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Looking good, starting at $469 too...
http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/22/samsung-galaxy-tab-8-9-and-new-galaxy-tab-10-1-thinner-than-the/
I think the original has been left behind, no mention of updates for it ?
Wonder if the new 3G models will have phone thats the one thing about the current tab that sets it apart.
The current 7" fits in my coat pocket perfect, so 8.9" and 10.1" are not of interest to me.
If nothing else, hopefully they'll release later 7" Tabs that are thinner.
Then again, if there was an extended battery option for these larger tabs to get a bigger back case but another 6 hours, I'd probably be fine with the extra size/weight too.
All about choice, and we're certainly getting it.
(but yeah, I totally prefer the existing size, the best Tablet to have is the one with you, and I can't imaging lugging a 10" tablet around with me as easily as the 7" models)
They both interest me and good potential upgrades over my current tab !! I'd pick it up without any hesitation - although I'd prefer a stock honeycomb UI over the TouchWiz crap :\
I wished they make another 7", although google doesn't like honeycomb running on anything smaller than an 8" screen. Best part about my tab is putting it in my back pocket.
noobporter said:
I wished they make another 7", although google doesn't like honeycomb running on anything smaller than an 8" screen. Best part about my tab is putting it in my back pocket.
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Click to collapse
Google doesn't want that?
HTC's Evo View 4G is getting Honeycomb, and it's a 7" with specs similar to the HTC Flyer.
I waited to see what they had to announce today......then I went out and got my new Tab. The others don't fit in pocket and wifi only prices are ok, but I want 3G for on the go.
codewisp said:
Google doesn't want that?
HTC's Evo View 4G is getting Honeycomb, and it's a 7" with specs similar to the HTC Flyer.
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Click to collapse
+1, the acer iconia A100/A101 and i think the MeMo from Asus are both running honneycomb aswell.
After they have left behind the original model so early (I bought mine only 2-3 months ago!!!), I won't ever look again at any Samsung tablet, so I don't care too much what they showed yesterday.
Is not the fact that we won't have Honeycomb (officialy, I'm quite sure that the developers will get it fully working, because the device is totally capable). Is the fact that it seems that they forgot they ever had an original Galaxy Tab. They don't even say that support will be discontinued, although we all know it.
At least Apple says "ok guys, you had support for your 3G for two years, is time to move up if you want further upgrades". Samsung throws a device to the market and then they change their mind and say "to hell with early adopters".
I will keep my original Tab until I feel I need a change (because it's working fine and it does what I need). But when the need for a new device comes, I will surely look out of Samsung catalogue, no matter what they offer. Let it be Xoom2 or iPad3 or whatever, but they will not "cheat" me again.
EDV11 said:
After they have left behind the original model so early (I bought mine only 2-3 months ago!!!), I won't ever look again at any Samsung tablet, so I don't care too much what they showed yesterday
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Click to collapse
How do you *know* they've left the original Tab behind?
Last rumour I heard Samsung said that we would get an update to at least Gingerbread.
Regards,
Dave
Bought it one week ago knowing that the future support will be uncertain. But, as I've read these days, the Gingerbread seems to be a sure bet for the first Tab.
Someone from Samsung was asked about this in MWC in Barcelona. This is the translation
There will ever be Honeycomb for Galaxy Tab?
No. The 7" Galaxy Tab does not comply with the necesary specs to run Honeycomb. The problem is related to the resolution and not the size, as many says.
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Click to collapse
As we all have seen, some developers made it to run already, so the resolution is not an issue.
The new tabs look really nice to me although I'm happy with the Gtab & don't need anything bigger. Knowing Samsung the hardware like the screen will be very nice & we have XDA for the software side. Not sure why they insist on touchwiz although it doesn't look too bad as far as skins go. Would be a shame if using an alternative launcher lost the cool new features of honeycomb like the status menu & new notification bar.
Overall I think we'll soon have a clear leader in the tab market that's android based. Apple really need something special with iOS 5 to compete.
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
They look....Interesting.
the future is coming...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtqXLGPzVMk&feature=player_embedded
Tab 7" won't be abandoned, because it's at the limit of being mobile, but also not too small like phones. I usually bring my tab when I'm jogging, see how far I already run and then while drinking coffee, using it for browsing or swyping. It is the perfect size. I can't imagine bringing 9 or 10 while I'm jogging or anything else outside office or house without attracting too much attention and it fits my back pocket or my suite just fine! For phone or messaging I have my bb 9780 for massive and fast texting without worrying it's gonna break soon as I use it pretty rough.
I can imagine tab 7"with dual core, amoled display for 30% more battery life, 4g, thinner design, more lightweight, matured android os, more apps, better camera, more battery life, it would be perfect!
if that not going to happen, I'm jumping to playbook.
Need advice on which tablet to get.
I can't seem to make the decision! (It's like picking paint, once you've seen so many, you cant decide...)
I've figured it's between the:
Galaxy Tab 10.1 (P7500)
HTC Jetstream (although not available in Australia - Not sure how i'll tackle this)
Asus Transformer 3G
Can anyone who has used all three (or the transformer/galaxy tab) let me know how it feels, response wise?
I will be using it for business also (meetings, typing notes, etc).
I need 3G and at least 32GB storage (will go 64GB with Samsung 10.1)
Do not expect people who chose SGT 10.1 to recommend other tablets if they decided SGT was best for them.
I had similar choices and chose Samsung, a lot of threads to read for reasons.
Yeah, on this Forum, SGT10.1 will be the choice.
There really is little difference in terms of performance, since all the internals are more or less the same (Tegra2, 1GB RAM, Honeycomb 3.1). As for notetaking you have to go for HTC Flyer (7 inch) or wait for the Galaxy Note (5 inch).
For me, it was the form factor - slimmer, lighter, and ergonomically better (especially compared to the Transformer) that sold me to a SGT10.1. Then the brighter screen was a plus. If you cherish mobility, thumbs down SGT10.1.e
I can talk about the Jetstream and the G-Tab. I'll start with the Jetstream. It's extremely well made and Sense on it is pretty cool. It has a ton of well-done widgets and lots of options for personalization. Now for the bad. It weighs a ton, is oddly shaped which makes it tedious to hold, and HTC did a crap job with the video implementation and codecs. It's been out for months and there's still no accessories for it. It's fast at UI navigation, on par with the G-Tab at browsing, and worse at video because of the crap job HTC did. It's also insanely expensive. I had one for nine days and returned it.
When asking people about the G-Tab, you also need to ask how they use it. I use it to consume content, mostly while traveling. I use Plex and PlayOn for video streaming, Rhapsody for remote and local music, web browsing, e-mail, newspapers and magazines, productivity apps, and some light gaming. For that, it's teriffic. Samsung does the best of all the manufacturers with audio and video drivers including DRM support. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd give overall performance an 8. It stutters and bogs occasionally but it's random and occurs less than 5% of the time. It's thin, light, has a gorgeous (if somewhat oversaturated) display, and has a lot of pretty cool optional accessories.
A lot of people will tell you to wait because there's better around the corner. The only possibilities in 2011 are the Toshiba AT200 and Transformer2. The Xoom 2 might also appear before the end of the year. They'll have better processors and maybe ICS but are expected to have the same resolution. Samsung's launching the 7+ and 7.7 in November/December with 3.2 vs. ICS so who knows what the other new tablets will have.
Others can discuss the Transformer but I'd definately pick the G-Tab vs. the Jetstream. If you can wait until December or Q1 2012 you might have better options but for now (IMHO) the G-Tab's the best of what's out there in the 10.1 category.
BarryH_GEG said:
I can talk about the Jetstream and the G-Tab. I'll start with the Jetstream. It's extremely well made and Sense on it is pretty cool. It has a ton of well-done widgets and lots of options for personalization. Now for the bad. It weighs a ton, is oddly shaped which makes it tedious to hold, and HTC did a crap job with the video implementation and codecs. It's been out for months and there's still no accessories for it. It's fast at UI navigation, on par with the G-Tab at browsing, and worse at video because of the crap job HTC did. It's also insanely expensive. I had one for nine days and returned it.
When asking people about the G-Tab, you also need to ask how they use it. I use it to consume content, mostly while traveling. I use Plex and PlayOn for video streaming, Rhapsody for remote and local music, web browsing, e-mail, newspapers and magazines, productivity apps, and some light gaming. For that, it's teriffic. Samsung does the best of all the manufacturers with audio and video drivers including DRM support. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd give overall performance an 8. It stutters and bogs occasionally but it's random and occurs less than 5% of the time. It's thin, light, has a gorgeous (if somewhat oversaturated) display, and has a lot of pretty cool optional accessories.
A lot of people will tell you to wait because there's better around the corner. The only possibilities in 2011 are the Toshiba AT200 and Transformer2. The Xoom 2 might also appear before the end of the year. They'll have better processors and maybe ICS but are expected to have the same resolution. Samsung's launching the 7+ and 7.7 in November/December with 3.2 vs. ICS so who knows what the other new tablets will have.
Others can discuss the Transformer but I'd definately pick the G-Tab vs. the Jetstream. If you can wait until December or Q1 2012 you might have better options but for now (IMHO) the G-Tab's the best of what's out there in the 10.1 category.
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Great comparison! - Quick question (I could probably find this out if i searched)... Will the Galaxy 10.1 get ICS in the future? I know some say might say yes and some might say no, but has anything been announced saying GT10.1 will get ICS?
Me personally...I make a list of devices to choose from (like you did), then I look around XDA for the device with the best support, the most activity, the nicest ROMs, and stuff like that. I was between the Transformer and the 7510, and I chose the Galaxy. Loving it. Not sure how the 7500 holds up, but from what I know, I'd go with the Galaxy.
(Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of good out there for the transformer too)
It's probably 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
Yianni said:
Great comparison! - Quick question (I could probably find this out if i searched)... Will the Galaxy 10.1 get ICS in the future? I know some say might say yes and some might say no, but has anything been announced saying GT10.1 will get ICS?
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Click to collapse
I guess Samsung could go one of two ways:
1) Introduce a G-Tab 10.1+ with a better processor, higher res display, and ICS leaving everything else pretty much the same. In the process they'd leave the original Tabs on 3.X. This would obviously piss all us early adpoters off enormously.
2) Since they're still rolling out the 8.9 and 10.1 in a lot of the world and its always been the tablet priced closest to the iPad, they introduce ICS as soon as possible to improve the user experience (existing and new) to continue to try to steal Apple's marketshare. This would make existing customers happy and allow them to get more mileage out of their investment in the 8.9 and 10.1.
Obviously, I'm rooting for number two and Samsung's always been fairly customer-centric so number one wouldn't fit their historical behavior. But, to answer your question, there's been no commitment by Samsung to upgrade either the 8.9 or 10.1 to ICS. The 7+ and 7.7 are supposed to launch on 3.2 and there's been no mention of ICS for them either. The Toshiba AT200 is launching with 3.2 and I don't think anything's been confirmed for the Transformer2 yet. From what I've read, both Honeycomb and GB apps have to updated to work on ICS. Even if ICS was released tomorrow, there's tons of work app developers and the OEM's have to do. So I'm guessing its first appearance on a tablet will be later rather than sooner. If I were a manufacturer I'd see how the Nexus Prime faired in the wild before I started migrating devices to ICS. Historically, Google devices (Nexus, et. al.) have always come out with a new OS months before its generally released/available. It's due out this month or next which could mean Q1 before other devices start to appear or get upgraded. Bottom line is your guess is as good as mine.
How about the OIL SLICK issue on the sgs tab
I just made this decision and got the tab 10.1
Reviews pretty consistently call it the current best. It is slimmer and lighter by far then the other two you mentioned. etc etc.
I knew about the oil slick, but from what I have read in hear I think Samsung has a fix for it. So I don't think new models will have the issue. I think B6 and B7 have the issue, and the one I just got two days ago was a B9. I think the number indicates the month, i.e. june, july, sept.
So my vote was Tab 10.1. To compensate for the lack of sd, I got the 32gb version. Yep, their plan worked..
raufhon said:
How about the OIL SLICK issue on the sgs tab
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Click to collapse
I've never had it nor known anyone to have it.
raufhon said:
How about the OIL SLICK issue on the sgs tab
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Click to collapse
Few early devices had them, I had it on mine but Samsung replaced the screen under warranty and no issues after that. So if you are buying now you should be fine since Samsung would have fixed the issue in the new batches.
I bought a Nexus 7 for my son and I've been dealing with software issues since day 1. Apps crash regularly, when I hit the home button, many games don't stop (you can hear the music play in the background), web browser stops for 1-3 seconds occasionally, and this morning when I clicked on Settings it was frozen for 10 seconds and came up with "Settings is not responding". Even though I hit "Wait", it rebooted itself.
If I compare this 3-day old device to my highly skinned Samsung Note 10.1, I'd go with the SGN any day, because not one app crash or random reboot happened so far (I've had it for more than a month). Please note that I'm running the exact apps/games on the SGN. When I had a Galaxy Tab 2 10.1" and 7" in the past, the experience was the same (problem free).
The tablet that I had before SGN was a Toshiba Excite 10.1 running a stock ICS (Toshiba only added few of their apps, that was it). It was a nightmare as well. Web browser crash, frozen screen, random reboots. etc. happened all the time.
The root of the problems could be hardware related, but both Nexus/Asus and Toshiba with stock Android had numerous similar issues. At the end of the day, with my limited experience, I'm a non-stock Android believer, not to mention all the extras Samsung built on top of stock Android (e.g., multiscreen, mini apps, etc). Yes, I do understand that updates are delayed with non-stock Android versions, but I'd rather use a problem-free device and wait a little longer for an update.
I agree with you on the Nexus, mine is stock and even launching apps like Wallet my tablet freezes almost everytime. I don't think it's a hardware issue, I think it's more a software issue. As for as the GN101, so far I have found it solid without the need for any ROM changes at all.
The obsession with stock came from a time when devices were underpowered and didn't have enough RAM. Manufacturer overlays really bogged down performance. So the XDA devs went on a quest to offer AOSP/AOKP alternatives. Back then, going naked really did improve device usability.
With quad-core processors and 1.5/2 GB of RAM becoming the new standard the overlays really don't interfere the way they used to. They also add a lot of value with additional audio and video codec support, faster alternative toggles and menus, more functions added to apps (EG: camera), usability features (EG: SmartStay), and better integration between apps which helps people be more productive.
You'll hear people talking about being "bloat free." By the time someone's done loading third party versions (sometimes multiples because one won't work for everything) of apps that come pre-installed they have more crap on their device than the OEM version. I truly wonder if a lot of people even use their devices to do anything. You see post after post about how lag free their transitions are but you never hear them talk about actually using any of the apps they have installed or trying to accomplish a specific task.
As for your situation with the N7 I think a lot of the issues are h/w related. You don't hear people on the SGS3 or Note II forum running in to similar issues. There are h/w related issues on Asus' premium tablets so if anything their budget tablet shouldn't be expected to perform any better.
Mainstream shoppers like overlays. In the Apple case it came out that Samsung sold only 500K Galaxy Nexi. That's a pretty embarrassing number considering all the chatter about "pure Google" and the cult following Nexus devices are supposed to have.
Definitely not SW issue. Vanilla android is as stable as it gets. It can only get worse from there. The nexus 7 is an Asus device, which are known for i/o issues as described. The reason aosp is always 'buggy' on (insert device) is because alot of modifications are needed to get it running on most devices, making for a possible unstable build. Manufacturer's skins absolutely slow down the device, but with the newest gen dual/quad core processors, the newer devices run pretty darn fast stock...
Try cm10 on the note and you'll see how much more efficient it is... But you'll also see minor issues like camera not working
Sent from my GT-N8013 using xda app-developers app
prenedo said:
Definitely not SW issue. Vanilla android is as stable as it gets. It can only get worse from there. The nexus 7 is an Asus device, which are known for i/o issues as described. The reason aosp is always 'buggy' on (insert device) is because alot of modifications are needed to get it running on most devices, making for a possible unstable build. Manufacturer's skins absolutely slow down the device, but with the newest gen dual/quad core processors, the newer devices run pretty darn fast stock...
Try cm10 on the note and you'll see how much more efficient it is... But you'll also see minor issues like camera not working
Sent from my GT-N8013 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess I don't understand the point "Vanilla android is as stable as it gets........The reason aosp is always 'buggy' on (insert device) is because alot of modifications are needed to get it running on most devices, making for a possible unstable build". If each manufacturer needs to modify it to run it on their device, then which device runs the "vanilla" android?
tenderidol said:
I guess I don't understand the point "Vanilla android is as stable as it gets........The reason aosp is always 'buggy' on (insert device) is because alot of modifications are needed to get it running on most devices, making for a possible unstable build". If each manufacturer needs to modify it to run it on their device, then which device runs the "vanilla" android?
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Click to collapse
Nexus devices. Manufacturers add more functionality and appearance to stock android (ie, TW, sense, blur) which present more of an opportunity for errors/bugs.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda app-developers app
prenedo said:
Nexus devices. Manufacturers add more functionality and appearance to stock android (ie, TW, sense, blur) which present more of an opportunity for errors/bugs.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's ironic, because I'm having issues with a Nexus device while the SGN with Touchwiz works without any issues.
tenderidol said:
It's ironic, because I'm having issues with a Nexus device while the SGN with Touchwiz works without any issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The theory of Nexus is much different than the practice. Different radios and even bands make it as fragmented as a skinned device.
Well I have a note 10.1 and nexus 7. Note is completely stock and runs flawless. My nexus 7 is running stock rom with custom kernel. That runs flawless also. Even before custom kernel, superstock, it ran extremely well without any issues for me. My nexus 7 never had issues OP described. Nexus 7 is stable as a mofo never had any issue with that Asus tablet. So lets not go there with since its an Asus, its automatically bad/defective or whatever..lol.
I also have a SG3 which is great superStock.
tenderidol said:
I bought a Nexus 7 for my son and I've been dealing with software issues since day 1. Apps crash regularly, when I hit the home button, many games don't stop (you can hear the music play in the background), web browser stops for 1-3 seconds occasionally, and this morning when I clicked on Settings it was frozen for 10 seconds and came up with "Settings is not responding". Even though I hit "Wait", it rebooted itself.
If I compare this 3-day old device to my highly skinned Samsung Note 10.1, I'd go with the SGN any day, because not one app crash or random reboot happened so far (I've had it for more than a month). Please note that I'm running the exact apps/games on the SGN. When I had a Galaxy Tab 2 10.1" and 7" in the past, the experience was the same (problem free).
The tablet that I had before SGN was a Toshiba Excite 10.1 running a stock ICS (Toshiba only added few of their apps, that was it). It was a nightmare as well. Web browser crash, frozen screen, random reboots. etc. happened all the time.
The root of the problems could be hardware related, but both Nexus/Asus and Toshiba with stock Android had numerous similar issues. At the end of the day, with my limited experience, I'm a non-stock Android believer, not to mention all the extras Samsung built on top of stock Android (e.g., multiscreen, mini apps, etc). Yes, I do understand that updates are delayed with non-stock Android versions, but I'd rather use a problem-free device and wait a little longer for an update.
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Click to collapse
Try vanilla android on a samsung device like the galaxy nexus and you will have a very different experience. Asus devices are fine once some tweaks have been made, but my tf300 was extremely sluggish on stock. Just got the note and it blows the doors off my tf300 in every category except the note does not have jellybean yet and the tf300 does.
demandarin said:
My nexus 7 never had issues OP described.
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Click to collapse
Here's what I've learned by researching IO on Asus' tablets. People who have no issues and people *****ing about lag etc. are both right. It depends on what you're doing with the device. People with a lot of syncs running in the background or that have multiple apps or a single multithreaded app going that create concurrent processes are more likely to experience issues. Here's a post from someone I know well talking about it. I actually shipped him his N7 from the States. If he says it lags, it lags. His post is in a 67 page thread aptly entitled "The LAG Thread."
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1776538
There's another recently discovered issue that occurs when available storage drops below 3GB. Performance hits the wall. So one or both are probably causing OP's issues.
http://www.gottabemobile.com/2012/09/17/nexus-7-performance-issues/
Well I have a galaxy nexus and ever since jellybean its smoother than ever, sometimes even better than on my note 10.1 except if its on cm 10
Just look at the size of the ROMs cm10 is 150 mb while for example high on android is 750 mb, there's definitely a difference performance wise
If you ran stock JB on Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 and then the skinned JB (when it finally drops) and you'd see a difference I'm sure. Not AS much since this tablet is a beast, but you'd see improvements.
If vanilla android was the issue, skinning it could only make it worse. They are still utilizing all of the code of vanilla android, and adding their own stuff to it. That can only bog things down. It does on every device I've ever seen.
Finally, I've never heard or see these issues on the Nexus 7. Sounds like you got a lemon. Everything I've heard is that it's the most fluid tablet to date.
Sent from my EVO using xda app-developers app
PsiPhiDan said:
If you ran stock JB on Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 and then the skinned JB (when it finally drops) and you'd see a difference I'm sure. Not AS much since this tablet is a beast, but you'd see improvements.
If vanilla android was the issue, skinning it could only make it worse. They are still utilizing all of the code of vanilla android, and adding their own stuff to it. That can only bog things down. It does on every device I've ever seen.
Finally, I've never heard or see these issues on the Nexus 7. Sounds like you got a lemon. Everything I've heard is that it's the most fluid tablet to date.
Sent from my EVO using xda app-developers app
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Click to collapse
You should visit the Nexus 7 sub-forum (especially the Lag thread) for an alternate view.
The 'obsession' with AOSP stems from a Linux purity thrust. Most OEMs do NOT release their mods to android back as open source contributions, which technically, under the gnu gpl, they should. Samsung-skinned android OS is kind of like Linux mint as opposed to Linux Fedora. Fedora comes out of the box with ABSOLUTELY NO proprietary software, whereas Linux mint ships with flash, Google search (which is NOT open source). So when you run Konqueror (stock KDE browser) you have to download and choose Google as your search engine. Otherwise, it uses duckduckgo, which I prefer..I use ddg on my android tablets even.... I just don't like my search history being chronicled.
AOSP was started in this spirit, which is why gApps are separate and have to be flashed independedntly. Check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjaC8Pq9-V0&feature=youtube_gdata_player for more information, and a ton of geeky fun.
GT-P6800
GT-N8013
The 'obsession' is because in the past vanilla Android was clearly faster/more stable than skinned versions. If I compare the Galaxy S to the Nexus S, touchwiz was a slow laggy joke while vanilla Android outperformed it in every way.
Add to that much faster updates, which was much more important as Android matured, and a stellar dev community, and you have a group of people who have preferred Nexus devices over any other.
It has also been easier to flash Nexus devices, and they are virtually impossible to brick. You dont need to use anything like Kies/Odin/Heimdall etc, just install the Android SDK and use fastboot/ADB to set it up, then off you go. Unlocking a bootloader is a single command you use once, and you dont need to flash new bootloaders for updated versions of Android (updating my A500 was a complete pain compared to my Nexus S because of this).
The current generation of Samsung devices are IMO the first gen where Touchwiz works really well. I have absolutely no desire to flash any ROM over the stock Sammy ROM because it works so freaking well. If i get a Note 2 i'm sure it'll be the same, but i am still waiting to see what the new Nexus devices will look like.
I think with the Note 10.1 we have an excellent device that helps us forget just how buggy and crap Touchwiz has been in the past.
poid, most of those problems you mentioned are still true.
Adding the manufacturer's customisations to Android still results in fewer and slower Android OS updates, still results in slower, clunky software (this is not so much a problem on extremely powerful processors like in the Note - more noticeable on slow processors like the Tab 2 - why they downgraded the processor in that I'll never know).
Touchwiz has indeed improved a lot, but the fact that it is a customised version of Android still means that Samsung has more work to do in order to push out upgrades and optimise the new software to run smoothly on the device.
tenderidol said:
It's ironic, because I'm having issues with a Nexus device while the SGN with Touchwiz works without any issues.
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Click to collapse
thats not because of vanilla android, its because of asus hw. the galnex with stock jellybean (the kind that it boots with, no cm or aokp) is just as solid as this, and most of the custom roms are as well. the galaxy nexus did not sell many units because not a lot of people know a lot about nexus and the android ecosystem, and it wasnt as hyped with all the commercials and ads as, say the gs2, gs3, or one x.
aletheus said:
The 'obsession' with AOSP stems from a Linux purity thrust. Most OEMs do NOT release their mods to android back as open source contributions, which technically, under the gnu gpl, they should. Samsung-skinned android OS is kind of like Linux mint as opposed to Linux Fedora. Fedora comes out of the box with ABSOLUTELY NO proprietary software, whereas Linux mint ships with flash, Google search (which is NOT open source). So when you run Konqueror (stock KDE browser) you have to download and choose Google as your search engine. Otherwise, it uses duckduckgo, which I prefer..I use ddg on my android tablets even.... I just don't like my search history being chronicled.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All 100% true. And meaningless to the 95% of Android users not considered "enthusiasts." The SGS2 sold 28MM the Note I 7MM and the SGS3 20MM in 100 days. The GN sold 500K. That kind of tells you what the general device purchaser thinks is important and it isn't AOSP. Performance isn't about h/w or s/w in isolation. The GN has a crappy camera, awful display, and horrible battery life. AOSP and JB or KLP can't fix that. Same thing with the h/w issues on the N7. Samsung's always done a great job of tuning the h/w and s/w on their devices to perform better together. Samsung's stock browsers have always blown away all others because of the h/w acceleration they include. Same thing with the additional codecs they provide for audio and video. It's nice to have options through the devs on XDA but not everyone views their devices as a science project.
MercuryStar said:
poid, most of those problems you mentioned are still true.
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Click to collapse
The performance issues are pretty much gone because of more RAM and faster processors. I have a Teg3 One X and I love Sense. The integration between apps makes me more productive and allows me to get stuff done (EG: rejecting a call with a message and adding it as a task to Outlook to follow-up with one swipe) faster than diddling with a bunch of non-integrated third party apps. Since I actually use my devices getting a 1K higher score in AnTuTu or orgasming over screen transitions is less important than what they're capable of actually doing. The price you pay for an overlay is later (if at all) updates but to some that's an OK trade off. Ask the VZW and Sprint GN owners about getting updates on their "pure Google" devices. They may not agree that's a benefit that always works as described.
poid said:
The current generation of Samsung devices are IMO the first gen where Touchwiz works really well. I have absolutely no desire to flash any ROM over the stock Sammy ROM because it works so freaking well.
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I can't root and ROM because of security and registering on foreign GSM networks when I'm traveling so I couldn’t if I wanted to. But I agree with you. The Note and my One X (after the last update) don't leave me wishing I could.
Nexus 7 is very flawed . but not its os
I will be getting my note 10.1 tomorrow or wed at the latest.
I see alot of nexus 7 talk in this thread and thought i would tell my story.
The nexus 7 software is very nice near flawless there is some issues with touch response and dead spots on the screen. The device itself has a huge design flaw . This is caused by two things. Number one being the bezel is to small under the screen . the lip on the left side has been reduced to allow for the digitizer connections this causes either the bezel to warp or the screen to become loose and lift up and move. This movement is causing screens to crack and shatter. There are issues with A Yellowish spots burn in on the screen as well as screen flashing from issues with light sensor calibration. CM 10 Does help with that issue some. but shutting off the sensor. There are people posting about the device making a squeeling sound then just going off and never coming back on Speakers going bad or not working head phone jack not working.. And so on..
I had a nexus pre order it came in with a few of the above issues. I got a advanced replacement had to send it back on the day it arrived because of huge screen issues. Due to the big hassle with trying to get a refund i sent the other back. its been nearly two months They have both devices back and all of my money..
IN SHORT the nexus 7 is plegued with issues if you have one and its working Lucky you.. But there are more bad then good.. it was pushed to market too soon in my opinion.. but the device i had ran very well and fast . its a great size to pack around but not so good for web browsing .screen to small..
Anyway my opinion only read the nexus 7 forum if you feel anything about is wrong . its all there ..
thanks all ... I eagerly await my note 10.1 tablet ..
I will not buy a Note 2 and proceed with a Nexus device.
Be it from LG, HTC or Samsung.
The Original Note has already frustrated me to a point I can't bear no longer.
Let me explain why before you Note 2 worshippers come and attack me.
Original Note Frustrations:
1. ICS Update for GT-N7000
- Gingerbread theme on an ICS based ROM. I mean comeon how lazy are you Samsung really?
- Even the Gallery is not updated. It's stock Gallery from Gingerbread (Fixed in latest half-assed S3 lookalike update)
2. Midway ICS transition to JB Update for GT-N7000
- Improves the situation abit but still very gingerbread-ish.
- Finally the launcher lags no more. I mean after 10 months after launch? SERIOUSLY SAMSUNG?!
- New Gallery from Note 2. I applaud this. A great improvement from your Gingerbread Gallery.
3. Waiting for Updates.
4. S-Pen, no matter how much you worship this Samsung innovation, it does not feel native to the core OS.
5. Super AMOLED HD is a pain in the ass.
- Screen degrades too quickly. It takes 6 months only for the whites in my Note to go YELLOW. 6 freaking months.
- Try to view a full screen white image when you are using your S-AMOLED HD phone. Its completely uneven.
- I mean, really? Left is pure white. Right is yellow? What sorcery is this?!
- Pentile but solved in Note 2 but quick degration is probably still present.
- I swear the Note 1 which has higher pixel density is more blurr-ish than my iPad 3 which has a lower pixel density.
- Black Clipping. A serious problem still not solved from Day 1. Frustrating.
6. Aspect Ratio.
- To me is a downgrade. Less resolution.
- 16:10 allows me to have wider portrait viewing.
7. Samsung Exynos
- A real benchmarking powerhouse but still sucks anyway.
- Why it sucks? Documentation and source support. We Note 1 owners still don't get no Project Butter thanks to Samsung.
8. Samsung TouchWiz
- TouchWiz is clunky and unfinished. (They almost solved it in TouchWiz Nature)
- Too many gimmicks unless I mention are useful ones.
- Direct Call is useful.
- AllShare sucks compared to AirPlay. I can't AllShare my YouTube. But I can AirPlay my YouTube on iPad.
- Same thing for Pop Up Video. Why can't I Pop Up my YouTube? As I explained earlier, not built into Core OS.
- AirView (Note 2 specific feature) Completely unrealistic. Apple developed a way superior "pinch-a-little" to view photos. Who the hell wants to take out the S-Pen just so you can preview some photos which might not be photos you want to see even. Might as well click the album and view all right? AirView on Video Player is the same thing. You can just hold the seekbar right? Why use a pen?
But these are things I love about the original Note.
1. Battery is huge. I mean can really last two days long!
2. Screen size. I swear its perfect for my hands.
3. Video support is amazing!
I know Note 2 solved many of this problems but you know what. The future is still bleak with its Exynos processor.
The brick bug? Comeon. Samsung seriously? You still haven't fix it in months?!
Imagine another Project like Project Ultra Mega Buttery Smooth in Android 5.0 and then devs realised drivers are incompatible
with Note 2 and must wait for Samsung to release the drivers which could take months!
Note 2 is a good phone if only you don't see its flaws.
I learnt the hard way that hardware is not everything.
Software is important too with the dev support.
Note forums is practically dead until Samsung releases JB sources for the OG Note.
I expect a half-assed update whatever the next version of Android is when S4 comes out for Note 2. Trust me on that.
Your future with the Note 2 will be bleak with frustrations.
Ask any dev using Note 1 including me.
Frustration awaits.
Have a good day.
Yours truly
OG Note user from Launch Day.
I still want it. Anyone else still going to get it?
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Cool. Will read again.
Oh, good luck with lg. They are so reliable with software updates
Sent from my GT-P3100 using xda premium
Avatar said:
I still want it. Anyone else still going to get it?
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
got it. in one word this phablet is 'marvellous' it outshines other recent phones in every department from speed to display. no matter what the hardware is, but this giant is fast.
Anyone else think that this thread is unnecessary?
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:15 PM ----------
schiwa said:
got it. in one word this phablet is 'marvellous' it outshines other recent phones in every department from speed to display. no matter what the hardware is, but this giant is fast.
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I bet it does. Can't wait till it comes out for sprint. Nothing can beat this beast.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Ok thank you for letting us know, this is a very useful thread.
Also, every phone is a good phone if you don't see their flaws, what's your point?
stoney73 said:
Oh, good luck with lg. They are so reliable with software updates
Sent from my GT-P3100 using xda premium
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The point of Nexus is Google handles the updates.
Livebyte said:
The point of Nexus is Google handles the updates.
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That's why the Verizon galaxy nexus got its Jelly Bean update so quickly then I guess.
D3_ said:
That's why the Verizon galaxy nexus got its Jelly Bean update so quickly then I guess.
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I don't have to worry about that. I don't come from the West. All the devices here on contract or not is unlocked by law.
Avatar said:
Anyone else think that this thread is unnecessary? I
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I was refreshing this page waiting for reply exactly like this lol..
Livebyte said:
After all the frustrations with the Note 1.
.
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http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=32144030&postcount=117
Funny how you were saying how you were so glad to have switched to the OG Note less than 2 weeks ago....
And didn't you supposedly have an N7105 too?
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not trying to take that away. But being an owner of a Note 2 for about 4+ days now, I couldn't disagree with you more with virtually every bullet point.
Jelly Bean and S-Pen apps are revolutionary upgrade over the Note 1. Pull out the pen, and the device unlocks locks automatically and you're ready to write. Push it back in, and you're back to the home screen. The AirView works amazing, and it adds a whole new level of useful UI that is similar to hovering with a mouse but maybe even better. It is a feature that I am sure Apple is falling over themselves running to the conference room to see how they can get something like AirView. S-Pen functionally is heavily baked into the OS. And it feels refined. They seriously put a lot of focus here, so I am surprised that you say that anything is half baked.
I agree with you that TouchWiz for Gingerbread and ICS is seriously ugly. The Note 2 comes with TouchWiz UX (heavily modified for S-Pen), and it is a beautiful UI, better than any launcher available on the market (just my opinion. Some of TW UX is only clunky because they had to remove UI improvements due to Apple patent infringements. Minor annoyances really.
TouchWiz was made ugly on purpose by Samsung because they are in the business of controlling OS updates to sell more phones. And no, just because it is Exynos, it doesn't have anything to do with not getting OS updates. You're not going to do any better with updates with a Samsung that has a Snapdragon processor. If the Note 1 ever gets Jelly Bean, it will be TouchWiz again and uglified. So why are you sticking with the Note 1 again?
I agree that the new RGB screen is not anything special. It is pretty much performs identical to the Galaxy S3 screen except when examined under the microscope. It is not any brighter, at least mine is not.
You sound like you enjoy watching videos on the Note. Most HD videos are in 16:9 ratios these days, so that on a 16:10 screen, you get black bars on top and bottom. Thus you are only using 5.15" of your 5.3" screen on the Note 1. And the Galaxy Note having a 5.55" screen means you get a .4" upgrade from the Note. Whether you think an extra .4" for video is up to you.
Note 2 has a great battery. If you probably leave it alone and not use it, it would probably go for much longer than 2 days. It is that no one with a Note 2 has been letting it sit there for days and monitoring the battery just yet. It will happen, and the numbers can only be great. I was on it pretty heavily today tethering it, streaming videos, putting it through stress tests, speed tests, benchmarks, and I managed to go nearly 18 hours.
I guess what I'm saying is, in my opinion, your perspective on the Note 2 is completely off. And the reason I say that is what you are saying is polar opposite compared to all the people that have owned it for a few days and have reviewed it (myself included).
But hey, you're entitled to your opinion.
+1 to all that written above..
And 2 updates in 2 weeks..!!!
Samsung is really stepped on the pedal & its not gonna get any better then this on any OEM..
And good luck with the boring aosp experience..
Now someone close the thread..
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
foxmeister said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=32144030&postcount=117
Funny how you were saying how you were so glad to have switched to the OG Note less than 2 weeks ago....
And didn't you supposedly have an N7105 too?
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Liarbytes post:
Livebyte said:
A complete joke I know. I will never buy a HTC device again. I'm glad I made the switch to the OG Note from Sensation.
Oooo. Running TouchWiz 5 now stock on Note! :laugh:
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Click to collapse
Dont let the door hit your ass on the way out.
someone's just upset that the phone is beyond amazing and they can't handle it haha
Lucidmike said:
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not trying to take that away. But being an owner of a Note 2 for about 4+ days now, I couldn't disagree with you more with virtually every bullet point.
Jelly Bean and S-Pen apps are revolutionary upgrade over the Note 1. Pull out the pen, and the device unlocks locks automatically and you're ready to write. Push it back in, and you're back to the home screen. The AirView works amazing, and it adds a whole new level of useful UI that is similar to hovering with a mouse but maybe even better. It is a feature that I am sure Apple is falling over themselves running to the conference room to see how they can get something like AirView. S-Pen functionally is heavily baked into the OS. And it feels refined. They seriously put a lot of focus here, so I am surprised that you say that anything is half baked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, but S-Pen as I said will never feel native in the OS. But the minor improvements are definitely welcome.
AirView is useful to a certain extent. I don't imagine anyone wants to take out the S-Pen to view a preview of their photos or videos.
when they can just tap and see the actual image or video. Plus for AirView in Gallery, Apple did a much smarter way. Pinching a little to see a preview. That's smarter than taking out a pen to view.
I wasn't saying about Note 2. I was saying about how Note 1 is completely half-baked. I've tried Note 2. Its an improvement but not a major one.
One more time, I will say it again. It won't feel native to the OS.
I agree with you that TouchWiz for Gingerbread and ICS is seriously ugly. The Note 2 comes with TouchWiz UX (heavily modified for S-Pen), and it is a beautiful UI, better than any launcher available on the market (just my opinion. Some of TW UX is only clunky because they had to remove UI improvements due to Apple patent infringements. Minor annoyances really.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A major improvement I agree, but this causes the update dilemma. A serious problem no matter how much you love TouchWiz.
I love TouchWiz but I would give anything for a better update schedule near the iOS level.
TouchWiz was made ugly on purpose by Samsung because they are in the business of controlling OS updates to sell more phones. And no, just because it is Exynos, it doesn't have anything to do with not getting OS updates. You're not going to do any better with updates with a Samsung that has a Snapdragon processor. If the Note 1 ever gets Jelly Bean, it will be TouchWiz again and uglified. So why are you sticking with the Note 1 again?
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Click to collapse
Yes, the main reason Note 1 is still stuck with an unfinished JB is because of Exynos.
Not essentially true, I recall Exynos 4210 devices are the only powerhouses left that doesn't have hwcomposer fixed properly yet.
I agree that the new RGB screen is not anything special. It is pretty much performs identical to the Galaxy S3 screen except when examined under the microscope. It is not any brighter, at least mine is not.
You sound like you enjoy watching videos on the Note. Most HD videos are in 16:9 ratios these days, so that on a 16:10 screen, you get black bars on top and bottom. Thus you are only using 5.15" of your 5.3" screen on the Note 1. And the Galaxy Note having a 5.55" screen means you get a .4" upgrade from the Note. Whether you think an extra .4" for video is up to you.
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Click to collapse
AMOLED screens degrade very quickly. Brightness is not that important if the screens degrade so quickly compared to an LCD.
Note 2 has a great battery. If you probably leave it alone and not use it, it would probably go for much longer than 2 days. It is that no one with a Note 2 has been letting it sit there for days and monitoring the battery just yet. It will happen, and the numbers can only be great. I was on it pretty heavily today tethering it, streaming videos, putting it through stress tests, speed tests, benchmarks, and I managed to go nearly 18 hours.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally agree with you.
I guess what I'm saying is, in my opinion, your perspective on the Note 2 is completely off. And the reason I say that is what you are saying is polar opposite compared to all the people that have owned it for a few days and have reviewed it (myself included).
But hey, you're entitled to your opinion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't say much about Note 2. I was saying alot of the original Note.
A frustration but nonetheless an excellent device.
Well I'm just here to give an opinion.
Note 2 is amazing device. If you can live with the flaws, it's the best phone yet.
Galaxy Nexus and OG Note came out near the same time.
And now, the Nexus is way much superior to the Note because of the software.
I hope you get my point. I'm talking about the future here.
Not the current state of the device now which is amazing.
Livebyte said:
After all the frustrations with the Note 1.
- Half-assed ICS update. I mean comeon a gingerbread theme in ICS? Really?
- Then they decided to update halfway to half-baked S3 UI and still looks clunky.
- Tired of waiting for updates.
- S-Pen no matter what you think of it, doesn't feel native as in baked into the Android subsystem.
- S-AMOLED. I don't like it. The screen degrades too quickly. Now my whites are super yellow. Its frustrating! Best part the notification bar area is whiter then the other areas with a distinctive line. Disappointing.
- Pentile. (But they solved it with Note 2!) My eyes are never the same after seeing iPad 3's screen and looking at Note 1 is just blurry. Best part is iPad 3 has a lower pixel density than Note 1.
- Change of aspect ratio. I bought Note 1 because of 16:10. And it's gone. Don't tell me about the advantages about 16:9 because I like 16:10.
- Samsung source support. Seriously? Note 1 still doesn't have buttery smooth JB. Unbelievable. I will never buy an Exynos device ever again.
- TouchWiz. I love some aspects of it but I hate most of it. It's seriously ugly but somewhat useful in some ways. The newest iteration seems just fine, but not sparkling.
But these are things I love about the original Note.
- Battery is huge. I mean can really last two days long!
- Screen size. I swear its perfect for my hands.
- Video support is amazing!
I know Note 2 solved many of this problems but you know what. The future is still bleak with its Exynos processor.
The brick bug? Comeon. Samsung seriously? You still haven't fix it in months?!
Imagine another Project like Project Ultra Mega Buttery Smooth in Android 5.0 and then devs realised drivers are incompatible
with Note 2 and must wait for Samsung to release the drivers which could take months!
Note 2 is a good phone if only you don't see its flaws.
I learnt the hard way that hardware is not everything.
Software is important too with the dev support.
Note forums is practically dead until Samsung releases JB sources for the OG Note.
After seeing the LG Nexus, I don't feel like buying Note 2 even though I had an eye for Note 2 even before it came out.
I expect a half-assed update whatever the next version of Android is when S4 comes out for Note 2. Trust me on that.
Good day to all Note 2 current and future owners.
Your future with the Note 2 will be bleak with frustrations.
Have a good day.
Yours truly
OG Note user from Launch Day.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. You clearly prefer stock firmware/updates. In which case, why are you even here? Most users on xda prefer their devices rooted and running custom firmware, or at the very least, stock but processed (rooted, deodexed, zipaligned, the works...).
2. Don't like your UI? You don't even necessarily need root. There are plenty of launchers on play store alone to allow some sort of customization (Apex launcher is my personal favourite for example). If you want more than that, you'll most likely need to root.
3. I don't know what kind of miracles you expect doing with the S-Pen, but it IS in fact integrated to Samsung's firmware. Be it code, or simply drivers.
4. I have no clue what's wrong with your screen, but mine is crystal clear. Beautiful colours and very smooth.
5. True, no official Jellybean update as of yet. But, that's why we have a community of amazing devs here that bring it to us, whether it's in the form of a leak, or cyanogen based ports. Either way, they work on it hard to give us as stable releases as possible. Hence the name of this website, if you haven't noticed... xda-DEVELOPERS.
6. The Exynos processor on the GT-I9100 (Galaxy SII), still even now, pulls some of the best benchmarks on the market.
7. If the device is ugly, in your opinion, why bother even getting one in the first place?
8. Although I do agree the Note forums aren't as lively as other devices, there are some seriously stable rom options there, with MANY cool features.
9. "Note 2 is a good phone if only you don't see its flaws"?! This makes no sense. No general consumer market tech is flawless out of the box. I owned 2 LG devices.... Never again. You just cant compare the build quality between Samsung and LG.
Bottom line, if you don't know how to use your device properly, or to its fullest potential, don't complain about it.
This thread should be locked in my opinion.
Can't believe I wasted my time commenting about this. I just had to... LOL
Well I did buy the Note 2 and have been using it for 5 days now. But I can say one of the main reasons I bought it was that there were not really any acceptable alternatives for me. I was using an S3 and actually waited until the IPhone 5 was released to take a look but it was still too small.
I have a couple of complaints similar to the op's, and the first one is Amoled. The sad fact is that for the most part if you use a Samsung phone these days you have to deal with an unrealistic color representation and other display issues. If someone could make a 5 inch phone with the IPad 3 display quality they could have all my money. Now the Note 2 has maybe the best Amoled I have seen, but it is still not quite ready.
The other things are the various little problems with design. And here is an example that has me pissed off: If you are using your phone as a music player and used the long press on the headphone button to adjust volume well that will not work any more with 4.1.1. Instead it brings up the ridiculous Google voice search. So if you want to adjust the volume you have to take the phone out of your pocket and hit the button. And this is 2012. I have to wonder if the engineers who design these things actually use them. Did they ever take them home for a weekend or try to use them in day to day life? Usability problems like this make me nuts, and are why I nearly went back to the IPhone after using 3 different Samsung phones.
AlonB. said:
1. You clearly prefer stock firmware/updates. In which case, why are you even here? Most users on xda prefer their devices rooted and running custom firmware, or at the very least, stock but processed (rooted, deodexed, zipaligned, the works...).
2. Don't like your UI? You don't even necessarily need root. There are plenty of launchers on play store alone to allow some sort of customization (Apex launcher is my personal favourite for example). If you want more than that, you'll most likely need to root.
3. I don't know what kind of miracles you expect doing with the S-Pen, but it IS in fact integrated to Samsung's firmware. Be it code, or simply drivers.
4. I have no clue what's wrong with your screen, but mine is crystal clear. Beautiful colours and very smooth.
5. True, no official Jellybean update as of yet. But, that's why we have a community of amazing devs here that bring it to us, whether it's in the form of a leak, or cyanogen based ports. Either way, they work on it hard to give us as stable releases as possible. Hence the name of this website, if you haven't noticed... xda-DEVELOPERS.
6. The Exynos processor on the GT-I9100 (Galaxy SII), still even now, pulls some of the best benchmarks on the market.
7. If the device is ugly, in your opinion, why bother even getting one in the first place?
8. Although I do agree the Note forums aren't as lively as other devices, there are some seriously stable rom options there, with MANY cool features.
9. "Note 2 is a good phone if only you don't see its flaws"?! This makes no sense. No general consumer market tech is flawless out of the box. I owned 2 LG devices.... Never again. You just cant compare the build quality between Samsung and LG.
Bottom line, if you don't know how to use your device properly, or to its fullest potential, don't complain about it.
This thread should be locked in my opinion.
Can't believe I wasted my time commenting about this. I just had to... LOL
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You didn't read what I said. Do I have to repeat again? OMG.
Root or not, with dev or no dev.
It's nearly impossible to provide a STABLE JB-based ROM with hwcomposer working (aka Project Butter component) if the manufacturer doesn't provide the drivers for JB.
Yeah for now the screen is amazing, wait just maybe 6 months.
Enjoy your pathetic yellowish degraded screen.
I never even said the device is ugly. Seriously? Do you even read?
Pulls the best benchmarks with no stable JB hooray
while a TI-based phone which produces lower benchmarks has stable JB. I'm so happy.
I agree with you on the last point.
It's a wait and see approach. But the original Note is going to be my last Samsung device ever. Too many flaws.
Hello,
Has anyone heard any news about when a stock Android L rom will be ported to the SM-N9005?
Is someone already working on it?
I am not going for a port, but am really interested in Samsungs opinion. HTC says they'll stay loyal to that 90 day to deliver the update.
I tried the L Launcher, but apparently if you dont have the L framework, it will just show the current Now Launcher.
I was wondering when posts like these would appear. Finally it did.
A port MIGHT appear, because, well, this is XDA.
Also, I'm kind of disappointed. Samsung's high-end Galaxy devices look like panels from some spaceship's control room (especially the dark blue and black versions)...
Also, they're named "Galaxy", ffs.
And you start them...
And you're hit with some green bubbly colorful s**t that belongs to Teletubbies or something, the f*****g TouchWiz. -.-
With the coming of L (one might think that Google are fans of Death Note ) I wonder what kind of s**t is Samsung going to put on the all-new TouchWiz.
A true pity, because it seems to me that Samsung make the best all-around devices: good screens, good battery life, good performance, good cameras, replaceable batteries, microSD slots, we've got Odin...
I hope at least the overall goodies are not gonna change with the coming of the Note 4.