saw a drop in July of 11.6% from a year earlier. HTC may be about to receive help from the Taiwanese government as it looks to turn its fortunes around after slipping away in the smartphone market recently. According to the Commercial Times, Taiwan's Central Bank Governor, Perng Fai-nan raised the issue during a meeting with government officials, suggesting it stepped in and offered assistance to the manufacturer. Perng noted that HTC's declining sales had had a knock-on effect with Taiwan's exports, which have also witnessed a decline in recent months. During the meeting, Perng apparently went on to say that the financial status of HTC is "of vital importance to the islands' gross domestic product". The Taiwanese government is taking this issue seriously, with an unnamed official reportedly saying the Ministry of Economic Affairs is already considering various ways to help out HTC.
http://www.techradar.com/us/news/ph...htc-could-receive-government-bail-out-1091781​These numbers show the production shortage really is that bad, and my sense is that it won’t get much better in the second quarter because many of those issues continue,” said Dennis Chan, an analyst at Yuanta Securities Co. in Taipei, who recommends selling the stock. “For smartphones, timing is everything and the delay means they lose that timing.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...w-profit-after-latest-smartphone-delayed.html​Profit is likely to recover in the second quarter as HTC One sales increase, said Daiwa Securities analyst Birdy Lu. The company has been touting the camera's performance in low light, and plans to more than double advertising spending under a new marketing chief. "HTC's whole schedule was thrown into disarray because of the HTC One, which meant it didn't have the revenue coming in but still had a lot of fixed costs," Mr. Lu said. "There will be some improvement this quarter in terms of the bottom line, but they still face a lot of competition."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...38196.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection​

htc is dying.
i bet samsung and apple are eager to buy htc for their patents and maybe blueprints

I'm sitting here fully perplexed
some of you call me HTC biggest fanboy
and yet in all honestly i dont care their financial woes
yes if they go away it will be a loss to the smartphone especially since they are the most unique OEM
but really why should I care all I want is the bloody device and 18months of support, the quality of the device and the software is guaranteed so why should I care about their money again?
honestly if anything Samsung's monopoly and money making is not really reflecting in better quality to the product
I prefer a zealous challenged OEM over a relaxed arrogant one

hamdir said:
some of you call me HTC biggest fanboy
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But always in a "good" way. You've helped more people than 90% of those on XDA (including me).
honestly if anything Samsung's monopoly and money making is not really reflecting in better quality to the product
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Being huge doesn't guarantee continued success; at least not at the same historic velocity. Look what Samsung's success has done to Apple's stock. And with more cash in the bank than 2/3 of the world's countries one can't say Apple's not successful. Samsung can't get lazy because if they do there are too many people gunning for them. If Apple does introduce a lower-cost iPhone it's going to kick Samsung in the nuts. And both ZTE and Huawei are gunning for them too. Samsung's only got one target in its sites; Apple. What the other Android device makers do with a collective 30% market share between them doesn't concern them.
If you think about it, there are too many Android manufacturers right now. None on their own is going to catch Samsung because their lead is too wide. If a couple fail or merge leaving Samsung and two strong financially healthy Android competitors it would be much better for competition than having four vendors with fewer than 10% of the market each. The market controls smartphone selling prices. Samsung’s volume makes their component costs significantly lower than their competitors. None of those competitors can continue to offer the same features as Samsung at the same prices and maintain a decent level of profitability on far lower volume. So a “boutique” smartphone maker would end up selling a device with similar functionality at a higher retail price to sustain their profitability. I don’t think that would work that well in such a competitive market. As applies in the jungle, only the strong survive.

cjm1979 said:
I hope this thread gets locked, threads likes this really do XDA no favours.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
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What's wrong with discussion ?
How is xda affected ?

BarryH_GEG said:
So a “boutique” smartphone maker would end up selling a device with similar functionality at a higher retail price to sustain their profitability. I don’t think that would work that well in such a competitive market. As applies in the jungle, only the strong survive.
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Click to collapse
i would love HTC to go this way. willing to pay the premium
i think Sony and HTC are a good match but i dont know how that would work
anyway everyone is downsizing HTC than they really are, regardless of the profits/stock situation, its not really as "wallstreet" black or white as you guys think, its a lot more grey, the same can be said to many of the Asian brands as well
there is definitely a remedy being cooked for their problem but its not really what we are expecting

Great learning on this thread ,its great

@Barry,(didn't wanna quote the whole thesis), you're right, the HTC One success alone cannot bail HTC out of its financial trouble, especially with the iPhone and Galaxy S 4 coming out in Q3 and Q2 respectively. Either they're going to have to be bailed out or merge with another company. 2.8 million in profit is an All time low for HTC. The smartphone industry is a tough one, if you even have 1 off year, it will cost you big time. HTC had 2 off years.

I'm pretty optimistic about HTC with all the positive press on the One. I myself have owned every generation iphone and it took the HTC One to break the cycle. I have another friend who has always owned iphones and he just purchased four HTC Ones for his family and friends. This thing is going to be a dark horse. Samsung won't know what hit them.

grukko said:
I'm pretty optimistic about HTC with all the positive press on the One. I myself have owned every generation iphone and it took the HTC One to break the cycle. I have another friend who has always owned iphones and he just purchased four HTC Ones for his family and friends. This thing is going to be a dark horse. Samsung won't know what hit them.
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I'm in the same boat. Just want my Asda order now !!!

BarryH_GEG said:
Public companies like HTC serve their shareholders who buy stock in a company because they feel that stock is going to appreciate over time increasing the size of their investment (profit). Companies reward investors by growing sales, profit margins, and generating cash that's used for reinvestment to further their growth and increasing the market capitalization of the company. Doing so makes their stock appreciate which rewards the investors that placed their faith in them. This is HTC’s 2-year stock performance as of today.
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Click to collapse
Then what would you say about Apple who have lost about $300 Billion worth of shareholder money in this time?
Or the fact that Galaxy S4 is being seen as Samsung's iphone5 moment! Apple played safe with iphone5 and historically it has broken sales records. Apple is flush with money, yet financial markets are unimpressed. Apple is no more innovative!
Samsung has done nothing with S4 but ape Apple iphone5 (that is to say play it safe). Interestingly the day S4 was announced by Samsung, Apple stock rose and investors cheered as S4 is NOT seen as much of a big threat to Apple as it could have been!
HTC is not gonna vanish anytime soon. just chillax. my company has been in huge losses for four years straight (we suppy chipsets to mobile makers) and yet are there (while we are much much smaller than even HTC). somebody always bails you out. Or otherwise also, all it takes is one blockbuster product and you are back in the game. Sony got that with XZ (they were in losses earlier). Very few companies are making any money in this business anyway but they are all hanging in there.

I don't know. I'm reconsidering what to buy after this.

joslicx said:
Then what would you say about Apple who have lost about $300 Billion worth of shareholder money in this time?
Or the fact that Galaxy S4 is being seen as Samsung's iphone5 moment! Apple played safe with iphone5 and historically it has broken sales records. Apple is flush with money, yet financial markets are unimpressed. Apple is no more innovative!
Samsung has done nothing with S4 but ape Apple iphone5 (that is to say play it safe). Interestingly the day S4 was announced by Samsung, Apple stock rose and investors cheered as S4 is NOT seen as much of a big threat to Apple as it could have been!
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The difference is that apple and Samsung have big budgets and lots of money, they can afford some type of loss, HTC cannot. You said it yourself, apple played it safe with the iPhone 5 and yet they broke records sales. Do you think apple care about the lack of innovation? No, not as long as they keep selling they don't. For Samsung, the S4 is getting more preorders than the S3 in the UK alone, those are good signs and remember again both companies have lots of money and are coming from big quarters.
It isn't about them though, it's about HTC. They have a great product with the One, everybody in the tech world recognizes it so there is no doubt. The question is is it too late?

At the end of the day it will be Samsung and apple left. Rest will fold and fail. Of course Google will continue to release nexus line which is stock but always mediocre hardware.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using xda premium

sabre31 said:
At the end of the day it will be Samsung and apple left. Rest will fold and fail. Of course Google will continue to release nexus line which is stock but always mediocre hardware.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using xda premium
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Lets pray that it doesn't happen, it would really make me sick. I love choices and competition.

HTC and Sony should stay alive. Sony will be for sure because they're a strong company. Can't say the same about htc. It'd be a shame if they fail.

HTC in trouble

http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/7/30/4570490/htc-q3-2013-guidance-first-loss-on-record
Sent from my HTC One using XDA Premium HD app

such threads are not needed, we have been seeing them for years now
besides the verge always adds drama on top here is the proper press release
http://www.htc.com/www/about/newsroom/2013/2013-07-30-htc-reports-2013-second-quarter-results/
Taipei, Taiwan – July 30, 2013 – HTC Corporation (the Company, TWSE: 2498), a global leader in mobile innovation and design, today announced consolidated results for the Company and its subsidiaries for the second quarter of 2013.
2Q 2013 Results
HTC posted quarterly revenue of NT$70.7 billion, with gross margin of 23.2 % and operating margin of 1.5%. Net profit and EPS were NT$1.25 billion and NT$1.50, respectively.
“My leadership team continues to focus on execution,” said Peter Chou, CEO of HTC. “We are seeing expected results as we fill the channels and meet demand for the new HTC One. As we broaden our focus to include a new member of the HTC One family, the recently announced One mini, we are looking forward to delivering great products and results in 2H.”
HTC announced key appointments, including Jack Yang to president of South Asia, Sirpa Ikola to senior director of marketing for South Asia, and Lorain Wong to vice president of global PR.
As manufacturing ramped up, the US saw sequential growth in 2Q, as well as expansion in retail channels. EMEA saw renewed strength in major Western European markets and emerging countries.
Progress was observed across Asia. HTC gained market share in Taiwan, showing an improved presence in Hong Kong and warm reception of its products by consumers in Japan. In China, sales of HTC’s high-end models improved, while competition at the mid-tier and affordable intensified. In South Asia, the improvement of key operator relationships provides optimism about the region.
3Q 2013 Outlook
The Company’s outlook for the second quarter of 2013 is as follows:
- 3Q revenue is expected to be in the range of NT$50bn to NT$60bn
- Gross profit margin is expected to be in the range of 18% to 21%
- Operating margin is expected to be in the range of 0% to -8%
The new HTC One has performed well in the market, better than that of our hero products for the same period last year. We aim to extend the momentum as we enter into the second half of 2013. The new HTC One has also helped the company establish strong brand awareness and received numerous accolades as the world’s best smart phone. With the help of HTC One, we have regained superphone market share across major markets including China.
We also have plans underway to launch a range of innovative and competitive mid-tier products in the coming months. We hope to regain momentum and market share in these segments in Q4. This will address our challenge of mid-tier products competiveness
Our overall gross margin has been impacted by the relatively higher cost structure, lack of economy of scale and certain provisions needed to facilitate the clearance of aging products in the channel. Actions have been taken and we expect to see improvement in Q4
We are also optimizing our organization, including the improvement of management efficiency and effectiveness.
People, innovations, and technology are the core assets of HTC. We will continue to invest in innovations and technology, as well as retaining and rewarding our best talents. We look forward to a brighter future for HTC and continue to delight our customers with the best and most exciting products
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you can see clearly that they state, the One is getting them more revenue then last year flagships, but they fall short on the low end side of sales, also they have extra expenses for this quarter causing the predicted loss waste of profit
- 3Q revenue is expected to be in the range of NT$50bn to NT$60bn
- Gross profit margin is expected to be in the range of 18% to 21%
- Operating margin is expected to be in the range of 0% to -8%
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

That's a pretty optimistic viewpoint you posted @hamdir. Almost makes it seem like HTC has turned the corner and poised for a rebound (which we all know is far from the truth). Here's Reuters not so optimistic perspective.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/30/us-htc-guidance-idUSBRE96T0B920130730

jlevy73 said:
That's a pretty optimistic viewpoint you posted @hamdir. Almost makes it seem like HTC has turned the corner and poised for a rebound (which we all know is far from the truth). Here's Reuters not so optimistic perspective.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/30/us-htc-guidance-idUSBRE96T0B920130730
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what view? i posted HTC's own press release, they explain pretty clearly that their old inventory and lack of mid / low range competition will cause the predict lack of gross margins, tons of positive in the press release as well such as the HTC One performance and their improvements in Asian markets
meanwhile HTC is hard at work for the next flagship while you guys are busy with their profit or losses
does anyone still follows how much Nokia or Sony are loosing? or when they rebound?
Financial up and downs is normal for any company in my opinion and as far as im concerned it's non of my business, i have an amazing smartphone thanks to them and i don't need to contemplate their finance
here is something interesting from your own link
"Even a hero product can't save them," he said, adding that a partnership with another firm - a possibility CEO Peter Chou has said he would look at - was one of the few strong options open to HTC.
Although HTC is expected to soon launch the HTC One Mini, Samsung and Apple are also likely to announce their own new offerings later this year. A planned marketing blitz, which includes enlisting Robert Downey Jr. for a reported $12 million to star in its ad campaigns, is expected to weigh on profit margins.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:45 PM ----------
more details here
http://focustaiwan.tw/search/201307300029.aspx?q=htc
HTC said its overall gross margin has been impacted by the relatively higher cost structure, lack of economy of scale and certain provisions needed to facilitate the clearance of aging products in the channel.
Peter Chou, chief executive officer of HTC, said the company is taking action to reduce the cost of some key components used in its products, such as displays and mechanical parts, and that the improvements will be apparent in the fourth quarter.
In addition, HTC plans to launch a new range of mid-tier phones in the late third quarter or early fourth quarter to increase its economy of scale and leverage its product portfolio, Chou said.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"We are bearish on the company in the longer term as it continues to struggle in the premium smartphone segment despite having a good product, while it remains uncompetitive in the low-end segment," Cheng said, who set a price target of NT$145 on the stock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Sony and HTC merge and we're gonna have a good time.

I Am Marino said:
Sony and HTC merge and we're gonna have a good time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My dream

It's alot of over analyzing but it sure makes me worry. They can't even seem to pump put timely updates at this point... Even to their developer and GE editions. Can't blame the carriers holding up the updates on those...
Sent from my HTC One using xda premium

hamdir said:
Meanwhile HTC is hard at work for the next flagship while you guys are busy wit their profit or losses
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's nothing in anything that's been posted that's even remotely uplifting regarding HTC's future.
The One's without question the best phone HTC's ever made yet revenue, profit, and market share are down.
Their guidance for Q3 is projected to be down 30% YOY and Q3 includes their projected revenue for the Mini, Max, and any other devices launching during the quarter.
HTC's cost base is f'd because of their loss of scale. They weren't a "tier one" supplier even with the One's idealistic sales goals which means they pay more than their competitors for the same components and aren't given preference when parts are in scarce supply.
Samsung's monolithic and LG/Sony have deep pocketed parent companies with diverse product lines. Motorola's owned by Google. HTC's too small to compete with those companies as well as the Chinese with their low cost base and priority in the Chinese market.
For the eighth quarter in a row we've discussed HTC's "come back" and for the eighth quarter they've posted continually crappy results with their forward guidance showing no relief. The HTC brand may continue through an acquisition but the company itself is pretty much dead. And that's not my opinion, it's the analyst's which, after these results, all have "sell" ratings on the stock.

hamdir said:
such threads are not needed, we have been seeing them for years now
besides the verge always adds drama on top here is the proper press release
http://www.htc.com/www/about/newsroom/2013/2013-07-30-htc-reports-2013-second-quarter-results/
you can see clearly that they state, the One is getting them more revenue then last year flagships, but they fall short on the low end side of sales, also they have extra expenses for this quarter causing the predicted loss waste of profit
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Than.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using xda premium

HTC is definitely in trouble. The One is an insanely great device and yet they just had their worst quarter. That sounds pretty bad. And again, with the 5s, budget iphone, note 3 and others I don't know how htc can turn this around.
Like Barry said htc is too small of a company at the end of the day. Sony, apple, LG, Samsung are huge companies that have more resources and you need deep pockets to compete. A merge with another company is almost certain at this point.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

Not to be redundant, but this one from Engadget has a positive tone to it.
HTC: the One is selling better than last year's hero products, but next quarter may see a loss

the previous Q2 profit results were good (reported last month)
and these are Q3 projections, considering the stated reasons
i never discussed a come back, all i said companies for a long time can survive with such up and down, we have tons of examples
come to think of it, Asus and HTC merge makes perfect Sense
Same country, Asus sucks in branding and worldwide distribution of it's products, their smartphone side isn't doing so great but they rock in pc and tablets, while HTC is specializes in smartphones exclusively

Asus only sucks in availability of their mobile stuff though. All their PC parts are available every part of the world. If they applied the same resources with the same enthusiasm + a HTC merger, it would be awesomely awesome beyond awesomeness.

hamdir said:
the previous Q2 profit results were good (reported last month)
and these are Q3 projections, considering the stated reasons
i never discussed a come back, all i said companies for a long time can survive with such up and down, we have tons of examples
come to think of it, Asus and HTC merge makes perfect Sense
Same country, Asus sucks in branding and worldwide distribution of it's products, their smartphone side isn't doing so great but they rock in pc and tablets, while HTC is specializes in smartphones exclusively
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Q2 was awful compared to last year's Q2 which is the most relevant comparison. Q-2-Q comparisons don't take in to account seasonality and other trends. And aging inventory is corporate speak for we overestimated demand and/or the competition is eating our lunch. Microsoft writing down $1B because of the Surface's lackluster sales is a good example. What's going to change for HTC? The One's not helping much and the Max and Mini launch is factored in to their Q3 quidance which projects a loss. Their previous focus on the high-end has made them a late comer in emerging markets. Even there their lack of scale makes an identically spec'd HTC phone more expensive to build than their competitors phones. So the high-end (the One) didn't save them and with limited distribution, higher component prices, and no brand loyalty in the price-focused lower tiers it's hard to envision them making much headway there. All the drivel about a bright future is coming from Peter Chou who's decisions and direction got HTC in to the mess they are currently in. His words kind of remind me of "I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for two hamburgers today." And the impact of their financial condition is already being felt by their customers; ask a One S owner.

HTC would survive just like BlackBerry. Would take a very long time to get back on track. I hope mini and ultra boost up their prifits
Sent from my HTC One using XDA Premium HD app

Will be rooting for this underdog!
Sent from my HTC One using xda premium

BarryH_GEG said:
Q2 was awful compared to last year's Q2 which is the most relevant comparison. Q-2-Q comparisons don't take in to account seasonality and other trends. And aging inventory is corporate speak for we overestimated demand and/or the competition is eating our lunch. Microsoft writing down $1B because of the Surface's lackluster sales is a good example. What's going to change for HTC? The One's not helping much and the Max and Mini launch is factored in to their Q3 quidance which projects a loss. Their previous focus on the high-end has made them a late comer in emerging markets. Even there their lack of scale makes an identically spec'd HTC phone more expensive to build than their competitors phones. So the high-end (the One) didn't save them and with limited distribution, higher component prices, and no brand loyalty in the price-focused lower tiers it's hard to envision them making much headway there. All the drivel about a bright future is coming from Peter Chou who's decisions and direction got HTC in to the mess they are currently in. His words kind of remind me of "I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for two hamburgers today." And the impact of their financial condition is already being felt by their customers; ask a One S owner.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
mateeeeeee the One S is well documented already, the reason for the update drop is that Qualcomm stopped supporting snapdragon 3 and hence didn't provide the drivers for 4.2.2
the One S s4 will most likely receive it, as football said the work restarted on the OTA
also this story was confirmed by shen
I'm done here, it was my mistake to enter the financial discussions again
peace

Blackberry would be the one to fall before HTC. HTC, will come back around..
Sammy and Apple love the attention. Ads Ads Ads Ads. It sinks into peoples heads, that these phones are the latest a and greatest that other phones are garbage to them. All in marketing control.. That's why you see more 15 yr old girls with iPhone more and more everyday. Its all about how you advertise. More advertisement the more you will get out of it. $$$
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

Trouble Trouble
Sent from my HTC One using xda app-developers app

Samsung should make a Galaxy S6 Active for power users

This phone should have the main GS6 feature along with:
a)waterproof with more robust design
b)removable battery
c) card slot
d) thicker (around 9mm) to accommodate 3000+ mAh battery
It would be an absolute killer phone which would make power users happy. Maybe not a huge market but almost certainly big enough to be profitable. At the same time there will be enough differentiation from the main model; those who want thin metal/glass design will pick the GS6, those who want features will pick the Active version.
My guess is Samsung will in fact do this in a few months. It's an obvious move.

Strategist said:
This phone should have the main GS6 feature along with:
a)waterproof with more robust design
b)removable battery
c) card slot
d) thicker (around 9mm) to accommodate 3000+ mAh battery
It would be an absolute killer phone which would make power users happy. Maybe not a huge market but almost certainly big enough to be profitable. At the same time there will be enough differentiation from the main model; those who want thin metal/glass design will pick the GS6, those who want features will pick the Active version.
My guess is Samsung will in fact do this in a few months. It's an obvious move.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My hope as well. But being an Active version, it will have 3 hardware keys for Recents, Home and Back, rather than one physical Home button as is now.

Where did you find these informations???
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 GT-i9300 using TapaTalk2

PIRATA! said:
Where did you find these informations???
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 GT-i9300 using TapaTalk2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's speculation based on the S4 Active and S5 Active plus a desire to see the S6's compromises fixed...

Strategist said:
This phone should have the main GS6 feature along with:
a)waterproof with more robust design
b)removable battery
c) card slot
d) thicker (around 9mm) to accommodate 3000+ mAh battery
It would be an absolute killer phone which would make power users happy. Maybe not a huge market but almost certainly big enough to be profitable. At the same time there will be enough differentiation from the main model; those who want thin metal/glass design will pick the GS6, those who want features will pick the Active version.
My guess is Samsung will in fact do this in a few months. It's an obvious move.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This would be brilliant and at least show that Samsung hasn't lost all their senses.
Also I would love having the recent apps and back button physical again because the consecutive ones are too easy to press accidentally.

If I was Samsung, this is the last thing I would consider. Power users are niche market, maybe just 1-2% of the market.
So, I see no reason why Samsung will even consider this. At best they will make a water proof cover or a limited version which is water resistant. Nothing much more.

CLARiiON said:
If I was Samsung, this is the last thing I would consider. Power users are niche market, maybe just 1-2% of the market.
So, I see no reason why Samsung will even consider this. At best they will make a water proof cover or a limited version which is water resistant. Nothing much more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
oh shut it, what do you care if they decide to release another verion? so only 1% of people that buy a samsung phone uses the sd card? lol.
i know why.. you just dont want to have buyers remorse for being an early adopter when a new s6 comes out 3 months later that is water resistant with an sd card.

tft said:
oh shut it, what do you care if they decide to release another verion? so only 1% of people that buy a samsung phone uses the sd card? lol.
i know why.. you just dont want to have buyers remorse for being an early adopter when a new s6 comes out 3 months later that is water resistant with an sd card.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. I currently use a Nexus. So, the expandable storage, removable battery, water proofing doesn't matter to me.
2. I never bought Samsung phone during initial launch, always wait for prices to stabilize.
Next time you assume something, just remind yourself not to do it.
I don't care whether Samsung releases it or not, because it doesn't matter to me. It makes no sense to release it from business perspective as niche market is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If Apple can sell 75m without any such features, I am sure Samsung could also sell decent amount (not necessarily as much as Apple considering the brand pull of Apple).

CLARiiON said:
1. I currently use a Nexus. So, the expandable storage, removable battery, water proofing doesn't matter to me.
2. I never bought Samsung phone during initial launch, always wait for prices to stabilize.
Next time you assume something, just remind yourself not to do it.
I don't care whether Samsung releases it or not, because it doesn't matter to me. It makes no sense to release it from business perspective as niche market is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If Apple can sell 75m without any such features, I am sure Samsung could also sell decent amount (not necessarily as much as Apple considering the brand pull of Apple).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. I would love for this to be real too, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

CLARiiON said:
1. I currently use a Nexus. So, the expandable storage, removable battery, water proofing doesn't matter to me.
2. I never bought Samsung phone during initial launch, always wait for prices to stabilize.
Next time you assume something, just remind yourself not to do it.
I don't care whether Samsung releases it or not, because it doesn't matter to me. It makes no sense to release it from business perspective as niche market is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If Apple can sell 75m without any such features, I am sure Samsung could also sell decent amount (not necessarily as much as Apple considering the brand pull of Apple).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Talking about assumptions....have you considered that Apple might sell even more if it had those features?
Also, your presumption that only "power-users" would buy those features is at best misguided. Most people who buy the so-called Active versions aren't power users, just...users who are into fitness, sports, the outdoors etc. Many in that group may not care about ALL the features but they care enough about some to seek out those models (or just buy regular flagships that have the least worst set of compromises e.g. Sony Xperias or the S5).
Samsung can and has outsold Apple. It isn't that difficult to do on a level playing field. Just ask Apple's lawyers why they keep launching stupid lawsuits when none of the technology these devices use originates with Apple.

Unfortunately, looking at the specs for the S4 Active & S5 Active reveals that they are prohibitively larger & heavier than the normal versions, at least for me. I don't use cases on my phones; I accept the risks in exchange for having lighter weight, easier handling, and quicker access to the internals. Looks like my hopes to get an up-to-date and seriously souped-up version of my aging S4 will not happen unless the Saygus V2 sees the light of day, or the G4/Z4 offers what I'm looking for. Any of those will probably be a step down in terms of screen quality to even the S4, but I'd rather sacrifice some screen performance for the important features I want.

hella356 said:
Unfortunately, looking at the specs for the S4 Active & S5 Active reveals that they are prohibitively larger & heavier than the normal versions, at least for me. I don't use cases on my phones; I accept the risks in exchange for having lighter weight, easier handling, and quicker access to the internals. Looks like my hopes to get an up-to-date and seriously souped-up version of my aging S4 will not happen unless the Saygus V2 sees the light of day, or the G4/Z4 offers what I'm looking for. Any of those will probably be a step down in terms of screen quality to even the S4, but I'd rather sacrifice some screen performance for the important features I want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why then do you ignore the soon-to-be-much-cheaper Galaxy S5 (qualcomm models)?
Once the bloated touchwiz stock rom is replaced with a lighter AOSP rom, it should be fast enough to use for years.

MiyagiSan said:
Talking about assumptions....have you considered that Apple might sell even more if it had those features?
Also, your presumption that only "power-users" would buy those features is at best misguided. Most people who buy the so-called Active versions aren't power users, just...users who are into fitness, sports, the outdoors etc. Many in that group may not care about ALL the features but they care enough about some to seek out those models (or just buy regular flagships that have the least worst set of compromises e.g. Sony Xperias or the S5).
Samsung can and has outsold Apple. It isn't that difficult to do on a level playing field. Just ask Apple's lawyers why they keep launching stupid lawsuits when none of the technology these devices use originates with Apple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should read what others type - I said niche, not power-users. The question is about priority.
S5 had removable battery, SD card, water resistant and yet Apple might have sold more iPhones in single quarter what S5 sold in whole year. I say might beacuse Samsung doesn't reveal break-up of individual models. It's safe to assume S5 sold less than S4 and subsequently less than iPhone.
So you would have to think what is people giving priority to? SD card, water resistant is definitely a plus point, no consumer will say that he won't get a device if it's water resistant. But it looks like these parameters are not "must" for many consumers. People are still buying iPhone even when these options are missing. This tells us that even though these things are welcome, they are not mandatory for consumers to make a purchase decision.
As for sales, Samsung's S-series never outsold iPhone by itself. They are the highest among Android phones, but not as many as iPhones. Samsung outsold Apple many times in total smartphones (low/mid range combined), not as a individual model. They are trying to get back in the groove, and that's easily understandable after the S5 sales performance.

MiyagiSan said:
Talking about assumptions....have you considered that Apple might sell even more if it had those features?
Also, your presumption that only "power-users" would buy those features is at best misguided. Most people who buy the so-called Active versions aren't power users, just...users who are into fitness, sports, the outdoors etc. Many in that group may not care about ALL the features but they care enough about some to seek out those models (or just buy regular flagships that have the least worst set of compromises e.g. Sony Xperias or the S5).
Samsung can and has outsold Apple. It isn't that difficult to do on a level playing field. Just ask Apple's lawyers why they keep launching stupid lawsuits when none of the technology these devices use originates with Apple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You know Samsung sells lots of different phones at different price points right?

CLARiiON said:
You should read what others type - I said niche, not power-users. The question is about priority.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You actually said (typed?!?) both:
Power users are niche market, maybe just 1-2% of the market.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The implication is clear. The speculative feature set of GS6 Active was only for power-users who were a niche market.
CLARiiON said:
S5 had removable battery, SD card, water resistant and yet Apple might have sold more iPhones in single quarter what S5 sold in whole year. I say might beacuse Samsung doesn't reveal break-up of individual models. It's safe to assume S5 sold less than S4 and subsequently less than iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is equally plausible given you don't know the figures: Apple might have sold less iPhones in a single quarter than the S5 sold in a whole year.
It is disingenious of you to compare total sales of all Apple iPhone smartphone models to just one Samsung smartphone model.
Why is it safe to assume S5 sold less units than the S4?
CLARiiON said:
So you would have to think what is people giving priority to? SD card, water resistant is definitely a plus point, no consumer will say that he won't get a device if it's water resistant. But it looks like these parameters are not "must" for many consumers. People are still buying iPhone even when these options are missing. This tells us that even though these things are welcome, they are not mandatory for consumers to make a purchase decision.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You've just argued that some consumers are happy to buy a device without one or more of these features. We already knew that.
CLARiiON said:
As for sales, Samsung's S-series never outsold iPhone by itself. They are the highest among Android phones, but not as many as iPhones. Samsung outsold Apple many times in total smartphones (low/mid range combined), not as a individual model. They are trying to get back in the groove, and that's easily understandable after the S5 sales performance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I say might beacuse Samsung doesn't reveal break-up of individual models.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You've already admitted that you have no way of knowing if the Samsung S series ever outsold all iPhone models combined. So, why make this claim?
I repeat, why compare a single model when the whole market is the real target? Samsung Galaxy Note users are potential customers Apple lost to Samsung too. As are Galaxy Alpha users, Galaxy Grand...
---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------
joshm.1219 said:
You know Samsung sells lots of different phones at different price points right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes.
Why did you ask?

MiyagiSan said:
You actually said (typed?!?) both:
The implication is clear. The speculative feature set of GS6 Active was only for power-users who were a niche market.
This is equally plausible given you don't know the figures: Apple might have sold less iPhones in a single quarter than the S5 sold in a whole year.
It is disingenious of you to compare total sales of all Apple iPhone smartphone models to just one Samsung smartphone model.
Why is it safe to assume S5 sold less units than the S4?
You've just argued that some consumers are happy to buy a device without one or more of these features. We already knew that.
You've already admitted that you have no way of knowing if the Samsung S series ever outsold all iPhone models combined. So, why make this claim?
I repeat, why compare a single model when the whole market is the real target? Samsung Galaxy Note users are potential customers Apple lost to Samsung too. As are Galaxy Alpha users, Galaxy Grand...
---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------
Yes.
Why did you ask?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your post implies that the fact that Samsung has sold more phones than Apple in some past quarters validates the features of its flagship device vs an iPhone, when you're not comparing the sales of one model vs another but rather 1,000 models vs one.
I'm a definite Samsung fan, but I know the reality of the market, and the iPhone has wayyyy more sales than the S series.
So you can't try to use sales as a validation of features on your side of the argument.

MiyagiSan said:
Why then do you ignore the soon-to-be-much-cheaper Galaxy S5 (qualcomm models)?
Once the bloated touchwiz stock rom is replaced with a lighter AOSP rom, it should be fast enough to use for years.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've been holding out for the S6, assuming it would retain the features the S series had always had, because the S5 didn't represent enough of a step forward over the S4 to justify spending the money. In terms of screen, RAM, CPU, UFS, OIS, etc., the S6 is a much bigger jump over the S5 than the S5 over the S4. The only big improvement the S5 has over the S4 is water resistance, but this comes at a price of being larger & heavier than the S4 than it should be, considering it's only a 0.1" larger screen. However, if the G4, Z4, & Saygus V2 (which won't have WiFi calling, but might still be so good that I can suffer without it) don't pan out, I'd take the S5 over the S6, even at the same price. Now, if they do make an Active S6 with the extra hardware features, and it was comparable in size and weight to the S5, I'd pony up extra $ for the S6A without hesitation.
TMo is still charging $410 for the S4 & $530 for the S5, so it doesn't look like the S5 is going to be very cheap anytime soon. I am still too in need of TMo WiFi calling to use anything but a stock-based, custom TW ROM, but that's never actually been a problem for me - I've always preferred the TW ROMs to AOSP. Realistically, the S4 is still fast enough. Still yet to see if TMo offers WiFi calling on the S6, anyway.

joshm.1219 said:
Your post implies that the fact that Samsung has sold more phones than Apple in some past quarters validates the features of its flagship device vs an iPhone, when you're not comparing the sales of one model vs another but rather 1,000 models vs one.
I'm a definite Samsung fan, but I know the reality of the market, and the iPhone has wayyyy more sales than the S series.
So you can't try to use sales as a validation of features on your side of the argument.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My assertion that Samsung can and has sold more smartphones than Apple (which is a fact) was in response to this:
If Apple can sell 75m without any such features, I am sure Samsung could also sell decent amount (not necessarily as much as Apple considering the brand pull of Apple).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wasn't using sales to justify features of the flagship as you put it. Anyway.....is the Galaxy Note a flagship? What about the Galaxy Alpha?
I don't know the model-by-model breakdown of Samsung's sales and I suspect, neither do you. Nevertheless, popular consensus is that the combined sales of all iPhone models yearly may be higher than that for the Galaxy S series. It is speculation at best but....

CLARiiON said:
If I was Samsung, this is the last thing I would consider. Power users are niche market, maybe just 1-2% of the market.
So, I see no reason why Samsung will even consider this. At best they will make a water proof cover or a limited version which is water resistant. Nothing much more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even if that 1-2% number is true that that would be 10-20 million potential customers given the vast size of the smartphone market. And they would be buying a premium phone with high margins. That is potentially worth billions of dollars of profit and it would be pretty foolish for Samsung to leave it on the table.
And it's not as if there would be a vast overhead involved. The could re-use the GS5 Active design with a few modifications. Marketing costs would be minimal since it would be targeted to power users who follow tech news closely. Overall I think it's a fairly easy business call.

Now this is something I can support and hope to see happening.