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i spoke to htc about the abysmal battery life, they say that there could be extended batteries in the near future, with a new back cover (with the back sticking out)
i dont mind charging it every day but
everytime i do something basic, for couple of minutes, it goes down by 1 percent, everything is turned off, gsm 2g mode, etc.
anyway the guy at htc said its due to the massive screen, this is what drains majority of the juice,
For what this device has and what it can do the battery life is pretty good, if you just use it for a few random pics, bit of browsing, bit of music and a few calls you should get a days use, if you sit there for ages messing with it its gonna drain.
Im pleased with it myself, apart from the bugs, but waiting......
It's killing you literally? Step away man!
I find the battery life on-par with other smart phones I've owned. I use a desktop cradle (well should soon be using a desktop cradle) and an active holder in the car, so I find the battery keeps up OK with a typical day's use for me. The biggest battery killer is when the screen is on full brightness so I find essential to have the phone on power when I'm using the satnav.
I had really high hopes for this thread when I read the title. Needless to say, I'm pretty disappointed.
Where's the death I was promised?
Die and prove it.
mox123 said:
i spoke to htc about the abysmal battery life, they say that there could be extended batteries in the near future, with a new back cover (with the back sticking out)
i dont mind charging it every day but
everytime i do something basic, for couple of minutes, it goes down by 1 percent, everything is turned off, gsm 2g mode, etc.
anyway the guy at htc said its due to the massive screen, this is what drains majority of the juice,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be fair most smartphones drain their batteries pretty damned quickly. Disconnect your data connection when you're not using it and bluetooth too. OK so you won't get weather updates but you'll save battery life. Just charge it nightly and buy a car charger if you really drain that sucker!
Wow, I think battery life is good considering the screen, better than I expected.
Currently, with screen set to 70% brightness, push email on 0800-1800 with hourly retrieval outside those hours, hourly weather/Twitter update, automatic Quick-GPS almanac data update, I last all day (~0700 to 2300), and still with about 20-30% headroom with the following use:
Push email as per above settings
50 minutes GPS tracking
50 minutes bluetooth on (heart rate monitor)
1-2 hours listening to music
Around 1-2 hours high-drain use (screen on, using cellular data/WiFi/GPS - for example browsing/app use/gaming/watching video)
30-40 SMS
15 minutes calls
One simple little trick that I learnt some time ago to preserve battery life is ..........turn down the brightness of the screen display. The brighter it is the more juice gets used.
Get the screen to turn itself off after, say, 30 secs of use. That also helps.
The rest, such as killing off data connections when not in use, etc, you already know.
It never ceases to surprise me at the number of negative comments re battery life. The impression I am left with is that if the battery does not last at least 2 months between charges, even though it is being hammered to within an inch of it's life, then that makes the battery performance rubbish. Anyone ever heard of a battery charger?
It's a really easy to use piece of kit that comes with your device that can be plugged in at night when you are asleep, leaving your device fresh for the morning.
Amazing.
WB
What the heck do you expect from such a phone? The energy management is kinda good and it's the display that kills battery life. You have to get use to it. At least my Touch HD seems to last much longer, but I would never change back.
If you watch a video your battery capacity drops quickly. I estimated 4,3-4,5h of HW-acc WVGA video and 3,5h with a non-HW-acc VGA video. Not that much but it really looks fantastic.
My Solution for this problem is: second battery, extended battery and/or load the battery whereever u can. My normal usage drains 30% of the battery a day, so I get 3 days of normal usage (I'm not an excessive handy user). The standby duration is with 300h not that good, but yeah that means still 12,5 days of standby if I calculated correctly.
The point is, that the phone is that good that I'm attracted to play with it and then the battery life tends to last just a day or less.
I bought a second battery (~22€) just for longer rides. I think it's ok.
mox123 said:
i spoke to htc about the abysmal battery life, they say that there could be extended batteries in the near future, with a new back cover (with the back sticking out)
i dont mind charging it every day but
everytime i do something basic, for couple of minutes, it goes down by 1 percent, everything is turned off, gsm 2g mode, etc.
anyway the guy at htc said its due to the massive screen, this is what drains majority of the juice,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
EEK!, don't come on this forum and complain about the HD2! not allowed. this is now the official HD2 Appreciation society, don't ya know.
I recommend instead you buy some lube oil, massage it into the device, light some candles, play a bit of Barry White, and all will be well.
Then come on this site and reassure all the sensitive souls here that it is indeed the Holy Grail of mobiles and admit you are a Troll for finding a fault with it, and daring to ask about why it does not preform as it says on the tin.
And final advice...In the words of legendary Basil Fawlty... Don't mention the War !..or in this case, the Keyboard!!, I mentioned it once...and thought I got away with it..but no.
hawrai68 said:
EEK!, don't come on this forum and complain about the HD2! not allowed. this is now the official HD2 Appreciation society, don't ya know.
I recommend instead you buy some lube oil, massage it into the device, light some candles, play a bit of Barry White, and all will be well.
Then come on this site and reassure all the sensitive souls here that it is indeed the Holy Grail of mobiles and admit you are a Troll for finding a fault with it, and daring to ask about why it does not preform as it says on the tin.
And final advice...In the words of legendary Basil Fawlty... Don't mention the War !..or in this case, the Keyboard!!, I mentioned it once...and thought I got away with it..but no.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nice one.
NetDwarf said:
What the heck do you expect from such a phone? The energy management is kinda good and it's the display that kills battery life. You have to get use to it. At least my Touch HD seems to last much longer, but I would never change back.
If you watch a video your battery capacity drops quickly. I estimated 4,3-4,5h of HW-acc WVGA video and 3,5h with a non-HW-acc VGA video. Not that much but it really looks fantastic.
My Solution for this problem is: second battery, extended battery and/or load the battery whereever u can. My normal usage drains 30% of the battery a day, so I get 3 days of normal usage (I'm not an excessive handy user). The standby duration is with 300h not that good, but yeah that means still 12,5 days of standby if I calculated correctly.
The point is, that the phone is that good that I'm attracted to play with it and then the battery life tends to last just a day or less.
I bought a second battery (~22€) just for longer rides. I think it's ok.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly !!
1000 Mhz this bugger does.
And really its more then just a phone. with the battery cunsumption like wise.
But they told me one thing,,. something that Noone does
When you get the HD2. Its battery got 20% juice init.
Thats not for fun of the company (prolly sanyo) was laizy and dint bother to fill em 100%.
You have to charge the battery 6 to 12 hours and to peeking at your new jewel.
And i know Noone ever does that. But it ensures batterylife and eficiency
Here is the article >>
Initialize a new battery. New batteries should be fully charged before their first use to obtain maximum capacity.
Nickel-based batteries should be charged for 16 hours initially and run through 2-4 full charge/full discharge cycles, while lithium ion batteries should be charged for about 5-6 hours.
Ignore the phone telling you that the battery is full--this is normal but is not accurate if the battery is not initialized.
#DO NOT fully discharge a lithium-ion battery!
Unlike Ni-Cd batteries, lithium-ion batteries' life is shortened every time you fully discharge them.
Instead, charge them when the battery meter shows one bar left.
Lithium-ion batteries, like most rechargeable batteries have a set amount of chargers in them.[1]
2Keep the battery cool.
Your battery will last longest if used near room temperature, and nothing wears on a battery like extended exposure to high temperatures. While you can’t control the weather, you can avoid leaving your phone in a hot car or in direct sunlight, and you don’t have to carry your phone in your pocket, where your body heat will raise its temperature.
In addition, check the battery while it’s charging. If it seems excessively hot, your charger may be malfunctioning.
3Charge your battery correctly, in accordance with its type. Most newer cell phones have lithium-ion batteries, while older ones generally have nickel-based batteries. Read the label on the back of the battery or in the technical specifications in the manual to determine which yours is.
Nickel-based batteries (either NiCd or NiMH) DO NOT generally suffer from a misunderstood phenomenon known as the "memory effect." As described in Wikipedia and many expert sources,[2] the term "memory effect" has been widely mythologized to describe any and all deterioration of NiCd (and other battery chemistries), in many cases misleading consumers into further shortening the lives of the batteries through over-discharging to "recondition" them.[3]
[This section formerly read: If you charge the battery partially enough times, eventually the battery "forgets" that it can charge fully. A nickel-based battery suffering from memory effect can be reconditioned, which requires the battery to be completely discharged, then completely recharged (sometimes several times). The appropriate length of time between reconditionings varies. A good rule to follow for nickel-battery cell-phones is to discharge them completely once every two to three weeks, and only when you have a charger available. [4] ]
Lithium ion batteries can be preserved by careful charging and avoiding storing them at full charge.[5] They do not require "reconditioning."
Regardless of the battery type, use only a charger rated for your battery, and discontinue use of a charger that causes the battery to heat up excessively.
Enonoid said:
Exactly !!
1000 Mhz this bugger does.
And really its more then just a phone. with the battery cunsumption like wise.
But they told me one thing,,. something that Noone does
When you get the HD2. Its battery got 20% juice init.
Thats not for fun of the company (prolly sanyo) was laizy and dint bother to fill em 100%.
You have to charge the battery 6 to 12 hours and to peeking at your new jewel.
And i know Noone ever does that. But it ensures batterylife and eficiency
Here is the article >>
Initialize a new battery. New batteries should be fully charged before their first use to obtain maximum capacity.
Nickel-based batteries should be charged for 16 hours initially and run through 2-4 full charge/full discharge cycles, while lithium ion batteries should be charged for about 5-6 hours.
Ignore the phone telling you that the battery is full--this is normal but is not accurate if the battery is not initialized.
#DO NOT fully discharge a lithium-ion battery!
Unlike Ni-Cd batteries, lithium-ion batteries' life is shortened every time you fully discharge them.
Instead, charge them when the battery meter shows one bar left.
Lithium-ion batteries, like most rechargeable batteries have a set amount of chargers in them.[1]
2Keep the battery cool.
Your battery will last longest if used near room temperature, and nothing wears on a battery like extended exposure to high temperatures. While you can’t control the weather, you can avoid leaving your phone in a hot car or in direct sunlight, and you don’t have to carry your phone in your pocket, where your body heat will raise its temperature.
In addition, check the battery while it’s charging. If it seems excessively hot, your charger may be malfunctioning.
3Charge your battery correctly, in accordance with its type. Most newer cell phones have lithium-ion batteries, while older ones generally have nickel-based batteries. Read the label on the back of the battery or in the technical specifications in the manual to determine which yours is.
Nickel-based batteries (either NiCd or NiMH) DO NOT generally suffer from a misunderstood phenomenon known as the "memory effect." As described in Wikipedia and many expert sources,[2] the term "memory effect" has been widely mythologized to describe any and all deterioration of NiCd (and other battery chemistries), in many cases misleading consumers into further shortening the lives of the batteries through over-discharging to "recondition" them.[3]
[This section formerly read: If you charge the battery partially enough times, eventually the battery "forgets" that it can charge fully. A nickel-based battery suffering from memory effect can be reconditioned, which requires the battery to be completely discharged, then completely recharged (sometimes several times). The appropriate length of time between reconditionings varies. A good rule to follow for nickel-battery cell-phones is to discharge them completely once every two to three weeks, and only when you have a charger available. [4] ]
Lithium ion batteries can be preserved by careful charging and avoiding storing them at full charge.[5] They do not require "reconditioning."
Regardless of the battery type, use only a charger rated for your battery, and discontinue use of a charger that causes the battery to heat up excessively.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a shame most powerful mobiles heat up like nobody's business whilst on full chat these days.....there's no chance of keeping the batteries cool! Still, it's an expendable item and at least you can buy a replacement.....none of this iPhone 'sealed' tin rubbish.
while i find the battery life reasonable with the features this phone has (read screen size, processor speed), it will be nice to get the CPU throttling app another thread is discussing. don't need that 1000MHz running everytime i pick the phone.
On the same notes, how can i check if automatic screen brightness is kicking in?
here4info said:
how can i check if automatic screen brightness is kicking in?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stick the phone under a bright light such as a desk lamp and cover the light sensor with a piece of paper.
here4info said:
while i find the battery life reasonable with the features this phone has (read screen size, processor speed), it will be nice to get the CPU throttling app another thread is discussing. don't need that 1000MHz running everytime i pick the phone.
On the same notes, how can i check if automatic screen brightness is kicking in?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It certainly isn't running when I boot my phone up....hardly gives an impression of speed.
mox123 said:
i spoke to htc about the abysmal battery life, they say that there could be extended batteries in the near future, with a new back cover (with the back sticking out)
i dont mind charging it every day but
everytime i do something basic, for couple of minutes, it goes down by 1 percent, everything is turned off, gsm 2g mode, etc.
anyway the guy at htc said its due to the massive screen, this is what drains majority of the juice,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
are you the first wm phone user? Do you have good experience with phones that has so much specs? Do you use wifi and browse with phone very heavily? If you do, it is really normal that the battery will drain. My Touch HD does the same, it can last a day or 2 or drain like water not more than half a day, it depends on your usage. Try to get a second battery, or even the third one like I do, what is a big deal? It is completely normal.
I don't have a lot complaints on this phone as it meets most of my requirements.about the battery, I seriously don't think it is that bad. for example if you have a car with 1500 horse power and expect it to have or rather 30-40 mpg, don't think it is possible. try to use your local gas station (in this case your friendly charger) more often.move on with your life please.
c4Lvin said:
I don't have a lot complaints on this phone as it meets most of my requirements.about the battery, I seriously don't think it is that bad. for example if you have a car with 1500 horse power and expect it to have or rather 30-40 mpg, don't think it is possible. try to use your local gas station (in this case your friendly charger) more often.move on with your life please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That might be a little difficult because this battery problem is killing him, LITERALLY
I thought I'd write this thread simply to see if it can work for others.
I have read throughout this site that it's good to allow your battery to become completely drained, and then recharge via the power adaptor. Some people even suggest to do it 2-3 times.
Yesterday, for the second time since I bought the phone several weeks ago, I decided to allow the battery to become completely drained. I then charged it using ONLY the power adaptor.
Results?
Before, when in standby mode, no radio, wifi off, screen off, I would lose about 1% battery power per hour through the night while sleeping.
This morning I was shocked. My battery was fully recharged just before midnight, and when I woke up at about 9am this morning, I had lost only 2%. Yes, it said 98% charge left.
WOOHOO!
Anyway, I guess it really does help to allow the battery to drain and fully recharge a few times in the beginning.
Peter
I seem to read somewhere that Lithium-ion batteries don't have to be drained to be charged properly. Moreover, it's just okay even if you keep on charging it with the green light on, i.e. reached fully-charged level. Well, I myself just got the HD2 and am pretty satisfied with its battery performance although I haven't really monitored it closely. I just charge it whenever I can.
I recycle my battery about once a month and it really helps.
joshzzz2001 said:
I seem to read somewhere that Lithium-ion batteries don't have to be drained to be charged properly. Moreover, it's just okay even if you keep on charging it with the green light on, i.e. reached fully-charged level. Well, I myself just got the HD2 and am pretty satisfied with its battery performance although I haven't really monitored it closely. I just charge it whenever I can.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are right that it's perfectly acceptable to continually charge the HD2. You can't hurt the battery. I'm just saying that I tried this suggestion (from many other threads) and it seemed to improve my battery situation. It may not work for everyone, but at least it's something.
Peter
lude219 said:
I recycle my battery about once a month and it really helps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I may try it once a month, too.
Peter
Peter,
This is the way to treat batteries if you want to get the best performance out of them. There are numerous posts on this issue on here but it does not matter how many times it is mentioned, people still don't read.
What you get is a load of comments about how poor the battery life is without them going through the conditioning process that will get the best out of their battery, irrespective of what type of battery it is.
It is always advised that you go through several cycles of full charge and full discharge, preferably when the battery is new, to get best results, and to do this on a regular basis throughout the life of the battery.
Undertake a good deed for the day; spread the word!
WB
wacky.banana said:
Peter,
This is the way to treat batteries if you want to get the best performance out of them. There are numerous posts on this issue on here but it does not matter how many times it is mentioned, people still don't read.
What you get is a load of comments about how poor the battery life is without them going through the conditioning process that will get the best out of their battery, irrespective of what type of battery it is.
It is always advised that you go through several cycles of full charge and full discharge, preferably when the battery is new, to get best results, and to do this on a regular basis throughout the life of the battery.
Undertake a good deed for the day; spread the word!
WB
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right. I've read so many different opinions on this matter, including a lot of research on the Internet. There really does not seem to be any consensus on the matter.
One thing's for sure, I will continue to cycle through full charge and full discharge on a regular basis, perhaps once a month. In the meantime, I'll just top it off every day.
Thanks.
PeterHTC said:
You're right. I've read so many different opinions on this matter, including a lot of research on the Internet. There really does not seem to be any consensus on the matter.
One thing's for sure, I will continue to cycle through full charge and full discharge on a regular basis, perhaps once a month. In the meantime, I'll just top it off every day.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is a more fundamental point to all this.
Its not the charging and discharging that makes the difference.
Its the working of the battery under load that allows the barry to achieve maximum capacity.
And constantly discharging/draining the battery will have a negative effect over time, shortening life span and usability.
Just charge and use as much as you can.
joshzzz2001 said:
I seem to read somewhere that Lithium-ion batteries don't have to be drained to be charged properly. Moreover, it's just okay even if you keep on charging it with the green light on, i.e. reached fully-charged level. Well, I myself just got the HD2 and am pretty satisfied with its battery performance although I haven't really monitored it closely. I just charge it whenever I can.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Strange that all previous phones I had I charged the same way - drain then charge for 12hrs first three times, and then drain / charge as I go - and battery always lasted satisfactorily to me ... I know it is a li-ion battery but for me it works every time and I am sticking to it until they invent better longer lasting batteries
What happens when you Recycle them tho Do you not have to buy another one as I see there not cheap.
Metta24 said:
What happens when you Recycle them tho Do you not have to buy another one as I see there not cheap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think he/she means re-cycle as in a charge/discharge cycle
I recently bought a HD2 and was reading very differing advice concerning teaching maximum battery capacity.
-do not let the battery go fully dry, it might harm it (source: wikipedia)
-cycle the battery, drain and fully charge a few times.
-charge as often and much as you can, the battery has no no memory, top it off as you like.
So,,,
I take it now, that the battery likes being used hard, especially when new.
Drain to 7% or so, recharge, drain till 7% or so, a few times.
So do not try to find energy saving mods in the beginning, but work it hard.
I noticed I get a huge battery drain increase when I set the screen backlight to 100 instead of 40. and what a nice display it is
So I figure thats nice way to get to know the HD2, to use it hard and bright, until the battery is 'conditioned' and I know what programs I love the extra brightness in.
I have not been able to drain the battery in a day of expected use yet, always had 23% left or so, which is almost a 4th..
Oh and sorry for off topic, but are any of you guys interested in the ebook reading capabilities on the device at all?
I use a free ebook reader called 'freda' on 'night mode' with black background and red letters, and due to the screen size it is so easy to use the HD2 as an ebook.
I snug into bed and read like 50 pages of an ebook and maybe drift off and the device will auto goto sleep too, if I go first.
It's great.
It's allot to read but got some good answers.
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Like I said in a previous thread, there does seem to be opinions on both sides of the isle regarding "training" a new battery. My experience has always that it definitely helps. Every device I've ever owned with a Li-Ion or Li-Polymer, I've found by training it I get a bit more than the reported average battery life.
With my Vibrant right now, I have 35 percent left after being off of the charger for 1 day and 5 hours. This is with light to moderate use, meaning some browsing, some phone calls, some market downloads, about 20 minutes of gaming, syncing, and reading e-mails. Of course my mileage varies if use the phone more.
MMcCraryNJ said:
Like I said in a previous thread, there does seem to be opinions on both sides of the isle regarding "training" a new battery. My experience has always that it definitely helps. Every device I've ever owned with a Li-Ion or Li-Polymer, I've found by training it I get a bit more than the reported average battery life.
With my Vibrant right now, I have 35 percent left after being off of the charger for 1 day and 5 hours. This is with light to moderate use, meaning some browsing, some phone calls, some market downloads, about 20 minutes of gaming, syncing, and reading e-mails. Of course my mileage varies if use the phone more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That looks about right even without "training" on mine. I probably wouldn't worry about it. One less thing to worry about you know?
Well, technically, both trains of thought are correct. Yes, calibrating your battery several times in a row will help battery life. But at the expense of total battery longevity. All full charge calibration cycles shorten the life of the battery. However, it is more annoying to have an inaccurate battery meter. So calibration cycles are a necessary evil.
Personally, I do a calibration cycle within a week of getting the phone. And then one calibration cycle every other month after that. I don't see any benefit to doing more than that. However, these phones are basically throw away after 2 years, so I am not sure that it matters much if you do it a whole bunch. Plus, the batteries are user replaceable. So it matters even less.
t1n0m3n said:
Well, technically, both trains of thought are correct. Yes, calibrating your battery several times in a row will help battery life. But at the expense of total battery longevity. All full charge calibration cycles shorten the life of the battery. However, it is more annoying to have an inaccurate battery meter. So calibration cycles are a necessary evil.
Personally, I do a calibration cycle within a week of getting the phone. And then one calibration cycle every other month after that. I don't see any benefit to doing more than that. However, these phones are basically throw away after 2 years, so I am not sure that it matters much if you do it a whole bunch. Plus, the batteries are user replaceable. So it matters even less.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's an interesting theory. Unfortunately it goes the opposite direction of my experience. My last battery lasted 3 years (I've quit using that phone, the battery is still good) and I deep cycle it every time.
It's not theory. It's the chemistry of Li ion batteries.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
And in the end, if your battery dies out, you can just replace it, right? This isn't an iphone where the battery isn't replaceable.
Can anyone tell me why the Android phones have battery life issues? Here's a scenario...my friend has an iphone, i have the fascinate. We both put our phones in our locker in the morning for work. We both come out for break and he still has well over 90% of battery life while mine is down to 70%. Why do the android phones drain so quickly. Yes I could put it in airplane mode and such but my friend doesn't have to on his Iphone.
Just wondering why these phones have such a tough time with battery life. I notice in a lot of the forums people are trying different things to get better battery life. I have tried different roms, kernels, radios, etc...and really don't notice a huge difference. I am not a heavy user of my phone and it lasts just about the day and dies. I may hit the net for few mins, do some texting, and check email from time to time. I would think the battery should last a couple days just doing this...not drain when the phone is just sitting idle. Anyway just wondering about this.
Apple has complete control over their phones. Designed in house, software developed in house, and carriers have no say in the software.
I have a feeling that has a lot to do with it.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA Premium App
Which ROM? Of course you are aware of the many workarounds needed to keep froyo idle drain under control? These will eventually be fixed for good.
I have even more of a complaint about the active screen-on drain. Using auto brightness indoors, its impossible to get more than 2.5-3.0 hours of screen time. (WIFI or 3g) This is way less than iphone 4's capability of around 8 hours. There are some things that help explain it like androids 100% cpu usage when scrolling or animating the UI. However, there must be massive differences in the screen power consumption. Yea, yea, SAMOLED, power draw depends heavily on displaying black vs. white etc, but my random usage never gets more than about 2.5 hours screen usage over a day. Say what you will about apple, but they optimized the hell out of battery life.
Which kernel are you using? After moderate usage for me (games, browsing web with wifi, phone calls, etc) my battery life is around 70% after 15 hours.
Kaze105 said:
Which kernel are you using? After moderate usage for me (games, browsing web with wifi, phone calls, etc) my battery life is around 70% after 15 hours.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Guys, since screen-on time dominates battery usage, it'd be nice to note how much screen-on time you get and your brightness setting. Defining "light" usage over a number of hours could mean just about anything... very subjective.
Scrappy1 said:
Guys, since screen-on time dominates battery usage, it'd be nice to note how much screen-on time you get and your brightness setting. Defining "light" usage over a number of hours could mean just about anything... very subjective.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True enough. I set my light to auto and since im usually in a room, the light setting is at lowest. When im outside, its goes to the brightest settings.
Shakes The AssClown said:
Can anyone tell me why the Android phones have battery life issues? Here's a scenario...my friend has an iphone, i have the fascinate. We both put our phones in our locker in the morning for work. We both come out for break and he still has well over 90% of battery life while mine is down to 70%. Why do the android phones drain so quickly. Yes I could put it in airplane mode and such but my friend doesn't have to on his Iphone.
Just wondering why these phones have such a tough time with battery life. I notice in a lot of the forums people are trying different things to get better battery life. I have tried different roms, kernels, radios, etc...and really don't notice a huge difference. I am not a heavy user of my phone and it lasts just about the day and dies. I may hit the net for few mins, do some texting, and check email from time to time. I would think the battery should last a couple days just doing this...not drain when the phone is just sitting idle. Anyway just wondering about this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Iphone pretty much have more or less the same battery life problems.
Scrappy1 said:
There are some things that help explain it like androids 100% cpu usage when scrolling or animating the UI. However, there must be massive differences in the screen power consumption. Yea, yea, SAMOLED, power draw depends heavily on displaying black vs. white etc, but my random usage never gets more than about 2.5 hours screen usage over a day. Say what you will about apple, but they optimized the hell out of battery life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you use Google Navigation and constantly force rerouting to destination by taking wrong turn/path, your 100% charged phone would hit empty within 2HRs or less with the screen brightness set at minimum.
Anandtech reveiw of several real world tests shows iphone 4 smokes the fascinate bad. Not even close.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3957/samsung-fascinate-review-verizons-galaxy-s-smartphone/8
Scrappy1 said:
Anandtech reveiw of several real world tests shows iphone 4 smokes the fascinate bad. Not even close.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3957/samsung-fascinate-review-verizons-galaxy-s-smartphone/8
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Click to collapse
We have a more powerful phone than the iphone 4, of course our battery is shorter. (better screen, faster cpu, etc) Also seems like our antenna is the best according to the review.
Android is made to constantly sync with the internet for updates and notifications. It's just the nature of the operating system to draw a lot of power because in theory it is a more powerful and complicated system. Also keep in mind that the battery inside an iPhone is huge and it is lithium polymer which lasts longer but is more expensive. These larger lithium polymer batteries are the main reason iPads and MacBooks get good battery life as well as their less powerful chip sets.
EDIT: Oh, and also iOS doesn't use as much RAM as Android so that also factors in to the battery life being generally better.
Kaze105 said:
We have a more powerful phone than the iphone 4, of course our battery is shorter. (better screen, faster cpu, etc) Also seems like our antenna is the best according to the review.
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Click to collapse
Dunno about you but my Fascinate get's poor signal compared to other phones. Also slower network speeds.
Kaze105 said:
We have a more powerful phone than the iphone 4, of course our battery is shorter. (better screen, faster cpu, etc) Also seems like our antenna is the best according to the review.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I appreciate the more open, easy to modify nature of android over apple. But to trying and explain the 2x worse battery life on android as arising from "better" processor and screen is wishful thinking at best... blatent android fanboy propaganda at worst. We need to learn how apple has optimized things, not turn an overconfident blind eye.
Scrappy1 said:
I appreciate the more open, easy to modify nature of android over apple. But to trying and explain the 2x worse battery life on android as arising from "better" processor and screen is wishful thinking at best... blatent android fanboy propaganda at worst. We need to learn how apple has optimized things, not turn an overconfident blind eye.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's unfortunately that the Fascinate lacks the monthly software update support similar to Apple, but using the support from this forum by the devs, I had achieved 1% power usage for every 3 hour idled = max possible 300 HRS.
Zacisblack said:
Android is made to constantly sync with the internet for updates and notifications. It's just the nature of the operating system to draw a lot of power because in theory it is a more powerful and complicated system. Also keep in mind that the battery inside an iPhone is huge and it is lithium polymer which lasts longer but is more expensive. These larger lithium polymer batteries are the main reason iPads and MacBooks get good battery life as well as their less powerful chip sets.
EDIT: Oh, and also iOS doesn't use as much RAM as Android so that also factors in to the battery life being generally better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Guys, there's a lot of android fanboy propaganda going on in here. I'm not against android, but don't automatically defend it like its your mama. The ifixit link below shows iphone 4 has 1420 mah battery as opposed to fascinates 1500 mah. They also both have 512 MB RAM. So that's not the issue.
Also, the Anandtech tests were done with phone on and active. So are you trying to explain android was at a disadvantage because it was "doing things in the background"? Like what? Any background process or sync service that kills your battery that bad is implemented horribly. iOS is doing the important stuff in the background too... maybe just not the ESPN or weather widget. But no one in their right mind believes those things are the problem.
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone-4-Teardown/3130/1
Scrappy1 said:
I appreciate the more open, easy to modify nature of android over apple. But to trying and explain the 2x worse battery life on android as arising from "better" processor and screen is wishful thinking at best... blatent android fanboy propaganda at worst. We need to learn how apple has optimized things, not turn an overconfident blind eye.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sadly, I am the opposite of an android fanboy as I would have gotten the iphone for verizon asap if I havent gotten the fascinate back at November. (Iphone on Verizon were still rumors back then). Also note that review was done in October last year. Battery life is probably much better now with cleaned roms and froyo.
If you really need to browse the web over 4 hours a day on your phone (use computer?), why not just get a larger battery or even get the iphone?
Edit: Hardware mean a lot in battery usage. After checking the iphones CPU, seems like its pretty much the same or similar to the ones of the fascinate, except slower clock speeds.
Kaze105 said:
Sadly, I am the opposite of an android fanboy as I would have gotten the iphone for verizon asap if I havent gotten the fascinate back at November. (Iphone on Verizon were still rumors back then). Also note that review was done in October last year. Battery life is probably much better now with cleaned roms and froyo.
If you really need to browse the web over 4 hours a day on your phone (use computer?), why not just get a larger battery or even get the iphone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Personally I don't get any better battery life from froyo ROMS. My wife's fascinate with stock eclair usually gets as many if not more hours of screen time as I get with superclean 2.9.2 and jt's EC10 w/ slight undervolt. Sometimes I get much worse battery life when I forget to activate one of the 10 workaround hacks still needed to fix the idle drain issue.
I use 2.5 hours of screen time daily quite often and find my battery exhausted before the day is over. Maybe I'm the rare case, but I doubt it.
Zacisblack said:
Dunno about you but my Fascinate get's poor signal compared to other phones. Also slower network speeds.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Verizon is pretty much known for its slower network speeds compared to AT&T. I do get pretty good signal, overall.
Scrappy1 said:
Personally I don't get any better battery life from froyo ROMS. My wife's fascinate with stock eclair usually gets as many if not more hours of screen time as I get with superclean 2.9.2 and jt's EC10 w/ slight undervolt. Sometimes I get much worse battery life when I forget to activate one of the 10 workaround hacks still needed to fix the idle drain issue.
I use 2.5 hours of screen time daily quite often and find my battery exhausted before the day is over. Maybe I'm the rare case, but I doubt it.
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Click to collapse
My battery life with imnuts undervolted kernel is much better than ones from previous EB01 kernels. I didnt find much difference between SC 2.9.2 ROM and Nameless V3 battery with the same kernel. I usually have around 75-50 percent battery life left from moderate usage. (Different from other people according to screen brightness and etc as stated in previous posts)
Kaze105 said:
My battery life with imnuts undervolted kernel is much better than ones from previous EB01 kernels. I didnt find much difference between SC 2.9.2 ROM and Nameless V3 battery with the same kernel. I usually have around 75-50 percent battery life left from moderate usage. (Different from other people according to screen brightness and etc as stated in previous posts)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Under battery details, what is your display "time on" at end of your day? What is Max "time on" you ever got? Without those numbers its hard to say anything objectively.
Scrappy1 said:
Under battery details, what is your display "time on" at end of your day? What is Max "time on" you ever got? Without those numbers its hard to say anything objectively.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since its monday tomorrow, ill test the max time on. At the end of the day, or rather when I start charging it again/installing kernels or roms, time on is 14 hours and 17 minutes.
On my fascinate I unplug phone at 645 check face book and xda for about a hour on auto brightness. I then go to school and check pulse and xda many times totaling around 2 hours. The rest of the time is idle so after 2-3 hours of screen time and then 3-4 hours of idle during the school day I get home with 85-89% left im using dark revenge with imnuts undervolted kernel. Im no android fanboy I'm just posting my stats.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA Premium App
I've been researching about batteries out of interest of replacement, better charging maintaining and longevity. Being unable to find a recently manufactured Z3C battery anywhere, I'm setting up a Galaxy S8+ replacement battery with a removed Z3C battery's printed circuit board solder connected. I can't find a good source on lithium-ion shelf life through Google but it's commonly mentioned to be 2-3 years to being considered depleted. I've got the mod working but haven't finished cleaning it up. The leftover space in the device got me curious on the actual capacity limit. I started calculating the differences and ended up writing it all up for comparison. I can follow up with some photos.
Notes
Measured by eye using a steel ruler and flat tool on an official warranty replacement 16W13 manufacture dated battery. The capacity feels depleted maybe 80% or so, so it's considered depleted. Being depleted the thickness may have swollen up to 10%. See sources below on these points.
Dimensions in centimeters
All numbers rounded to two decimal places
Nom = Nominal Voltage
Sony's original battery has an energy density of 2008 maximum technology according to this graph http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NkSg5gn6ePM/VVPBtPLreJI/AAAAAAAAAoI/-KeFe45ky14/s1600/Pix.png found on the source list below.
Using a case without the back panel easily affords an extra millimeter.
For an extra 0.9mm in thickness a Z1C 127 x 64.9 x 9.5 case can be used on a Z3C 127.3 x 64.9 x 8.6.
Original Batteries
Sony Z3C = 9 x 5.1 x 0.4 = 18.36ml = Nom 3.8V 2600mAh 141.61mAh/ml 0.54Wh/L = 2008 density
Samsung S8+, 2017 density = 8.3 x 4.55 x 0.5 = 18.88ml = Nom 3.85V 3500mAh 185.38mAh/ml 0.71Wh/L (or estimated Nom 3.8V 3360mAh 177.96mAh/ml 0.68Wh/L)
Hypothetical higher densitys
Sony Z3C, if matched 2014 maximum density = (estimated using 0.66Wh/L = Nom 3.8V 3189mAh 12.12Wh, 173.69mAh/ml)
Sony Z3C, if Samsung S8+ 2017 density = Nom 3.85V 3387mAh 13.04Wh (or estimated Nom 3.8V 3285mAh 12.48Wh)
Sony Z3C, hypothetical 0.1 thicker
9 x 5.1 x 0.5 = 22.95ml
If Original 2008 density = Nom 3.8V 3250mAh 12.35Wh
If 2014 density = (estimated using 0.66Wh/L = Nom 3.8V 3987mAh 15.15Wh, 173.73mAh/ml)
If 2017 density = Nom 3.85V 4231mAh 16.29Wh (or estimated Nom 3.8V 4106mAh 15.6Wh)
Sources
Good basic sources in general is scarce through basic searching on the topic of lithium-ion batteries. I think it's because the industry is highly competitive with low margins leading to secrecy in interest of intellectual property (got the gist of this from a few different Qnovo blog articles). Also it's got heavily ongoing academic focused research and development but would be funded and therefore guarded by the corporations . Funny though that my main sources are from CEO's of battery related companies. I think it's a case there of smaller companies with an interest and belief in sharing knowledge to create public awareness. Thus here we are on XDA with some relevant useful facts.
At 80% retained capacity a battery is considered depleted. Capacity loss is greatly accelerated after 80% as is the risk of safety measure failure
https://qnovo.com/what-happens-after-80-percent/. The industry leader in support and sales by model volume, Apple's warranty policy follows this guideline https://support.apple.com/en-au/ipho.../battery-power.
About battery thickness swelling.
https://qnovo.blogspot.com.au/2015/08/72_14.html
This article https://qnovo.com/moores-law-and-snails-law/ has a graph for Energy Density Wh/L by year which I used for estimating what Sony's battery could have been if maximum density was used at the time.
I used Table 4 from http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries to presume the capacity of 4.35V and 4.4V which I used for estimated results. Based like this:
4.30 110-115%
4.35 115-120%
4.4 120-125%
Really interesting, I was thinking to do something similiar, but with bigger battery and use z3c without glass back with maybe a moded case, photos would be really interesting, probably now gonna buy s8+ battery to tinker with, considering s8+ battery 7mm is shorter would really help in custom wiring to old z3c battery pcb
Photos with short descriptions https://imgur.com/a/8Ceha.
There's a lot of stuff to cover. I'll cover the basics. If anyone wants more information, just ask.
I was planning to remove the S8+ PCB and attempt to solder it myself. After Banggood didn't package the soldering iron order twice, I got fed up waiting and decided to quote a cheap phone technician. Given the fee was AUD $18 I went ahead.
There was some communication issues as the technician didn't speak English, so I had to discuss with the staff. I'd have preferred the S8+ PCB removed and with shorter wires but it has actually has worked out well. Looking at the broken battery I removed the Z3C PCB from, it's difficult removing the PCB from the spot welding while leaving lots of aluminium tab left over. I've read how aluminium is one of the most difficult materials to solder to and having big fresh tabs is easier and safer.
It all fits well and is still removable quick swappable with my other mod. I'll be monitoring its performance. I already use custom charge threshold rates and limits using Tasker rooted for longevity. I already previously monitor battery temperature, usage rates and voltage by overlay so I should be able to notice differences. Plus i've got two working Z3C's to power test :fingers-crossed:
Should probably add that doing any battery modification goes against safety recommendations. You need to know what you're doing for the involved risks. Follow electrostatic discharge safety for installation and use required measures for handling the battery if using it removable.
Hey, I'm interested in this mod. Can't wait to find out your results. I may be able to help you out a bit, I'm a CNC Machinist and I have my own set of calipers if you wanted a more accurate measurement on the z3c battery sizes. I may (read: may) be able to make a back plate that will hold a slightly different battery.
TheHow7zer said:
Hey, I'm interested in this mod. Can't wait to find out your results. I may be able to help you out a bit, I'm a CNC Machinist and I have my own set of calipers if you wanted a more accurate measurement on the z3c battery sizes. I may (read: may) be able to make a back plate that will hold a slightly different battery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're welcome to get more accurate measurements for correction. It shouldn't be much of a difference but can be useful for interests sake.
That's an interesting offer suggestion. I'm a little curious how much signal loss there is with a metal case. I prefer a TPU for the sides of my case with a small lip to cover the front, also a hard back to adhere 3M VHB for a Garmin interface. So I tracked down a Z1C Ringke fusion to combine all my hardware mods :laugh:
Wow very nice idea and the mod indeed I am sucker for battery life, so I'm very much interested in actual numbers here, you could provide us some screenshots and further feedback on mod performance.
I've got a question though, since the S8+ battery is 0.1mm thicker, would it be possible to put some double sided tape on the frame + B7000 glue in order to lift the original glass back and still keep it on the phone?
Cirra92 said:
Wow very nice idea and the mod indeed I am sucker for battery life, so I'm very much interested in actual numbers here, you could provide us some screenshots and further feedback on mod performance.
I've got a question though, since the S8+ battery is 0.1mm thicker, would it be possible to put some double sided tape on the frame + B7000 glue in order to lift the original glass back and still keep it on the phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I might try to compare across two devices with the same Nandroid copy and the less old 2016 battery. I'd probably only test up to 80% to maintain cycle life. May be awhile yet though as I broke a motherboard while transporting for an unrelated replacement screen warranty removal.
B7000 hey, you've done some phone repairs already too? It's 0.1cm, 1mm thicker. B7000 applies as liquid so it won't be raised enough when adhering. Using a case isn't a bad compromise as it affords protection, something I've already always used in the past.
Infy_AsiX said:
I might try to compare across two devices with the same Nandroid copy and the less old 2016 battery. I'd probably only test up to 80% to maintain cycle life. May be awhile yet though as I broke a motherboard while transporting for an unrelated replacement screen warranty removal.
B7000 hey, you've done some phone repairs already too? It's 0.1cm, 1mm thicker. B7000 applies as liquid so it won't be raised enough when adhering. Using a case isn't a bad compromise as it affords protection, something I've already always used in the past.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought some screenshots with the device that has the mod, you don't need to compare with old one Bad luck for the motherboard, had some mishaps too with broken screens while replacing them myself :/
Yeah I took the phone apart 3 times already (though it was to replace the screen only, didn't remove the motherboard) so I'm familiar enough with Z3C disassembly Right, 0.1cm, I meant that but made a stupid mistake, sorry. I've mentioned B7000 since I used that to avoid notorious issues of screen and back glass separating from frame, but didn't use the double sided tape as I don't know how good is it gonna stick, so thought in this case of using maybe a double layer of the tape and glue on top of it. I have a silicone case on it, but would like to keep the original look
Anyway I hope to see what benefit this gives you, as my battery is 2y old now (still going strong though), so it will likely start to give up on me, and I'm interested in this mod
Thanks, and good job once again :victory:
Cirra92 said:
I thought some screenshots with the device that has the mod, you don't need to compare with old one Bad luck for the motherboard, had some mishaps too with broken screens while replacing them myself :/
Yeah I took the phone apart 3 times already (though it was to replace the screen only, didn't remove the motherboard) so I'm familiar enough with Z3C disassembly Right, 0.1cm, I meant that but made a stupid mistake, sorry. I've mentioned B7000 since I used that to avoid notorious issues of screen and back glass separating from frame, but didn't use the double sided tape as I don't know how good is it gonna stick, so thought in this case of using maybe a double layer of the tape and glue on top of it. I have a silicone case on it, but would like to keep the original look
Anyway I hope to see what benefit this gives you, as my battery is 2y old now (still going strong though), so it will likely start to give up on me, and I'm interested in this mod
Thanks, and good job once again :victory:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it's hard to demonstrate battery performance based on how different smartphone power usage can be. On a fresh ROM even an old battery lasts a long time. I'd estimate my basic usage averages around 650mA/h based on the system current draw when the screen is on and being used generally. That's with debloated stock and various power saving mods like kernel tweaks, low brightness and Greenify. Though on the other hand I do have a lot of mods and Xposed going on. I prefer to leave mobile data, wifi and sync always on so that's no help either. Though also my old stock rom does seem faulty, running out of ZRAM even with it greatly increased.
Anyway at ~650mA/h that's still only 5 hours SOT with 3325mAh. 4 hours SOT using a max limit of 80%, around the same as a new stock 2600mAh battery. 3 hours SOT for a degraded battery with 80% capacity left or a new stock set to 80% max limit. 2.5 hours SOT for a degraded 80% remaining with a set 80% max limit. If feels like those last scenarios describe my old batteries. With a theoretical 4000mAh an extra hour again would certainly be welcome. Technically you can get close to that with a S8 Active battery that's 4000mAh 4.4V, judging by phone dimensions between the S8, S8 Active, S8+ it will be smaller and thicker again.
It kind of shows why I don't like comparing battery performance with between user setups. There's too many variables to power consumption on a smartphone. I don't know how people get 8 hours screen time in screenshots but physics dictates the limit. To get 8 hours SOT with 3325mAh, current draw would have to average 415mA, something I can't reach on my setup. Not to mention performing a full deep discharge cycle harming longevity. However it's definitely possible on a fresh ROM with only a few apps, noting that's how reviewer benchmarks operate (untrue to real usage). It kind of brings back the fact that a removable battery is still the only solution to extending run time beyond an insufficient limited capacity without complicating charging and requiring tethering.
I'll try to get a screenshot that indicates what I've mentioned here as confirmation. You could try watching your system current draw using an app too, I see Ampere and AccuBattery often mentioned, I prefer DevCheck or Cool Tool. Then estimate your own capacity health, potential run times and screenshot for interest and knowledge sharing's sake .
Infy_AsiX said:
I think it's hard to demonstrate battery performance based on how different smartphone power usage can be. On a fresh ROM even an old battery lasts a long time. I'd estimate my basic usage averages around 650mA/h based on the system current draw when the screen is on and being used generally. That's with debloated stock and various power saving mods like kernel tweaks, low brightness and Greenify. Though on the other hand I do have a lot of mods and Xposed going on. I prefer to leave mobile data, wifi and sync always on so that's no help either. Though also my old stock rom does seem faulty, running out of ZRAM even with it greatly increased.
Anyway at ~650mA/h that's still only 5 hours SOT with 3325mAh. 4 hours SOT using a max limit of 80%, around the same as a new stock 2600mAh battery. 3 hours SOT for a degraded battery with 80% capacity left or a new stock set to 80% max limit. 2.5 hours SOT for a degraded 80% remaining with a set 80% max limit. If feels like those last scenarios describe my old batteries. With a theoretical 4000mAh an extra hour again would certainly be welcome. Technically you can get close to that with a S8 Active battery that's 4000mAh 4.4V, judging by phone dimensions between the S8, S8 Active, S8+ it will be smaller and thicker again.
It kind of shows why I don't like comparing battery performance with between user setups. There's too many variables to power consumption on a smartphone. I don't know how people get 8 hours screen time in screenshots but physics dictates the limit. To get 8 hours SOT with 3325mAh, current draw would have to average 415mA, something I can't reach on my setup. Not to mention performing a full deep discharge cycle harming longevity. However it's definitely possible on a fresh ROM with only a few apps, noting that's how reviewer benchmarks operate (untrue to real usage). It kind of brings back the fact that a removable battery is still the only solution to extending run time beyond an insufficient limited capacity without complicating charging and requiring tethering.
I'll try to get a screenshot that indicates what I've mentioned here as confirmation. You could try watching your system current draw using an app too, I see Ampere and AccuBattery often mentioned, I prefer DevCheck or Cool Tool. Then estimate your own capacity health, potential run times and screenshot for interest and knowledge sharing's sake .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well yeah I agree on that, it's hard to do it precisely, however I asked because you know your typical usage and maybe could make a rough conclusion on the benefit that this mod gives you, if your current usage does not differ much from the one with original battery. I do not rely much on those app calculations no matter how precise the might be, as I don't rely on reviewer's tests as well, because my usage is specific. I can tell I'm one of those who was reaching 8h of SOT, even 9h on 5.1.1 with specific settings (microG instead of Gapps, global UV, interactive governor tweaks, intelliplug, different LMK values and Amplify, though the last one didn't make much difference) and that battery life was pretty consistent until MM came on board. Now I'm on Carbon 7.1.1 (with same settings) and can average 7h of SOT and always 24-36h of total usage with 2y old battery, which is damn good if you consider that and the fact that I had a lot of full discharge cycles, 100% -> 1%.
Based on your calculations even with your current draw you can get extra 1h of SOT, if I understood right what you wrote, not that SOT is sole indicator of how your battery performs, but it does show a lot in same usage scenario
I have AccuBattery installed from last night, will monitor in upcoming days and share here, just for general info as you said, and to see how much is the % of degradation
Cirra92 said:
I can tell I'm one of those who was reaching 8h of SOT, even 9h on 5.1.1 with specific settings (microG instead of Gapps, global UV, interactive governor tweaks, intelliplug, different LMK values and Amplify, though the last one didn't make much difference) and that battery life was pretty consistent until MM came on board. Now I'm on Carbon 7.1.1 (with same settings) and can average 7h of SOT and always 24-36h of total usage with 2y old battery, which is damn good if you consider that and the fact that I had a lot of full discharge cycles, 100% -> 1%.
Based on your calculations even with your current draw you can get extra 1h of SOT, if I understood right what you wrote, not that SOT is sole indicator of how your battery performs, but it does show a lot in same usage scenario
I have AccuBattery installed from last night, will monitor in upcoming days and share here, just for general info as you said, and to see how much is the % of degradation
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's certainly some impressive power consumption. Was that on stock before N? I've always been stock ROM until now that I'm migrating transitioning to LOS N across two Z3Cs.
I also started trying AccuBattery a few days ago and found it quite useful in a few ways. How it records charging/discharging sessions with mA and mAh data, provides a way to track energy consumption. It's Process CPU usage overlay helped me realise the live wallpaper I had was using 50% of my CPU generally and that DevCheck's overlay is resource intensive. Though AccuB's CPU usage overlay doesn't work on N properly anymore due to SELinux. I found however capacity health estimates are incorrect on my stock ROM, doing some digging and have come up with a basic understanding.
It gets a little complicated so it's confusing and some more testing or other's checking is needed to confirm some specific things. I only had one phone this week so I tested it on my stock ROM with the S8+ battery. The screenshots confirm AccuB recorded close to the expected capacity of the S8+. Note the device was not used in a way to represent a constant drain, the timing is just to demonstrate separation. The screenshots are scattered in content as I was just grabbing the stats not expecting the below 1% occurrence. To understand just look for what's described above each for explanation.
Showing percentage output "50%" at ~3.8V when it should be 70%, 3:35 (pm ).
https://i.imgur.com/qZwnCDy
At ~3.65V it hit "1%" 4:48pm.
https://i.imgur.com/JQrqwAG
~3.6V below "1%" 6:26pm. Around this voltage holds the most energy, why 0.05V lasted so long from the last screenshot.
https://i.imgur.com/ZQTZU29
~3.45V below "1%" 6:59pm
https://i.imgur.com/8kZaWSm
Last screenshot ~3.25V before cutoff at 3.2V 7:07pm.
https://i.imgur.com/16PysRL
Post session stats screenshots. Note the session started at 99% because I forgot to restore AccuBattery's Titanium data until after booting, meaning some mAh is missing from 100% but as seen AccuB tracked close to the expected capacity of the S8+. In regards to SOT in my last post, there's confirmation my old stock ROM averages 600mA with screen on. Note the screen off mA is high because of playing Google Music on phone speakers the entire cycle. Obviously the %/h is false here due to the missing ~1100mAh below 0%.
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AccuB's charging health estimates are constantly incorrect at ~2000mAh. I think this is caused by system battery aging calibration that is set on my old stock ROM. Doesn't matter which whether stock 2014, stock '15 or S8+ '17 battery is used. Dividing a discharge session mAh by percent used gives the same approximate low mAh per percentage. This is why the S8+ battery keeps running at 1% remaining for over another 1000mAh. Doing some searching of the symptom takes me back to the days where third party extended batteries were used, meeting the issue. The main issue is the kernel controls the calibrating capacity percentage fuel gauge chip. For example the Note 4 has a kernel mod fuel gauge chip fix for extended batteries. Another example is the Galaxy S2 could reset it's fuel gauge using root. Here's some old Xperia Arc/Pro fuel chip kernel insight.
I've tried deleting /data/system/batterystats-checkin.bin, batterystats-daily.xml, and batterystats.bin. Removing the battery resets the percentage accordingly but charging and discharging is still incorrect.
Looking at /sys/class/power_supply/bms/batt_aging is "1". With /sys/class/power_supply/bms/device/fcc_new_mah "2313". Or fcc_samples "2380/2156/2268/2268/2366". FCC meaning full charge capacity. This could well be evidence.
I just received a replacement Z3C yesterday to load up LOS N again. I haven't opened it up yet, it's device manufacture tag is 15W04. My nandroid restore has batt_aging "0", fcc_new_mah "0", fcc_samples "0/0/0/0/0/". AccuBattery estimates health near 2600 and dividing mAh by percent usage is approximate. I guess a full cycle is in order to confirm some things. If on AOSP, drivers aren't configured to lower the capacity range, that's less the issue of variability. However the range seems to be hard set to 2600, so the S8+ battery will be running for an extra ~700mAh after 0%.
I found the app CaliBattery is a useful basic way to estimate percentage by voltage. This helps with overcoming stock's aging estimator, though it's notification doesn't update for me on LOS14.1. For example if you received a new official replacement battery but restored a Nandroid backup, you'd have the same battery issues mentioned until enough full cycles are run, recorded and used by the system. On the counter side an old battery on AOSP if it's hard set to 2600 (need test confirmation of this) will turn off before 1%.
One possible workaround is to take voltage readings and calculate percentage using Tasker and write that to system percentage with root. The problem there is efficiency and not updating while screen's off in interest of power. A proper fix requires modifying the relevant fuel gauge configuration in the kernel. I'm not a developer nor have any kernel building experience to do that.
Edit: I stumbled across /sys/module/qpnp_bms/parameters/bms_reset which seems to be a generic kernel setting allowing to reset the percentage. This with Tasker helps with getting the level correct before and after charging. If something like CaliBattery can show approximate level when draining, things seem ok as a workaround. Still needs further testing, and to try on AOSP (the file does exist at least). To be continued...
Infy_AsiX said:
That's certainly some impressive power consumption. Was that on stock before N? I've always been stock ROM until now that I'm migrating transitioning to LOS N across two Z3Cs.
I also started trying AccuBattery a few days ago and found it quite useful in a few ways. How it records charging/discharging sessions with mA and mAh data, provides a way to track energy consumption. It's Process CPU usage overlay helped me realise the live wallpaper I had was using 50% of my CPU generally and that DevCheck's overlay is resource intensive. Though AccuB's CPU usage overlay doesn't work on N properly anymore due to SELinux. I found however capacity health estimates are incorrect on my stock ROM, doing some digging and have come up with a basic understanding.
It gets a little complicated so it's confusing and some more testing or other's checking is needed to confirm some specific things. I only had one phone this week so I tested it on my stock ROM with the S8+ battery. The screenshots confirm AccuB recorded close to the expected capacity of the S8+. Note the device was not used in a way to represent a constant drain, the timing is just to demonstrate separation. The screenshots are scattered in content as I was just grabbing the stats not expecting the below 1% occurrence. To understand just look for what's described above each for explanation.
Showing percentage output "50%" at ~3.8V when it should be 70%, 3:35 (pm ).
https://i.imgur.com/qZwnCDy
At ~3.65V it hit "1%" 4:48pm.
https://i.imgur.com/JQrqwAG
~3.6V below "1%" 6:26pm. Around this voltage holds the most energy, why 0.05V lasted so long from the last screenshot.
https://i.imgur.com/ZQTZU29
~3.45V below "1%" 6:59pm
https://i.imgur.com/8kZaWSm
Last screenshot ~3.25V before cutoff at 3.2V 7:07pm.
https://i.imgur.com/16PysRL
Post session stats screenshots. Note the session started at 99% because I forgot to restore AccuBattery's Titanium data until after booting, meaning some mAh is missing from 100% but as seen AccuB tracked close to the expected capacity of the S8+. In regards to SOT in my last post, there's confirmation my old stock ROM averages 600mA with screen on. Note the screen off mA is high because of playing Google Music on phone speakers the entire cycle. Obviously the %/h is false here due to the missing ~1100mAh below 0%.
AccuB's charging health estimates are constantly incorrect at ~2000mAh. I think this is caused by system battery aging calibration that is set on my old stock ROM. Doesn't matter which whether stock 2014, stock '15 or S8+ '17 battery is used. Dividing a discharge session mAh by percent used gives the same approximate low mAh per percentage. This is why the S8+ battery keeps running at 1% remaining for over another 1000mAh. Doing some searching of the symptom takes me back to the days where third party extended batteries were used, meeting the issue. The main issue is the kernel controls the calibrating capacity percentage fuel gauge chip. For example the Note 4 has a kernel mod fuel gauge chip fix for extended batteries. Another example is the Galaxy S2 could reset it's fuel gauge using root. Here's some old Xperia Arc/Pro fuel chip kernel insight.
I've tried deleting /data/system/batterystats-checkin.bin, batterystats-daily.xml, and batterystats.bin. Removing the battery resets the percentage accordingly but charging and discharging is still incorrect.
Looking at /sys/class/power_supply/bms/batt_aging is "1". With /sys/class/power_supply/bms/device/fcc_new_mah "2313". Or fcc_samples "2380/2156/2268/2268/2366". FCC meaning full charge capacity. This could well be evidence.
I just received a replacement Z3C yesterday to load up LOS N again. I haven't opened it up yet, it's device manufacture tag is 15W04. My nandroid restore has batt_aging "0", fcc_new_mah "0", fcc_samples "0/0/0/0/0/". AccuBattery estimates health near 2600 and dividing mAh by percent usage is approximate. I guess a full cycle is in order to confirm some things. If on AOSP, drivers aren't configured to lower the capacity range, that's less the issue of variability. However the range seems to be hard set to 2600, so the S8+ battery will be running for an extra ~700mAh after 0%.
I found the app CaliBattery is a useful basic way to estimate percentage by voltage. This helps with overcoming stock's aging estimator, though it's notification doesn't update for me on LOS14.1. For example if you received a new official replacement battery but restored a Nandroid backup, you'd have the same battery issues mentioned until enough full cycles are run, recorded and used by the system. On the counter side an old battery on AOSP if it's hard set to 2600 (need test confirmation of this) will turn off before 1%.
One possible workaround is to take voltage readings and calculate percentage using Tasker and write that to system percentage with root. The problem there is efficiency and not updating while screen's off in interest of power. A proper fix requires modifying the relevant fuel gauge configuration in the kernel. I'm not a developer nor have any kernel building experience to do that.
Edit: I stumbled across /sys/module/qpnp_bms/parameters/bms_reset which seems to be a Sony kernel setting allowing to reset the percentage. This with Tasker helps with getting the level correct before and after charging. If something like CaliBattery can show approximate level when draining, things seem ok as a workaround. Still needs further testing, and to try on AOSP (the file does exist at least). To be continued...
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Click to collapse
That was on stock, the most efficient one was LP, the last 5.1.1, I got constantly 8+ hours of SOT, and even 9+ in half of those charges probably, but as soon as I flashed the first stable official MM build and then went back to LP (in the same month even) the battery life dropped significantly, and the only thing I remember that could have changed was the bootloader, literally nothing else, but I doubt it has anything to do with battery life.
You can see the screenshots here just after flashing the 5.1.1 back then. -> https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=68155846&postcount=16
And also I have observed the battery stats through AccuB, you can check some on attachment shots, and if measurements are valid my screen power draw is 350-400 mA and the battery health is reported to be at ~2400ma or ~92% which is actually more than I expected And as you can see, the standby drain is unusually high, been that way since I flashed the rom, and I'm sure it has to be lower, but will tackle that when O gets more bugs fixed. All of this is on Carbon N rom by Myself5.
I can see that you've done your homework extensively, which is impressive Now, for the battery capacity coding part, I'm not sure if its hard coded as I've used my phone just a month ago until 1% and it didn't die where it should because the battery capacity is lower. Don't know about the way to reset the battery chip (or gauge) since it has been said that its self regulated, unlike the Galaxy S2 as you've mentioned and I owned it as well and done that. It might level out through a number of successive charging cycles, try to load it with clean rom and give it a go, why would they hard code the capacity, that's weird, but that's beyond my knowledge anyway.
Cirra92 said:
And also I have observed the battery stats through AccuB, you can check some on attachment shots, and if measurements are valid my screen power draw is 350-400 mA and the battery health is reported to be at ~2400ma or ~92% which is actually more than I expected And as you can see, the standby drain is unusually high, been that way since I flashed the rom, and I'm sure it has to be lower, but will tackle that when O gets more bugs fixed. All of this is on Carbon N rom by Myself5.
I can see that you've done your homework extensively, which is impressive Now, for the battery capacity coding part, I'm not sure if its hard coded as I've used my phone just a month ago until 1% and it didn't die where it should because the battery capacity is lower. Don't know about the way to reset the battery chip (or gauge) since it has been said that its self regulated, unlike the Galaxy S2 as you've mentioned and I owned it as well and done that. It might level out through a number of successive charging cycles, try to load it with clean rom and give it a go, why would they hard code the capacity, that's weird, but that's beyond my knowledge anyway.
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Click to collapse
I think AccuBattery's health estimate is unreliable after noticing how it seems to report by the ROM's provided mAh/% rather than usage. It's discharging mA rate and history total discharge however are useful as they seem to track mAh usage current. So I think doing a full cycle noting the history's total mAh thus avoiding any kernel/ROM BMS configuration interference may be the only way to check.
I'll get around to testing the S8+ battery on AOSP soon. I ran this replacement Z3C on LOS almost flat but aging stats in /battery haven't changed. I guess the BMS aging stats are hidden by not linking to output like Sony's stock. I made up my own CaliBattery style notification through Tasker and have BMS reset on every % change when charging. So far it looks to be a workable workaround.
If some close to three year old batteries do still have 90% health, the batteries are actually good after all. My first two Z3C batteries were swollen under a year, but I lacked knowledge on maintaining them back then. Well that and the design problem of overheating during gaming and charging at 100% to keep topped up due to too slow charging without a swappable battery. The reasons why I've ended up learning all this, modding a removable feature with a custom charging profile on Tasker.
@Infy_AsiX Hey man how is your battery mod doing? Is it still in life?
Did you manage to track where is that battery capacity coded, if it is anyway?
Cirra92 said:
@Infy_AsiX Hey man how is your battery mod doing? Is it still in life?
Did you manage to track where is that battery capacity coded, if it is anyway?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hehe are you checking if I experienced a lithium-ion battery fire?
I didn't delve further than previously discussed as by workaround the charging and estimation is functioning well enough. To change the charger and battery functions is kernel code and would require some understanding to work.
The Z1C Ringke Rearth Fusion case fits like a glove with the extra mm for the plastic spacers I install too. Looks nice and cool while working well. The Z3C is still my preferred phone size form factor and I need it as a bike computer with smartphone extras. For multimedia and gaming consumption I picked up a ZTE Axon 7 to complement.
Sent from my ZTE Axon 7 using XDA Labs
Infy_AsiX said:
Hehe are you checking if I experienced a lithium-ion battery fire?
I didn't delve further than previously discussed as by workaround the charging and estimation is functioning well enough. To change the charger and battery functions is kernel code and would require some understanding to work.
The Z1C Ringke Rearth Fusion case fits like a glove with the extra mm for the plastic spacers I install too. Looks nice and cool while working well. The Z3C is still my preferred phone size form factor and I need it as a bike computer with smartphone extras. For multimedia and gaming consumption I picked up a ZTE Axon 7 to complement.
Sent from my ZTE Axon 7 using XDA Labs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha no, I thought maybe you had any kind of issue with it and just gave it a good swing through the window
So the battery level reading did not level out with certain number of cycles, at least to a certain amount? I thought maybe that it would get recorded by system and the kernel would adapt that accordingly, since my best guess is that it's a dynamic reading, rather than pre-set capacity, as you've mentioned yourself.
Anyway, if I go that road, and I'm considering that seriously as of late, I would like to explore the ways to attach the back panel and keeping a stock look. Where did you put those plastic spacers?
Good choice on that Axon 7
Cirra92 said:
Haha no, I thought maybe you had any kind of issue with it and just gave it a good swing through the window
So the battery level reading did not level out with certain number of cycles, at least to a certain amount? I thought maybe that it would get recorded by system and the kernel would adapt that accordingly, since my best guess is that it's a dynamic reading, rather than pre-set capacity, as you've mentioned yourself.
Anyway, if I go that road, and I'm considering that seriously as of late, I would like to explore the ways to attach the back panel and keeping a stock look. Where did you put those plastic spacers?
Good choice on that Axon 7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It may have adjusted the Full Charge Capacity back to what the Z3C considers a full new stock 2600Mah. The purpose of that is just to recalibrate the fuel gauge percentage outputs for accuracy throughout the range to account for degradation I think. I recall something like a couple bits of code mentioning 2600 in the kernel battery somewhere back when I did some peeking. The kernel defines the battery size and the related BMS functions and calculates on that premise.
Anyway it's stock feature. I moved onto AOSP so can't say how stock would've exactly responded except as I speculate above. AOSP doesn't implement the feature, I can assume without it, earlier shutdowns or rapid unsmooth drops in percentages can occur on degraded batteries. Think of Apple's degraded battery CPU throttling controversy, it's a new issue because of greater peak power demand of modern performance and combine that with how battery voltage can spike low due to this. I've learnt more about this by investigating how Axon 7 users with degraded batteries are experiencing throttling too under a Qualcomm BCL enabled feature. I made a thread about it here: https://forum.xda-developers.com/axon-7/how-to/degraded-battery-bcl-device-lag-t3752545
The plastic spacers are in the last photo in the album. I'm talking about the ones to allow an air gap for lowering heat stress without these a normal Z3C case will fit well. I could probably update a photo, I do use a couple plastic spacers to hold the battery alignment too. The battery itself is obviously thicker than stock so straight installing the back panel won't work well. A case is easiest as no back panel is required, if you prefer the look, you could use a clear back case and just place the back panel before it.
To recap the battery itself functions fully and charges fine. Without kernel fixes the percentage will be 0% when there's the extra energy left. Using an alternative app to provide a custom estimated percentage based on voltage is a way to see remaining power. I made my own Tasker profiles to custom calculate displaying a notification that also considers plug state.
Sent from my ZTE Axon 7 using XDA Labs
Infy_AsiX said:
It may have adjusted the Full Charge Capacity back to what the Z3C considers a full new stock 2600Mah. The purpose of that is just to recalibrate the fuel gauge percentage outputs for accuracy throughout the range to account for degradation I think. I recall something like a couple bits of code mentioning 2600 in the kernel battery somewhere back when I did some peeking. The kernel defines the battery size and the related BMS functions and calculates on that premise.
Anyway it's stock feature. I moved onto AOSP so can't say how stock would've exactly responded except as I speculate above. AOSP doesn't implement the feature, I can assume without it, earlier shutdowns or rapid unsmooth drops in percentages can occur on degraded batteries. Think of Apple's degraded battery CPU throttling controversy, it's a new issue because of greater peak power demand of modern performance and combine that with how battery voltage can spike low due to this. I've learnt more about this by investigating how Axon 7 users with degraded batteries are experiencing throttling too under a Qualcomm BCL enabled feature. I made a thread about it here: https://forum.xda-developers.com/axon-7/how-to/degraded-battery-bcl-device-lag-t3752545
The plastic spacers are in the last photo in the album. I'm talking about the ones to allow an air gap for lowering heat stress without these a normal Z3C case will fit well. I could probably update a photo, I do use a couple plastic spacers to hold the battery alignment too. The battery itself is obviously thicker than stock so straight installing the back panel won't work well. A case is easiest as no back panel is required, if you prefer the look, you could use a clear back case and just place the back panel before it.
To recap the battery itself functions fully and charges fine. Without kernel fixes the percentage will be 0% when there's the extra energy left. Using an alternative app to provide a custom estimated percentage based on voltage is a way to see remaining power. I made my own Tasker profiles to custom calculate displaying a notification that also considers plug state.
Sent from my ZTE Axon 7 using XDA Labs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the always extensive and in-depth reply
Well that does make sense to have it embedded in kernel code somewhere.
I am on AOSP as well, almost a year already, but I haven't noticed any lags or slowdowns on low battery levels (low voltage levels) even down to 1%, and my battery will be 3 years old in June. Either the system has adapted to degradation or my battery didn't degrade much, which I really doubt since I had a lot of 100% -> 0% cycles and the battery was under high CPU and temperature stress in a lot of occasions.
As for the spacers, yes I forgot the pictures, I've seen them again. Now, I want to try and fit the original back panel, I know the GS8+ battery is 1mm thicker, however right now when I glue my back panel so that it has tight fit on the frame, it is actually "intruding" in the back of the phone, and it's not level with edges of the side frame, it's rather inside. The idea is to use let's say two layers of a double sided tape directly on the frame to compensate for that 1mm, apply the B7000 on top of that and on side walls of the frame as much as possible and place the back panel. I hope you understood since my english might not be up to that level
Since it's my only phone atm I would like to keep it decent looking as much as possible
My normal usage of the phone does not involve heavy tasks at all so temperature is not my concern, that's why I want to use the original back panel to close it down.
And yes I remember you are using Tasker to read the actual voltage level, although it would "hurt" my eyes to look at that non-linear stock battery indicator, I would have to do it as well
Please, could somebody share his voltage/percentage curve for tasker? And which system interface did you use to update the battery percentage? And did somebody of you test how effecient tasker does handle events? It would be not so usefull if it is taking additional 200mA during 10h runtime for event handling and system updates.
Did anybody find out how to change the charging overvoltage cutoff and the shutdown voltage? I would like to stress my battery a little bit more to get every thing out of my 44g for the first 50 to 100 cycles until it gets replaced.
A custom charging cutoff voltage and shutdown trigger voltage would be the best solution for a lightweight outdoor navigation device with 30-50 cycles per year. My device is so highly specialized that I did even remove the cameras and exchange the glass backpannel with a 0.25mm thin carbon pannel.
Kind Regards
Falco