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Ok my buddy has an atrix 4g for ATT. he 'said' he was in cwm and loading a rom and now its softbricked. though i am familiar with droid, after reading recovery threads and everything, im still unsure of my resolution. most threads tell me i need an unlocked bootloader, others say not to flash if you were on this version. Honestly i have no idea if the BL is locked, what version or update he was on. at the moment it says failed to boot, starting RSD mode, battery is too low to flash.
A. will it charge while it says that or how should i charge it in this state?
B. after it does charge, what should i flash to it?
I apologize that i dont have much information. you have no idea how long it took me to find the power button lol. I appreciate any and all suggestions. Thanks
You definitely need to get more information from him before you can do anything. If his bootloader wasn't unlocked, then he was likely trying to flash one of the P-Roms like Greyblur or Gingerblur, in which case your solution will be a lot messier since the only way I remember accessing recovery back then was by using Tenfar's CWM app that reset it to recovery w/ a wall charger.
As for charging the phone, I don't recommend keeping it on and plugged in, in the chance that it doesn't charge and you are left with a dead battery. When the phone is completely off and you plug the charger in, do you see the charging battery?
When the phone is plugged into the wall charger it boots up automatically and says failed to boot 1, starting rsd, battery too low to flash. If I plug it into my pc the green power light turns on but nothing else happens. I never get any pictures on screen. No battery and no motorola logo. He was on 2.3.4 but he took his sd so I couldn't see what he was trying to flash. I will try to get more info
Sent from my DROID3 using XDA App
Same thing happened to me, and I can assure you it doesn't charge in that state. I have to find a way to charge the battery now... It is 0% dead. I hope I can use RSD Lite to fix it when it is charged.
alright, what happened was his battery was too low to finish the flash. it died halfway through, and now the phone is in some sort of limbo state that is just completely unusable.
but, if you have a spare USB cable you can fix this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ6JNCvIe8k
just watch that video, and let your phone charge for about half an hour to 45 minutes. after that, reflash the pudding .sbf with rsdlite (unless you can boot into recovery, then you can just reflash any ROM)
If you can boot the phone into recovery by holding the volume down key when powering on, then simply find the alien rom, save onto your SD card from the PC, then install in recovery...then you should be able to reboot into a working phone and charge. If you can't boot into recovery, and the phone is stuck on the "starting rsd protocol" screen, than...I think its a paper weight, but I could be wrong.
Although this problem could probably be fixed by an earlier post, I'm curious....
what would happen if you plugged it into the wall charger, let it boot up into the boot loop, then pulled the battery, left it out for 30 seconds, then put it back in. (this is without unplugging it from the wall charger). Does it allow the phone to stay off and charge, or does it still automatically boot up? Just curious.
im gonna look at the youtube video. ive got a D3 and i saw where a kid had cut a usb cable and made something work for 30 minutes and was able to flash again, but i was def trying to avoid that lol. also, there is no loop really. it doesnt restart, it just sits there. when the battery is pulled, it still stays on the same screen and never powers off until the charger is removed. i may see if i can get a new battery. i really apprecaite the feedback
Phalanx7621 said:
Although this problem could probably be fixed by an earlier post, I'm curious....
what would happen if you plugged it into the wall charger, let it boot up into the boot loop, then pulled the battery, left it out for 30 seconds, then put it back in. (this is without unplugging it from the wall charger). Does it allow the phone to stay off and charge, or does it still automatically boot up? Just curious.
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Click to collapse
It will not charge in this state
well my only option at this moment is to try the usb trick. im trying to strip the wire and hook it to the connector on the phone and then just smash teh battery on top of it, but i have no idicator light, so i dont know if its charging. would it charge if i tape/rig/solder it to the battery itself and not have it in the phone? i really dont wanna try a wall outlet charger
I am going to splice a cable and report back with results. My only other option is to charge the battery in my friend's Droid X
If that fails, to AT&T I go.
i havent been able to get it to charge through the usb using the red and black wires. i was very careful and have a decent set of tools to work with. he can buy the external battery charger for $30 if he'd like. im not really sure what else to do at this point.
I had an ICS build from about mid February installed on my fire
from this thread http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1411895
Well today I downloaded a new ROM. So I went to turn on my Fire and it just hung for a while, the screen was blank but I could see the backlight was still on (charger was plugged in at the time)
Finally it turned of (or died) after about a minute.
Now I am unable to turn it on and when I plug in the charger the charging light doesnt come on either.
Is there a way to fix this? or am I SOL?
EDIT: NEVERMIND, i left my KF alone for about 10 minutes and just after posting this reply I held the power for about 5 seconds without the charger plugged in and it turned on!
when you say charger do you mean electrical outlet charger or usb charger? KF doesn't allow for proper charging by USB.
if the former then confirm the charger works with another device just to be sure.
It is possible that your KF was in deep sleep when you tried to turn it on...the backlight but no response is typical of the SOD (sleep of death) where the only fix is to restart runtime or hold power for 18 seconds then restart.
prior to this did u have a working ADB? that may help troubleshoot or not.
need more details I have no answers yet.
I mean wall charger. and yes it works
No it was on normally and I was at the home screen when I attempted to turn it off.
I did have ADB working (i think I used that to root it on linux) but that was on my old laptop and it has since died and now Im on another laptop
EDIT: NEVERMIND, i left my KF alone for about 10 minutes and just after posting this reply I held the power for about 5 seconds without the charger plugged in and it turned on!
Oh thank goodness I was scared I had a $200 paper weight for a minute
Thank you androidcues for attempting to help though
I'm using the factory charger but I have twrp.when I boot it it shows the triange then shuts down then back up in a loop, what should I do.I had the charger plugged in then the kf just died
Please help
I am seeing more and more of these threads of the kindle "not charging" after TWRP is installed. I am wondering if it's user error or something deeper.
I would let it charge for a bit and see what happens. Also press the power button a few times when you turn it on until the light turns orange. If it does turn orange and boots into TWRP then you know at least the kindle is not "bricked" and you can restore a backup.
Laquox said:
I am seeing more and more of these threads of the kindle "not charging" after TWRP is installed. I am wondering if it's user error or something deeper.
I would let it charge for a bit and see what happens. Also press the power button a few times when you turn it on until the light turns orange. If it does turn orange and boots into TWRP then you know at least the kindle is not "bricked" and you can restore a backup.
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Click to collapse
Thanks but it won't charge at all I know its not charging because when it turns on a little later it shuts back down,then it boots up and shuts down even faster than last time.
Have you try to press and hold the Power button for more than 30 seconds?
I think I need to take the battery out and charge it separately,but how would I charge it once its out?I need help.
jamateur said:
Have you try to press and hold the Power button for more than 30 seconds?
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Click to collapse
Yes it just turns on then off
Have you try this:
Code:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1399889
If you end up stuck at the yellow triangle, in KF Utility select Boot Normal, wait for it to say <waiting for device> and then press and hold the power button 20 seconds until the fire turns off, then when its off turn it back on. This sometimes happens, I have yet to find a clean solution
If you end up stuck with a yellow triangle, do not EVER unplug it. Leave it plugged in. Check the windows drivers to make sure it isnt showing as "kindle" again. Fastboot is different and can cause this.
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I have also used TWRP with Energy CM9 Kang ROM. In generally it is okay with a few non-major issues.
jamateur said:
Have you try this:
Code:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1399889
I have also used TWRP with Energy CM9 Kang ROM. In generally it is okay with a few non-major issues.
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Click to collapse
but its not bricked it just doesn't have enough battery to boot up even with the charger.
maybe this one:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=24086022#post24086022
espacially the linked in post from #226 ...
mad at myself
I am so mad right now...I got it working by making a charger that is one volt stronger.It booted up, but then i was going to take a picture of it to put on xda and when i plugged my charger in the seond time, the device shut down.NOW WHEN I CONNECT A CHARGER TO IT IT WONT EVEN TRY TO TURN ON,BUT IF I CLICK THE BUTTON IT TURNS ON FOR 2 SECONDS THEN TURNS OFF. I am so mad:
i assume you meant Ampere not Volt ?
usb charger has 5V - if build one with 6V (don't know how) - you will damage the device !
it should have ~2A - let it on the strong charger over night
b63 said:
maybe this one:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=24086022#post24086022
espacially the linked in post from #226 ...
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Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure that will work, if you can get that far. Otherwise (assuming you've already opened it) unplug the battery cable, start the fastboot command, plug in USB, then when (if? not sure it'll work) fastboot completes plug in the battery.
Changing the charging voltage won't help because the charge controller has a built in regulator. IIRC it will take something >12V, but there are probably other things on the USB V+ that might get fried at those levels.
I do remember from the tiny bit of battery charger documentation I'd seen that the Fire's charge controller does not have the flat battery recover feature, that is, provide a trickle charge by default if the battery is too low to power up the CPU. Which is flat out stupid on a consumer product.
disclaimer: Please delete this post if there is something like this here or somewhere else in Kindle Fire General already (and feel free to move this or re-post it somewhere else)- I have looked but haven't found anything like this yet so...
I have seen a few posts about the charging issues and feel like doing something productive here in the 'General' (non-dev) section of the Kindle Fire that may hopefully help many people using Hashcode's awesome kernel. I am running the new AOSP jelly bean rom by hashcode (using the same 3.0 kernel used by many) and have figured out the behavior almost completely in regards to charging on my device so I am going to post what I have observed in the hopes to help out others and maybe sway those 'on the fence' that aren't wanting to unlock the full potential of their device because of this 'issue'.
I recommend always using the wall charger that came with your KF. Some of the threads where people are having actual charging issues they are attempting to charge through usb. I once owned a Dell Streak 7 where usb charging was disabled (charging light would come on but it would not charge) by Dell since there wasn't enough current to adequately charge the device. So ALWAYS (whenever possible) use the included charger!
I have never yet had any issue getting my KF to charge when plugging it in when it was TURNED OFF. Plugging it in immediately turns the device on and once it starts booting up the led indicator turns from green to orange and is confirmed to be charging when accessing settings->battery.
Twice since I have flashed the JB rom I have plugged in the charger while it was on (and waited about 30 seconds) and on my KF in the settings-> battery still showed "discharging". So here's my methods when observing various charging situations (and it's really simple) of ensuring the charger will work properly.
My device's charging indicator appears to work properly but is only on when the display is on (orange when charging, green when battery level is 95-99%, off when fully charged).
An oddity I have noticed (and also read somewhere else) is that the charging indicator orange led light has a tendency to turn on (and stay on) and confirm charging much more often when the display is on so I always have the screen on when plugging it in. It's still possible to start charging with the screen off and everyone's device will behave differently. I am not trying to discourage anyone from charging with the screen off. Again this is what I have noticed in regards to my device.
Make sure that the display is on when you plug in and if the led comes on then you're good. If not, sometimes it is delayed so wait 5 seconds or so. Sometimes you need to cycle the screen on and off once or twice and the led will come on. Always confirm in settings -> battery.
If you ever plug it in and have the led come on and it immediately turns off (this is the behavior where I have experienced issues) check in the settings-> battery and if it says 'discharging' wait 5-10 seconds. Hit the refresh button. Try cycling the screen on and off once or twice. If it still shows 'discharging' then unplug the charger. Start over from the beginning (this has happened to me twice).
That's about it. So if you are on the fence and aren't sure if you should flash any ICS/JB rom only due to concerns regarding charging... please do yourself a favor and take the plunge-the performance is incredible. Hashcode and other devs here have poured out their time and efforts to make our Kindle Fires AMAZING. If you like their work and efforts hit the 'thanks':good: button. If you LOVE your dev's rom and can't imagine living without it hit the 'donate' button so you won't have to worry about living without it.:highfive:
If anyone else has any additional observations please add them to this thread- it will be very helpful for others!
Great post, thanks OP. I had the same exact problems with charging. That said, the problem seems to have gone away now that I just flashed the [CM10] Jelly Bean ROM that @twa_priv posted. With this one, Google Now works (albeit without voice search), and I'm seeing the amber indicator even when the screen's turned off.
Fantastic work by @twa_priv, and many thanks to @Hashcode!
Edit: Scratch my last. Back to keeping the screen on. It was going well for a while until the amber light decided to go off. Ah well, guess we'll have to wait a bit longer!
Great post! Mine charges regardless of both the state of the LED indicator and battery status under settings. I plug mine in every night, the LED blinks orange, goes off with the screen, and the device is charged at 100% the following morning every time. It also charges even if the status is listed as discharging, and on mine it will be listed as discharging the entire time it is plugged in. It should also be noted that mine charges just fine, albeit rather slowly, via USB.
may i just add that if you have a battery monitor widget, like Battery Life, from the play store, most have a little charge icon that shows up when the device is charging, this has worked for me ever since hash first made his kernel and it was all buggy.
hope this helps someone.
devilot said:
Great post! Mine charges regardless of both the state of the LED indicator and battery status under settings. I plug mine in every night, the LED blinks orange, goes off with the screen, and the device is charged at 100% the following morning every time. It also charges even if the status is listed as discharging, and on mine it will be listed as discharging the entire time it is plugged in. It should also be noted that mine charges just fine, albeit rather slowly, via USB.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same for me.
After I installed jelly bean, I started having charging issues. I would leave the kindle charging on the stock charger all night and it wasn't even at ninety percent. I then noticed that I could not connect the kindle top my computer, PC or Mac, not adb not usb mount, nothing. I even loaded Ubuntu on a stick and it was not recognized. I thought maybe it was a kernel problem so I went back to Modaco and I still had all the same problems.
Coincidentally, the same day I had left the kindle in my car. Maybe the heat fried something. Just in case I thought I would post in case this happened to someone else. I don't think a kernel could fry hardware across roms.
Sent from my Amazon Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
My two cents:
I'm running Jandycane 1.4 (by lithium), and I'm using a charger that came with an old Moto Droid. There is no LED indicator showing anything, nor does the tablet itself have a charging symbol showing in the task bar (no lightning bolt, doesn't say "charging" or anything).
Regardless of everything, the device simply charges when it's plugged in. Every morning, I wake up to a charged KF, ready to go
Trying to fix a family members xt907 so here's the situation which has been nothing but headaches for me:
1. The Phone is only 7 months old and the bootloader is unlocked so warranty exchange is out of the question. She let the battery run down until the phone died. Then without charging the phone she turned it back on and it died again. From that point she couldn't get it to charge or turn back on while plugged in. At this point she brought it to me.
2. I got the phone and did a soft reset which finally got the charging screen to come up (showed the actual charging icon and the fill meter would flash up and then back down periodically). Problem is it never went past 0% after charging all night. I went ahead and tried to power it up thinking maybe it was just a glitch with the charging screen. Phone wouldnt boot. Just stuck at the Motorola logo. Another soft reset and the phone finally boots but now the battery icon showed a '?' and status showed '5% - Unknown'.
3. Performed a factory reset. No change. So I used RSD to flash the stock 4.1.2 firmware/kernel/modem, etc... What I found strange here is that despite the low battery Fastboot AP showed battery as OK, not low and let me flash (bootloader is unlocked, not sure if that affects low battery flashing or if that safeguard just wasnt built into the M).
4. So phone boots back up and shows 7% battery. Plugging in the charger at first notice has no affect. Battery stats shows '7% - Not Charging'. So I unplug the charger and the low battery warning pops up. Plug it back in and phone still doesnt register as charging, but says 'Not Charging'. Then I notice that the lockscreen shows '7% Charging'. Weird. Regardless of all that, the battery was not charging. The percentage never goes up and after reboots the percentage will remain the same. The battery does slowly discharge on the charger if I have it powered on.
5. I tried flashing a couple different roms before flashing back to stock and all had the same problem. I've formated /system hoping it was a problem with the OS but it didnt help. All of these charging tests were performed with the stock Motorola usb cable plugged into the wall charger. I tested the Motorola charger against my S4 to verify it works and also tried my Samsung charger on the Razr and it made no difference. However, booting the Razr M up with the Samsung charger resulted in the '?' in the battery icon and a notification in the status bar saying something about a CommServer starting. This notification was persistant and could not be dismissed. If I reboot the phone with the Motorola charger or no charger then that notification and the '?' dont appear.
6. I should also point out that I opened the phone up and disconnected the battery from the board and discharged the board. As a last resort I completely removed the battery and peeled back the tape on the bottom of the battery to expose the + and - terminals on the battery and wired it up to a stripped down charger and left it for a bit. Upon putting the battery back in the phone it showed a charge of 30% but still had all the same problems otherwise. So the battery is capable of taking a charge, it just wont take it through the phone, whether powered on or off. Thats what leads me to believe the battery itself is not bad. Its not practical for her to pull the battery to charge it, obviously. The phone detects the cable being plugged in and I can transfer files via usb cable to/from the computer no problem, so I'm fairly sure the Micro usb port is ok. Just refuses to charge.
A little lengthy but I'm at my wits end on this and really dont want to have her buy a $50 battery and then its a problem with the phone. I dont usually get stumped when it comes to fixing something but this one really has me. So if anybody can shed some light on this situation it would be greatly appreciated.
CallMeAria said:
Trying to fix a family members xt907 so here's the situation which has been nothing but headaches for me:
1. The Phone is only 7 months old and the bootloader is unlocked so warranty exchange is out of the question. She let the battery run down until the phone died. Then without charging the phone she turned it back on and it died again. From that point she couldn't get it to charge or turn back on while plugged in. At this point she brought it to me.
2. I got the phone and did a soft reset which finally got the charging screen to come up (showed the actual charging icon and the fill meter would flash up and then back down periodically). Problem is it never went past 0% after charging all night. I went ahead and tried to power it up thinking maybe it was just a glitch with the charging screen. Phone wouldnt boot. Just stuck at the Motorola logo. Another soft reset and the phone finally boots but now the battery icon showed a '?' and status showed '5% - Unknown'.
3. Performed a factory reset. No change. So I used RSD to flash the stock 4.1.2 firmware/kernel/modem, etc... What I found strange here is that despite the low battery Fastboot AP showed battery as OK, not low and let me flash (bootloader is unlocked, not sure if that affects low battery flashing or if that safeguard just wasnt built into the M).
4. So phone boots back up and shows 7% battery. Plugging in the charger at first notice has no affect. Battery stats shows '7% - Not Charging'. So I unplug the charger and the low battery warning pops up. Plug it back in and phone still doesnt register as charging, but says 'Not Charging'. Then I notice that the lockscreen shows '7% Charging'. Weird. Regardless of all that, the battery was not charging. The percentage never goes up and after reboots the percentage will remain the same. The battery does slowly discharge on the charger if I have it powered on.
5. I tried flashing a couple different roms before flashing back to stock and all had the same problem. I've formated /system hoping it was a problem with the OS but it didnt help. All of these charging tests were performed with the stock Motorola usb cable plugged into the wall charger. I tested the Motorola charger against my S4 to verify it works and also tried my Samsung charger on the Razr and it made no difference. However, booting the Razr M up with the Samsung charger resulted in the '?' in the battery icon and a notification in the status bar saying something about a CommServer starting. This notification was persistant and could not be dismissed. If I reboot the phone with the Motorola charger or no charger then that notification and the '?' dont appear.
6. I should also point out that I opened the phone up and disconnected the battery from the board and discharged the board. As a last resort I completely removed the battery and peeled back the tape on the bottom of the battery to expose the + and - terminals on the battery and wired it up to a stripped down charger and left it for a bit. Upon putting the battery back in the phone it showed a charge of 30% but still had all the same problems otherwise. So the battery is capable of taking a charge, it just wont take it through the phone, whether powered on or off. Thats what leads me to believe the battery itself is not bad. Its not practical for her to pull the battery to charge it, obviously. The phone detects the cable being plugged in and I can transfer files via usb cable to/from the computer no problem, so I'm fairly sure the Micro usb port is ok. Just refuses to charge.
A little lengthy but I'm at my wits end on this and really dont want to have her buy a $50 battery and then its a problem with the phone. I dont usually get stumped when it comes to fixing something but this one really has me. So if anybody can shed some light on this situation it would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I presumed you tried to wipe the battery stats via the battery calibration app? not that I think it would make a difference. another option is enable/disable USB debugging. you could also try charging into a PC or a different outlet (perhaps that outlet does not provide a good current)?
not really sure, just tossing out some ideas...
jco23 said:
I presumed you tried to wipe the battery stats via the battery calibration app? not that I think it would make a difference. another option is enable/disable USB debugging. you could also try charging into a PC or a different outlet (perhaps that outlet does not provide a good current)?
not really sure, just tossing out some ideas...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I actually installed cwm recovery just to wipe battery stats. Im assuming it works the same way but I'll give the app a try. I'll try anything at this point. Tried your other ideas already though and didnt make any difference.
I appreciate the input. I'll give that app a try and see if it does something different from wiping battery stats in recovery.
CallMeAria said:
I actually installed cwm recovery just to wipe battery stats. Im assuming it works the same way but I'll give the app a try. I'll try anything at this point. Tried your other ideas already though and didnt make any difference.
I appreciate the input. I'll give that app a try and see if it does something different from wiping battery stats in recovery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Doubt it. However, the issue seems to be with the hardware, and since it is not a software issue, Motorola could honor the warranty. Last resort would be to unroot and see if you can get an exchange.
Sent from my XT907 using xda app-developers app
have you tried a non moto cable? the one that came with my fone was total crap, would continuously connect and disconnect when i hooked it up to my comp or try to charge it, so i tried my old samsung cable and i didnt have any disconnect problems at all. just a suggestion
CallMeAria said:
I actually installed cwm recovery just to wipe battery stats. Im assuming it works the same way but I'll give the app a try. I'll try anything at this point. Tried your other ideas already though and didnt make any difference.
I appreciate the input. I'll give that app a try and see if it does something different from wiping battery stats in recovery.
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Click to collapse
Did you ever find a solution? I am having the same issues with my xt907.
What did you have it plugged in to? The fact that it said it was not charging indicates maybe you didn't have enough power coming through the charging port...
Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
uthkuknwme said:
have you tried a non moto cable? the one that came with my fone was total crap, would continuously connect and disconnect when i hooked it up to my comp or try to charge it, so i tried my old samsung cable and i didnt have any disconnect problems at all. just a suggestion
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Click to collapse
yeah I tried my Samsung cable as well.
jgramkow said:
Did you ever find a solution? I am having the same issues with my xt907.
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Click to collapse
No. Verizon finally sent her a refurb replacement. I got the battery to charge up by taking it out and rigging a charger to it. But the phone still wouldnt accept a charge with the battery back in and it lost the charge it did have 2-3 times faster than normal. Battery Stats also showed the battery was showing a pretty decent voltage so unless the battery itself has a low charge circuit that gets tripped I'd be hesitant to point to the battery itself. And the charger port transfered files just fine and the phone recognized when the charger was plugged in (would go from 'discharging' to 'not charging'. So yeah, I was left stumped. Hopefully somebody else can get this solved for you.
CallMeAria said:
yeah I tried my Samsung cable as well.
No. Verizon finally sent her a refurb replacement. I got the battery to charge up by taking it out and rigging a charger to it. But the phone still wouldnt accept a charge with the battery back in and it lost the charge it did have 2-3 times faster than normal. Battery Stats also showed the battery was showing a pretty decent voltage so unless the battery itself has a low charge circuit that gets tripped I'd be hesitant to point to the battery itself. And the charger port transfered files just fine and the phone recognized when the charger was plugged in (would go from 'discharging' to 'not charging'. So yeah, I was left stumped. Hopefully somebody else can get this solved for you.
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Click to collapse
Just an update: I ended up buying a replacement battery and it fixed the charging issue. I rsd back to stock. Then, playing around with it, I booted to bootloader and selected "Factory" and it immediately booted back to stock, but, the battery had a "?" again. Ready to throw the damn phone against the wall, I rebooted it. The "?" is mysteriously gone. What is the "Factory" setting? I think I tried it before, but had CM10.1 installed. My theory is that this "factory" boot from bootloader actually soft bricked the phone. Either that or the issue was truly the battery and simply replacing it fixed things. I am up and running now, cm10.1 is flawless, imho. Thanks for the quick reply and I hope this helps anyone with similar issues.
Beware of the "Factory" bootloader option...........
Here we go again. Upon a reboot into recovery. Recovery is twrp 2.5. What I notice is the motorola boot img takes an extremely long time (2 minutes) to turn off and cyanogenmod to begin. Could there be something corrupt in the bootloader? Is there any way to reload the bootloader on this device? Anyone have any ideas? Could it be Recovery?