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Most reasonable people viewing the GNote pentile screen say it is bright, has high contrast, deep blacks and a sharp image.
It is a 24bit Millions of colours screen.
So why the hatred of pentile?
It's got me f#^ked.
Maybe it is due to old arguments that date back years.
There is an old controversy going around between pentile and LCD proponents, which is apples vs oranges because there are pentile lcd's and rgb oled's.
The controversy is, that pentiles use less sub-pixels and therefore should be rated as such in lower pixel density.
This ignores how vision works, which essentially is an illusion.
To disagree is to dismiss basic Buddhism and modern psychology as well as film theory on visual perception.
At the level of pixels, the illusion of vision breaks down for lcd as well as pentile screens.
So while looking at a pentile screen with a magnifying glass can be scary, it is the same for rgb's.
So why did Samsung go back to using the pentile matrix instead of RGB for the Note?
Only guessing, but some of the advantages of pentile are;
Cuts power consumption in half for equivalent brightness, or
Doubles screen brightness for equivalent power
Achieves higher resolution
Provides flexible settings for color control and power savings
Increases cost savings potential and yield for manufacturers
Accelerates adoption of next-generation devices
Makes text easier to read
nuvoyance.com
Contrary to the hype, pentiles allow higher resolution, all the while using much less power. Talk about a no-brainer.
One of the limitations of the pentile is a cross hatched pattern seen on the edge of some images, like a border between red and white, when seen up close(with a magnifying glass). This is so at lower pixel densities but "for higher pixel densities you stand to gain from PenTile" ; is the PenTile matrix bad for you?
More technical info:
PenTile blog
OLED-A
Achieve higher resolution - yes, but already given a 1280 x800 resolution, would you prefer it to be pentile or RGB?
No one is complaining about pentile can give higher resolution, its not like we want 800x480 RGB over 1280x800 pentile. But already given the phone is 1280x800, people would rather it be super amoled plus instead of pentile super amoled.
While pentile consumes less power, super amoled screens sucks power like crazy. It is a fact. But that said, i still think the screen is gorgreous. however if you let me choose - RGB over pentile any day.
GALAXYNOTE said:
Achieve higher resolution - yes, but already given a 1280 x800 resolution, would you prefer it to be pentile or RGB?
No one is complaining about pentile can give higher resolution, its not like we want 800x480 RGB over 1280x800 pentile. But already given the phone is 1280x800, people would rather it be super amoled plus instead of pentile super amoled.
While pentile consumes less power, super amoled screens sucks power like crazy. It is a fact. But that said, i still think the screen is gorgreous. however if you let me choose - RGB over pentile any day.
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Given a 1280 x800 resolution, I would prefer it to be pentile as it will look better.
Perceived resolution.
Pentile consumes 50% less power than RGB.
Xaddict said:
Pentile consumes 50% less power than RGB.
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Click to collapse
Well if you are not talking about super amoled, then yes a pentile layout consumes theoretically 33% less power.
If you are strictly comparing pentile RGBG/RGBW to RGB, pentile looks like sh*t i gotta say. At least my atrix did.
Pentile also ages better than sRGB amoled, because the lifespan of the organic amoled subpixels are different from color to color. The pentile ages better because there are simply more subpixels of the color which has the lowest lifespan.
epicfailguy2 said:
Pentile also ages better than sRGB amoled, because the lifespan of the organic amoled subpixels are different from color to color. The pentile ages better because there are simply more subpixels of the color which has the lowest lifespan.
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The color which has the lowest lifespan is blue, from what i can recall)
How does RGBG or RGBW have more blue subpixels than RGB? (I am only asking just wanted to know.)
GALAXYNOTE said:
Well if you are not talking about super amoled, then yes a pentile layout consumes theoretically 33% less power.
If you are strictly comparing pentile RGBG/RGBW to RGB, pentile looks like sh*t i gotta say. At least my atrix did.
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Well, comparing the Note screen(pentile) to the SGII screen(rgb), opinions vary, but the Note screen looks better to me.
GALAXYNOTE said:
The color which has the lowest lifespan is blue, from what i can recall)
How does RGBG or RGBW have more blue subpixels than RGB? (I am only asking just wanted to know.)
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More green than blue.
Xaddict said:
Well, comparing the Note screen(pentile) to the SGII screen(rgb), opinions vary, but the Note screen looks better to me.
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Click to collapse
Actually I gotta agree with you on that. My gf had a SGS II and that blue tint bugged the hell outta me. I dont know what they done to it, but i dont think it was a problem with it being RGB.
Pentile suffers from strange color tints on whites.
Hard time rendering shades of gray.
Strange artifacts in low-light conditions.
Ofc all noise is camouflaged by the high resolution.
I would trade for the S-LCD screen of the Rezound any-day,
the only problem with that screen is that it could use abit deeper blacks.
MartijnMM said:
Pentile suffers from strange color tints on whites.
Hard time rendering shades of gray.
Strange artifacts in low-light conditions.
Ofc all noise is camouflaged by the high resolution.
I would trade for the SRGB screen of the Rezound any-day,
the only problem with that screen is that it could use abit deeper blacks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this is related to OLED and not Pentile.
The Note screen does seem bluish to me when seen from an angle.
I don't see problems with grey on the Note.
I have view gradients to test the 24bit resolution and if viewed in a 24bit app, 24bit images look fine, otherwise not, but this is not an intrinsic fault of the Note's screen, only of the low res images or apps.
I'm not going to go back through and quote people, but some people said some things that are downright incorrect. Pentile does NOT "increase the resolution." It does exactly the opposite, decreasing it. Pentile has half the red subpixels and half the blue subpixels that RGB does; that means overall, pentile only has 2/3 the pixel elements that an RGB screen has. You can't display more information with fewer pixel elements.
The unpleasant artifacts I notice on pentile screens are small text, lines, graphics, appear fuzzy and sometimes colored on the edges, and when I look at solid colors that use red and blue (i.e.just about everything but solid green) especially white, I get this screen door effect. It's almost like there's a bit of checkerboard pattern to the solid color rather than being uniform. Hold your phone closer to your face and look at a solid white area, especially try to find a solid white area that is next to a solid green area with the brightness turned up all the way and you'll really see what I'm talking about.
Pentile doesn't necessarily use less energy than RGB. There are fewer subpixels, but they're twice as large and put out twice as much light. Energy in = light out. So in theory, the energy should be exactly the same. Perhaps they've found some way to do pentile a little more efficiently on some phones, but it's not an overall rule at all.
Pentile is used because it allows them to make the blues twice as big. Since they had a problem with short life span on those, making them twice as big made them hardier, longer lived, and higher yields in the manufacturing process. That's the ONLY reason for pentile. You could say this allows manufacturers to build higher resolution displays than they otherwise would be capable of (since they're cheating and using larger blues than an RGB would have) but a 1280x800 pentile is NOT "higher resolution" than a 1280x800 RGB! According to definition, they're the exact same resolution, but in reality, the pentile is lower in resolution.
RGB is ALWAYS better than pentile as far as image quality. The reason the Note's screen looks better than the SGSII, even though the SGSII had RGB, is simply because it has a much higher resolution. The benefits from that outweigh the negatives of pentile.
Here's a pic I put together showing the differences, even though you can find the same thing elsewhere on the net:
Thanks for summing that up =) Can we go on now and accept Sammy's gone cheap on us?
I really am not too bothered about what screen the phone uses as long as it looks good, i do think to me it looks fantastic. Lovely and bright and it displays a fantastic picture. If people dont like a particular screen a phone uses then they have the choice not to buy it. Some posts in here are very informative so in that respect thanks. However people that ***** about the phones screen (not necessarily in this thread) have the choice to return it and wait for the screen of their choice to come out.
Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda premium
maxh said:
The unpleasant artifacts I notice .......
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The general public isn't noticing these artifacts, which makes me think they made the right decision on this one. After all, the General public would definitely notice a higher battery drain. I won't pretend to know the technical details about why Pentile battery usage < RGB.
maxh said:
Hold your phone closer to your face and look at a solid white area .... with the brightness turned up all the way and you'll really see what I'm talking about.
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Probably - but it's not interesting if that's not how you generally use your phone.
I wish I could find the interview, but they interviewed a samsung executive who was quite candid about the whole thing. He said quite clearly that Amoled + is sharper than Pentile. But he said that they went Pentile because in terms of sharpness, Amoled is good enough (i.e. still fantastic) - production is better (i.e. it's cheaper to make) and uses less battery power.
And they are correct. I've watched/read many many reviews of the GNote. For the most part, they all rave about the Screen, complain about the price, and are happy with the battery.
It would have been a mistake to put AMOLED+ in, and have the reviews (still) rave about the Screen, be even more turned off by the price, and only be 'okay' with the battery. (perhaps even complaining about it, saying 'Luckily it has a huge battery, because otherwise you'd be toast)
The GNote is already a niche device - you want to widen its appeal as much as possible.
- Frank
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with my Note, including the screen. Search my posts and you'll see me say that several times. I'm a long time pentile hater from the day I first powered on my nexus one and started wondering what was wrong with the screen. Yet I've said several times that the Note's so awesome and the screen otherwise so beautiful that I'm able to overlook the pentile layout.
However I'm not going to read people claiming that pentile is better than RGB without speaking up, because it's not.
maxh said:
Pentile does NOT "increase the resolution." It does exactly the opposite, decreasing it
...
Pentile is used because it allows them to make the blues twice as big. Since they had a problem with short life span on those, making them twice as big made them hardier, longer lived, and higher yields in the manufacturing process. That's the ONLY reason for pentile. You could say this allows manufacturers to build higher resolution displays than they otherwise would be capable of (since they're cheating and using larger blues than an RGB would have) but a 1280x800 pentile is NOT "higher resolution" than a 1280x800 RGB! According to definition, they're the exact same resolution, but in reality, the pentile is lower in resolution.
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Click to collapse
(This isn't meant to be a hostile response, I apologise if it comes across that way - it's absolutely not intended)
It doesn't directly, no. But you then go on to point out exactly how it enables much higher pixel densities - in an RGB layout each sub-pixel is the same size, so they need to make the blue sub-pixel at a viable size (as you said,) then make green and red sub-pixels that are the same size again.
On a PenTile screen, they can print the blue sub-pixel at it's required size, but the green component can be much smaller - and as a result, you can fit more pixels into the same space. If you compare the Galaxy Nexus's 316ppi PenTile screen to the S2's 216ppi RGB screen, you'll find that the blue and red sub-pixels are actually of a comparable width.
Sure RGBRGB is technically superior to RGBG in terms of image quality, but after a certain pixel-density:distance ratio, it just doesn't matter anymore, and allows for a greater pixel density regardless of display technology.
As a point of curiosity (I know you gave this first point, I'm just elaborating,) resolution is a measure of the number of horizontal or vertical alternating black and white lines a display can produce while maintaining a certain level of contrast. PenTile screens actually are their advertised resolution. However low-density RGBG will lose some detail in reds, but greens are still fine, and the human eye can't see enough detail in blue to tell a difference there. That's in general though - obviously there are biological differences in people, and that is where the legitimate complaints come from - not from holding a phone 3 inches from your face.
As for whether RGB or PenTile is better - consider that the Galaxy Nexus's 4.65" screen could fit either 1280x720 RG/BG pixels, or 960x540 RGB pixels, and it's too dense to be able to tell the difference in sub-pixel arrangement. I think PenTile actually is better in that case.
small dots and big dots
okay so everyone is forgetting that not so long ago printers used to print using
only one size dot of ink. well the picture from same size dots looked grainy. so the print people came up with different size dots of ink to make the pictures look
amazing. i look at the pentile displays the same way. in comparison the
screens on rgb screens look blocky to me and those on pentile look smoother and
less grainy. iphone just shrank the dots to where the human eye can't detect
them. but i believe to acheive the same thing on a larger screen isn't very
pratical. that's where different size pixels will make images appear smooth.
Some great info that dispels some pentile myths can be found here - http://pentileblog.com/uncategorized/pentile-for-720-hd-oled-smartphones/.
Put simply, a lot of the criticisms of pentile displays are only relevant to particular implementations, and not necessarily to the technology.
Regards,
Dave
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk
I looked at the Note screen under a loupe and I could see a serrated edge along the top of white text on a black bacground. If I looked at it normally I couldn't tell. In this case the pentile doesn't bug me.
What DOES bug me is the low color depth that the Note displays. It is odd as it is inconsistant. If I look at photos it is fine. Some apps though look like the color depth is drastically reduced. Two apps to test are Angry birds Rio, and Google Sky. In AB look at the sky and clouds on the title screen, the shades all blend smooth on other devices (checked on an Infuse). On the Note there is severe color loss and much banding evident. Same with google sky There are these sky gradients, smoother on other OLED screens like the Infuse, much more bandy on the Note. I don't know why on some things like photos the note looks fine, but in many apps color loss and banding is evident. Maybe it is some weird incompatibility of the apps? Maybe they mis-read the screen capability and drop to low color mode? I don't know but it is weird and bothers me much more than the pentile matrix.
is it good? I'm only used to OLED.
The IPS display on the Nexus 7 looks good from what I've seen. IPS is known for decent viewing angles.
it depends on the OLED screen you're comparing it to.
the galaxy s2 has super amoled plus, which has a full rgb subpixel matrix, but only a resolution of 800x480. the full rgb subpixel matrix makes everything look clearer and sharper.
the galaxy nexus, galaxy note, and galaxy s3 use a pentile subpixel matrix. its something like rgbg, which makes the display look greenish. its not as sharp as a full rgb matrix, and the colours arent as vivid due to the lack of subpixels (ends up being around 66% less subpixels).
however, the main advantage of the oled displays is that their pixels can be turned off. this means that in movies and games, you have a 'true' black, whereas in led backlit LCD displays (unless it has full led backlight with local dimming) blacks will always seem greyish. oled displays also tend to oversaturate the colours. the other advantage is that since black means the led/pixel is turned off, it means that using a black wallpaper on oled displays will reduce power consumption and improve battery life.
the nexus 7 uses an IPS panel. the general idea is that all the pixels are aligned/parallel, which leads to the image looking sharper compared to TFT and TN panels. the nexus 7 also has a full RGB subpixel matrix which makes it much sharper, and in combination with the IPS setup, it leads to more accurate colour representation. however, as it is not an oled display and it does not have local dimming with a full led backlight (having such a setup would make the device much thicker), it is unable to render 'true' black and as a result, blacks end up looking a bit grey.
cant really say much about which one is better as it is a personal preference thing. some like the oversaturated colours of OLED as it seems more vivid, whereas others prefer the accuracy of IPS panels and sharpness.
at the moment, i own a galaxy note with a pentile amoled display, and i use a 37inch Panasonic TV for my PC display, which uses an IPS panel. i'd say both are pretty good in their own way, but i prefer the IPS panel simply because of the full set of subpixels and colour accuracy.
Waiting to see how hard I rage about the non-black backgrounds.
anandtech measured nexus 7 black at 0.37 nits, whatever that means.
as souai said, it really depends.
generally OLEDs have much better colors and look better, IPS is much better in sunlight though because it's brighter and has insanely good viewing angles up to 178 degrees.
I have a first gen asus transformer which uses and IPS screen and though it's not as impressive color/quality wise as the Galaxy S III and even my Galaxy Nexus (sometimes) it's still excellent and i've never been bothered by it.
and given the fact that the N7 has such a high pixel density it should look great, and the reviews have backed this up.
This isn't apples to apples here but comparing the gnex to the one x I say I definitely prefer the IPS display. Now this is the best version possible probably of its type but I'm happy for the n7 to get an IPS screen. Almost all reviews have talked about how nice it is, only complaint being a little warm and a little dim compared to some other IPS displays. I like my oled screen but since good IPS high res screens have come out, they seem to be superior to oled at the moment. Oled uses up lots of battery in anything other than very black biased setups. IPS has that slight gray to the black but most people are used to their computer monitors and TVs having this as well. I think we won't have to sorry as much about color uniformity as much either with IPS.
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nvm
thanks for the replies. it's helpful.
We've been sent some info claimed to be from meetings with Samsung on its AMOLED display developments. The source says they've been told that Samsung is working on a project for a so-called ClorOLED display to be ready for mass yields in June 2013.
The specs are nothing short of stunning, if this whole tip is true, since the pixel density has allegedly been disclosed by Samsung to be 358ppi in a 5.8" unit, made with an RGB matrix, instead of the PenTile arrangement Samsung's been using for its HD Super AMOLED screens until the Note II.
The claimed resolution, however, doesn't really add up to that pixel density. The source says the display is to sport the rather unconventional 1024x980 pixels, which, coupled with the reported 5.8" size, adds up to 244ppi. Here comes the kicker, though - out tipster claims that the RGB matrix of this project, codenamed ClorOLED, will be done with no less than 16 subpixels, so make of it what you will. The Super AMOLED Plus in the Galaxy S II is listed by Samsung as having 12 subpixels in ads, so we'd have a third more here.
With the Note II and its unconventional matrix arrangement Samsung showed that it is not afraid to experiment with the subpixels count, shape and position of its AMOLED displays, and produced its brightest and most discernible HD AMOLED screen so far, so an alternative arrangement is at least plausible.
Furthermore, we heard recently that Samsung has managed to achieve 350ppi+ pixel densities with its current conventional AMOLED production technology, called Fine Metal Mask (FMM), so that might be the production process for the ClorOLED brand in the end.
This crazy amount of subpixels would mean much greater image clarity and definition, so we are all for ClorOLED, as utopian as it may sound. Mass June 2013 production sounds just about right for a Galaxy Note III release, so we will keep an eye for any rumors on that front.
Source : Phonearena
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Samsung-might-be-prepping-a-5.8-ClorOLED-display-with-16-subpixels-RGB-matrix-can-we-say-Note-III_id34165
What does it mean by it has 16 subpixels? And the galaxy s2 has 12 subpixels?
It obvious isn't subpixels per pixel. The only thing that makes sense is that it will have 16 subpixels per 4 pixels, as the gs2 has 3 subpixels per pixel, so 3*4=12. So does that mean the ClorOLED display has 4 subpixels per pixel? 4*4=16.
That's just a guess. It has 16 subpixels per what? Anyone know?
Dont know man but I know we will see sone wicked cool amoled display with cool density and what we are expecting from this technology and from the SGS4 ^^
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Vertron said:
What does it mean by it has 16 subpixels? And the galaxy s2 has 12 subpixels?
It obvious isn't subpixels per pixel. The only thing that makes sense is that it will have 16 subpixels per 4 pixels, as the gs2 has 3 subpixels per pixel, so 3*4=12. So does that mean the ClorOLED display has 4 subpixels per pixel? 4*4=16.
That's just a guess. It has 16 subpixels per what? Anyone know?
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Click to collapse
maybe the pixels are RGBW? only way i can think.
Yes the pixels are in a rgbw layout according to this site; http://www.androidpit.com/samsung-s-stunningly-clear-new-displays-to-debut-next-year
I'ld imagine the pixel arrangement will be similar to the new Galaxy Note 2 pixel layout, but with a white subpixel in there too.
If that's the case then I guess that every pixel will have 1 bigger blue subpixel on 1 side and smaller red, green & white pixels stacked next to it. Or maybe something completely different.
uvaman said:
We've been sent some info claimed to be from meetings with Samsung on its AMOLED display developments. The source says they've been told that Samsung is working on a project for a so-called ClorOLED display to be ready for mass yields in June 2013.
The specs are nothing short of stunning, if this whole tip is true, since the pixel density has allegedly been disclosed by Samsung to be 358ppi in a 5.8" unit, made with an RGB matrix, instead of the PenTile arrangement Samsung's been using for its HD Super AMOLED screens until the Note II.
The claimed resolution, however, doesn't really add up to that pixel density. The source says the display is to sport the rather unconventional 1024x980 pixels, which, coupled with the reported 5.8" size, adds up to 244ppi. Here comes the kicker, though - out tipster claims that the RGB matrix of this project, codenamed ClorOLED, will be done with no less than 16 subpixels, so make of it what you will. The Super AMOLED Plus in the Galaxy S II is listed by Samsung as having 12 subpixels in ads, so we'd have a third more here.
With the Note II and its unconventional matrix arrangement Samsung showed that it is not afraid to experiment with the subpixels count, shape and position of its AMOLED displays, and produced its brightest and most discernible HD AMOLED screen so far, so an alternative arrangement is at least plausible.
Furthermore, we heard recently that Samsung has managed to achieve 350ppi+ pixel densities with its current conventional AMOLED production technology, called Fine Metal Mask (FMM), so that might be the production process for the ClorOLED brand in the end.
This crazy amount of subpixels would mean much greater image clarity and definition, so we are all for ClorOLED, as utopian as it may sound. Mass June 2013 production sounds just about right for a Galaxy Note III release, so we will keep an eye for any rumors on that front.
Source : Phonearena
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Sams...pixels-RGB-matrix-can-we-say-Note-III_id34165
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So what is that in English??
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I am asking myself too What we will get from this? How big is that improvement over s3, note 2 etc...Is that near 1080p etc...
Asking would like to know
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The Note 12.2 uses a pentile [RB][GW] subpixel layout vs the TabPro 8.4 which has full [RGB].
Pentile screens use just 2/3 of the subpixels compared to full RGB.
Accordingly subPixel counts:
Note 12.2 ... 2560x1600x2 gives about 8 million sub pixels
tabPro 8.4 ... 2560x1600x3 gives about 12 million
Disappointing for a device priced so high with a 'Pro' tag?
SonicTab said:
The Note 12.2 uses a pentile [RB][GW] subpixel layout vs the TabPro 8.4 which has full [RGB].
Pentile screens use just 2/3 of the subpixels compared to full RGB.
Accordingly subPixel counts:
Note 12.2 ... 2560x1600x2 gives about 8 million sub pixels
tabPro 8.4 ... 2560x1600x3 gives about 12 million
Disappointing for a device priced so high with a 'Pro' tag?
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Click to collapse
i believe that the actual experience of using the tablet and getting the best out of it matters more than the on paper calculations
I have a Nexus 10 and a Note Pro 12.2 and can't tell any difference in pixel density so quit complaining about paper specs. It's a great tabet!
rkirmeier said:
I have a Nexus 10 and a Note Pro 12.2 and can't tell any difference in pixel density so quit complaining about paper specs. It's a great tabet!
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Turn that in to PPI and it doesn't look so bad. The gross PPI for the N12.2 is 247. The addition of the white sub-pixel (25% of the total count) reduces the RGB pixels by 8% each leaving them at 227 PPI each. The iPad Air is at 264 PPI and the net RGB for the N10.1-14 is 274 (gross is 299) resulting in the N12.2 having 14% fewer RGB pixels per inch than the iPad and 17% less than the N10.1-14. It's 24% less than the N10 which uses a RGB stripe display. Whether those PPI reductions are comparatively noticeable depends more on individual visual acuity and the distance the device is viewed from than anything else. Some reviewers commented on the display being less sharp when compared to the Tab|Pro 8.4/10.1 and N10.1-14.
Same here. No perceived difference in sharpness/quality with my Nexus 10.
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BarryH_GEG said:
Turn that in to PPI and it doesn't look so bad. The gross PPI for the N12.2 is 247. The addition of the white sub-pixel (25% of the total count) reduces the RGB pixels by 8% each leaving them at 227 PPI each. The iPad Air is at 264 PPI and the net RGB for the N10.1-14 is 274 (gross is 299) resulting in the N12.2 having 14% fewer RGB pixels per inch than the iPad and 17% less than the N10.1-14. It's 24% less than the N10 which uses a RGB stripe display. Whether those PPI reductions are comparatively noticeable depends more on individual visual acuity and the distance the device is viewed from than anything else. Some reviewers commented on the display being less sharp when compared to the Tab|Pro 8.4/10.1 and N10.1-14.
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All these calculations are a waste of time and effort. I can't tell the difference side by side so no one is going to be able to honestly perceive that one is better then another... These kind of arguments and numbers are only for haters or people who can't afford a device but want to convince themselves they really don't want it because of some technical specs that can't be perceived in real world usage/conditions.
Look it is what it is.
Samsung used a pentile screen in the 12.2 . Pentile screens have 2/3 of the sub pixels of a normal RGB display.
The display quality of the TabPro 8.4 is incredible, 1078 sub pixels per inch,
whereas the 12.2 pentile display clocks in at 494 sub pixels per inch.
As others have noted, the 12.2 Note screen is more than usable, but it's inferior to a full RGB display.
SonicTab said:
Look it is what it is.
Samsung used a pentile screen in the 12.2 . Pentile screens have 2/3 of the sub pixels of a normal RGB display.
The display quality of the TabPro 8.4 is incredible, 1078 sub pixels per inch,
whereas the 12.2 pentile display clocks in at 494 sub pixels per inch.
As others have noted, the 12.2 Note screen is more than usable, but it's inferior to a full RGB display.
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Click to collapse
So you are not getting one ?!
As I said actual experience matter than paper specs and calculations etc. I have seen no one disappointed about the screen not on here or in a YouTube video but you . everyone is charmed by the beauty of the screen and happy with it . those calculations are not a deal breaker for anyone around here and if you are not happy with what you would get with the note pro you could simply get the 8.4 tap pro its a personal reference .
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SonicTab said:
Look it is what it is.
Samsung used a pentile screen in the 12.2 . Pentile screens have 2/3 of the sub pixels of a normal RGB display.
The display quality of the TabPro 8.4 is incredible, 1078 sub pixels per inch,
whereas the 12.2 pentile display clocks in at 494 sub pixels per inch.
As others have noted, the 12.2 Note screen is more than usable, but it's inferior to a full RGB display.
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Click to collapse
Sorry but you are being stupid. Stop analyzing the specs and actually try out the devices. No way you can perceive any difference under normal operating conditions. I truly feel sorry for you...
It's an lower quality display. The difference can be seen, and stated and is unexpected in a premium product.
If your charmed by the product or unable to see the difference, all the better.
Maybe Samsung has judged its target audience correctly.
SonicTab said:
Look it is what it is.
Samsung used a pentile screen in the 12.2 . Pentile screens have 2/3 of the sub pixels of a normal RGB display.
The display quality of the TabPro 8.4 is incredible, 1078 sub pixels per inch,
whereas the 12.2 pentile display clocks in at 494 sub pixels per inch.
As others have noted, the 12.2 Note screen is more than usable, but it's inferior to a full RGB display.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
SonicTab said:
The Note 12.2 uses a pentile [RB][GW] subpixel layout vs the TabPro 8.4 which has full [RGB].
Pentile screens use just 2/3 of the subpixels compared to full RGB.
Accordingly subPixel counts:
Note 12.2 ... 2560x1600x2 gives about 8 million sub pixels
tabPro 8.4 ... 2560x1600x3 gives about 12 million
Disappointing for a device priced so high with a 'Pro' tag?
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Actually the way pentile and rgb stripe displays render information is totally different. Rgb use an entire pixel (rgb) to create an image. Rgbw displays render on the subpixel level. The pixels actually have no locked in grid they must conform to but rather work with all those around them to render the same resolution image as rgb with 2/3 of the subpixels. There is no discernable difference except that rgbw actually conforms to the process of the human eye better and thus can achieve better color parity with real life.
PenTile® technology is biomimetic, meaning it is designed to compliment the complex mechanics of the eye-brain system. As a simple example of eye mechanics consider how the eye utilizes the color blue. The eye has cone receptors that sense color and brightness, and discern patterns. These cones are sensitive to different wavelengths of color—primarily red, green, and blue. The blue cones detect mostly color (chroma) information, while the red and green cones do most of the work resolving images by discerning luminance, edges, and structural details of images, as well as contributing to color vision. The red and green cones are used independently, each cone seeing a "dot" of black and white—ignoring its color to produce high resolution luminance perception—and are used in opposition, comparing the amount of red versus green, to produce low resolution color perception.
If there was an obvious disadvantage I doubt one of the largest and most successful electronics companies to ever exist would not use pentile. Or have you all forgotten that the NOTE 3 pentile is hailed as the best screen on a phone period (with regards to new 2k screens coming this year) even beating out all lcd rgb competition?
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SonicTab said:
Maybe Samsung has judged its target audience correctly.
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^This.
Measurement is objective, but enjoyment is subjective.
Duly.noted said:
Actually the way pentile and rgb stripe displays render information is totally different. Rgb use an entire pixel (rgb) to create an image. Rgbw displays render on the subpixel level. The pixels actually have no locked in grid they must conform to but rather work with all those around them to render the same resolution image as rgb with 2/3 of the subpixels. There is no discernable difference except that rgbw actually conforms to the process of the human eye better and thus can achieve better color parity with real life.
PenTile® technology is biomimetic, meaning it is designed to compliment the complex mechanics of the eye-brain system. As a simple example of eye mechanics consider how the eye utilizes the color blue. The eye has cone receptors that sense color and brightness, and discern patterns. These cones are sensitive to different wavelengths of color—primarily red, green, and blue. The blue cones detect mostly color (chroma) information, while the red and green cones do most of the work resolving images by discerning luminance, edges, and structural details of images, as well as contributing to color vision. The red and green cones are used independently, each cone seeing a "dot" of black and white—ignoring its color to produce high resolution luminance perception—and are used in opposition, comparing the amount of red versus green, to produce low resolution color perception.
If there was an obvious disadvantage I doubt one of the largest and most successful electronics companies to ever exist would not use pentile. Or have you all forgotten that the NOTE 3 pentile is hailed as the best screen on a phone period (with regards to new 2k screens coming this year) even beating out all lcd rgb competition?
Sent from my SCH-I605 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
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PREACH.
The only other image related difference, I believe, is that the tab can record HD video at a higher fps. The camera only weighs in at a craptastic 8 MP, and I don't use my tablet, of all things, to film video. The s-pen, on the other hand, is fantastic for graphic work.
rkirmeier said:
Sorry but you are being stupid. Stop analyzing the specs and actually try out the devices. No way you can perceive any difference under normal operating conditions. I truly feel sorry for you...
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How is this stupid? We are not talking about a $100 or a $200 device; this is the most expensive Android tablet where EVERYTHING should be premium. When the build quality is already meh, not having 2560x1600 at standard RGB stripe for a LCD is a kick to the teeth.
The comparison with the Note 3 is asinine, because this is not 1080p AMOLED on a 5.7" screen where the tradeoffs with Pentile are more than worth it. 2560x1600 RGB is only 227 ppi, Pentile reduces it to 2/3 to 150 ppi. The claim you make that people can't see the difference like Retina iPad is ridiculous.
My brother has the 12.2 which I have actually used it so don't use the "you didn't tried it out hurr hurr" excuse to shut people up. Straight edges are clearly blurrier than my iPad Air. But hey if you like Samsung to continue selling you inferior specs at high prices be their guest.
But at the end it's not the pixel density. If you get the same effect with new technique, you don't need so high density. But as you said you see the difference in straight edges so probably buyers should then first check the screen do they see the same or not.
Sent from my N8000.
I have the note 3, note 10.1 2012 and the note pro 12.2, the note pro is much better than my note 3 and my note 10.1 2012 combined. If you want to complain about ppi, then you should complain about the first note 10.1. 1280 x 800 on a 10.1 inch screen vs 2560 x 1600 on a 12 inch screen. Considering the first note 10.1, that is a screen upgrade to me.
Sent from my SM-N900P using XDA Premium HD app
Metallic Palladium said:
How is this stupid? We are not talking about a $100 or a $200 device; this is the most expensive Android tablet where EVERYTHING should be premium. When the build quality is already meh, not having 2560x1600 at standard RGB stripe for a LCD is a kick to the teeth.
The comparison with the Note 3 is asinine, because this is not 1080p AMOLED on a 5.7" screen where the tradeoffs with Pentile are more than worth it. 2560x1600 RGB is only 227 ppi, Pentile reduces it to 2/3 to 150 ppi. The claim you make that people can't see the difference like Retina iPad is ridiculous.
My brother has the 12.2 which I have actually used it so don't use the "you didn't tried it out hurr hurr" excuse to shut people up. Straight edges are clearly blurrier than my iPad Air. But hey if you like Samsung to continue selling you inferior specs at high prices be their guest.
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Good, I hope you don't buy a 12.2 for this reason. No one really cares and it's your loss... I firmly stick by my claims, I have better then 20/20 vision and at normal viewing distance (i.e. 18inches or so) it's impossible to tell the difference. You go ahead and stick face right up to the tablet screens and compare them side by side finding that under non normal usage it's technically possible to see a slight difference if that is what you need to do. 99.9% of people who want this tablet have no issue with the screen cause if you take away the specs and evaluate the screen under normal usage conditions it's as good as anything on the market. If you think your little online rant about the resolution is going to force Samsung to make a screen that meets your specs you need a reality check. I'm going to enjoy my Note 12.2 and in a year from now Samsung will likely release a newer upgrade model with a "better" screen (as that is what happens every year) that may meet your technical requirements. Until then you enjoy your little iPad Air and I'll me enjoying my Note 12.2!
How is this thread still going? Either you buy one, or you don't. I bought it, and I'm never looking back. It has all the functionality I need, plus things I've not yet gotten around to messing with. It's an awesome tablet. If subpixels are what you're in the market for, then you have done your homework and know this isn't what you need.
This is what I need. Very pleased.
Thank you, and goodnight.
Metallic Palladium said:
How is this stupid? We are not talking about a $100 or a $200 device; this is the most expensive Android tablet where EVERYTHING should be premium. When the build quality is already meh, not having 2560x1600 at standard RGB stripe for a LCD is a kick to the teeth.
The comparison with the Note 3 is asinine, because this is not 1080p AMOLED on a 5.7" screen where the tradeoffs with Pentile are more than worth it. 2560x1600 RGB is only 227 ppi, Pentile reduces it to 2/3 to 150 ppi. The claim you make that people can't see the difference like Retina iPad is ridiculous.
My brother has the 12.2 which I have actually used it so don't use the "you didn't tried it out hurr hurr" excuse to shut people up. Straight edges are clearly blurrier than my iPad Air. But hey if you like Samsung to continue selling you inferior specs at high prices be their guest.
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Samsung FIRMLY believes that pentile is a better screen technology than lcd they are the ones driving it's development. It is more akin to how the human eye actually works and it is easier on the eyes. The number of sub pixels is the same just one per every four is white, It is 30% more energy efficient and it requires fewer sub pixels to display at the same resolution, the human eye will see it the same as a higher resolution. To be technical though gentile displays have ZERO sub pixels. Each individual subpixel is rendered separately. They are not in pre defined groups and can be combined into any number of logical pixels. So technically the screen is using 12,288,000 individual pixels.*
conventional RGB stripe displays render (draw) images by assigning a color and luminance (brightness) to an entire RGB-triplet as a whole pixel, adjusting its three RGB subpixels to set a single addressable point. Images on a PenTile RGBW™ panel are subpixel rendered, meaning they are drawn at the subpixel level (the individual points of light), rather than to the whole pixels of an RGB stripe display. In fact "pixels" in the traditional sense have been eliminated in PenTile RGBW™ displays; individual subpixels are not restricted to use in one pixel group, but instead participate in multiple "logical" pixels in their surrounding vicinity.
Subpixel rendering dramatically increases addressability and enables the sophisticated image processing used in PenTile RGBW™ displays.
That is from nouyance the company that invented pentile and rgbw They also say
PenTile® technology is biomimetic, meaning it is designed to compliment the complex mechanics of the eye-brain system. As a simple example of eye mechanics consider how the eye utilizes the color blue. The eye has cone receptors that sense color and brightness, and discern patterns. These cones are sensitive to different wavelengths of color—primarily red, green, and blue. The blue cones detect mostly color (chroma) information, while the red and green cones do most of the work resolving images by discerning luminance, edges, and structural details of images, as well as contributing to color vision. The red and green cones are used independently, each cone seeing a "dot" of black and white—ignoring its color to produce high resolution luminance perception—and are used in opposition, comparing the amount of red versus green, to produce low resolution color perception.
The PenTile RGBW™ layout uses each red, green, blue and white subpixel to present high-resolution luminance information to the red and green cones, while using the combined effect of all the color subpixels to present lower-resolution chroma (color) information to all three cone types. Combined, this optimizes the match of display technology to the biological mechanisms of human vision.
Other human-vision factors such as the logarithmic representation of luminance values, variable resolution between the center and edge of vision, and the separation and compression of brightness and color differences are also exploited in the design of PenTile RGBW™ displays.
The human eye perceives the resolution of the PenTile RGBW™ panel as the same as an equivalent RGB stripe panel, yet the PenTile®*panel uses one-third fewer subpixels. Consider the figure below to understand how this is accomplished.
At the top is the PenTile RGBW™ layout; at the bottom RGB stripe. The circle at the bottom center demonstrates the finest pattern of vertical black and white lines an RGB stripe display is capable of rendering. This requires three columns (R + G + B) be turned "on" and an equivalent width of three columns be turned "off" to write one cycle of a black and white line. From a suitable distance this collection of color subpixels appears to the eye as a white line.
The top center circle shows the equivalent pattern of vertical black and white lines written to the PenTile RGBW™ layout. From a distance the array of color subpixels in two columns will appear to the eye as a white line, identical to that generated by the RGB stripe layout, and the following two columns will write the corresponding black line. With only four columns being used to accomplish the same linear cycle that required six columns for legacy RGB stripe, two columns are saved. Hence, PenTile RGBW™ technology maintains the same resolution with one-third fewer columns, one-third fewer subpixels and one-third fewer transistors in the array. This results in wider columns and improved aperture ratio (ratio of transmissive area of a subpixel to the total area of that subpixel).
The circles on the right of the figure demonstrate the finest pattern of black and white lines which may be written horizontally to RGB stripe (bottom) and PenTile RGBW™ (top). Note that both layouts require the same number of rows for horizontal lines.
from this information we can see that a rgb display and a rgbw pentile are equal in displayed resolution and the pentile is more efficient. In black and white images and full color media Petite and rgb are 100% indistinguishable and only when displaying text against a fully saturated background (color text against a solid Colored background) or a sudden transition between two colors can a difference be seen and these are almost unnoticeable on high density displays like the Note 2014 or Note 12.2 pro. What you call drawbacks to pentile I call progress and efficiency. If I can't see a difference there isn't one. Only mine is bigger and more useful with better battery life. I owned the 2014 and work around and begrudgingly sell ipad airs on regular basis. I also have perfect vision in one eye and nobody I have EVER had come into my store has seen the 12.2's Screen as anything short of magnificent. Yes I suppose if you get close enough to your screen that you can barely focus on it that You could see a difference but ya Know I have a life and at normal viewing distances it is flawless. I mean I guess I better not buy a laptop anytime Soon since their dpi's are lower than an ipads right? Or if I want something really worth owning I need that 20" 4K tablet. And my TV is only 1080p? Its 50" THAT'S ONLY 44 DPI OMG I BETTER TRASH IT!!! Forget viewing distances I can't believe I enjoy this crap. I need at least an 8K tv to get a good dpi now I just need to wait about 6 years before I can own a tv again. And a 100" tv? Give me 16k and we can talk.
ExtremeRyno said:
How is this thread still going? Either you buy one, or you don't. I bought it, and I'm never looking back. It has all the functionality I need, plus things I've not yet gotten around to messing with. It's an awesome tablet. If subpixels are what you're in the market for, then you have done your homework and know this isn't what you need.
This is what I need. Very pleased.
Thank you, and goodnight.
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you said what i wanted to say exactly last night but i decided not too since things are getting awkward and pointless since he clearly is decided not to buy it but also the thread seems to be to make people stop buying the device based on some quality calculations
Maybe Google has taken cuts with the phone?
I hear the moto x 2014 compared to galaxy S5, the screen difference is pretty big.
One uses amoled and one uses super amoled. Hopefully the 2k resolution will help the brightness and vibrancy.
What do you guys think? I haven't held a moto x and S5 together but I absolutely love the S5 screen.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
If anything, the 2k screen will be less bright...
Sent from my LG G3
Resolution has nothing to do with brightness or vibrancy
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
It's harder to push light through more pixels, so sure you can get a stronger backlight, but then you get more power consumption and heat.
Sent from my LG G3
Nitemare3219 said:
It's harder to push light through more pixels, so sure you can get a stronger backlight, but then you get more power consumption and heat.
Sent from my LG G3
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Huh? You don't push light through pixels with amoled screens. Per pixel brightness is certainly not affected by resolution, perhaps only with LCD screens.
Nitemare3219 said:
It's harder to push light through more pixels, so sure you can get a stronger backlight, but then you get more power consumption and heat.
Sent from my LG G3
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Amoled displays don't have backlights, the display itself is the source of light.
Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
My mistake, completely forgot that part about AMOLED. Been using IPS screens since I had a Galaxy Nexus, and that screen was junk.. so I've been wanting to stick to IPS. My G3 is gorgeous, so I'm kinda scared to see the N6 with AMOLED.
Sent from my LG G3
Black ink spots kill AMOLED screens for me.
theoneofgod said:
Black ink spots kill AMOLED screens for me.
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Mura affects aren't really part of amoled. Oled screens it is like on my ps Vita
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RedBlueGreen said:
Maybe Google has taken cuts with the phone?
I hear the moto x 2014 compared to galaxy S5, the screen difference is pretty big.
One uses amoled and one uses super amoled. Hopefully the 2k resolution will help the brightness and vibrancy.
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AMOLED is the screen technology. "Super AMOLED" is just Samsung's brand name for their own screens using AMOLED technology, not a separate technology. It remains to be seen what the Nexus 6 screen looks like when compared to Note 4.
Are you sure cause the S2 with Super AMOLED was significantly better than their regular AMOLED models like the GNEX.
HTC One M8
I've not used AMOLED since my Galaxy Nexus, but it was horrendous. Banding visible all over the screen on grey or beige (light colored) screens.
Plus, it had burn in on the status bar that I could always see on full screen youtube videos etc. Was terrible.
I'm wondering have they improved the hardware technology since then or can I expect that again on the Nexus 6,
Look forward to the reviews on here after launch. :laugh:
The OCD fanboys who buy the first wave will be busy detailing the issues. I used to be one of them. I'll wait till the second wave this time. haha :good::laugh:
gtalum said:
AMOLED is the screen technology. "Super AMOLED" is just Samsung's brand name for their own screens using AMOLED technology, not a separate technology. It remains to be seen what the Nexus 6 screen looks like when compared to Note 4.
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Super AMOLED is based on AMOLED a technology, but has an integrated digitizer instead of it laid on top, making it brighter and more vibrant. It also reflects less sunlight than a standard AMOLED screen.
It is their marketing term, but does have some modifications
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gtalum said:
AMOLED is the screen technology. "Super AMOLED" is just Samsung's brand name for their own screens using AMOLED technology, not a separate technology. It remains to be seen what the Nexus 6 screen looks like when compared to Note 4.
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this>
jmm22 said:
Super AMOLED is based on AMOLED a technology, but has an integrated digitizer instead of it laid on top, making it brighter and more vibrant. It also reflects less sunlight than a standard AMOLED screen.
It is their marketing term, but does have some modifications
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Imagine if they used non pentile
This is a quick pull from wiki explaining the difference between all amoled screens
Super AMOLED[edit]
Super AMOLED is Samsung's term for an AMOLED display with an integrated digitizer, meaning that the layer that detects touch is integrated into the screen, rather than overlaid on top of it. According to Samsung, Super AMOLED reflects one-fifth as much sunlight compared to the first generation AMOLED.[21][22] The display technology itself is not changed. Super AMOLED is part of the Pentile matrix family. It is sometimes abbreviated SAMOLED.
For the Samsung Galaxy S III, which reverted to Super AMOLED instead of the pixelation-free conventional RGB (non-PenTile) Super AMOLED Plus of its predecessor Samsung Galaxy S II, the S III's larger screen size encourages users to hold the phone further from their face to obscure the PenTile effect.[23]
Super AMOLED Advanced[edit]
Ambox current red.svg
This section is outdated. Please update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. (January 2014)
Super AMOLED Advanced is a term marketed by Motorola to describe a brighter display than Super AMOLED screens, but also a higher resolution – qHD or 960 × 540 for Super AMOLED Advanced compared to WVGA or 800 × 480 for Super AMOLED. It also is 25% more energy efficient. Super AMOLED Advanced features PenTile, which sharpens subpixels in between pixels to make a higher resolution display, but by doing this, some picture quality is lost.[24] This display equips the Motorola Droid RAZR.[25]
Super AMOLED Plus[edit]
The Samsung Galaxy S II, with a Super AMOLED Plus screen
Super AMOLED Plus, first introduced with the Samsung Galaxy S II and Samsung Droid Charge smartphones, is a branding from Samsung where the PenTile RGBG pixel matrix (2 subpixels) used in Super AMOLED displays has been replaced with a traditional RGB RGB (3 subpixels) arrangement typically used in LCD displays. This variant of AMOLED is brighter and therefore more energy efficient than Super AMOLED displays[26] and produces a sharper, less grainy image because of the increased number of subpixels. In comparison to AMOLED and Super AMOLED displays, the Super AMOLED Plus displays are even more energy efficient and brighter. However, Samsung cited screen life and costs by not using Plus on the Galaxy S II's successor, the Samsung Galaxy S III.[18]
HD Super AMOLED[edit]
Galaxy Note II subpixels representation, based on 400X image of the Note II display[27]
The Galaxy Nexus, with an HD Super AMOLED screen[28]
HD Super AMOLED is a branding from Samsung for an HD-resolution (>1280×720) Super AMOLED display. The first device to use it was the Samsung Galaxy Note. The Galaxy Nexus and the Galaxy S III both implement the HD Super AMOLED with a PenTile RGBG-matrix (2 subpixels/pixel), while the Galaxy Note II uses an RBG matrix (3 subpixels/pixel) but not in the standard 3 stripe arrangement.[27]
HD Super AMOLED Plus[edit]
A variant of the Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tizen OS 1 was benchmarked using a non-pentile HD Super AMOLED Plus screen in 2012.[29]
Full HD Super AMOLED[edit]
As featured on the Samsung Galaxy S4[30] and Samsung Galaxy Note 3. It has the broadest color gamut of any mobile display of up to 97% of the Adobe RGB color space, hence making it a wide-gamut display.[31][32]
Future[edit]
Future displays exhibited from 2011 to 2013 by Samsung have shown flexible, 3D, unbreakable, transparent Super AMOLED Plus displays using very high resolutions and in varying sizes for phones. These unreleased prototypes use a polymer as a substrate removing the need for glass cover, a metal backing, and touch matrix, combining them into one integrated layer.[33]
So far, Samsung plans on branding the newer displays as Youm.[34]
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OMFG are people here really this clueless? Samsung calls ALL their AMOLED panels Super AMOLED. That includes the ones they sell to Motorola and Nokia. They are ALL made by Samsung. The reason why the Moto X 2014 doesn't look as good as the Galaxy S5 is because Samsung ALWAYS sells the last generation to their competitors and saves the latest generation for themselves. In other words what you see on the Moto X is the same tech as the Galaxy S4, not the S5. And for those dumb people who keep on saying higher resolution means lower brightness, this is only true for LCD since they use a backlight and it has to shine through each pixel, with more pixels decreasing the brightness overall. AMOLED is completely different in that each pixel is its own light source and when you pack them together, they will be brighter not dimmer, just like how your vanity mirror in your restroom will be brighter with three small 600 lumen bulbs near each other versus just one 900 lumen bulb.
theoneofgod said:
Black ink spots kill AMOLED screens for me.
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Ah yes, now I remember those black spots too.. what exactly caused those and can we expect this on the N6?
Hopefully screen burn is a thing of the past, especially with the nav and status bars going transparent on the home screen.
If the display is PenTile, that will probably kill it for me right away. I can't stand the fuzziness that comes with that junky setup. I bought a Yoga 2 Pro and noticed it right away which is part of why I returned it. I also hate how AMOLED has a very blue/green hue to it.. guess we'll see how the N6 turns out.
Sent from my LG G3
For me both suck... cause of degradation of the organic led.. colors become toned... and burn in issue.. they are simply inadequate.. expecially at that price...
From what I recall Samsung makes all AMOLED displays so you should expect it to be great. Google wouldn't put a bad display on a flagship phone.
Nitemare3219 said:
Ah yes, now I remember those black spots too.. what exactly caused those and can we expect this on the N6?
Hopefully screen burn is a thing of the past, especially with the nav and status bars going transparent on the home screen.
If the display is PenTile, that will probably kill it for me right away. I can't stand the fuzziness that comes with that junky setup. I bought a Yoga 2 Pro and noticed it right away which is part of why I returned it. I also hate how AMOLED has a very blue/green hue to it.. guess we'll see how the N6 turns out.
Sent from my LG G3
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screen burn isn't a thing of the past.. beacause the technology il still the same.. organic led degradate with use.. losing brightness and uncalibrating all screen colors (this with homogeneous wear) but some elements like status bar icons and navbar buttons are always in the same position!! And they will burn in inevitably
Pilz said:
From what I recall Samsung makes all AMOLED displays so you should expect it to be great. Google wouldn't put a bad display on a flagship phone.
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nexus 4 & 5
In other words what you see on the Moto X is the same tech as the Galaxy S4
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There is a slight difference between the moto X 2014 and S4 screens.
>
Super AMOLED is a version of AMOLED display technology that integrates a capacitive touchscreen layer directly into the display instead of overlaying it on top of the display, as has traditionally been done. This results in a thinner design that uses less power and reflects less light, and as a result works better outdoors.
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