Database Users

interesting reading on 2.2 and samsung

http://m.examiner.com/exSanFrancisco/pm_75809/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=WzckuLg6
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App

I can accept that story or some other form it. I mean, it is out in Europe and has been for some time. And they have been dropping new phones with 2.2 for a while now. Why wouldn't these A-holes release it in the States. Can't imagine they have been testing the firmware for the past 7 months.

I have the epic and our update got delayed too. I knew it had something to do some bs like this but why would they delay the epic update because it already has sprint 4g in it. They could be upgrading their wimax to lte or coming out with the bidder screen model with the super amoled plus screen and they will launch that with froyo and leave ours in the dust. I guess we will find out on the 3rd of feb at sprints special event
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App

I thought maybe Samsung was going to just skip 2.2 and release a 2.3 update because Samsung is already running 2.3 on their Nexus S.
I was actually going to buy an Epic tomorrow.
But, if this article is true, I am going to "devalue" Samsung and not buy their product.
[email protected] them if they are making existing customers suffer because of their greed.

Honestly, this is probably true. I know this sucks, but companies like this value their earnings more than their customers. Those of us who have been eagerly awaiting Froyo are in the minority, and they know that most of the people who own these devices couldn't care less about it.
This will probably be the last Samsung phone that I will ever buy, I'd rather give my money to a company which values their customers and provides customers with timely information regarding updates and the like.

This reminds me of the initial warnings about previous samsung devices and the lack of updates when the epic first came out. Although this is the best sprint phone I have owned to date I still wonder if I should have taken those warnings a little more seriously!

Yes I heard complaints in the past about Samsung's poor phone support but I still got the Epic. Mostly because my old phone (HTC Touch) died and it was going to cost $100 for a replacement (thanks lame Sprint insurance). So I just decided to get a new phone and compared to the Evo, the Epic seemed like the much better option. After experiencing Samsung's greed and lack of support for their existing products, I'm going back to HTC next go round.

Let's kill!

Agree. This most likely would've been the last Samsung phone I bought. This pretty much seals the deal.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

For my next phone I'm going to do exactly what I did with this phone. Find out what the best phone is.. check the phones out.. and go with the one that is the best. Right now, even after the Evo 4G Shift was released, the Epic and other Galaxy S phones are still the best phone. I have friends with the Evo, Droid X, MyTouch.. and I can safely say that I have the best phone. Those phones have 2.2, but I wouldn't THINK about switching to them. Do I want 2.2? Of course. I have it now thanks to custom roms but of course it kinda aggravates me that there is no official release of 2.2 yet. But that is ok. If I had a choice between a laptop with a Intel i3 running Windows 7 and a Intel i7 running Windows Vista (or even XP), I would take the i7.
In my opinion, company tactics will forever aggravate us users. Throwing around other company names like HTC as the company that will be this "knight in shining armor" will only dissappoint you in the future. I have had 3 HTC phones previously and without a doubt, I can say that they are definitely not beyond screwing their customers over. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is right, but I'm saying that it is not uncommon. The day that these companies become non-profit organizations is the day you will see them put customers first.. I'm not holding my breath.

HeXeD said:
For my next phone I'm going to do exactly what I did with this phone. Find out what the best phone is.. check the phones out.. and go with the one that is the best. Right now, even after the Evo 4G Shift was released, the Epic and other Galaxy S phones are still the best phone. I have friends with the Evo, Droid X, MyTouch.. and I can safely say that I have the best phone. Those phones have 2.2, but I wouldn't THINK about switching to them. Do I want 2.2? Of course. I have it now thanks to custom roms but of course it kinda aggravates me that there is no official release of 2.2 yet. But that is ok. If I had a choice between a laptop with a Intel i3 running Windows 7 and a Intel i7 running Windows Vista (or even XP), I would take the i7.
In my opinion, company tactics will forever aggravate us users. Throwing around other company names like HTC as the company that will be this "knight in shining armor" will only dissappoint you in the future. I have had 3 HTC phones previously and without a doubt, I can say that they are definitely not beyond screwing their customers over. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is right, but I'm saying that it is not uncommon. The day that these companies become non-profit organizations is the day you will see them put customers first.. I'm not holding my breath.
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I couldn't have said this better. I had debated typing this up earlier but you beat me to it. Great minds think alike
JD

As Lee Corso would say, 'not so fast my friend.' Before I scooped my Epic, I had the HTC Touch (the original way old Vogue) and the ppc6700 (the silver brick) before that. I never had any issues with software other than crappy windows mobile but when it came to updates and/or support, I was happy. Hardware was on point as well. Samsung Galaxy has been a major disappointment for me having owner various Samsung products and knowing that their hardware is excellent. Still think the Epic is terrific. Just disappointed at all the troubles that customers have experienced across the entire Galaxy lineup.
JudasD said:
I couldn't have said this better. I had debated typing this up earlier but you beat me to it. Great minds think alike
JD
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This page has more detailed information on the T-Mobile leaked rumor:
...Trust me when I tell you, we had an update for the original G1, and HTC begged us not to. In 75% of the cases known to me in my [time] here and my [time] dealing with Android I will say that honestly most upgrade hold offs were the Manufacturer and NOT us as some believe. But we catch the flack.
I am tired. [redacted] I am up to here with Samsung. They pulled the same thing with the Behold 2 that I MYSELF had to clean up and caught wind over. The update to 2.1 update 1 is existant...
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If true, this shows how completely and utterly out of touch Samsung's executives are with reality.
First of all, the whole theory that a 2.2-Vibrant(non-4G) would "devalue" the 4G. EVEN IF the only difference between the old and new Vibrant were the front camera and 4G, how many users likely to notice or care about whether or not the current Vibrant has 2.2 would *honestly* choose to buy the old model instead of the new one, even if it were a $50 difference between the two? People who buy $50 phones or wait months to get an old model on closeout for "free" with 2-year contract aren't the people who buy phones like the Epic, Vibrant, and the rest of the Galaxy S family. People in "our" category might ******* about a $50 difference... but we'll pay it anyway, because we know that if we don't, we'll be miserable and regret it daily for the next year or two.
Ditto, for customers who already own a Vibrant. In the entire United f***ing States, there *might* be 10,000 Vibrant owners who'll dump one and buy a Vibrant4G at full retail just to get 4G and/or the front camera. And I'll bet that a hefty subset of that group are T-Mobile employees whose "full" cost (after employee discount) is roughly what the rest of us would pay for a subsidized phone with contract, anyway. Now, having satisfied that group... how many more existing Vibrant customers do they REALLY think they're going to get by withholding 2.2 from owners of older Vibrants? Especially considering the abundance of custom ROMs.
The rationale becomes even more absurd when you consider the case of withholding 2.2 from Epic4G owners. I'm sure if you combed America hard enough, you might find a few Epic4G owners who'd dump it, pay the ETF to Sprint, switch to T-Mobile, and buy a Vibrant4G... but scratch a bit deeper, and I'd bet a major body part that the overwhelming majority of THAT group consists of users who probably wanted to switch anyway, and the existence of the Vibrant4G was more of an enabling excuse and rationale than an actual *reason*.
Companies like Samsung just don't seem to "get it". Consumers might chuck a $25 mp3 player to buy a newer, cooler one in 4 months. Statistically NOBODY chucks an expensive pocket computer whose marginal replacement cost exceeds $400 for an incremental improvement 4-6 months down the line. The closest ANY phone has probably come to motivating early switching was the Evo, and that was basically because the Evo was roughly twice as good as the Hero in almost every meaningful way, and worse in basically none. Users MIGHT be induced to switch early for 10x faster data, twice the cpu speed, 50% more resolution on a screen nearly twice the size, and a lot more ram. Users are NOT going to casually switch because one has 2.2 and one is officially stuck at 2.1... they're just going to root, reflash, and promise their deity of choice that they'll never buy another Samsung phone again.
If anything, T-Mobile is the biggest loser, because if true, this means that Samsung is effectively doing its best to devalue T-Mobile's inventory of existing unsold Vibrants. Now, if T-Mobile charges $10/month more for 4G service, that might merit trying harder to induce otherwise-indifferent new purchasers to go with the 4G model instead of the old model... but if it's the same price per month for service, it's to T-Mobile's own advantage to all but encourage new customers who are indifferent between the two to go with the old one... it's one less phone for T-Mobile to write off as a loss and send to a spare parts warehouse to gather dust until it ends up in a landfill or gets dumped on a new penny-pinching customer who only cares that it's "free" with 2-year contract, and one fewer customer who'll start abusing youtube as a source of free in-car music on demand (soaking up lots of bandwidth in the process).
This is the kind of logic that leaves me wondering how some big corporations can even stay in business. I worked for one a couple of years ago where we were ordered to *immediately* dispose of a hundred or so old laptops -- at a cost of $250 apiece -- instead of keeping them piled on a few shelves in a storage room in case we came up with a good use for them someday (like using them as thin clients for call center operators... something we had, in fact, done before). The executive rationale? The accountants complained that they were "costing" us $5,000/month to store based on the square-foot value of the space they were taking up in the closet, and somebody's wet dream fantasies about the value of that space. The thing is, we were about ~15 employees in a warehouse-like facility almost a square city block in size that was 95% empty (built during the dotcom boom, then the company was stuck with it due to a glut of similar buildings nearby). So, we burned $25,000 in the name of emptying off a 4x6 foot steel shelving unit, basically to humor the delusional fantasies of a faceless borg more concerned with a checklist item than getting actual work done and bringing in revenue. Madness. Pure, faceless, bureaucratically-driven out of control insanity.

HeXeD said:
For my next phone I'm going to do exactly what I did with this phone. Find out what the best phone is.. check the phones out.. and go with the one that is the best. Right now, even after the Evo 4G Shift was released, the Epic and other Galaxy S phones are still the best phone. I have friends with the Evo, Droid X, MyTouch.. and I can safely say that I have the best phone. Those phones have 2.2, but I wouldn't THINK about switching to them. Do I want 2.2? Of course. I have it now thanks to custom roms but of course it kinda aggravates me that there is no official release of 2.2 yet. But that is ok. If I had a choice between a laptop with a Intel i3 running Windows 7 and a Intel i7 running Windows Vista (or even XP), I would take the i7.
In my opinion, company tactics will forever aggravate us users. Throwing around other company names like HTC as the company that will be this "knight in shining armor" will only dissappoint you in the future. I have had 3 HTC phones previously and without a doubt, I can say that they are definitely not beyond screwing their customers over. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is right, but I'm saying that it is not uncommon. The day that these companies become non-profit organizations is the day you will see them put customers first.. I'm not holding my breath.
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I agree with you and I really love my Epic BUT.... I can't help wondering how much better the phone would be with the upgrade.
Also Im sure this has been posted but this is an interesting read rating carriers and manufacturers on their upgrade rate.

looks to be true. This is on the front page of yahoo news.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/216716/samsung_blocking_ota_update_on_tmobile.html

Also made it to Slashdot!
http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/01/13/2334213/Is-Samsung-Blocking-Updates-To-Froyo
And PC World:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/216716/samsung_blocking_ota_update_on_tmobile.html
I have a feeling some people at Samsung are having a very bad day indeed.

Nexus S reboot problem:
Google Nexus S, google's second handset is in the limelight for wrong reasons this time. Looks like, the nexus S handsets are randomly rebooting atleast once every 48 hours, usually during a voice call! Google has officially confirmed this bug in their support forum. All the handsets that has been updated to the latest version of gingerbread (Android 2.3.1/GRH78) are affected by this bug.
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User's post from Slashdot story:
The real reason they are stonewalling on the 2.2 update for Vibrant is this: When they released the 2.2 update for the Vibrant in Canada, the update worked fine for a week or two, and then like clockwork bricked a huge percentage of the phones that updated. And when I say bricked, I'm not being liberal with that word, after a week or so running the Samsung 2.2 update, the SD card would become corrupt, and recovery mode would be unable to format it. My wife and I both have Vibrants, and it happened to them both one day apart. Samsung has been silent on the matter. Not surprising they'd avoid moving sending the 2.2 update out to US Vibrant owners, and also not surprising that they're refusing to explain why. Bell at least is fixing them, but lots of people on the XDA forum are saying their "repaired" phones are bricking again in short order.
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Samsung's official response to CNET's query about the rumor:
Samsung Mobile does not comment on rumors or speculation. With regard to the Froyo update, we recently issued the following statement: "Samsung feels it is important to make the Android 2.2/Froyo upgrade available only after we feel that we can give the millions of U.S. Galaxy S owners a simple and reliable upgrade experience. Due to the complexity and unique functionality of each Galaxy S device, we are performing additional testing and are working to make the Android 2.2/Froyo upgrade available to all U.S. Galaxy S owners, including the Samsung Vibrant, as soon as possible.
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Just to add to this conversation --> Just got off a chat with Sprint and I kept asking them about Froyo for the Epic. Everytime I mentioned it, the Sprint rep would direct me to Samsung and it's their fault. I think they got mad that I kept asking and pushing the subject, that they said they could no longer help me on the chat and gave me Samsung's number to call.
Looking at Samsung's facebook account, there a bunch of people complaining about this issue. Hopefully all this pressure will make Samsung cave in. *crosses fingers*

I call bull****.
Having come from the Crackberry world, this sort of stuff happens all the time. A supposed "reliable source" will leak some sort of story, the fringe enthusiast sites get wind of it and generates chatter and it eventually gets picked up by a naive journalist with a lazy editor and it gets put up as "legit" news which then causes a feedback loop which causes the internet to explore.
The example that comes to mind is the OS 4.7.0.113 update for the Blackberry Storm 9530 on Verizon, a leaked OS that "reliable sources" claimed was going to be the next official update but wasn't. It made it to PC World as well:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/163056/blackberry_storm_to_get_firmware_update.html
And it was 100% bull****. So I wouldn't give this rumor much credence.
The explanation of not wanting to take the wind out of the sails of the Vibrant 4G is irrelevant to other Galaxy S models where there is no similar Osbourne effect - such as with the Epic 4G.
My guess is that the actual explanation is much more mundane. Given the problem with Froyo bricking Vibrants, I would bet dollars to donuts that Samsung got super gunshy and their slow approach to Froyo updates to smaller markets is nothing more than a widespread, low-risk beta test to make sure their code is up to snuff before risking releasing an unstable update to the larger, litigious American Galaxy S userbases.

[Q] Is the Xoom worth it now, or should I wait?

I'm about to order a Motorola Xoom and I've been hearing some rumours of upcoming Android tablets, mainly the Xoom '2' or 4G and the Asus Transformer 2. Is it worth getting a Tegra 2 device now, or do you guys think it's best to wait?
After a Fall release, the earliest I can expect these tablets in Malta is around April/May 2012.

It's purely up to you. I got mine in early May and have been loving it every day. This is coming from a guy that gets a new phone every year because I just can't stand the slow and laggy behavior of most. As for the cost, it does seem a tad pricey, considering you can get a full blown laptop for that kind of money, but I have enjoyed it. Now that I have one I would buy another in a heart beat if this one were stolen or broken. The new ones will be awesome, but they aren't out yet. It COULD be out soon, but these things seem to get delayed at the drop of a hat.

my 2p, its all about the availability of the community support and the openness which it has.
if you hope for motorola to support (software), you are looking at the wrong device.
if you have plans to root and unlock this device, the i guess its worth it. else i recommend you looking for something else.

I like my Xoom, but to be fair, if it was stolen right now I would immediately replace it with an Asus EEE Transformer - mainly because all features work, and also because of the keyboard dock - and they are now freely available (not the mobile wireless version, though).

If you plan on keeping it stock look elsewhere
This is the best tablet if you plan on rooting and installing things like kernels/roms.

Samsung Galaxy tab 10.1 with 4g up for preorder at $550. Motorola let us down big...

Title says it all. Motorola went the way of exploitation and took the cheap route of superficial marketing to rush a half baked device to market at the expense of it's customers. Trying to put the final touchs on their Frankenstein creation people received their xooms unsealed and in essence unguarded. People have reported sending in their malfunctioning devices only to met with refusal because of "water damage" even though the seal on the purchase was already removed when they received it. Motorola reps at CES repeatedly said that the xoom would be upgradable to 4g soon after release, some saying 40 days, some saying 2 months, some saying whatever - all being false. SD card support has never been honored even though other tablets like the transformer with fundamentally identical specs have delivered since day one. Now Samsung is offering the same thing in thinner form factor for almost 300 dollars less - and we can only assume it will actually be WORKING also.
And if all this isn't bad enough we see that while Motorola had no problem taking large sums of money on false pretenses they simultaneously had no shame about neglecting original xoom owners and developing a second xoom in the meantime that is nothing more than a working version of what they promised the first would be. Pathetic.
They are striving hard for recognition as the biggest piece of **** company in the android game and judging by the recent reports of their stock value, it seems they are successful at something. Seriously it is not rocket science. False advertising, ****ty support (or none at all), zero accountability, no remorse or attempt for compensation or consumer confidence, equals a ****ty company that loses value in a competative market. Someone over there needs to take their heads out of their ass. A child can understand this.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App

Oh my god just $550 and no contract? I wouldn't mind prepaid 4g data from verzion....

Europe has SD card support, and since it's not a GED that makes me suspect that the problem with SD card support is more of a Google issue than a Moto issue.

VaKo said:
Europe has SD card support
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Not yet, Motorola posted at Facebook that they will roll out the 3.1 Update with SD soon for EU... But what is soon? 2 weeks? 2 months?
Nobody received a update yet...

They shafted a lot of people. I have the WiFi only model so I don't apply. That sucks for everyone else though.

Does it suck? Yes. Motorola sold the Xoom on promises. But nowhere on the Box or on any advertisements did they say when LTE would be given out and nowhere in the advertisements was the SD card slot mentioned. So although you feel like you have been taken advantage of, you need to take some personal responsibility. You purchased an unfinished product willingly.
My response is that I will no longer buy Motorola products.

First this is not a personal attack on anyone, but I have to say that ALL of us bought this device well knowing that some of the features were still in developement. I have not seen anyone present actual evidence of Motorola committing to any specific dates as to when these features would be added. If you have evidence please share as I am sure there are many people who would like to see it.
Moto was first out of the gate with a HC tablet, if they had waited until everything was done it still would not have shipped and the same people who are blasting Motorola now for unsupported features would be the same people screaming that they were late to market. The US Xoom is a GED device, so the SD support is fully in Google's hands. As for the LTE upgrade, I have a WiFi Xoom so I really can not comment any more than what I have already said. In this type of market there really are not too many options.
1) Ship something with less features to be first or earlier to the market
2) Wait for the features to be fully supported and be late to the market
3) Ship the unit with full hardware support but lacking full software support so that features can be enabled in future SW updates.
It comes down to which one of these options satisfies the most people. I personally think they made the right choice, but everyone is entitled to thier own opinion. Now do I believe Moto needs to reduce the pricing to compete, of course. But I am sure that as soon as they reduce prices, people will be *****ing about that too. There is ALWAYS a premium for buying the first of anything, especially in the technology market.
Me personally, I like my Xoom and after reading reviews of the Samsung given the option to choose I would stick with the Xoom. Is it heavier - absolutely, is it more robust/durable - absolutely, is it going to get Adroid updates faster and for a longer period of time - most likely.
Regarding the point of them already designing a next generation Xoom, that is what companies have to do to stay competitive. There will ALWAYS be something newer/better/cheaper on the horizon and I would be more pissed off if they were not working on the next best thing.
Does it suck that something we all just spent good $$$ on a few months ago is not the "best" thing anymore, sure but that is how it goes.

I dont feel bad about my purchase...the cost of being an early adopter...also i dont care what anyone says...that Tab feels cheap as hell. My xoom feels bullet proof. Apple was able to make a thin device feel solid but like their phones, cameras, and big screen TV...the tab feels very plasticy and cheap. Just my opinion. I still love my xoom despite all this other stuff that comes out.

Kippui said:
Oh my god just $550 and no contract? I wouldn't mind prepaid 4g data from verzion....
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Where are you seeing that. I see $529 with a contract.

nubsors said:
Does it suck? Yes. Motorola sold the Xoom on promises. But nowhere on the Box or on any advertisements did they say when LTE would be given out and nowhere in the advertisements was the SD card slot mentioned. So although you feel like you have been taken advantage of, you need to take some personal responsibility. You purchased an unfinished product willingly.
My response is that I will no longer buy Motorola products.
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I am aware that they didn't commit to a "specific" date. Although if you followed CES where the xoom was debuted you will have heard Motorola reps offering all sorts of unofficial etas (all of which have come and gone). Regardless, misleading and dishonest advertising doesn't depend on them specifying a date. While they have said things like "by the end of Q2" (which was yesterday for anyone following) the practical truth is that when you offer a service in a fast moving market where a devices life cycle of relevance can be as little as 6 to 8 months (hence the new xoom 4g already on the horizon and quadcore chips becoming standard before the end of the year) you only have a certain window of oppertunity to deliver in a manner that represents the market you are trying to succeed in. To turn around and crawl under technicalities like, "we never promised you a certain date" becomes just a bold affirmation of ones own incompetence and utter lack of comprehension of the role that consumer trust plays in the role of your business. Look at apple. They have the most loyal fanbase, so much so that people buy their **** on principle without thinking, and while they shaft them on price, specs, and basic functionalities - they don't leave them out to dry when it comes to support.
As far as the SD card goes, go to Motorola's site. It is one of the specs advertised.
Someone can try to portray this as my own personal unjustified gripe but objectivity speaking these are business practices that will tarnish anyone's reputation and make people hesitant to buy their ****. I don't control that, it stems from common sense.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App

The SD card issue on the US GED is a Google issue, everyone else is adding it aside from Google, so they need to answer this question. I don't think it's a huge issue though, it has 32GB of storage and I'm happy with that.
As for all the other complaints, yes, Moto are lying ****s, this isn't even a matter of debate anymore. But I still like my Xoom and I'm glad I bought it.

bmhanson said:
Where are you seeing that. I see $529 with a contract.
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Oh....
Sorry lol

Looking for T-Mobile WP7 phone - is this a good choice?

I know I posted a while ago if this was a good replacement for my G2 - but now I'm looking to supplement it.
This would be over the other two current options, the Lumia 710 and the Radar. I love physical keyboards, and I'm assuming the screen between the three is the best (and obviously biggest). Plus, I like the reaction when I ask T-Mobile employees about it and then show them pics of it - most of them aren't even aware it exists. Front facing camera on the Radar is nice, but not a dealbreaker. They're all available to me for around the same price brand-new/off-contract.
Anyway, my concern is that it being an older phone, I'm not sure how much longer it'll be supported, and if it'll be supported into Tango/Apollo (not saying either the 710 or Radar will, though); although according to a post in this article, if Dell reps are getting them to replace other phones and it's still getting updates, I'm hoping it'll get supported for a while:
http://www.wpcentral.com/dell-shocks-world-releases-8107-os-update-unlocked-venue-pro
I'm aware of the lack of Wifi hotspot and compass, but neither really matter to me. I need a WP7 phone period (for work), and it has to be on T-Mobile, so it's just between these three phones.

Raw spec wise, the VP is 1 generation older.
It's a 4.1 AMOLED (no super, no plus, which means it's pentile)
Biggest diff is obviously the screen, the V/VP's screen isnt amazing but it's by no means bad, it's easily much better then any plain lcd it's age (but it's a year old, dunno how it compares to more recent lcds like the other 2 you mention) After using a 4.1 and 5.0" phone, I'm pretty sure there's no way I'm gonna go back to anything under 4.0" It's simply too small unless you're basically using it as a featurephone.
No WP7 device is really old enough to be EOLed yet, but the VP is a launch device so it will be among the first to EOL (whenever that is?)
The tmo one is only 99 cents on contract (if you consider that cheap) you can easily get a brand new one off ebay for less then $200. (New, unopened, and recently manufactured)
Full price: eh it's a hard sell.
On contract/less then full price: It's worth the money if you want a HW keyboard.
It's basically breaks down to: do you want the keyboard and screen size.

Screen Size and Keyboard make it a no brainer to me. I wont even consider reupping my contract for a new windows phone unless the screen is 4.3in minimum though. The 1st gen processor doesn't really matter much as WinPhone is so smooth...Just my thoughts.

I have both the dell VP and the 710. I have also spent time with the radar. There is no easy way to recommend, seeing how this is a basic personal choice.
Of the 3, the dell is the nicest.
Of the 3, the 710 is the fastest.
Of the 3, the dell and the 710 do not have front facing cameras.
Of the 3, the dell is by far the oldest. There were serious questions regarding mango compatibility. I doubt, PERSONAL OPINION ONLY, the dell will see Apollo.
Do not mix Tango and Apollo. They are not on the same path. Tango is considered a mango derivative, not an upgrade, most likely associated with a hardware line.
As second Gen hardware starts arriving in the coming months, the dell will fall, behind speed wise at least. So if your phone usage includes a healthy dose of data usage, you should probably factor the lack of 4g and wifi n into your decision.

Hmm...definitely gives me a lot to think about...anybody know how battery life compares to the other two phones? The keyboard is basically the #1 reason why I'm considering the phone, but not if there's better options. I know WP7 is smooth in general - is there anywhere the better/newer processors of the Radar/710 come in? Data speeds are a valid point, but I don't think I'll be needing much more than it provides.

I really don't see why people are comparing 1st gen and 2nd gen. The only MAJOR difference I see is the processor, is 400mhz REALLY going to make that much difference? Not that I can think of.
Yea the camera sucks when not shooting in daylight but its a phone...And yea there's no front facing camera(a luxury not a requirement)either, in all the times of having a FF camera on my devices I only ever used it once on my Galaxy S in a Skype call.
The other advantages of this phone far outway its disadvantages.
Perfect physical keyboard
Big amoled screen
Nice quality speaker/mic due to slider mechanism
Premium look + feel
Gorilla Glass
Removable SD card, limitless expansion(if you dont care about your warrenty)
The compass not working isn't a major problem either, its just a luxury that COMPLIMENTS the gps, as long as I can use Bing/Google/Navigon maps I honestly couldn't care about the compass.
Let's not forget that software issues can be fixed, yea I know Dell haven't said much regarding the compass but that doesn't mean to say they won't fix it in the future.
I'd say go for it, until the generation gap is that big I don't think this being a 1st gen phone really makes all that much difference.
---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------
alodar1 said:
So if your phone usage includes a healthy dose of data usage, you should probably factor the lack of 4g and wifi n into your decision.
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The Dell Service Manual and Windows Phone Device Manager both state that the phone has N capabilities...

Had mine since launch, and personally while I would like to upgrade to something like the Lumia 900 the Dell really is still a good, fast and stable WP7 phone with the advantage of a unique design and the excellent keyboard. If your work usage just entails emails, viewing docs and calls there really isnt any reason not to get it.
As for support, generic devices are getting the update to 8107 so at least for now its still supported. If you can get it cheap now, do it and enjoy and wait for the real upgraded hardware with Apollo.

Bongo2k said:
The Dell Service Manual and Windows Phone Device Manager both state that the phone has N capabilities...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It must be in error then, S1 snapdragons (such as the QSD8250 in the VP) do not support N, only B/G.

efjay said:
Had mine since launch, and personally while I would like to upgrade to something like the Lumia 900 the Dell really is still a good, fast and stable WP7 phone with the advantage of a unique design and the excellent keyboard. If your work usage just entails emails, viewing docs and calls there really isnt any reason not to get it.
As for support, generic devices are getting the update to 8107 so at least for now its still supported. If you can get it cheap now, do it and enjoy and wait for the real upgraded hardware with Apollo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with your statement.....but. It depends on how the OP acquiress the device. Get it used off Craigs list or ebay...sure....go for it...using appropriate caution. Buy it new and lock into a 2 yr contract, why? Why lock into a contract with an old phone. There is no difference in 400mhz is like saying all cars drive 60mph. Yes, thats true. Side by side there is a distinct difference in the speed of getting your data. If you choose to not see that, thats ok. sitting side by side with my Droid Bionic, there is NO comparison speed wise. The VP is a clear second choice. Even with the 710, speed wise, its a clear second place.
Now, the OP said data is not primary in their use of the phone. In that I agree that speed should not be a problem then. But I will fall back, once again, on old hardware, and a 2 yr contract. At the end of that contract, the Dell VP will be 3yr+ old hardware.
But.....the thing is pretty...the screed is very good...the keyboard is nice. Go for it if speed and age are ok with you. You wont be dissatisfied.
---------- Post added at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------
TheManii said:
It must be in error then, S1 snapdragons (such as the QSD8250 in the VP) do not support N, only B/G.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've never got the wifi N to connect, ever. I played with all the frequencies, and bands, etc. Had a connection to the MS DEV team for WP, and they confirmed, to me, no n with the Dell...at least the original dell vp.

alodar1 said:
I agree with your statement.....but. It depends on how the OP acquiress the device. Get it used off Craigs list or ebay...sure....go for it...using appropriate caution. Buy it new and lock into a 2 yr contract, why? Why lock into a contract with an old phone. There is no difference in 400mhz is like saying all cars drive 60mph. Yes, thats true. Side by side there is a distinct difference in the speed of getting your data. If you choose to not see that, thats ok. sitting side by side with my Droid Bionic, there is NO comparison speed wise. The VP is a clear second choice. Even with the 710, speed wise, its a clear second place.
Now, the OP said data is not primary in their use of the phone. In that I agree that speed should not be a problem then. But I will fall back, once again, on old hardware, and a 2 yr contract. At the end of that contract, the Dell VP will be 3yr+ old hardware.
But.....the thing is pretty...the screed is very good...the keyboard is nice. Go for it if speed and age are ok with you. You wont be dissatisfied.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree the Dell is not a good choice to get on a contract now, I dont think the other 2 WP7 choices on Tmo are any better either. The Radar and 710 storage is pitiful and the screens are smaller, and in a few months there will be better devices with faster data and more storage, probably not with a hardware keyboard but with big enough screens to make it easier to adjust.
I dont think the age of the hardware is too relevant, the Radar and 710 are themselves old tech compared to the current range of android phones, even compared to the iphone. The Dell still works beautifully though, and is one reason I dont feel the itch to get something else. Tough choice, but all told I would still pick the Dell for non-contract use, and wait for something better if it is going to be put on a contract.

efjay said:
I agree the Dell is not a good choice to get on a contract now, I dont think the other 2 WP7 choices on Tmo are any better either. The Radar and 710 storage is pitiful and the screens are smaller, and in a few months there will be better devices with faster data and more storage, probably not with a hardware keyboard but with big enough screens to make it easier to adjust.
I dont think the age of the hardware is too relevant, the Radar and 710 are themselves old tech compared to the current range of android phones, even compared to the iphone. The Dell still works beautifully though, and is one reason I dont feel the itch to get something else. Tough choice, but all told I would still pick the Dell for non-contract use, and wait for something better if it is going to be put on a contract.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
T=Mobile is notorious for low ended hardware, especially with Windows Devices. The Radar and Lumia follow that path. I am more familar with the Lumia. Though I am happy with the device in that its 4g and wireless N, The look and feel are not what I would decide to move to for a primary 2yr phone. I too am looking very closely at the Lumia 900.
I've always hoped that TMO would begin to offer a couple of mediium to higher ended phones in the Windows space. Even a Samsung would be a change. But continued reliance on HTC and low end hardware overall, just makes me doubt TMO's commitment to quality.
I say again, if you can get a DELL VP off contract, its well worth it. On contract though, its an old phone thats just getting older. Think about phone design, testing, etc. and how long that takes. Then remember the DELL was released in Dec 2010. That means the design and hardware pushes back to close to, if not into, 2009. Thats a long time for a phone, hardware design wise.

I can vouch that the V dates back to early 2010/late 2009 as prototype roms are known from back then.
The VP is essentially a V+keyboard, so hardware wise it's the basically the same. The V/VP are some of the last S1 devices released, with the VP being a WP7 launch device.
Looking around: are there really that few choices for WP7 device on TmoUSA? I bought my VP for unrelated reasons.
Looking on wikipedia, pretty much all S2 WP7 devices are for at&t for US markets, or pretty much all but tmo?
Depending on your work you might not even notice the difference from S1/S2, if it were me I'd (and under the rather large assumption all device drivers are of the same quality):
I'd pick the VP for the larger screen if you wanted 3g on tmoUSA.
The fact it's only 4.1 isnt saying much, but it means jack how fast your phone is if the screen's so small you can only look at 1/20th of a page/whatever at a time.
If it wasnt tmo, something like the lumia 900/titan 2/focus s are pretty good otherwise (ignoring price)
If you want a HW keyboard, the VP is the only(?) tmoUSA 3g supported device.

If you must have a keyboard, nothing compares to the DVP. I've owned both the HD7 and the DVP, and I prefer the HD7. You can find those pretty cheap on Craigslist or eBay, 4.3" screen, decent, not great but better than the DVP, camera, and it has full unlock and custom roms if you like to tinker.
The DVP is a much prettier piece of hardware. I'll give it that. The screen is great compared to the HD7.
I would wait just a little longer and see what TMO releases. I still have faith that a Nokia, 800/900 will be coming. A TMO HDx successor would be great if I had an ultimate request.

jelliottz said:
If you must have a keyboard, nothing compares to the DVP. I've owned both the HD7 and the DVP, and I prefer the HD7. You can find those pretty cheap on Craigslist or eBay, 4.3" screen, decent, not great but better than the DVP, camera, and it has full unlock and custom roms if you like to tinker.
The DVP is a much prettier piece of hardware. I'll give it that. The screen is great compared to the HD7.
I would wait just a little longer and see what TMO releases. I still have faith that a Nokia, 800/900 will be coming. A TMO HDx successor would be great if I had an ultimate request.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now wouldn't that be grand!!! A nokia 800/900 on T-Mobile. I'm crossing everything for that. However...patience is required. I understand AT&T has a 45-90 day exclusive window on the 900. So the earliest we could possibly see it is June-ish. And, I believe the 800 has yet to be picked up in North America.
Which ever the next device, consider a higher end model. This should allow updates to Apollo possible. I have also heard through the birdies that the first Apollo internal testing builds are ready. So hopefully we should be hearing things about that shortly.

alodar1 said:
Now wouldn't that be grand!!! A nokia 800/900 on T-Mobile. I'm crossing everything for that. However...patience is required. I understand AT&T has a 45-90 day exclusive window on the 900. So the earliest we could possibly see it is June-ish. And, I believe the 800 has yet to be picked up in North America.
Which ever the next device, consider a higher end model. This should allow updates to Apollo possible. I have also heard through the birdies that the first Apollo internal testing builds are ready. So hopefully we should be hearing things about that shortly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As nice as the 4.3" 900 sounds, I wouldn't second guess picking up the 800. They are both amazing looking phones. Why TMO picked the 710 over the 800? We may never know.

jelliottz said:
As nice as the 4.3" 900 sounds, I wouldn't second guess picking up the 800. They are both amazing looking phones. Why TMO picked the 710 over the 800? We may never know.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Possibly for the same reason why they dont have the galaxy nexus (tmo previously was the launch partner for every other nexus, and the g1), they're trying to shoot themselves in the foot?
The newest device they have seems to be the HTC amaze, which at first impression from the specs is just a rehash of the htc sensation, possibly a varient of the sensation XE? (which is only months old)
Has tmo had any flagship device since last year (as a major launch partner i mean, "oh we also carry" things dont really count)?
The closest flagship wp7 device they had was the HD7, which at&t turned around and got the HD7S?
The titan/II and lumia8/900's would count as flagship devices, and the titan's are At&t devices.
Basically, tmoUSA's been sitting on their butts for the past half year or so?
They're lacking flagship devices on both fronts basically?
Until someone releases flagship AWS devices, you're not gonna see anything above edge bringing over a device.
If you dont mind that you could simply pick any unlocked device available, like the lumia 800. Amazon is selling unlocked international 800's.

TheManii said:
Possibly for the same reason why they dont have the galaxy nexus (tmo previously was the launch partner for every other nexus, and the g1), they're trying to shoot themselves in the foot?
The newest device they have seems to be the HTC amaze, which at first impression from the specs is just a rehash of the htc sensation, possibly a varient of the sensation XE? (which is only months old)
Has tmo had any flagship device since last year (as a major launch partner i mean, "oh we also carry" things dont really count)?
The closest flagship wp7 device they had was the HD7, which at&t turned around and got the HD7S?
The titan/II and lumia8/900's would count as flagship devices, and the titan's are At&t devices.
Basically, tmoUSA's been sitting on their butts for the past half year or so?
They're lacking flagship devices on both fronts basically?
Until someone releases flagship AWS devices, you're not gonna see anything above edge bringing over a device.
If you dont mind that you could simply pick any unlocked device available, like the lumia 800. Amazon is selling unlocked international 800's.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TMOUS had the Sensation which I would consider a flagship. I had one, and after rooting and s-off it was amazing. You're right about the Amaze being a rehash. Slightly better camera and faster data speed (at the sacrifice of battery) is the only difference.
I use to buy unlocked international devices before TMO had 3g. I can't go back to edge speeds though. I wouldn't complain if they had hspa aws bands. Doesn't even have to be hspa+...
I'm waiting for pentaband chips to become more common. Its not too far down the road (I hope).

It's getting off topic, but the galaxy nexus is itself pentaband.
Buy a GSM galaxy nexus, it supports 850/900/1700/1900/2100, pretty much only missing 800.
Really makes you wonder why tmo doesnt have it, it's literally just a stamp of approval if you look at the nexus S (pretty much unmodified, launched as the AWS varient)
You could argue that carriers such as at&t and tmo are blocking cross-supporting devices from launching, there's nothing stopping a manu from simply not specifically releasing it in the US.
I believe it's not the chips per-se that determine what bands they support, but what amps the manufacturer puts in them. HTC is notorous for cutting corners and putting in the absolute minimum needed for a varient.
Hopefully nokia or samsung will make a WP7 phone that's at least triband or higher, preferably quad/penta. Nokia's already got experience with pentaband devices, they were like the first, or close enough.
It really doesnt matter which os you like, only that there's plenty of people on the wrong side of the fence for 3g

TheManii said:
It's getting off topic, but the galaxy nexus is itself pentaband.
Buy a GSM galaxy nexus, it supports 850/900/1700/1900/2100, pretty much only missing 800.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought I read that all those bands were not available. They were all listed but not all selectable. I don't own the nexus, nor have I played with it. Just a side article I read somewhere. I could be mistaken, most likely am....

Thanks for all the info/help, guys - I went ahead and bought it for $230 plus $4 overnight shipping, hopefully should have it tomorrow to start playing with. I'll post my reactions (and any questions) soon after.

Is America Screwed when it comes to Samsung?

First of all I am not what I would call a fan boy even though every major appliance in my house is a Samsung, even the dishwasher. I have an S3 phone and the Note 10.1 is my constant companion. Lately I have been wondering as we wait for JB update (both phone and tablet) if the Apple ruling in the USA is hampering the speed that we are getting Samsung updates or software. Hell, you can barely get any accessories for the Note 10.1 in the US much less an update. There are even issues with some software available on the the Samsung app store that due to licensing issues Samsung can't sell in the US but the rest of the world has full access.
I love my tablet and would not trade it for any other. Works great as it is and if JB never came I would be fine. However, I think that it is possible we will see a much different user experience here in the states over the next few years when it comes to Samsung Tablets and Phones than the rest of the world. Until Apple gets off the crack pipe and stops litigating every electronic item that comes out we may have an issue.
Thoughts?

rap6388 said:
...if the Apple ruling in the USA is hampering the speed that we are getting Samsung updates or software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's just Samsung's priorities or lack thereof. HTC's just as bad. And both typically launch updates internationally first so our friends overseas aren't getting something we're not since other than the one German carrier ROM no Note has JB. The JB roll-out on the SGS3's not going particularly well and the One X JB update went back to the drawing board after problems were encountered when it was rolled out to the first region to receive it (Taiwan). So it’s the update process that sucks and the U.S. is just along for the ride.
Hell, you can barely get any accessories for the Note 10.1 in the US
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or Europe. The car dock for the GN was released nine months after it was shown. Same thing for the wireless charging station for the SGS3. The U.S. actually got the book cover for the Note before Europe. The accessory line is just mismanaged; I don't think the U.S. fares better or worse than the rest of the world. And again, HTC's the same. Kind of makes you wonder why they offer accessories at all if they don't want to sell them.
I think that it is possible we will see a much different user experience here in the states over the next few years when it comes to Samsung Tablets and Phones than the rest of the world.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to separate tablets and phones. Phones are always going to be a cluster here in the U.S because Samsung doesn't sell unlocked phones directly and the carriers here are notorious for their lack of urgency for getting updates out. The U.S. Wi-Fi Note is a Samsung direct device and so far hasn't been treated better or worse than its international relatives when it comes to updates. Samsung customizes the s/w by region for each device they sell. The U.S. is just another region and a big one at that. Certain Android features are blocked in the U.S. by both Samsung and HTC but so far that hasn’t appeared to affect the update schedule one way or the other.

Don't you guys never heard abaut ebay (de or gb). And considering on updates, sammobile page is available on whole earth.

No, its the same everywhere else. I'm in the uk and have received 0 updates.

im in egypt and no update
i wish the give the update to world wide very soon

I don't think I was clear. This is not about the JB update but just Samungs' position in the market right now with Apple hanging over their head based on the over the top billion dollar ruling.
For example, there is an app in Samsung market called DirectOffice Print. It is a great print app but the US owner can't buy the app on the app store because of contract issues Samsung has in the US. It is items like this and features that the US seem to miss that I am speaking of.

rap6388 said:
I don't think I was clear. This is not about the JB update but just Samungs' position in the market right now with Apple hanging over their head based on the over the top billion dollar ruling.
For example, there is an app in Samsung market called DirectOffice Print. It is a great print app but the US owner can't buy the app on the app store because of contract issues Samsung has in the US. It is items like this and features that the US seem to miss that I am speaking of.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Samsung App store not being able to manage payments in the U.S. is an infrastructure issue that has nothing to do with Apple. They've said U.S. payments will be in enable in Q1 2013. And the "billion dollar ruling" is a drop in the bucket; they made $7.4B in profit in Q3 of this year alone. By raising Apple's chip prices 20% they probably covered it if they indeed ever have to pay it. The Note V will be out by the time appeals are exhausted. If Samsung's not doing something or not doing it right it's because their Samsung. They get a lot right but they get a lot wrong too.

rap6388 said:
I don't think I was clear. This is not about the JB update but just Samungs' position in the market right now with Apple hanging over their head based on the over the top billion dollar ruling.
For example, there is an app in Samsung market called DirectOffice Print. It is a great print app but the US owner can't buy the app on the app store because of contract issues Samsung has in the US. It is items like this and features that the US seem to miss that I am speaking of.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, as much as I hate to say it, this is how Sammy does business.
It's worse if you're in Canada.
Samsung Canada has a reciprocal agreement with Samsung USA not to sell to each other's market. But Samsung Canada doesn't feel there's much demand in Canada for computer products - just phones... (although it is getting better - we now have netbooks... Yes, that was sarcasm...) so we either get Samsung products late or not at all. And even though we're right on the border - we can cross border shop - we can't buy the products in the US online and have it shipped.
Ironically, Samsung opened their first North American full time store in Metrotown Mall in Burnaby British Columbia Canada (a suburb of Vancouver).but they can't show most of their products because they're not available in Canada and you can't buy them from the US.
And even though Canada uses the same cell and WiFi frequencies as the US, we get 'special' verisons of their products that block us from getting updates at the same time as the US. (That's why there's a GN 8010 AND a GN 8013 that are essentially identical). I had the same problem with my Galaxy Nexus phone - the Canadian version is a yakjuux which is supported (barely) by Samsung rather than the yakju version that's supported by Google directly,.
Like you - most of my hardware is Samsung - simply because they build exactly what I want. No one else does. But it means I have to drive to the US and buy these over the counter and drive them back, or have a friend in the US ship it to me.
I may like Samsung's products - but the company sucks...
Side note: Also, they're lousy at getting accessories in big box stores like Best Buy and Future Shop up here... I was trying to get a Note 10.1 Book case and the Samsung Store was out. They recommended going to BB or FS and I had to point out that neither of them actually carry any Samsung accessories - hell, it's hard enough finding the Note 10.1 in some of them...

I should have learned my lesson when I had my Tab 10.1, took them a year to update it to ICS. By the time they did that, I had been using unofficial ROM for about 4 months (give or take). Not acceptable. This is definitely my last Samsung tablet, even though I love it dearly. Samsung don't deserve one single dime for their awful commitment to customer's satisfaction.

Gotta get Nexus
if you want the latest ROMS

mrdaco said:
Don't you guys never heard abaut ebay (de or gb). And considering on updates, sammobile page is available on whole earth.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's not a solution. If I wanted to buy from unreliable and potentially shady resellers - I'd buy at Best Buy.
At least they have a return policy...
The point is that if you're going to make products, you should support them well. Or at all. Samsung is the leader in sales for smartphones and are rapidly growing in market share for tablets... yet they still can't get Best Buy to carry cases for their phones or tablets. All you get is the usual wall after wall of iDevice crap.
Best Buy isn't a charity - they carry what they think will sell - or what the manufacturer will pay them to carry (yes, surprise - manufacturers pay for special displays and 'endcaps' as well as for preferred positioning - higher on a shelf for example). Samsung has to spend a bit more to get the visibility Apple gets. They have to realise that customer support is more than just having a lousy website that's more about selling more product than about supporting the customers they already have...
But 'return customer' and 'customer loyalty' seems very low on Asian hardware maker's minds, it would seem.

TheWerewolf said:
But 'return customer' and 'customer loyalty' seems very low on Asian hardware maker's minds, it would seem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The h/w business is almost entirely Asian with the exception of Apple, Nokia, and Motorola. We've discussed update priorities, accessory availability, and general attention to existing customer's needs. Only Motorola sells Android devices so it's them vs. the Asians if you want to draw a comparison. I've owned devices from Motorola and most of the Asian manufacturers. Here's my conclusion: they all suck in the three categories we're discussing. Let's add a fourth category; product quality. Here's my quick assessment:
Samsung - Means well but gets caught up in their enormity. Their priority is clearly future sales but they generally tend to treat the existing customer base well. There are exceptions and the OG G-Tab update to ICS is a good one. By offering dozens of different s/w types on a single device they make their own life more difficult. Rolling out updates across regions is a cluster because of it. They have terrific warranty service and will pay roundtrip shipping for repairs and replace a device with a new one if parts aren't available. They suck at the number of accessories offered and making them available in a timely manner. Their products are generally well put together using premium components.
HTC - Has really been trying to get updates out more quickly and with better quality. The One X has been updated to three new Android versions and has gotten three new versions of Sense since March. In spite of that it still takes too long to get updates out and they've had some pretty bad s/w that's been deployed without being thoroughly tested. Their warranty service is hit or miss depending on region. The U.S. isn't too bad and they do seem to try to get things right. They have a really nice variety of accessories; good luck trying to find them in stock anywhere. Their products are made from premium components but they've had a lot of QC issues with their latest devices. Good examples are extremely well made. They don't provide warranty support for devices that have had their bootloaders unlocked.
LG - Their support in the U.S. is atrocious and the rest of the world is a mixed bag. An alarming number of their products over the past two years have had design and h/w issues. Examples are overheating, spontaneous rebooting, boot loops, and sporadic wireless performance. Both the new Optimus G and N4 have thermal throttling issues so it doesn't seem like much has changed. The HTC Droid DNA has the same chip set and isn't experiencing similar issues. They are absolutely atrocious at updates. They offer few accessories and what's offered is impossible to find. Their devices are built well but it doesn't matter if they have fatal design flaws. The customer has to pay to ship a device to LG for repair.
Asus - They put more effort in to serving their existing customers than any other Android manufacturer. They are quick to update their devices, have representatives commenting on XDA, and try to address issues they're made aware of. Their warranty service is atrocious with frequent claims of "customer induced damage" for known issues. It can take weeks to get a device repaired and it's difficult to get an accurate status. Customers pay shipping to get the device to Asus. Their products are made from inferior and in some cases outdated components. They also have an abnormally high number of QC issues. The latter two elements along with crappy repair service sort of negate their customer service efforts. They offer a few basic accessories that seem to be generally more available compared to other manufacturers. When they introduce a new device its a cluster trying to find it and, because they're offered in multiple colors, finding the matching keyboard. They don't provide warranty support for devices that have had their bootloaders unlocked.
Sony - There are tied with LG for being worst at keeping their devices updated. I'm not familiar with their mobile device service but I've used them for PC service and they've been very responsive. Their products are generally well made but always seem to be a cycle behind everyone else design, feature and s/w wise. They tend to do well with offering accessories and making them readily available but they are very expensive.
Motorola - Their support of existing customers is tragic compared to the Asians. Even after Google acquired them they announced that late-2011 high-end devices that they promised upgrades to ICS for wouldn't be receiving them. They offered affected customers $100 off a future Motorola phone instead. They are also worse than the Asians at updates they do roll out. Their warranty and repair service is generally good. Their products are well made but MotoBlur is considered the worst of the overlays. It has been toned down on newer phones but is still far less complete than Sense or TW. They offer quite a few accessories but they are quite expensive. They are fairly easy to find. But in comparing Motorola to the Asians their complete lack of regard for existing customers makes them the worst of a bad lot. They don't provide warranty support for devices that have had their bootloaders unlocked.​
So, at the end of the day, there aren't really any stand-out winners. Toshiba, Acer, and Lenovo are bit players based on the low volume of devices they sell so I haven't included them. From general observation they aren't typically known to be any better or worse than the companies I've described. So balancing all four criteria Samsung and HTC, IMHO, are the best of a bad lot (at least in the Android world). Since Samsung seems to be taking over the Android world any way we might not have to worry about comparisons for very much longer.
Thoughts? Personal experiences?

BarryH_GEG said:
The h/w business is almost entirely Asian with the exception of Apple, Nokia, and Motorola. We've discussed update priorities, accessory availability, and general attention to existing customer's needs. Only Motorola sells Android devices so it's them vs. the Asians if you want to draw a comparison. I've owned devices from Motorola and most of the Asian manufacturers. Here's my conclusion: they all suck in the three categories we're discussing. Let's add a fourth category; product quality. Here's my quick assessment:
...
So, at the end of the day, there aren't really any stand-out winners. Toshiba, Acer, and Lenovo are bit players based on the low volume of devices they sell so I haven't included them. From general observation they aren't typically known to be any better or worse than the companies I've described. So balancing all four criteria Samsung and HTC, IMHO, are the best of a bad lot (at least in the Android world). Since Samsung seems to be taking over the Android world any way we might not have to worry about comparisons for very much longer.
Thoughts? Personal experiences?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds like Samsung should hire Asus to support their products and Asus should get Samsung build their products.

Vincent9756 said:
Sounds like Samsung should hire Asus to support their products and Asus should get Samsung build their products.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's the difference between Asus and Samsung/HTC when it comes to updates. Asus is the hands-down winner for getting updates out the door the fastest. But in doing so, it takes at least three subsequent updates to make the initial update complete. Samsung and HTC are painfully slow but (usually) the updates they get out are pretty solid. By that time, because Asus had to update the update multiple times, they arrive at the same place at the same time. Kind of a "tortoise vs. the hare" thing.

BarryH_GEG said:
The h/w business is almost entirely Asian with the exception of Apple, Nokia, and Motorola. We've discussed update priorities, accessory availability, and general attention to existing customer's needs. Only Motorola sells Android devices so it's them vs. the Asians if you want to draw a comparison. I've owned devices from Motorola and most of the Asian manufacturers. Here's my conclusion: they all suck in the three categories we're discussing. Let's add a fourth category; product quality. Here's my quick assessment:
...
So, at the end of the day, there aren't really any stand-out winners. Toshiba, Acer, and Lenovo are bit players based on the low volume of devices they sell so I haven't included them. From general observation they aren't typically known to be any better or worse than the companies I've described. So balancing all four criteria Samsung and HTC, IMHO, are the best of a bad lot (at least in the Android world). Since Samsung seems to be taking over the Android world any way we might not have to worry about comparisons for very much longer.
Thoughts? Personal experiences?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. I wasn't actually making a 'Western vs Asian' comparison - although rereading what I wrote, it does come across that way. Unfortunately, Apple is kind of the bar for support, quality and attention to detail, even with their recent decline in all three areas.
But my experiences with HP, for example - with their Slate 500 was odd - they had delivery problems, but they really went the extra mile to make up for it. In fact, in my own case, they ended up giving me almost a 30% discount for being late. I didn't even ask for it. They did screw up by choosing n-Trig for the digitiser - but at the time, it seemed a logical choice.
I only have one major experience with Dell - I bought an Axion Windows Mobile PDA that failed. They sent me a box in which to return it at no cost... and a new unit along with the box - also at no cost.
Of course, I have a Transformer Prime - and it's such a mixed bag of hurt and happy. As you note - the device feels right - and they got a lot right about it. It has the best USB driver support of any tablet out there. It provides enough USB power to run a hard drive. The dock is brilliant. And then they mess up something as basic as the GPS, WiFi and Bluetooth. And I think most of us could have dealt with that - if Asus hadn't utterly botched their response to the problem by essentially admitting the problem, then failing to fix it, then claiming the GPS wasn't meant for serious use (commerical GPS? What?) then trying to erase history by removing the feature from the box, then sending everyone a free GPS dongle that was just horribly thought out... and didn't fix the WiFi or BT issues. To add insult to injury - they announce a replacement pair of Transformers with the problem fixed... just two weeks after finally shipping the Prime - which was late. But the Infinity was supposed to be $100 more (which kind of took some of the pain away) - only to finally ship at the exact same price as the Prime.
Oh.. and then just after getting the dongle, the Prime's back camera died and that took a month to get repaired...
That's a lot of bad PR and bad customer support in one ball of hurt.
I bought an HTC Surround - the design made it impossible to remove the back without holding the screen which is on a slider. I sent it back after just two months of ownership because after upgrading to WP7.5 the screen started to act oddly.They claimed that the strain on the screen damaged it and refused to repair or replace it under warranty - demanding $250.
Which brings us back to Apple for a moment - I bought an iPhone 3G and two weeks afters the warranty expired, the 3G radio fried. When I took it back, they refused service - but offered refurb replacement.. also for $250. I asked if I could pay extra and upgrade to the 3Gs, but they refused claiming that their agreement with the cellco prohibited that. You'll pardon me when I get annoyed at people who go on about how great Apple's customer support is and how 'they'll replace or repair broken devices, even if they're a little over warranty...' Riiiight.
So, yes, as much as I hate to say it - at the moment, Samsung is the least evil current choice....
But it's definitely not what I would call a great choice...

TheWerewolf said:
Apple is kind of the bar for support, quality and attention to detail, even with their recent decline in all three areas.
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I totally agree. Part of it is because Apple's a marketing culture. They have always believed that pulling customers in with an excellent experience (h/w, s/w, content, support) and not relegating the control of the experience to others would lead them to loyalty, advocacy, scale, and profit. Looking at their market cap you can't argue with their approach. But their stock's dropped 20% since September while Samsung's been selling record numbers of devices and reeling in record profits. Samsung is no Apple and I don't think they'd ever be able to adapt that culture. But Apple's begun to bore people by sticking to their formula while everyone else is offering bolder more individualized experiences. The aging of Apple's demographic and adoption of Android by younger market segments doesn't bode well for Apple's future. At some point they are going to have to do something interesting and it isn't making the iPhone's display taller. Remember their famous "1984" commercial and the "think different" campaign? They've become what they used to parody.

I'm from Australia and thought much the same particularly with accessory availability. Then I moved to kenya of all places. Here Samsung is the undisputed champion. Nobody has an Iphone. Everyone has Samsung. Accessories are everywhere. All the major Supermarkets have a phone shop inside them and nearly all carry accessories en masse.
It makes an enormous difference to the functionality and usefulness of the product when you can do things like plug a flash drive into it or plug it into your TV. There are also many dedicated Samsung shops around the place. Although for some reason they seem to get the products later than the other retailers.
Samsung can definitely get it right in certain regions. I'm not sure why it struggles in others
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Simple, its what the public wants... Or thinks it wants...
Samsung have started to push out adverts here in Oz, especially S3 and SGNote 10.1, now when you rarely ever used to see their phones advertised. Apple was everywhere...
The shops are simply responding to what the customers want... Everyone was buying apple products, so naturally you stock Apple accessories with a few other brand accessories too. But if the lions share of customers want Apple products, why would you stock with only a few Apple accessories and have a whole heap of stuff you can't sell because the perceived market isn't there? That would be, from a sellers point of view, madness...
Until public opinion and buying habits shift noticeably then we are stuck with shops full of Crapple merchandise. When Android becomes a major seller, this is where standardisation is good, then we'll see the stock move to that area instead as profit drops for Apple stock... Unfortunately there's still a perception among retailers that Apple is an easy sell... That and the fact that there are a million different types of android tablet and phones out in the world, and there's only so many things they are prepared to stock while generally all Apple stuff fit or was useable by all apple customers... Until Iphone 5 that is...

The issue as I have always understood it has many sides. First Apple builds their OS for their devices, no one else gets it no other hardware can run it so they only have to optimize and remove features based on the generation of the device (3GS, 4, 4S, etc) and what will and won't work.
Now for Android OEM's they have a couple of challenges. First Google makes the OS and unless you are chosen for a Nexus launch you won't get the new OS in its finished state until after that (don't recall when JB 4.1.1 came out) so they have to wait.
Then the OEM's have to decide which devices can and cannot run the software based on the crippled (carrier specified hardware in the USA) so devices that are less than a year old get screwed over (HTC 2012 and 2011). Then they have to make sure their drivers work since not ever one of their phones (and tablets) uses the same processor or family of processors so we have Texas Instruments, Qualcomm, Samsung, Intel, etc. Then the priority is always given to the latest hardware going out the door since you want your newest hardware to (hopefully) be running the most current OS you had in the pipeline, or in our case JB 4.1.1. Then they start to update for devices they can support.
Now what I see as a huge issue and is the heart of fragmentation is Google's failure to set standards and timelines from both the OEM's and Carriers (USA are the offenders here) to deliver the OS updates. Google should be collaborating with the OEM's to enforce software rollouts. They could also put forth some type of awareness campaign to insure users are in the know and can have an expectation from their carrier and OEM that they will get that update. Oh wait that was the Android Alliance crap announced last year that did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
For me I would be fine with my GN 10.1 and soon GN 2 running some iteration of JellyBean hopefully 4.2 so it has the enhanced security features etc.

BarryH_GEG said:
I totally agree. Part of it is because Apple's a marketing culture. They have always believed that pulling customers in with an excellent experience (h/w, s/w, content, support) and not relegating the control of the experience to others would lead them to loyalty, advocacy, scale, and profit. Looking at their market cap you can't argue with their approach. But their stock's dropped 20% since September while Samsung's been selling record numbers of devices and reeling in record profits. Samsung is no Apple and I don't think they'd ever be able to adapt that culture. But Apple's begun to bore people by sticking to their formula while everyone else is offering bolder more individualized experiences. The aging of Apple's demographic and adoption of Android by younger market segments doesn't bode well for Apple's future. At some point they are going to have to do something interesting and it isn't making the iPhone's display taller. Remember their famous "1984" commercial and the "think different" campaign? They've become what they used to parody.
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Just gotta say: iCustomers are snobby, horribly wretched, self-absorbed "high designer" wanna-be's. Apple's hw is far from impeccable, the sw is strangling. They're good at glamour (making something appear far better than it actually is). Samsung is unfortunately trying to cut into that crowd, and I think they'd do better to provide a strong counter position: a tablet that lasts for years instead of 6 months. A phone that makes it to the next upgrade cycle (like the gNex).
Early 20th century design principles (built to last decades-- ie heirloom quality) should be a global standard....yes I know I'm pipe dreaming here....
Apple IMO has made it difficult for Samsung to really get behind its own products in the US, but it's jot just apple, mobile device carriers have lobbied our government, fcc, and individual manufacturers to NOT release things like the p6800 or the n8000 because carriers want you to buy a phone AND a tablet with a data plan, not just a tabletnwith telephony hardware... so f***ing sick of our markets being manipulated by the big players, people don't even know that there ARE tablets available with telephony hw... blah...
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