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soo.... i see very little discussion about this.
has anybody here looked into actually porting the iphone os
heres a link to get you going if you havent
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2007/07/13/iphone-os-x-architecture-the-mach-kernel-and-ram/
i know people say you cant...
hardwares not the same. man i asked a stupid question to fast. sorry. next time i will think.
i just think it would be fun. i probably would not use it very long since it wouldnt be very functional on anything other than its true hardware. since i doubt anybody has the kinda time it would take to get a full working version.
Easiest way to do this is wait till July 11th, save up $199 and go buy an Iphone if you want one that badely!
Unfortunately, because of the different processor architechture, you'd need to basically rebuild the core/kernel...
And, since it's virtually impossible to even get into the kernel, that seems like it could take a long time
The kernel is not part of the software image that crackers have been looking at. Instead, it sits on its own encrypted disk image, which appears to require massive brute force efforts to decrypt. If it is ever unlocked, it will likely have to involve a workaround crack, because it is scrambled with a long enough key that makes simply guessing the password virtually impossible.
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That is a typically badly written, lousily research roughly draughted article.
Saying that "other phones are limited to 2gig" and having the N95 with SDHC support there - ie. it can take 4/8/16/32gig as and when they become available.
And so what if the other phones have less memory - they don't need it! Symbian has been designed from the ground up for mobile devices.
Symbian are trying to catch up on functionality???? Where does that load of rubbish come from? The Symbian and iPhone browsers have the same underlying engine, and the S60 browser is about as fully featured as any.
clonmult said:
That is a typically badly written, lousily research roughly draughted article.
Saying that "other phones are limited to 2gig" and having the N95 with SDHC support there - ie. it can take 4/8/16/32gig as and when they become available.
And so what if the other phones have less memory - they don't need it! Symbian has been designed from the ground up for mobile devices.
Symbian are trying to catch up on functionality???? Where does that load of rubbish come from? The Symbian and iPhone browsers have the same underlying engine, and the S60 browser is about as fully featured as any.
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Click to collapse
Symbian does hang quite alot (N95 release build for example...)
Also, most devices have SDHC now, which is up to 32 (maybe 64GB soon). And, a large number of WM devices have more RAM than 64MB anyway...
WM has far more functionality than the iPhone OS, and both S60 and WM have developers
And now this thread has turned into yet another iPhone flame
l3v5y said:
Symbian does hang quite alot (N95 release build for example...)
Also, most devices have SDHC now, which is up to 32 (maybe 64GB soon).
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That is partly true my device only supports SDHC cards(even with the hack at this point in time) up to 4gb(if there was a 5gb card that be the max it supports, not even 6gb shows up in full).
yrsmart said:
That is partly true my device only supports SDHC cards(even with the hack at this point in time) up to 4gb(if there was a 5gb card that be the max it supports, not even 6gb shows up in full).
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I'd guess therefore that your device doesn't have the SDHC hardware (SDHC uses longer address bytes), and has instead had the drivers patched to recognise SDHC cards rather than be truly SDHC compliant.
I love my 8525 to death and I had thought it would fulfill just about any need I could possibly want in a cell phone (especially considering the impressive modding capability). Surprisingly, I discovered that it is lacking in one area: web browsing. This became more pronounced after I used the Xperia X1 for the first time.
Right now, the phones I'm considering are:
1) Xperia X1
2) HTC Touch Pro2
3) Toshiba G900
4) Toshiba TG01 (*drools*)
5) Let me cut it short: Basically any phone with 480x800 res or higher
So after mulling it over and doing an enormous amount of research, two particular points are sticking out in my mind: the importance of PPI (pixels per inch) and processors. To break it down:
1) I've been informed that screen clarity depends a lot on PPI and, basically, the more ppi you have, the better. Is this true?
2) There have been issues in the past regarding HTC and Qualcomm drivers. Is this still an issue in new phones?
Thank you to all.
Out of all those phones, the only one you'll one you can buy right now, and likely for quite some time is the X1, so that should make your decision much easier. And by the time those devices make it to the market, you'll likely be drooling over the Touch Pro 3 leaks.
Oh, and yes, Qualcom still sucks in all newer devices. Either use Core Player or just avoid movies altogether.
FYI: You clearly have an apetite for WVGA, just be aware, that many programs aren't compatible with that resolution. For example, the commerically available version of TomTom doesn't work.
Oh, I wish it made my decision easier, but as a traditionally patient guy, I'm all too willing to wait for the other phones. You also might be right about me drooling over the Touch Pro 3 leaks when those phones make it out, but I certainly hope not. I was completely happy with the 8525 in virtually all aspect, save for the web browsing experience, so if I could mitigate that, I might be able to hold the gadget beast inside of me.
It's also a shame about the Qualcomm thing. It wasn't just movies that I was actually concerned with, but general usage. Lack of drivers essentially made everything slower than it should be, doesn't it?
Lastly, from my usage of the Xperia X1, I realized the potential for problems concerning the screen. However, the only problem I encountered so far is with Java games. Everything else worked fine. I got Tomtom to work perfectly fine too (well, I got look fine. I'm still tweaking to get the GPS to actually function).
Well I say either go for the X1 or be patient until after the Touch Pro 2. I honestly feel that the TP2 will be an end of cycle device.
1. Hopefully WM7 will be making its debut maybe 2 to 3 Quarters later. (We have no idea what WM7 may require storage wise or even screen wise...capacitative?)
2. We are at the limit for the SDHC spec with 32GB cards not too far off, we will likely see devices carrying the SDXC spec next year.
I just have this feeling that unless you get a nicely priced carrier subsidized TP2, you will likely fell upset about having spent so much money if the TP2 isn't seemlessly upgradeable in the future. Besides, the TP2 is more of a software upgrade to current devices as it carries similar specs with the exception of a larger screen.
Thanks for responding, Sonus.
Concerning the TP2 being an end of cycle device, I'm not sure what that is. Do you mean it's the last device HTC makes before it starts developing devices with better specs? If so, I guess it's entirely possible. HTC seems to be big with Qualcomm processors, and Qualcomm has introduced those new Snapdragon processors. Of course, keeping up with new SD formats and Windows Mobile is important too.
I'm also not certain what you mean by 'seamlessly upgradeable'? Personally, I think the Touch Pro 2 sounds like a great phone. However, as I said before, I am a patient guy. I would be all too willing to wait for the new HTC devices (or whatever other company's devices), but it would make it a lot easier to start waiting if only HTC announces something.
8525Smart said:
Thanks for responding, Sonus.
Concerning the TP2 being an end of cycle device, I'm not sure what that is. Do you mean it's the last device HTC makes before it starts developing devices with better specs? If so, I guess it's entirely possible. HTC seems to be big with Qualcomm processors, and Qualcomm has introduced those new Snapdragon processors. Of course, keeping up with new SD formats and Windows Mobile is important too.
I'm also not certain what you mean by 'seamlessly upgradeable'? Personally, I think the Touch Pro 2 sounds like a great phone. However, as I said before, I am a patient guy. I would be all too willing to wait for the new HTC devices (or whatever other company's devices), but it would make it a lot easier to start waiting if only HTC announces something.
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Cosidering that you have a "buissness oriented device" and assuming you want to keep on that "line", I´ll erase from the list:
1) Xperia X1 ERRASED
2) HTC Touch Pro2
3) Toshiba G900 ERRASED
4) Toshiba TG01 ERRASED
So same as you, I am comming form an exelent device: UNI, also buissness oriented and the only one I can see on the sooner future is TP2
More similar to Hermes than to Universal
I have patience...
Meh, it doesn't really bother me whether the phone is 'business oriented' or not. Basically, when I purchase a phone, I look for three things:
1) Specs
2) Design (i.e. keyboard and frontal hard buttons)
3) OS
So long as all of the above fits my requirements, I'm good to go. Of course, if the device is meant as a successor to the TyTN, then it's all the better as it would make the transition easier (I suppose), but I don't think it's that important.
To be honest, I don't understand the difference between a 'business oriented' device and otherwise anyway. So long as the OS is Windows Mobile, it seems to be most anything a 'business oriented' device is capable of is also possible on another phone, save for the hardware specific things, such as GPS or FM radio, of course.
8525Smart said:
Thanks for responding, Sonus.
Concerning the TP2 being an end of cycle device, I'm not sure what that is. Do you mean it's the last device HTC makes before it starts developing devices with better specs? If so, I guess it's entirely possible. HTC seems to be big with Qualcomm processors, and Qualcomm has introduced those new Snapdragon processors. Of course, keeping up with new SD formats and Windows Mobile is important too.
I'm also not certain what you mean by 'seamlessly upgradeable'? Personally, I think the Touch Pro 2 sounds like a great phone. However, as I said before, I am a patient guy. I would be all too willing to wait for the new HTC devices (or whatever other company's devices), but it would make it a lot easier to start waiting if only HTC announces something.
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Click to collapse
Hey smart, you got my points exactly. I think the TP2 generation of devices will be the last with the 528Mhz Qualcom processor, and maybe the last of devices before SDXC cards start being produced. As for "seamless upgrades", I just mean attaining a bug free upgrade path to WM7. You have a Hermes, so I am sure that you are familiar with the issues and sometimes persistant bugs that present themselves when upgrading to ROMs with newer OS's.
If you want a look at the future according the HTC (at least for 2009) look here:
http://www.gsmarena.com/htc_2009_roadmap_leaks_in_pictures_seems_quite_promising-news-733.php
Sonus,
I see what you mean now and you're right. I did my fair share of upgrading/changing OSes on the Hermes and I also read a few threads concerning why some things simply can't work, so I am somewhat familiar with the importance of updated hardware. WM7, I believe, is supposed to be a milestone, so I think it's all the more important to keep a phone capable of upgrading to that.
Concerning HTC's roadmap, to be honest, I'm a bit surprised by some of those phones. It's a bit difficult to follow the roadmap, but it seems to me the most likely device to get a specs upgrade is the Thoth and possibly the Topaz. It may just be my interpretation, however.
Nonetheless, thank you for the link. It's enjoyable to see HTC's plans for the future and where XDA may go as a result.
8525Smart said:
Concerning HTC's roadmap, to be honest, I'm a bit surprised by some of those phones. It's a bit difficult to follow the roadmap, but it seems to me the most likely device to get a specs upgrade is the Thoth and possibly the Topaz. It may just be my interpretation, however.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Update on the list (This time w/specs!):
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=3428
Another thanks, Sonus. From the looks of things, the Firestone is the next HTC phone to look out for, though I'm disappointed it's only clocked at 600Mhz instead of 1Ghz.
Okay, I'm assuming you all bought your hero's for what it was capable of when you bought it, seeing as there were no confirmed updates from HTC and even Google scheduled yet, so why does the majority get annoyed when their phone misses out on the latest 2.2 update? It still has all the features you bought it for. Any update at all is a positive, no update is neutral since your phone didn't lose anything, it just didn't gain anything either. Besides the fact that our Hero's already have basic flash support and are ahead of most devices in functionality just because it was ahead of its time when it got released?
I am somewhere in the middle: somewhat content with my Android 1.5 Hero and somewhat annoyed at the lack of updates. I think the trouble all comes down to convergence. Let me toss a couple thoughts your way. Generally speaking, in the recent past people have:
1) Paid full price for a computer (laptop, desktop, etc) and then promptly go out at get what ever Internet service provider they want (cable DSL) etc. The computer works on any network.
2) Paid a reduced price for mobile phones for the trade off of signing a contract and being tied to a particular provider. In many cases, only certain phones are available on certain networks. This is the complete opposite of the computer case in #1
3) Expected that their computer will be upgradeable (for a fee) over the years, at least until the hardware becomes obsolete. I know I've had XP, Vista, and Windows 7 on the same machine.
4) Expected that if they wanted new features on a phone, they would need to get a new phone.
Now the phones and computers are, too some extent, converging into one device. If I use my Android phone to check email, twitter, facebook, etc and never make voice calls - is it really a phone? No, it is just another Internet connected device for which my expectations are typically that I can upgrade the device until the hardware becomes obsolete. I didn't necessarily say that should be free, but it should be possible.
Another aspect that people expect of their computers, is that they can load virtually any application designed for that OS. Even today, most applications (if not all?) written for Windows 7 still run on XP. With Android, the applications seem to have been tied to the OS. For example, with my 1.5 phone I still can't use Google Voice search or Google Goggles? Why? My phone has a camera and a microphone, but for some reason you need to have 1.6 for them. Same for the free Google Navigation. You need to have a later version - just to run an application.
Again, I am somewhere in the middle. I have been VERY pleased with my HTC Hero. At the same time, I sure would like Google Voice search, Navigation, multiple gmail accounts, etc. I might even be willing to pay to update it (much like Apple makes people pay for iPod Touch updates). But shelling out $600 for a new phone (I buy unlocked - which is much cheaper for me in the long run) for those features does not seem worth it.
The lesson learned might be to always by the Google phone (i.e. Nexus One or whatever comes next). Google are responsible for pushing out those updates and it seems to happen fast!
I bouth my Hero after I saw the HTC tweet that they are working on the 2.1.
Update from 2.1 to 2.2 is a natural function of Android - it's OTA friendly. If a manufacturer declares Android, it declares everything what goes with it. If they don't want to spend time on such minor updates as 2.2, they should declare that as well: Android without updates. And they have not. So people are angry for not getting what they expect. And the expectatons are absolutely reasonable. That's why I will NOT buy any other HTC device. I learned that they dont't treat us, customers, fairly. They are going to do the same exact thing with the Desire as well. Not going down that path again.
I personally haven't heard one person moaning about not getting 2.2.
But people are expecting 2.1 due to no updates being given on the OS since the handset was released. Hero users were promised a long time ago that we would be getting 2.1 due to 1.6 being skipped, whereas other, lower spec models had that update.
You don't know what functionality will be added two updates later, so not having them is neutral, no one is oblidged to update their products and they can be discontinued whenever they wish. Does it matter? No, you got the phone based on the features it had when you bought it, the phone doesn't all of a sudden get worse because it didn't get an update.
I for one will purchase another HTC device when I'm done with my hero, simply because they deliver the best product with the best feature set regarding android, if updates are slow oh well, I buy phones for what they are capable of at the time of purchase since I can't look into the future, and neither can you.
So - all you set out to do with your original post was anger people and not take into account other peoples point of view? I took some time to provide some rational arguments.
Dont you expect to get updates for your computer? Graphics Drivers? Network Drivers? Operating Systems? Surely you don't just by a new computer everytime you need that functionality. You expect either the OS Vendor or the computer manufacturer to provide updates - both to create new features and fix bugs.
Bug fixes yes, but as they said those will be provided, and no I don't expect additional features, sure I'll be happy with new features but I didn't expect them. Even though phones are getting closer and closer to being computers they aren't.
How are they different?
seshmaru said:
Okay, I'm assuming you all bought your hero's for what it was capable of when you bought it, seeing as there were no confirmed updates from HTC and even Google scheduled yet, so why does the majority get annoyed when their phone misses out on the latest 2.2 update? It still has all the features you bought it for. Any update at all is a positive, no update is neutral since your phone didn't lose anything, it just didn't gain anything either. Besides the fact that our Hero's already have basic flash support and are ahead of most devices in functionality just because it was ahead of its time when it got released?
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I was happy with it when I got it, it was after all the flagship HTC device of 2009. But then about a month later 1.6 came out, and HTC said they were working on an upgrade to 1.6. This was delayed, then 2.0 came out and HTC suggested they would upgrade to 2.0 instead. The same happened with 2.1. But you are correct that they never really announced any upgrades officially, it was just announced on there twitter stream. Which is half the problem really. They kept suggesting that they were working on an upgrade, but kept pushing it back. Had they just done the 1.6 upgrade and then stopped, I don't think half as many people would be annoyed.
What HTC did wrong here was to give inconsistent information, along with delays and then kept junking what they had done and telling people they were working on something better. As a result, people kept hanging on, and being told that if they just waited a little longer then they would get an upgrade. If HTC had just come clean and updated us with offical announcements, or had stuck with 1.6 and been honest about a lack of improvement, then people wouldn't still be waiting.
Also, if you look at the iPhone model, they may charge for upgrades but the original 2G iPhone has only just gone out of support. Given that the Hero was the 2009 flagship Android device, and was still being sold way into 2010, its a little hard to stomach the idea that its out of support so quickly.
tl;dr HTC kept pissing us around and making us wait just a little longer, when it could have just said "not going to happen, here is 1.6, sorry" and this is annoying.
Are we buying a piece of hardware which is only going to be bug fixed, or are we buying hardware which is going to be updated for a certain amount of time even after they're no longer selling it?
In my opinion we're not just buying hardware, we're buying a software package behind it. That software needs to be updated, otherwise some major killer feature in a slightly newer version isn't possible for you to get - such as Google navigation, can turn a 6 month old phone which has the hardware capability into a device which is so frustrating.
I expect my device to last around 2 years, various networks offer contracts on these devices for 2 years, I think it's fair to expect updates to smart phones for that duration. I wouldn't expect every feature to be supported (eg. no live wallpaper if the device can't handle it), but it should be updated so it's possible to run the latest apps on it.
The phone manufacturers need to be honest on how long they plan to support these things, because it is becoming an issue. People feel abandoned if they pay hundreds of pounds on a device and never get an update, whilst other users pay the same amount and get multiple updates. If HTC doesn't want to release updates then that's fine - I'll just consider it before buying the device.
clobber said:
I am somewhere in the middle: somewhat content with my Android 1.5 Hero and somewhat annoyed at the lack of updates. I think the trouble all comes down to convergence [snip].
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Click to collapse
Nice argument. I hadn't thought about the convergence issue. You might well have hit the nail on the head.
I see your point, but if you had gotten any other non android smartphone besides the iPhone you wouldn't be getting significant feature set updates either.
But some people bought the hero because HTC said they were working on 2.1 months ago, others bought it because it was advertised "Android" and assumed you'd get Android updates. Others bought it because it's a good phone, but to the first two groups of people, the promise of new features was a reason for buying.
People are annoyed because HTC won't provide an update they've said they're working on (2.1), which seems to be a marketing interference to get as many people to buy a new device, rather than keep using their all one.
Also annoying is that we're stymied from having a generic OS made with drivers for all sorts of mobile hardware, but that's more of a philosophical annoyance.
I'm ticked off at the lack of update, not because I think I deserve an update per se, but more because I think I deserve all the features to work properly on my phone, and they don't.
And it's not like I could have tried it before I bought it either...
I've been an HTC user since 2003 and have always promoted the brand, but I don't think I'll get another one after this.
Everytime I read mobile.engadget or any gadget site for that matter, I see posts "dogging" the Android operating system about how they are fragmented and certain apps/games won't work for older OS's/devices. Our EVOs have been out for almost 6 months now and this phone is still rock solid IMO but I wonder how fragmented (if at all) this OS is and what that means for this phone and future android devices. I'm literally asking cause I have no idea. And also what the heck is fragmented actually mean, cause all I get out of this is that the older Android devices just can't run the app or game because of the older/slower specs not necessarily because of the OS.
It would help if you posted the link. When you say fragmented, I would guess that this means that Android Users are divided between those that can run an application on said device and those that can't.
This is not any different that using M$ OS's as well. Not all applications will run on older Operating Systems. This is partly due to Hardware upgrades and partly due to marketing. If all software were reverse compatible then people would be less likely to upgrade their devices. Also the list of Drivers would get longer and longer as the Android Developers add phones to their database.
Apple only has what, 4 phones and 2 or 3 Ipod Touch's? And realistically most of the people that own these would have the 3rd or 4th Gen. Phone anyways. I think the "fragmentation" problem will exist on no matter what platform OS you are using, its just that Android is on sooooo many devices now ranging from Phones/TV and now its going into cars. It wouldn't surprise me to see it on X-box since they like to run Linux code.
So yeah.... Long story short its due to all of the different devices and the fact that no one keeps electronics for any length of time but IMHO Android will start to get a lot more life out of their electronics since the software is upgradeable like on a PC.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. We saw the same thing in the computer desktop arena. At one point you had Windows 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, Win95, WinNT, and Win98 all running around at the same time. Going back even further all the different flavors of DOS. The PC industry survived so will Android. Eventually you will have to upgrade so fragmentation is pretty much a moot point. IMHO
My guess would be because there are phones running multiple versions of the OS such as 1.6/2.1/2.2. Some apps such as task killers will work on 1.6 and 2.1 but not 2.2+. Game compatibility seems more reliant on what that particular phone is capable of. Our phones can handle just about any game available whereas a G1 or MT3G is far more limited.
Sent from my HTC SUPERSONIC
Fragmentation refers to the fact that there are so many different versions of android the app developers have to code for. With the Iphone for example most everyone is at version 4.1 or 4.2. Android devices are being released with 1.5, 1.6, 2.1, 2.2 and soon 2.3. It makes it extremely hard to code and optimize apps across all versions. I foresee this has having no negative effects on our beloved EVO's for though.
People like to point out the fact that there are multiple android devices, and not all of them are on the newest os (like some of the sgs phones not having froyo, or the moment, or hero for example). unlike the iphone, where there is only one device of each generation, and when the update is released, everyone can get it.
My take on this is I like variety, just because I like my Evo doesn't mean it suits everyone. Just like there are a ton of people that consider a hardware keyboard a must have, yet I would rather not have one. Having to wait for HTC and Sprint to release the newest version to my phone, or wait for one of the amazing developers contributing their hard work and skill to port it for use is just fine with me. Would it be nice to get it the moment google pushes it out, probably, however I can almost bet that the Nexus line will always get first crack anyway. This is just my two cents, I hope the explanation helps.
Sent from my HTC SuperSonic 4G using the XDA app.
Brutal-Force said:
It would help if you posted the link. When you say fragmented, I would guess that this means that Android Users are divided between those that can run an application on said device and those that can't.
This is not any different that using M$ OS's as well. Not all applications will run on older Operating Systems. This is partly due to Hardware upgrades and partly due to marketing. If all software were reverse compatible then people would be less likely to upgrade their devices. Also the list of Drivers would get longer and longer as the Android Developers add phones to their database.
Apple only has what, 4 phones and 2 or 3 Ipod Touch's? And realistically most of the people that own these would have the 3rd or 4th Gen. Phone anyways. I think the "fragmentation" problem will exist on no matter what platform OS you are using, its just that Android is on sooooo many devices now ranging from Phones/TV and now its going into cars. It wouldn't surprise me to see it on X-box since they like to run Linux code.
So yeah.... Long story short its due to all of the different devices and the fact that no one keeps electronics for any length of time but IMHO Android will start to get a lot more life out of their electronics since the software is upgradeable like on a PC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One example of many if you google...
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/05/entelligence-will-android-fragmentation-destroy-the-platform/
Yeah I'm not smart enough to know if this would effect our phones or not, but who really knows as of right now? Why doesn't Android just do what MS did and make a standard for what the manufacturers need to build in order for it to be up to par for Android (for once MS did something right in that regard IMO). Is that what Honeycomb is suppose to accomplish, a minimal spec sheet for manufacturers?
My two cents:
I think the "fragmentation" issue is primarily software related and is the fault of the manufacturers and service providers. That said, I think the most important issue is whether the fragmentation discourages developers from creating apps for Android.
As hardware and software advances there will always be features that will work on some phones and not work on others. This occurs with the iPhone too and is no surprise, however, Apple still rolls out new OS's to all phones so that the vast majority of users are on the same platform.
While Google has been releasing two versions of Android per year, it is the manufacturers and service providers who decide whether or not to roll out the updates and that seems to be a crapshoot. Since the manufacturers are not just tolling out vanilla Android, instead choosing to overlay their own UI on top (e.g. Touchwiz or Sense UI), this would require effort on their part to rework their UI to keep up with Android updates. And, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't... So, even though you have hardware in circulation perfectly capable of running newer versions of Android they don't because the manufacturers don't allow it.
I think most people would agree the number of quality apps in the iTunes store far exceeds the number of quality apps in the Android Market. However, Android has been outselling the iPhone for almost a year now. The question is: Is it the "fragmentation" keeping developers from porting their apps to Android? Or, is it something else? If it IS the fragmentation then I AM worried. I think 2011 is an important year for Android and I remain optimistic the Apps will come. It'll be interesting if they don't...
To Be Continued...
the evil fragmentation comes from low-end android phones also some developers not properly coding
Beejis said:
One example of many if you google...
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/05/entelligence-will-android-fragmentation-destroy-the-platform/
Yeah I'm not smart enough to know if this would effect our phones or not, but who really knows as of right now? Why doesn't Android just do what MS did and make a standard for what the manufacturers need to build in order for it to be up to par for Android (for once MS did something right in that regard IMO). Is that what Honeycomb is suppose to accomplish, a minimal spec sheet for manufacturers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
simple to answer i think, here's the thing, not every phone is going to be the same, just like not every carrier is the same, what i mean is that each manufacturer is going to have their own set of hardware and specs to follow, thus giving them an option to best choose the Android version that best suits the phone they are building.
Engadget is a huge iEverything fan, so they will help bash android and google just as much as Mr. duschbag, sorry i meant Job's, but you get the point, after all it was Jobs that first coined the whole android is fragmented war, however someone correct me if i'm wrong.
Besides if manufacturer were to listen to android about having a set standard then we might as well also be referred to as Apple, but since we're not under the dictatorship of Stevie, we don't have to worry about that.
Android fragmentation deals with both software and hardware.
Software-wise you have different phones having different Android versions -- OEMs seem to only support their phones for a year, sometimes even less, and sometimes not at all after it's release. You already see this problem with 1.6 vs 2.0 vs 2.1 vs 2.2; and as soon as Gingerbread appears you'll be seeing a sudden split between Android version share. This causes problems for developers because each Android version supports varying API levels, so some phones are inevitably left behind by developers.
Hardware-wise you have a lot of phones that are very different. You can have two phones of the same Android version and you'll still see app incompatibilities. Different CPUs, GPUs, cameras, etc., causes developers to work extra hard to make them all work; this sometimes leads them to drop support for some either because of the extra work it would take or because the hardware is just two low end. This is especially true with games and a reason why I think iOS/WP7 will be the leading mobile gaming platforms in a couple of years.
A lot of people think that Android Market will suddenly become the best once Android's market share inevitably over runs iOS; and I personally think it wont because of fragmentation. I don't think people understand just how expensive it is to develop and design an app that is of the top ~10% iOS quality -- it's in the 100's of thousands. Supporting Android is just that much more difficult for developers. Then there's the fact that a lot of the increasing market share is coming from low end phones which: 1) will probably suffer the worse from the fragmentation problem (incompatibilities with apps), and 2) would most likely not even invest into many paid apps anyway.
Beejis said:
One example of many if you google...
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/05/entelligence-will-android-fragmentation-destroy-the-platform/
Yeah I'm not smart enough to know if this would effect our phones or not, but who really knows as of right now? Why doesn't Android just do what MS did and make a standard for what the manufacturers need to build in order for it to be up to par for Android (for once MS did something right in that regard IMO). Is that what Honeycomb is suppose to accomplish, a minimal spec sheet for manufacturers?
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Intel did it, M$ did it, AMD did it, Nvidia did it and Apple is doing it now. The reason we use Android is so that Corporations don't MAKE us do it. Also, companies like M$, Intel and Nvidia have been pulled into court for things like this. In the end, they "open" back up, because thats what people want.
Brutal-Force said:
Intel did it, M$ did it, AMD did it, Nvidia did it and Apple is doing it now. The reason we use Android is so that Corporations don't MAKE us do it. Also, companies like M$, Intel and Nvidia have been pulled into court for things like this. In the end, they "open" back up, because thats what people want.
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People want open? Really? People just want good phones.
Best example....
Most people upgrade their phones every two years. So it won't really matter so long in those two years we get at least one upgrade.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
novanosis85 said:
Best example....
Most people upgrade their phones every two years. So it won't really matter so long in those two years we get at least one upgrade.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
So you'd be okay rocking a 1.6 phone right now and for maybe another year?
This may have been an issue a year ago but if you check this link:
http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html
you can see that 77% of android devices are 2.1 and 2.2. Newer versions of the OS will hopefully decouple software updates from the actual service carrier and phone manufacturer, increasing this percentage even further.
Google makes available many guides for deploying your application and being able to support across all versions. Also, the sdk easily allows you to target the newest version and features while still maintaining portability to older OS versions.
Basically, unless you are developing some crazy cutting edge application then 'fragmentation' is not an issue, hardware or software. Using that as a dividing factor with regards to gauging the success of the operating system is by now a stretch from the truth.
elegantai said:
This may have been an issue a year ago but if you check this link:
http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html
you can see that 77% of android devices are 2.1 and 2.2. Newer versions of the OS will hopefully decouple software updates from the actual service carrier and phone manufacturer, increasing this percentage even further.
Google makes available many guides for deploying your application and being able to support across all versions. Also, the sdk easily allows you to target the newest version and features while still maintaining portability to older OS versions.
Basically, unless you are developing some crazy cutting edge application then 'fragmentation' is not an issue, hardware or software. Using that as a dividing factor with regards to gauging the success of the operating system is by now a stretch from the truth.
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Click to collapse
I'd argue that the large share of 2.1/2.2 devices is due to the fact that Android has finally gotten popular and sales of current devices has really picked up. So a majority of phones are currently newer 2.x devices. Lets see how this is once 2.3 is released and OEMs fail to keep them up to date just as how it has been in the past.
That is one possibility, but if you look at the bottom of that page there is a stacked line graph representing the historical distribution over the past 6 months.
If you look at version 2.1 and compare its slope to 1.5/1.6 you can see that the older versions follow the same slope as the 2.1 slope, meaning that 2.1 phones were actually replacing physical phones running 1.5 and 1.6.
If you look at when 2.2 takes a steep upward slope you will not notice the same pattern of 2.1 and older following the slope of 2.2, which tells me that more people upgraded from 2.1 to 2.2.
So if this pattern holds, then hopefully it means phone manufactures are starting to realize the importance of providing newer operating systems for their devices. But as you said, we will see!
It's fragmented, but people wouldn't care if all the apps worked across all versions. That's really the only problem.
The average person does not care how many mflops their device scores in linpack or what their quadrant score is, they just want to play Angry Birds, and their phone they bought last year can't, and they aren't able to upgrade yet.
clamknuckle said:
The average person does not care how many mflops their device scores in linpack or what their quadrant score is, they just want to play Angry Birds, and their phone they bought last year can't, and they aren't able to upgrade yet.
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This.
10char.
I hope e this is try, and can run in our beautifful HD2.
...because i can't leave without Copy\Past feature in a smarthone SO....until that, i'm on Android scene.
http://www.winrumors.com/rumor-windows-phone-7-update-on-february-7/
Windows Phone 7 update on February 7
54 minutes ago...
Microsoft may be gearing up to release its first Windows Phone 7 update on February 7 according to reports.
LiveSide has tracked a number of French sites that suggest Microsoft will release its first Windows Phone 7 update on February 7. There’s no proof that the date is accurate and the timing is odd given that Microsoft chief Steve Ballmer will be in Barcelona on February 14 for the Mobile World Congress. Whether or not the date is accurate, WinRumors can confirm that Microsoft has Released to Manufacturing (RTM) its first update codenamed “NoDo”.
Microsoft’s first update will improve application start-up and resume times and introduce the important copy and paste feature. Microsoft posted a support article earlier this week that details the update process for Windows Phone 7 devices. The support article has led many to believe that the update is due imminently.
Microsoft revealed earlier this week that it has now shipped 2 million devices to carriers. Microsoft previously revealed that the company had shipped 1.5 million Windows Phone 7 units between the October launch and December. Research firm IDC and application platform Appcelerator recently surveyed over 2,000 developersto work out their intent for 2011. Developer interest for Windows Phone 7 rose 8 points to 36% ‘very interested’ according to the results. IDC says the interest was “due to a better-than-expected launch.” Survey respondents also said that “Windows Phone’s improved UI was a critical factor for the increase.”
Microsoft also revealed there are now 24,000 registered Windows Phone developers and over 6,500 applications in the marketplace. Microsoft’s customer satisfaction rates on Windows Phone handsets are at 93% according to the company. Microsoft is believed to be planning to unveil a second bigger update in February at the Mobile World Congress show in Barcelona, Spain. Microsoft’s second update will introduce enhanced developer controls for applications and updated Silverlight components.
Joe Belfiore, who oversees Windows Phone Program Management, and is responsible for the design and software product definition of forthcoming generations of Windows phones will keynote MIX11 this year. Belfiore is expected to layout a roadmap for the future of Windows Phone 7 and detail Microsoft’s second Windows Phone 7 update. Microsoft is also working on a major overhaul of the Windows Phone 7 browser. In a job posting, listed in November, the software maker promises a “major overhaul of standard support and new approaches to make significant advances in performance, power consumption and bandwidth utilization.” Microsoft may be ready to detail its future Internet Explorer mobile plans at MIX in April too. Microsoft is believed to be planning Flash and HTML5 support for Windows Phone 7.
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Lets wait, and see if Microsoft wants ot not, more embassatores for WP7s.....
From what i'm reading it seems to me that microsoft won't block htc hd2 phones, they want developers to go to windows phone 7, they want ratings to go up.
So to me is they won't block access for htc hd2's.
After the update...
Microsoft, does NOT want hackers and independent developers modifying their OS. The HTC HD2 will be excluded from the update. If Microsoft wanted this and other devices like it on the new OS, they would lighten up on their restrictions. After all THEY are the ones that control it.
The WP7 update will close the bug that allows the Chevron tool to work. Our only hope is that someone will hack the update to work. It's going to be much harder this time, as MS had some help and insight from the Chevron guys! Time will tell us for sure.
I actually don't understand how Microsoft could exclude the HD2 from the update, given the current architecture. Their own Marketplace servers think the HD2 is an HD7... if they could detect the difference, they would have blocked us already.
We know that Microsoft has designed the WP7 to have complete and total seperation between the OEM and carrier's device-specific modules on the one hand, and the vanilla OS on the other. Microsoft's updates are exclusively for the latter portion of the OS, which is why they can push out a single update package to all unlocked devices *directly*.
In short, my money is on the first update working just fine for the HD2, breaking very little in the process. It isn't a question of what Microsoft secretly wants. This is about HTC building the HD7 out of almost all the same hardware as the HD2, and any small differences were easily patched up by DFT.
I might add that since Microsoft has triumphantly announced that NoDo will break ChevronWP7, wouldn't you expect them to also announce that they had closed an HD2 loophole?
benjaminries said:
I actually don't understand how Microsoft could exclude the HD2 from the update, given the current architecture. Their own Marketplace servers think the HD2 is an HD7... if they could detect the difference, they would have blocked us already.
We know that Microsoft has designed the WP7 to have complete and total seperation between the OEM and carrier's device-specific modules on the one hand, and the vanilla OS on the other. Microsoft's updates are exclusively for the latter portion of the OS, which is why they can push out a single update package to all unlocked devices *directly*.
In short, my money is on the first update working just fine for the HD2, breaking very little in the process. It isn't a question of what Microsoft secretly wants. This is about HTC building the HD7 out of almost all the same hardware as the HD2, and any small differences were easily patched up by DFT.
I might add that since Microsoft has triumphantly announced that NoDo will break ChevronWP7, wouldn't you expect them to also announce that they had closed an HD2 loophole?
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I appreciate your train of thought, and love the optimism
Is there something like a kudos button here?
neugroove said:
I appreciate your train of thought, and love the optimism
Is there something like a kudos button here?
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Click to collapse
No, But he just said it
MS will surely shut down that bug on their os and no longer hd2 with wp7 ,but for surely they will hack into it , MS answered me that porting WP7 to HD2 WAS NOT ILEIGAL
benjaminries said:
I actually don't understand how Microsoft could exclude the HD2 from the update, given the current architecture. Their own Marketplace servers think the HD2 is an HD7... if they could detect the difference, they would have blocked us already.
We know that Microsoft has designed the WP7 to have complete and total seperation between the OEM and carrier's device-specific modules on the one hand, and the vanilla OS on the other. Microsoft's updates are exclusively for the latter portion of the OS, which is why they can push out a single update package to all unlocked devices *directly*.
In short, my money is on the first update working just fine for the HD2, breaking very little in the process. It isn't a question of what Microsoft secretly wants. This is about HTC building the HD7 out of almost all the same hardware as the HD2, and any small differences were easily patched up by DFT.
I might add that since Microsoft has triumphantly announced that NoDo will break ChevronWP7, wouldn't you expect them to also announce that they had closed an HD2 loophole?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wish I shared your optimism and hope you are correct, but from what I can understand, the update will effectively push out a new ROM having backed up the old one first.
Whatever black magic the DFT guys did to hack the ROM to work on HD2 would surely be undone? I therefore believe we won't get the update unless and until the DFT hack it.
There could be stuff below the ROM level that won't be affected and it could be this stuff that DFT tweaked - not knowing the architecture of WP7 I couldn't comment.
Being a pessimist, it just feels too good to be true that a update would work without any issue - hope I'm wrong though. This could be how MS propose to close the HD2 loophole. It would even work quite well for MS. Having had a taste of WP7, how many of us might go out and buy a WP7 phone having had an extended trial and then being cut off from our dealer...
Gustopher said:
I wish I shared your optimism and hope you are correct, but from what I can understand, the update will effectively push out a new ROM having backed up the old one first.
Whatever black magic the DFT guys did to hack the ROM to work on HD2 would surely be undone? I therefore believe we won't get the update unless and until the DFT hack it.
There could be stuff below the ROM level that won't be affected and it could be this stuff that DFT tweaked - not knowing the architecture of WP7 I couldn't comment.
Being a pessimist, it just feels too good to be true that a update would work without any issue - hope I'm wrong though. This could be how MS propose to close the HD2 loophole. It would even work quite well for MS. Having had a taste of WP7, how many of us might go out and buy a WP7 phone having had an extended trial and then being cut off from our dealer...
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Click to collapse
Yeah right, I wouldn't buy the same hardware again, I would consider if at least any of the wp7 phones get the Desire HD hardware, but none of them has it. If the update stop us from wp7 then I'll stick with android and wait for the next major hardware upgrade then I will look for another phone.
Voluntary update?
My understanding is that the update will not mandatory.
You can choose to update you system or not. So our HD27's will still work once the update is released - we just wont have the new features or be able to run apps that use the new featrues.
I thinks the chances of the update working are fair to good. From what I have gathered the biggest problem the DFT team had was getting magldr and the WP7 OS to play well together from NAND.
I may be wrong - but I like the "glass half full approach".....
I don't think you could update the hd2 , and if I was DFT I had prevented it from updating to (just to be sure that there are after a update no 14000 bricks)
i wouldn't be surprised if the HD2 could flawelessly get the update. Since it is an MS update, none of the hardware specific software/drivers will be affected. Otherwise, MS has to push updates for specific devices and that is not what they are planning to do. But who'll know? I am sure to be the first to try that out and if I will brick my device, than so be it. I don't think the HD2 can be bricked beyond repairing. With all the great tutorials, first aid guides here on XDA, I think it is safe to try it.
benjaminries said:
I actually don't understand how Microsoft could exclude the HD2 from the update, given the current architecture. Their own Marketplace servers think the HD2 is an HD7... if they could detect the difference, they would have blocked us already.
We know that Microsoft has designed the WP7 to have complete and total seperation between the OEM and carrier's device-specific modules on the one hand, and the vanilla OS on the other. Microsoft's updates are exclusively for the latter portion of the OS, which is why they can push out a single update package to all unlocked devices *directly*.
In short, my money is on the first update working just fine for the HD2, breaking very little in the process. It isn't a question of what Microsoft secretly wants. This is about HTC building the HD7 out of almost all the same hardware as the HD2, and any small differences were easily patched up by DFT.
I might add that since Microsoft has triumphantly announced that NoDo will break ChevronWP7, wouldn't you expect them to also announce that they had closed an HD2 loophole?
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Click to collapse
They can detect it from IMEI, first 8 digits state the manufacturer and model. There are DBs on the net to verify IMEI against phone maker and model. e.g. imei-number.com/tac-list
MerLinh said:
Yeah right, I wouldn't buy the same hardware again, I would consider if at least any of the wp7 phones get the Desire HD hardware, but none of them has it. If the update stop us from wp7 then I'll stick with android and wait for the next major hardware upgrade then I will look for another phone.
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Click to collapse
Fair point. Until DFT WP7 I was at a loss though; WM6.5.5 is dying through lack of new stuff, I didn't fancy WP7 and having had a play with Android it just irritates me - I know it can be changed but the default colour scheme and design looks like it was done by a class of 7 year olds with a box of crayons (NB: my opinion, apologies Android-lovers).
So at least I know now that I could go out and buy a WP7 device, but you are quite correct that the launch phones are a disappointing bunch, with nothing one whit better than my HD2.
I have a hunch that something sexy must be coming as WP7 slowly gathers momentum, so I'll hang onto my money for now.
What to do if the update breaks the HD2(7) though...
(Accepting that it may well be optional and might well not break it even then)
hyellow said:
i wouldn't be surprised if the HD2 could flawelessly get the update. Since it is an MS update, none of the hardware specific software/drivers will be affected. Otherwise, MS has to push updates for specific devices and that is not what they are planning to do. But who'll know? I am sure to be the first to try that out and if I will brick my device, than so be it. I don't think the HD2 can be bricked beyond repairing. With all the great tutorials, first aid guides here on XDA, I think it is safe to try it.
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Huh, I wouldn´t count on that. I can definitely imagine the updater could be able to detect the phone you are using (many of us showing "HD7") and upload specific drivers, too - the original WP7 devices did receive some updates already. To make the updates user friendly, they maybe include those brand/operator specific files and drivers, who knows. And replacing the DFT/Leo70 driver material with original HD7 versions might maybe brick the system...
galatei said:
They can detect it from IMEI, first 8 digits state the manufacturer and model. There are DBs on the net to verify IMEI against phone maker and model. e.g. imei-number.com/tac-list
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Click to collapse
Now that seems to be a bit far stretched... but who knows... modern times, no?
At least, it would kind of confirm my thoughts above...
It could be that we may get the update and install it OTA,but in absence of any immediate DFT or Chevron Development efforts we could very well get stuck with WP7 on our HD2s !!!.
I'm pretty sure we won't be able to update our phones successfully with MS's update... we'll probably have to wait until DFT releases an update to flash manually. But unless DFT pre-hacks the registry to make it show up as a HD7, we will have problems doing anything with it until a new way to unlock it is discovered. We'll have to wait and see what happens, but we will probably be stuck without updates for a while I think.
the only update i am looking forward to is massively improved battery life, this has to be from DFT.
haksam said:
the only update i am looking forward to is massively improved battery life, this has to be from DFT.
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Really? How can you live without Copy \ Past feature? I use WP7s for 3 days, and was very annoying without that feature.
And I miss, only copy /past but too, more share options and multitasking.... I like very much the UI, but I need quickly this features added.
Sent by my HD2 Gingerbread device
benjaminries said:
I actually don't understand how Microsoft could exclude the HD2 from the update, given the current architecture. Their own Marketplace servers think the HD2 is an HD7... if they could detect the difference, they would have blocked us already.
We know that Microsoft has designed the WP7 to have complete and total seperation between the OEM and carrier's device-specific modules on the one hand, and the vanilla OS on the other. Microsoft's updates are exclusively for the latter portion of the OS, which is why they can push out a single update package to all unlocked devices *directly*.
In short, my money is on the first update working just fine for the HD2, breaking very little in the process. It isn't a question of what Microsoft secretly wants. This is about HTC building the HD7 out of almost all the same hardware as the HD2, and any small differences were easily patched up by DFT.
I might add that since Microsoft has triumphantly announced that NoDo will break ChevronWP7, wouldn't you expect them to also announce that they had closed an HD2 loophole?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
actually, think about it, there is one single blindingly obvious difference thats so easy to detect they could get a 10 year old to locate them.
How many buttons do you have on your HD2? i wouldnt be sure there was no way of knowing. even if we take that out you'll still have some kind of unique signature on the cracked OS that we have all used, it would be near on impossible to hide the fact its an HD2 and not an HD7 if they really wanted to find out.