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Even though I have followed dev/porting for 8 months starting with HTC Touch, I have little knowledge of how it is actually done. So here's my question to the developers.
We all know that Nexus S (2?) will have Gingerbread 2.3. Looking at the rumored specs and model number, it seems that Nexus S is a slight upgrade from Galaxy S.
Assuming most of the hardware is identical to Galaxy S, how easy is it to port 2.3 to Epic 4G, once Galaxy S becomes available?
Specifically, what is needed to bake a new 2.3 rom? Do you need to reverse engineer like what devs did on HTC WM devices? Or is it a straight port? I suspect it's somewhere in between but want to hear from you.
(If necessary, please move this to android development forum.)
The simple answer to this (which has been answered in other threads already if you looked) is no its won't be easy.
Also, the Nexus S is rumored and pretty much guaranteed to launch with a dual core processor. The rumor is that they delayed the device and gingerbread to implement this, since it will be google's new flagship device and has to be cutting edge. Everyone knows that dual core processors are set to hit the market within the first couple months of 2011 anyway, so releasing an old generation processor in a flagship google phone just makes no sense.
So no, it will not be easy to port from the Nexus S. It will not only have a completely different processor, but will also probably only be a GSM phone.
muyoso said:
but will also probably only be a GSM phone.
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I agree and think this is the bigger problem (for the Epic at least).
Sure would be nice if the folks at Google would release at one clean Google device for each carrier. I'd be on it in a heart beat.
vansmack said:
I agree and think this is the bigger problem (for the Epic at least).
Sure would be nice if the folks at Google would release at one clean Google device for each carrier. I'd be on it in a heart beat.
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Yes that would be nice if they did that.I am surprised they are even doing another google phone by the way it sounded when they stopped marketing the nexus 1 that had no interest in doing another google branded phone.
muyoso said:
Also, the Nexus S is rumored and pretty much guaranteed to launch with a dual core processor. The rumor is that they delayed the device and gingerbread to implement this, since it will be google's new flagship device and has to be cutting edge. Everyone knows that dual core processors are set to hit the market within the first couple months of 2011 anyway, so releasing an old generation processor in a flagship google phone just makes no sense.
So no, it will not be easy to port from the Nexus S. It will not only have a completely different processor, but will also probably only be a GSM phone.
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Those are just rumors, all of the official specs that have come out say it will be a 1.2ghz hummingbird. The dual core 1ghz orion chip is definitely on the horizon but I highly doubt they will be able to get it in at the last minute, and there's a good chance we won't see it in phones until late next year. All rumors of a dual core Nexus S have had no credibility with their sources.
That said, if this turns out to be a dual core phone and gingerbread turns out to be optimized for dual cores, a port will probably be very difficult. But if it's just a 1.2ghz hummingbird then it would just be a matter of getting the CDMA radio working.
LucJoe said:
Those are just rumors, all of the official specs that have come out say it will be a 1.2ghz hummingbird. The dual core 1ghz orion chip is definitely on the horizon but I highly doubt they will be able to get it in at the last minute, and there's a good chance we won't see it in phones until late next year. All rumors of a dual core Nexus S have had no credibility with their sources.
That said, if this turns out to be a dual core phone and gingerbread turns out to be optimized for dual cores, a port will probably be very difficult. But if it's just a 1.2ghz hummingbird then it would just be a matter of getting the CDMA radio working.
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The reason that I think he has to have a dual core in it is as follows:
If it has a 1.2 ghz hummingbird processor, BFD. It immediately launches and is mediocre. Nothing exciting at all about it.
If it launches as the first dual core phone, it is the top of the line phone worthy of being branded as a Google flagship device.
Also, if it just had a 1.2 ghz hummingbird processor, what is the holdup? It is no different from phones released months ago. Also, if its a 1.2 Ghz processor, it will be eclipsed within a matter of a month or two performance wise by Tegra 2 and dual core snapdragon processors. Basically, it would be an embarassing flagship device. The original Nexus is still to this day a damn good phone that is near the top of the pack of android phones performance wise, and it is a year old.
muyoso said:
The reason that I think he has to have a dual core in it is as follows:
If it has a 1.2 ghz hummingbird processor, BFD. It immediately launches and is mediocre. Nothing exciting at all about it.
If it launches as the first dual core phone, it is the top of the line phone worthy of being branded as a Google flagship device.
Also, if it just had a 1.2 ghz hummingbird processor, what is the holdup? It is no different from phones released months ago. Also, if its a 1.2 Ghz processor, it will be eclipsed within a matter of a month or two performance wise by Tegra 2 and dual core snapdragon processors. Basically, it would be an embarassing flagship device. The original Nexus is still to this day a damn good phone that is near the top of the pack of android phones performance wise, and it is a year old.
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You are fully aware the the Tegra 2 do not even exceed the hummingbird in gpu or cpu performance right? Im just saying cause it would suck if you didn't know what you're talking about.
Plus gingerbread will have HW acceleration, putting gpu performance on a step for the overall fluidity of the gui. So again... what's faster?
Really? I assumed it would greatly ourperform. Where did u get your facts.
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InfDaMarvel said:
Really? I assumed it would greatly ourperform. Where did u get your facts.
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Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm trying to find the article again, but i know they were close but Tegra 2 did not outperform the hummingbird. Apparently now they optimized the platform more.
Don't get me wrong i love nvidia, that's all i've purchased and stayed with them even thou they still dont have a decent dx11 card that doesnt need 2 power supplies. But they really need to step up and their CEO needs to wattch what he says and deliver more.
Here's a quote "On the 3D side, Nvidia says it has doubled the performance of the initial Tegra, resulting in a peak speed of 90 million triangles per second. This level is well beyond the performance of any mobile processor shipping or even sampling today." Hummingbird has the same exact performance. And CPU performance is a very interesting area. Anyway the GPU performance is almost par with the Hummingbird leading maybe by 3-5%
apatcas said:
I'm trying to find the article again, but i know they were close but Tegra 2 did not outperform the hummingbird. Apparently now they optimized the platform more.
Don't get me wrong i love nvidia, that's all i've purchased and stayed with them even thou they still dont have a decent dx11 card that doesnt need 2 power supplies. But they really need to step up and their CEO needs to wattch what he says and deliver more.
Here's a quote "On the 3D side, Nvidia says it has doubled the performance of the initial Tegra, resulting in a peak speed of 90 million triangles per second. This level is well beyond the performance of any mobile processor shipping or even sampling today." Hummingbird has the same exact performance. And CPU performance is a very interesting area. Anyway the GPU performance is almost par with the Hummingbird leading maybe by 3-5%
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Since Tegra 2 is dual core and android does not have 2 core support till Gingerbread (Actually I don't think it even supports cortex A9 till gingerbread)..so if they ran 1 core vs 1 core I'd see a hummingbird win against a Tegra 2..but if Tegra 2 is running dual core (and optimized for it) it should win...but by that analogy Orion would then be superior.
gTen said:
Since Tegra 2 is dual core and android does not have 2 core support till Gingerbread (Actually I don't think it even supports cortex A9 till gingerbread)..so if they ran 1 core vs 1 core I'd see a hummingbird win against a Tegra 2..but if Tegra 2 is running dual core (and optimized for it) it should win...but by that analogy Orion would then be superior.
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Click to collapse
Not to mention that Tegra 2 does 1080P video recording. So yes, releasing a google flagship phone that within one month is eclipsed by LG with the first Tegra 2 phone, would be embarrassing. The Nexus 1 set the standard for almost a year, before the Galaxy S line came out. If the Nexus 2 can only set the standard for under a month, that would be stupid. Therefore, it is easy to conclude that the rumors of the Nexus S having a dual core are most likely true. Doesn't mean it has to be the Orion, but it would be awesome if it was.
Tegra 2 is a Cortex A9 CPU... as is the Samsung Orion and the TI OMAP4xxx chips. They accomplish 2.5 instructions per MHz as opposed to the 2 instructions per MHz in the Cortex A8 Hummingbird, and that's not counting improvements to instruction efficiency (getting more done with less instructions.) Add to that improvements such as out of order instruction handling and dual-channel memory support and Cortex A9 chips are head and shoulders above Cortex A8.
The only reason Tegra 2 wouldn't outperform Hummingbird significantly is, as mentioned, lack of dual-core support in current builds of Android, and the nVidia GPU which is, surprisingly, only just about on par with Hummingbird's PowerVR SGX540.
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Electrofreak said:
Tegra 2 is a Cortex A9 CPU... as is the Samsung Orion and the TI OMAP4xxx chips. They accomplish 2.5 instructions per MHz as opposed to the 2 instructions per MHz in the Cortex A8 Hummingbird, and that's not counting improvements to instruction efficiency (getting more done with less instructions.) Add to that improvements such as out of order instruction handling and dual-channel memory support and Cortex A9 chips are head and shoulders above Cortex A8.
The only reason Tegra 2 wouldn't outperform Hummingbird significantly is, as mentioned, lack of dual-core support in current builds of Android, and the nVidia GPU which is, surprisingly, only just about on par with Hummingbird's PowerVR SGX540.
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Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK here's facts dudes. Tegra sucks... really please get it.
Tegra250 based Toshiba AC100 Running Neocore Benchmark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJav9ns6b4o
apatcas said:
OK here's facts dudes. Tegra sucks... really please get it.
Tegra250 based Toshiba AC100 Running Neocore Benchmark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJav9ns6b4o
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I'm not sure that triangles per second is accurate to describe performance.
Still, if you want an article:
http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=17125
The Hummingbird has memory bandwidth limitations that I don't think the Tegra 250 will. Lets wait and see.
apatcas said:
OK here's facts dudes. Tegra sucks... really please get it.
Tegra250 based Toshiba AC100 Running Neocore Benchmark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJav9ns6b4o
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's the facts dude, and try to get this; Tegra2 does not, in fact, suck. You just posted a video of it being benchmarked on a netbook running Android 2.1 which cannot make full use of Tegra2's dual-core CPU. Secondly, neocore is a GPU test, not a CPU test. We already discussed the fact that the Tegra2 GPU is only just about on par with the SGX540. Thirdly, that test is being run at a signifcantly higher resolution than a mobile device would run, and frankly, considering this, the score isn't bad.
Fail, man, fail.
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sauron0101 said:
I'm not sure that triangles per second is accurate to describe performance.
Still, if you want an article:
http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=17125
The Hummingbird has memory bandwidth limitations that I don't think the Tegra 250 will. Lets wait and see.
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Click to collapse
I would also like to point out that I wrote the article that sauron0101 just linked. It's also posted on my blog (linked in my signature) posted back in March. Tegra2 does feature dual-channel memory support as part of the Cortex A9 architecture, which is a significant advantage.
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Electrofreak said:
I would also like to point out that I wrote the article that sauron0101 just linked. It's also posted on my blog (linked in my signature) posted back in March. Tegra2 does feature dual-channel memory support as part of the Cortex A9 architecture, which is a significant advantage.
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Click to collapse
Any idea how fast the other Arm Cortex A9s are compared to the 250?
- We know that the SGX540 will be in the TI OMAP 4 series; probably not bandwidth limited - I am surprised that they did not opt for the SGX545
- The Samsung Orion series has Mail 400 (unknown performance)
- The Snapdragon (A8 unless Qualcomm opts to keep the name "Snapdragon for its A9 CPUs) will have a new generation of Adreno 300 graphics
Unknown if we will see this on mobile
- Marvell also has a new SOC
Also interesting is Samsung's Netbook roadmap, which uses the same SOCs on a phone:
Sorry if all of this is a bit off topic, but it is worth looking at what everyone has.
Edit: Qualcomm is keeping the Snapdragon name for the A9 processors.
Does no one see i was talking about Gpu perfomance? That's what's gonna matter in Gingerbread. And that's running 1024x600 on that res Galaxy tab is around 53 fps. It's the same thing that Vista started doing with HW accel so u understand.
I'm probably the only person on this planet that would ever download a 20.5-meg, 2426-page document titled "S5PC110 RISC Microprocessor User's Manual", but if there are other hardware freaks out there interested, here you go:
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=repository&id=644&c=samsung_s5pc110_microprocessor_user_manual_1.00
As you may or may not know, the S5PC110, better known as Hummingbird, is the SoC (System on a Chip) that is the brain of your Epic. Now, when you have those moments when you really just gotta know the memory buffer size for your H.264 encoder or are dying to pore over a block diagram of your SGX540 GPU architecture, you can!
( Note: It does get a little bit dry at parts. Unless you're an ARM engineer, I suppose. )
Why arent you working on porting CM6 or gingerbread via CM7?? lol
now we can overclock the gpu
/sarcasm
cbusillo said:
Why arent you working on porting CM6 or gingerbread via CM7?? lol
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Click to collapse
Hah, because I know exactly squat about Android development. Hardware is more my thing, though if I find some spare time to play around with the Android SDK maybe that can change.
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This actually is really exciting news. RISC architectures in general, especially the ARM instruction set is great and honestly it would so the works a lot of good kicking the chains of x86
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Interesting - the complete technical design of the Hummingbird chips.
After reading your blog as to how Hummingbird got its extra performance, I still wonder at times - did we make the right choice in getting this phone the Epic 4G (I bought one for $300 off contract and imported it to Canada) knowing that there are going to be ARM Cortex A9 CPUs coming around in just a couple of months? We know that in the real world, Hummingbird is more powerful than Snapdragon and the OMAP 3600 series, while benchmark scores tend to not reflect real world performance.
Performance-wise: It's know that the out of order A9 parts are at least 30% faster clock for clock in real world performance. There will be dual and maybe quad core implementations. What's really up in the air is the graphics performance of the A9 parts. There's now the Power VR SGX 545, the Mali 400, and the Tegra 2.
Edit: There is also the successor, the Mali T-604. I don't expect to see this in a phone in the near future. Nor do I expect the Tegra 3. Maybe close to this time next year though.
sauron0101 said:
Interesting - the complete technical design of the Hummingbird chips.
After reading your blog as to how Hummingbird got its extra performance, I still wonder at times - did we make the right choice in getting this phone the Epic 4G (I bought one for $300 off contract and imported it to Canada) knowing that there are going to be ARM Cortex A9 CPUs coming around in just a couple of months? We know that in the real world, Hummingbird is more powerful than Snapdragon and the OMAP 3600 series, while benchmark scores tend to not reflect real world performance.
Performance-wise: It's know that the out of order A9 parts are at least 30% faster clock for clock in real world performance. There will be dual and maybe quad core implementations. What's really up in the air is the graphics performance of the A9 parts. There's now the Power VR SGX 545, the Mali 400, and the Tegra 2.
Edit: There is also the successor, the Mali T-604. I don't expect to see this in a phone in the near future. Nor do I expect the Tegra 3. Maybe close to this time next year though.
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Your always going to be playing catchup..I personally think the Epic has great hardware for the time...I mean on Samsung's roadmap for 2012/13 is their Aquila processor which is a quad-core 1.2ghz..its going to be endless catchup..every year there will be something that completely over shallows the rest..
gTen said:
Your always going to be playing catchup..I personally think the Epic has great hardware for the time...I mean on Samsung's roadmap for 2012/13 is their Aquila processor which is a quad-core 1.2ghz..its going to be endless catchup..every year there will be something that completely over shallows the rest..
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No, but I mean, if you buy the latest technology when its released, you'll be set for quite some time.
For example, if you were to buy the one of the first Tegra 2 phones, its unlikely that anything is going to be beating that significantly until at least 2012 when the quad core parts begin to emerge.
It takes a year or so from the time that a CPU is announced to the time that it gets deployed in a handset. For example, the Snapdragon was announced in late 2008 and the first phones (HD2) were about a year later. IF you buy an A9 dual core part early on, you should be set for some time.
Well, I got the Epic knowing Tegra 2 was coming in a few months with next-gen performance. I was badly in need of a new phone and the Epic, while not a Cortex A9, is no slouch.
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sauron0101 said:
No, but I mean, if you buy the latest technology when its released, you'll be set for quite some time.
For example, if you were to buy the one of the first Tegra 2 phones, its unlikely that anything is going to be beating that significantly until at least 2012 when the quad core parts begin to emerge.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats relative, in terms of GPU performance our Hummingbird doesn't do so badly..the GPU the TI chose to pair with the dual core OMAP is effectively a PowerVR SGX540..the Snapdragon that is rumored to be in the dual cores next summer is also on par with our GPU performance...so yes we will loose out to newer hardware..which is to be expected but I wouldn't consider it a slouch either...
It takes a year or so from the time that a CPU is announced to the time that it gets deployed in a handset. For example, the Snapdragon was announced in late 2008 and the first phones (HD2) were about a year later. IF you buy an A9 dual core part early on, you should be set for some time.
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The first phone was a TG01, that said I guarantee you that a year if not less from the first Tegra release there will be a better processor out...its bound to happen..
Edit: Some benchmarks for Tablets:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4067/nvidia-tegra-2-graphics-performance-update
Though I am not sure if its using both cores or not...also Tegra 2 I think buffers at 16bit..while Hummingbird buffers at 24bit..
gTen said:
Thats relative, in terms of GPU performance our Hummingbird doesn't do so badly..the GPU the TI chose to pair with the dual core OMAP is effectively a PowerVR SGX540..the Snapdragon that is rumored to be in the dual cores next summer is also on par with our GPU performance...so yes we will loose out to newer hardware..which is to be expected but I wouldn't consider it a slouch either...
The first phone was a TG01, that said I guarantee you that a year if not less from the first Tegra release there will be a better processor out...its bound to happen..
Edit: Some benchmarks for Tablets:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4067/nvidia-tegra-2-graphics-performance-update
Though I am not sure if its using both cores or not...also Tegra 2 I think buffers at 16bit..while Hummingbird buffers at 24bit..
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AFAIK, dual-core support is only fully supported by Honeycomb. But if you feel like buying into NVIDIA's explanation of Tegra 2 performance, check this out: http://www.nvidia.com/content/PDF/t...-Multi-core-CPUs-in-Mobile-Devices_Ver1.2.pdf
Electrofreak said:
AFAIK, dual-core support is only fully supported by Honeycomb. But if you feel like buying into NVIDIA's explanation of Tegra 2 performance, check this out: http://www.nvidia.com/content/PDF/t...-Multi-core-CPUs-in-Mobile-Devices_Ver1.2.pdf
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I see I actually read before that Gingerbread would allow for dual core support but I guess that was delayed to honeycomb...
either way this would mean even if a Tegra based phone comes out it wont be able to utilize both cored until at least mid next year.
I can't open pdfs right now but I read a whitepaper with performance of hummingbird and Tegra 2 compared both on single core and dual core..is that the same one?
One thing though is Nvidia and ATI are quite known for tweaking their gfx cards to perform well on benchmarks...I hope its not the same with their CPUs :/
gTen said:
Edit: Some benchmarks for Tablets:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4067/nvidia-tegra-2-graphics-performance-update
Though I am not sure if its using both cores or not...also Tegra 2 I think buffers at 16bit..while Hummingbird buffers at 24bit..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here are some additional benchmarks comparing the Galaxy Tab to the Viewsonic G Tablet:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4062/samsung-galaxy-tab-the-anandtech-review/5
It's possible that the Tegra 2 isn't optimized yet. Not to mention, Honeycomb will be the release that makes the most of dual cores. However, there are lackluster performance gains in terms of graphics - most of it seems to be purely CPU gains in performance.
I'm not entirely sure that Neocore is representative of real world performance either. It's possible that it may have been optimized for some platforms. Furthermore, I would not be surprised if Neocore gave inflated scores for the Snapdragon and it's Adreno graphics platform. Of course, neither is Quadrant.
I think that real world games like Quake III based games are the way to go, although until we see more graphics demanding games, I suppose that there's little to test (we're expecting more games for Android next year).
Finally, we've gotten to a point for web browsing where its the data connection HSPA+, LTE, or WiMAX that will dictate how fast pages load. It's like upgrading the CPU for a PC. I currently run an overclocked q6600 - if I were to upgrade to say a Sandy Bridge when it comes out next year, I don't expect significant improvements in real world browsing performance.
Eventually, the smartphone market will face the same problem that the PC market does. Apart from us enthusiasts who enjoy benchmarking and overclocking, apart from high end gaming, and perhaps some specialized operations (like video encoding which I do a bit of), you really don't need the latest and greatest CPU or 6+ GB of RAM (which many new desktops come with). Same with high end GPUs. Storage follows the same dilemna. I imagine that as storage grows, I'll be storing FLAC music files instead of AAC, MP3, or OGG, and more video. I will also use my cell phone to replace my USB key drive. Otherwise, there's no need for bigger storage.
gTen said:
I see I actually read before that Gingerbread would allow for dual core support but I guess that was delayed to honeycomb...
either way this would mean even if a Tegra based phone comes out it wont be able to utilize both cored until at least mid next year.
I can't open pdfs right now but I read a whitepaper with performance of hummingbird and Tegra 2 compared both on single core and dual core..is that the same one?
One thing though is Nvidia and ATI are quite known for tweaking their gfx cards to perform well on benchmarks...I hope its not the same with their CPUs :/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gingerbread doesn't have any dual-core optimizations. It has some JIT improvements in addition to some other minor enhancements, but according to rumor, Honeycomb is where it's at, and it's why the major tablet manufacturers are holding off releasing their Tegra 2 tablets until it's released.
And yeah, that paper shows the performance of several different Cortex A8s (including Hummingbird) compared to Tegra 2, and then goes on to compare Tegra 2 single-core performance vs dual.
Electrofreak said:
Gingerbread doesn't have any dual-core optimizations. It has some JIT improvements in addition to some other minor enhancements, but according to rumor, Honeycomb is where it's at, and it's why the major tablet manufacturers are holding off releasing their Tegra 2 tablets until it's released.
And yeah, that paper shows the performance of several different Cortex A8s (including Hummingbird) compared to Tegra 2, and then goes on to compare Tegra 2 single-core performance vs dual.
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Click to collapse
I looked at:
http://androidandme.com/2010/11/new...u-will-want-to-buy-a-dual-core-mobile-device/
since I can't access the pdf..does the whitepaper state what version they used to do their tests? for example if they used 2.1 on the sgs and honeycomb on their tests it wouldn't exactly be a fair comparison...do they also put in the actual FPS..not % wise? for example we are capped on the FPS for example...
Lastly, in the test does it say whether the Tegra 2 was dithering at 16bit or 24bit?
gTen said:
I looked at:
http://androidandme.com/2010/11/new...u-will-want-to-buy-a-dual-core-mobile-device/
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Click to collapse
I'm one of Taylor's (unofficial) tech consultants, and I spoke with him regarding that article. Though, credit where it's due to Taylor, he's been digging stuff up recently that I don't have a clue about. We've talked about Honeycomb and dual-core tablets, and since Honeycomb will be the first release of Android to support tablets officially, and since Motorola seems to be holding back the release of its Tegra 2 tablet until Honeycomb (quickly checks AndroidAndMe to make sure I haven't said anything Taylor hasn't already said), and rumors say that Honeycomb will have dual-core support, it all makes sense.
But yes, the whitepaper is the one he used to base that article on.
gTen said:
since I can't access the pdf..does the whitepaper state what version they used to do their tests? for example if they used 2.1 on the sgs and honeycomb on their tests it wouldn't exactly be a fair comparison...do they also put in the actual FPS..not % wise? for example we are capped on the FPS for example...
Lastly, in the test does it say whether the Tegra 2 was dithering at 16bit or 24bit?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android 2.2 was used in all of their tests according to the footnotes in the document. While I believe that Android 2.2 is capable of using both cores simultaneously, I don't believe it is capable of threading them separately. But that's just my theory. I'm just going off of what the Gingerbread documentation from Google says; and unfortunately there is no mention of improved multi-core processor support in Gingerbread.
http://developer.android.com/sdk/android-2.3-highlights.html
As for FPS and the dithering... they don't really go there; the whitepaper is clearly focused on CPU performance, and so it features benchmark scores and timed results. I take it all with a pinch of salt anyhow; despite the graphs and such, it's still basically an NVIDIA advertisement.
That said, Taylor has been to one of their expos or whatever you call it, and he's convinced that the Tegra 2 GPU will perform several times better than the SGX 540 in the Galaxy S phones. I'm not so sure I'm convinced... I've seen comparable performance benchmarks come from the LG Tegra 2 phone, but Taylor claims it was an early build with and he's seen even better performance. Time will tell I suppose...
EDIT - As for not being able to access the .pdfs, what are you talking about?! XDA app / browser and Adobe Reader!
So I like many of you am thinking of jumping to tegra 2 within the.next year. I personally build pcs for myself and have always been a loyal fan of geforce gpu cards and nforce boards. So when I learned of tegra 2 I nearly creamed my pants. But after modding my phone running midnight I've turned this into a beast. Scoring 1100/2700 in smartbench and 2000 in quadrant I went looking for any benches tegra 2. I found a quadrant bench of the bionic and it scored around 2200. I know benches mean nothing but these scores are pretty close. What do you guys think are gonna be some advantages you see speed wise with tegra? Im trying to determine if the jump would be worth it...
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Tegra 2 will murder Epic's gpu,i would say its 3-4 times more powerfull.But who want Tegra without Super Amoled?lol,not me.
Good point lol I know samsung sucks at updates but I think if they get the sgs2 right ill be looking forward to it. Samoled is amazing. I want a 42 inch samoled tv. Wow I just really thought about that and it sounds amazing.
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lviv73 said:
Tegra 2 will murder Epic's gpu,i would say its 3-4 times more powerfull.But who want Tegra without Super Amoled?lol,not me.
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The Tegra 2 GPU is not 3-4 times more powerful...if anything the GPU is where the Epic is closest to the Tegra 2..(of course the Tegra 2 GPU supports some nice new protocols but in terms of raw power)
RushAOZ said:
So I like many of you am thinking of jumping to tegra 2 within the.next year. I personally build pcs for myself and have always been a loyal fan of geforce gpu cards and nforce boards. So when I learned of tegra 2 I nearly creamed my pants. But after modding my phone running midnight I've turned this into a beast. Scoring 1100/2700 in smartbench and 2000 in quadrant I went looking for any benches tegra 2. I found a quadrant bench of the bionic and it scored around 2200. I know benches mean nothing but these scores are pretty close. What do you guys think are gonna be some advantages you see speed wise with tegra? Im trying to determine if the jump would be worth it...
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Here is the things to consider besides quadrant being flawed:
1) The Tegra 2 right now is not optimized and is not using the dual core..its only using 1 core..Dual Core support and optimizations will come with Honeycomb..
2) The Hummingbird is also not optimized and will be optimized in Gingerbread
3) The GPU on the Epic dithers at 24bit while Tegra 2 still does 16bit dithering...
4) The GPU on the Epic is FPS locked...so its definitely capable of more..
Its kinda hard to say what the performance will be of both once the smoke clears..but the Tegra 2 is 40nm and is based of Cortex A9 which give it a lot of advantages..the disadvantages would lie in whether or not applications would support dual core and if they will when and how efficiently..
I estimate though Tegra 2 would definitely win on CPU processing from 25%-100% depending on whether or not it can use both cores..and in terms of GPU it would be around the same to 50% better depending if there is dual core support or not...(assuming that we unlock the FPS and find a way to make it dither the same amount of bits)
Edit: Forgot to add a conclusion~~
Conclusion is that a Tegra 2 is definitely an upgrade BUT until Honeycomb comes into play we would definitely be competitive...beyond that we won't be a slouch(I mean people still use EVOs even though ours is superior by a good margin)..but its no question Tegra 2 will surpass us..
Oh and on the Nvidia tibit...I am pretty pissed at them after what they did with the laptops..they have been serving faulty chipsets for laptops for YEARS and bribing manufacturers to use them..which has me pretty pissed...even though I hear latest chipsets 400+ series are ok..but I probably won't be buying a nvidia laptop for a while..desktop gpus are ok with me though..
RushAOZ said:
Good point lol I know samsung sucks at updates but I think if they get the sgs2 right ill be looking forward to it. Samoled is amazing. I want a 42 inch samoled tv. Wow I just really thought about that and it sounds amazing.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Usually TVs tend to be Passive Matrix OLED and not Active Matrix OLED..anyways..that said I have seen an OLED TV at CES 2011..Don't now exact size it was as I viewed from a distance and had a person distracting me..I think it was 32"-46" somewhere there..and I'll tell you this IT WAS OUT OF THIS WORLD...or more precisely in this world..it was like looking through a glass window and they could pop out any time..thats how realistic it looked...I mean those 3rd TVs are suppose to "come out" but I think thats over-rated..look at an OLED TV and thats where its at..it was simply amazing...
Check out Galaxy S2.
I want the atrix on sprint. Seriously though has spelrint even announced any dual cores coming out this year?
Sent from my Evo Killer!!!
musclehead84 said:
I want the atrix on sprint. Seriously though has spelrint even announced any dual cores coming out this year?
Sent from my Evo Killer!!!
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I'm sure i wasn't the only one that noticed that none of the big CES phones were for sprint.... I don't think sprint even had a showing at CES
Were waiting for the 12th for they're announcement. The attic does sound amazing... but I don't like Motorola at all. I hate the droids and every moto phone I've had screwed me one way or another. I just hope that sprint nails the best version of the sgs2. Epic 2 4g
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
I thought it was Feb 7th?
ort84 said:
I thought it was Feb 7th?
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it Is 8)
http://www.androidcentral.com/whats-sprint-conjuring-feb-7
I'm personally waiting for orion to make the jump to dual core. The tegra 2 is a nice upgrade for a non-hummingbird
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
What in your opinion is going to be the best dual core processors? Example tegra, Orion,nvida etc.
Sent from my Evo Killer!!!
Anybody know the specs on the supposed epic 2?
Sent from my Evo Killer!!!
RushAOZ said:
Were waiting for the 12th for they're announcement. The attic does sound amazing... but I don't like Motorola at all. I hate the droids and every moto phone I've had screwed me one way or another. I just hope that sprint nails the best version of the sgs2. Epic 2 4g
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
That is true of all phones except the razor. That was one well made phone, even see ones at least based off them these days. Those used to not break, remember when cell phones didn't break daily?
I'm sure soon the quadcore in the new ngp psp is going in a phone.
I just doubt seriously that it makes much of a difference at all as android at this point is not capable of running multiple threads from my understanding. The Nvidia GPU in the tegra 2 phones is pretty much on the same performance level as ours so thats not even a factor.
The rumor mill has GB offering up true multi core support on the phone, we will see how that goes, because the rumor mill had froyo supporting it too.
Multi core CPU's are awesome if you are endlessly running multiple cpu intensive tasks, on your phone I doubt you will be.
musclehead84 said:
What in your opinion is going to be the best dual core processors? Example tegra, Orion,nvida etc.
Sent from my Evo Killer!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Orion! I mean hummingbird is te best single core...so why would samsung pass the crown? Lol but nah the tegra is probably gonna be the worst since its the first, but just because its the worst does not mean its bad at all lol
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Dungeon Defender on the Optimus 2X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C4TtJ4--i8
musclehead84 said:
What in your opinion is going to be the best dual core processors? Example tegra, Orion,nvida etc.
Sent from my Evo Killer!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hard to say really...there really is no benchmarks or live phones to tell..
The Tegra 2 seems to support more new specs/features on their GPU...the Orion will be bundled with the MALI-400 and the snapdragon has its Adreno which seems to be promising performance on par with our current Hummignbird but will have a 1.2ghz dual core which might help it in cpu (Though Tegra 2.5 will come this year too with 1.2ghz), the OMAP chose the SGX540 which is hard to say how they will utilize it..
See its kinda a mixed bag...as we don't have any phones to try out..
IF I were to guess out of all the Dual cores this year..the best performance would either be the Tegra 2.5 or the Orion..:/
xjman said:
I'm sure soon the quadcore in the new ngp psp is going in a phone.
I just doubt seriously that it makes much of a difference at all as android at this point is not capable of running multiple threads from my understanding. The Nvidia GPU in the tegra 2 phones is pretty much on the same performance level as ours so thats not even a factor.
The rumor mill has GB offering up true multi core support on the phone, we will see how that goes, because the rumor mill had froyo supporting it too.
Multi core CPU's are awesome if you are endlessly running multiple cpu intensive tasks, on your phone I doubt you will be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Multi-core support comes with Honeycomb :/..but yeh the 4 core CPU and a SGX543MP4+ does look rather sweet on that PSP..
I could write a monster post here, since comparing SoC architecture is a hobby of mine.
But, I'm tired, so I'm just going to drop links and say a few words.
http://briefmobile.com/lg-optimus-2x-benchmarked-defies-special-relativity
http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_90715.html
Obviously NVIDIA's stuff has to be taken with a grain of salt (it has a certain amount of marketing spin thrown in) but thus far has been fairly accurate when compared to actual performance numbers.
Samsung is using Tegra 2 (we've caught them accepting orders for large numbers of Tegra 2 processors) so Orion is either still in the works or has been placed on the backburner. TI is prepping their OMAP 4400, which hopefully will feature some tweaks (not something TI is known for however) to keep it competitive with the fairly hard-copy Tegra 2 ARM Cortex-A9.
And let's not forget Qualcomm. They may not be technically using Cortex-A9, but with their license to customize the ARM instruction set and CPU architecture as they see fit (something that NVIDIA, Samsung, and TI haven't paid to do), they have the ability to modify their SoCs to remain competitive, no matter what the other guys do. Their only major drawback is the time and money they need to spend on R&D.
Alright, I didn't want to write a book so I'm going to stop myself here. If you want to see me rattle on for pages about this stuff, read this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=907182
Mighty442 said:
Dungeon Defender on the Optimus 2X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C4TtJ4--i8
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Runs exactly the same as it does on my epic, I'm not sure the point with that?
gTen we will see if its there when its released. Until then all those dual cores don't do much.
Yep so I just found out that the atrix has an 8 core GPU thanks to the forum members below.
This seems amazing considering the SGSII has a quad core GPU
Check this out:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra-2.html
bigdog_nick said:
Check this out:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra-2.html
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Click to collapse
OMG 8 cores?
So it is better than the SGS2
8 core GPU
Seems like so. From what i'm reading just now, the SGSII has a Mali-400MP4 which is only a quad core. Wow, Nvidia you outdid yourself. lol
Why dont they advertise the 8 core GPU?
RacecarBMW said:
Why dont they advertise the 8 core GPU?
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Click to collapse
probably cause not many people know or even care what it is and moto and att didnt see it as a selling point
Dang, and to think I was always of the opinion that the Galaxy S phones had more GPU power than my Atrix.. Damn you AT&T.
not surprised as it's a geforce core
brian2220 said:
probably cause not many people know or even care what it is and moto and att didnt see it as a selling point
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Click to collapse
well they advertise the dual core CPU
Says it supports 12mp primary camera?
The next tegra is a quad core cpu, 12 core gpu. Its going to be a monster.
RacecarBMW said:
well they advertise the dual core CPU
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Click to collapse
that is always a big selling point in todays market
RacecarBMW said:
OMG 8 cores?
So it is better than the SGS2
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Click to collapse
Holy Moly. 8 core GPU?
And the SGSII only has 4 core GPU?
The Atrix wins overall. No question about it.
[/s]
Extra cores do not necessarily translate to win. Tegra is awesome, but has its limits, which are far more apparent than in the new Galaxy 2, which appears to be the most powerful Android phone to date.
YAY! 8 CORE GPU! what ever that means? lol
as far as i know. the SGS2 oxynes or whatever its called is more powerful than tegra 2.
not my much tho.
however Nvidia has an advantage of Tegra zone. games specific to take advantages of the Tegra 2.
and that alone is way better than playing the same game the nexus S plays well only smoother.
this makes Tegra 2 a better GPU imho hands down. but not the most powerful.
jivemaster said:
Extra cores do not necessarily translate to win. Tegra is awesome, but has its limits, which are far more apparent than in the new Galaxy 2, which appears to be the most powerful Android phone to date.
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Click to collapse
What drugs are you on? SGS II? The most powerful to date? No ways Laydee
The Atrix hasn't even shown its true colours yet. Wait till Gingerbread is released. This will be the REAL test.
Only then will it be clear whether Atrix or SGS II is the better handset.
ll_l_x_l_ll said:
as far as i know. the SGS2 oxynes or whatever its called is more powerful than tegra 2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its called Exynos, and NO, the reports out there peg the Tegra 2 to be better clock for clock.
Why do you think Samsung overclocked the Exynos to 1.2Ghz? To be competitive, because at 1Ghz it wasn't.
Samsung has won the Quadrant war for the moment, but lets see what the Tegra 2 overclocked to 1.2Ghz (unlock that bootloader damit!) and with AOS 2.3.3 can do. And the hardware war can't be won on just a SAMOLED+ screen thats still can't be viewed in direct sunlight, and is heavily pixelated at 4.3" & 800x480 resolution (I certainly prefer qHD).
The Geforce ULV GPU in the Tegra 2 SoC is based on the Nvidia Geforce 6 series GPU architecture from 2004.
Computer GPU's at the time where still using "pipelines" before introduction of "unified shaders" (those are easier to be called multi-core) with the release of the nvidia G80 GPU in late 2006.
Piplines architecture has dedicated instructions shaders (nvidia like to call them cores for marketing reasons and to piss off Intel!) for each of pixel and vertex processing tasks. A GPU of this kind can't help itself if the load was heavier at one side of those tasks.
Where in "unified shaders" architecture those shaders can morph to handle any instructions tasks based on the load.
So it's more correctly to say the nvidia GPU in the Atrix has 8 shaders, But and it's a big BUT.. 4 of them must be preserved for the pixel processing and the other 4 must be preserved for vertex processing.
Which processow will be better, Exynos 5 Octa or A simple Snapdragon 600 quad?
In my POV, Octa will be useless since it will be a battery hog and no apps really use that much cores and power. The S600 will be more efficient for day-to-day use since it consumes less power and will actually be used.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Sent from a dark and unknown place
Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 P3100
I thought the s4 had the same processor as the One, but it was clocked to 1.9? I could be wrong. I wasn't really paying attention.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
I'd imagine this thread will get closed.
In the meantime, read this thread and then make a judgement because the "it uses more power so it sucks" mentality is just simply incorrect.
[Info] Exynos Octa and why you need to stop the drama about the 8 cores
AndreiLux said:
Misconception #1: Samsung didn't design this, ARM did. This is not some stupid marketing gimmick.
Misconception #2: You DON'T need to have all 8 cores online, actually, only maximum 4 cores will ever be online at the same time.
Misconception #3: If the workload is thread-light, just as we did hot-plugging on previous CPUs, big.LITTLE pairs will simply remain offline under such light loads. There is no wasted power with power-gating.
Misconception #4: As mentioned, each pair can switch independently of other pairs. It's not he whole cluster who switches between A15 and A7 cores. You can have only a single A15 online, together with two A7's, while the fourth pair is completely offline.
Misconception #5: The two clusters have their own frequency planes. This means A15 cores all run on one frequency while the A7 cores can be running on another. However, inside of the frequency planes, all cores run at the same frequency, meaning there is only one frequency for all cores of a type at a time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Addition: I am not a Samsung fanboy by any means, however, the amount of incorrect information floating around about both of these flagships is starting to get annoying.
2nd addition: Read this as well, the big.LITTLE technology being used in the Octa is pretty amazing: big.LITTLE Processing
I hope that the overclocking or higher clock rate doesn't produce Moment-esque results.
Alsybub said:
I thought the s4 had the same processor as the One, but it was clocked to 1.9? I could be wrong. I wasn't really paying attention.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
In the US that is true, they are both S600's, with the S4 having a .2ghz higher clockspeed. Many of the other S4's will have the Octa Exynos chip.
crawlgsx said:
In the US that is true, they are both S600's, with the S4 having a .2ghz higher clockspeed. Many of the other S4's will have the Octa Exynos chip.
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Click to collapse
Ah. I see. Different hardware for different regions. Like the One X.
Even though it's eight cores it is probably complete overkill. Yet another bigger number to put on marketing. How many apps will actually use that? How many apps use four cores at the moment?
There have been some articles about multiple cores being more for point of sale than for the end user. Even if you're signing up for a contract right now I doubt that much would be making use of it in two years time. So, the future proofing argument is moot.
It'll be interesting to see. Of course the galaxy builds of Android will use the cores. With things like the stay awake feature and pip it is useful. Outside of the OS I can't see it being necessary.
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk HD
The "octa" core processor is complete bullsh*t. Imo, 2/4 cores are perfectly fine as long as they optimize it and perfect the hardware, why stack 8 cores when only 4 work at one time and no app will use all that power.
They should've focused on design to make it look less like a toy phone and use better finish, instead.
Oh the marketing..
Not HTC or whatever fanboy, just stating my opinion.
rotchcrocket04 said:
I'd imagine this thread will get closed.
In the meantime, read this thread and then make a judgement because the "it uses more power so it sucks" mentality is just simply incorrect.
[Info] Exynos Octa and why you need to stop the drama about the 8 cores
Addition: I am not a Samsung fanboy by any means, however, the amount of incorrect information floating around about both of these flagships is starting to get annoying.
2nd addition: Read this as well, the big.LITTLE technology being used in the Octa is pretty amazing: big.LITTLE Processing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very good read, thanks for taking the time to post it. Surprised no-one has mentioned that we need this in our Ones. Would certainly help with the battery.
Saying its a 8 core cpu is marketing simply put.
Like it has been said only 4 out of 8 cores will only ever be enabled at once max.
The GPU on the Octa might be better then the Adreno 320 but its have to wait for benchmarks.
Nekromantik said:
Saying its a 8 core cpu is marketing simply put.
Like it has been said only 4 out of 8 cores will only ever be enabled at once max.
The GPU on the Octa might be better then the Adreno 320 but its have to wait for benchmarks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Benchmarks show adreno320 keeps up nicely. You won't see any real world differences besides a slightly lower benchmark score
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2191834
Sent from my ADR6425LVW using xda app-developers app
Squirrel1620 said:
Benchmarks show adreno320 keeps up nicely. You won't see any real world differences besides a slightly lower benchmark score
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2191834
Sent from my ADR6425LVW using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Those are from the S600 version.
Higher clock speed and Android 4.2 will mean its slightly ahead.
No benchmarks from the Octa version yet.
Nekromantik said:
Those are from the S600 version.
Higher clock speed and Android 4.2 will mean its slightly ahead.
No benchmarks from the Octa version yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll just stick with the one and wait for the 4.2 update. By then we should have custom kernels to overclock ourselves
Sent from my ADR6425LVW using xda app-developers app
Here you go
Nekromantik said:
Saying its a 8 core cpu is marketing simply put.
Like it has been said only 4 out of 8 cores will only ever be enabled at once max.
The GPU on the Octa might be better then the Adreno 320 but its have to wait for benchmarks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"Octa" is not gimmicky or for marketing.
Octa is the name of the SoC, and how it was named is nothing wrong
There are 3 implementations can be used, and one with maximum 8 cores running at the same time.
GS4 doesn't use that impletations, but it does not mean the SoC cannot be "Octa". You have a house with 8 rooms but you know to open or you wanna open 4 rooms only, the house is still an 8-room house.
hung2900 said:
"Octa" is not gimmicky or for marketing.
Octa is the name of the SoC, and how it was named is nothing wrong
There are 3 implementations can be used, and one with maximum 8 cores running at the same time.
GS4 doesn't use that impletations, but it does not mean the SoC cannot be "Octa". You have a house with 8 rooms but you know to open or you wanna open 4 rooms only, the house is still an 8-room house.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How do you know all 8 can run at the same time? Has Samsung demonstrated that already? Any links?
Also what would be the speed if all 8 are running at the same time?
Also did you see that an Intel dual core @2GHz beat the Exynos Octa in benchmarks!!! So all 8 cores running at slower speed might not be very good actually. It might even slow down things even more...
We recently demonstrated a dual core running at 3GHz at MWC in Barcelona. That chip was able to load games at crazy speeds. A game that took 15s to load on existing Exynos Quad core was loading in just 6s with our chip!
joslicx said:
We recently demonstrated a dual core running at 3GHz at MWC in Barcelona. That chip was able to load games at crazy speeds. A game that took 15s to load on existing Exynos Quad core was loading in just 6s with our chip!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
. And used 3 times the energy to do it... Was that tested at all?
backfromthestorm said:
. And used 3 times the energy to do it... Was that tested at all?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its all about bragging rights really. Same as Samsung is doing with regards to Octa.
The the chip that could run at 3GHz could also very well run at 1GHz at just 0.6V (so consuming far lesser power than anything else in the market). A dual core at 1GHz is still good enough for all mundane tasks like playing videos or internet browsing etc. So in practice it would have been a very efficient solution. It was a real innovation really. Sadly the company did not have money to pour more funds into the program and has shut it.
It was demonstrated at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona in february this year.
Anyway point is, we did not need extra set of power efficient cores like Samsung is doing. We ran the same cores that could do crazy high speeds and even crazier power efficient mode! Thats a very neat solution.
Heres a press link: http://www.itproportal.com/2013/02/25/mwc-2013-exclusive-dual-core-st-ericsson-novathor-l8580-soc-crushes-competition-benchmarks/
To quote the article:
A continuous running test monitored by an infra-red reader showed that the 3GHz prototype smartphone remained cooler as it uses less energy and in some scenarios, it could add up to five hours battery life in a normal usage scenario
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hung2900 said:
"Octa" is not gimmicky or for marketing.
Octa is the name of the SoC, and how it was named is nothing wrong
There are 3 implementations can be used, and one with maximum 8 cores running at the same time.
GS4 doesn't use that impletations, but it does not mean the SoC cannot be "Octa". You have a house with 8 rooms but you know to open or you wanna open 4 rooms only, the house is still an 8-room house.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, no. At least not in my opinion. Octacore means 8 cpu cores on one cpu-chip.
I would see it like this:
You have 2 houses on your lawn which are beside each other. Every house has 4 rooms. You have to switch houses to open up the rooms. Just like the Exynos "Octa" has to, since it cannot run both CPU's at the same time.
If you are in a house with 8 rooms, you cannot simply be in all 8 rooms at once. You can connect the open doors between all the rooms, and since your in that house, you can freely walk in every room. But not with that implementation.
I wouldn't call the Exynos "Octa" an Octacore, its a dual CPU system with a 2x4 cores, with the difference that regular desktop dual CPU systems can use both CPU units at once, but not like the Exynos "Octa". Still, dual quad system comes closer than a pure octacore system.
This is kind of a hybrid. Nice technology for a mobile device, but at the same time, kind of unneeded / inefficient, compared to regular quadcore systems. Even the Tegra 3 system with 4 active cores and 1 companion core for standby tasks seems more efficient (in terms of "used space" and ressources).
Ah well let's see how the supposed and so called "octacore" will score in the future...
processor differences
okay I know both processor are snapdragon 600's but why is the galaxy S4's processor clocked at 1.9 ghz and the HTC One's processor is clocked at 1.7 ghz is it just an instance of samsung overclocking the s600 or are they different variations of the same processor, I have done some research and am able to find no clear answer to this question even on the snapdragon website????????
dawg00201 said:
okay I know both processor are snapdragon 600's but why is the galaxy S4's processor clocked at 1.9 ghz and the HTC One's processor is clocked at 1.7 ghz is it just an instance of samsung overclocking the s600 or are they different variations of the same processor, I have done some research and am able to find no clear answer to this question even on the snapdragon website????????
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Click to collapse
They should be identical. I think its just a manufacturer choice. But it could also be associated to termals or battery.
Cause Samsung took the higher frequency chips, there is the possibility that they also get the "better" chips: Lower Voltage for the same frequency. But thats just an assumption.