Okay before anyone starts to flame or start saying "Oh God" to the screen, this isnt the typical "When are we going to get Android to boot from HD2" question.
I know we all boot Android from our SDCard, but I went looking to see if there was any google pages on why the sd card? Being that we have an HD2 and it has alot of space (My phone says 768mb free internal storage), would it slow Android and the experience down if we had the "Android" folder copied to our phone instead? I know currently it probably wouldnt work, but being that the avg Android folder is 230mb to 260mb thats more then enough space to put the folder in, and possibly change maybe the daily useage or app installations onto the sdcard. If this was just a general rule of thumb that it was decided to be put on an sdcard across the board because not all phone had the room then is there no way to change that now since most phones are coming out to have larger internal space opposed to older ones?
And again, would it be slower to run this way or not?
AngelDeath said:
Okay before anyone starts to flame or start saying "Oh God" to the screen, this isnt the typical "When are we going to get Android to boot from HD2" question.
I know we all boot Android from our SDCard, but I went looking to see if there was any google pages on why the sd card? Being that we have an HD2 and it has alot of space (My phone says 768mb free internal storage), would it slow Android and the experience down if we had the "Android" folder copied to our phone instead? I know currently it probably wouldnt work, but being that the avg Android folder is 230mb to 260mb thats more then enough space to put the folder in, and possibly change maybe the daily useage or app installations onto the sdcard. If this was just a general rule of thumb that it was decided to be put on an sdcard across the board because not all phone had the room then is there no way to change that now since most phones are coming out to have larger internal space opposed to older ones?
And again, would it be slower to run this way or not?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hi
Haret cannot currently read from NAND, its code reads and searches for Data IMG and Rootfs and kernal in SD ONLY .....
hence NAND is so very different from HARET.
well Magldr is what would do the trick
I'm assuming your talking about nand as to boot from the phone like as if you are powering it up and windows loads, Im not actually talking about that. I'm actually talking about how it currently loads, except, instead of placing the Android folder on the SDCard and running clrcad and haret, instead placing the folder into the root directory of the phone and running clrcad and haret from there, same exact way we are running it now, except changing the location of the folder from card to phone.
AngelDeath said:
I'm assuming your talking about nand as to boot from the phone like as if you are powering it up and windows loads, Im not actually talking about that. I'm actually talking about how it currently loads, except, instead of placing the Android folder on the SDCard and running clrcad and haret, instead placing the folder into the root directory of the phone and running clrcad and haret from there, same exact way we are running it now, except changing the location of the folder from card to phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hi
Well firstly NAND does not necessarly mean booting from start, NAND= Internal memory, in fact cotulla's MAGLDR can boot android of the SD straight from power up whilst having WIN MO on NAND.
So to answer your question again,
HARET CANNOT READ NAND (INTERNAL MEMORY), it always looks for SD for everything , in some cases RAM, as in the new RAM builds that are popping up by devs.
the code for HARET cannot handle NAND at the moment and i dont thing it will ever be implemented.
I'm neither a dev or a hacker, this is just what i ahve understood from reading, i'm open to corrections,
best regds
I have to admit, this idea is very cool.. If haret could "see" the nand memory after WinMo is loaded, then all you need is a WinMo rom stripped down to the maximum and Android folder burned in it (at least the system part). if if if i am not sure, if its technicaly impossible for haret to see the nand memory after booting WinMo or if its impossible at all..
greg17477 said:
I have to admit, this idea is very cool.. If haret could "see" the nand memory after WinMo is loaded, then all you need is a WinMo rom stripped down to the maximum and Android folder burned in it (at least the system part). if if if i am not sure, if its technicaly impossible for haret to see the nand memory after booting WinMo or if its impossible at all..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
guys remeber HARET is a bootloader for LINUX, its crazy enough its helping us boot android from SD, I think the possible reason HARET is not designed for reading NAND is the potential damage it could do to SPL leading to a BRICK, now we dont want a brick do we ?
mally2 said:
guys remeber HARET is a bootloader for LINUX, its crazy enough its helping us boot android from SD, I think the possible reason HARET is not designed for reading NAND is the potential damage it could do to SPL leading to a BRICK, now we dont want a brick do we ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
never say never and expect the unexpected, thats what life teached me
phone wouldnt get bricked if you just read nand, but writing into it could do damage, i agree on this.
OK, so when I first read the OP, I thought he meant booting Haret from the phone's internal storage memory, not NAND.
Though the NAND Haret idea is really not bad, I couldn't see it corrupting the bootloader as long as it behaves the same way as it does from the sd. I mean, the phone is already booted WinMo, so HaRet and Android have no need to touch the bootloader, just as when running from sd. It would be more or less a startup.txt change/ rel_path = NAND/Android (not exact, but general idea). Seems alot different to me from MAGLDR, maybe there is just confusion about this
But if the NAND idea is not workable, wouldn't it be possible to run HaRet Android from the phone's internal storage memory, yielding a performance speed increase and less wear on the sd?
Clearly we couldn't do like I have now, a ton of builds with exceller, all running from internal storage, obviously we don't have 16gb internal. But what about just loading our daily driver from internal, and testing/less commonly builds from sd?
I like the idea because it could mean less wear on the sd, and possibly performance increase
BTW 300th post
Thats exactly what I meant, once WinMo is loaded, we normally go into the sd card thru file explorer and then go to android and then run clrcad and haret, winMo is already loaded and doesnt corrupt winmo, but if we could run the core system from the phones storage space, (Putting the android folder into the main directory, and then running clrcad and haret, this way the core system would load and any user installable files would just end up on the storage card, cause obviously we wouldnt be able to load all our apks into the phone (Some might, others like us go nuts).
But the concept is not a bad one, especially if there was a way when installing the apk's it asked for the location to add.
AngelDeath said:
Thats exactly what I meant, once WinMo is loaded, we normally go into the sd card thru file explorer and then go to android and then run clrcad and haret, winMo is already loaded and doesnt corrupt winmo, but if we could run the core system from the phones storage space, (Putting the android folder into the main directory, and then running clrcad and haret, this way the core system would load and any user installable files would just end up on the storage card, cause obviously we wouldnt be able to load all our apks into the phone (Some might, others like us go nuts).
But the concept is not a bad one, especially if there was a way when installing the apk's it asked for the location to add.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would say that if HaRet was pointed to the correct place correspondingly, either NAND or storage would work as I previously mentioned. I am unsure about any performance gains to be had, but it would surely save on sd card wear.
People say that going from NAND would corrupt bootloader, but since WM is already booted using HaRet, there is no reason that the bootloader is touched, even if it is all stored to NAND. MagLDR is different, that is going for a cold-boot of Android, no WM involved at all. HaRet and MAGLDR work different and I think that if Haret was made to look for /Android in NAND, it could work just the same as if off of sdcard.
And booting from the phone's storage memory would be even safer, as no far-fetched idea of HaRet corrupting the bootloader is even conceivable, as NAND would never even be touched at all.
I honestly believe though that if a version of Haret was released that looked to NAND memory for /Android, that WM chefs could bake lite version WM ROMs with popular Android builds already built into NAND, maybe in the \Windows directory. The chef could even cook in a modified version of Exceller's Android loader which would look to \Windows for the Android folder.
Since Android development is so far along, and there are so many builds that are 100% or near 100% stable, I do think that going this route is a viable option, I mean there are already WM builds that will install an Android build to the sd card all by themselves after you boot them up the first time. This seems a natural progression of that concept to me.
Maybe somebody could contact Netripper, and ask him more about this idea, and see if he would be kind enough to build a HaRet version to look to NaND memory, and another to look to internal storage space, the rest could be done by the end user, as there are WM kitchens available, and most ppl here could make a .cab to install \Android to internal.
That's my $0.02
huggs said:
I would say that if HaRet was pointed to the correct place correspondingly, either NAND or storage would work as I previously mentioned. I am unsure about any performance gains to be had, but it would surely save on sd card wear.
People say that going from NAND would corrupt bootloader, but since WM is already booted using HaRet, there is no reason that the bootloader is touched, even if it is all stored to NAND. MagLDR is different, that is going for a cold-boot of Android, no WM involved at all. HaRet and MAGLDR work different and I think that if Haret was made to look for /Android in NAND, it could work just the same as if off of sdcard.
And booting from the phone's storage memory would be even safer, as no far-fetched idea of HaRet corrupting the bootloader is even conceivable, as NAND would never even be touched at all.
I honestly believe though that if a version of Haret was released that looked to NAND memory for /Android, that WM chefs could bake lite version WM ROMs with popular Android builds already built into NAND, maybe in the \Windows directory. The chef could even cook in a modified version of Exceller's Android loader which would look to \Windows for the Android folder.
Since Android development is so far along, and there are so many builds that are 100% or near 100% stable, I do think that going this route is a viable option, I mean there are already WM builds that will install an Android build to the sd card all by themselves after you boot them up the first time. This seems a natural progression of that concept to me.
Maybe somebody could contact Netripper, and ask him more about this idea, and see if he would be kind enough to build a HaRet version to look to NaND memory, and another to look to internal storage space, the rest could be done by the end user, as there are WM kitchens available, and most ppl here could make a .cab to install \Android to internal.
That's my $0.02
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very possible,
Haret needs to be modified for that,
not sure who can do it.
Guys as far as i know, on hd2 is nand memory the same as internal phone memory.There is no built in sd card. I am not 100% sure, but there is 512mb nand memory (internal memory). I mean, we install winmo roms into the nand. So if your winmo rom is about 200mb, you will be left with soemthing like 300mb internal phone memory. Correct me, if i am wrong..
cheers
greg17477 said:
Guys as far as i know, on hd2 is nand memory the same as internal phone memory.There is no built in sd card. I am not 100% sure, but there is 512mb nand memory (internal memory). I mean, we install winmo roms into the nand. So if your winmo rom is about 200mb, you will be left with soemthing like 300mb internal phone memory. Correct me, if i am wrong..
cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
spot on
NAND = Internal memory
greg17477 said:
Guys as far as i know, on hd2 is nand memory the same as internal phone memory.There is no built in sd card. I am not 100% sure, but there is 512mb nand memory (internal memory). I mean, we install winmo roms into the nand. So if your winmo rom is about 200mb, you will be left with soemthing like 300mb internal phone memory. Correct me, if i am wrong..
cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well true except the TMOUS, which is 1024 mb, so it should be plenty then to run Android this way right?
Even with just 300 left after WM ROM, Android could still be done conservatively, without much apps installed, or with some kind of a2sd functionality, Froyo has inbuilt app to sd functionality, albeit not as good as a2sd ext2 or ext3 setup.
Guys I think you are missing the point, If this was possible, viable or worth it, it would have probably already been tried and tested and released along time ago.
The fact that this hasnt been done already tells me that its been thought about and rejected for good reason.
PS. NAND ..IS.. Internal memory guys so the running loading of kernel and files from internel memory instead of nand is a moot point.
Here's a question for you guys thinking it *could* be possible to put Android on internal storage(NOT NAND) instead of SD...
What do you think will happen after your device creates the data.img and tries to place it in the Android folder on Internal Storage? I for one think my device(1024 TMOUS Leo) would run out of memory and throw error after error about internal storage being critically low until I did something about it.
To top it off, what about the 100 some odd folders that Android creates on the SD card now? Where are you going to put all of that on internal storage?
To sum it all up folks, until we're running from nand and have dedicated internal storage(W/O WM), it's not likely to EVER happen due to sheer lack of space, even if haret was reprogrammed to allow booting from internal storage.
dharvey4651 said:
Here's a question for you guys thinking it *could* be possible to put Android on internal storage(NOT NAND) instead of SD...
What do you think will happen after your device creates the data.img and tries to place it in the Android folder on Internal Storage? I for one think my device(1024 TMOUS Leo) would run out of memory and throw error after error about internal storage being critically low until I did something about it.
To top it off, what about the 100 some odd folders that Android creates on the SD card now? Where are you going to put all of that on internal storage?
To sum it all up folks, until we're running from nand and have dedicated internal storage(W/O WM), it's not likely to EVER happen due to sheer lack of space, even if haret was reprogrammed to allow booting from internal storage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmmm,
well in that case, kernel could be programed to create Data IMG on SD, if you have been following the Rhodium Nand Project , you will see what i mean, a few components are on NAND and a few on SD
dharvey4651 said:
Here's a question for you guys thinking it *could* be possible to put Android on internal storage(NOT NAND) instead of SD...
What do you think will happen after your device creates the data.img and tries to place it in the Android folder on Internal Storage? I for one think my device(1024 TMOUS Leo) would run out of memory and throw error after error about internal storage being critically low until I did something about it.
To top it off, what about the 100 some odd folders that Android creates on the SD card now? Where are you going to put all of that on internal storage?
To sum it all up folks, until we're running from nand and have dedicated internal storage(W/O WM), it's not likely to EVER happen due to sheer lack of space, even if haret was reprogrammed to allow booting from internal storage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its not about putting the whole Android folder into nand, but for example only the system partition, just like in the RAM builds. All data and user stuff goes to sd.
Btw what do you mean by "...*could* be possible to put Android on internal storage(NOT NAND)." ? nand is the internal storage (memory). Or you guys are using different terms do you mean by "nand" the reseverd space where roms are stored and by "internal storage" the free space left (still in nand)?
TheATHEiST said:
Guys I think you are missing the point, If this was possible, viable or worth it, it would have probably already been tried and tested and released along time ago.
The fact that this hasnt been done already tells me that its been thought about and rejected for good reason.
PS. NAND ..IS.. Internal memory guys so the running loading of kernel and files from internel memory instead of nand is a moot point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually your part right, it was tested and released in the initial phases of the Rapheal (aka Fuze) and ran smoothly from what I read, yes there were hiccups, but that was due to the build being still in the alpha stages.
dharvey4651 said:
Here's a question for you guys thinking it *could* be possible to put Android on internal storage(NOT NAND) instead of SD...
What do you think will happen after your device creates the data.img and tries to place it in the Android folder on Internal Storage? I for one think my device(1024 TMOUS Leo) would run out of memory and throw error after error about internal storage being critically low until I did something about it.
To top it off, what about the 100 some odd folders that Android creates on the SD card now? Where are you going to put all of that on internal storage?
To sum it all up folks, until we're running from nand and have dedicated internal storage(W/O WM), it's not likely to EVER happen due to sheer lack of space, even if haret was reprogrammed to allow booting from internal storage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is where your part wrong as well. if you use a pre-set data.img file, yes for the most part you cant use anything larger then possibly 512mb on a TMous, 256 on others, definitely could not use the 1gb img file thats for sure, but the other part of this your missing is that if you dont put a pre-set data.img file, during the initial loading of android, android will create the file itself, and IF I am right the file will be sort of dynamic, dynamic in the sense it will expand as needed, I seriously doubt it shrinks. And on top of this you would then use the function a2sd, which in then would install your apk's to sd card. As of right now how much bigger is your 1gb data.img file that everyone added to their SDCards? Bet still the same size.
mally2 said:
hmmm,
well in that case, kernel could be programed to create Data IMG on SD, if you have been following the Rhodium Nand Project , you will see what i mean, a few components are on NAND and a few on SD
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually after doing some reading, neither the kernel (if I read correctly) nor is haret.exe the cause of pointing the boot location. I did some searching (Mind you I am NOT a LINUX person), but reading some of the files, I am guessing that the key file which controls the loading of Android, is located in the "init" file in the rootfs.img file. I mounted this file in windows to look thru it and view files, and that file seems to have a major role in it, how it works I dont know yet.
To All, please I am not trying to cause a stir here, I am merely looking at possibilities, and unfortunately I cant test them out since I dont have a spare SDCard as of yet (Will ina couple of days, 32GB SDCard for $40, woohoo), and then I have nothing to loose to try, cant brick the phone, since winmo is the default loading OS anyway. One of the reason it might not have been put on the phone as I said, could be speed, I dont know how much faster internal phone storage would be opposed to sd, but another reason why could be cause then the installation would put folders on the root file system of the stroage card and make it messy. Also alot of people constantly flash new builds, this would also hamper your android install being on the phones storage. And remember our normal HD2 roms are between 225 and 250mb stock or custom, where lite versions or stripped down version would be considered better for taking up less space.
One thing to keep note, during all this, I have an HTC Aria (Liberty) as well that I just recently got as an upgrade to one of my ATT lines, and I checked the internal storage of that phone, its stock with ATT's build of Android, and it has ONLY 168mb of storage available, and it came with a 2gb sd card. Now think about that when saying that the files would get to big, obviously the HTC Aria doesnt have anywhere near the capacity of the HD2.
And again to anyone else, let's be clear, yes the phones storage is a NAND, but just to make clear, we aren't talking about doing a cold boot of android, I know how sometimes that can get confusing.
Sorry guys, yes internal storage is NAND memory, the reason I drew a distinction was to make a distinction between loading from internal storage and ROM space. I only meant to illustrate the difference between the two and demonstrate my opinion that both are possible. I think with further investigation and testing, advantages of booting this way will begin to emerge. For example we will be able to remove the sd card while Android runs, not a great benifit, but you get the idea. But yeah, I should have used the term 'ROM Space' instead of NAND, I only meant to show difference between the 2 places to boot from.
Sorry if i caused any confusion.
Sent from my... whatever
Hey everyone, I am glad NAND is finally released (for those that have been waiting for it), but I'm wondering if theres anyone (yes I know the pros of having NAND Android) that prefers being able to dual boot? I'm starting to feel that work will halt on the SD/RAM builds. Any reassurance? Thanks guys.
I'd like to keep SD builds as well.
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
Naw I think a lot of us non-TMOUS HD2 owners will still use SD builds. Reason being, we just don't have a lot of storage space, which many of us need. Unless Devs perform the ext4 partition thingie onto or sd card, for us to expand storage, storage will still be small for non-TMOUS HD2 NAND users i guess.
Yes, RAM builds are the biggest source of competition for NAND - however, I haven't filled up my storage yet with my apps and still have about 90/100MB left of phone storage.
What about installing apps to SD card???
Signal strength is much better on NAND though for me.
Can you report how many %of the.time without signal with sd and %with nand? I believe you but I didnt test nand roughly because of the memory limitation. But I guess thats gone now
I hope the response will be "No". I use the PSX Emulator (FPSece) on WinMo so I prefer switch on Andoid or on WinMo.
Nand is obviously the next stage of evolution in rom development towards running Android natively on our hd2's.
sd card builds have the great advantage of being swapped easily, especially with multiple sd cards (I have two, one stable daily use which is fully configured and one experimental)
Moreover the risk of bricking your previous device is rather low from sd..
I am not very clear about the difficulty of transferring a build from an sd build to nand and vice versa, but if there could be a migration tutorial, as a sticky we could have both, latest builds in nand and the choice of running them from sd..
Is this technically possible? Which factors could inhibit easy migration?
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
I thought originally MAGLDR was supposed to be able to multiboot Android and WinMo (probably a non-sense version of each due to space)?
I hope MADLR can do the following soon:
- Load SD\RAM\NAND Android from custom folders on the fly
- Allow backup\restore of the data store
- Load WMP 6.5 and maybe even 7
I think this will keep the flexibility of multiple build loads alive which will benefit the user and the devs. I know some of this should be coming but it would be nice to get all of our belated Christmas wishes.
not sure but,,
im not sure but the aMAGLDR menu does also have the option to boot from SD-card, i havent tried it yet though..
also one thing i still want is the ability to boot my ubuntu-sd-card build, now i cant use haret.exe im not sure how to go about the dual booting thing ??
much stuff to try out
***edit***
ok, just put the contents of an old sd card build directly onto the root of an sd card (ie, without the 'android' folder) booted phone holing power key until magldr menu shows, then select boot AD from SD and it boots just like the old sd card with haret method, -
so far i see it finds zimage and initrd.gz, then i get the boot screen, .... looks like dual booting is still an option even if it may need a bit of tweaking.. i guess its just the startup.txt that needs to be read for it to boot properly ,
*********
I think in the original NAND release thread, Cotulla explains that a SD build (haret.exe) and a NAND build are very different, to use the SD boot option in MAGLDR, you need to put the content of a NAND build on the SD card, somehow...
edit: forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=10202441#post10202441
I would like it if they could implement a better DFT installer, which had options such as
• Install to NAND
• Install to SD
• Customise partitions
• Multiboot
Instead of just being able to install to NAND. This way, we can have a single installer / release for both methods (and this would make it easier for chefs )
HectiQ said:
Can you report how many %of the.time without signal with sd and %with nand? I believe you but I didnt test nand roughly because of the memory limitation. But I guess thats gone now
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it's impossible to say for how long - but on Darkstone 1.5 RAM, and MDJ's HD4.6 I would find the signal to have disappeared at least once a day up to three times - requiring a reboot of the phone - airplane mode did not seem to work.
After reboot signal would return to full strength in the same exact spot.
Problem is the signal would be lost in a pocket or on my desk and you simply would not notice it until you went to use the device - in fact the first time I realised it was happening was because I was getting far fewer emails/smses and calls and the phone was utterly quiet - very peculiar for the holiday season and party planning.
I haven't as yet downloaded a NAND build although i may well do that this evening, however having downloading many different builds for Android over the last few months i can safely say Dark Stone's SUPERAM blows everything out of the water in terms of speed it really is very fast which IMO is very important.