Database Users

How do we get HTC to release the EVO source code faster?

Any suggestions as to the best way to harass HTC into releasing the EVO source code quicker?
Send them e-mails or phone calls? Call Sprint and ask for it?
Can we do something like the campaign we tried for the FPS issue?
Thanks.
Per zonyl on page 2:
I managed to get Linux source for the Sharp Zaurus within a week and a half and Im sure following the same playbook will speed up the process with HTC as well. Hopefully I will have some time next week to do this, but the more the merrier! The more people call and contact legal the more attention it will get.
The plan:
- Call HTC corporate
HTC America
13920 SE Eastgate Way, Suite 400
Bellevue, Washington 98005
Tel: 425-679-5318
- Ask for representative in Legal Department (Tell them it is regarding potential litigation)
- Get legal representative's contact information before or immediately after being transferred.
- Politely ask for disclosure of GPL/Linux source code per section 3 of the GPL for the device they manufactured and that you purchased. (You may need to explain a little as they generally have no idea what this is. Doesnt matter much though as they still wont understand but make sure you explain its something that their engineering folks are liable for)
- Give them the GPL (by fax) http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html The license is even on the phone itself (Menu->Settings->About Phone->Legal Information->Open Source). Scroll down and you will see the linux kernel GPL
- Give them a written request (by fax) "Dear Sir or Madam, ..... Requesting Source for my product in compliance with GPL Section 3-a ... Thank you...."
- They will tell you they need some time to figure it out.... Give them about a week and call back (they will try to ignore you on the first call in hopes you go away)
- Call back using the representatives contact info. Ask them for the status.
- If they are stalling ask for the legal address to list as a defendant on a lawsuit for breach of contract and will be demanding "An Order of Specific Performance" to release the code. (BE POLITE! BUT FIRM) (This will definitely get their attention!)
- Wait a few days. Someone from engineering with a foreign accent will call you with information on when / where the source will be released.
- If this doesnt get anywhere, we can talk about the process of starting a lawsuit without paying lawyer. When HTC is served legal papers for discovery, Im pretty sure they will comply.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

lolz mclollerson said:
Any suggestions as to the best way to harass HTC into releasing the EVO source code quicker?
Send them e-mails or phone calls? Call Sprint and ask for it?
Can we do something like the campaign we tried for the FPS issue?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems no amount of begging ever makes them release code faster. Even legal threats failed before (not for the Evo, but its the same thing)
They know they have to release it by this point. They will do it, but on their own schedule. Pushing them to do it sooner hasn't gotten us anywhere before & I don't see it helping here either.

Damn, that's pretty disappointing.
Thanks for the heads up. :-/

I was actually talking to a guy from HTC earlier today about releasing the source. He told me that they will release it but he does not know when.

gman8966 said:
I was actually talking to a guy from HTC earlier today about releasing the source. He told me that they will release it but he does not know when.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Information content of this mesage: 0%.
Of course they will release it, the GPL requires them to do so. But then again they are already violating it every day they don't release it, so maybe they will just say f*ck it.

Bring a class action suit if you're really worried about it, you won't make any $, lawyer will get rich -- but maybe, just maybe it will hit HTC hard enough to realize they can't jerk the Open Source Community around and they are bound by the same laws as everyone else.

midri said:
Bring a class action suit if you're really worried about it, you won't make any $, lawyer will get rich -- but maybe, just maybe it will hit HTC hard enough to realize they can't jerk the Open Source Community around and they are bound by the same laws as everyone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why do people always come up with this?
You have no standing to sue anyone over this. Copyright holders in the Linux kernel, *they* have standing to sue someone over this.
The GPL says they have to make the source available, but it's not for you to use legal means to force them to do it.
Class action? Who's the affected class? The people who bought the Evo? Not hardly.

A class action that will hurt HTC? make them reconsider releasing Android phones? you might get a short term benefit of getting source code (well, not really, since the law suit will take longer) but in the long term, the Android community will just lose one of it's biggest supporters

I really think sprint is to blame for this you notice all of the source is availed for just about every other phone except the .29 heroc kernel and the evo kernel makes ya wonder if they are playing a part

If the source isn't out by my 30 days (7/6), it's going back. There's no excuse for being so cavalier with copyrights. Ironic considering they just launched a legal campaign against Shipped ROMs.

What we need is for a high profile e-zine to write an article.
-------------------------------------
Sent via the XDA Tapatalk App

What we need is for HTC to stop acting like Apple just because they finally have a phone that can compete with the iPhone. I don't care if this damn thing files my taxes and makes breakfast for me, if they can't respect the GPL they sure as hell aren't going to keep a cent of my money.

I've contacted HTC and Sprint... not luck... you can search my posts if you really want to read the responses.... I even contacted the FSF (I think they are the copyright holders for Linux Kernel for Linus) and no response from them... so eh yeah we just wait

Apparently you didnt have a Hero. The only thing you can do is wait...

What we really need to do is to start a twitter bombarding campaign like the Sprint hero users did. It took a bit, but it did work.

troyboytn said:
What we really need to do is to start a twitter bombarding campaign like the Sprint hero users did. It took a bit, but it did work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 for this

How long did it take for the Hero's source to be released?

caryroberts1 said:
How long did it take for the Hero's source to be released?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
3+ Months...Phone dropped in October, source came out in January.

PikkonX said:
3+ Months...Phone dropped in October, source came out in January.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That just makes me even more angry.

I have obtained some super secretive information that can help us get the edge. Through hours of undercover work and social engineering I have discovered that the HTC Engineers are partial to Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream.
I urge all of you to start a letter writing campaign to Ben & Jerry's urging them to exchange 10 pallets of ice cream for the source code. If we can't convince Ben & Jerry's that our charity is worthwhile, then we need to start raising money to buy it ourselves.
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I've never asked this forum for anything, but I am asking now..

Free 100gb of Google Drive Storage on your Oneplus One or ANY other device

So as many of you guys know if you don't live under a rock, Today HTC has a special offer going on for free 100gb of Google Drive storage if you sign in from a selected HTC phones..
So me being all that I am, I thought of something very quick.
Unethical or whatever you may call it, I went and made a visit to my nearest Tmobile store and I approached the closest HTC M8.
I promptly went into settings and did a factory reset and then proceeded to logging into my Google account. Right after that all you
have to do is open the Google drive app (it should already be pre-installed for you so no need to go download it) once you are there
you will be prompted a screen that shows the actual offer. Like I said it depends on which phone you are on and how much free storage you will
be given. Use the chart below to see what you will get.
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Tap Redeem and that's it. You may have to close out of Google drive again and reopen it for it to show up but it works perfectly. Best part is that it is free 100GB if you sign in from an HTC M8 for 2 years!
Also you can as very well use it on your other devices like me on my oneplus one Good luck to you guys and enjoy :good:
Important FAQ's for Offer
Which HTC Android devices are eligible for additional storage on Google Drive?
New HTC One (M8) (+100GB for two years)
HTC Desire 816, HTC Desire 610 (+100GB for two years)
HTC One max (+100GB for two years)
When upgrade to HTC Sense 5+ and Sense 6 becomes available on certain 2013 HTC models,
including HTC One, HTC Butterfly S, HTC One Mini and HTC Desire 601. (+25GB for two years)
How long is this Drive storage offer valid?
The offer must be redeemed before January 1, 2016. For most devices, you'll have your storage for 2 years, starting on the date you redeem the offer.
Can I apply the storage to another Google Account?
No. The free storage is not transferable and will only apply to the Google account you are using when you redeem the offer.
if I purchased a used/refurbished HTC device or unlocked the bootloader on my device, can I redeem the offer?
No. The offer is only available to original buyer of a device over its lifetime. Users who unlock the bootloader on their device are not eligible to receive this offer. so YOU MUST HAVE A LOCKED BOOTLOADER!!
Read more about the FAQ here: https://support.google.com/drive/answer/3333549?p=drive_offers_htc&rd=1
Official HTC Offer page: http://www.htc.com/us/support/htc-one-m8/howto/465031.html

Haha nice trick

lopman said:
Haha nice trick
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks man, Gotta enjoy free things when life throws them at you. :highfive:

SystemErrorOne said:
So me being all that I am, I thought of something very quick.
Unethical or whatever you may call it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have a conscience and choose to ignore it. That's nothing to be proud of.
SystemErrorOne said:
Thanks man, Gotta enjoy free things when life throws them at you. :highfive:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is that a quote from the looters at Ferguson last month? I'm sure you wouldn't be giving yourself high fives if you were on HTC or Google's end of the deal.

CafeKampuchia said:
You have a conscience and choose to ignore it. That's nothing to be proud of.
Is that a quote from the looters at Ferguson last month? I'm sure you wouldn't be giving yourself high fives if you were on HTC or Google's end of the deal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's nothing wrong with what I did. Others could say the same about users continously finding exploits to root and void warranties but you don't see anyone *****ing about that. I did this because it's simple and its not as if I stole any physical money, hardware, ect
Its your choice how you look at it.

SystemErrorOne said:
its not as if I stole any physical money, hardware, ect
Its your choice how you look at it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wrong. You took something with a fixed monetary value without paying. The fact that it's non-physical is a non-argument.

While it is clever, I agree with CafeKampuchia, and it also probably violates these forum rules:
6. Do not post warez.
If a piece of software requires you to pay to use it, then pay for it. We do not accept warez and nor do we permit any member to request, promote or describe ways in which warez, cracks, serial codes or other means of avoiding payment, can be obtained. This is a site of developers, i.e. the sort of people who create such software. When you cheat a software developer, you cheat us as a community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
9. Don't get us into trouble.
Don't post copyrighted materials or do other things which will obviously lead to legal trouble. If you wouldn't do it on your own homepage, you probably shouldn't do it here either. This does not mean that we agree with everything that the software piracy lobby try to impose on us. It simply means that you cannot break any laws here, since we'll end up dealing with the legal hassle caused by you. Please use common sense: respect the forum, its users and those that write great code.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

so after 2 years, does the account become deactivated or do you loose all the data thats on Google Drive?

One Month With Ogury

Hi Am Paul, an indie android developer in Uganda,
Last month I received an email from a one, Adrian Williams, VP of publishing with Ogury Ltd. (ogury.co)
It's not your conventional Ad network, it shows an impression called a "recommendation". These are interstitials that are shown at the start of the app life cycle.
Since their implementation wasn't going to interfere with my already existing monetization schemes such as admob, i took the plunge. This was mid August, most of my traffic is from the US, India, Korea, Indonesia, combined EU in that order. I average 20,000 impressions on Admob daily. And have 40,000 people currently with one of my apps on their devices.
Their dashboard isn't the best and takes time to update itself.
So far they don't have a section where you can feed in your payment details. However within the first week of the next month, you're sent an email with a verified amount and you're asked to send them am invoice asking for the money and include your payment details.
And today (19th Sept) I received the August Earnings.
They have a minimum payment threshold of $50 and can pay via PayPal as well as bank transfer.
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I frankly didnt believe it all and didnt want to share anything here until i had actually received the Money.
So if you want to add a monetization avenue that wont affect your existing banners and interstitials, I believe this is worth a plunge.
Goodluck bros (and sisters, all 3 of you)

compatible with google policy ???
Hi Paul,
My big concern is that .. is ogury compatible with new google policies .

Sorry, I made an error, ads aren't shown outside the app itself.
They are shown at the start.

paulasiimwe said:
Sorry, I made an error, ads aren't shown outside the app itself.
They are shown at the start.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How nice that you created an account just to praise them.
Does anyone has reliable infos ?

I Know it looks bad but im a legit developer with apps on play store,
email me or go on hangouts for more info : [email protected]
Search for an app on Google Play called Image Converter made by dev called "Paul Asiimwe", check the info and you'll see that same email.
You can ask me all you want there.

After plenty of time, I can settle with my final opinion about Ogury, based on my personal experience.
Pros:
High CPM.
Easy to implement.
Nice staff.
Clean dashboard.
Low payment threshold.
Ads can be disabled by the user. A pro for user compliance (although the button to do so is quite hidden).
Cons:
Usually low fill rate, although there has been a short period with 100% fill rate.
Poor SDK. There's no pre-load. It may be updated in future though, I guess.
Requires heavy authorizations. Personally, about 20-25% of my users never accepted those new permissions and never updated.
Requires a background service. I wasn't running any service before and received some complaints by users who noticed the change.
Ads can be disabled by the user. Also a con, because fill rate is 0% now. Luckily, they can't do it easily - LoL.
Intricate procedure to ask for a payment (it's not automatic).
Hefty fee (14€ for me) on the bank transfer (you probably want to be paid via Paypal).
No one told me about the above mentioned things related to payments.
Payment was late and was received after a solicitation.
Based on this, if you chose Ogury I suggest to implement it before the launch, because doing it on the way may upset the user base.
After all, the revenue was very good and it's worth as long as you can find a way to keep users happy.

Hi Paul,
My concern is do they have fast supporting? And what about the time for approval?
Thanks alot!

TramPham said:
Hi Paul,
My concern is do they have fast supporting? And what about the time for approval?
Thanks alot!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can tell that support is super rapid and there's no time of approval. I needed 1 minute to register, and 15 minutes to implement the code. Ads are instanlty live.

My concern is, what about the privacy policy we provide with our app ?
I think it had to be wrote somewhere that the ad network is collecting user datas.

What about other networks that specialize in the African continent like AdVine, Mobiclicks Direct, TwinPine, or Thumbtribe?

Developer Edition Community Stretch Goals

*This thread is about discussing the future of the Dev Edition as it pertains to the relationship between us and Samsung, and what we need from them. This thread will also contain official updates and information from my contacts at Samsung corporate.*
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm back home and able to respond again in regards to the DE situation. As you all know I had dedicated time to dealing with corporate on the matter of getting our phones in stock and working on other stretch goals such as software support. I told you all that Monday would be a good day but to be honest I had a feeling that we wouldn't have had our products shipped until Tuesday. I have a few ideas as to why this is the case, but more importantly I would like to emphasize and state something very important in regards to our participation in the developer program.
In all my dealings with the project managers and corporate wigs at Samsung I represented the cause on behalf of our community which no one there had heard of. I explained to them the importance and the legacy of XDA Developers, but most of all I made sure to tell them about the tight-knit community that helps each other out, the portal of people who band together in solidarity to raise support for developers, leaders, products. Most importantly I told them that not only does this credo bind us as a small group of users, but that the most important phone advancements come from communities like ours.
With that being said, we have a prime opportunity to make history by influencing their developer program in in a positive way. For that we need everyone to please be civil and respectful when dealing with Samsung customer service at the mobile accessories department. It is not their fault these phones were not ready to go out and they are willing to make it right. I say this as someone with an overnight order that not only didn't go out until today, but went out as ground shipping instead for Monday. There are hundreds of us, many calling in, and the last thing we need is to turn this into a clustercluck. The more positive we make this experience, the better.
I promised it would be a good holiday weekend with the Note 4 so take the time to enjoy it. The delay does push us back a bit on our goals. Tomorrow I will get to the bottom of this and hopefully get you an official explanation. Though we are delayed a bit, the volume of sales was larger than I expected initially which means that we now have a larger community. As one of "The First 40" from last month, we only had a couple of threads and not too much going on. I want to change that and so I will reach out to the mods and see if we can get our own space to collaborate and work together. This requires teamwork and participation as well as patience and a dash of happiness.
My contacts at Samsung see our numbers as leverage to get the things we really want, like support and original firmware as well as possible future updates. There's a lot riding on this so we can't mess it up. I can't delve into specifics about everything I've discussed with them but we may be looking at changing the way vendors officially view unlocked bootloaders and custom roms.
I've drawn up what in my experience is a good map of where to go from here with the product. If you have any input and information, this is the thread to add to the Developer Edition project pipeline. I can't believe we have to do the work for them and we aren't even paid for this, though someone's got to do it or else none of us are getting the full product experience we paid hundreds of dollars for.
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Any questions/concerns/goal ideas/requests here. This should be a good starting map of where to go from here. It is imperative that we all have our units, and we all have the safety net needed to not brick our units which is why Goal 2 is so important. Then we can go on to have custom ROMs. We'll need to collaborate but for now we will enjoy the device this week and figure out what you'd like to see out of the future with Samsung and the dev program.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods

Reserved for Goal 1 Updates
Update 1: With a one day delay, many of us are getting the phones and it's now out of stock again. Great work, I doubt we will have an idea of when it will be back in stock until next week because of the holidays.
Please take a moment to answer this one question survey on whether you were able to order a DE or you want to and are waiting on the back-order. This will give us a good head count for demand.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1uf...8JgFisXC4/viewform?c=0&w=1&usp=mail_form_link
Thank you.

Reserved for Goal 2 Updates

Reserved for Goal 3 Updates

How about a program similar to HTC? This would solve almost all problems without even having another sku..

I just looked over the HTC dev program, it's pretty simple and easy to implement something similar but on a smaller scope as a test. The only problem I see with Samsung rejecting the release of the files we need is that it could be used on non-DE models to make them DE editions as we noticed with the latest shipping. Remember, Samsung is still a business and not our buddies so they need a fiscal motivation to compete with HTC, which we've shown them with this high demand. So far they have been painfully ignorant of growing demands and I would attribute it to them not knowing how to properly implement/make money off of this.

I understand what you are saying but why have a developer edition period. If you are talking from a Fiscal standpoint, why does it matter who unlocks the bootloader. I guarantee that they lose sales to HTC because people want root. Nexus and HTC are gaining popularity as Samsung is losing popularity. Verizon and AT&T are losing sales and T-mobile is gaining sales.
People don't want to have to pay full retail when they can upgrade and unlock the retail version...
Here is another consideration, why should someone who pays full retail price for the retail version not be able to unlock the bootloader. It's not Samsung who owns the device... Samsung is greedy for the money... If you give the customer what they deserve that in itself will increase sales.
Why don't you pitch that idea to them. Give the consumer the choice, what Samsung has done was push away customers and make us Angry.. I applaud HTC, they did it right

Hi Virgil, here's a problem I see with your approach. Samsung knows all to well that the huge majority of people buying the Developer Edition of their phones are not developers. They are everyday users who are willing to pay the extra money for a phone they can install a custom recovery on and root. I don't know the statistics for sure, but I would bet that 98% of the Developer Edition Note 4 (for instance) sales have been generated by everyday users...not developers.
I've bought 3 developer devices from Samsung previously. With each previous purchase there was a questionnaire that you had to complete (obviously designed for developers) before your order would be processed. That questionnaire was/is not present in the sales "process" for the Note 4. A developer program is a great idea, but won't go far without real, no kidding developers.
If we want to give Samsung a reason to take our "developer community" serious then we need to find a whole lot of developers.

The whole developer thing is dumb...I own a Dev N3. You have to pay full retail for a device that will never get any updates or any stock firmware package to fall back on. Each dev bootloader has its own signature that is device specific, so there is no way to upgrade the bootloader without a dev specifically signing it to your device. I am running 4.4 Alliance build 2 on a 4.3 bootloader and because of that I have a few small quirks with youtube and bluetooth. Not a huge deal but it irks me.
Samsung should just allow you to have the choice to unlock your bootloader via fastboot at the cost of a voided warranty. Samsung once had the Smartphone market by the ballz. Now they are losing ground.

Sorry guys and girls we need to wait a few days for the Samsung internal team to decide upon the expansion of the developer program before we can begin to see any changes. I was told by the project director that there will be an internal meeting this week and our suggestions have been taken to account. I'm sorry I have nothing better for the community for now. I really want that original firmware most of all so we can begin developing.
Stay tuned and thanks again.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods

VirgilWoods said:
Sorry guys and girls we need to wait a few days for the Samsung internal team to decide upon the expansion of the developer program before we can begin to see any changes. I was told by the project director that there will be an internal meeting this week and our suggestions have been taken to account. I'm sorry I have nothing better for the community for now. I really want that original firmware most of all so we can begin developing.
Stay tuned and thanks again.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Virgil,
Just wanted to say "Thanks" for doing this. It's nice to hear updates from someone who actually does have some inside knowledge even if a particular update is just that we are being heard and more info may come later.

Yeahp THANK YOU

VirgilWoods said:
Sorry guys and girls we need to wait a few days for the Samsung internal team to decide upon the expansion of the developer program before we can begin to see any changes. I was told by the project director that there will be an internal meeting this week and our suggestions have been taken to account. I'm sorry I have nothing better for the community for now. I really want that original firmware most of all so we can begin developing.
Stay tuned and thanks again.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your persistance, Virgil. If you can get them to release firmware for the Developer Edition Note 4 you will have promoted yourself from Liason to "The Man".

Honor 5x $1 bonanza is a SCAM

This is a scam. They are not giving any $1 Honor 5x. I already had my address in my profile and the item in my cart. I clicked on "proceed to checkout", after less than 1 second that the button appeared, yet it got stuck on order summary, how could they have clicked the shipping option, payment method, click the "I have read the term and conditions" and then click the pay button, be redirected to 3rd party website and have paid for item, in less than second of what it took me to access the payment website where it hung? It happened 2 times already.
Even if you already have item In your cart and shipping address stored in your profile, you still have to go through this process. You cannot automate these steps, they have to be done manually.
- click on proceed to checkout
- click on shipping option
- click the dot on "payment method"
- select the square on the right that says "I accept the terms and conditions"
- click the "pay" button
- be redirected to their party website
- enter your payment information and pay
I had the $1 item already in my cart. I have been refreshing like crazy. I clicked on "proceed to checkout", my timing my flawless and as soon as I got to the checkout page, it was gone, out of stock in less than second. It is IMPOSSIBLE, let me repeat, impossible, that they could have gone through those 7 steps in less time than what it took me to simply click on "proceed to checkout". This is a scam to bring huge traffic to their site, where they will make more revenue from visits, and also people will buy their legit deals, 30% off and the bundle. Also, how convenient that the winner happens to be a guy who constantly posts pictures of different phones, wallpapers, selling, comparing and reviewing phones, and he is part of the google+ honor usa community.
//plus.google.com/+GaryBell/posts/3bYAFd9NCQR
How convenient that right after I say on the honor blog that there is no proof that anyone could have won, and this could be a scam, suddenly that link/winner pops up.
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Sour grapes much?
Sent from my SGP621 using XDA-Developers mobile app

A scam? Really??
So because you didn't magically win, when going up against who knows how many other people, the offer must be a scam? One would have to have an understanding of how the hosted services on the internet works to be able to ascertain whether or not this is a "Scam" or not. And I can assure you that the results you encountered were the same as many others. Ever been through a Woot-Off when a BoC get's posted? Same idea....

CMed67 said:
So because you didn't magically win, when going up against who knows how many other people, the offer must be a scam? One would have to have an understanding of how the hosted services on the internet works to be able to ascertain whether or not this is a "Scam" or not. And I can assure you that the results you encountered were the same as many others. Ever been through a Woot-Off when a BoC get's posted? Same idea....
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How would you know is not just a plot to get more traffic to their store?
This is a big business we are talking about, do you think they give a crap about you? All they care about is money. Do you really think they are gonna give away free phones? lmao How convenient that after I ask on the honor blog that there is no way for us to know if is legit or not, and that they could easily create fake profiles/buy reviewers, suddenly, right after a guy pops up on the honor google plus page claiming to have won the phone lol
Whatever, i already have the phone, but i feel bad for those people who cannot afford one, had their hopes up, wasted their whole day on this, only for some other guy who obviously is well off and changes phones every month, supposedly won another new phone

Fowleri said:
How would you know is not just a plot to get more traffic to their store?
This is a big business we are talking about, do you think they give a crap about you? All they care about is money. Do you really think they are gonna give away free phones? lmao How convenient that after I ask on the honor blog that there is no way for us to know if is legit or not, and that they could easily create fake profiles/buy reviewers, suddenly, right after a guy pops up on the honor google plus page claiming to have won the phone lol
Whatever, i already have the phone, but i feel bad for those people who cannot afford one, had their hopes up, wasted their whole day on this, only for some other guy who obviously is well off and changes phones every month, supposedly won another new phone
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And the butthurt continues.
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Some people's children...