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I know that when Android began development their focus was on apple and they wanted to compete with the iPhone. Which is a commmendable goal because the iphone ineluctably changed the mobile device world for the better. This makes me think Android has a lot they want to do with the stock ui and not just fixes to further stabilize the software but to give the UI a seeker look and add functionality.
On the other hand I've read here that Google just wants to make a stable UI available for companies like MOTO and HTC to skin and for developers to customize and improve.
Id like to think that Android has big plans for my new nexus one.
So do you guys think Google looks at HTC's sense and says " its all going according to plan, companies are taking our software and vastly improving it so we do the leg work and get our software on mass amounts of phones and manufacturers can customize it to their liking and their customer preferences" or do you think they say " wow HTC has really made phenomenal improvements on our software so we need to step up our game and make 2.2 and on more competitive"
I do understand its open source implying the intention for third party customization. but if android didnt want their own ui to be the preferred ui i don't think theyd even offer phones that way, i just hope android isnt stopping short on purpose to let developers put the finishing touches, thats a great option to have but id rather not be compelled to root.
I'm not saying android stock isn't very solid. Other than sense its the best ui available. I'm just trying to clarify whether android wants stable software by them at the heart of every mobile device and customized by those manufacturers or if they want android stock to be competitive in and of its self. Personally I'm hoping for the latter.
Your thoughts?
I don't know if their focus is so much of pushing people to make their own but more of focusing on the availability. They seem to want to always have the availability of customization and freedom. I think they see Sense UI as "Hey people actually love our work and are willing to spend days/months on working to make something of our product."
Unlike with Apple, they're like "WTF? You're not allowed to do this! No you can't see the specs of our phones you have to guess!!"
Unlike with Apple, they're like "WTF? You're not allowed to do this! No you can't see the specs of our phones you have to guess!!"
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touche.....
i can't see google having any problems with sense UI, any improvement is great. Anything that will make more people use android and use google's services, im sure they will be happy with. Somehow i don't think they are happy with the deals the other companies have made with bing and yahoo though.
DMaverick50 said:
but if android didnt want their own ui to be the preferred ui i don't think theyd even offer phones that way
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You're completely missing the point about why Google wants Android.
They don't care if the stock UI isn't the best or most popular.
They don't care about Blur.
They don't care about Sense UI.
You're missing the big picture here.
Every time you search...
Every time you use maps...
Every time you use voice input, Google Goggles, Gesture Search, Listen, etc.
Every time, they're collecting that data, selling it, using it to improve their services even more and thereby making even more profit on their improvement in services..
Mobile ads within apps, and elsewhere within the UI...
Not to mention taking a cut out of sold apps.
Nothing is free, especially not data, and you can bet your ass Google is cashing in on it since that's what they do best.
Stop thinking about the UI, and start thinking behind-the-scenes. Look at the big picture.
O
Paul22000 said:
You're completely missing the point about why Google wants Android.
They don't care if the stock UI isn't the best or most popular.
They don't care about Blur.
They don't care about Sense UI.
You're missing the big picture here.
Every time you search...
Every time you use maps...
Every time you use voice input, Google Goggles, Gesture Search, Listen, etc.
Every time, they're collecting that data, selling it, using it to improve their services even more and thereby making even more profit on their improvement in services..
Mobile ads within apps, and elsewhere within the UI...
Not to mention taking a cut out of sold apps.
Nothing is free, especially not data, and you can bet your ass Google is cashing in on it since that's what they do best.
Stop thinking about the UI, and start thinking behind-the-scenes. Look at the big picture.
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Click to collapse
I definitely understand what you're saying, that they want their software on as many devices as possible. That was actually the first of the two possibilities I offered. Officially google initially indicated they wanted to compete with apple (the second possibility I offered) and as a nexus owner I hoped for the second but it makes a lot more business sense to make their software/applications ubiquitous. And at the end of the day, google has a bottom line to worry about. So I guess in the end the manufacturers using android but customizing it probably offers a more thoughtful interface (though many, many prefer stock) but having stock android is more likely to receive updates fastest while some customized skins may not receive them period. Seems like a win-win for consumers regardless of android and Google's strategy.
I never saw Android as a competition to iPhone. There are huge differences between them. To start with, iPhone is a hardware and Android is an OS.
Android is not just targetted towards phone.. but also a more lucrative platform buisness. Android is targeted towards Windows and Linux and not iPhone.
Windows CE and Linux are pretty much the only choice for platforms. Many GPS units, car control systems, Controllers for many equipment etc.. are all Windows CE or custom linux. Android is targeting this market share. Therefore it is not surprising that Android has similiar policies like Win CE and linux to keep the core seperate from UI. Customers can choose their UI to adapt their implimentation. e.g. many of us don't even relaize that our car GPS has windows in it or our routers has linux in it.
Of course there are other advantages of controling a platform. They have been nicely sumarized by paul.
I think it is rather obvious that our problems with the X10 and SE can be attributed directly to SE UI's. If SE are not able to get their UI's stable enough to run with native Android revisions couldn't SE scrap them all together? Or, at least release their products native and offer their UXP down the road when they have been able to get what ever they add to run smoothly enough with current OS and features.
3rd party add-ons are ruining the Android experience. In it's current form I do not see any advantage to Android or SE. And, I am hoping now the WINMO7 will be great; since I am confident that my next device will not be Android or SE. I understand that this is not Googles fault, but as the end user suffering through the X10's lag, bugs, closed platform, lack of control ability, and lack of timely revisions (or any revisions for that fact), where is the Android advantage?
Right now it is the companies that have partnered with Google on Android who might wind up being responsible for Android's eventual demise.
I guess the only thing we can do is hope that rumors about Gingerbread not accepting 3rd party UI's is true. If not I can not see Android being anything more then 3rd rate in the future.
Are you still trying to flame-bait?
If all a company had to offer was the same stock experience as everyone else, it wouldn't have a product to market. Why do you think every major manufacturer has their own custom UI on top of Android?
I agree that a small, niche market for stock Android exists, but it won't be enough to carry a company's sales.
It's incredibly simple marketing.
Also, I find it incredibly telling that you've chosen to ignore the six or seven firmware updates the X10 has received.
fm1776 said:
I guess the only thing we can do is hope that rumors about Gingerbread not accepting 3rd party UI's is true. If not I can not see Android being anything more then 3rd rate in the future.
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If Android is not accepting 3rd party UI, then i throw Android away.
Having many selection that differentiate you and the other, that is the beauty of it man. One of the major turn off of iPhone for me is there is only single product, none offers with keyboard, same color, the UI is also is all the same. Like there is no difference between my iPhone and everyone's iPhone.
And i think the future of UXP is very bright compared to other Android device. When you pick up Samsung Galaxy S and play it side by side with your X10, you will know immediately which one is better.
Anyway, the point is full experience customization is a really wonderful thing to have.
That's why i choose to buy X10 and still prefer to use it even though its still 1.6. In my office desk i have a lot of other Android phone i can take for personal usage. Nexus One, Motorola Milestone and also Samsung Galaxy Spica, LG GW 620.
Most of them are faster and better then X10 in term of speed and because of Froyo, but whenever i take one home, i end up using X10 instead.
So conclusion its SE DEV fault that the update is delayed, but full 3rd party customization is the best thing you can have in your smartphone.
Hell, my friend is keep on whining that his iPhone doesn't have Swype and also complains about iPhone keyboard auto-correct, while i can install any onscreen keyboard for Android.
Here is one of hundreds of articles I found related to Gingerbread. So obviously there are plenty of people who see the OEM added skins as much of a problem as I do. And, from my personal experience with the X10 this hits the nail on the head.
http://www.dailytech.com/Android+30+Gingerbread+Launches+Q4+Will+Kill+Off+OEM+UI+Skins/article18897.htm
My user experience with the X10 has been anything but enjoyable. And, since this is my first and only Android experience it has left a bad taste in my mouth. I seriously doubt that I would consider another Android device without killing off OEM add-ons that interfere with OS revisions. Let's allow the manufacturers build the hardware and leave the OS's to companies that design it. Because it is all to obvious that SE for example do not know what they are doing when it comes to UI. Which is exactly why we are still waiting after over half a year for our revision.
This whole SE premise of them "improving the overall user experience" has seriously back fired on the X10.
If what is being said about Gingerbread is true I might consider giving Android another try. Though I doubt I would give SE another go.
fm1776 said:
Here is one of hundreds of articles I found related to Gingerbread. So obviously there are plenty of people who see the OEM added skins as much of a problem as I do. And, from my personal experience with the X10 this hits the nail on the head.
http://www.dailytech.com/Android+30+Gingerbread+Launches+Q4+Will+Kill+Off+OEM+UI+Skins/article18897.htm
My user experience with the X10 has been anything but enjoyable. And, since this is my first and only Android experience it has left a bad taste in my mouth. I seriously doubt that I would consider another Android device without killing off OEM add-ons that interfere with OS revisions. Let's allow the manufacturers build the hardware and leave the OS's to companies that design it. Because it is all to obvious that SE for example do not know what they are doing when it comes to UI. Which is exactly why we are still waiting after over half a year for our revision.
This whole SE premise of them "improving the overall user experience" has seriously back fired on the X10.
If what is being said about Gingerbread is true I might consider giving Android another try. Though I doubt I would give SE another go.
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Click to collapse
"The wealth of information was leaked by Mobile-review.com’s Eldar Murtazin in his Russian language/locale podcast "Digestiv.""
While the guy has a good track record, anything said about a non-existent OS can't be taken as fact.
Also, you seem to be the only person brutally raped by the X10 that, for some reason, keeps asking for more, soapfree. I don't understand why you post repeatedly about an OS and phone you claim to hate so much.
SE's UI is just a slap of blue over stock Android, with some widgets. Then you go and blame them when they want to make sure their update is bug-free (as it can be)? Would you rather they ship phones like the G2 that fall apart? Or that they ship 4 phones within two months that can't use GPS properly? SE's biggest problem is the in-call volume on certain phones is low and the Android version it's running is 1.6. There have been scattered reports of USB ports breaking, (probably more than G2's that are falling apart), and some issues that affect nearly all GSM/3G phones, namely APN and Network settings.
xeviro said:
If Android is not accepting 3rd party UI, then i throw Android away.
Having many selection that differentiate you and the other, that is the beauty of it man. One of the major turn off of iPhone for me is there is only single product, none offers with keyboard, same color, the UI is also is all the same. Like there is no difference between my iPhone and everyone's iPhone.
And i think the future of UXP is very bright compared to other Android device. When you pick up Samsung Galaxy S and play it side by side with your X10, you will know immediately which one is better.
Anyway, the point is full experience customization is a really wonderful thing to have.
That's why i choose to buy X10 and still prefer to use it even though its still 1.6. In my office desk i have a lot of other Android phone i can take for personal usage. Nexus One, Motorola Milestone and also Samsung Galaxy Spica, LG GW 620.
Most of them are faster and better then X10 in term of speed and because of Froyo, but whenever i take one home, i end up using X10 instead.
So conclusion its SE DEV fault that the update is delayed, but full 3rd party customization is the best thing you can have in your smartphone.
Hell, my friend is keep on whining that his iPhone doesn't have Swype and also complains about iPhone keyboard auto-correct, while i can install any onscreen keyboard for Android.
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Click to collapse
The SE added UI is what has killed the X10. So if you are asking SE to listened to you they would go out of business within a few short years. As of today the iphone4 is the best device on the market exactly for the reason that the are no 3rd party skins. I am not saying that this will be the case tomorrow. But as of today right now it is.
Timescape is a marketing ploy with little to no user interface. And, because of it you can not get support for full flash capabilities; 2.2 native is 1000 times better. On the other hand I like Media scape. But that is just because I own my own media files. Is Media scape really that much better than native? Or is it that much better than third party soft you could find on your own in Android market or, something user created here in XDA; that is if the X10 was really an open platform? A software that would not prevent your device getting the latest OS the day it is released. SE's entire objective it to offer you their skins that will lead you to their OEM created after market for media (just like apple). However, there are only a dozen movies, games, and songs to download there. At least with iphone4 you have itunes. How could you possibly want that? That is pure madness man. And, you said "Anyway, the point is full experience customization is a really wonderful thing to have." Where is the full customization in the X10? The X10 is locked down with little to no customization. It is a joke and I just laugh harder when people keeping mistakenly claim that this device is anything but a closed platform.
I like competition that comes from a free market system as much as the next guy. But SE are adding their UI's to remove that competition, not to add to it. And, X10 users are guinea pigs whilst they work out the details. It has a long way to go. And, why make their current customers suffer before they have their market in place? They are still trying to negotiate with the entertainment industry for goodness sake. It is a long , long way off mate. So, if you think you are getting some kind of magical benefit from SE skins you need to have your head examined.
There would be plenty to distinguish one device from the next without OEM added non-sense. Besides hardware (which SE also do not manufacture themselves), there is Android market. OEM's that want to stand out for the right reasons will need to start being true manufacturers and not simply some design company slapping together the same pieces of plastic everyone else is using and than adding some cheap skins that either don't even work right, or are simply a gimmick.
All these things that people use to criticize Apple for are what most users are really getting in non-apple phones. You are getting screwed by SE and lack the understand to even know that it is happening. I find that comical.
iead1 said:
"The wealth of information was leaked by Mobile-review.com’s Eldar Murtazin in his Russian language/locale podcast "Digestiv.""
While the guy has a good track record, anything said about a non-existent OS can't be taken as fact.
Also, you seem to be the only person brutally raped by the X10 that, for some reason, keeps asking for more, soapfree. I don't understand why you post repeatedly about an OS and phone you claim to hate so much.
SE's UI is just a slap of blue over stock Android, with some widgets. Then you go and blame them when they want to make sure their update is bug-free (as it can be)? Would you rather they ship phones like the G2 that fall apart? Or that they ship 4 phones within two months that can't use GPS properly? SE's biggest problem is the in-call volume on certain phones is low and the Android version it's running is 1.6. There have been scattered reports of USB ports breaking, (probably more than G2's that are falling apart), and some issues that affect nearly all GSM/3G phones, namely APN and Network settings.
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Just because you make a claim here in your post that the only thing bugging on the X10 is call volume does not make it so. There are plenty of bugs in this phone. SE added UI skins being the biggest one driving away customer right now. And, a whole host of others. But this thread is not about the X10's call volume, or screen lag, or battery life, or wifi, or any other bug. It is about the UXP, SE -vs- native, so let's try to stay on point. But if you want to start a thread about X10 bugs I would be happy ot contribute
iead1 said:
SE's UI is just a slap of blue over stock Android, with some widgets.
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I am quoting you twice because I would like to put this into perspective.
Xerviro says if if there are no OEM UI skins he would chuck the phone in the trash. You say the UI's are simply color schemes!
Why don't you both simply consider the iphone4 a different option with a different color scheme. Only one other difference. Theirs has itunes market and no 3rd party added UI skins getting in the way of updates whilst Android come out with a new OS every other week.
try to be at least remotely objective. Or, at least try to appear so.
UI = User Interface
"In computer science and human-computer interaction, the user interface (of a computer program) refers to the graphical, textual and auditory information the program presents to the user, and the control sequences (such as keystrokes with the computer keyboard, movements of the computer mouse, and selections with the touchscreen) the user employs to control the program."
The UI is the menu system, the home screen, app drawer, notification bar, ect.
You're talking more about Widgets and Apps like Timescape and Mediascape. There's a deliniating line. HTC's Sense and Samsung's Touchwiz are UIs because they take over how you interact with the phone. Timescape and Mediascape don't add anything to the basic User Interface. That is to say, if you removed them, the phone would act exactly the same. SE has failed miserably in making Timescape a UI. (Like the fact that the Timescape interface is not default when you turn on the phone).
Also, I want evidence of a new Android OS every other week. So far, in 2010, we've received minor OS updates 2.1, 2.2, and 2.2.1. Not exactly "every other week", or Operating Systems, seeing as we're currently in October. Edit: In comparison, Apple has released more firmware updates, and has it's flagship product still running on a version released over a year ago.
DailyTech said:
Another drastic change in Android 3.0 is that Google is killing off third-party user interface shells like Motorblur and HTC Sense, by offering a faster, superior alternative. The new built-in UI is reportedly similar to that seen in the Gallery app in this clip, with fluid animations and a photobook sort of feel to it.
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As I understand it and as another article (i can't remember where) says, Gingerbread doesn't prohibit third-party UI's, it just offers a UI which in their opinion makes them unnecessary. IF a phone company decides to change the UI nonetheless, it can still do it. How would you ban third-party UI's anyway since Android is completely Open Source?!
Edit: ah, here is the article i mentioned: http://www.intomobile.com/2010/06/16/android-to-focus-on-user-experience-with-gingerbread/
Android coming out with OS updates every few weeks has certainly put front and center some issues. I appreciate they are trying to get improvements of their product to the customers as quickly as possible. That is great service. What the end users are experience as a result of their improvments is simply high lighting a problem that has been around longer than they have.
And, that is the OEM UI skins. Which tend to be a gimmick that are not improving the over all customer experience in the slightest. This problem will most likely be less obvious next year when Android slow down the number of revisions they issue. However, unless something is done to block OEM UI add-ons it will continue to be a problem. People will always be frustraited waiting for OS revision and new features whilst the OEM's get their UI's to run smoothly with the next OS. By the way none of which is open source. It is all propriatary in nature.
This entire problem is created by the companies that have partnered with Google to support Android. And, SE is the worst offender. X10 customers are unfortunetly experiencing the most extreme case of this issue.
Until either Gingerbread, a newer Maemo, or winmo7 come out the safest device to own right now is the iphone4 to avoid these issues and the problems that come with it. It either has every single feature available in every our device on the market or offers a fair alternative. Without 3rd party add-ons deminishing the over all user experience. Come summer 2011 maybe this will no longer be true. But as things stand right now Android stink, for no fault of their own.
qwer23 said:
How would you ban third-party UI's anyway since Android is completely Open Source?!
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They would do it contractually. Open source is meant to be open source to the end user. And, not for the OEM to close with ridiculous UI's that offer no real end user benefits. The X10 is Android and it is NOT open source. So as things stands such much for the open source arguement.
I saw what you are saying about the android created UI's too. We can only hope. But as things are now Android will go out of business. Driven there by their own partners who were supporting their plat form.
fm1776 said:
Android coming out with OS updates every few weeks has certainly put front and center some issues. I appreciate they are trying to get improvements of their product to the customers as quickly as possible. That is great service. What the end users are experience as a result of their improvments is simply high lighting a problem that has been around longer than they have.
And, that is the OEM UI skins. Which tend to be a gimmick that are not improving the over all customer experience in the slightest. This problem will most likely be less obvious next year when Android slow down the number of revisions they issue. However, unless something is done to block OEM UI add-ons it will continue to be a problem. People will always be frustraited waiting for OS revision and new features whilst the OEM's get their UI's to run smoothly with the next OS. By the way none of which is open source. It is all propriatary in nature.
This entire problem is created by the companies that have partnered with Google to support Android. And, SE is the worst offender. X10 customers are unfortunetly experiencing the most extreme case of this issue.
Until either Gingerbread, a newer Maemo, or winmo7 come out the safest device to own right now is the iphone4 to avoid these issues and the problems that come with it. It either has every single feature available in every our device on the market or offers a fair alternative. Without 3rd party add-ons deminishing the over all user experience. Come summer 2011 maybe this will no longer be true. But as things stand right now Android stink, for no fault of their own.
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You're the wordiest troll ever.
2010:
Android version 2.1 - January 12
Android version 2.2 - May 20
Android version 2.2.1 - October 1
Please, please, please tell me how five month gaps qualify as "a few weeks". Not to mention 2.2.1 is just bug fixes.
What is proprietary? The OEM's UI? Well no duh! If HTC's Sense UI was Open Source, anyone could download it to their Android phone, and thus, defeat the purpose of selling phones based on uniqueness.
I really don't understand what your argument is here. Do you hate customization? Do you love customization? Do you hate open source? Windows Phone 7 and iOS4 seem to be up your alley. Leave Android to the people who like to tinker around.
fm1776 said:
They would do it contractually. Open source is meant to be open source to the end user. And, not for the OEM to close with ridiculous UI's that offer no real end user benefits. The X10 is Android and it is NOT open source. So as things stands such much for the open source arguement.
I saw what you are saying about the android created UI's too. We can only hope. But as things are now Android will go out of business. Driven there by their own partners who were supporting their plat form.
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Do you know the meaning of any word that you post on here?
Open Source has nothing to do with the end user in this case. Please educate yourself: http://arstechnica.com/old/content/...se-the-apache-software-license-over-gplv2.ars
iead1 said:
You're the wordiest troll ever.
2010:
Android version 2.1 - January 12
Android version 2.2 - May 20
Android version 2.2.1 - October 1
Please, please, please tell me how five month gaps qualify as "a few weeks". Not to mention 2.2.1 is just bug fixes.
What is proprietary? The OEM's UI? Well no duh! If HTC's Sense UI was Open Source, anyone could download it to their Android phone, and thus, defeat the purpose of selling phones based on uniqueness.
I really don't understand what your argument is here. Do you hate customization? Do you love customization? Do you hate open source? Windows Phone 7 and iOS4 seem to be up your alley. Leave Android to the people who like to tinker around.
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Click to collapse
Trolling is what you are doing on this thread.
Obviously I was exaggerating the the number of updates to high light the point; but you already know that. So no need to comment on your flaming.
When SE closed Android 1.6 they made it proprietary. Hence it is no longer open source. That means it is CLOSED and no different from winmo or ios.
Since the X10 is C.L.O.S.E.D and N.O.T open there is little to nothing customizable about it. Absolutely ZERO difference with an iphone4. Except at least with an apple you have itunes and the latest OS and features. With the X10 you have to deal with the interference from yhe OEM add-ons that accomplish nothing more than you could have already gotten from native android. And, you do not have the latest feature which the X10 does not support.
iead1 said:
Do you know the meaning of any word that you post on here?
Open Source has nothing to do with the end user in this case. Please educate yourself: http://arstechnica.com/old/content/...se-the-apache-software-license-over-gplv2.ars
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Click to collapse
The article you are included is absolutely correct. However, open source for software developement is not what I am speaking about and is a completely moot point as this is a total seperate topic.
Though, I think this could be a good topic for you to start in your own thread. I would be happy to contribute to this topic as well.
fm1776 said:
Since the X10 is C.L.O.S.E.D and N.O.T open there is little to nothing customizable about it. Absolutely ZERO difference with an iphone4. Except at least with an apple you have itunes and the latest OS and features. With the X10 you have to deal with the interference from yhe OEM add-ons that accomplish nothing more than you could have already gotten from native android. And, you do not have the latest feature which the X10 does not support.
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Click to collapse
So changing the entire home screen interface is "not customizable"? Adding any widget you can think is "not customizable"? Changing the on-screen keyboard to be anything you like is "not customizable"? Changing the lock screen is "not customizable"? Changing the default program for anything is "not customizable"? Can you do any of that with an iPhone? The only customization you get on the iPhone is wallpaper.
Hell, I have an iPod touch, and I'm artificially not allowed to update to the latest firmware. The internals in the first gen touch, first gen iPhone, iPhone 3G, and second gen iPod touch are all the same. Apple just says "Sorry, buy a new iPod".
Every commercial Android product is "closed", because the OEMs have added their own value-add to the base code to market it to consumers.
I'm trying really hard to play nice, but, when you say such silly things, it's really really difficult.
iead1 said:
Please, please, please tell me how five month gaps qualify as "a few weeks". .
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Click to collapse
Like I already stated I was simply exaggerating to express a point. This point hand absolutely nothing to do with a specific time line on Androids side.
But since you bring it up, let me explain my same point in your own terminology.
Android come out with an update every five months. But it take SE 12 month's or more to engineer their UI skins to the newer OS before it is released to the end user. And, this isn't even counting any extra time certain service providers might want to add their bit.
Well you and I just explained the exact same thing two different ways. So thank you for helping me make my point. I still think I already made it on my own, but thank you just the same.
Edit- Customization is the ability to first change the devices behavior. My X1 is by far more customizable than the X10. Heck my P910 was more "customizable" than the X10
Have to agree with iead.. Although I have no real experience of winmo, android on the x10 is massively more customizable than ios. There really is no comparison on this point they're so far apart..
Sent from my x10 using XDA and swype.
im_iceman said:
Have to agree with iead.. Although I have no real experience of winmo, android on the x10 is massively more customizable than ios. There really is no comparison on this point they're so far apart..
Sent from my x10 using XDA and swype.
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Click to collapse
Well, first let me say that my thread is about 3rd party UI's -vs- native android. So if we could start to return to the subject it would be appreciated.
As for your comment. I am listening to how you precieve the X10 as being more customizable than any other device. You mentioned ios, Please tell us what you find less or more customizable about either, feel free to be absolutely specific? Oh yeah and which model you had?
As for everyone else could you please get back on topic. If there is demand for the customization iead could start that topic too. I will happily come contribute.
After looking at Android's fragmentation, the pain that one has to go through for every damn update is really getting to me! Google has really screwed this one up big time...its funny to even see the number of different screen sizes, hardware configurations android is being used. No standardization makes it a nightmare for developers to write applications that are consistent. Its hard to imagine that google has been so short sighted!
Asus is surely a brilliant company to have come out with a great tablet (and their newer tabs are kick ass too at great price points). But its really bothersome if I'm always in some sort of dependence on the manufacturer to release OS updates - this is just plain crazy! If Google's aim of ICS was to converge all devices to use the same OS, then why aren't they supporting manufacturers or insisting on all manufacturers to push out an update?
To start things, Google has really messed up their long term roadmap with fragmentation issues...and I would expect a company of that scale to atleast put in some sort of contractual commitments with all its manufacturing partners to roll out updates to its customers within a given timeline.
Here is what I would expect Google to have implemented yesterday, if they really need to retain popularity towards Android and keep it growing -
1. No more fragmentation moving forward. Standardization of screen resolutions, minimum performance requirements, ram, storage requirements etc.
2. Device manufacturers must commit to issuing software updates within some timeline from when google has an update.
3. Manufacturers dont decide if the update can run on their device or not - it must be google who decides this, and should be decided based on hardware specs
Now with Windows 8 on the horizon, I would definitely wait it out and move over to a Windows 8 based tablet. Knowing Microsoft, they're perhaps the only company who invests a lot of time and thinking in getting things right. It shows clearly from their development tools/platform, their emulators, clean implementation rather than an iterative approach etc.
Last android tablet for sure! And I'm hoping windows phone 7 will mature too, and its windows 8 variant should be a lot more promising. Thats when I would phase out my Galaxy S and head back to MS
What are your thoughts people?
cheers,
San
dreamtheater39 said:
Knowing Microsoft, they're perhaps the only company who invests a lot of time and thinking in getting things right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
haha, you made my day XD ...btw. throwing the word "vista" into the ring ^^
coming to win8. i just read an article today that the arm version of windows is most likely not able to run desktop programs. asuming that: WOOOOOW, Windows 8
If you prefer a monolithic OS to the liberty you get with Android that's your choice.
Personally, I do not. I do not like being locked into one vendor who gets to decide how I use my device.
I like having a choice between a smartphone, a 7", 8.9", 10.1" or even 11.5" tablet, or even a laptop that I can run the same OS (Android) on.
I love the Transformer. I have one device that is truly a tablet and, with root, also serves the full functionality of a laptop. What can Windows offer me that does this? What can iOS offer me that can replace my Transformer?
And that's besides the fact that with a Windows device I'm stuck with an OS that I am familiar with the shortcomings of, and unable to do anything about. Or with iOS that, again, no one can fix but the manufacturer (if they feel like it).
Yes, fragmentation of the Android platform is a bit of a problem. The Market addresses this, somewhat, by only showing software you can install on your device. Most Android devs are sensitive to their customer's needs and a polite email is frequently responded to positively, and usually with a fix in short order.
Frankly, I consider the fragmented markets (GetJar, Market, Amazon App Store, etc) to be a far larger problem than fragmentation of the OS, and I don't consider that to be anywhere close to a large problem.
Hmmm my thoughts
1. They have set an agreement with there partners. A new timeline that they must update devices within a set life span for a device think it was around a year and a half have a google on it. (p.s year and a half aint bad considering how fast mobile tech is moving)
2. It should not be a problem for devs to write apps for ics and the differences in hardware are accounted for
3. ms well thought out vista ms dos longhorn??? ms dos was not future thinking and very short sighted especially in terms of ram!!!!!! if anyone remembers vista was a plain mess!! and longhorn didnt even meet the public. Not to mention the many other flaws or screw ups (anyone remember xp early days it was hackers heaven)
4. At its roots android is linux google the track record for updates and security between ms and linux then whie you're at it google how many servers in the world run linux compared to ms
5. The biggest flaw of all ms was a single user platform a pc the first pc they now want to make it multi user and move toward cloud computing etc etc linux has been doing this for years so inherantly android can do the same ms on the other hand is having to kick there own ass so hard bills teeth have been replaced with hes toe nails
6. I like win 8 and 7 for one reason gamming and a couple programs i just cant get otherwise but as soon as i can do these things elsewhere or linux based i will.
You do have good points but i just wanted to step in as the other side of the coin.
Sent from my tf Enigmatic V2 beta 1.65Ghz Panda.test cust kernel settings
If you really want to be assured you can run everything on every device I suggest you look at Apple. The iPad will continue to be the dominate tablet for years to come and then you can be assured that everything will be packaged nicely and controlled in the manner decreed in Cupertino.
Open source means a trading a messier support structure for more innovation, and is not for everyone.
blestsol said:
Just leave please and get your ipad.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Enough said, whining isn't usefull here.
Seriously what do you want us to say? Good writting nice information, thanks for the info!!
I mean wtf?
Reported the thread.
Klau you do relise where XDA stands for and what the DEVELOPERS word means behind it?
XDA is for developing and helping people when they want to use costum roms or other non officeal related subjects
If you are unsatisfied with a device use the offical forum of ASUS, thats the right place!
Are any of the responses written by a mod?
So since when did everyone get appointed the responsibility to decide what is allowed to be discussed on this board, which isn't even the developer forum, it's on the general forum.
If you don't think the topic is relevant to you, just don't enter it. Let the mod do their job.
---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------
blestsol said:
Ooc, you don't agree of disagree... Why you responding? People use words wrong so much... Fan boy? Man you reaching. Foh. You sick of something ignore it and take your own advice. Dip from the thread. Simple ass that for your simple ass.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Learn to read, I said if you disagree, state your reason.
I've stated my reason of disagreement regarding the unfriendly atmosphere of this board.
You're grasping at straws that don't exist look who's reaching lol
klau1 said:
Are any of the responses written by a mod?
So since when did everyone get appointed the responsibility to decide what is allowed to be discussed on this board, which isn't even the developer forum, it's on the general forum.
If you don't think the topic is relevant to you, just don't enter it. Let the mod do their job.
---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------
Learn to read, I said if you disagree, state your reason.
I've stated my reason of disagreement regarding the unfriendly atmosphere of this board.
You're grasping at straws that don't exist look who's reaching lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't disagree. My post said what I meant. What he was describing is what ios can give him. Please show where my fan boy thoughts are though. In my short sentence.
I'll wait for that though.
Sent from my ADR6425LVW using xda premium
silversx80 said:
Oh, the irony :
Here's the thing, the OP is an open-ended criticism on things the android community praises about the android platform. Praising those things does not make one a fanboy, nor does calling one a fanboy render an ages-old demotivational poster anything less than a sophomoric response in the hopes that a chuckle will sway the reader over to your point of view.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, face palm has always been my actual sentiment about the responses here, and pictures help prevents a large post from getting ignored.
silversx80 said:
Someone criticizes the platform as a whole, one which others really enjoy (including myself), and makes the declaration that they're moving over to another, which is much better. Their assessment is based only on opinionated observations from their point of view, which is hardly an inconvenience to anyone else. Of course they're going to get a "get the f*ck out" response, and deserve nothing less. It's like when the Christians invaded the Turks and tried to convert the entire group of people.
It brings up the ages-old motherly line of wisdom: If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all.
There is nothing wrong with desiring something that is better for your uses, but use that as a premise. Don't start by lambasting the opposition, especially when you know what the system is about and you know the offerings of the competition. Some people may actually enjoy the things you don't.
In my opinion, ALL of the devises and software are AMAZING when you consider what the all do.
Instead, we get a bunch of non-contributing, product-zero, whiny little girls. You know what, that's fine; next time you think of complaining, go make your own. As soon as yours is better, then you can complain about other offerings.
Until then, STFU and GTFO.
P.S. If android will be more successful as a standardized platform, we'll see it move that way. I write that with reservation, as android is currently the #1 mobile platform in the world, so they must be doing something right... much to the chagrin of the OP.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look, every reasonably intelligent person understands trade-off exist. Simply one comes to mind:
can a "God be powerful enough to create a rock so heavy that even it can't lift it?"
Usability comes at the expense of functionality, everyone should understand that.
But people forget that sometimes, not a big deal, just explain it to them instead of acting like an internet bully. That doesn't help your point across.
silversx80 said:
It brings up the ages-old motherly line of wisdom: If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because you disagree with the OP doesn't mean it was not "nice" or offensive
lol's were had reading this thread.
klau1 said:
Just because you disagree with the OP doesn't mean it was not "nice" or offensive
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude, basically what he did was akin to going over to VW Vortex, complaining about all the reasons why his little 2.5 Golf was not like the current offerings from Toyota, and said that when the new Hondas come out, he's getting one of those.
There is no purpose in his post other than to demean and criticize. There is nothing productive, nor contributory about it. No, I didn't have to read, nor post, but I felt compelled.
If someone want's to leave for a better personal option, that's fine. If they want to make a scene and flip the table on the way out, then they shouldn't expect a positive reception to their announcement.
As much as I hate Apple, I do think that progress requires contrast. What do I mean? We need a solidified company like Apple that keeps pushing the same standard but slightly better (that's like peer-reviewed science). We need a looser society of innovators like Google's associates who play around at the edges of what we expect at the moment (who are like fringe scientists, some contribute great genius ideas, and some who completely **** it up). For me, I like the fringe scientist; I understand the need for peer-review, but I think I'll stick with Android for at least the next tablet too.
A WARNING FROM THE MODERATOR
A WARNING FROM THE MODERATOR
Play nice..........
talk nice ........
Or you will be banned.......
And I will close the thread
To those who reported this bad behavior, thank you
Keep it civil, Folks
Thanks ~ oka1 Moderator
Did they demo a Windows 8 ARM device at CES? I am very curious as to how Windows 8 will perform.
This is a very interesting project that could either excel if developers jump onboard, or crash horribly if developers reject the idea of Windows on ARM.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk
Interesting feedback from all you guys!
Just to clear things out, from where i come from -
-I've always loved android for the flexibility it gives me. I've always made custom roms, modded the hell out of every device i've ever had, starting way back from the Pocket PC days! Android - seemed like the most perfect option for me.
-I've always stayed away from Apple, for a myriad of reasons - they dictate everything, and i hate that. And also, i hate being in the bucket of half wit fanboys who bought one just to be "cool"
-I work for one of the biggest game companies, and i'm responsible for technology direction for smartphones, tablets. So, let me tell you what this looks like from a developer's view point -
A game is always written for iOS first - reason being, the platform is standardized in terms of display resolutions, hardware capabilities. Testing effort is extremely low in comparison (you dont have to test on a 100 devices!)
You have only 2 aspect ratios to deal with - phone & tablet. And you know that your game will run on all the iphones and ipads floating in the world. So this makes it easy from development & testing points of view. And this is the reason why games are "always" developed for iOS first.
Now the fun begins - once the game is done and is out on iTunes, there are large conversion teams which takes care of getting it to run on android phones and tablets. You have to see the hardware inventory we have here - so manyyyy android phones and tablets - and all of these have to be tested to give it a QA greenlight. Even when devices have the same hardware specs, each device behaves differently at times because the manufacturers have written different drivers specific to the device!
And then now, we have honeycomb and ICS - the screen has a static status bar in the bottom which takes away 48 pixels from your screen! Suddenly, your game needs to factor odd resolutions of 1280x752, 1232x800, 1024x552, etc etc. This means - redesigning all your game menus, UI, dialogs so that they dont leak out of the screen - crazy load of work! And then - you can have ONLY ONE APK to support ALL THESE resolutions and hardware configurations!
And then finally to top it all, you have several different market places, custom roms to test on, devices that the developer blacklists because of incompatibility - bypasses blacklisting on the market place because of a custom rom/hack...and he ends up playing the game giving us bad ratings!
The list is endless! I really feel this should not be the case for such a huge platform coming from a really big ass company! Honestly, i feel android made it big because it came in at the right time when the hardware side of things was at a great level - allowing them to give super slick graphics. And they had no other competition (windows mobile was too old, and the other was just iOS). They just got lucky, went without a clear plan - and iteratively refined and fixed things.
Atleast now, I feel Google should really accelerate its efforts towards some form of convergence. Look at the variance that a developer needs to take care of - different hardware configs/specs (ram, storage, processor!) - performance wise, different screen resolutions (a 100 different combinations! literally!), custom roms/modding, different manufacturer driven hardware/software customization, a zillion different OS versions, and so on. All this has to be factored, and we can have only 1 apk! And then finally, the provided android emulator that they provide - is soooo damn sorry, its not even funny. The emulator is literally like a slide show on my really powerful desktop - forget trying to use the built in emulator for developing games!
At the end, the platform lives because of the number of developers who support it. If customers dont have newer and better experiences coming - they would shift boats - its as simple. Making it harder for developers is just shooting yourself in the foot!
-San
dreamtheater39 said:
At the end, the platform lives because of the number of developers who support it. If customers dont have newer and better experiences coming - they would shift boats - its as simple. Making it harder for developers is just shooting yourself in the foot!
-San
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a huge problem with this statement, and pretty much the rest of your post. They are not a valid presumptions.
First, the developer and platform support each other. The platform does not live because the developer supports it... I'd argue that it's the other way around, but still a 2-way street. Without the platform, the developer cannot develop.
Second, games from the big developers may be released on iOS first, and some may be released on Android first. Without references, your statement in invalid. If you're only referring to your company, then specify that.
Third, screen resolution (and other oddities) may be a contributing factor in some app developers not bringing iOS apps to Android, but the vetting process of the Apple App Store discourages other developers from even trying to release anything onto iOS. Some devs don't even want to program things for iOS based on principle (and visa versa).
Fourth, the whole reason big mobile-platform app developer companies exist is to make money. Why alienate more than 50% of the market because of screen resolution? That would be lazy and counter-productive to profits.
Fifth, one could argue that it's not the big-time devs who got each platform off the ground, but the small-time devs, who released their apps for free. It wasn't the gaming capabilities that sold Android and iOS early on; that's a very narrow perspective.
Sixth, Android isn't being shot in the proverbial foot by different market places, those particular devices may be. The Nook and Kindle Fire come to mind, but keep in mind that those were sold on the premise that they're electronic readers first, that happen to run a modified version of Android.
I feel that you're upset over Android making it harder for you to earn a paycheck. I understand the challenges involved, but I think you're not looking at the big picture.
I moved to Windows Mobile phones from Palm devices because I wanted better synching with my computer, use of the .Net framework, and ease of customization ability. Turned out that WM was not intuitive on my early phones.
I moved from WM to webOS. Loved it. It was intuitive, smooth and reliable. Customization wasn't very easy, but I didn't care. Also, it had support of the big app developers and had some pretty good games too. Unfortunately, it didn't have support of the small-time app devs because of the difficulty writing apps for it. Where is it now?
From there, I knew that webOS was going to be short-lived, so I moved to Android. No, it's not as stable as iOS or webOS, but it is still a great OS. Small devs can get a chance in the app market, along with big-time devs who write cross-platform.
Windows 8 may be a great platform, but the big picture is that there is no cult-following for Microsoft as there is for Apple. What they need to do is give potential-customers options. Those options need to range from inexpensive, to top of the line. Different hardware, in other words (a nightmare for devs). If they don't, and since they don't have a die-hard following, I suspect it wont gain as much ground as Android did, or even webOS.
Apple has a good customer base, and knows what that customer wants. It's an easy sell. Windows customers are far too diverse and can't accept a blanket-type device range to cover all the wants and needs like Apple customers can. Android addresses those customers by providing options because it's an open architecture. Fragmentation sucks for the devs, but the user doesn't care because the typical user only has one device. Those users are why the devs exist at all.
To sum up, I think three things:
1. Your assessment of Android's shortcomings are somewhat short-sighted and not applicable to the big picture. The user wants the experience of the phone, not the apps. Apps are just noise now, with hundreds doing the same thing.
2. Your arguments are falling on deaf ears, or ears that cannot do anything about your complaints (i.e. I don't think Android's authors are reading this thread with much merit).
3. Your arguments would be better suited in the iOS, or Windows 8 sub-forums.
I was thinking about the horror of all the different Android devices when looking at them from a Dev's point of view (which I am NOT) so I appreciate your openness and insight.
The main reason why I will stay away from an iOS tablet for a long time is simply that the interface on a tablet needs to be more flexible than simply arranging icons to start apps. In other words, as long as iOS does not support widgets there's no appeal to me to buy an Apple tablet. Very narrow-minded, I know. Having an iPh*one (3GS) is not optimal but I am still waiting for an Android phone that intrigues me and is NOT linked to VZW.
dreamtheater39 said:
Interesting feedback from all you guys!
Just to clear things out, from where i come from -
-I've always loved android for the flexibility it gives me. I've always made custom roms, modded the hell out of every device i've ever had, starting way back from the Pocket PC days! Android - seemed like the most perfect option for me.
-I've always stayed away from Apple, for a myriad of reasons - they dictate everything, and i hate that. And also, i hate being in the bucket of half wit fanboys who bought one just to be "cool"
-I work for one of the biggest game companies, and i'm responsible for technology direction for smartphones, tablets. So, let me tell you what this looks like from a developer's view point -
A game is always written for iOS first - reason being, the platform is standardized in terms of display resolutions, hardware capabilities. Testing effort is extremely low in comparison (you dont have to test on a 100 devices!)
You have only 2 aspect ratios to deal with - phone & tablet. And you know that your game will run on all the iphones and ipads floating in the world. So this makes it easy from development & testing points of view. And this is the reason why games are "always" developed for iOS first.
Now the fun begins - once the game is done and is out on iTunes, there are large conversion teams which takes care of getting it to run on android phones and tablets. You have to see the hardware inventory we have here - so manyyyy android phones and tablets - and all of these have to be tested to give it a QA greenlight. Even when devices have the same hardware specs, each device behaves differently at times because the manufacturers have written different drivers specific to the device!
And then now, we have honeycomb and ICS - the screen has a static status bar in the bottom which takes away 48 pixels from your screen! Suddenly, your game needs to factor odd resolutions of 1280x752, 1232x800, 1024x552, etc etc. This means - redesigning all your game menus, UI, dialogs so that they dont leak out of the screen - crazy load of work! And then - you can have ONLY ONE APK to support ALL THESE resolutions and hardware configurations!
And then finally to top it all, you have several different market places, custom roms to test on, devices that the developer blacklists because of incompatibility - bypasses blacklisting on the market place because of a custom rom/hack...and he ends up playing the game giving us bad ratings!
The list is endless! I really feel this should not be the case for such a huge platform coming from a really big ass company! Honestly, i feel android made it big because it came in at the right time when the hardware side of things was at a great level - allowing them to give super slick graphics. And they had no other competition (windows mobile was too old, and the other was just iOS). They just got lucky, went without a clear plan - and iteratively refined and fixed things.
Atleast now, I feel Google should really accelerate its efforts towards some form of convergence. Look at the variance that a developer needs to take care of - different hardware configs/specs (ram, storage, processor!) - performance wise, different screen resolutions (a 100 different combinations! literally!), custom roms/modding, different manufacturer driven hardware/software customization, a zillion different OS versions, and so on. All this has to be factored, and we can have only 1 apk! And then finally, the provided android emulator that they provide - is soooo damn sorry, its not even funny. The emulator is literally like a slide show on my really powerful desktop - forget trying to use the built in emulator for developing games!
At the end, the platform lives because of the number of developers who support it. If customers dont have newer and better experiences coming - they would shift boats - its as simple. Making it harder for developers is just shooting yourself in the foot!
-San
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought the name of the game was resolution independence, designing your UI's without depending on absolute values but rather relative values and taking into account resolution size, using DP measurement units instead of PX. The last time I worked on an app was a while ago but even then the app scaled fine from something as small as a Droid 2 to something as large (was large at the time) as a Nook Color or a Galaxy Tab.
So are you saying Apple has it better because they only have two screen sizes? Who cares if there are fifty different screen sizes and fifty different resolutions? If you design your UI and your app correctly with resolution independence in mind it should scale well to most if not every resolution and every aspect ratio shouldn't it?
Even when devices have the same hardware specs, each device behaves differently at times because the manufacturers have written different drivers specific to the device!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you referring to certain things like how device GPU's vary and therefore certain texture compression methods in OpenGL for example only work with ATI GPU's and not PowerVR GPU's and vice versa?
I do agree that fragmentation exists but only between Android versions such as those running 1.5, 1.6, 2.2, 3.0, 4.0, etcetera but you can deal with this. I doubt they'll standardize hardware. Maybe screen sizes, maybe screen resolutions but manufacturers are there to make money, not play equal to every other manufacturer. If HTC wants to release a better phone with a better resolution to make more money Google isn't going to tell them to do otherwise. The only reason this is different with Apple is because Apple is the only one making hardware for their iOS so there are no companies fighting over each other for profits. They can control the whole platform. Obviously with Android you have multiple hardware manufacturers and they're not all part of the same company, they're looking to make profits over each other and that means devices have varying features. That's just how Android is unless Google makes their own devices and restricts Android to Google devices.
I think I would like the idea of uniformity better too, not as strict as Apple but certain things being the same across all vendors. We're heading that way in a sense since Google is requiring all ICS devices to support the Holo theme. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future we get more restrictions from Google but as for forcing manufacturers to make certain hardware? That I truly doubt. Google has made it possible to work with different devices by allowing you to query for different device features such as checking for a keyboard or a trackball or an accelerometer, use resolution independent practices such as DP measurements and relative positioning, it's not as bad as it seems IMO.
different hardware configs/specs (ram, storage, processor
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So? What developer hasn't had to deal with this on virtually every system developed on since the origin of computing? Because Apple managed to create an illusion that this is irrelevant by making a handful of devices with fixed hardware and therefore only having to achieve acceptable performance on those devices? Make the decision to alienate those who don't fit the requirements. Alienating a certain group from support isn't going to be the end of the world. Games are sure to use Tegra 3 and those without Tegra 3 devices might be assed out if the game can't scale down. The world continues...
Tubular said:
I thought the name of the game was resolution independence, designing your UI's without depending on absolute values but rather relative values and taking into account resolution size, using DP measurement units instead of PX. The last time I worked on an app was a while ago but even then the app scaled fine from something as small as a Droid 2 to something as large (was large at the time) as a Nook Color or a Galaxy Tab.
So are you saying Apple has it better because they only have two screen sizes? Who cares if there are fifty different screen sizes and fifty different resolutions? If you design your UI and your app correctly with resolution independence in mind it should scale well to most if not every resolution and every aspect ratio shouldn't it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course, a lot of work is done to make things resolution independent. But this is not always easy when you want to have some really complex games designed which is heavy on 2D UI. Full screen dialog boxes, Floating UI options etc. are all part of many big game titles developed and ends up being incredibly hard to port across multiple resolutions/aspect ratios. Try looking at some of the user reviews on games - people complain about the smallest of things and randomly throw in a 1 star rating. For a development company, ratings are everything. If your app gets low ratings, it goes unnoticed and thereby killing your chances of earning decent revenues for breaking even - let alone profitability! The cost of development goes up due to higher requirements for development & testing (multiple devices and other fragmentation issues).
Are you referring to certain things like how device GPU's vary and therefore certain texture compression methods in OpenGL for example only work with ATI GPU's and not PowerVR GPU's and vice versa?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Several things here - PVR textures, many open gl calls behave differently on certain devices - for instance the filtering doesnt work as expected on the samsung line of devices because they have their own driver tweaks applied, some devices crash out on a minor opengl warning, while the other devices ignore and continue to run etc. The point here is, you cant see it running on 1 "TYPE" of device which represents a family (same res, performance specs) and assume it will run on the rest. You can release and iteratively respond to user feedback - but you risk getting low ratings and then your game gets buried under.
So? What developer hasn't had to deal with this on virtually every system developed on since the origin of computing? Because Apple managed to create an illusion that this is irrelevant by making a handful of devices with fixed hardware and therefore only having to achieve acceptable performance on those devices? Make the decision to alienate those who don't fit the requirements. Alienating a certain group from support isn't going to be the end of the world. Games are sure to use Tegra 3 and those without Tegra 3 devices might be assed out if the game can't scale down. The world continues...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
[/QUOTE]
When you build games, the objective is to provide the best graphics to the end user with excellent gameplay. Now, if i have to support several hardware configurations i either have a fallback mechanism to have lower quality on lower device (more dev effort, more costs, more testing), or reduce overall quality of graphics all across (bad quality game - low ratings, low revenues), blacklist lower specced devices (killing potential market share - cutting total revenues, risking break even). This becomes extremely critical especially because the games and apps are sold for a measly $1 and every sale is important!
silversx80 said:
Second, games from the big developers may be released on iOS first, and some may be released on Android first. Without references, your statement in invalid. If you're only referring to your company, then specify that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not all developers need to follow this. But any large sized company will invariably follow this approach - mainly from the point of view of monetization. Right now, the fact is, Android is yet not a platform where the big bucks come from. Its still unfortunately the damn fruit company. And the sheer fact about the difficulty in have a game run on android is a deterrent to release on android first. Its much easier to finish a game for ios, throw it on the marketplace, and quickly see how the game did. If people like it, and you made decent revenues, then you could expand to android - which would take a lot more time, money, effort.
Fourth, the whole reason big mobile-platform app developer companies exist is to make money. Why alienate more than 50% of the market because of screen resolution? That would be lazy and counter-productive to profits.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
true, and thats what i mean by the effort it takes on testing and development makes it a costlier bet! Imagine the capital investment - to house all the phones to test on!
I feel that you're upset over Android making it harder for you to earn a paycheck. I understand the challenges involved, but I think you're not looking at the big picture.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I barely find it hard to earn my paycheck Its my company which has to invest the $$$ to get every game out of the door to hit android markets! And just seeing all the chaos involved in shipping an android title, just makes me wonder why google has made this so complicated! If i have to think from the perspective of having my own startup company making android games - it would give me shivers! Not all companies have the lucky streak of Rovio and those few company that i could handcount.
-San
I currently have two tablet: ASUS Transformer and new iPad. I am writing an article on the Android vs iOS (only the operating system).
I would like to hear users' opinions about why you chose Android, or do you own both? What is good or bad is in Android/iOS. What Apple/Google is doing better than Apple/Google. If your answer is, Apple is crap, do not bother to comment.
Andoid: Open source
iOS: closed source with limited functionality.
Enough said.
People hold strong opinions so watch out because this article will flame like hell. I will say that Apple is crap, but I will explain why I say this. Given the freedom of Android, I'd choose nothing else. Given the advanced level of control over your device, I'd choose nothing else. Given the open source availability of our beloved OS, I'd choose nothing else. Given the diverse choice of apps on the Play Store and the larger amount of free apps, I'd choose nothing else. Aside from that sort of stuff, Apple's BS just plain ticks me off. How these a-holes can actually try to monopolize the technology industry and file all of these lawsuits against their competitors (not to mention the fact that they are being goddamned hipsters and trying to claim that they invented the slide-to-unlock and face unlock features... I'm truly surprised they haven't dug up the inventor of the wheel and tried to sue him). Samsung, Google, and all of their competitors are forking out an arm and a leg to lawyers. Sorry if I seem like I'm pissy, I just don't like the fact that Apple is trying to ruin Android, when it's so beautiful.
This is my Tapatalk 2 signature. Rockin' the app on my Nook Color running ICS 4.0.4, courtesy of Dalingrin, Fattire, and our other beloved XDA weenies (nemith, keyodi, arcee, hacdan, etc.)
Hi!!,
I currently have iPad 1stGen and TF101
I just decide to change to Android becouse of many mods and tweaks i can do (open source), it's very funny for me, and with patience and read, you can play withot kill your data.
I have to say that iOS (Without jailbreak) is boring for me. But iOS have a year of advantage versus android, in terms of quality and performance hardware-software, and they sell more devices, and more, and more, so they have more customers, more potential buyers and much more money to spend.
Both are similar, a store... a developer community... the fact is that in a future, I think one cannot survive without the other. And android is growing too!.
rjarl
Goatshocker said:
Andoid: Open source
iOS: closed source with limited functionality.
Enough said.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure if that's a benefit to the end user.
Some would argue that android is buggy and has low quality apps because it's so "open", while apples tight reign over the iOS ecosystem ensures a reliable, consistent and high-quality experience for the user.
Honestly, the "average person" doesn't give a damn about open or closed source. They just want something that works with minimal fuss, and that's why Apple can sell more iPads in a week than all Android manufacturers can in a quarter.
I love android because it can do everything I need it to do. My wife loves iOS because it allows her to do everything she wants it to do. The difference is that I'm always maintaining my Android devices, that is, I'm always monitoring the battery or checking for excess wake locks or apps that don't play nice, which she doesn't have to worry about those things at all.
Both are around to suits difference preference in term of functionality, design and fashioned for end users like us..
Some really like to customised, root, flashing and all those freedom you would get in Android world but some doesn't bother and use what the gadget has to offer officially and some just follow others or the latest technology without knowing what best..
I have a friend who just follow and get what others have. Everybody in the office bought iPad and so does she but all she knows and do is playing the build-in facebook mini games.. Jailbreaking an iPad/iPhone wouldn't be as good as rooting an Android devices ..
I choose Android both phone and tablet for the easy customise(root, CWM and custom roms) and the ability to connect to PC as removable drive without needing another program to run..
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using XDA Premium HD app
I love my android tablet. The flexibility is key for me. Maybe the average user doesn't care about open source, but the average user could care about things like, widgets, different keyboards, customization of the homescreens. For me I like, and pick my android products based on the development community around it. I had a G-tablet first, now an asus slider. And I own an HTC incredible, running ICS, something it was never thought it would be able to do, and its all because there is a great community around it.
farsight73 said:
.... the ability to connect to PC as removable drive without needing another program to run..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 to that, one of his greats features!!!! just like a removable disk
Need to ask question in other venues. Asking here is like asking if you should buy a chevy truck on a ford truck forum.
I use both. The IOS platform is largely an application launcher. As such it has some limitations on it's functionality. This is by design to make it easy for new users to learn and use, and most of all remember. The ISO interface is very clean and simple and was built by some amazing designers. Given the numbers of IOS users it is obvious this strategy of clean design and simplicity has worked.
Android looks very much like what I see in a lot of application designed by developers. It has a lot of developer centric features such as extensive settings and customizations. The UI has some behaviors that must be learned and remembered to operate effectively. One example is press and hold to get to additional functionality.
Because it was developed by developer instead of UI designers, Android is more feature rich. It makes extensive use of multi-tasking and multi-threading. Also, Intents makes functionality sharing and extensions to the UI such as different keyboards very easy. But, this also increases the complexity
At the end of the day neither system is right or wrong. They are just right for different sets of users.
- IOS is easy to learn and remember. Everything works by apps and you can press one button to get back to familiarity of home. This restricts the options you have in apps which is perfect for a more casual user.
- Android allows for complex UIs which can let users interact with apps in complex manners. This can result in a very powerful app, or a complex mess. But, this is the type of apps and Android is the type of OS that power users want.
Jerry
The question Android vs iOS is same Linux vs Windows...
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium
I've owned both iOS and Android devices. I'm currently using an iPad2 64GB 3G. Android has the potential to be a great tablet OS, but as it stands currently it's just too much of a mess IMHO. In order of importance (too me) I feel that display, followed by OS stability, functionality, developer support, and customization are the deciding factors in choosing a device. The custom ROMS within the Android camp are nice (I primarily used the Revolver ones), however all the goodness that ICS was suppose to bring about fizzled. Perhaps the communities expectations were high. The TF201 (which i tried and returned) was rushed to market for bragging rights (Quad Core and Ice Cream), while overlooking so many design flaws (MicroSD Slot, WiFi performance, GPS, colour saturation, and most importantly OS Stability). In addition ASUS position on locking the unit down means that those wishing to try a Developers ROM are forced to void their warranty. So what do I miss now in iOS? Well widgets are the biggest thing. Those and live wallpapers tho I'd bet chew into one's battery.
One thing that nagged at me was the disparity of data plans. I use an older Palm Pixi Plus (cell phone). On that I pay $10 for 100MB. When I was living with the TF101 I could tether it to the Palm (but it was slow), so I looked into the portable hotspot solutions. The problem I saw was the huge price differences (data regardless of the device accessing it should be priced the same IMO) 5GB on a Flex Plan costs $70, whereas 5GB on the iPad costs $35.
Prior to the iPad I've never owned a single Apple device and a despised iTunes for all it's bloatware and autostart services, I've ran Windows (since 3.11 ) and Ubuntu (since Hardy) on my systems.
There are alot of biases between these 2 camps, frankly I just want a device that works as advertised, doesn't crash and force me to reboot or cold start. The first time any of us pick up a device to complete a task while wondering if the device will work as we hope, is the time we should be asking ourselves is that device honestly meeting our needs
It should be noted that while we have the option of customizing Android to our hearts content, customizing can lead to a drop in stability and poor battery life. Custom ROMS can often break basic functions of the OS and make apps incompatible or just plain unstable.
What Apple users miss from android, they gain in device stability, app compatibility, amazing battery life, consistent app experience and a simple "pickup and go" experience. This is what most people are looking for. Even the average android user won't take advantage of widgets, custom keyboards, custom ROMS and kernels , etc. That stuff is often reserved for the power users who like to tweak and control everything on their device... And power users make up a small percent of the total user base.
worldindo1 said:
People hold strong opinions so watch out because this article will flame like hell. I will say that Apple is crap, but I will explain why I say this. Given the freedom of Android, I'd choose nothing else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What kind of freedom are you talking about? I can't even root this thing, so it might as well be IPad in my hands right now..
I haven't used any apple device and probably won't. Because of the price. That's what makes difference between Apple and Android devices before I even have got any
EP2008 said:
It should be noted that while we have the option of customizing Android to our hearts content, customizing can lead to a drop in stability and poor battery life. Custom ROMS can often break basic functions of the OS and make apps incompatible or just plain unstable.
What Apple users miss from android, they gain in device stability, app compatibility, amazing battery life, consistent app experience and a simple "pickup and go" experience. This is what most people are looking for. Even the average android user won't take advantage of widgets, custom keyboards, custom ROMS and kernels , etc. That stuff is often reserved for the power users who like to tweak and control everything on their device... And power users make up a small percent of the total user base.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed the vast majority of users have no interest is hacking their device. They want it to simply work!
Further someone mentioned that price is a factor. Yes however now that we've seen a price drop on the iPad2 it's a moot point
hairpower said:
What kind of freedom are you talking about? I can't even root this thing, so it might as well be IPad in my hands right now..
I haven't used any apple device and probably won't. Because of the price. That's what makes difference between Apple and Android devices before I even have got any
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To answer your question simply. Without jailbreaking an ios device you cannot:
1ownload roms or any emulators, this includes all SNES,n64,psx etc etc
2:You cannot run freeware music software like grooveshark ( my favorite), it was banned from appstore, and now only resides in cydia (jailbreak + montly fee is required)
3:You cannot download torrents. Jailbreak is required, even then it is a not a good experience.
4: you cannot transfer files directly to folders, an SHSH connection is required, which requires jailbreak.
All these things you can do without rooting, so you are not holding an ipad device my friend, you would have notice it.
The best thing about android is that developers can make their own apps and spread them for free to the community, that experience can be obtained with iOS and cydia, but It can cause some real problems in your phone, and decrease its battery time.
When you use cydia apps, sometimes you will notice very unstable behavior from your idevice, like winterboard or dreamboarder, which caused my phone to brick itself.
in more simple words, To get an android experience on an apple device, you will make the iOS more unstable than applefanboys claim android to be.
EP2008 said:
Not sure if that's a benefit to the end user.
Some would argue that android is buggy and has low quality apps because it's so "open", while apples tight reign over the iOS ecosystem ensures a reliable, consistent and high-quality experience for the user.
Honestly, the "average person" doesn't give a damn about open or closed source. They just want something that works with minimal fuss, and that's why Apple can sell more iPads in a week than all Android manufacturers can in a quarter.
I love android because it can do everything I need it to do. My wife loves iOS because it allows her to do everything she wants it to do. The difference is that I'm always maintaining my Android devices, that is, I'm always monitoring the battery or checking for excess wake locks or apps that don't play nice, which she doesn't have to worry about those things at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I completely agree, ios is for the simpler person, who do not care about reaching the full potential of their device, they just want it to work.
Sent from my HTC_A510c using xda premium
worldindo1 said:
People hold strong opinions so watch out because this article will flame like hell. I will say that Apple is crap, but I will explain why I say this. Given the freedom of Android, I'd choose nothing else. Given the advanced level of control over your device, I'd choose nothing else. Given the open source availability of our beloved OS, I'd choose nothing else. Given the diverse choice of apps on the Play Store and the larger amount of free apps, I'd choose nothing else. Aside from that sort of stuff, Apple's BS just plain ticks me off. How these a-holes can actually try to monopolize the technology industry and file all of these lawsuits against their competitors (not to mention the fact that they are being goddamned hipsters and trying to claim that they invented the slide-to-unlock and face unlock features... I'm truly surprised they haven't dug up the inventor of the wheel and tried to sue him). Samsung, Google, and all of their competitors are forking out an arm and a leg to lawyers. Sorry if I seem like I'm pissy, I just don't like the fact that Apple is trying to ruin Android, when it's so beautiful.
This is my Tapatalk 2 signature. Rockin' the app on my Nook Color running ICS 4.0.4, courtesy of Dalingrin, Fattire, and our other beloved XDA weenies (nemith, keyodi, arcee, hacdan, etc.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
totally agree on all points!!!
---------- Post added at 01:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 PM ----------
from what i gather, iOS is simple whereas android is sophisticated!!!
A year ago I bought an iPad to replace my laptop. I did this because I used my android phone more then my laptop to place things on internet. For example on auction sites.
It wasn't what I expected. iOS is too secure. Something simple like searching a foto in your filesystem and upload it isn't possible. Even when iOS is jailbroken!
Now I have an android tablet, which can replace my laptop completely.
An iPad is nice for internet or reading your mail. Or for an electronics noob.
I can understand if people like iOS more for its stability, but for the generation that's under 35, how can anyone be too stupid to use Android? It's honestly not more complicated (I got my first tablet, TF101, last year in the summer, then my first smartphone about a month ago, SGi777) and you can do so much more. I've used my girlfriend's iPhone a lot (waiting at the bus stop, hanging around her place without anything to do.. etc.) and it's really hard to believe that anyone would want an iOS product for its "simplicity" because I'd say that it took me maybe two hours to understand how to manipulate Android as much as you can manipulate iOS (and of course, I learn more ways to manipulate Android as time goes on because it has so many possibilities that open up as you root and gain more control..).
Now, I'm a physics major, and I work with some computer programming languages, but none of which would really help for my learning experience with Android. I play games, but not much since early high school, so that wasn't it either. I use my computer, but not really for anything that requires super knowledge about computers. I've used iOS on a computer before, I've used Windows on a computer before, and I've used Ubuntu (really awesome, except it doesn't play certain Windows games which made me not completely switch over).
I guess the real difference between the two is the perception held by the masses. Yeah, Android is also cheaper (kind of, I mean, the good phones cost as much as iPhones but go on sale sometimes) so that kind of fuels the perception in lots of places. I know that in China, many of the wealthier folks like to buy things that are superfluously expensive for the reason that they are more expensive (my postdoc mentor being an example), and that's probably one thing that keeps this "iOS is the elite, Android is the poor man's choice" kind of thing going.
Sorry for the rant.
tl;dr: Android is as simple as iOS if you want to do only what iOS can do, but Android gives the user the potential to go farther. The main difference is the perception in the eyes of the masses, and that perception is tied to marketing and prices.
I love Mozilla, but from what I've read it doesn't seem like there is really any point to Firefox OS.
Other than flaming me, could you please list some specifics as to why it's beneficial?
I've talked to a lot of people in person about it and they all seem to talk about potential to grow like Android. The main problem I see with this is that whereas Android filled an obvious gap in the market, Firefox OS is trying to carve a niche in now heavily fortified waters. The fact that Windows Mobile both says they'll be happy for 1% of the market, buys off Nokia and pays off devs to port apps, it should be a pretty clear sign this will be a major challenge for Mozilla when a company with a scrooge mcduck tower of cash is piling money on the issue and still getting limited results.
For the record, I'm going to install it on my of my old devices just to play around with it but in the meantime if anyone could pose a good argument for Firefox OS then I'd all ears. It'd be nice to know the time I'll spend setting it up is worth more than just curiosity and Mozilla sympathy.
Or just flame me and call me a noob
in my opinion, we definitely need firefox os. if it will be of any advantage for your user experience, is heavily dependent of its success. but it's the only smartphone os, that uses a really open approach. since most apps are shortcuts for browsing to a certain web page on your smartphone, basing the whole os on a browsing engine makes a lot of sense. and it makes lots of things easier for devs.
It seems promising to have a fully custoimizable and open source OS for low end phones. FOS could extend the lifetime of many phones which is a nice perspective instead of throwing away functional hardware.
FirefoxOS is:
Customisable, free
Hardware UN-requiring
This means that low end phones can use the fos because they don't need powerful hardware, and poorer people in countries like Brazil or Ghana can use modern phones for little price. It's not really meant for our newer phones high-end.
defender of the Open Web
Most important is that Firefox OS seems to be the most tangible defence to keep our Open Web environment from becoming closed. With Firefox OS, the millions of new users from Africa, the Middle East, Asia and Central / South America who are now just starting to buy low cost smart-phones will enjoy using, coding and Creating in Java and HTML 5, and be free to ignore 5.1 with its restrictions such as DRM.
Right now, the Web, Free and Open as we know it seems to be dying! Here's what Danny Obrien of the Electronic Frontier Foundation wrote on October 2 (link to full article after the quote):-
… where you cannot cut and paste text; where your browser can’t “Save As…” an image; where the “allowed” uses of saved files are monitored beyond the browser; where JavaScript is sealed away in opaque tombs; and maybe even where we can no longer effectively “View Source” on some sites, is a very different Web from the one we have today. It’s a Web where user agents—browsers—must navigate a nest of enforced duties every time they visit a page.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/10/lowering-your-standards
I think why people should bother with B2G/Firefox OS is because it's not as complicated as Android - Android has a bunch of stuff that most of the time people won't even bother using so that's one benefit with B2G... Apart from the fact that it's not very hardware dependent, it's also simple and fast and aims at open source which Android seems to be lacking nowadays...
Because no Google there..
Sent from my GT-N5110 using xda app-developers app
Because we like to evolve, have choices and detest monopoly (imagineyou turning into an android ;p)
Becouse is extra
Sent from my GT-S5670 using xda app-developers app
No google, is the point!
I would love to see FireFox as an mobile /tablet platform, because it has given middleware which can run webapps. which i feel is far better than any other achievement unlike any other platform where middleware are heavy sometimes VM's to run app in UI. Firefox gives ability to run apps with PC like standards(HTML5, CSS3) etc.
i personally tested and best thing is there search is quite competing with google search for Android. try one .
Lot of other competeres try making webapps as there UI framework but fais may be because there inexperience, i am hoping Firefox with there vast knowledge can create a ecosystem where mobile ui/ PC ui will became synonyms. in that case nothing except a good webkit will solve all issues. till then we can wait.
~Amit
amorley said:
I love Mozilla, but from what I've read it doesn't seem like there is really any point to Firefox OS.
Other than flaming me, could you please list some specifics as to why it's beneficial?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In 2002 and 2003, the world was saying the same thing about Mozilla's browser. What's the point? IE 6 was pretty amazing (seriously!) when it came out and most Web developers I talked to were happy to have one target client. That sentiment was very different after 2005 when Firefox demonstrated to the world that the Web was stagnating. Most Web developers changed their tunes and started demanding Microsoft release newer versions with modern capabilities and erase IE 6 from the face of the Earth.
Mozilla is a non-profit dedicated to pushing the boundaries of what's possible with Web technology while putting users at the center of their computing experience. We are here with no other agenda. We're not trying to sell ads. We're not trying to sell hardware. We're not trying to grow subscribers. We're trying to put users in more control and to expand the possibilities for the best operating system ever created -- the Web.
That's enough reason for me.
- Asa
(15 year Mozilla veteran)
As a developer I love it because I don't need to code twice (at best) if I want my app to work on multiple devices, screen sizes, OSs, future OSs, etc. The WEB is the platform so my app can easily intercomunicate with other webapps regardless of their underlying technology, because the WEB has standards. This will result in better and rich apps with better and rich services WITHOUT being enslaved by any platform/SDK specifics.
FirefoxOS is the next common-sense step on mobile technology and I'm pretty sure we are going to see Boot2Webkit, Boot2Blink, from the other companies... and if we don't, we will see more companies following the same fate as Nokia, Microsoft...
amorley said:
I love Mozilla, but from what I've read it doesn't seem like there is really any point to Firefox OS.
Other than flaming me, could you please list some specifics as to why it's beneficial?
I've talked to a lot of people in person about it and they all seem to talk about potential to grow like Android. The main problem I see with this is that whereas Android filled an obvious gap in the market, Firefox OS is trying to carve a niche in now heavily fortified waters. The fact that Windows Mobile both says they'll be happy for 1% of the market, buys off Nokia and pays off devs to port apps, it should be a pretty clear sign this will be a major challenge for Mozilla when a company with a scrooge mcduck tower of cash is piling money on the issue and still getting limited results.
For the record, I'm going to install it on my of my old devices just to play around with it but in the meantime if anyone could pose a good argument for Firefox OS then I'd all ears. It'd be nice to know the time I'll spend setting it up is worth more than just curiosity and Mozilla sympathy.
Or just flame me and call me a noob
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because Mozilla is helping build a internet the world needs and has been for years. Mozilla is also the most privacy focused company making software and has won awards backing that.
I've been trying hard to get our teams to develop for it but there doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm for it in China...
I have the Mozilla Flame phone and currently it's stable version is Firefox OS 2.0 and honestly, the improvements they've made make FFOS more unique and beneficial for the user. It's almost up to scratch, just a one or two releases and the features will be there. The speed already is there.
to be free from the grasps of a company who spys on your every move
As a user since version 1.0 on a ZTE Open, I have to say that I don't see a single compelling reason for an end-user to buy a FFXOS device, other than possibly price (debatable: many Android handsets fall into nearly the same price point, and the Lumia 520 is basically the same price as the ZTE Open C and better in every possible regard).
I get that it is an incredibly important vision that Mozilla have for the future of HTML5 and apps, but that matters most on the back end for developers and those who provide apps and services. I also understand that Mozilla have made great efforts to ensure that Open WebAPI is as painless as possible for developers to use, and that using very few lines of code, you can write powerful solutions. These are all fantastic things, and the web and technology in general stand to benefit massively from this.
However, from a purely end-user point of view, I find the UI/UX to be lagging severely behind every other platform, not to mention the relatively poor functionality of the stock apps. They do nothing other platforms don't do better.
The performance is abysmal, even on the Flame, and the battery life fluctuates wildly and does not impress me at all given my usage pattern.
I've filed endless amounts of suggestions for expansion and improvements to UI/UX and 99% of the time am met with blind reticence.
The feel I get is not that this is a platform for everyone by everyone, but a platform for a very small subset of the population (which if you analyze what the platform ships with stock and how they market it, Mozilla seems to have no idea who this population is) controlled by a team with a death-grip on it, fingers in their ears, blindfolds on, chanting "This is perfect, this is perfect, you don't know what you're talking about!".
People's tepid response to the platform and its slow adoption rate should stand as testimony to the fact that the platform is far from perfect.
****, the keyboard STILL sucks complete ass even on v2.2 nightly. Something as fundamental as the primary ****ing input method still isn't even done half-assed correct, so what do you think the rest of the experience is like?
Such a frustrating platform... I really wanted this to be the Phoenix that takes the principles and ideals of webOS from the ashes and sets the world of technology on fire, but it looks more like a poof of smoke at this point.
I'll continue daily-driving the Flame, I'll continue filing bugs and suggestions, and I'll likely continue to pull my hair out in frustration. Hopefully at some point all of my frustration will amount to something positive and I'll be able to whole-heartedly endorse this platform to other end-users and evangelize for it. Currently, that is not even a remote possibility.
Because we should be more principled and not support companies that pay no tax.
I wonder how many people are actually using FFOS as their only phone.
I have a ZTE Open, I am downloading and compiling FFOS builds once every few weeks, hack around just for fun.
But I have an Android for my daily use.