Related
He makes some good points.
Android Is As Open As The Clenched Fist I’d Like To Punch The Carriers With
MG Siegler
Sep 9, 2010
This past weekend, I wrote a post wondering if Android was surging in the U.S. market because Apple was letting it? The main thought was that by remaining exclusively tied to AT&T, Apple was driving some users to choose Android, which is available on all the U.S. carriers. In the post, I posed a question: if it’s not the iPhone/AT&T deal, why do you choose Android? Nearly 1,000 people responded, and a large percentage focused on the same idea: the idea of “openness.”
You’ll forgive me, but I have to say it: what a load of crap.
In theory, I’m right there with you. The thought of a truly open mobile operating system is very appealing. The problem is that in practice, that’s just simply not the reality of the situation. Maybe if Google had their way, the system would be truly open. But they don’t. Sadly, they have to deal with a very big roadblock: the carriers.
The result of this unfortunate situation is that the so-called open system is quickly revealing itself to be anything but. Further, we’re starting to see that in some cases the carriers may actually be able to exploit this “openness” to create a closed system that may leave you crying for Apple’s closed system — at least theirs looks good and behaves as expected.
Case in point: the last couple of Android phones I’ve gotten as demo units from Google: the EVO 4G and the Droid 2, have been loaded up with crapware installed by the carriers (Sprint and Verizon, respectively). Apple would never let this fly on the iPhone, but the openness of Android means Google has basically no say in the matter. Consumers will get the crapware and they’ll like it. Not only that, plenty of this junk can’t even be uninstalled. How’s that for “open”?
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Earlier this year, Verizon rolled out its own V Cast app store on some BlackBerry devices. This occurred despite that fact that BlackBerry devices have their own app store (App World). From what we’re hearing, Verizon is also planning to launch this store on their Android phones as well in the future. Obviously, this store would be pre-installed, and it would likely be more prominently displayed than Android’s own Market for apps.
Does V Cast have some good content? Probably. But most of it is undoubtedly crap that Verizon is trying to sell you for a high fee. But who cares whether it’s great or it’s crap — isn’t the point of “open” supposed to be that the consumer can choose what they want on their own devices? Instead, open is proving to mean that the carriers can choose what they want to do with Android.
It’s too bad, but there is now a very real risk that the carriers are going to exploit the open system Google set up in order to create a new version of the bull**** proprietary ecosystems that they had before the iPhone came along and turned the market on its side.
And it’s not just Verizon, it’s all the carriers. One of the great features of Android is that you can install apps without going through an app store, right? Well, not if you have an a Motorola Backflip or a HTC Aria running on AT&T — they’ve locked this feature down. How? Thanks to the open Android OS.
Oh, and how about tethering? It’s one of the truly great features of Android 2.2, right? Well, not if you have a carrier that doesn’t want to support it. Google has to defer to them to enable their own native OS feature. It’s such an awesome feature — in the hands of Google. Once the carriers get their hands on it — not so much.
Speaking of Android 2.2, you know it’s out there right? You’ll be forgiven if you don’t because a whopping 4.5 percent of you Android users are currently running it, according to Google’s dashboard. And again, that’s not Google’s fault, that’s all the carriers. Incredibly, over 35 percent of you still aren’t even running any version of Android 2.x. It’s pathetic.
Apple gets crap for not supporting phones that are three years old with OS updates — the open Android system can’t even upgrade phones that are only a few months old in some cases — again, all thanks to the carriers.
The excuses for why this is run rampant. They need to tweak their custom skins, they need to test the new software, etc. It’s all a bunch of garbage. This is an open platform and yet you’re more restricted than on Apple’s supposedly closed one.
What happens when Verizon won’t update your phone to the latest greatest Android software — not because they can’t, but because they want you to upgrade to a new piece of hardware and sign the new two-year agreement that comes along with it? The game remains the same.
My point is not to bash Google — what they’ve created is an excellent mobile operating system. My point is that the same “openness” that Android users are touting as a key selling point of the OS could very well end up being its weak point. If you don’t think Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, and Sprint are going to try to commandeer the OS in an attempt to return to their glory days where we were all slaves to their towers, you’re being naive.
“Open” is great until you have to define it or defend it. I’m not sure Google can continue to do either in this situation.
And before all of you pros storm the comments with how great it is to root your Android phones, consider the average consumers here. They are the ones being screwed by this exploitation of “open.” Anyone with the desire to do so can fairly easily hack an iPhone too. Open is not a reason to choose Android + carrier vs. iPhone + AT&T.
Update: Oh, and one more great example Michael Prassel reminded me of in the comments — do you want Skype on your Android phone? Well, I hope you have Verizon because otherwise you won’t be able to install it. “Open.” We’re only going to see more of this, not less.
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MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
Paul22000 said:
MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
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Even if he is an iphone lover, this particular post has some validity. The carriers really are screwing android over. My brother recently bought a Droid X with verizon and asked me to help him root cause he has absolutely no clue on how to do it. He wanted tethering because verizon, like ATnT is charging extra if you want to use tethering natively. So I went a head and root his phone and the phone is nice by all means, but V-Cast was an annoying piece of sh*t that pops up NO MATTER what when you connect your phone to your PC. For users like you and I who do know how to root and reap the benefits then its no problem because we can just ADB remove everything we dont like. But what about for people like my brother? They are stuck with ****ware and functionality like tethering that SHOULD be basic and free, but are forced to pay for if they want to use it. My 2cents, go figure.
Paul22000 said:
MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
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That might be true (I haven't read his other pieces), but he's spot-on here. The fact that many (MANY) Android phones don't have any planned upgrade paths to Android 2.2 (some are still running Android 1.6!) simply because the carriers or phone manufacturers say so is quite telling. On the other hand, someone with an original iPhone, which is just turning three years old, can update their OS to 4.0 and enjoy at least some of the new features the platform has to offer.
At its core, Android is quite open. I can download the source for Android 2.2 right now, build it and run it on any ARM-compatible device without repercussion. Not so for iPhone OS. However, the experience that users actually care about is practically indifferent from its competitor and theoretically worse because carriers have much more sway in controlling it than AT&T (or any other carrier that receives it) does on the iPhone. (Verizon's future app store is a case-in-point example, especially if it "replaces" Android market on the devices that will be getting it.)
Zephyron said:
But what about for people like my brother? They are stuck with ****ware and functionality like tethering that SHOULD be basic and free, but are forced to pay for if they want to use it. My 2cents, go figure.
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Everybody has got to start somehwere.
typ_ex said:
Everybody has got to start somehwere.
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That is also true, my brother was just being a lazy ass
This is one of the reasons why carriers love Android.
Yes, it's as open as it can get.
Yes, its openness is exploited by carriers, forcing devices to be lacking functionality / installing bloatware / etc.
These things don't contradict each other.
For a "stupid" end user, there isn't much choice - not all carriers offer vanilla Android devices. On the other hand, the same goes for iPhone - whatever you got there, you got there, whatever apps are supplied by the carrier - you get, if the carrier allows you to tether - it'll make sure you pay for it, and you'll be damn sure you can't install anything unofficial.
For a bit more advanced user, openness is great - once protections are bypassed (and they're bypassed on every device), ROM developers can turn those phones into whatever they want, and since the core of the system is open, you get all the services this core offers you, and carriers can't do a thing.
Not any different from the iPhone that the writer keeps comparing to.
The points are good and true as long as they're taken away from the context of that crappy and intentionally twisted article.
Siegler and arrington are horrible writers, I feel for the other writers at techcrunch because most of the others are good. But any article by those two I take as nothing more then trolling for ad hits, even if somewhere in their crap writing is a few valid points.
If they aren't paid directly by apple they have definite stock interest.
He asks 1000 presumably non-average readers of TechCrunch why THEY chose Android and when they say "openness" he's no longer interested and wants to "consider the average consumer". Who knows what they think dude, they've been buying iPhones, go sit outside a strip mall and ask them? He is essentially arguing with himself here
I'm pretty sure all the people who realize bloatware sucks have the knowledge to do some simple Google searches on how to use ADB.
Just sayin'...
AT&T doesn't put bloatware onto their iPhone's because it's ONLY on AT&T, that in itself is a crime. I guarantee once iPhone is available on other carriers it will have some sort of crap on it... and it won't be removable at all.
You don't even have to root your Android phone to remove crap
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Really? Well I take back what I said then.
Even though it SHOULDN'T be this way at all. Carriers can do what the hell they want. At least I have a choice between many phones other than just one.
Meh, maybe Gingerbread will change things. I don't think bloatware deteriorates the OS as a whole.. I just think it shouldn't be there... and it's very easy to remove anyway.
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Yeah, too bad our botched american system of using cell carriers isnt more similar to the way the rest of the world does it. Then everyone would be happi...(er)
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Do the android phones have carrier bloat in them or are they as vanilla as the iphones?
Blueman101 said:
Yeah, too bad our botched american system of using cell carriers isnt more similar to the way the rest of the world does it. Then everyone would be happi...(er)
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Free enterprise system at its finest!
EDIT: Not sayin' everyone else is commie....
Before getting a Nexus One, i made sure i researched what android OS is and even bought a used MT3G to root the hell out of it, unroot it, flash radios do all sorts of crap to it and learn as much as i want and now i can say i am pretty confident and things have gotten easier than before.
To get an android phone for my wife i have to wait 2-3 months after a phone is released to see how much support it gets from the community that is how sad android has turned into, the nexus one is great because is open, however i will not expect samsung, lg or any carrier having the intentions on supporting old phones because they don't make money.
If carriers keep butchering android people may start looking the other way.
SiNJiN76 said:
Do the android phones have carrier bloat in them or are they as vanilla as the iphones?
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Android phones get bloatware/branding
O2 still haven't released 2.2 for the Desire over here, and Vodafone were in the middle of a huge ****storm when they released a branding OTA update when everyone was expecting Froyo.
Buying your own SIM free phone is the way forward.
greenstuffs said:
To get an android phone for my wife i have to wait 2-3 months after a phone is released to see how much support it gets from the community that is how sad android has turned into,
If carriers keep butchering android people may start looking the other way.
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Totally agree.
I would even argue that Android is worse, because you need to root in order to get the most out of it. That's the same as jailbreaking the iPhone (and at least you know that the hacking community for the iphone is going to be huge)
not necessarily, android(non-rooted) lets you do so much more then a jalbroken iphone.
I will give the author credit for calling out Android's "openness", much like the recent net neutrality things going around, the word "open" is an absolute, something that Android is very close to but still isn't 100%. But still a hell of a lot more open the Apples Draconian Totalitarianism system of ruling its users.
What bugs me about this author is his constant smear campaign about android. I can understand not liking something but really?! This guy writes article after article holding Apple in the light and scorning Android for something, then what happens, all the Apple fans ***** and moan about this feature that Android has had for months if not years, then Apple takes that idea calls it revolutionary, markets the hell out of it, then this author writes an article about how Apple is even better with this new feature that he just condemned on the Android platform.
Android is open. Open does not mean it is easy for users to modify nor does it mean that products made over Android has to be open. Anyone can download the source and do what they will with android. Cyanogenmod is an example of a group of users doing what they want with AOSP. Similarly a phone manufacturer or wireless carrier can do whatever they want with it. What people seem to misunderstand is that the manufacturer and carrier are under no obligation to make it easy (or even possible) to modify the android install on a device or use the modifications they create.
This choice was on purpose. If Google went with GPL (forcing the carriers to open their modifications) it would not have been taken up by the carriers. You can argue if this is reasonable but the fact remains the conservative carriers would not take up a GPLd OS at this time. This does not mean the OS is not open, it simply means that the product that is created by a carrier is not in the control of the user.
Or does it seem like Honeycomb was rushed out. I get a lot of force closes on my browser and other apps that were installed when I get my Xoom. Does anyone else get that?
Nope, it's just you, nobody has never made a thread like this ever in this forum.
Next time put something real in the title.
Google is going to f***ing dissenchant me with all their little f***ing two sided antics. OK I get it, blah blah open f***ing source etc. But you can't have it both ways. You want to make a liberal system that can be taken advantage of freely by developers and promote creativity and freedom, great. But you do half the work and allow the cyanogenmod team to smooth out the rest of the quarks and make your OS closer to an expected consumer user experience, voiding peoples warranty in the process. Even at this point, OK. BUT YOU CAN'T F***ING HAVE THE HARDWARE MANUFACTURERS AND CARRIERS PARADING AROUND LIKE ITS OK TO MILK A HALF BAKED OS BY SUCKING PEOPLE DRY WITH INSANE UNJUSTIFIABLE PRICES, ESPECIALLY WHEN NOT EVEN ONE CENT OF ANY OF THE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT COMES OUT OF THEIR POCKET.
Google needs to put the f***ing squeeze on these a*****es or realize that they are full of s***.
IndivisibleP said:
Language in quote cleaned.
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Lolololol its a breath of fresh air seeing someone comment with this much emotion
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App
IndivisibleP said:
Google is going to f***ing dissenchant me with all their little f***ing two sided antics. OK I get it, blah blah open f***ing source etc. But you can't have it both ways. You want to make a liberal system that can be taken advantage of freely by developers and promote creativity and freedom, great. But you do half the work and allow the cyanogenmod team to smooth out the rest of the quarks and make your OS closer to an expected consumer user experience, voiding peoples warranty in the process. Even at this point, OK. BUT YOU CAN'T F***ING HAVE THE HARDWARE MANUFACTURERS AND CARRIERS PARADING AROUND LIKE ITS OK TO MILK A HALF BAKED OS BY SUCKING PEOPLE DRY WITH INSANE UNJUSTIFIABLE PRICES, ESPECIALLY WHEN NOT EVEN ONE CENT OF ANY OF THE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT COMES OUT OF THEIR POCKET.
Google needs to put the f***ing squeeze on these a*****es or realize that they are full of s***.
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and THE OP
Nobody forced you to buy anything. Is honeycomb perfect? no we already know this. 2.2 or 2.3 is not perfect so not sure what you expected. We got earthquakes, tsunamis, and civil wars going on and you are worried about some force closes. You dont like it dont buy it. You should feel lucky you even have the choice to buy a Xoom. Quit your *****in.
IndivisibleP said:
INSANE UNJUSTIFIABLE PRICES
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Sounds like you can't really afford the Xoom. Maybe you should just take it back and get a refund. Yes, I think that's the best course for everyone involved.
DroidzFX said:
and THE OP
Nobody forced you to buy anything. Is honeycomb perfect? no we already know this. 2.2 or 2.3 is not perfect so not sure what you expected. We got earthquakes, tsunamis, and civil wars going on and you are worried about some force closes. You dont like it dont buy it. You should feel lucky you even have the choice to buy a Xoom. Quit your *****in.
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I wasn't "*****in" as you like to put it I was merely asking a question as to whether this was a common thing or if mine was just having problems and maybe I should reload it or something to fix it. If you can't say anything constructive maybe you should avoid using that 1st amendment right of yours.
matdev said:
I wasn't "*****in" as you like to put it I was merely asking a question as to whether this was a common thing or if mine was just having problems and maybe I should reload it or something to fix it. If you can't say anything constructive maybe you should avoid using that 1st amendment right of yours.
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Maybe you should do some research because this question has been asked several times. If the same question or statement is mentioned over and over then it becomes classified as *****in. Unfortunately you fell into this category.
I think the price is fair...and Moto does have software dev time in it - Kernel time at a minimum. I'm fully aware Google was involved in the design process of the device, but I doubt other than a ton of OEM support to Moto that they actually have a ton of resources invested in the device it self.
I guess no one has looked in to purchasing a 32Gb SSD - those alone are $100.
10" screen ~$100 for just a screen without any touch digitizer
So 200 bucks in cost in 2 pieces of hardware.
One of the problems with the Android community as a whole is everyone whining about price. The price of hardware, the price of apps. The Apple drones could care less about price, they'll pay what they are asked to pay regardless of any other thought than "It's white, it has fruit on it" . I however am a fairly informed consumer and am WILLING to pay for latest and greatest as long as it serves my needs.
However, the lack of HC Source has made me reconsider the purchase....
Kcarpenter said:
I think the price is fair...and Moto does have software dev time in it - Kernel time at a minimum. I'm fully aware Google was involved in the design process of the device, but I doubt other than a ton of OEM support to Moto that they actually have a ton of resources invested in the device it self.
I guess no one has looked in to purchasing a 32Gb SSD - those alone are $100.
10" screen ~$100 for just a screen without any touch digitizer
So 200 bucks in cost in 2 pieces of hardware.
One of the problems with the Android community as a whole is everyone whining about price. The price of hardware, the price of apps. The Apple drones could care less about price, they'll pay what they are asked to pay regardless of any other thought than "It's white, it has fruit on it" . I however am a fairly informed consumer and am WILLING to pay for latest and greatest as long as it serves my needs.
However, the lack of HC Source has made me reconsider the purchase....
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You have to think though, that by not releasing the source.. they are doing their best to avoid some of the issues spoken about previously. Too often manufacturers would like to prey on the uneducated or the early adopters by throwing a half developed piece of hardware out the door, slapping the google android sticker on it.. and then while they profit, they take the good name of Google/Android and drag it through the mud.
Look at the reaction to the original Samsung Galaxy Tab. It was thrown out, with an OS that was not made for a tablet, on hardware not optimized for the design... only to capitalize on the fact that they would be the first out the gate (or at least one of the first). Apple did the same thing, and took their phone OS and blew it up to a larger format. The only reason they succeeded was that they had their system locked down and could ensure that they had a good hardware/software mix. The throngs of iFags everywhere gobble it up because they knew it would be solid enough to satisfy them for a year till the next one comes out and improves on it.
Google is finally learning from Apple in that respect.
By not releasing the sc for HC, they are making sure that they can correct the early issues found with HC in the Xoom, as well as ensure the hardware its installed on meets specific requirements as to not damage their name or their products name. Its not that it wont let it out eventually, but they want to make it as solid as possible before they do. I respect them for that, even if it makes the modding community's job a bit harder in the interim.
Lastly... you can blame the marketing techniques for shady products. Simple people are too excited by shiny products with big words in their advertising, that they get burned by not researching... and those that get burned, cry the most. Those that do their due diligence and research, only blame themselves when they get burned because they overlooked a mistake or failed to prioritize features.
matdev said:
Or does it seem like Honeycomb was rushed out. I get a lot of force closes on my browser and other apps that were installed when I get my Xoom. Does anyone else get that?
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Can you give us some more details? Like, did you root your xoom or are you experiencing all of these force closes on a clean xoom that you just got 2 days ago? Did you throw an image on there, sideload a bunch of apps, etc....
Off Topic...
Many people do not understand when they try to compare the Xoom to a polished product like the iPad that the iPad OS has been around for a while before the iPad even came to market (iTouch, iPhone) and developers had already enough time to work with iOS so when the iPad was released there was not that much difference besides the new screen real estate that they had to adjust their apps for. When the iPad first came out there were some bugs, apps had that BS 2x until they were optimized for the iPad, etc...The Xoom is a brand new product that is sporting new hardware and a brand new OS that developers have not had the opportunity to work on until just recently so if "you" are not an early adopter then please buy an iPad. And if you are going to complain about the price of the Xoom compared to an iPad 2 then please explain how many 16GB WiFi only models are selling for the same price right now as a Xoom.
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses. I been a linux user since 92 and even I get overwhelmed sometimes with the amounts of distros out there. Got it that is what open source is about however. that same premises is what hinders its progress. Andoid is too fragmented with companies rushing out devices to the market without been ready, unfortunately the so call "early adopters" do everyone else a deservice by rushing to buy such devices, to compund this, companies are quick to abandon support for devices after a couple of months leaving us at the mercy of freelance developers (which by the way are great)
Yes the xoom and hc were rushed out to the market on an effort to get a headstart on other devices, by now it has been proven that it did now work as expected for them
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
neonflx said:
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
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What? You realize android is the most used smartphone platform worldwide right (ignoring sybian)? If that isn't market penetration I don't know what is.
The API differences from 1.6-2.3 are so minor that application compatibility is really a non issue between operating systems. The only issue is hardware differences really.
Ask the average Joe user what version of android or IOS they are using and they'll ask you "what?". Only the power users ***** and moan about these relatively minor OS updates because they always want the latest thing.
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neonflx said:
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses. I been a linux user since 92 and even I get overwhelmed sometimes with the amounts of distros out there. Got it that is what open source is about however. that same premises is what hinders its progress. Andoid is too fragmented with companies rushing out devices to the market without been ready, unfortunately the so call "early adopters" do everyone else a deservice by rushing to buy such devices, to compund this, companies are quick to abandon support for devices after a couple of months leaving us at the mercy of freelance developers (which by the way are great)
Yes the xoom and hc were rushed out to the market on an effort to get a headstart on other devices, by now it has been proven that it did now work as expected for them
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
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Are you rooting for Android to fail? You know they do have Windows based phones if you don't like android ones. No one is forcing you to buy anything android. This is not a hate forum so unless you actually own a xoom and have a general question/statement regarding the xoom/honeycomb then why not just go find a "I hate android/linux/capitalism" forum.
neonflx said:
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses. I been a linux user since 92 and even I get overwhelmed sometimes with the amounts of distros out there. Got it that is what open source is about however. that same premises is what hinders its progress. Andoid is too fragmented with companies rushing out devices to the market without been ready, unfortunately the so call "early adopters" do everyone else a deservice by rushing to buy such devices, to compund this, companies are quick to abandon support for devices after a couple of months leaving us at the mercy of freelance developers (which by the way are great)
Yes the xoom and hc were rushed out to the market on an effort to get a headstart on other devices, by now it has been proven that it did now work as expected for them
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
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Really? You must have been on a deserted island for the last couple years. My Xoom running Honeycomb works just fine. Someone needs to start a thread titled ***** here so you guys can get together share what type of tampons you prefer.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R2LLDLIHDUBV84/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R2LLDLIHDUBV84
Let's spread this around and vote it up!!
This is truly an unbiased reviews. It shows the XOOM the way it is, warts and all (not that there are very many warts).
Spot on review.
This is very good review I have no regrets for buying my zoom
Sent from my Xoom using XDA App
c1808us said:
This is very good review I have no regrets for buying my zoom
Sent from my Xoom using XDA App
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Is your 'zoom' better than my xoom?
The review might be unbiased, but it speaks of a very bad no-no about Motorola products: the bugginess of Honeycomb. This is bad because Motorola doesn't support their non-carrier products with updates and bug fixes. This means when Google updates Honeycomb to fix bugs, Motorola will never use it on the Xoom. What you get when you buy the Xoom is all you will ever have.
I'm glad I read that review. I really like the Xoom I played with at a local Best Buy and was contemplating getting one over an iPad2. Now, however, I know Honeycomb isn't perfect. That isn't to say there's anything wrong with Google mobile OSes, they all are buggy in the beginning, but it is a serious issue for the future. I know I would not ever receive any updates from Motorola...and you can't just flash a direct Honeycomb ROM from Google...so I won't bother with it since HC needs work. I will wait for the Samsung Tablet.
Mod edit: Play nice.
Mod edit: Play nice.
Mod edit: Play nice.
Mod edit: Play nice.
Mod edit: Play nice.
Mod edit: Play nice.
Mod edit: Play nice. (No one cares who you add to your ignore list.)
Grow up.
This has to be the most immature thread I've ever had to suffer through reading. Everyone needs to stop flaming each other, or we will remove you from our community.
I'm not closing / deleting this thread (yet), because I believe the original post has a review that should be read. But don't for a minute think I won't take action against disrespectful users.
We're all adults here, right? I'm here to be your moderator, not your babysitter. Grow up.
MartyLK said:
The review might be unbiased, but it speaks of a very bad no-no about Motorola products: the bugginess of Honeycomb. This is bad because Motorola doesn't support their non-carrier products with updates and bug fixes. This means when Google updates Honeycomb to fix bugs, Motorola will never use it on the Xoom. What you get when you buy the Xoom is all you will ever have.
I'm glad I read that review. I really like the Xoom I played with at a local Best Buy and was contemplating getting one over an iPad2. Now, however, I know Honeycomb isn't perfect. That isn't to say there's anything wrong with Google mobile OSes, they all are buggy in the beginning, but it is a serious issue for the future. I know I would not ever receive any updates from Motorola...and you can't just flash a direct Honeycomb ROM from Google...so I won't bother with it since HC needs work. I will wait for the Samsung Tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the second thread I've seen you mention that Moto doesn't update non-carrier devices. Can you provide some reference here? I'm trying to understand how you think that the XOOM isn't going to get updates, especially since it has already received one and there are more on the way. The XOOM is a Google experience device and will get updates, and quicker than the Samsung products which will have to wait for TouchWiz to be pasted over top. After watching many Galaxy S users on carriers in the US wait for Froyo Samsung would be the last manufacturer I'd purchase from.
Back to the review, I also thought it was balanced. iOS is always very polished though it may lack some functionality and features. What it does do it typically does well. The iPad 2 is a device that my wife would appreciate very much and the XOOM is a device that I would prefer and will eventually pick up. I spent a number of years with Nokia Maemo tablets, waiting for Nokia and the community to fix issues and develop. I see a way better experience to come here than I did there.
this sounds like a similar review someone gave awhile ago - I'm still hoping my Xoom comes through next week...
also yes as mentioned - Motorola won't be updating the OS on Xoom - Google will be providing the updates - which is fine - it's one of the good reasons to buy one over the Samsung
great review really... I know the iPad 2 has pros over the XOOM but most pros are due to lack of user knowledge (like interface or apps...) so this is a spot-on review for people like us who know their mobile OS
I can't wait to get mine ... damn best buy canada... april 15th pre-order
Gorgonesh said:
T he XOOM is a Google experience device and will get updates, and quicker than the Samsung products which will have to wait for TouchWiz to be pasted over top. After watching many Galaxy S users on carriers in the US wait for Froyo Samsung would be the last manufacturer I'd purchase from.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems a lot of people over here on the Xoom boards are desperately trying to convince themselves that the Samsung tablets will be horribly undated devices. While I can see by their track records that this may most likely be the scenario, they do actually manage to properly update some of their devices. And it should not be that difficult at all to update 2 tablets with little carrier interaction.
Considering the fact that the Samsung tablets have a better screen and a more thinner profile, I would most likely get them over the Xoom regardless of Samsung's interaction.
Gorgonesh said:
This is the second thread I've seen you mention that Moto doesn't update non-carrier devices. Can you provide some reference here? I'm trying to understand how you think that the XOOM isn't going to get updates, especially since it has already received one and there are more on the way. The XOOM is a Google experience device and will get updates, and quicker than the Samsung products which will have to wait for TouchWiz to be pasted over top. After watching many Galaxy S users on carriers in the US wait for Froyo Samsung would be the last manufacturer I'd purchase from.
Back to the review, I also thought it was balanced. iOS is always very polished though it may lack some functionality and features. What it does do it typically does well. The iPad 2 is a device that my wife would appreciate very much and the XOOM is a device that I would prefer and will eventually pick up. I spent a number of years with Nokia Maemo tablets, waiting for Nokia and the community to fix issues and develop. I see a way better experience to come here than I did there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I provided a link in my...erm...second post in this thread, I think it was. My main concern with buying devices of this nature that need updating often is that the makers might tend to disregard their products once they are bought. I'm not rich enough to take a chance on it. Motorola has been known to not support their products over their lifetime so that people will be moved to replace the product with a newer one. Motorola, Samsung, LG and pretty much all of the companies that make devices of this nature do the same. They are in this business with one motive: to make more money. They can't make money wasting time supporting older devices...even though they should. Motorola is in the worse position of them all because they are barely hanging on in the market.
When you know this about a company and then read user reviews that say the same thing, you know there is a serious issue. The link I posted was of a user review on Amazon that says the same thing I do. I already had this knowledge of Motorola prior to reading or knowing of the Amazon user review.
When I made my first post in this section...a completely different thread...I wasn't mindful of this concern with Motorola devices. Then, after having issued the post, I read this thread and started thinking about what I already know and have heard about not just Motorola but all of these device makers. It caused me to have a change of heart about seeking to acquire a Xoom or even the Samsung tablet, when it arrives.
This is why I made additional posts on the matter, to which some people accused me of trolling rather than understanding what had happened. They chose to quickly jump to the assumption I was being a troll rather than contemplating the situation and giving the benefit of the doubt. Their error is not my fault.
I own many Apple products and never respond negatively to people who spit out trash talk about them. I own many other products that get trash-talked from time to time. But I never respond negatively because I allow humans the freedom of saying what they want. They, however, refuse to allow me the same freedom.
Gorgonesh said:
This is the second thread I've seen you mention that Moto doesn't update non-carrier devices. Can you provide some reference here? I'm trying to understand how you think that the XOOM isn't going to get updates, especially since it has already received one and there are more on the way. The XOOM is a Google experience device and will get updates, and quicker than the Samsung products which will have to wait for TouchWiz to be pasted over top. After watching many Galaxy S users on carriers in the US wait for Froyo Samsung would be the last manufacturer I'd purchase from.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, I don't know where this perception is coming from.
Also, don't forget that HTC tablets will get delayed updates as well since they'll be running Sense for HC. Looks like Xoom might be the one getting the quickest updates since we're still on the stock HC experience.
I had a chance to play with a Xoom briefly at a local Best Buy and was pleasantly surprised how well I liked it. It felt solid and significant and looked very nice. Honeycomb was...well...pure honey. It left me with the distinct desire to own one. Though recent test have the iPad2 blowing it away, the iPad2 doesn't have the higher res display of the Xoom. I would much rather watch the Xoom display than the iPad2.
But I need people;s experiences with the Xoom since it is a significant investment for me. I would buy the full-priced WiFi-only version, that's why it would be such a significant investment...no subsidized pricing. However, knowing what I know of Motorola's support tactics, we all really should be boycotting them rather than considering buying anything from them. They never update any non-subsidized products. If you own a Moto device from a carrier, you wil eventually get updates and bug fixes. But it you buy one outright, you are abandon as soon as they have your money.
I paid a 1000$ for mine and I am very happy.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA App
Based on what I read in another thread about some bugs in HC, I've decided to either wait for a Google produced tablet with HC or stick with Apple and wait for an iPad with a higher res display. I know Google and Apple take good care of their customers with updates, support and bug fixes so it won't be a worry to me. The carriers and other manufacturers tend to be greedy and slight their customers. I won't take a chance on them.
MartyLK said:
Based on what I read in another thread about some bugs in HC, I've decided to either wait for a Google produced tablet with HC or stick with Apple and wait for an iPad with a higher res display. I know Google and Apple take good care of their customers with updates, support and bug fixes so it won't be a worry to me. The carriers and other manufacturers tend to be greedy and slight their customers. I won't take a chance on them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The xoom is a google experience device. Its like the droid of tablets.
Sent from my Motorola Olympus
MartyLK said:
I had a chance to play with a Xoom briefly at a local Best Buy and was pleasantly surprised how well I liked it. It felt solid and significant and looked very nice. Honeycomb was...well...pure honey. It left me with the distinct desire to own one. Though recent test have the iPad2 blowing it away, the iPad2 doesn't have the higher res display of the Xoom. I would much rather watch the Xoom display than the iPad2.
But I need people;s experiences with the Xoom since it is a significant investment for me. I would buy the full-priced WiFi-only version, that's why it would be such a significant investment...no subsidized pricing. However, knowing what I know of Motorola's support tactics, we all really should be boycotting them rather than considering buying anything from them. They never update any non-subsidized products. If you own a Moto device from a carrier, you wil eventually get updates and bug fixes. But it you buy one outright, you are abandon as soon as they have your money.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What test blew the Xoom away?
MartyLK said:
I had a chance to play with a Xoom briefly at a local Best Buy and was pleasantly surprised how well I liked it. It felt solid and significant and looked very nice. Honeycomb was...well...pure honey. It left me with the distinct desire to own one. Though recent test have the iPad2 blowing it away, the iPad2 doesn't have the higher res display of the Xoom. I would much rather watch the Xoom display than the iPad2.
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+ The Android OS is more friendly for everyday use. I owned a iPad, loved it, but when I got the Xoom, I realized that a tablet could be way better To say it simply, with honeycomb you have everything at hand with a simple touch, while on the iPad you have to browse through many screens to get things done. Huge difference if you want to use a tablet more productively and not for incidentally browsing, reading etc.
For example:
Picture this, I have four very active email accounts. I have a widget for each of them on my desktop. When I want to check my mail I just press home and I directly see the the new messages in each mailbox. On the iPad I first had to open the mail app and then I had to click on each of the different mailboxes to see the new messages. What a usability difference....
And this is just one example. I think Android tablets will definitely be a tough competition for the iPad. Didn't expect that till I did the switch myself. Lot of potential.
Sistum Id said:
What test blew the Xoom away?
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Click to collapse
+1
The only comparison tests i've seen the xoom won! Unless of course you mean the hype/BS test on the iforum site.
Sistum Id said:
What test blew the Xoom away?
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Click to collapse
The synthetic benchmarks that anandtech ran that every Steve worshipper in the land uses as ipad 2 purchase validation.
It showed the tegra as sort of lacking in the graphics department. Personally, I didn't buy a xoom to play games, I have a PC and PS3 for that.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App
MartyLK said:
But I need people;s experiences with the Xoom since it is a significant investment for me. I would buy the full-priced WiFi-only version, that's why it would be such a significant investment...no subsidized pricing. However, knowing what I know of Motorola's support tactics, we all really should be boycotting them rather than considering buying anything from them. They never update any non-subsidized products. If you own a Moto device from a carrier, you wil eventually get updates and bug fixes. But it you buy one outright, you are abandon as soon as they have your money.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My 2 cents for you, I looked at the Xoom simply as something to use while 'someone' is on my laptop for hours at a time. My nice new Dell Win7 laptop cost a little more than a Xoom, and it does so much more, so I personally don't look at the Xoom as a "PC replacement". It's something I plan to use at home mostly. I bought the WiFi only one because I didn't want to be tied to Verizon for 2 years, because we really don't know how long Moto is going to put the effort into the Xoom. I don't want to potentially be paying Verizon a monthly fee for a lightly/none supported product in months 12-24 down the road.
The clamor about "Xoom has no apps" is total BS. Having 10,000 apps that make fart noises isn't something to tout. Not everything is perfect, but I'm the type that wants to personalize my device. I think Ipad has it's place as does the Xoom. People that bash either just have incomplete lives with nothing better to do. In my opinion, Ipad is more mainstream, it's what the 'unwashed masses' will flock to, because it has a consistent and simple interface, stability and requires the person to be less involved with 'setting things up'.
I'm not a 'media intensive' person...I could give 2 ****s how Youtube works on the Xoom. I have not tried the HDMI output yet, but in using 'TV' apps I'm happy that I have the option, if I take a trip where I have WiFi that I can stream music/video (I don't care that it's not in 1080p, I can live without it on even a 6 hour trip). I'm intelligent enough to read the postings here, to find apps that let me stream Dexter Season 5, which is NOT out on Netflix yet, so THAT was cool to me. I did try the NHL.com Gamecenter streaming of live games and it worked pretty good.
Also, I have an EVO through Sprint, so for $30 a month I can activate it's HotSpot feature and get unlimited data. So in my mind, if I really want to use it 'away from home' for whatever reason someone has I can also turn on/off the Hotspot feature whenever and they prorate the $30/mo to the day. So if I turn the feature on/off for 5 days in the month, it costs me $5 for that month. I could decide to be lazy too, and just leave it enabled all month, and I think that's a better deal than a 2 year contract w/ Verizon with a monthly data cap. Of course what I am doing requires 'effort' that so many people just don't want to put into things.
To me, I guess having the 3/4G options would be nice at times, but really, where outside of Home does a person really need to whip out their tablet? You going to take it to a movie or dinner, or to the ballgame? If so, why did you pay to attend something and then stick your face in your tablet? Or if you are on a bus/train, why don't you just stick a big "please rob me" sign on your back? If you are using it for 'work' chances are that you need to use it for more than a few minutes and likely for data intensive things, so your likely only going to be 'working' someplace with WiFi....if your company doesn't have WiFi (like mine) that's probably a sign that you employer doesn't want your WiFi device at work
@ austonja, well stated, now this was one of the best replies I have read in a while.
Sistum Id said:
What test blew the Xoom away?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
3d tests. but apple is vying for top mobile gaming platform so you can see why.
I think you are asking the wrong question. Of course the Xoom is not the BEST...but then NO product fulfills that criteria for me. The Xoom is excellent. I enjoy it greatly, and there are reasons I picked it over the other options which are still valid. I am satisfied with my choice, but it was a choice, and given slightly different thinking, I am sure I would have been happy with the iPad 2 or the other new Honeycomb tablets when they arrive. I personally think you would not regret a Xoom purchase...but that is just my opinion.
Xoom is decent, but its just the hardware. Before the end of the year I'm sure we will be seeing some great devices that will trump the xoom. Also 2012 I'm sure will be a very exciting year for tablets. Very excited to see what will happen
If now talking about Honeycomb, I believe from what I see is so far the best. Once it get its kinks worked out and we go through a few updates Honeycomb will be the best OS out there for tablets. Honeycomb>IOS>Palm(HP)>blackberry qnx
Sistum Id said:
What test blew the Xoom away?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4216/...rmance-explored-powervr-sgx543mp2-benchmarked
http://blog.laptopmag.com/ipad-2-graphics-performance-blows-away-motorola-xoom-original-ipad
http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/982268-ipad-2-gpu-blows-away-other-tablet-gpus-including-the-xoom/
http://www.getlaptopreview.com/lapt...e-blows-away-motorola-xoom-original-ipad.html
http://www.tablets.com/uncategorized/the-ipad-2s-powervr-gpu-blows-away-competition/
http://techscrunch.com/tablets/ipad...hz-dual-core-cortex-a9-and-powervr-sgx543mp2/
http://phonegear.eu/ipad-2-graphics...way-ipad-1-and-tegra-2-powered-motorola-xoom/
http://appmasters.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/ipad-2-graphics-blow-away-all-other-tablets/
http://androidforums.com/general-ta...-2-these-14-example-have-changed-my-mind.html
http://www.toteo.com/tech-gadgets/2012-ipad-2-graphics-much-faster-than-ipad-1-motorola-xoom.html
http://osxdaily.com/2011/03/25/ipad-vs-ipad-2-graphics-performance/
http://felixonline.co.uk/preview/tech/1100/ipad-2-blows-away-rivals/
http://www.digitalninjastl.com/blog...d-2’s-graphics-the-infinity-blade-test-shows/
There are many more that came up in Google search but I got tired of listing them all.
Eclair~ said:
None of those sites you listed performed the test again and some of them were simply just forums discussing the information Anandtech presented to us. They only posted Anandtech's graphs and reported the information back again. Therefore it was still "one review" and the fanboys can still say "Just one review!". I'm not trying to be negative, I get your point and what you were trying to prove. The iPad 2 is more powerful than the Xoom and anyone who claims otherwise is... in denial, or a fanboy.
You sound kinda hostile.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry about sounding hostile. It isn't meant. I have had a bad day already. Having been infracted for responding to hateful people and those very same people have not been infracted. When you are an innocent person who wants nothing more than to express views and allow others to express their views and you get accosted for it, it leaves you with a seriously jaded view of life and humanity. It makes a person hope there truly is something to the 2012 myth because I've had my fill of the hatred people love to spew.
As far as the iPad2 goes, I wouldn't buy one of those either. I don't like looking at highly visible pixels on a screen. The iPad2's 1024x768 res is just way too low for this day and time. I did love the display of the Xoom and was yearning for a Xoom...until I was reminded it would be supported by Motorola. But I did read a post that said Google would be updating the Xoom. If this is true...and I'm trying to get confirmation of this in another thread...I may yet acquire a Xoom. As I said, though, I won't get one through or locked to carriers. It would be the full-priced one with WiFi only.
Eclair~ said:
I do hope that when a Honeycomb tablet beats these benchmarks that it receives just as much press.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
when that happens i hope there are some games that make having that horsepower useful. as of right now i don't think there are any games on the android platform that would benefit. that would be as crappy as paying for 2 cpu cores but having apps only utilize one...
The iPad is a finished product. It's a good one, too. (My wife has the iPad 1.)
The Xoom is not finished, and it approaches the new iPad already.
The iPad is never gonna suck, but it's pretty obvious the Xoom has the potential to kick it's ass. However, I have very little faith that Google, Motorola or Verizon will bring it to that point. We'll need to rely on the Android development community for that.
In my opinion, the only time a Xoom will ever be really great is when it's rooted and has a custom ROM installed.
MartyLK said:
The sad part is, I predicted someone would waste their time to say that. It seems people would rather post negative light about others than useful information.
The *reason* why I posted all of those was because the fanboys would come back and say, "Aha! Just one review! That doesn't mean anything!"
However, knowing that someone would complain that all of those links weren't needed, I chose that direction rather than allowing the fanboy/girls a voice.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you for real? Go back and read all of your posts in this thread.
You posted that many links to show how people reported on the ONE benchmark? What does that have to do with anything? Not one of those sites re-ran or even confirmed the benchmark themselves, so it is relavent to point out that you could have and should have posted only one link.
You're trying to find fault for some reason in a product you don't own and then post it on the forum. You have to see why this might make me thing you're trolling for no reason.
If you don't like Motorola based on one forum post, that's fine. If you don't like the Xoom based on one test, that's fine. If you don't like it because you actually tried it and tested it for a long time, that's another story. Posting links we have all seen (weeks ago), doesn't help anyone on this forum or help anyone decide to/not to buy something that you don't even own.
Just how I feel about this whole thread.
Psychokitty said:
The iPad is a finished product. It's a good one, too. (My wife has the iPad 1.)
The Xoom is not finished, and it approaches the new iPad already.
The iPad is never gonna suck, but it's pretty obvious the Xoom has the potential to kick it's ass. However, I have very little faith that Google, Motorola or Verizon will bring it to that point. We'll need to rely on the Android development community for that.
In my opinion, the only time a Xoom will ever be really great is when it's rooted and has a custom ROM installed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the problem with Motorola products, the BIOS and bootloader are locked. The only time a custom ROM can be flashed is if it's based on an official Motorola ROM. That's one of my biggest concerns about Motorola. They hinder the XDA community from doing their magic on Motorola devices. If Google releases an updated Honeycomb ROM that deals with bugs and provides performance enhancement, the XDA community can't use it on Motorola devices until Motorola makes an official ROM out of it.
MartyLK said:
That's the problem with Motorola products, the BIOS and bootloader are locked. The only time a custom ROM can be flashed is if it's based on an official Motorola ROM. That's one of my biggest concerns about Motorola. They hinder the XDA community from doing their magic on Motorola devices. If Google releases an updated Honeycomb ROM that deals with bugs and provides performance enhancement, the XDA community can't use it on Motorola devices until Motorola makes an official ROM out of it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Xoom is completely unlocked. Unlocked bootloader (with standard sdk tools you can unlock it), and there are no signature checks, at all. We can modify the xoom software however we want.
Learn your facts before you post.
This was posted by p3droid on mydroidworld - many of us know him, or have at least heard of him. He knows what hes talking about, and this info is somewhat disturbing. This is just a copy/paste of his OP.
Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers
Background
I don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water.
I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones.
Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word.
This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do.
One Shoe Falls
Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Motorola[/FONT][/FONT] working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Google[/FONT][/FONT] through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done.
During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November.
The Other Shoe Falls
Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear?1. New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging.
2.Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]HTC [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]devices[/FONT][/FONT])
3. The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks.I think I posted my first angry message and [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]tweet[/FONT][/FONT] about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats.
Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new?1. Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]program[/FONT][/FONT] that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids.
2. Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features:
a. one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether)
b. a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted.
c. security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones.The Rubber Meets the Road
So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression.
Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs.
This is what I have heard:1. The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version.
2. More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.1. What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information.3. In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data).
4. Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]applications[/FONT][/FONT] can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want)
5. Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program.
6. The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S).The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges.
What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers.
So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - as we know it - is living on borrowed time.
In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings:
I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.
Disclaimers:
I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs.
This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. *
I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers. "
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
Just thought of a potential solution. We could have someone develop a program which accepts these apps and finds whatever sort of signature the carriers are checking for. It can keep it on our phone and ping back to the carriers when queried.
Just a rough idea. But I know there are people far more intelligent than me that can get this done. Or perhaps something more ingenious. I have faith. It will be a nuisance but if we support our strongest devs we will get through this until the carriers piss the **** off.
Isn't Google throwing out the baby with the bathwater here? If the main objective of the carriers is to prevent unauthorized tethering, isn't there a way to do that without blocking root access?
bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
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This is my gut reaction as well. However...... Having spoken with a friend and engineer in the industry (I cannot say her name so take this quote with as much salt as needed) it was explained to me like this.
" Most cell carrier's infastructure are having a tough time dealing with the current customer load as it is. In fact, if you look at events where the influx of people can shut down networks such as AT&T ( the South by South West music fest in Austin TX for example) the cell carries are currently not too worried about losing, what they believe to be, a few customers.
Especially when you figure in the fact that you modding your phone and placing it on thier network is looked upon as you violating their contract. And as it was YOU who violated the contract in thier eyes, the cell carrier can continue charging you for your contract as well as making you purchase an "approved replacement handset"
I am not sure if this is truly the outlook of the carriers or simply the way one employee understands the situation to be......but it wouldnt surprise me if this was exactly how the dev community was viewed by them.
BUT, being around and playing with my phones for a few years now has taught me one thing. There are people on these forums with everybit the brains and know-how as the engineers the carriers employ. And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
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responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
cegna09 said:
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
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I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
Okay tracking rooted users is new to me. but I thought the rest was normal procedure?
...Root exploit>carrier update (patches root)>new root exploit>new carrier update (patches new root)>newest root exploit...
How is the op any different than current procedure.? Is it just the addition of carriers tracking rooted users that makes this post notable? Because it seems like scaremongering to me. Should I really be that concerned? I already knew att doesn't like me to tether without a plan, and will do what it can to stop me. I dont have any more reason to believe att will stop service to my phone now than before I read this post.
Basically what started all this guys, was theft of services (free tethering) Everyone who has used the free tethering 'hacks' are largely responsible for this movement. Had everyone modded their phones responsibly, and not stolen services from the carriers because they thought they 'had that right' then this would probably not be happening to the extent that it is. I, for one, do not nor have i ever used a free tethering hack. I have unlimited data and use that freely on my phone. I use my pc for web browsing when i have a lot to do online. Below is a quote from a friend of mine on the Atrixforums.com site that is a very good view and quite accurate interpretation of whats happening.
das8nt said:
Yeah, I always knew something like this was going to come down the pipe... it was only a matter of time.
The third part, The Rubber Meets the Road, has been added. I've had some more time to think about this, and I've come to realize a few things. The following is my opinion on the whole subject. It might not be a very popular one, and posting it is not meant to start a large debate or anything, I just wanted to express my feeling on the matter. Please do not take offense to any of the points I'm trying to make; hopefully some of you know me well enough so far to know that I don't mean offense to anyone.
Opinion starts here...
They're right. The manufacturers, the carriers... they're right. We may not like it, but in the end they both have the full say in what happens. I'll give a few examples in a moment as to why I see it this way, but first I need to let you know where I'm coming from. I have a rooted phone; it's not my first rooted phone. I have tethered; though not often or very much at all, but I have tethered without a tethering plan on my account. I have installed ROMs, custom kernels, MODs, hacks... you name it, I've done it. I enjoy it if only because I can. Did I do it because it was needed? In some circumstances, I might argue, "yes;" in others, not in the slightest... it was just fun. The point to this being is that I have done most of everything that is being discussed in the Food For Thought post; and I've done it because I wanted to.
That brings me to a first example. You buy a car; a $20k car at that. Say you pay cash for it; it's yours. You don't even have to have full coverage insurance on it if you don't want to (some states.) You bought it as you daily driver, but you want to make some mods to it: aftermarket exhaust, lowering kit, cool-air intake.... and nitrous. You can do all of those things.; there's no one stopping you. What you can't do though, is maintain a factory warranty on your new car if you install those mods. When you alter the build of the car you are losing your right to claim that that car was manufactured improperly since it's no longer in the same state in which it was delivered to you. No big deal, right? Nothing ever goes wrong until the warranty expires anyway, we all know that. So, you take it to a drag track to see what it can do; how fast can it go? How quick can it hit the quarter mile line? You want to be know as the fastest, so you don't hold back... you kick in the nitrous.... but there's a problem. You didn't realize that the car was not meant to take that kind of load the way it was built. You blow your engine. Is the dealership or manufacturer going to warranty that engine? Would you really expect them to?
Second example. The same car you purchased, before you ever take it to the track, you want to drive it.... I mean really drive it; feel the true power and handling on the road. You take it out on the Interstate because that has the highest speed limits. You quickly get it up to to 70 mph, but that's not enough. You need more. You start to push it a little farther; no big deal... law enforcement doesn't usually care if you're only going a few mph over the limit, right? Well, you haven't been caught yet, so why not push it a little more? Before you know it you're at 95 mph and you see blue lights coming up quick behind you. Is that office going to let you off the hook because you own the car, have it modded and you feel you can do what you want with it? Would you expect them to?
Yes, we buy the phones. Yes, we own them. Yes, we can mod them how ever we can. What we can't do, though, is agree to a service contract and expect the provider of that contract to allow us to ignore their rules and exploit their services to the point that it costs them money. They are a business. They are not in the business for giving away free service, or replace products because the end user did not use them as intended; if they were they would not be in business very long. The carrier has the right to charge what they do, whether we like it or not. We, as users, have the right to find service elsewhere (most of us) or do with out. We agree to their terms when we allow them to provide us service. You do not have to sign a contract to agree to their terms; activating your phone on their network makes the agreement for you. Manufacturers have the right to lock their phones down, after all, they manufacture them. They are not in business to provide two or three phones for the price of one just because we broke the first couple trying to make them do things they were not intended to do. Again, if they were then they wouldn't be in business very long. If we do not like their practices we can buy from others.
I guess what it all boils down to in my mind is that if modding and hacking had been used the right way, we, the modding community and it's followers, might not have this situation coming down on us. If we did it just to customize our phones the way we want them, I'm sure they would have allowed that and worked with us. Since the opposite has been true for the most part, it surprises me in no way that this is about to happen. Users have been 'jailbreaking' and 'rooting' their phones for years, with a vast majority of them being used to circumvent the rules. So, the rules are about to change... like it or not.
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bongd said:
I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
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The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
cegna09 said:
The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
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I'm sure there are a slew of celebrity lawyers on speed dial, and I know that the Apple jailbreaking case will be strongly referenced if there is a class action lawsuit.
I also recognize and appreciate the circumstances regarding closing and finding exploits. It's always a game of cat and mouse. And it sucks having to find exploits and holes. Sometimes it's easy but sometimes it's extremely tough. I'm hoping it's not the latter.
In any event, I'm going to hold out. I know that there'll be a work around or at least a ton of backlash. You bring up a good point that it's a very small percentage of users who root. But that small percentage is virtually all made up of power users. While we're small in numbers, we're more intelligent than the tweenies who just get Androids for texting and Facebook.
I know that petitions and things like that normally don't get done (I never bothered with the bootloader petition for example) but I know that more constructive and intelligent users will chime in with glorious ideas to keep this **** at bay. I sincerely hope it was a late April fools day joke or something. I don't mind Google data mining and harvesting all my consumer logistics as long as they don't clamp down on my phone. Win win situation. I don't mind their parasitic or insidious intentions at all.
kdspiv said:
And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
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Except Motorola's bootloaders.
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
RacecarBMW said:
Except Motorola's bootloaders.
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It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
Kueller said:
It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
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If only someone was willing to risk their job
phobos512 said:
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
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If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
ok i can sorta understand them wanting to stop free tethering, but why root in general, some people like adding custome roms, or tweaking themes to make their phone that THEY purchased look the way they want it to. I really don't use tether, but locking down root, that's just ridiculous...smh
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
jgc121 said:
If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
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Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
phobos512 said:
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
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I too have been modding vehicles for nearly 15 yrs now, I am an ASE certified technician with EPA certifications, and an Associates Degree in Business Management as well. (Feel free to pm me for proof) I am well aware of this act and the laws. You are missing the point of the previous posts.
A manufacturers warranty would never cover a blown engine due to N20 use.... it just wont. Its intended to cover the engine as it was from the factory. Any changes to the factory setup (within certain limits) are ok. Something like N20 - thats a deal breaker.
As i said before - the previous posts are not MY opinions.... just information i was passing along.
Not sure about that whole Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act..... didn't feel like reading up on it.... but in regards to the whole thing with AT&T and potentially other carriers shutting off all form of cell service to a person with a rooted/jailbroken phone by way of discovery with a special code in the software.... it won't happen unless they're using it in an illegal way (as in using a free tethering workaround, and abusing it to the point that it's easily distinguished that something fishy is going on).... plain and simple. As i mentioned in the other thread with the exact same article linked to in the Atrix forums (one of the other recent threads), the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) was ammended in July 2010, and one of those ammendments was that jailbreaking/rooting a mobile phone to install unauthorized or unapproved applications on the phone is legal.
So.... in regards to the earlier comment someone made laughing at the idea of a "revolt"..... if AT&T starts shutting off service to people who rooted/jailbroke their phone for the sole purpose of either installing a modified ROM or allowing further customisation of the OS than the non-rooted/jailbroke device will allow, then yes, there WOULD be a revolt. That revolt would take the form of... what i believe would fall under a class-action lawsuit. If they can't prove that the person who's service they cut off was using their rooted/jailbroken device in a way that was hindering their service.... which would mostly be the free tethering workarounds and some of those morons downloading quite a few gigabytes of data in a month..... then they would technically be breaking federal law by doing so.