Ok so i recently just updated froyo to gingerbread beacause i was tired of it and i was perm rooted and now im not im version 2.3.4 and i have still have s-off anyone please help me get rooted without downgrading?!
how did you "upgrade"?
What's so damn urgent? The world will end (again...) if you won't be rooted?
And if it's so damn urgent - how about spending 5 min on Google-searching to discover the answer without even opening a thread? Hint - there's "root for s-off" thread, more than one.
To root you have to downgrade.... Did you use pd15.
This is NOT urgent. Damn people
Sent from my HTC Glacier using xda app-developers app
rockstarar said:
To root you have to downgrade..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No he doesn't - if he used gfree when rooted originally (and stayed S-OFF as a result), he can root at any given moment without any complications.
Jack_R1 said:
No he doesn't - if he used gfree when rooted originally (and stayed S-OFF as a result), he can root at any given moment without any complications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep. He all he has to do is use fastboot to flash a recovery and flash a rooted ROM.
fastboot to flash a recovery and flash a rooted ROM.
Can someone help me fastboot recovery (what does that mean) and can someone give me a working android 2.3.4 mytouch 4g rooted rom many thanks!
-xXCyberSpiderXX
xXCyberSpiderXx said:
Can someone help me fastboot recovery (what does that mean) and can someone give me a working android 2.3.4 mytouch 4g rooted rom many thanks!
-xXCyberSpiderXX
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to learn to use Google. You got yourself into a situation you don't know how to get yourself out of because you decided not to do your research. Now you are refusing to research again. I will give you a link to a 5 minute adb/fastboot install, but you get to use Google to figure out how to use it.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=928370
Just one additional clarification:
fastboot won't help him, since he's on stock HBOOT that will refuse fastboot.
What he can do, is to look for "root for s-off" thread, that has the required PD15IMG and instructions to get ONLY the engineering HBOOT and custom recovery in place.
If he won't find it - means he doesn't need to be rooted in first place.
From the custom recovery he'll need to find and install Superuser/SuperSU ZIP. And it's described in the thread.
Jack_R1 said:
Just one additional clarification:
fastboot won't help him, since he's on stock HBOOT that will refuse fastboot.
What he can do, is to look for "root for s-off" thread, that has the required PD15IMG and instructions to get ONLY the engineering HBOOT and custom recovery in place.
If he won't find it - means he doesn't need to be rooted in first place.
From the custom recovery he'll need to find and install Superuser/SuperSU ZIP. And it's described in the thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hadn't been on the stock HBOOT in so long I had forgotten. Thanks, Jack. You're as helpful as ever.
Thank you estallings15 for all your hard work i was looking it up and then i decided to fastboot back to 2.2.1 and i did perma root on it and then when i downgraded i didnt lose s-off which is weird so im going to install this custom 2.3.4 rooted rom many thanks!
link to rooted rom if anybody wants http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1264704
-xXCyberSpiderXx
Plus i forgot im going to flash the rom through clockworkmod recovery
You must have gotten S-Off with gfree. A PD15IMG.zip flash won't turn the security flag on when you use gfree.
Also, Jack_R1 was very helpful as well. He simply wants people to do their research and know how to solve a problem before they run into it, as do I.
Hopefully, now you know what happened, why, and how to fix it in the future if you or another person get into the same situation or a similar one. Good luck, and enjoy your phone!
i did use gfree but i just updated through hboot im going to see if i have root now,
xXCyberSpiderXx said:
i did use gfree but i just updated through hboot im going to see if i have root now,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Through HBOOT or recovery?
I was gonna get in earlier because i had this same issue but since jack and estallings were helping you, i didn't. Here is what you do.
-Go to the downgrade guide, download fr3vo
-Use the guide to achieve temp root, no need to downgrade android version or anything, just get temproot
-The above step should give you permaroot
-Get Rom Manager and flash clockwork
-There ya go
ok so i was going to flash the rooted rom through recovery but it didnt work so i had no choice but to do hboot im so lost and it didnt even root me please help. ive been researching for 12 hours straight
THEindian said:
I was gonna get in earlier because i had this same issue but since jack and estallings were helping you, i didn't. Here is what you do.
-Go to the downgrade guide, download fr3vo
-Use the guide to achieve temp root, no need to downgrade android version or anything, just get temproot
-The above step should give you permaroot
-Get Rom Manager and flash clockwork
-There ya go
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok thanks and all but after i flash clockwork recovery then what.... and if ur saying then flash the rooted rom i cant because it says you NEED perma root but all i have is s-off (through gfree method) ok ok so once i temproot it should give me perm root?
but if i have perm root what would i need to flash clockwork (what im saying is why would i need to flash a rooted 2.3.4 rom)
xXCyberSpiderXx said:
ok thanks and all but after i flash clockwork recovery then what.... and if ur saying then flash the rooted rom i cant because it says you NEED perma root but all i have is s-off (through gfree method) ok ok so once i temproot it should give me perm root?
but if i have perm root what would i need to flash clockwork (what im saying is why would i need to flash a rooted 2.3.4 rom)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What i told you should give you permaroot.
OK so I just temp rooted on the downgrading page I followed all the steps to temp root I got temp root but no perm root help??
Sent from my HTC Glacier using xda app-developers app
Related
I rooted my phone through visionary r11 and then I did the Ultimate root and permenant s=off!
There are two ways of unrooting, that i see on the forum.
I don't know if i followed the gfree method or not lol. please help , i did use gfree for permanant radio s=off though :S.
LimitsX said:
I rooted my phone through visionary r11 and then I did the Ultimate root and permenant s=off!
There are two ways of unrooting, that i see on the forum.
I don't know if i followed the gfree method or not lol. please help , i did use gfree for permanant radio s=off though :S.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Id guess that you probably need to do the gfree unroot method, then.
ok, also, I want to completely remove Clockwork Recovery Mod 2.5.1.2 as well. I am selling my phone, so I need to bring it back to stock rom and its features..
How do I remove clockwork recovery mod on this phone? Should I flash the stock rom and nandroid before removing it?
Thanks!
hi!
i found a shop in my area (slo) to unlock my phone. but i'm a bit confused. if i get my phone s-off-ed, as i understand this means full system root, which should men i should be somehow able to flash clockwork mod and then custom roms. this should be done by downgrading to 2.1 and hboot 0.8x.
i found a video tutorial on downgrading here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=981765
and my question: shouldn't i be able to flash clockworkmod directly (without downgrading), since i will have my phone fully unlocked? if possible, how?
I think the best is after the s-off, install and older RUU, then use unrevoked 3.14 thats the most easy and i think the safest way
Most efficient way
hans3103 said:
I think the best is after the s-off, install and older RUU, then use unrevoked 3.14 thats the most easy and i think the safest way
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
May I suggest more efficient way: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12188132&postcount=15
Can you please tell me which shop. I'm from Slovenia too... Maybe you just see my private message.
Tnx
<edit>
never mind got me a xtc clip and found out the hard way
using the search function has help me more than making noob questions, sorry
dailor said:
May I suggest more efficient way: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12188132&postcount=15
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi
I have rooted wildfire with s-off (xtc clip) and Hboot - 1.01.0002 . I tried the above method but fastboot wont detect the zip file and says not found. I am unable to install clockworkmod using rom manager, whenever i do, i get the red traingle of death.
What to do now ?
Please help...
u donot need to downgrade with an RUU. and further doing so may make ur phone S-ON again (im not sure about this).
u have a simple process.
u can flash any "recovery image" via fastboot mode.
and that's all, after doing that u can flash any rooted custom rom from that recovery.
getting to S-OFF is an expensive task yaar (as far as now). try to keep it in S-OFF permanently.
dailor said:
May I suggest more efficient way: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=12188132&postcount=15
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
rishabhd said:
Hi
I have rooted wildfire with s-off (xtc clip) and Hboot - 1.01.0002 . I tried the above method but fastboot wont detect the zip file and says not found. I am unable to install clockworkmod using rom manager, whenever i do, i get the red traingle of death.
What to do now ?
Please help...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
have u done the "PC49IMG.zip" process with the file in the above link. it is the process for flashing clockwork mod "recovery image". once this is successful, then u can install any custom roms from the CWM recovery.
note: donot do the PC49IMG.ZIP process with any outside file (excluding the link above). if u do that, u might loose the S-OFF
Alternatively, u can flash other recoveries also (i dont know any others)
I got it eventually, I downgraded using ruu rom to hboot. 80 rooted it again and now have 2.3.3 over it
Thanks anyways ..
Sent from my HTC Wildfire using XDA App
bharatgaddameedi said:
have u done the "PC49IMG.zip" process with the file in the above link. it is the process for flashing clockwork mod "recovery image". once this is successful, then u can install any custom roms from the CWM recovery.
note: donot do the PC49IMG.ZIP process with any outside file (excluding the link above). if u do that, u might loose the S-OFF
Alternatively, u can flash other recoveries also (i dont know any others)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How will you lose s-off by flashing a PC49IMG.zip? XTC Clip wipes the secuflag in radio NVRAM, no way of getting it back via a normal update.
edit: never mind........
edit: never mind...........................
[ROM]RUU_Speedy_S_Sprint_WWE_2.76.651.4_Radio_1.08.00.0 506_NV_SPCS_1.88
is this rom rootable? i cant seem to get visionary to root this rom.
i am unable to gain s-off with .98.0001 boot image. is there anyway to revert back to the orginal hboot?
rchris494 said:
[ROM]RUU_Speedy_S_Sprint_WWE_2.76.651.4_Radio_1.08.00.0 506_NV_SPCS_1.88
is this rom rootable? i cant seem to get visionary to root this rom.
i am unable to gain s-off with .98.0001 boot image. is there anyway to revert back to the orginal hboot?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
id say hit the irc for a faster response from someone who knows and ask them if you can use newkidds 1 zip to get your old hboot back, but keep in mind newkidd now has like 3 ruu files the old one with the .93 hboot and one with the .98 hboot and one with none I think
Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk
flashed .exe
I flashed the .exe so i dont have access to clockwork recovery any more, To flash zip files. Probably a big mistake until a perm root solution is found.
rchris494 said:
I flashed the .exe so i dont have access to clockwork recovery any more, To flash zip files. Probably a big mistake until a perm root solution is found.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You won't be flashing an exe with the ruu program on your computer, it should just return you to 100% old stock
Sent from my MiuiSpeedy
i just need.
I just need to find one that will revert me back to stock with .93 hboot so i can start over from scratch. The v1 version will not allow this due to being the wrong hboot when it does itks check...
Please help, I'm trying to root so I can run netflix on mt4g, almost there (i think)
Tysvm2: the folks that wrote: the true root article @
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=858996
I am trying to flash a custom recovery and rom (hoping to do: panache or CM7 and twrp recovery
(PG86IMG.zip) My end goal is to run netflix app on htc glacier)
I have succeeded in setting up ADB/SDK drivers, etc.
On hboot i see: S=off
I am having a PROBLEM with TRUE ROOT gfree method
At step 12. It says:
"If this is the first time you have rooted your device you will need to run visionary again (temproot w/set system r/w after root checked and then attempt permroot) to make root privileges permanent and then reboot again. Now "su" should work properly for you."
I've run into a problem :
I restarted in hboot and I see s=off but when I try to open terminal:
It reads:
$ export PATH=/data/local/bin:$PATH
$su
PERMISSION DENIED
I tried to run temproot and permroot on visionary + R14 to "seal the deal" & move onto install of the engineering bootloader
It appears I am stuck in between temproot and perm root won't stick for some reason ...
FYI: all sorts of apps force closed immediately after reboot after I ran the reboot it says s=off and has bootloader version 0.86.0000
I just did:
1. a factory reset from hboot
2. Reinstalled visionary + R14
3. And ... astro file manager, terminal emulator app and easy installer, etc
4. i have all the files that the TRUE ROOT thread reccomended but terminal emulator says permission denied when I type: su
PERMISSION DENIED
It looks to me like visionary Is not properly establishing temp root or perm root after s=off.
Suggestions please.
thank you,
CP
HTC GLACIER
s=off
bootloader version 0.86.0000
also: HTC DREAM aka Tmobile g1 rooted with cyanogen old school
Ps: I'm new to the forum culture and I want to be sure to be respectful and post properly; if this is not a proper place for this kind of question please redirect me patiently
Try the older verson of Visionary. R11 I believe. This has come up before and it has worked for other people.
If you have already received the OTA, use Gingerbreak or fre3vo method for temp root instead of Visionary.
I suggest to flash engineering bootloader ASAP, it'll save you the question next time, by allowing to flash custom recovery (thus enabling root by flashing any su.zip package) at any time, independent of the ROM.
I got a replacement phone, and this is what I had to do...
1. Install Visionary r14 and Terminal Emulator
2. Download gfree file and move to phone
3. Temproot (with r/w switched on), then su on TE, then run gfree*
4. Reboot and validate S=OFF
5. Temproot again (with r/w switched on), then click on Permroot
Hi Thank you for your reply, I tried visionary r11 but when I installed it would not run (perhaps i installed the wrong one) my easy install app read it as visionary 1.0 is that the same as R11?
Thank you for your reply but i tried this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1030119
from Shaddy-Z.(10th April 2011, 01:35 PM) <- thank you Shaddy
"
http://forum.xda-developers.com/show...&postcount=899
It's the last download link."
But my easy install app calls it visionary 1.0 (is that the same as R11?) And it did not work ... it won't even open up, can you tell me do you have any experience with:
Jack R_1's suggestion: "If you have already received the OTA, use Gingerbreak or fre3vo method for temp root instead of Visionary."
What are benefits of gingerbreak vs. fre3vo? I just want to be sure to be careful so as to not brick my baby.
If you already have Radio S-OFF, have you tried flashing custom recovery via fastboot flash recovery? Or does your bootloader version not allow that?
Also try this post:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=15943010&postcount=6
I only know about gingerbreak not the other one, it will use a new exploit to gain perm root under gingerbread. But if you have the new OTA that's gingerbread 2.3.4 I think it won't work. Others have upgraded to the new OTA and can't root again, why? Since a new Radio and I think SPL are in this new OTA. And HTC has used a new security method to prevent such things as rooting.
Check this thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1174344
Flash the .85 engineering bootloader with adb and then clockworkmod from fastboot. You then can use the rooted nandroid backup in rom Bible (if you want to stay stock). Once you do that happy flashing. If you need any help pm me
Sent from my Google Nexus 12! yup I'm from the future
mark manning said:
Flash the .85 engineering bootloader with adb and then clockworkmod from fastboot. You then can use the rooted nandroid backup in rom Bible (if you want to stay stock). Once you do that happy flashing. If you need any help pm me
Sent from my Google Nexus 12! yup I'm from the future
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you sure this holds true for users with newest OTA?
Ace42 said:
Are you sure this holds true for users with newest OTA?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As long as he has s-off it will.
Sent from my Google Nexus 12! yup I'm from the future
Ace42 said:
Are you sure this holds true for users with newest OTA?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wait, he can't gain even temp root huh. NM your sol until a dev figures out how to root the gingerbread rom.
Its kind of a long shot. Since you have s-off you can try using the PD15IMG.ZIP from hboot and root the froyo rom. Not sure if that will work or not
Sent from my Google Nexus 12! yup I'm from the future
mark manning said:
Wait, he can't gain even temp root huh. NM your sol until a dev figures out how to root the gingerbread rom.
Its kind of a long shot. Since you have s-off you can try using the PD15IMG.ZIP from hboot and root the froyo rom. Not sure if that will work or not
Sent from my Google Nexus 12! yup I'm from the future
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm using MIUI, I was asking cause I have a friend who's stuck on the new OTA since they accidentally flashed the non-rooted version of the OTA, probably since all of them had the same title and he didn't read...
Okay let me ask this: What about packing an unsigned PD15IMG.zip with ENG HBOOT and/or ClockworkMod Recovery and nothing else inside it? If you have Radio S-OFF, this image should be accepted by the bootloader and give you a route back to root.
I don't know if such a .zip has been made yet for the MT4G but it's not impossible. It's been done for the S-OFF Sensation:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1122053
See "ENG Hboot" - there is a PG58IMG.zip file there, and there is another under "Here is the download link to recovery".
Again this thread has nothing to do with the MT4G but it's the same principle.
So... if there is anyone out there who knows how to pack a PD15IMG.zip for a Radio S-OFF device, please speak up and help out the OP!
Interesting, I think all you need to do is replace the file inside of zip but not totally sure.
Sent from my Google Nexus 12! yup I'm from the future
What I don't know is if the zip has to be constructed in some particular way to be accepted as valid, even with S-OFF. But yeah, there should be a way to flash CWM to the S-OFF bootloader.
Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk
Thank you but I don't know what that is exactly.
Ru suggesting I restart holding down on volume and select recovery from hboot?
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
crouchingpossum said:
Thank you but I don't know what that is exactly.
Ru suggesting I restart holding down on volume and select recovery from hboot?
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No not yet, gonna try to figure something out for you tomorrow. Be patient please
Sent from my Google Nexus 12! yup I'm from the future
Are you on 2.2.1 or are you on 2.3.?
Okay I'm just poking around blindly in the dark here... I'm not a developer, just a script tinkerer... but if you're brave enough...
I grabbed one of the PD15IMG.zip radio files from the Dev section just to obtain the proper android-info.txt file. Then I created a new zip containing only:
- android-info.txt
- CWM version 3.0.2.4 for Glacier, in .img format, renamed to recovery.img
I've attached it here. Rename it to PD15IMG.zip, put it on the root of your SD, and try booting into HBOOT and see if it prompts you to install the zip. If so, does it succeed?
If yes, then try booting into recovery. Do you get Clockwork?
If it does not succeed, please report any error messages.
I highly doubt this can damage your phone because your ROM is still bootable and your bootloader still works, so the worst you could get is a bad recovery that you have to fix up. But I hold no liability for anything that gets borked
i have S-off but i have no root or recovery! please someone help! i need to get this phone back to stock!
Run PD15IMG.zip. It will flash the stock recovery and set everything back to stock. You should be good to send your phone back after that.
When I had that problem flashing the pd15.img did not turn S-on.
If your still on 2.2.1 you need to temp root with visionary and run gfree to turn S back on.
If your on gingerbread (2.3) you'll have to downgrade back to 2.2.1 before you can run gfree.
After turning S-on reflash a stock pd15.img and you'll be back to stock.
For more info read the rooting guide in the sticky section. I think its the one by grankin01. Its the one that says check this out even if your rooted.
Sent from my Glacier using XDA
SenorBlanco said:
When I had that problem flashing the pd15.img did not turn S-on.
If your still on 2.2.1 you need to temp root with visionary and run gfree to turn S back on.
If your on gingerbread (2.3) you'll have to downgrade back to 2.2.1 before you can run gfree.
After turning S-on reflash a stock pd15.img and you'll be back to stock.
For more info read the rooting guide in the sticky section. I think its the one by grankin01. Its the one that says check this out even if your rooted.
Sent from my Glacier using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He needs to use grankin01's guide to get S-ON once he get back to froyo and then reflash froyo PD15IMG to restore everything back to stock.
Because he used gfree to acquire S-OFF, just flashing the PD15IMG.zip won't turn the security flag on. It does for root.sh, but not gfree.
Sent from my Glacier using XDA
I thought I remembered that the guide said how you could use gfree to turn S-on as well.
Sent from my Glacier using XDA
the guide says it works for pre OTA update. does that mean i dont have to go back to 2.2.1?
gcashiel said:
the guide says it works for pre OTA update. does that mean i dont have to go back to 2.2.1?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes.
invasion2 said:
Yes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
okay so how do i put back the stock hboot and turn s-on and unroot my phone? the whole guide is very confusing to me
gcashiel said:
okay so how do i put back the stock hboot and turn s-on and unroot my phone? the whole guide is very confusing to me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let's get things straight. You are on 2.3.4, Engineering hboot, S-OFF, no root, and no recovery?
yes i am on 2.3.4 and i now have root and cwm recovery. and i have s-off
gcashiel said:
yes i am on 2.3.4 and i now have root and cwm recovery. and i have s-off
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOLWUT. 2.3.4 stock? With S-OFF and root and CWM?
invasion2 said:
LOLWUT. 2.3.4 stock? With S-OFF and root and CWM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes. or what do you mean?
gcashiel said:
yes. or what do you mean?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm confused...gcashiel, you are rooted, CWM recovery, S-Off right? But all of this is on 2.3.4 STOCK T-mobile OTA ROM, correcT?
invasion2 said:
I'm confused...gcashiel, you are rooted, CWM recovery, S-Off right? But all of this is on 2.3.4 STOCK T-mobile OTA ROM, correcT?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes correct. i have the stock rom with root privileges.
i am trying to get EVERYTHING back to stock, hboot ( i have the hboot 0.85.2007), Security back to on, and the original 2.3.4 rom
I'll "translate":
There is no T-Mobile "stock" 2.3.4 with root. It's a pre-rooted 2.3.4, that you flashed from CWM recovery. The stock is not rootable, and should have been downgraded at some point to achieve S-OFF.
In any case, if S-OFF was achieved through gfree, you need to rerun gfree to return to S-ON. Judging by this thread, it's going to be way over your head.
So, my suggestion:
1) Go to the downgrading thread (search, don't ask), run "misc_partition" command on your current ROM.
2) Copy PD15IMG.ZIP of 2.3.4 to SD card and proceed with returning to stock. You'll most likely stay S-OFF, but otherwise have a completely stock ROM.
If it sounds too complicated - wait for someone to explain it better, or start reading to understand, what to do. Everything you need is in the guides, you just need to understand what things do and how to use it for your case.
Jack_R1 said:
I'll "translate":
There is no T-Mobile "stock" 2.3.4 with root. It's a pre-rooted 2.3.4, that you flashed from CWM recovery. The stock is not rootable, and should have been downgraded at some point to achieve S-OFF.
In any case, if S-OFF was achieved through gfree, you need to rerun gfree to return to S-ON. Judging by this thread, it's going to be way over your head.
So, my suggestion:
1) Go to the downgrading thread (search, don't ask), run "misc_partition" command on your current ROM.
2) Copy PD15IMG.ZIP of 2.3.4 to SD card and proceed with returning to stock. You'll most likely stay S-OFF, but otherwise have a completely stock ROM.
If it sounds too complicated - wait for someone to explain it better, or start reading to understand, what to do. Everything you need is in the guides, you just need to understand what things do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
okay i think i understand but what if i do the PD15IMG with the stock rom to get it unrooted will that be enough to send it back?
People on the forum reported that it was enough. I have no first-hand experience.
okay then but will it work with the PD15IMG that has the GB update on it?
can you help with this step please?
5. Now run the "dd if=/where/your/part7backup-numbers.bin of=/dev/block/mmcblk0p7" and it should show the output:
xxxx bytes in
xxxxbytes out
xxxxxxxxxx copied in blah blah blah
gcashiel said:
can you help with this step please?
5. Now run the "dd if=/where/your/part7backup-numbers.bin of=/dev/block/mmcblk0p7" and it should show the output:
xxxx bytes in
xxxxbytes out
xxxxxxxxxx copied in blah blah blah
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
?????
What do you not get? Locate the part7backup files on your sd card and add the path to the command sample. If you don't have them, follow this guide.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=16189365