Database Users

Couldn't Google release updates instead??

I was thinking, can't google just release a open-sourced release that can be used for ALL android phones? I understand why Samsung would want its Touchwiz in it, and tmobile would want their apps in the phone, but if Google started doing that, would it work? Like they put out a few versions of the next Android, and it just starts working? The different versions could be that theres one for small screens, bigger screens etc.
I'm just thinking, couldn't they just eliminate fragmentation with that?

What about drivers for the phone? Those are closed sourced most of the time, They release them for the nexus though.
Google can definitely release the rom, or the aosp as they do but can't be fully functional with drivers. Like cm7 early on for our phone but I believe they reversed engineered the drivers
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App

xriderx66 said:
I was thinking, can't google just release a open-sourced release that can be used for ALL android phones? I understand why Samsung would want its Touchwiz in it, and tmobile would want their apps in the phone, but if Google started doing that, would it work? Like they put out a few versions of the next Android, and it just starts working? The different versions could be that theres one for small screens, bigger screens etc.
I'm just thinking, couldn't they just eliminate fragmentation with that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They already do.
That's what AOSP is.

I agree, Google should handle OS updates the same way Windows/Linux operate. Google should release the OS with compatible drivers for all devices.
As long as your phone has the specs to run the latest OS fast enough, great!

SamsungVibrant said:
I agree, Google should handle OS updates the same way Windows/Linux operate. Google should release the OS with compatible drivers for all devices.
As long as your phone has the specs to run the latest OS fast enough, great!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since when has Linux or Windows come with all the drivers? Have you ever done a fresh install of Windows or Linux before?

This is known as Fragmentation.
You have many choices/options of hardware but it's up to manufactures & carriers to provide compatible drivers.
Hence, iPhone & Nexus phones are so stable. I think Samsung is skating on thin ice by offering their Galaxy S to too many carriers with too many variables.
My next phone will be Nexus Prime/Galaxy Nexus!!!!

Sigh
I realize that everyone has differing opinions on this, but this isn't "fragmentation" in the same manner that Google refers to "fragmentation". I'm not picking, but it's the most misused phrase in the Android world. Fragmentation isn't about different devices with different drivers and individual frameworks like TouchWiz, Sense and Motoblur. Fragmentation is about companies doing things like installing Android on hardware that doesn't meet minimum specs (yes, Google has minimum/recommended hardware specifications), and running devices that are cut off from the Market altogether.
The reason why that's called "fragmentation" is because it's a poor representation of Android. It may be open source, but it's still being used in a manner not intended.

But then people would just expect their"old"phones to do new things. Why upgrade software when Tmobile wants you to buy new hardware.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using xda premium

reuthermonkey said:
Since when has Linux or Windows come with all the drivers? Have you ever done a fresh install of Windows or Linux before?
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Yes I've done a fresh install of win 7 and Kubuntu, and both find all the drivers I need flawlessly. Took Kubuntu/Ubuntu a while to be as easy as windows, but it's there now.
Really don't know what you meant either, Windows 7 goes and finds all the drivers you need if it doesn't already have a compatible one. It is a flawless easy install.

SamsungVibrant said:
Yes I've done a fresh install of win 7 and Kubuntu, and both find all the drivers I need flawlessly. Took Kubuntu/Ubuntu a while to be as easy as windows, but it's there now.
Really don't know what you meant either, Windows 7 goes and finds all the drivers you need if it doesn't already have a compatible one. It is a flawless easy install.
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The key words are "find drivers." Windows automatically finds what driver you need by downloading them from the net. Google would have to create a program that lets you update while getting required drivers..
I think that why ima go with the Nexus Prime. Its basically a GS2 but you get the android updates (I think)

dunkerya said:
What about drivers for the phone? Those are closed sourced most of the time, They release them for the nexus though.
Google can definitely release the rom, or the aosp as they do but can't be fully functional with drivers. Like cm7 early on for our phone but I believe they reversed engineered the drivers
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
False. Google gets the device first, loads Android on it the way they would like it loaded, drivers and all, and then hands it back to the manufacturer. The manufacturer then changes the source as they choose.

They make drivers for parts they didn't manufacturer? That makes no sense.
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App

dunkerya said:
They make drivers for parts they didn't manufacturer? That makes no sense.
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know but it wouldn't be too hard to get drivers from part/chip manufacturers.
Doesn't Microsoft make drivers to parts they didn't manufacturer?

SamsungVibrant said:
I don't know but it wouldn't be too hard to get drivers from part/chip manufacturers.
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Click to collapse
Apparently it is. See: Vibrant GPS.
Doesn't Microsoft make drivers to parts they didn't manufacturer?
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Click to collapse
No. There are generic drivers based upon standards, like NDIS, VGA, etc... that are freely available to distribute and provide very basic functionality. Non-standards drivers (that is, most drivers used since about 1994) are proprietary and must be obtained from the manufacturer.
Or do you not recall having to go out and search for hours to find the right drivers for windows 95, 98, NT, 2000, and Me (uggh)? Ever use linux before the likes of apt-get/yum and automated gui installs? Install printers over parallel ports? Serial mice?
I'm gonna guess no.

reuthermonkey said:
Apparently it is. See: Vibrant GPS.
No. There are generic drivers based upon standards, like NDIS, VGA, etc... that are freely available to distribute and provide very basic functionality. Non-standards drivers (that is, most drivers used since about 1994) are proprietary and must be obtained from the manufacturer.
Or do you not recall having to go out and search for hours to find the right drivers for windows 95, 98, NT, 2000, and Me (uggh)? Ever use linux before the likes of apt-get/yum and automated gui installs? Install printers over parallel ports? Serial mice?
I'm gonna guess no.
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Click to collapse
god thats a pain in the ass.

xriderx66 said:
god thats a pain in the ass.
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Click to collapse
I do not miss those days. Not a single bit.

reuthermonkey said:
Apparently it is. See: Vibrant GPS.
No. There are generic drivers based upon standards, like NDIS, VGA, etc... that are freely available to distribute and provide very basic functionality. Non-standards drivers (that is, most drivers used since about 1994) are proprietary and must be obtained from the manufacturer.
Or do you not recall having to go out and search for hours to find the right drivers for windows 95, 98, NT, 2000, and Me (uggh)? Ever use linux before the likes of apt-get/yum and automated gui installs? Install printers over parallel ports? Serial mice?
I'm gonna guess no.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who cares about windows 95, it's almost 2012 and Win 7 has practically all the compatible drivers you need upon install, and if it doesn't it searches and finds it for you. Not to mention windows update notifies you of new updated drivers also.
There is no reason Google can't direct Android in the same direction to make everything easier. They just have to work out deals probably with hardware/chip manufacturers for drivers or something. I think it would also help end fragmentation if Google just handled the OS release and updates and took the control away from phone manufacturers and carriers.

SamsungVibrant said:
Who cares about windows 95, it's almost 2012 and Win 7 has practically all the compatible drivers you need upon install, and if it doesn't it searches and finds it for you. Not to mention windows update notifies you of new updated drivers also.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So that answers that.
It helps to know a tiny bit of history to understand why things are the way they are. How old are you? 14?
There is no reason Google can't direct Android in the same direction to make everything easier.
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Click to collapse
Except for that whole "open source" thing.
They just have to work out deals probably with hardware/chip manufacturers for drivers or something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"or something" being the important part here. How, exactly is google going to "work out deals" with driver manufacturers, when they don't have any control over what hardware each phone uses? Moreover, unlike Android (which is distributed under the GPL) drivers are proprietary and don't fall under the same GPL license. Different driver manufacturers may have different licensing models with different handset makers as well. What microsoft does is quite different. But since you don't know anything about the history, I'm really not going to waste my time detailing Microsoft's approach, or the fact that it took them about 20 years to get there.
I think it would also help end fragmentation if Google just handled the OS release and updates and took the control away from phone manufacturers and carriers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would end fragmentation a whole lot, because phone manufacturers and carriers would no longer sell Android devices, and we'd go back to iOS and Blackberry (or WP7). Chances are, manufacturer profit margins would go up if they did that, since there'd be less competition, and less room for hardware innovation too. That sure would be easier though.

A simple fix
a simple fix to this whole fragmentation problem would be:
1. Android Release all OS Updates
2. Each device manufacturer uploads individual device drivers to google just like github maintainers take care of each device like cyanogenmod
3. Service Providers like T-Mobile/AT&T/Verizon could issue updates and customizations to the market. Just like T-Mobile does, they have their own T-Mobile Market Section. This would allow them to add customizations to the launcher, and certain apps. Google could have an Agreement with each provider that when your phone updates, it could either WGet updates, or have the market auto download and install them.
This is a simple fix. Stupid Simple, because it would make all manufacturers device maintainers, updates are central organized, and everyone can get their updates, manually or automatically.

Thank you reuthermonkey.
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App

Windows 8 on the Iconia

I don't want this to become a discussion of which OS is better, but does anyone think there will be a windows 8 install available for the A500? I read that windows 8 will support arm. Just curious.
Sent from my A501 using Tapatalk

No, the drivers aren't there for it, but they may release an upgrade for the w500 which was acers windows version of out tablet. It had different hardware specs than the a500.

Tegra 3 tablets will supposedly run Windows 8 (ARM Edition).
youtube.com/watch?v=HWOOefm_rwo

Tegra 3 tablets designed for windows will run windows 8, tegra 3 tablets designed for android won't. That is the same as the tegra 2 tablets, if you bought a Acer W500 it came with windows and you can't upgrade it to android because the driver support isn't there. The tablets came with different parts inside. Without the drivers your out of luck.

cruise350 said:
Tegra 3 tablets designed for windows will run windows 8, tegra 3 tablets designed for android won't. That is the same as the tegra 2 tablets, if you bought a Acer W500 it came with windows and you can't upgrade it to android because the driver support isn't there. The tablets came with different parts inside. Without the drivers your out of luck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You cannot compare to W500: W500 isn't a Tegra 2 tablet.

Windows 8 ARM (WHERE ARE YOU)
This question has been asked and talked about over and over again...
I do think it all depends on the windows 8 arm version.. myself because of the way linux is partitioned. The way our device is partitioned Size of boot / system partitions and OF course the protected boot loader.. IT will take some very extreme hacks to just get it installed .then there is the whole drive thing people are talking about.Thou many tegra devices shares alot of hardware. and there is a huge chance that this device could have the same hardware as in camera bluetooth gps and so on as the w500. im almost Positive its the same with the camera and bluetooth . as i have a acer and a gateway notebook that share these same common hardware chip type devices the chinon (i think is proper spelling) for cam . the iconia has this cam chip as well .
if you factor all of this together.. Someone would really have to want it VERY BAD.. or microsoft will have to do alot of testing with ACER .
the short answer is .. FLIP A COIN WILL Bring just as good answeres until its out in beta..

An answer from Acer technical support
I ask gently to the technical support if Windows 8 Will be ported to the Iconia Tab A501 and the answer was really short ...
NO
So, if some people work on it to build one for us, we will have it. Other else, too bad

ArtSooby said:
I ask gently to the technical support if Windows 8 Will be ported to the Iconia Tab A501 and the answer was really short ...
NO
So, if some people work on it to build one for us, we will have it. Other else, too bad
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, isn't that what we said already? Why is it that hard to believe?
Win8ARM will not be sold separately, it can only come preinstalled. Secondly, Microsoft is only allowing it on fully locked-down devices; no open bootloaders for you. Thirdly it'll be very hard to even get admin access because Win8ARM doesn't allow sideloading; all and every single application must come from the Windows Store. No, you cannot run or install stuff from USB or Flash or network shares. All these things considering it'll be a wonder if someone can even copy the ROM successfully, let alone make it run on a device which doesn't have Secure Boot.
Short answer: NO, A500 WILL NOT GET WIN8.

A slight taste of the Near future .
WereCatf said:
Yes, isn't that what we said already? Why is it that hard to believe?
Win8ARM will not be sold separately, it can only come preinstalled. Secondly, Microsoft is only allowing it on fully locked-down devices; no open bootloaders for you. Thirdly it'll be very hard to even get admin access because Win8ARM doesn't allow sideloading; all and every single application must come from the Windows Store. No, you cannot run or install stuff from USB or Flash or network shares. All these things considering it'll be a wonder if someone can even copy the ROM successfully, let alone make it run on a device which doesn't have Secure Boot.
Short answer: NO, A500 WILL NOT GET WIN8.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OVER The past 10 years i have been saying. been protesting. that eventually that if this locked device and embedded software is not stopped with laws .All electronic devices will end up with a very short end of life from manufacturers. Well folks its here. If Microsoft does the above. Well even they will push minor but much needed updates like security fixes on old devices devices and make them OBSOLETE much sooner by not supporting new much needed technology to keep devices viable..
This by the way Microsoft has been two faced from MS . there statement is ( THe manufacture has a choice rather to lock a device or not but they believe the end use should have a right to choose what os to run on there device. They say in this statement they are confident everyone will choose ms software ) This statement i disagree with . the only way to protect our right to have unlocked devices is to take it to the COURTS. But with all the recent activity about piracy this is a fight that will Be very hard and a long battle. EMBEDED SYSTEMS IS THE FUTURE AND WILL COST CUTTING EDGE CONSUMERS BILLIONS. Someone very good with web development start a TRUE WEBSITE TO PROTEST THIS.. many will join in and make this fight start now before its to late..
YES The above sounds like a conspiracy just do some research then post your opinion . Sorry op of this is off topic but its kinda related..

erica_renee said:
there statement is ( THe manufacture has a choice rather to lock a device or not but they believe the end use should have a right to choose what os to run on there device.
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Click to collapse
Actually, you're slightly incorrect there; Microsoft says that only about PCs, ie. PCs must have Secure Boot enabled, but the manufacturer can decide whether or not to allow end-users to disable that. But on ARM devices Secure Boot MUST be enabled and there must be absolutely no way for end-users to disable that or the manufacturer won't be allowed to sell Windows 8.

WereCatf said:
Actually, you're slightly incorrect there; Microsoft says that only about PCs, ie. PCs must have Secure Boot enabled, but the manufacturer can decide whether or not to allow end-users to disable that. But on ARM devices Secure Boot MUST be enabled and there must be absolutely no way for end-users to disable that or the manufacturer won't be allowed to sell Windows 8.
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Click to collapse
YES you are Totally correct. Sorry .. . either way Its bad news for the consumer.Giving manufactures this ability

Microsoft had Windows 7 working on ARM tablets 2 years ago. They are obviously looking at this potential market.

WereCatf said:
Yes, isn't that what we said already? Why is it that hard to believe?
Win8ARM will not be sold separately, it can only come preinstalled. Secondly, Microsoft is only allowing it on fully locked-down devices; no open bootloaders for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
while I don't doubt the A50x will not see Win8, I do have to say... What Microsoft WANTS and what we the users DO seldom go hand in hand

Nope
I can't understand why people even think that this could be possible? the ONLY chance you'd see WinRT running on A500 is that m$ used it as a development platform...like HTC HD2 got wp7. Also, you need someone inside to leak the test OS....
Porting an ARM OS it's all about proper drivers, considering the ARM version and SOC design are somehow on the same gen. Nobody is insane enough to try and port a CLOSED OS. Even if it wasn't closed tight, porting and tweaking drivers is a hell of a job...just look at Android ( a Linux based, open source OS), how hard is to get rid of bugs because manufacturers like to keep the drivers closed source.
Also, it is imperative for MS,in order to get a chance in tablet market, to have a close-to- flawless OS,just like IoS, where the bugs are scarce. getting this job done requires at least two big choices to be made. You can only do that by completely opening the whole OS and hardware, therefore rely on a full pool of devs< nobody's choice> or you can do it by having clearly drawn/ restricted hardware devices, like WP7 phones and IOS devices.
I don't believe in locked down BLs, but I see no way that an Android native device will ever run WinRT.

It will of course happen, but it will take tremendous work to do. This always happens to an allegedly locked down OS... case in point- Hackintoshs where people install OSX onto a PC. People were even putting Android onto old WinMo handsets.
But you inevitably end up with a device that doesn't work as well as the original. Drivers were mentioned, plus there's being off the update/patch path, and plain & simple bugs that always crop up.
tl;dr: Yes, expect it. No, it won't work well.

[Q] Windows 8 & Ipad 2 Dual Boot?

What does anybody think about Windows 8 and Ipad 2 dual booting ??Will it every happen?

warp64 said:
What does anybody think about Windows 8 and Ipad 2 dual booting ??Will it every happen?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I highly doubt it what with apples tight grasp on drivers and everything really
Sent from my A101IT using xda premium

no, it won't be.
W8ARM will not be available to consumers, only manufacturers, making liscences for ports almost, if not completely impossible to obtain. It will also require an encrypted bootloader and specific hardware, which the iPad 2/3 quite possibly won't meet up with. Even if those were able to be worked around, you'd need to create drivers for windows, and, as the idroid project as shown, creating new drivers for iOS devices is incredibly hard.
So no. give up all hope of W8ARM on existing Android/iOS/WebOS hardware now.
it MAY be possible to get W8ARM on a WP7/WP8 device, maybe even the HD2, seeing as they (should) have compatible drivers and since they're all Microsoft, there are theoretical loopholes for the licence. but that's still going to be difficult, and may never work properly.
TL;DR version - if you want Windows 8 ARM, buy a device that comes with it.

mtmerrick said:
no, it won't be.
W8ARM will not be available to consumers, only manufacturers, making liscences for ports almost, if not completely impossible to obtain. It will also require an encrypted bootloader and specific hardware, which the iPad 2/3 quite possibly won't meet up with. Even if those were able to be worked around, you'd need to create drivers for windows, and, as the idroid project as shown, creating new drivers for iOS devices is incredibly hard.
So no. give up all hope of W8ARM on existing Android/iOS/WebOS hardware now.
it MAY be possible to get W8ARM on a WP7/WP8 device, maybe even the HD2, seeing as they (should) have compatible drivers and since they're all Microsoft, there are theoretical loopholes for the licence. but that's still going to be difficult, and may never work properly.
TL;DR version - if you want Windows 8 ARM, buy a device that comes with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Damn, was hoping that my girlfriends iPad would eventually be able to do something useful however I never held high hopes! Goddamn Apple.

I still love my iPad 2 3G + WiFi 64GB any day, any time.

just wont happen. needs an UEFI bios

No It Will Never Happen...

on iPad never because of Apple's "simplicity" but maybe on some android tablets

no, it won't. the secure boot hardware, liscenceing, and drivers will make it impossible, unless you want to start soldering circuit boards and dealing with lawyers.

The two ( 2 ) people that want to dual boot ios/w8 are disappointed.
The rest of the world, ie, ipad owners...ask them if they want to boot w8 on their ipad. If they don't run away screaming "I hate Microsoft Office and got an ipad to get away from worrrrrrk!!!" Then you may be able to get more responses from them.
How many slates, er wait, we're calling them tablets again ? Have you seen in public ? Now how many ipads ? There will be no interest from the public, and even less from developers.

It wont happen that i am sure of

It can't happen since there is no bootrom exploit for the A5 chip. And Microsoft isn't likely to release an ISO or whatever for Windows on ARM either way.

seamless remote desktop to my w8 desktop
Because icons and touch imput are simular this would be a good work around.
Can you do this now with w7?

warp64 said:
What does anybody think about Windows 8 and Ipad 2 dual booting ??Will it every happen?
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Click to collapse
ill go one up on you and say Win8 and OSX. ive been watching a group shove OSX on my windows tablet, the project still has a few hurdles, but it boots!
check this out:
http://www.tonymacx86.com/viewtopic.php?f=170&t=39461

Win 8 on Asus Transformer TF101

Is There any port?
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

no, and there most likely never will be.
read the freakin forum, its in at least 3 threads in W8 D&H, several more in general.
the answer is no. move along.

^And you'll stand behind that line of logic despite the fact that it's being developed for ARM architecture as well?

mtmerrick said:
no, it won't be.
W8ARM will not be available to consumers, only manufacturers, making liscences for ports almost, if not completely impossible to obtain. It will also require an encrypted bootloader and specific hardware, which the iPad 2/3 quite possibly won't meet up with. Even if those were able to be worked around, you'd need to create drivers for windows, and, as the idroid project as shown, creating new drivers for iOS devices is incredibly hard.
So no. give up all hope of W8ARM on existing Android/iOS/WebOS hardware now.
it MAY be possible to get W8ARM on a WP7/WP8 device, maybe even the HD2, seeing as they (should) have compatible drivers and since they're all Microsoft, there are theoretical loopholes for the licence. but that's still going to be difficult, and may never work properly.
TL;DR version - if you want Windows 8 ARM, buy a device that comes with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
bunch of other threads that all say the same thing. this is established fact.
W8ARM will not be available to consumers, only OEMs. Porting to non W8ARM hardware will be illegal because W8ARM licences will not be transferable across devices. Porting will also be impossible because you will need to have a highly encrypted and specially signed by microsoft bootloader Since W8ARM is closed source, creating HW drivers for existing hardware from scratch will be incredibly difficult, if not impossible. Even if you were somehow able to get a W8ARM ROM created and running, it would be all sorts of violations to use it, and it would be removed from XDA before Microsoft's legal team started suing.
So no, give up hope for W8 on existing ARM devices.

As stated in my past (kindle fire) thread
Your first challenge will be the legal one, Microsoft is well known for employing a never ending batch of bloodthirsty lawyers to sue the pants off of anyone who infringes on them. Of course this can be avoided if you simply post "instructions to install your own copy of windows 8 on the kindle fire".
Your next one will be Drivers, well these can be reverse engineered and built if you are skilled enough.
Followed by Storage. I would assume the ARM version of Windows would use around 4-6 GB of Space. Is 2 GB enough to store your music and 3rd party apps?
Next is the Processor, I would hope that Windows 8 tablets use a Quad Core (Tegra3 for example) rather then the Dual Core of the Fire. Not a deal breaker but OUCH.
RAM is not a concern here. The ARM Chipset is a bit more efficient, thats without saying that 2-4 GB would not hurt.
Finally, the bios will be the final hurdle. Windows 8 will require a secured uEFI (Locked/Encrypted bios). This is HARDWARE, you would need to open your kindle and solder one in (its not that easy). Microsoft has already openly stated that this will be a REQUIREMENT on the ARM Chipset and optional on x86/x64.
Here is my advice, WAIT about a year after Windows 8 comes out... Just like Android, the market will eventually get flooded with cheap (and I do not mean inexpensive) Windows 8 tablets. They should retail between $300-$1XXX. Its not $200 like the fire, but those MS License Fees can hurt.
Now, You may have noticed, I did not say it was impossible to RUN Windows 8 on the Kindle Fire, just not as the primary OS. If I was forced into it, I would run QEMU (There are Android Ports), Install Windows 8 in the VM and RDP into the VM. I will warn you it will be VERY Slow and most likely unusable.

moved to general

Sideloading Apps on WP8

Hello guys,
I'm glad to write the first post in this section.
We've all seen the Microsoft Windows Phone Summit this morning (evening) and had to notice, that they've focused on an "Complete Security Platform". Due to their "Enterprise Ready - Fundamentals", they implemented a Secure Boot and Bitlocker Encryption.
This will be very good for all of you, who are depending on a phone, that doesen't share all it's data if it's getting stolen etc.. But those of you, who built application for customization or any further experience, will get stuck.
I'd really like to discuss these news with you.
(Is the microSD support a hint for a sideloading possibility?)
It has already been hard from an interop to a full unlock for the existing devices. The Lumia 900 is up to now unaccessible...
Will this be a disadvantage in comparison to the Android strategy?
All comments are welcome!!!
Titus

This is still all brand new, so I imagine later that someone will be provided with a prototype of some sort and may be able to answer those questions? I think we should start a donation for the pioneers of homebrew on WP so we can get something good done =)
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

Some pages state that there will be sideloading capabilities. I don't see those happen unless Microsoft is pretty sure that those can't be used to deploy Warez. Also companies will be able to deploy their own software so there has to be an alternate way to deploy software aside from the Marketplace.
But an official side load option would amount to pretty much the same as a current Developer unlock and deeper going functionality as what is provided by Interop/Full-Unlocks won't be available that way.
It is going to be interesting to get around those as the NT Kernel is likely to be a harder nut to crack than whatever Microsoft threw together on top of CE6 for WP7.

StevieBallz said:
Some pages state that there will be sideloading capabilities. I don't see those happen unless Microsoft is pretty sure that those can't be used to deploy Warez. Also companies will be able to deploy their own software so there has to be an alternate way to deploy software aside from the Marketplace.
But an official side load option would amount to pretty much the same as a current Developer unlock and deeper going functionality as what is provided by Interop/Full-Unlocks won't be available that way.
It is going to be interesting to get around those as the NT Kernel is likely to be a harder nut to crack than whatever Microsoft threw together on top of CE6 for WP7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed. It will be difficult to break and it may take some time, but good thing we have some awesome people that are devoted to making it happen

hack is possible
I think were looking at this from the wrong perspective. The App developers for Windows 8 Metro will be key in the implementation of hacking the Windows 8 phone. As Microsoft stated, this phone 8 will work harmoniously with 8 metro.
Windows 8 Metro is comprised of at least 80% HTML5 coded APPS. HTML5 has huge advantages that have been exploited before in the past.
So, If Windows phone 8 is comprised of similar HTML5 code. I'm sure developers will be able to comprise a boot hack to enable sideloading.
:good:

Shaggykjb said:
I think were looking at this from the wrong perspective. The App developers for Windows 8 Metro will be key in the implementation of hacking the Windows 8 phone. As Microsoft stated, this phone 8 will work harmoniously with 8 metro.
Windows 8 Metro is comprised of at least 80% HTML5 coded APPS. HTML5 has huge advantages that have been exploited before in the past.
So, If Windows phone 8 is comprised of similar HTML5 code. I'm sure developers will be able to comprise a boot hack to enable sideloading.
:good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't say a boot hack could be seen anytime soon due to bitlocker and secure boot.
Have you seen any exploits on the current Windows 8 through HTML5? Since Microsoft's implementations of ANYTHING are always different (Even when they say it is compliant), I would imagine that the HTML5 on W8 won't have the same exploits. I'm thinking it will be quite difficult, but I wouldn't say impossible. That's why I think we need the current WP7 hackers or even the Android hackers in on this... The ones that know and understand the low-level aspects of x86 and ARM to be able to know what is going on behind the scenes and try to get around it. Given that a good bit of the second gen windows phones still aren't able to be interop-unlocked and sideloaded, I am sure Microsoft has patched the ways those backdoors in w8 and wp8.

As so much Malware was installed through IE previously Microsoft did a great deal of work to harden it against Exploits. But furthermore it would only be the first step to find a vulnerability in the browser or an HTML5-App.
IE itself is run in it's own OS compartment which runs below regular user rights. So if code gets run in the Browser context it effectively can't do very much. This is one of the reasons why desktop exploits started to rely more heavily on Flash and Adobe Reader Bugs (those plugins ran on user privileges).
The HTML5-Apps are most likely to execute in the least priviledged chamber separated from each other very much alike to the way WP7s Silverlight Apps are isolated from each other.
Given that I guess it will need people who understand the system architecture pretty well to crack it open. The easiest vector for getting Homebrew Apps on most likely is the LOB (Line of Business)-App support.

Even if you were to find an exploit, it's highly doubtful that it will give you anything. WP8 is with UEFI Secure Boot something entirely new in that aspect, in that it's likely to see a full bottom-up chain of trust. You'd likely need to break UEFI itself to get any binaries persistently with elevated privileges. If the UEFI firmware is not upgradable on the device (for instanced burned on the chip) the protection is unlike for current phones theoretically perfect.
Of course, it remains to be seen in what extend WP8 will validate signatures, but if say any elevated code needs signing, then a permanent full/root unlock is very unlikely to achieve.
Hard SPL unlocks as they're seen with the Titan and Radar will also be a matter of the past with WP8.

TitusO said:
Hello guys,
I'm glad to write the first post in this section.
We've all seen the Microsoft Windows Phone Summit this morning (evening) and had to notice, that they've focused on an "Complete Security Platform". Due to their "Enterprise Ready - Fundamentals", they implemented a Secure Boot and Bitlocker Encryption.
This will be very good for all of you, who are depending on a phone, that doesen't share all it's data if it's getting stolen etc.. But those of you, who built application for customization or any further experience, will get stuck.
I'd really like to discuss these news with you.
(Is the microSD support a hint for a sideloading possibility?)
It has already been hard from an interop to a full unlock for the existing devices. The Lumia 900 is up to now unaccessible...
Will this be a disadvantage in comparison to the Android strategy?
All comments are welcome!!!
Titus
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i think if memory card access and file access as in symbian and android is available in windows 8 then we can sideload apps if not its impossible as inh lumia 900

vickylance said:
i think if memory card access and file access as in symbian and android is available in windows 8 then we can sideload apps if not its impossible as inh lumia 900
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You have removable SD card support and can install applications to it. However, Microsoft stated that sideloading is only available for enterprises for a (nominal) fee. Meaning, it's highly likely that the phone will check signatures on all applications, including those on the SD card and you won't be able to run them otherwise. (actually WP7 does this already - if your devel unlock expires and the phone relocks, all unsigned apps will not run anymore)

ZetaZynK said:
However, Microsoft stated that sideloading is only available for enterprises for a (nominal) fee.
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Have you got any source for Microsoft anouncing a fee per device to allow this. To my knowledge not much is yet announced in that regard. We know that there will be a cloud based solution for Management/Deployment (most likely inTune) and an on premise one.
According to CNet Asia a Microsoft Employee during Technet told them that SD-Card installation meant installation from SD-Card instead of App-Installation to the SD-Card (see here: http://asia.cnet.com/apps-cannot-be-installed-to-microsd-cards-on-wp8-62217133.htm)

The latest rumor is that WP8 will include TPM chips on all handsets. Thus will drive added hardware security to the firmware. I am feeling very skeptical that WP8 will be rootable as a result. I have a TPM system in my Win 8 laptop and it is damned secure.
Sent from my Kindle Fire running ICS

StevieBallz said:
Have you got any source for Microsoft anouncing a fee per device to allow this. To my knowledge not much is yet announced in that regard. We know that there will be a cloud based solution for Management/Deployment (most likely inTune) and an on premise one.
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Hm, I believed I had read this, but seems you're correct. Not sure where I believed to have done so right now.
kenikh said:
The latest rumor is that WP8 will include TPM chips on all handsets.
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TPM is not the problem here - secure boot is. Considering Microsoft announced secure boot as part of the WP8 announcement, it's kind of likely that all devices will ship it.
Secure boot and a TPM both can deliver a trusted boot path, but with significant differences in the execution. With a TPM you store a key and Platform Context Registers (PCRs) on the module - if the PCRs mismatch then some part of the configuration was altered which is likely indicating a breach of trust in the boot path. With Secure Boot, one or more vendor generated keys (and not a self-generated one, like on a TPM)are stored in the system's firmware. If the boot loader is not signed by one of those keys, the device refuses to boot. This means that you can't replace the boot loader with custom code (as you do with for instance a HSPL). In a TPM-based scenario, the user can re-assign TPM ownership, Secure Boot has no such concept.
Note: x86 PCs will come with Secure Boot too, soon. However, MSFT requires ARM devices to have these keys assigned by the OEM and requires the manufacturer to allow changing the keys or disabling Secure Boot - for x86, they require the opposite, a PC without an option to add your own keys or to disable secure boot would fail the Windows 8 hardware certification.

If you come across the information again please let us know. There seems to be some confusion on the SD card topic (WinSuperSite reported differently).
As for secure boot and the TPM: if Microsoft decides to make CustomROMs hard the best course of action seems to emulate the "Enterprise Marketplace" given the assumption that those won't user Microsoft certificates but instead company certificates (which could be installed by the user similarily to the Exchange server certificates today). But we'll have to wait and see how that gets implemented in the end.
PS: Just found the following on Microsofts Windows Phone Developer Blog
LOB app deployment – Many enterprises understandably want to keep their line-of-business (LOB) apps in-house, controlling how they get published and deployed. In Windows Phone 8, we support several new channels for deploying LOB apps to enterprise devices, including installing from a website, SharePoint, or email.
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Sounds pretty much like sideloading might be a lot easier then we think it is.

Here is the problem with this... We're going to see DRM to the max. This has a chance of ruining the experience, just look at Apple recently. Also side-loading could be bad for the OS as look at Google with the possible Botnet + Trojans.
More importantly as a Dev, I fear more than anything, my code will be stolen, even if I Obfuscate the XAP. I rather my App be taken than my coding be compromised.

lseidman said:
Here is the problem with this... We're going to see DRM to the max. This has a chance of ruining the experience, just look at Apple recently.
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Microsoft ruins the experience for WP7s even more imho. There's really a lot of essential stuff that unlocked WP7s can do, but that stock WP7 is unable to do.
lseidman said:
Also side-loading could be bad for the OS as look at Google with the possible Botnet + Trojans.
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This can be easily worked around: If they just made developer unlocks free (keeping the same deployment system as is), that would make it near to impossible for malware to spread.
lseidman said:
More importantly as a Dev, I fear more than anything, my code will be stolen, even if I Obfuscate the XAP. I rather my App be taken than my coding be compromised.
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...and this is why I believe WP8 will have security measures against abuse of that private app deployment feature. Also, XAPs are not even badly protected right now.

Just for fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSnkWzZ7ZAA
He uses WP7 on 1:50

THE most informative thread on the WP8 section hands down....all u guys...BIG thanx for all the info...
Sent from my DROID RaZr.

This information is kind of making me question whether I really want to switch from Android to WP8. Anyone having used both android and WP8 want to share their thoughts? I know WP7/8 is closed similar to iOS but I think I'd like to atleast be able to sideload apps.

devize said:
This information is kind of making me question whether I really want to switch from Android to WP8. Anyone having used both android and WP8 want to share their thoughts? I know WP7/8 is closed similar to iOS but I think I'd like to atleast be able to sideload apps.
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Stick with Android. Windows phone will not be developer friendly. This is my biggest problem with windows phone. The whole works out of the box experience really doesn't work when the software is young and lacking basic functionality . There is barely anything you can do with wp7 right now and winp8 is supposed to be even more locked down
Sent from my T8788 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App