Database Users

An Open Letter to Android via Google and Forwarded to Samsung

Hi XDA-Samsung Users,
I've been a member of XDA since Jan last year. I went from owning a Nexus One to a Samsung Galaxy S i9000. The reason for the change was for the better specs and superior hardware of the Samsung Galaxy.
The phone is an incredible piece of machinery, but is severely hampered by the modifications that Samsung makes to the Android OS. I admit that the codec support within TouchWiz is impressive, but too much of the core framework of the phone is inefficient and sluggish.
Even using the latest release of unofficial firmware Samsung, Android 2.2.1 (JPY), there is still the occasional hang and the missing RAM (which is there somewhere, but not for user applications).
Samsung is mostly to blame, but there is also a quality control element that Google should be responsible for.
I have prepared an open letter that I sent to Android via Google Press and then forwarded on to Samsung for their reference. This were all through publicly available channels so will have to filter through customer service centers and the like.
I'm not expecting much, Google appears to use Amazon's customer service approach, "No customer service is good customer service".
But would like to post it here to hopefully get it out into the wilderness.
I tweeted it here http://twitter.com/#!/ibproud/status/27528781828722688
and would appreciate if you agreed with the content to retweet it. Hopefully it should give it a bit more weight.
It would be interesting to get the communities feedback on how mature they believe Android is.
Do they need to keep trying to make everyone happy or can they start to use the weight of their OS to get manufacturers to align the user experience?
Dear Android Team,
I am writing this letter to air my frustrations and to hopefully get some peace of mind that your strategy for Android will resolve some of the main issues plaguing the platform.
I have now been with Android for over 12 months. I used to be an iPhone user, but couldn’t stand the walled garden that Apple put me in. I couldn’t download directly to the phone, replace the messaging app or sync wirelessly. I went to Android because I wanted the freedom to use my phone more as a desktop replacement than as a phone/mp3 player.
When I joined the Android family (January 2010), I started with the Google Nexus One. I was so keen to get into the Android community I didn’t even wait for it to be on sale in Australia to get it, thus I hit eBay and bought it outright.
I was very pleased with the platform but could still see a few rough edges around the Operating System. It had the usability I was looking for but was lacking the polish I had grown use to with Apple. There was good news on the horizon with an Éclair update that would give the already beautiful phone a nudge in the right direction. As I was in Australia and the phone wasn’t here yet, I had to push the update through myself, after seeing how easy this was and getting the feeling of being a little phone hacker, I was hooked, I started preaching Android to the masses. Australia is still building momentum for the platform and it’s taking some time. Most of the major carriers stock between 4-6 Android devices, most of which are low end or outdated in the overseas markets.
I follow all the key players in the industry through Twitter and have a majority of Google News trackers picking up articles with android related words. I have also now converted my Wife to Android (HTC Desire Z, also not available in Aus) and I picked up the Samsung Galaxy S and gave my sister the Nexus One. The problem I face now is that I’ve run out of money and can’t go out and buy a new Android phone just to be up to date with the latest Android OS (Gingerbread), this would also be the case for most consumers. The Nexus S is so similar to my current hardware that I must be able to leverage the extra performance from the update.
But alas, we reach the major problem with the platform. Fragmentation. I’m not referring to the Fragmentation of the various app stores and apps available based on different OS versions but more to the Fragmentation of the OS based on the custom skins and manufacturer update cycles. The open platform that is closed at 2 levels, Manufactures and Carriers. I will continue to buy my phones outright as it gives me the freedom and flexibility to upgrade my plans as better ones become available. This always guarantees that I’m free from the bloatware that is preloaded on most Carrier bought phones and free from 1 of the barriers to the true AOSP experience. The next barrier is one that is running rampant in the interwebs rumour mill at the moment and that’s manufacturer updates and in my case I refer to Samsung.
Samsung Galaxy S phones come loaded with Android 2.1, most of them internationally are running Android 2.2 and just recently as select group of the devices is getting Android 2.2.1. This is now a month after Android 2.3 was released. For Samsung I would consider this largely negligent, considering they had the opportunity to work with Google to build a Google Experience Phone (Nexus S). The specs of this phone are so similar to the Galaxy range that a port shouldn’t be too difficult. I understand that there are a lot of constraints and dependencies in the development cycle that could cause delays as well as manufacturers agendas (mostly in unit sales). It is great that Samsung have sold so many devices globally but at a cost of the user experience as well as potential damages to long term retention.
I understand the Open nature of Android and the push to encourage manufacturers to put there own spin on the platform, but Android is getting bigger and more mature, it doesn’t need to be High school girl bending to the whims and peer pressure from the carriers and manufacturers.
There are a team of Devs in Germany who are working to port CyanogenMod 7 (Gingerbread) to Galaxy S i9000, but these guys have now spent over four months just trying to get through Samsungs drivers. The team didn’t start just to customise the phone but to actually make the phone work properly, I of course refer to the RFS lag issue and Samsungs modification to the framework that slowed it down. The goal of the team is to maximise the potential of the hardware and operating system.
It would be great to see some muscle from Google thrown into the mix, there doesn’t need to be requirements dictated, but maybe ethics encouraged.
There seems to be a few options here:
- Encourage device manufacturers to share their drivers, if it is too sensitive to share at least work with the community to help them do it themselves.
- Start to break down the way the platform is customised so that way the manufactures (Samsung/HTC/Motorola) skin the platform can sit a layer above the core code, thus be a quick implementation/customisation to get their skins working.
- Get each manufacturer to offer the AOSP experience to advanced users. This can be done through an agreement between the user and manufacture that states this will void the warranty and have its own terms and conditions.
- This last one is a long stretch, but how about taking all the manufacturers drivers into a repository, the way Windows do updates. When a new Android version is developed the drivers can be updated or incorporated and be packaged out through the Android SDK.
I may be completely off the mark. I’m not a developer and couldn’t pretend to know what effort is involved at any stage of the process, from building Android to rolling it out into the latest and greatest phone. The one thing I am though is an End User, a person that wants my phone to do more, to get close to being a desktop replacement.
Maybe I’m also being a bit idealistic.
I hope the Android platform continues to flourish and for it to become the Windows of the mobile era.
Sincerely,
Irwin Proud
E: [email protected]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

It's really an excellent summary. Consider there're even more black sheeps out there. For example Sony Ericcson which ones recently made a statement like Android is their favourite Smartphone OS and left Symbian in Nokias hands.
But we found also the good ones like HTC, which every Manufacturer should have HTC as its Paragon concerning Android Software Development.

Great write-up; I agree 100%

I agree with your post fully, and concur that the Windows Phone 7 model for OS updates is more efficient, and strikes a happy medium between iOS and Android's approach to upgrades. However it is also more restrictive in terms of handset hardware limitations
I suppose the idea is that customers should vote with their wallets and buy from companies with good software and firmware support. The problem with that is a majority of phone users (android or otherwise) are technically savvy enough to take such support into consideration when looking at the latest and greatest fancy phone in a store. We could all buy the Nexus One or Nexus S only, but this too is restrictive to the customer as other phones offer more/different features

my 2 cents worth:
I agree on your points - but I'd skip the first few paragraphs if I were the one who write the letter. Other than that, thank you for making the effort.

What exactly are you hoping to achieve with this letter? Google has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that samsung don't want to update their phones. In these type of situations it's just better to vote with your wallet and buy another manufacturer's phone next time and let Samsung know why you don't want to use their phones in the future.
Writing letters like these is just a waste of time imho.

What Google should do?
Toss3 said:
What exactly are you hoping to achieve with this letter? Google has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that samsung don't want to update their phones. In these type of situations it's just better to vote with your wallet and buy another manufacturer's phone next time and let Samsung know why you don't want to use their phones in the future.
Writing letters like these is just a waste of time imho.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please allow me to politely disagree. Google can do a lot about this and they have done this also. When I say they have done this - I am talking about not having Market application on Android OSes which come on non-phone hardware.
Google should put similar restrictions for loosley coupled skins, upgradable drivers. I had been giving this a lot of thought lately. I will sum up my thoughts with above letter as above:-
i) Device manufacturer skinning - Google should mandate that it should be just another APK within AOSP and users should be given a choice to turn it off.
ii) Device Drivers - Google should mandate there should be a better way of installing device drivers - similar to what we have in MS Windows (MS Windows is an excellent model of how hardware device should be handled - this lead to the exponential growth Windows is enjoying now).
iii) Android OS Update - If Google can achieve the above two, then the choice to upgrade the OS should be at user discretion. Of course, Google should mandate that there is OTA availble as an option. And obviously this OTA would be served by Google, not by device manufacturers. This would also free up time, effort and cash spent by device manufacturers in upgrading the OS.
So this is in the best of interest of everybody.
These restrictions if put in place, would free us all from this phenomena of running outdated OS.

Not sure what ti say on this one. It's true that Samsung has failed on some levels, however I must say that this is the first phone that has allowed me to get to know so much about the internals of the Android OS.
Modifying kernels, ROM's, reading about different file-systems etc... it's not a thing for the common user but I expect the people on this forum to be interested in such things.
Ok, if Samsung had done it right, we may have discussed these things anyway but it would've drawn less attention as people would not be looking for solutions to their problems.
But of course we have to strive to quality for everyone and this letter may just open some people's eyes at both Google and Samsung.

Thank you so far for the feedback.
poundesville said:
my 2 cents worth:
I agree on your points - but I'd skip the first few paragraphs if I were the one who write the letter. Other than that, thank you for making the effort.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Remember most members of XDA would be a cut above the average user. The reason this letter was written the way it was, was to demonstrate that I am a typical end user. Although I would consider myself leaning slightly to the more advanced side I wrote the letter based on a very general experience of the platform, an experience a lot of consumers would go through.
Toss3 said:
What exactly are you hoping to achieve with this letter? Google has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that samsung don't want to update their phones. In these type of situations it's just better to vote with your wallet and buy another manufacturer's phone next time and let Samsung know why you don't want to use their phones in the future.
Writing letters like these is just a waste of time imho.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What am I trying to achieve with this letter?
I really don’t know, but it helps to just get the thoughts out there.
With approximately 300,000 activations daily, I don’t think Android sees the true reflection of how their platform is received.
When the Galaxy range of phones was released in the US, they would have been seen as the closest thing to an iPhone that non-AT&T customers could get. So sales and activations shouldn’t be seen as the indicator of clever consumers or consumers wanting an open platform, but of consumers who wanted an iPhone but for the various reasons didn’t want to go with AT&T.
Remember: The international Samsung Galaxy is the only Android phone I know of that looks more like an iPhone than any other phone.
What I would really like to see is, that annually google will release a major version of Android. So V1, V2, V3, etc…. the mobile manufacturers commit to any minor or incremental updates per major version. So if Google says they are releasing Android 2.4 then they are saying to the manufacturer that this version will also work on any phone that currently supports v2.1 to v2.3.
As more and more people move to smartphones and tablets, more and more will we see hackers, spammers, botnets and so on attempt to access our devices. If we can’t have the latest updates that close any open holes then our phones become a huge liability.
Pierreken said:
Not sure what ti say on this one. It's true that Samsung has failed on some levels, however I must say that this is the first phone that has allowed me to get to know so much about the internals of the Android OS.
Modifying kernels, ROM's, reading about different file-systems etc... it's not a thing for the common user but I expect the people on this forum to be interested in such things.
Ok, if Samsung had done it right, we may have discussed these things anyway but it would've drawn less attention as people would not be looking for solutions to their problems.
But of course we have to strive to quality for everyone and this letter may just open some people's eyes at both Google and Samsung.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not really sure if Samsung has failed as such, but have put too much focus on unit sales rather than quality control and great user experience. They started releasing different iterations and modifications to the same phone without considering that each minor tweak to the hardware would mean more resources to develop updates and maintain each device.
I also agree that without Samsung I would know very little about linux filesystems, kernel and custom roms, but shouldn't all of these be more to push the phone above it's limits and not to just get it working properly?
There's nothing wrong with knowing the advanced stuff, however it shouldn't be a necessity.

The problem ironically is that Android is open source. I agree wit the letter above, but I can;t see how you can stop manufacturers doing what they want.
Also the Drivers being proprietary isn't going to change and device manufacturers aren't going to suddenly start releasing their closed driver sources.
Agreed Google should stand up and restrict the Skins to a single APK that can be removed, this would stop all the associated problems with HTC and Samsung skinning too deep in to the OS that it becomes impossible to remove it. The problem with that is, then any manufacturers APK will be installable on any phone. Which is something we know they don't want.
We already know Androids biggest downfall and so does Google. Fragmentation.
I believe once Google has the strong position they want and users demand Android when they buy a new phone, they will start to put their foot down and try to enforce standardisation across Manufacturers, but until they get to what they feel is that point, we're stuck.
Anyway much luck with the letter, I hope someone who matters get's to see it.
Logicalstep

[NEWS] Some Thoughts about "Spoofing" - PLEASE READ!

I wrote this article about the consequences of "Spoofing"...
Please read it...!
It would be nice, if this article could be translated into other languages and posted by other bada-portals...
THX in advance by Taxidriver05 form German bada-News-Blog badania.de.
(Maybe this post could be marked as "sticky"...)

Please...
Spoofing is NOT the reason why bada dies or is dead...
How many Apps/Games or other content is shared from Android and/or iPhone community?
Btw...
Why Flash Themes are much better protected as Apps?
DCF aka AES 128 is not broken for Themes...
Why Samsung share Fullcerts in bada SDK to sign Apps self ?
Remember... everywhere I can read NOT share private keys...
To prevent Security break...
Samsung Apps Store is hard to use...
Annoying Kies and Samsung Apps kona updates...
Then they are not able to handle certification process correct...
Remember Nxvigox or FEW other "jokes"...
Common, we have waiting very long... with maximum on patient...
With no Apps/Games bada is complete NOT attractiv for customers...
Not all customers can buy Apps for more then 5 Euro...
Also remember not all countries can buy...
Not all have credit cards...
Other pay method not ever work...
bada has many problems... more major problems then Spoofing.
bada Devs should ask Samsung about better protection of their Apps...
Hint... Flash Themes...
Best Regards

In some way you are right...
But you should take care about the fact how long Android and iOS are on market...
bada is quite young compared to thes OSes and should be pushed... Also by the community...
and spoofing is not an adequate method.

bada is quite young compared to thes OSes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But for instance me my self and I... have bada handsets since over 1,5 years...
2 years is very loooong time...
I cant wait too long... I'm not the youngest anymore...
Please, remember how long Samsung play with bada "2"...
Now at the moment we can also play with bada 2.
Maybe Samsung fix Security holes... 1 day... in future...
Normally they could do it...
Anyway.
Spoofing is not the reason for dying bada...
Bad Customer Support...
Bad Firmware Support...
Bad Kies/ Samsung Apps Support...
Bad and very stupid comments in App Store...
Why it is allowed to write so much nonsense in comments...
Many bad and annoying "mistakes"...
.
.
.
Best Regards

adfree said:
Spoofing is not the reason for dying bada...
Bad Customer Support...
Bad Firmware Support...
Bad Kies/ Samsung Apps Support...
Bad and very stupid comments in App Store...
Why it is allowed to write so much nonsense in comments...
Many bad and annoying "mistakes"...
.
.
.
Best Regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
etc. etc. etc....
I completely agree with you.
The failure of bada OS is not going to be as a result of lack of customers,
but bada will surely fail as a result of Samsung's lack of support for the OS.
At times I wonder why we the customers are more eager for bada to grow and survive, more than Samsung themselves who pocket all the profits from the sales.
We have endured for so long. We have climbed to the highest heights of patience with bada OS. Maybe it's time now to start descending from these heights. Our patience is dying everyday. It's just a matter of time.

adfree said:
But for instance me my self and I... have bada handsets since over 1,5 years...
2 years is very loooong time...
I cant wait too long... I'm not the youngest anymore...
Please, remember how long Samsung play with bada "2"...
Now at the moment we can also play with bada 2.
Maybe Samsung fix Security holes... 1 day... in future...
Normally they could do it...
Anyway.
Spoofing is not the reason for dying bada...
Bad Customer Support...
Bad Firmware Support...
Bad Kies/ Samsung Apps Support...
Bad and very stupid comments in App Store...
Why it is allowed to write so much nonsense in comments...
Many bad and annoying "mistakes"...
.
.
.
Best Regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately(?) I have to agree with you. Totally. I'm maybe harsh but in my opinion not allowing spoofing (or warez in any form) hurts Bada more than anything else... And I'm saying this by not having any warez on my phone. Why can android bloom even if all the apps are available as .apk everywhere? And it's the same with iOS. I'm pretty sure that Google and Apple would be able to lock down the apps, too, but they realized, that warez could drive the bussines. More apps -> more sold phones -> more profit (and more phones -> more users -> more sold apps so at the end even the developer gets more money..).
Of course it's just my 2 cents..

and think us who don't have paid samsung apps

Samsung doesn't really care about bada like you
I know this because i met Samsung employees & asked for their help several times but being a bada developer made them neglect me
Yes Samsung is too stupid in its way of support....if you don't have connections inside the company itself you may not get supported at all !!
And about Samsung Apps
Compare Samsung Apps to any other store.....
Even Android part is not that good in it
Samsung Apps was originally meant for bada but Android team wanted it too....
So now you can know who really get Samsung's support
About Spoofing
It is the way out for a user like me don't have a paid Samsung Apps till now
Yes it is planned next month...but you know Samsung's promises...
Spoofing is not killing bada....it is helping it to hold on or even keep its current users instead of going to another platform
Best Regards

http://developer.bada.com/article/Using-the-bada-Test-Kit
Btw... not realized before...
As I thought 1 App is limit...
But now bye bye Test Kid...
Chance to install more then 1 Sample App or self developed App,
without Samsungs Permission.
So 1 Dev not need Test Kid nor Samsungs Certification massaker...
Maybe then Filemanager or other usefull Tools possible. As App...
Best Regards

in my view, unfortunately, Bada is already dead
its pretty obvious by now that samsung wont be supporting/developing it in the future
maybe some more few firmwares with some bug corrections, but thats it
and spoofing had nothing to do with this
in fact, i think spoofing could only help the system to stay alive
one of the factors that made android a case of success, was the fact that the users could get most of the good apps for free (being it in a legitimate way or not)
no system will survive without a certain possiblity of hacking/piracy

I share my sympathy to all of you here. I too owned a Samsung Wave 1 phone before. It took me more than a year to believe the hope that Samsung will continue and develop Bada unto its peak since it fresh and young and it needs to cope up with what's already with today's other mobile platforms. I had enough already! I had my patience stretched with all the bad things given by our mates on the previous posts. But the patience eventually broke and decided I am worthy of the functionality I paid for. So sold my wave to my frustrations and I never been so happy in doing so after switching to android. Bada is good. But it has the least priority to Samsung. And that's the reason many hearts have been broken and wasted frustrations.
I do not hate Samsung. I hate how they handle Bada and how they fool the owners of Bada phones to but them. I own a Samsung android phone to date. But Samsung should not have released Samsung Bada from the first place. The way they handle its development is making themselves and especially their platform "Bada" shameful.

we, the people who bought bada phones are just the guinea pigs of a samsung experiment that failed
i bet a lot of people who bought a bada phone, especially the 1st wave (as is my case), thought the same as i did:
1) "wow.. such a great hardware for so little money" (i bought mine new for just 200 euros... unlocked!) "what a deal... hardware specs equal or better to an iphone, but at a quarter of the price"
2) "so it has a new OS... hmm.. its still in develpment and has room to grow... and with a big company like Samsung behind it..... hmmm... ill give it a try"
had samsung succeeded in developing the platform right, and today we would still have a killer phone
(imo, if my s8500 was an android or iOS phone, i wouldnt excahnge it for no other)
but unfortunately Samsung failed, leaving us with a great hardware piece of kit, but with no software to make really good use of it

Perfectly said!

Samsung conviction, 4.4.2 troubles and a cry for help

I am just another angry user, after the "fabulous" android 4.4.2 implementation made by Samsung for my (previously) beloved note3.
This is intended to be a an indictment made for a public conviction of Samsung, for what they did, and also a cry for help.
Please, if you have counterarguments and/or practical advices, expose them here.
I'm expecting at least an official position from Samsung, considering that customers of a 700 Euro flagship phablet deserve their complete attention.
I'm an Orange Romania customer, and I was one of the happy users of note3 (Orange firmware) until several days ago, when I decided to give up to the upgrade invitation message arrived, to move up to 4.4.2.
What I received:
1. The first and most important problem: no call recording program is working anymore. I do need such a program, because I receive a lot (I mean A LOT) of tasks and situations, only by voice calls, daily. Anyway, i really do not think I need to justify my needs, but I'm prepared to do it if absolutely necessary. Where is the solution, my "dear" Samsung ?
2. I'm not able anymore to read my IMAP4 mail account without activating synchronization. In the previous 4.3 version, with synchronization disabled, I was able to refresh manually the mail. Of course, with synchronization now enabled, the battery is drained in a day or less.
3. iGO cannot be used with maps and content kept on SD Card anymore. I've taken that SD card especially for my phone, now I am not able to use it. This is like a curse of Samsung, thrown in my face !
4. Adobe flash is now completely unusable. I used flash with dolphin very well on previous 4.3. Now, that hacked version presented here (thank you XDA) is extremely slow even on this monster hardware that is note 3. Where is that big difference from Apple, one of the reasons I've switched to Android several years ago, to be able to browse flash sites ?
5. If I'm not happy with an "improvement" offered by manufacturer, I think I'm entitled to request to keep my previous system, without any penalties (only at most with some excuses), but Samsung do not let me go back to the previous behavior of my phone. So, I'm not free anymore to use my own device as I wanted to do ? What the hell? What is then the difference that Samsung made in terms of freedom of use compared to Apple, well-known for their restrictions paranoia ? The freedom of Android and the efficiency of Samsung made me switch from Apple for good, several years ago, without regrets, but now Samsung seems that they started on the same path of restrictions. Maybe is time to look somewhere else and switch again...
I really think Samsung has to solve this. But not next month or next week, nor even tomorrow. Samsung must do something NOW: or a patch, or the ability to switch back to the exact previous behavior with 4.3
Thank you all for your opinions and (of course) valuable solutions.
LE:
Finally, after a long pain, a lot of nerves, but thanks to the supporting messages posted here, I've succeeded to "downgrade" my Note3 with kitkat , by changing it with a new one with latest JB 4.3 version, just asking for tech support at Orange and Samsung. If anyone interested, please read all thread, I simply asked them to restore lost functionalities, but I think I was really angry so their solution was to change the device.
Maybe some sticky messages (suggested in my post here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=51890578&postcount=22 would be useful for a lot of us).

The biggest problem is the Knox trigger that voids the warranty. I paid a lot of money for this phone and I should be able to use it however I want, rooted or unrooted, and they should have no right to void my warranty based on this.
I'm thinking to root this device and if I ever need to send the phone for repair and they won't, I'll play dumb and call for consumer rights.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3

lvnatic said:
The biggest problem is the Knox trigger that voids the warranty. I paid a lot of money for this phone and I should be able to use it however I want, rooted or unrooted, and they should have no right to void my warranty based on this.
I'm thinking to root this device and if I ever need to send the phone for repair and they won't, I'll play dumb and call for consumer rights.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was going to buy this phone later but after reading the op I think I will wait first or look elsewhere. Samsung is really copying apple and apple should sue them again...

1. Call recording is working, there's a mod for that, but ur device should be rooted.
2-3. I dunno never use.
4. Flash player is working. There's a way to enable it in Kk, and can be used with boat browser (dunno others).
As for go back to 4.3, it is unable due to the bootloader installed. They keep on making patches to the bootloader. Something that we cannot stop them.
@nm8 : samsung vs apple = never ending stories.
Sent from N7105, DN3 with AGNi kernel.

I could understand why all android devices manufacturers are trying to keep their customers away from rooting, this is just because possible increases in customer support expenses.
But of course, I don't want to break my warranty agreement, and with 4.3 I didn't feel the need to root the note 3, it was completely functional.
@nm8 - Yes, Apple could sue Samsung again, now Samsung is copying even the worst habits from Apple, I don't understand that crayziness of Samsung.
@antique_sonic - Thank you, I know about the mod for call recording, but as I said, I want to play fair and safe, to keep my warranty. And the same with adobe flash, it worked perfectly in 4.3, why do I need now that headaches ?
There are also a lot of other troubles with SD Card in 4.4.2, just another example: I'm not able to keep my apps backed up with ES file explorer on SD Card anymore. I used to make copies of my apps because I've met sometimes problems with some apps after updates, so I was able to return to the previous version of that app (AirFun from Realtek is just an example of an app that lost some functionalities after update, so I was able to install the previous working version from backup).
I wonder if there are some "eyes" from Samsung staff on this forum, what is their official opinion about all these complains ?
Thank you,

You do realize the SDcard issue is GOOGLE's doing, not Samsung's?
Google updates the Kitkat permissions, Samsung had nothing to do withit. Any issues with apps you need to complain to their developers to update their permissions.

Thank you ShadowLea, most probably you're right in technical terms.
BUT the real problem is, if I'm not happy with this change in Google's android policy, as a Samsung's customer, I need to be able to choose to keep my previous functions as they were before upgrade. In other words, I must be able to revert to 4.3, without any pain, penalties and so on, at most with excuses from Samsung. Because Samsung is now forcing me to stay at 4.4.2, not Google ! Is it fair ?
Thank you,

The flash player problem is also Google and not Samsung.
Life isn't fair and Samsung already have your money so why should they care?
It's not like the other options are any better. None of the other manufacturers care about you either.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

dr.m0x said:
The flash player problem is also Google and not Samsung.
Life isn't fair and Samsung already have your money so why should they care?
It's not like the other options are any better. None of the other manufacturers care about you either.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He should root the monster and be happy. Like me. Lol
Sent from my ME173X using xda premium

He should root the monster and be happy. Like me. Lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe you're right, but what about losing the warranty, if I will really need it in the future ?
Or maybe there is already out there a complete reversable rooting method for 4.4.2 that I don't know about ?
Thank you,

@dr.m0x - Ok, let's try to change something about this !
Still have no idea how to do it, but there must be a solution ! We must be the real owners of our paid devices, and we must be able to use them by our own rules, not their rules!
Thank you,

nick61 said:
Maybe you're right, but what about losing the warranty, if I will really need it in the future ?
Or maybe there is already out there a complete reversable rooting method for 4.4.2 that I don't know about ?
Thank you,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
reversable in terms of unroot = YES
reversable in terms of KNOX flag = NO (bounty hunter for this has reached $3K+, yet no one claims)
nick61 said:
@dr.m0x - Ok, let's try to change something about this !
Still have no idea how to do it, but there must be a solution ! We must be the real owners of our paid devices, and we must be able to use them by our own rules, not their rules!
Thank you,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
at the moment to be the "real owner" in terms to be able to fully utilize is only to root your device, and those "headache" setting for flash player. But "real owner" to be able to reverse KNOX flag is still a NO answer at the moment.
And "real owner" to be able to reverse/downgrade bootloader (without any problem), also stil a NO at the moment
Just do a few testing of common issue on Note 3 + read properly on how to root + use any other custom thingy (follow properly what the thread said), you are good to go.
Warranty so far is needed for those who never try to understand first what is the thread said.
Though all the devs here develop thing just for hobbies and free (donation is optional), they will do all the necessary testing on their device first before releasing it out. So, if their device can work, similar device to them should be able to work properly (doesn't necessary to claim your warranty, unless there's a hardware failure due to several tweaking you eager to try yourself without reading properly)
All I wrote here is just my opinion, just a thought. You may not agree, and not necessary to follow.

I'm totally with you... This actually looks like a "Double - penetration" by Sammy AND Google two companies destined to lose costumers... See? http://bbc.com/news/business-26933449
My unrooted, bloatware-ated, kit-kat-ed note 3 is half useful in practical terms than the rooted S3 I gave to my wife, if it weren't for the screen size, I would have change it with the old S3.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

I'm samsung user from galaxy s2, note 1. And now note 3. I'm happy to use both devices on previous.
But since knox implementation on note 3. I feel like stuck in some where I cannot do any what I want on the phone.
I though that having note 3 will same as having note 1 and s2. Freedom...
So, this probably will my last samsung device. Will switch to other brand if i change phone.
Sent from my SM-N9005

When you look at the perspective of root/ void warranty everybrand is more or less the same except nexus and sime new china brands like xiaomi or oppo. In htc you void your warranty by unlockibg bootloader. Sony same thing (sony devices you can backup your ta) lg as qfuses and the list can be larger.
I had twice problems with samsung knoxed devices (2 s4) and they never rejected warranty repairs. And you can allways kill your device in order to cheat samsung service. Like they cheat you putt a flag on your phone. So I decided to trip mine again and if they refuse warranty I will be give them a nice war.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app

Thank you all for your empathy and support.
Encouraged by all these messages, I've succeeded yesterday to CHANGE THE NOTE3 with a new one with latest 4.3 version at Orange service.
I don't know if they agreed to solve my request only because my old client status, but the service tech guy from Orange, specialized in Samsung devices, spent over 4 hours looking for all the flaws and troubles I've mentioned with 4.4.2. Also, he had several long phone conversations with a tech guy from Samsung.
My advice to everyone in the same situation is to try everything they could try, and also, if possible, DO NOT UPDATE TO 4.4.2 !
Now my device is completely restored to full functionalities: call recording, flash sites with the last official adobe flash apk and dolphin and reasonable speed, battery is again lasting at least 2 days of heavy use (calls, net, video, mails, everyday notes etc.)
Also, I've learned that even the "inside" guys from tech support have no other clever solution to downgrade or to solve my problems.
Both Orange and Samsung tech guys promised to inform and escalate my complaints about 4.4.2 implementation so maybe there will be a patch in the near future.
Thanks again XDA,

nick61 said:
I am just another angry user, after the "fabulous" android 4.4.2 implementation made by Samsung for my (previously) beloved note3.
This is intended to be a an indictment made for a public conviction of Samsung, for what they did, and also a cry for help.
Please, if you have counterarguments and/or practical advices, expose them here.
I'm expecting at least an official position from Samsung, considering that customers of a 700 Euro flagship phablet deserve their complete attention.
I'm an Orange Romania customer, and I was one of the happy users of note3 (Orange firmware) until several days ago, when I decided to give up to the upgrade invitation message arrived, to move up to 4.4.2.
What I received:
1. The first and most important problem: no call recording program is working anymore. I do need such a program, because I receive a lot (I mean A LOT) of tasks and situations, only by voice calls, daily. Anyway, i really do not think I need to justify my needs, but I'm prepared to do it if absolutely necessary. Where is the solution, my "dear" Samsung ?
2. I'm not able anymore to read my IMAP4 mail account without activating synchronization. In the previous 4.3 version, with synchronization disabled, I was able to refresh manually the mail. Of course, with synchronization now enabled, the battery is drained in a day or less.
3. iGO cannot be used with maps and content kept on SD Card anymore. I've taken that SD card especially for my phone, now I am not able to use it. This is like a curse of Samsung, thrown in my face !
4. Adobe flash is now completely unusable. I used flash with dolphin very well on previous 4.3. Now, that hacked version presented here (thank you XDA) is extremely slow even on this monster hardware that is note 3. Where is that big difference from Apple, one of the reasons I've switched to Android several years ago, to be able to browse flash sites ?
5. If I'm not happy with an "improvement" offered by manufacturer, I think I'm entitled to request to keep my previous system, without any penalties (only at most with some excuses), but Samsung do not let me go back to the previous behavior of my phone. So, I'm not free anymore to use my own device as I wanted to do ? What the hell? What is then the difference that Samsung made in terms of freedom of use compared to Apple, well-known for their restrictions paranoia ? The freedom of Android and the efficiency of Samsung made me switch from Apple for good, several years ago, without regrets, but now Samsung seems that they started on the same path of restrictions. Maybe is time to look somewhere else and switch again...
I really think Samsung has to solve this. But not next month or next week, nor even tomorrow. Samsung must do something NOW: or a patch, or the ability to switch back to the exact previous behavior with 4.3
1....pe forum gasesti versiunea modificata pentru adobe flash care merge f bine pe kitkat cu firefox de exemplu.
2. Daca copiezi continutul igo pe internal nu pe external o sa iti functioneze perfect. Oricum asta e vina google si nu samsung, si mai avem si 32 interni, deci destul loc
3. Pentru mail iti recomand K-9 mail client il regasesti pe play store.
4. Inregistrarea convorbirilor e putintel ilegala fara mandat...deci...cred totusi ca te plangi prea tare pt niste chestii care din cate stiu eu au toate rezolvare pe aici pe la xda
My poit is that all of his problems has an workaround here on xda. Only first one need a root. The rest of them is a metter of minutes of searching xda.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

@calinormy
Thank you for your message (let's keep it in english if anyone else is interested).
Point by point (in fact covered in the first post):
1. Yes, I've already tried the hacked flash for 4.4.2, is unbelievable slow on such a monster (hardware speaking) as note3. Official old version is stable and flawless in 4.3
2. Ok, that's true, but I want to use the internal speedy memory for other stuff, and I want to organize files on my own rules, not their's... yes, this is a Google's problem, but my request to Samsung is to let me downgrade from 4.4.2 if I do not like it.
3. I'll check it
4. Concerning call recording, the legal issues are exclusively my problems, not Samsung's. In fact, is not even a legal problem, if the other person is informed about recording.
But please read my last post, they've changed my phone with another new one with 4.3 !
Thank you,

Glad you got your problems sorted. KK is ****, said the man who refuses to try it. Because it's ****
New firmware doesn't always mean better. For me, Gingerbread was a hell of a lot better than ICS.

To be frank... I don't know what the hell is beneficial "for me" by upgrading to kitkat All the changes in KitKat are about implementing restrictions by Samsung or Google If I wanted to be restricted I would have chosen an iPhone in the first place... They simply sh&#tted on what all android is about :silly: and the as#hole sammy even lured people into upgrading. Never again will I trust all those official phone reviewers on forums or youtube... the ordinary man's experience is what counts.

legal action against huawei over sources

so i recently finished updating my brothers Galaxy S5 to the latest CM13 nightly. while doing this i became furiously jealous. not of the phone but of the fact that its able to run CM. the following day while on my break from class i decided to launch one final attempt at getting custom roms to not only the mate7 but to hopefully all huawei devices.
as we all know, android is open source and free to use. if oems decide to use it on their hardware they are legally obligated to release all possible sources for any and all to use/inspect. huawei has continually refused to do so....... kinda.
so i bought my mate7 from an amazon merchant who imported it from china. why does this matter? on the US huawei site, one can purchase small range of huawe phones (the P8 lite, GX8 and Mate2). huawei has provided all sources for these phones. if you check their xda forums you can see that there are custom roms for all of these.
so, since i didnt buy my mate7 from an authorized US retailer, i have no legal recourse. while this sucks for me, that means that maybe someone in the EU or elsewhere will have luck. other countries have strict laws that protect consumers against OEMs.
all i need is someone to help out with a bit of research so that i/we can hopefully get huawei to comply. look at lenovo/motorola and their situation. i cant be the only one that despises not being able to fully control my device.
its not only a ui issue, its also a huge security issue. who's to say that china isnt spying on us through our devices?? maybe thats why huawei is so adamant on keeping their sources. either way, i think we should unite and give this a try because it looks like huawei might soon be the only OEM to produce top end phablets.

I am in Australia and got my mate 7 from Vodafone here, what do you need me to do to help?
Sent from my JAZZ using Tapatalk

snake65 said:
I am in Australia and got my mate 7 from Vodafone here, what do you need me to do to help?
Sent from my JAZZ using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
first of all.... THANK YOU!!! with that out of the way, the device must have a kirin processor (i know they all are but i have to make sure). since you purchased it from your local authorized dealer, then that means Vodafone and Huawei have a contract.
this is where we can all contribute. here in the US, service providers aren't legally obligated to provided updates to their phones. in some countries they are. there was mention of one country where consumers where legally obligated to 2 years of updates and some other perks.
in your case snake65, i would kindly suggest you start by researching if these laws apply to you in your country. secondly, start a dialogue with a Vodafone representative in a hope to getting the contact information of a huawei official.
i have been in contact with a few but because they are from the north america office and my device is not legally provided here they have refused to help me and by extent everyone else. legal threats wont work with the chinese branch but im hoping that will change in other countries.
im currently trying to get in touch with google over the matter but that is proving to be very difficult. the google product forums will be my next stop. i hope to get some more leads and hopefully more help. thanks again to any and all that can and are willing to help!

i was planning on posting a discussion thread regarding this topic in as many other huawei device subforums but since i still have a few more hours at work and finals this week, i would appreciate it if anyone could help out. maybe the mate 8, p8 forums. thanks to any and all who can help.

droidbot1337 said:
first of all.... THANK YOU!!! with that out of the way, the device must have a kirin processor (i know they all are but i have to make sure). since you purchased it from your local authorized dealer, then that means Vodafone and Huawei have a contract.
this is where we can all contribute. here in the US, service providers aren't legally obligated to provided updates to their phones. in some countries they are. there was mention of one country where consumers where legally obligated to 2 years of updates and some other perks.
in your case snake65, i would kindly suggest you start by researching if these laws apply to you in your country. secondly, start a dialogue with a Vodafone representative in a hope to getting the contact information of a huawei official.
i have been in contact with a few but because they are from the north america office and my device is not legally provided here they have refused to help me and by extent everyone else. legal threats wont work with the chinese branch but im hoping that will change in other countries.
im currently trying to get in touch with google over the matter but that is proving to be very difficult. the google product forums will be my next stop. i hope to get some more leads and hopefully more help. thanks again to any and all that can and are willing to help!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wish I could help with the legal side of things, but I bought my device in Tanzania. Huawei does have an office here, however I SERIOUSLY doubt there are any laws here regarding open source software policies.
But I can't think that Google wouldn't be able to step in? Isn't the whole point of Android being open sourced? As far as I understand it (I've only read a few articles on his over the past year or so) is that the only sources that a company can withhold (if their device is running Android, of course) would be software / applications developed and legally owned by them, for example Samsung Pay and so on. Withholding kernel sources does not (once again, according to my knowledge) fall within the rules of using the Android platform. This might also only be applicable law in the US, but I really don't know.
If there are any French users, I understand they just opened up a massive office somewhere in France, in Paris if memory serves. Perhaps they could be helpful?

Isn't there a full kernel source on one of the site's. Is that all that's needed?
Is this any good.
http://www.emui.com/plugin.php?id=hwdownload&mod=detail&mid=97
Or this
http://emui.huawei.com/en/plugin.php?id=hwdownload&mod=detail&mid=74
Sent from my JAZZ using Tapatalk

snake65 said:
Isn't there a full kernel source on one of the site's. Is that all that's needed?
Is this any good.
http://www.emui.com/plugin.php?id=hwdownload&mod=detail&mid=97
Or this
http://emui.huawei.com/en/plugin.php?id=hwdownload&mod=detail&mid=74
Sent from my JAZZ using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
According to what i have read and collected from the forum these are not the only things required to build a custom rom, someone mentioned there are other huawei pieces which they didn't release. Also these kernal sources are for kitkat and lolipop and npt for the marshmallow. In one thread i have read that the kernal sources for marshmallow have been released but its not compilable, so they have made some tweaks to make the kernal compilable. But they require more sources from huawei ("sources for magic bits from huawei") without which building any custom rom is not possible.

wow! thanks to everyone that is showing interest in this. @Scruffykid: that is indeed true. they are legally supposed to share all the sources for their devices. the north american branch of huawei has been doing this for their devices but those are few in number (4) and snapdragon soc based. this is why my attempts to convey my concerns with the north american branch has failed.
they dont see any solution because they are not responsible for my devices since its not technically a north american product. i have tried to get contact info from huawei so that i can start a dialogue but that has not been easy. their forums are also of no use. they keep on deleting my threads regarding the subject and i have been banned 4 times so im starting to reach my limit.
btw, it really irritates me how much people dont seem to care about this. android n will soon be upon us and i doubt we will get it but even if we do it will no doubt be a crippled mess. we really need to get huawei to comply for not just our benefit but them as well.

droidbot1337 said:
wow! thanks to everyone that is showing interest in this. @Scruffykid: that is indeed true. they are legally supposed to share all the sources for their devices. the north american branch of huawei has been doing this for their devices but those are few in number (4) and snapdragon soc based. this is why my attempts to convey my concerns with the north american branch has failed.
they dont see any solution because they are not responsible for my devices since its not technically a north american product. i have tried to get contact info from huawei so that i can start a dialogue but that has not been easy. their forums are also of no use. they keep on deleting my threads regarding the subject and i have been banned 4 times so im starting to reach my limit.
btw, it really irritates me how much people dont seem to care about this. android n will soon be upon us and i doubt we will get it but even if we do it will no doubt be a crippled mess. we really need to get huawei to comply for not just our benefit but them as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't say people don't care, but do you have any idea the resources you need to take legal action against Huawei?
If it bugs you enough it's just much quicker to switch brands I guess.
Sent using Tapatalk

I don't know why everyone is so desperate for custom ROMs anyway. They always have bugs and unless it's a Samsung touchwiz phone, people tend to go back to stock software rooted.
I have an oppo Find 7 which has a bunch of custom ROMs available and mine is still on oppo ColorOS and rooted.
My Mate 7 on Lollipop runs really nice and there's absolutely no need to even flash it to anything else.

RobboW said:
I don't know why everyone is so desperate for custom ROMs anyway. They always have bugs and unless it's a Samsung touchwiz phone, people tend to go back to stock software rooted.
I have an oppo Find 7 which has a bunch of custom ROMs available and mine is still on oppo ColorOS and rooted.
My Mate 7 on Lollipop runs really nice and there's absolutely no need to even flash it to anything else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
then clearly my friend, this does not concern you. if your happy then keep emui, but many of us would rather have change. this is not a thread meant to justify our need for custom roms. also, eventually huawei will stop supporting devices. what then? just look at the mediapad x1, it was skipped for marshmallow after only having one update.
this is why sources are needed. no one is saying that you have to use costom roms and actually its not even about that. sure i would love cyanogenmod or omni rom but i would just be happy with aosp android and not that ****ed monstrosity that is emui.
so, to anyone else that wants to sing over their love for emui, please do so on your own thread and not here. this meant for those of us that want our moneys worth. btw, do some googling on huawei product reviews. they all feel the same overall. great hardware, **** software.

I'm all for someone to have a go at doing custom ROMs (if they were not buggy) and Huawei would do well to release all the software sources, especially now that they decided to be a global mobile device powerhouse rather than just a Chinese local. I do think you have zero chance of making an impact. It's a massive company and lets face it, Chinese do not care about what is right or wrong, or about international law. All they care about is making some money. The thing that would hit them is if people stop buying the product.

droidbot1337 said:
wow! thanks to everyone that is showing interest in this. @Scruffykid: that is indeed true. they are legally supposed to share all the sources for their devices. the north american branch of huawei has been doing this for their devices but those are few in number (4) and snapdragon soc based. this is why my attempts to convey my concerns with the north american branch has failed.
they dont see any solution because they are not responsible for my devices since its not technically a north american product. i have tried to get contact info from huawei so that i can start a dialogue but that has not been easy. their forums are also of no use. they keep on deleting my threads regarding the subject and i have been banned 4 times so im starting to reach my limit.
btw, it really irritates me how much people dont seem to care about this. android n will soon be upon us and i doubt we will get it but even if we do it will no doubt be a crippled mess. we really need to get huawei to comply for not just our benefit but them as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you should talk to the Google branch from the country in which the phone originated. My specific device (judging by the builds I receive during OTA updates) is from the Asian Pacific region, but obviously then there are European and Middle Eastern versions as well. Try getting in touch with a Google office there?
As @kta said though, taking actual legal action against Huawei will just be a waste of time. If Google can help by simply telling them to release the software (if it does indeed break the law/Google's rules, which it may not). At the end of the day just switching to a device that does have publicly available sources will be the cheapest and most hassle-free way to go.
kta said:
I wouldn't say people don't care, but do you have any idea the resources you need to take legal action against Huawei?
If it bugs you enough it's just much quicker to switch brands I guess.
Sent using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

We should share this thread to other huawei device forums like mate 8 so that we gather more strength.

Galaxy View update to 6.0 or greater? Project XCloud purposes

Project XCloud is coming out soon and the Galaxy View tablets will be the perfect tablets to have portable xbox gaming on the go however the minimum requirements for Project XCloud is 6.0 (Marshmallow) or higher! The highest version the original Galaxy View has is 5.1 (Lollipop) now I'm aware their's custom roms for higher android versions but I don't want to strip the original software from Samsung in favor of other roms, is there anything we can do to have the software updated? Mine is the AT&T 64GB Black model that is LTE + Wifi.

Bump, I'm in the exact same boat

AOSP-ish?
What're you guys slow? Lmao! Sry jk! They've already released the Galaxy View 2. Being that the last official update for GV1 is what? 2016; I believe? I don't think there is anything we can do for an official update from Samsung. *shrug* MAYBE try e-signing some type of online petition? Maybe Fakebook? Twatter? (*sp-Squatter) Instascram?
I would also think that Samsung would have to be linked or tagged to make it count. I'm going to take a VERY ROUGH guesstimate on what would actually grab SS Dev's attention: ~10-25k people?
I was actually thinking of the possibility of doing a "just enough" mod of the View2 stock firmware to get it working, they have relatively the same physical attributes and when you .mk the Android Package if conf files are all in order it should work for the most part. Now I'm aware this is STILL not an "official" update/firmware but it's the closest you'll get without them damn lazy devs at SS signing the apks themselves. *shrug*
Feedback?

GhoztXero said:
What're you guys slow? Lmao! Sry jk! They've already released the Galaxy View 2. Being that the last official update for GV1 is what? 2016; I believe? I don't think there is anything we can do for an official update from Samsung. *shrug* MAYBE try e-signing some type of online petition? Maybe Fakebook? Twatter? (*sp-Squatter) Instascram?
I would also think that Samsung would have to be linked or tagged to make it count. I'm going to take a VERY ROUGH guesstimate on what would actually grab SS Dev's attention: ~10-25k people?
I was actually thinking of the possibility of doing a "just enough" mod of the View2 stock firmware to get it working, they have relatively the same physical attributes and when you .mk the Android Package if conf files are all in order it should work for the most part. Now I'm aware this is STILL not an "official" update/firmware but it's the closest you'll get without them damn lazy devs at SS signing the apks themselves. *shrug*
Feedback?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
samsung is as worthless as their tvs! they update once maybe twice the software and then it is dead. because they are too busy trying to rip everyone off for the next $1000 phone or TV to care about keeping their stuff up to date. i have been sitting at 5.1 forever and the tablet lags so much now i have to disable 90% of the apps because they are memory hogs especially google apps. even updating the rom to 6.0 would make the tablet run smoother, but that will never happen.