Database Users

open source Ha

why are they blocking **** on the G1 if its supposed to be opensource
and in opensource anything goes
and i heard they wont let you put skins on the market
oh well i still love my G1 hopefully they dont **** **** up
btw we should start a petition against rc30 because its negating the open source part of the phoen

http://source.android.com/download
and in opensource anything goes
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Click to collapse
Yup. That includes taking the source code and building a closed or partially closed product.

roguestatuskat said:
why are they blocking **** on the G1 if its supposed to be opensource
and in opensource anything goes
and i heard they wont let you put skins on the market
oh well i still love my G1 hopefully they dont **** **** up
btw we should start a petition against rc30 because its negating the open source part of the phoen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think you quite understand the concept of open source. Open source doesn't mean "anything goes." Open source means you get access to the source code. Depending on the license, you can take the source code and make a closed source program (BSD, for example), or it must stay open source (GPL). That is it.
RC30 had nothing to do with negating the open source concept. RC30 was in response to a bug in the project that allowed whatever you typed on the keyboard to be echoed to a console.
If you want a rooted, unlocked phone, get an Android Dev Phone 1.

A truly wide open, mass marketed cell phone in this package would be a BAD thing for us. It needs to still have standards to insure the "typical" user can easily use the device and not have to worry about ****ing it up.
Get a Dev phone if you want to modify it.

vr24 said:
A truly wide open, mass marketed cell phone in this package would be a BAD thing for us. It needs to still have standards to insure the "typical" user can easily use the device and not have to worry about ****ing it up.
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I really don't see what is wrong with selling a software unlocked device through T-Mobile. The default ROM that comes loaded does not have root enabled... you actually have to go through the SPL to flash a new image which has ro.secure disabled. Its not like someone can just accidentally go into SPL mode and brick their phone, they actually have to press a key sequence to access it.
Also, look at just about every other device on these forums. They run WINDOWS, the most closed source platform out there and even on those phones we can flash images via SPL. Why not on a phone running linux?

Datruesurfer said:
Also, look at just about every other device on these forums. They run WINDOWS, the most closed source platform out there and even on those phones we can flash images via SPL. Why not on a phone running linux?
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It is really quite a lot easier to seriously damage a Linux system in the command line than it is with Windows. With root access, Linux assumes you know exactly what you are doing. Root also bypasses quite a lot of Linux's security mechanisms. This behavior is not appropriate or ideal for a consumer-oriented device. The G1 is not marketed toward software developers and experienced Linux hackers. If such a device is required, the Dev Phone 1 is the appropriate option.
Also, if WinMo were ever to want to make serious attempts at breaking into the consumer smartphone space (where iPhone and Symbian live), I imagine it too would become seriously locked down.

jashsu said:
It is really quite a lot easier to seriously damage a Linux system in the command line than it is with Windows.With root access, Linux assumes you know exactly what you are doing. Root also bypasses quite a lot of Linux's security mechanisms. This behavior is not appropriate or ideal for a consumer-oriented device. The G1 is not marketed toward software developers and experienced Linux hackers. If such a device is required, the Dev Phone 1 is the appropriate option.
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Click to collapse
You know what has the same power that root has to brick your phone? the bootloader. Say you try to flash to the latest ROM and it fails half way through... Your phone is basically bricked. Regardless, HTC still has this enabled on all of their Windows Mobile devices. Not exactly consumer oriented functionality, but it is there so people who know what they are doing have the power to do what they want.

I really think everyone needs to calm down here. We aren't sure what is in store for the future. Maybe we should withhold complaints and other comments until after Google has finished their first release.
But feel free to complain about how t-mobile doesn't tell you about the beta-ness of the device.

neoobs said:
I really think everyone needs to calm down here. We aren't sure what is in store for the future. Maybe we should withhold complaints and other comments until after Google has finished their first release.
But feel free to complain about how t-mobile doesn't tell you about the beta-ness of the device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google already made their stance very clear. Buy a Dev Phone for $399 + $25 market subscription fee + shipping or you can't have root. I'm sure its going to be the same for every other android device coming out.

Datruesurfer said:
Google already made their stance very clear. Buy a Dev Phone for $399 + $25 market subscription fee + shipping or you can't have root.
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Click to collapse
It's not Google's decision to make:
Brian Swetland @ G1-Hackers mailing listhttp://www.telesphoreo.org/pipermail/g1-hackers/2008-December/000188.html
The t-mobile g1 devices are "working as intended" as of RC30. It is
possible that other OEMs or carriers may choose to ship their devices with
the platform in a less (or, hey, even more) locked down configuration, but
that is the choice of the OEMs and carriers.
I'm sure its going to be the same for every other android device coming out.
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Click to collapse
Which OEM or carrier do you work for/speak for?

This "its working as intended" is technically true but it means the HYPE behind the phone was and is a load of crap.
If T-Mobile wants to become Verizon, so be it. They're entitled. Customers are entitled to tell them to pound sand and stick it where the sun does not shine.
What's unreasonable (and indeed outrageous) is to sell a beta device to the public without making VERY CLEAR what you are doing. OTA "push" updates are even worse as they can (and in this case DID) REMOVE functionality that used to be there.
As for building "totally secure" environments, heh, have at it. But doing so destroys the attraction of "open source" and then you're on the hook to deliver the full experience that the user expects, because he or she can't get it from anyone but you.
Just so long as everyone involved understands that this is the tradeoff and is ok with it (that is, the customer is INFORMED before they hand over their money AND the company understands that they will get the criticism that will come when the experience doesn't meet expectations!) that's fine.
Would I buy a WinMo unit that I could NOT hack on and load my own firmware? Today, hell no, because what's delivered "stock" does not meet my expectations for user experience.
Neither does the G1, and the reason I'm not sitting here with one is because T-Mobile has made an executive decision to lock those devices down to the point that I can't do for myself what they either refuse to do (or are incapable of doing) for me, nor can I find other people who can and do those things and load THEIR stuff on the platform.
If I wanted a Samsung "prepack" phone I'd have bought one. Oh wait - I can even reflash and feature-edit those, along with Motorolas!

Datruesurfer said:
Google already made their stance very clear. Buy a Dev Phone for $399 + $25 market subscription fee + shipping or you can't have root. I'm sure its going to be the same for every other android device coming out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would like to know where you got your information about Google's stance. So far all they have said is that the device is still partly closed source till the get things the way they want it. This would also imply that later down the line they may give the option to open root again.

Genesis3 said:
This "its working as intended" is technically true but it means the HYPE behind the phone was and is a load of crap.
If T-Mobile wants to become Verizon, so be it. They're entitled. Customers are entitled to tell them to pound sand and stick it where the sun does not shine.
What's unreasonable (and indeed outrageous) is to sell a beta device to the public without making VERY CLEAR what you are doing. OTA "push" updates are even worse as they can (and in this case DID) REMOVE functionality that used to be there.
As for building "totally secure" environments, heh, have at it. But doing so destroys the attraction of "open source" and then you're on the hook to deliver the full experience that the user expects, because he or she can't get it from anyone but you.
Just so long as everyone involved understands that this is the tradeoff and is ok with it (that is, the customer is INFORMED before they hand over their money AND the company understands that they will get the criticism that will come when the experience doesn't meet expectations!) that's fine.
Would I buy a WinMo unit that I could NOT hack on and load my own firmware? Today, hell no, because what's delivered "stock" does not meet my expectations for user experience.
Neither does the G1, and the reason I'm not sitting here with one is because T-Mobile has made an executive decision to lock those devices down to the point that I can't do for myself what they either refuse to do (or are incapable of doing) for me, nor can I find other people who can and do those things and load THEIR stuff on the platform.
If I wanted a Samsung "prepack" phone I'd have bought one. Oh wait - I can even reflash and feature-edit those, along with Motorolas!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then don't buy a consumer oriented device like the G1 - don't like how it operates, there are thousands of apps to add new functionality. Want root? Too bad, it's not designed or released for that reason, or, gasp, buy a DEV PHONE.
You think T-Mobile is even remotely taking into considering the .00001% of the user base that is like you? Who wants to buy a phone to HACK it!? Be serious here. What features are you really missing out here? Can't teather the phone (which t-mobile doesn't want you doing anyways) - and can't set auto-rotate?
Yes, caching to the SD card is something that needs fixing, but hardly a major "I need root" problem at this point, the phone is practically still BETA, and again, BUY A DEV PHONE.

Genesis3 said:
OTA "push" updates are even worse as they can (and in this case DID) REMOVE functionality that used to be there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The update was to fix a gaping security hole not to remove functionality. The fact was that before it was fixed all it would have taken would be for a site contain certain malicious code and then a person would have root access to your phone and all your personal information with it. Just think of how far someone who had your google credentials could go.
RC29 was a test of the OTA system. If it hadn't been for the security hole RC30 probably would not have happened. If it wasn't fixed it would have opened Google & T-Mobile to a massive amount of liability.
As for building "totally secure" environments, heh, have at it. But doing so destroys the attraction of "open source" and then you're on the hook to deliver the full experience that the user expects, because he or she can't get it from anyone but you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is another misunderstanding of what open source really is. It means that the source code is open to be viewed and/or modified. It does not mean that the hardware needs to be (think of Tivo).
Aside from that one of the new "cupcake release" that is currently being worked on includes support third party updates of system applications. This ability alone means a lot.
the reason I'm not sitting here with one is because T-Mobile has made an executive decision to lock those devices down to the point that I can't do for myself what they either refuse to do (or are incapable of doing) for me, nor can I find other people who can and do those things and load THEIR stuff on the platform.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please do some research before you try to say what T-mobile's intent is. If they're not going to move to block tethering, which would impact them via the bandwidth, then why would they move to otherwise lock the phone from modification in ways that wouldn't?
The G1 is not missing any features advertised before launch. The fact that you want more from it and the fact that people are working towards making that a reality kind of shows the power of open source. I don't think that WM had this level of development and as much progress a month an a half after launch.

Genesis3 said:
But doing so destroys the attraction of "open source"
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Click to collapse
Open source and Linux have different benefits to different groups of people with sometimes divergent agendas. These groups could include oems/manufaturers, carriers, power users, casual users. What is an "attraction" to you may be unimportant or a liability to someone else.
Just so long as everyone involved understands that this is the tradeoff and is ok with it (that is, the customer is INFORMED before they hand over their money AND the company understands that they will get the criticism that will come when the experience doesn't meet expectations!) that's fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seems to me that at the core of a lot of dissatisfied G1 users is either: 1) their own expectation that the G1 would have X and Y features that were never advertised to be supported "out-of-the-box" or 2) their dissatisfaction at not having root access (which was never advertised). Some folks new to the world of open source seem to think that any product built on os components must be by nature completely open access. This is a completely flawed assumption. I see no need for T-Mo or Google to apologize for a potential G1 owner's own assumptions going into the purchase.
Would I buy a WinMo unit that I could NOT hack on and load my own firmware? Today, hell no, because what's delivered "stock" does not meet my expectations for user experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Another solution would simply be not to voluntarily buy any WinMo products at all. Tech is still a business, and the best way to get businesses to act is to put your money where your mouth is.
@vr24 & benmyers: Agreed completely.

There are a whole host of things that the G1 does not do by intent.
Tethering is just one of them.
I actually use my phone to do work on, and the functionality that would have been LOST going from either a Wizard or a Kaiser to the G1 was insane.
I toyed with one for a half-hour or so in the store and said "thanks, but no thanks" when a half-dozen things I attempted - simple stuff that WM6 (and even WM5!) support native like, oh, connecting to my ORB server at my house and watching CNBC on the phone - failed.
Tethering has been possible on virtually every phone that can run data T-Mobile has produced and can talk to a PC since the Nokia 6610 (a phone I still happen to have, having purchased it FROM T-Mobile in something like 2001!); removing that functionality is absolutely asinine given that it was intentionally removed - Linux by its nature knows how to do both NAT and DHCP, the two essential elements required.
Yes, I'm aware they've removed it from a couple of other recent models' firmware (Samsungs in particular) as well. You want to cite some speech by a T-Mobile executive that PREDATES the firmware changes they made intentionally to the Samsung models? Guess what - executives lie all the time. Wake up and smell the coffee, or have it poured down your back.
Like I said, if they intend to become Verizon they're entitled, and customers are entitled to leave - and will.
"Dream"? Ha.
T-Mobile is IMHO making a critical error given that the "bling crowd" doesn't need a $100/month cellphone bill and into the maw of the worst economic conditions since the 1930s do you think people will cut luxuries like data on their cell phones or their car payment first?
You fanboys are welcome to your "Dream"-cum-nightmare; as for the suggestion that I shouldn't buy a WinMo device because "its not all there as intended" I buy with the full knowledge and intent that I can unlock and flash it, intending to do so at the point of purchase. That's part of the bargain and why I purchased it - if that wasn't possible I'd probably be on a Symbian device instead.
As for "doing research" the fact of the matter is that without system-level access nobody's going to be building a native tethering application. Modifying routing tables (including setting up NAT) requires system privilege; 20+ years experience writing Unix device drivers here kids.
Have a good evening.

Genesis3 said:
Linux by its nature knows how to do both NAT and DHCP, the two essential elements required.
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Click to collapse
Android ≠ Linux
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Genesis3 said:
removing that functionality is absolutely asinine given that it was intentionally removed - Linux by its nature knows how to do both NAT and DHCP, the two essential elements required.
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Click to collapse
This comment is so flawed I don't even know where to begin. I'm assuming you mean dhcpd. In any case, the average user only cares whether tethering is possible or not and yes it is very possible. I'm beta testing June Fabric's PdaNET for Android.
T-Mobile is IMHO making a critical error given that the "bling crowd" doesn't need a $100/month cellphone bill and into the maw of the worst economic conditions since the 1930s do you think people will cut luxuries like data on their cell phones or their car payment first?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Last I checked, htc's numbers for G1s shipped thru end of Q4 2008 is 1 million units. Considering that T-Mo is Dream's only carrier and all Dreams are sold with a dataplan, I think they're doing alright. Certainly feel free to correct me if you have more accurate numbers.

benmyers2941 said:
Android ≠ Linux
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Click to collapse
The drivers are in the kernel. Have you looked?
I have.
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Click to collapse
Beggars eh?
Hmmm... me thinks you got that backwards.

Genesis3 said:
The drivers are in the kernel. Have you looked?
I have.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup...sure have... and as jashsu pointed out
tethering is possible or not and yes it is very possible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Beggars eh?
Hmmm... me thinks you got that backwards.
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Click to collapse
How so? I'm not the one asking for stuff and then choosing not to believe what I'm told.

Letter to HTC preventing us running software on a legally unlocked HD2

Dear Sirs,
I have a question on your policy of locking the phone. Currently I have received my unlock code for my HD2 from my operator Bouygues but you do not allow me to update the software of MY PHONE. Let me make it clear to you: I am the owner of the phone and if I like to change the software even with a risk I can do that because I am the OWNER of the phone. I bought it legally, I got the unlock code from Bouygues so I am entitled to do with my phone what I want to do.
I can even smash it or throw it through a window of the HTC offices if I want to do so. If you do not agree and state that it is not my phone your phone is actually returning to your premises in a somewhat peculiar way. But since it is not my phone but yours this is your problem.
To get this clear: I am willing to go to court and start a class action case against HTC for deliberately and intentionally taking away my liberty as a consumer to choose to use the software in any language I want on a device that I own.
I had a similar issue with Nvidia over providing notebook drivers for their graphical cards and you can check: they provide notebook drivers for their cards now.
I will publish this letter also on xda-developers.com because HTC is illegally limiting me access to the phone I own and I have any rights to do with it what I want to do.
So I ask you to correct this issue and provide an update as soon as possible to prevent me from starting a class action suet against HTC.
Looking forward for your reaction,
Yours faithfully
Roger

It's got nothing to do with HTC, that's your operator that has locked the rom, and unlock codes have nothing at all to do with rom lock/branding. It's all your operator, and you entered a contract with them when you got the phone from them, and in that contract they are allowed to lock the rom so that you have to get updates through them
edit - and besides, , , 1 - install hspl - 2 - flash chosen rom - 3 - remove hspl.
Takes ten minutes, warranty is still valid, and rom is changed, so no biggie.

yeah talk to ur operator not HTC lol
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Do you actually have the kahonas to follow through with a class action suit because they are not scared they are fighting and taking apple out for copywrite infringement and htc also doesn't give a hoot about xda-developers.
Not startin an arguement with ya just wondering ifyour actually going to go through with it because I have a feeling what they will do is send you a letter back telling you to buzz off to get you to take them to court cuz they don't have the time to deal with consumers.

rogerone said:
Dear Sirs,
I have a question on your policy of locking the phone. Currently I have received my unlock code for my HD2 from my operator Bouygues but you do not allow me to update the software of MY PHONE. Let me make it clear to you: I am the owner of the phone and if I like to change the software even with a risk I can do that because I am the OWNER of the phone. I bought it legally, I got the unlock code from Bouygues so I am entitled to do with my phone what I want to do.
I can even smash it or throw it through a window of the HTC offices if I want to do so. If you do not agree and state that it is not my phone your phone is actually returning to your premises in a somewhat peculiar way. But since it is not my phone but yours this is your problem.
To get this clear: I am willing to go to court and start a class action case against HTC for deliberately and intentionally taking away my liberty as a consumer to choose to use the software in any language I want on a device that I own.
I had a similar issue with Nvidia over providing notebook drivers for their graphical cards and you can check: they provide notebook drivers for their cards now.
I will publish this letter also on xda-developers.com because HTC is illegally limiting me access to the phone I own and I have any rights to do with it what I want to do.
So I ask you to correct this issue and provide an update as soon as possible to prevent me from starting a class action suet against HTC.
Looking forward for your reaction,
Yours faithfully
Roger
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe you own the phone, but look again: you DO NOT own the software that is installed on it.
You only have a 'usage right' to Windows mobile. You are not allowed to resell it, to are not allowed to change it. Even if you buy a second hand phone, you are not a legal user of the OS that was installed on it!
Think twice. You suspect/expect you have all those rights, but YOU DON'T.

Hey, do post the reply you get though.

Without going into legal details-
I think you are right to be unhappy-
However, yes, one would need to carefully read the agreement and licence thing-
But you are right on 1 point: if HTC does not upload their very buggy ROMS for this HTC HD2 quietly brilliant (very quietly) device, then someone needs to do it.
So unless you are sure about the legal details, we should complain to HTC about their numerous bugs and poor support we receive (at least I received that...), and also their lack of updates.
Or the complete lack of information as for the actual content of the new releases (they are all update SMS features): the last one actually moved things around.
I reported it to support but as usual with corporate crap they don't give a sh1te about it.

WHAT???
Please try throwing your phone through htc's office window and let us know how you get on!

HTC ownership
Thanks for all the replies. It worked with NVIDIA though.
Going right away to HTC is the best way. HTC is limiting this technically (remember the nice HTC logo when the update starts).
I don't think HTC's case will hold it in court. HTC is only the owner of the skin and nowhere in the license agreement of Windows Mobile is written that HTC can apply these limitations on software they are licensing themselves. Windows Mobile is made for being upgraded and HTC has no right to limit this feature. HTC is even distributing free upgrades to the next version.
This is a nice case for Nelie Smit Kroes. Remember Apple is under investigation too. The EU will follow.
Roger

Some of you obviously have nothing better to do with your time............

I feel sorry for the HTC customer service reps that get winning emails about people throwing phones through their office windows.

onslaught86 said:
I feel sorry for the HTC customer service reps that get winning emails about people throwing phones through their office windows.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I feel sorry for the poor office worker who ends up getting hit by a flying HD2!
I think the OP might find it to be "his problem" when he ends up facing a criminal damage/assault charge.....
Not that I think this guy would actually throw his phone through their window...
I would enjoy reading that in the news though............

even of htc has nothing in the ts and cs about use of software they do reservethe right to block you from doing certain things with it. until you paid in full for an unlock code. than softwarewould be tmobile

sherlockpwnz said:
even of htc has nothing in the ts and cs about use of software they do reservethe right to block you from doing certain things with it. until you paid in full for an unlock code. than softwarewould be tmobile
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
even then the unlock code doesn't unlock you from the OS licensing. All it does is untether you from that network, nothing at all connected to software licensing, they still stand, it just covers network useage.

Wow, the spirit of the users of XDA-Developers has changed over the years...... the OP has other options than what he outlines in his letter to HTC. I would have thought he joined XDA-Developers to explore these options. But, certainly the OP will enlighten us on HTC's answer. A good guess is that the answer will mince words even less than HTC's response to the Apple complaint, but at any rate, it should be most informative.
It is a quagmire of legal worms to wade through corporate IPR law between HTC's IPR, Microsoft's IPR, and the code of a carrier, which I assume also has much IPR attached.
I should hate to think that a talented HTC employee may be physically endangered by a flying HD2 hurled by a user who was not totally clear on all the issues.
In fairness, the OP should, if he must hurl HTC phones around, hurl it at HTC headquarters in Taiwan. After he learns where the restrictions come in to place, and he has actually traveled to Taiwan for his hurling, well, why, waste a trip to Formosa? He can hurl his HD2 through my window, and I will take proper care of it for him from that point on until it is replaced by a new super duper Windows Phone 7 that will have more restrictions. The OP can then start finding who places restrictions on that new OS.

The op wants to explore the legal way to get HTC to move on things.
1) the customer rep, as some of you said, is definitely NOT a real HTC employee. They are dumbs slaves customer service "layer of crap". --> they don't care
2) To make "them" move (ie anyone with the power to make a decision at HTC's) the only way is to sue them. Of course it will be long, hard, etc...
3) I find "funny" that everyone analyses what the OP said, but are not commenting on the real problem: the HTC HD2 is buggy/
Ok there's some custom rom available, I haven't tried yet (scared to screw my work phone)
BUT it does not excuse that they are giving up on their customers/
I used money to contact "customer service" to find out that i'm screwed with that buggy device.
That's definitely not a good and decent way of caring for their customer. Especially when their already outdated and "deprecated" device cost more than 500euros...
I don't expect "HTC" to provide an excellent device capable of everything, but that it's without consequent bugs is a minimum-
I'm not sure if the OP is in the right or now regarding the legal options he has, or if he actually have the right to complain about that "rom/licence thing"- But I know I heard the same scepticism, cowardism and critics when I mentionned I would sue DELL.
I did it, won, got money and also a brand new laptop...
I'm saying maybe we should listen and evaluate what legal arguments he/she has...instead of commenting passively-
Which of course is fine for some who are using custom roms (criminals in the eyes of HTC, those won't be crying if one day HTC finds them and sue them-even if its really really unlikely)

Am sorry but your letter is shocking rubbish. It makes very little sense so do not be suprised if you do not get a reply.

jagger2k said:
Am sorry but your letter is shocking rubbish. It makes very little sense so do not be suprised if you do not get a reply.
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Ho!
The original post was the actual letter sent to HTC??
yes you need much more than that to achieve our objectives...!!

htchd2sucks said:
Ho!
yes you need much more than that to achieve our objectives...!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our objectives?
Is this the start of some kind of anti-htc rebel alliance?
Uniforms and secret handshakes??.......
"One hand washes the other"
Ive got an idea....... anyone who's dissatisfied with their HD2's can send them to me...........
because I want another one........

hey guys so I felt this might be related. It is to my opinion.
community.htc.com/na/htc-forums/f/87/p/3611/14956.aspx#14956
If no one is aware HTC is trying to stop online dev communities from posting the roms for those phones and cooking them. I think this goes hand in hand with the purchase of the phone and being given an unlock code but not being able to use whatever software you want.
I have posted my opinion and I think that we all should do that same. not saying to start a consumer to corporate flaming war but to make it known to htc that online dev communities are keeping htc afloat because they don't offer for example what xda offers.

[Q] WP7 Legal Issues

Hello,
I guess most of the People flashing WP7 on their HD2 do not have a WP7 License.
And by activating Windows Live services Microsoft gets to know your name, phone number, e-mail adress...
May Microsoft know that you do not own a WP7 device but only flashed it to your HD2?
Does nobody here believe that Microsoft could try to stop people flashing the Rom by using all legal steps possible?
What could happen? How are the possibilities for it to happen/not to happen?
What do you think?

i worried about that ...but i gave all fake information to microsft ...

I doubt microsoft would spend the time and money going after individual users just for using wp7 on their hd2. If anything, they will try to find a fix in their system to know if you have a genuine device or not and stop it from working, and I hear they have already sent a letter to a member of the dft team, which is why I don't think they officially released the rom here on xda. But it wouldn't be worth it for them to legally go after us end users... especially since we basically are using the key we got from them so we can buy apps from their app store, which is putting money in their pockets.

I doubt Microsoft will act on this. Sure, they might take some steps to make future updates more difficult to port or activate, but I doubt they will take legal action against the people running the OS.
For Microsoft, people running WP7 and activating Live services on their HD2 might even be a source of income, since they can buy stuff on the Market Place. I'm pretty sure they will conveniently count all LEO7 users the next time they brag about WP7's market share
Still, handset manufacturers will probably be less happy. If you can run WP7 on your HD2, there's not much incentive to buy a new phone with practically the same hardware just for the OS.

What could happen?
Maybe Microsoft will bring hundreds of users to trial and sentence them to death
No seriously, just imagine the huge effort to get a single user not to use the DFT WPH. This also would most probably result in bad newspaper articles against M$.
WPH is a thing were in my opinion ms should stop trying to be better or harder than appple and finding a middle-way between android and, you know, jailPhone.
Ah, back on topic.. i think nothing serious will happen, maybe ms tries to talk to the devs like they did with chevronWP7, but you wont be sentenced to death nor go to jail or something...

by using a pirate windows, M$ can know more info about you (even your naked foto), but have you ever heared someone be charged with pirate windows with no commercial use?

M/S could use legal action about copywrite theft but it would do is put someone already using a WinMo phone and trying to use a WP7 phone from leaving M/S forever. That would mean quite a few HD2 folks, when deciding about their next phone would blank out M/S.
M/S want WP7 to be a big success and the only way it will be big is if it gets a load of apps developed for it. And the only way it will get the iphone and android developers to make a WP7 app is if there is a big market for it. Now if M/S quote the number of WP7 phones that have been sold they will get a lot lot less than the number of activation licences for WP7 - now what number do you think M/S would want to broadcast? Yes they could exaggerate the number, but the real figure would get out.
Since Apple get a proportion of any apps sold, then no doubt M/S would go along the same lines, and this money would more than make up for the development costs.
The WP7 market share is well below ipohne o/s, Android, Symbian and Blackberry.

There are several possibilities... I think one thing is for sure: soon, they'll stop giving keys without IMEI or proof of purchase. I doubt they just ignore the issue, thinking of apps sales.
The lightest thing they'll do is ban all the keys given since yesterday. Some legit folks will be affected, but they just have to contact Microsoft. Microsoft might try to reach customers who asked for a key, so they confirm the possession of a legit WP7 device.
Can MS have access to the HD2 IMEI? Can they "ban" something besides being able to enter the Market?
If we consider lawsuits, a question arises: will they sue everyone who asked for a key or only those who've used it? Lawyers are expensive, but they are filthy rich!

So now we have a panic room in XDA.
Why are people afraid ? Did you still your HD2? Did you still your key? Will the LiVe services give you ilegitm money or pay app for free?
No I'm not a tief, I just ask a key that allowed that I can try a new WM SO on my WM Device I have just payed the license.
And MS have said to us, we can't have WP7S because of 3 keys issues, but now MS can be glad because we solve that issue for their.....it was MS that could pay some money for our development.
Comeone have you or no a WM Device, with licenses payed when you buy the HD2? I think yes, because I pay a lot of money for my HD2 WM Device.

An Alternative View...
I can understand why some are worrying about this but MS tend to go after larger organisations and even then have been known to be surprisingly reasonable - certainly when compared to the Adobe and Oracle sharks - providing people are trying to true up.
So I doubt they would go after individuals - if they were that litigious there is no way they would dish out activation codes without a few checks and balances.
But here's the other view; up until about 24 hours ago I hated WP7 with a passion. it seemed like a half-assed retrograde step from 6.5.5 and I was sore at MS for selling out to the Apple business model.
I don't eat humble pie too often, but I'm just about to - WP7 is pretty good and it may even be a keeper. It's lively, reasonably good fun and works quite nicely. I even think that Marketplace is as good as and perhaps even better than the App Store - I was surprised how many apps it had, including good quantities of free ones and although App Store must have more, many of them are utter rubbish. The fact that Marketplace lets you try before you buy is a massive plus and should allow users to filter out the rubbish.
Had it not been possible to get the phone activated and were it not for the good XDA-ers (and others) who have helped to unlock the device I wouldn't even have tried it, but when most of one's personal objections are removed, it becomes worth a look at least. My only major gripe at present is the lack of a decent Sat Nav.
So whether they meant to or not, MS have probably ensured that my next device will be a WP7 device and I would have said there was more chance of me eating my own face than doing that up until very recently. And that's without the money I have spent at Marketplace today and what I will spend in future.
Sense on the part of MS - unlikely. Coincidence and a loophole that will be closed soon - probably. Humble pie for tea? Definitely.

well Microsoft UK have stopped giving out codes and ask you to call HTC instead. i cant see Microsoft proceeding with legal as it would seem to be more hassle. i think they will start asking for more information about your phone when you ask for a code

IMO, why would they go so far as to go after individual users??? I believe they might contact DFT at the most. I mean, dont they want as much consumers using and experiencing their OS as possible, suscribing to Zune? Purchasing their apps???? I mean they should see this as more users getting to know and love WP7 and attracting more developers (since a lot of people hacking to these measures might be devs.) And maybe it will lead to users wanting a WP7 device as their next phone after being so pleased with the experience on their HD2... I mean, i doubt this would put a dent on WP7 sales overall since we are such a small # of users doing this. Just make it harder to get the code, and publically say "that they dont encourage/reccomend this and to get a real WP7 device yadda yadda yadda..."
Plus, we already have a license to use one of their OS's (WM6.5) so i bet they can be a bit more easy on us than to say... a port to an Android device
just a thought...

Didn't we already have a topic like this?
I think we got enough of an answer here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10601038&postcount=16

how legal/illegal this might be I am of the belief that microsoft is smart enough to not waste money by going after all us individuals. I do believe that they might try to block us from using wp7 by applying new securityfeatures just like apple does with jailbreak though As said previously MS just stopped giving out keys in the UK and even though they would try to check then your phone would show up as a HD7. If they dig deeper they may be able to see that you really do not own a HD7, but again i do not believe they are willing to spend that much time.

Danation said:
Didn't we already have a topic like this?
I think we got enough of an answer here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10601038&postcount=16
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
good enough for me if thats the case LMAO

May be we should try to write the public letter to Microsoft with request to give us a possibility to buy a license for wp7? Why they allow to upgrade XP to W7 and don't allow to upgrade WM6.5->WP7?

[Q] [DEBATE] Why is MS issuing the activation codes?

Hi,
I would like to start discussion, what do you thing, why is the MS still issuing tha activation codes for WP7. Nobody here could think, that in MS are so stupid, that they did not noticed, that there is successful port of WP7 to HD2 and that they are now issuing the activation keys to those phones.
I am thinking about those possible reasons:
they do not want to piss regular customers, who could have this problem with the activation
they want to have higher marketshare, so they are just overlooking the issue
they will shut all those WP7 and live ids in next update, so they do not care right now
What do you think guys?

I think option 1.

would go for option 1.
only marketshare that would go up is web browser marketshare... they do not sell more phones this way.
what could be a fourth option is that microsoft actually uses the XDA community to test every security system in their OS for loopholes and bugs in an early stage so they can fix all that (without having to look for the problems theirselves) and make sure people are unable to hack their OS when the OS goes into a more complete and final form as the OS is now only in 7.0 and not even released globally.
still option 1 is more likely. they possibly do not have a database with all s/n or imei numbers for all (sold) wp7 phones so they are unable to check.

aenedor said:
I think option 1.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its Option 1. I remember reading on their support site that on some cases that the verification fails (the did not mention the possible reasons) on any windows phone out of the box.

homer.web said:
...
they do not want to piss regular customers, who could have this problem with the activation
they want to have higher marketshare, so they are just overlooking the issue
they will shut all those WP7 and live ids in next update, so they do not care right now
What do you think guys?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Definitely #1. When I called technical support, it seemed like the woman I talked with had done this before and she knew exactly what I was talking about. She asked if I was using WP7 and when I said yes, she even said "Oh, well that's why you need an activation code." I think I read somewhere that even if you're using a WP7 device, doing a hard reset on the phone would cause you to need a new activation code, so it's not out of the ordinary for them to receive calls about it I suppose.
#3 is something I'm a bit worried about in the back of my mind, but the thing is my phone identifies itself as an HD7, so I'm not sure if MS would be able to tell it wasn't. I also don't think it's worth their time and money to look into the issue since in the bigger picture, the amount of users who haven't bought an "offical" WP7 device is relatively small I would think. Another thing is they're now getting money from me, since while I have absolutely no interest in buying a new WP7 device, I'm now buying apps/games and will probably buy some music through Zune (really digging the software).

I don’t think there is a downside for MS at the moment. From what I understand, the HD2 is one of the few (last gen) phones capable of running WP7 and the more people that use WP7 the sooner that apps that are popular for other OS's will be created for WP. More money for MS but more importantly, quicker adoption by the general public because the marketplace will quickly catch up with Apple and Droid.
From my limited use of WP7, it’s a great addition. Different thinking in its design but a distinct lack of business and productivity tools in the marketplace is going to hold me back from a using this as my daily OS.

Not a bad thought
I say #1 for sure, though i fear #3 to be honest ;-)

I am highly impressed with Windows Phone 7, and Microsoft may have realized that someone like me may make a WP7 device their next phone purchase.

1 and 2, please not 3.

It's obviously 1 as there have been several actual WP7 handsets needing activation also - that said, there is nothing stopping them from killing all the HD2 codes at any given time. The IMEI still identifies the phone as a HD2 rather than an HD7 so whenever they feel the need...
They could also go as far as banning your Live account from any future access to Zune and Xbox Live due to this - both the one used on your phone and the one you [may have] given them during your phonecall.

I was thinking #2, but i'm reading more and more people now not getting codes. therefore i guess it's #1.
will be very interesting to see what happens when the update comes along. ?will you dare to try it? will marketplace and apps stop working even if you don't install it?

Why should MS actually have a problem with 5 to 10 000 enthusiats that are flashing WP7 on their HD2's? I don't think that will affect sales of new WP7 phones as the HD2 is not produced anymore anyway.

ill take number 3 for 500.00 Alex kidding
I truly believe MS is going to lock us out from Live services similar to the same issue the xbox 360 with a custom FW have,they do a massive band of xbox 360 systems from xbox live service a couple of times a year.
Although we are not pirating any games such in the case of xbox 360 flashed with custom firmware (and yes some people are going to say some use their flashed xbox 360 to backup their games I truly don't care, save it for your mama) just modifying our phones but it seems to me as one way for them to screw us over.

1 & 2 & - I fear - even 3

homer.web said:
Hi,
I would like to start discussion, what do you thing, why is the MS still issuing tha activation codes for WP7. Nobody here could think, that in MS are so stupid, that they did not noticed, that there is successful port of WP7 to HD2 and that they are now issuing the activation keys to those phones.
I am thinking about those possible reasons:
they do not want to piss regular customers, who could have this problem with the activation
they want to have higher marketshare, so they are just overlooking the issue
they will shut all those WP7 and live ids in next update, so they do not care right now
What do you think guys?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You do know that Microsoft and HTC along with the rest of them actually read everything posted on these XDA forms.
Why did HTC stop giving out sd cards when everybody started saying there cards were faulty!
Think about it!!!!!!
Russ

Don't be too paranoic. A few years ago Microsoft politely asked XDA not to allow the posting of custom ROM's on it's servers. NOTE: They didn't ask for discontinuation of ROM development, although they could do this legally. They just asked that the ROM's are not hosted on XDA. MS knows this site very well since Day 1.
Same goes for HTC. You look at it in another way: XDA is a perfect testing field for all sorts of things. Here you have a bunch of relatively competent enthusiasts that are ready to do almost everything to theis phones That's a very valuable resource for companies like MS and HTC.
Think about HTC. Their phones are always hackable unlike the phones from other brands. Have asked yourself why this is the case?

TheOnly1 said:
Don't be too paranoic. A few years ago Microsoft politely asked XDA not to allow the posting of custom ROM's on it's servers. NOTE: They didn't ask for discontinuation of ROM development, although they could do this legally. They just asked that the ROM's are not hosted on XDA. MS knows this site very well since Day 1.
Same goes for HTC. You look at it in another way: XDA is a perfect testing field for all sorts of things. Here you have a bunch of relatively competent enthusiasts that are ready to do almost everything to theis phones That's a very valuable resource for companies like MS and HTC.
Think about HTC. Their phones are always hackable unlike the phones from other brands. Have asked yourself why this is the case?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is correct. You have hit the nail on the head. HTC & Microsoft like what the XDA Devs do with these ROMs, as it will enhance them to produce better ones. Just think back a few months, they were going to release the wp7 update for the HD2. And then not? Why.. Probably to see if the Devs could do a hack. Also why would microsoft make some tools available to enhance these ROMs. Yes you are correct, they like what's being accomplished.
Its the same with the activation keys, they now have none stop requests!! But they will issue them. Will have to wait and see if the new update works, or crashes it?? I will give it a try.
Russ

A 'carphone warehouse' insider has informed me that they recieved a bulliten stating that some batches of HTC phones were shipped prior to being activated by MS.
MS apparently have a list of new activation numbers for these handsets but may not have a record of any IMEI numbers etc (he wasn't sure how much they knew about the handsets)
Basically it seems that authentication will also fail on some original HTC WP7 handsets (like the HD7) so MS are prepared to issue those with new activation numbers.
Personally, when I gave my IMEI for my HD2 to get the activation code I changed the last 3 digits and they still said 'ah..yes it's a HTC phone, is that correct?', so might be a good idea to base a made up IMEI on a real one.

The way I see it:
This community and the readers are the one who have spent their time to make their phone compatible with Microsoft so they can use MICROSOFT more. They are saving Microsoft marketing money and expanding its share and generate revenue through apps for them.
Microsoft has always been smart with this. They let the piracy of Windows in ASIA to slit through on basis of expansion of market share. Microsoft should know better than anybody else, why most of the planet use windows,
Microsoft has got the label of M$ but in all fairness, they have been nice considering the power and their dominance. They have special discounts for students, their OS provides the opportunity for people to build any system they want at very very affordable costs.
Their Windows Mobile 7 app development kit virtually has made it simple for app developers to develop apps and make money.
(obviously, they win but at the same time, reduces the production budget for start up folks)
I bought 4 copies of Windows 7 PRO x64 through student discount. Who else would give me so much discount to enable me to buy so many fantastic products?
sorry for the rant and fanboyism. I thought it was justified.

ever thought that maybe they don't know about the hd2 running wp7, my friend had to contact ms for activation for his hd7...

article: Microsoft responds to HTC HD2 Windows Phone 7 ROMs

A Microsoft spokesperson issued the following statement:
“We encourage people to use their Windows Phone as supplied by the manufacturer to ensure the best possible user experience. The scenario described is not supported at this time.”
http://www.winrumors.com/microsoft-responds-to-htc-hd2-windows-phone-7-roms/
I read that as open season for the moment....

People lets make some noise on there....

Mouhahahahahahahaha
EDIT: BTW, When I called for the Activation. They gave it to me (but I had already used the one provided here). Then they called me again today just to make sure everything is operating smoothly. I love their Customer service

and this is how the communtiy responded when MS said no!!! the HD2 has too many buttons.

Microsoft would be crazy not to support WP7 on HD2. Of course they encourage it now..!!

Microsoft has always been rather "friendly" with people experimenting with their products. Look at Kinect, HD2, 360, 7, etc. They are not encouraging it but they are not shutting off all doors either...
After all, it's free advertising and more people using their products...

They learn from it as well!!

“We encourage people to use their Windows Phone as supplied by the manufacturer to ensure the best possible user experience. The scenario described is not supported at this time.”
I think the phrase 'at this time' is a bit of a giveaway. In the future maybe???
Whatever people think of Microsoft, they do try to listen to the feedback given by their customers. 'Cracked' software comes with the territory for any OS developer. They could block any unlocks, but that would lead to other methods to bypass this.
No software is crack-proof.
Windows 7 activation was bypassed ages ago, and Microsoft haven't actively tried to stop this.
I'm not a huge MS fan, but hats off to them for trying to improve their software and OS year on year.....

geddeeee said:
“We encourage people to use their Windows Phone as supplied by the manufacturer to ensure the best possible user experience. The scenario described is not supported at this time.”
I think the phrase 'at this time' is a bit of a giveaway. In the future maybe???
Whatever people think of Microsoft, they do try to listen to the feedback given by their customers. 'Cracked' software comes with the territory for any OS developer. They could block any unlocks, but that would lead to other methods to bypass this.
No software is crack-proof.
Windows 7 activation was bypassed ages ago, and Microsoft haven't actively tried to stop this.
I'm not a huge MS fan, but hats off to them for trying to improve their software and OS year on year.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The reason is there is no need to actively fight the activation cracking. It became a battle between the people who want to crack will crack no matter what. So what they did was make it as inconvenient as possible. Even when Windows 7 was cracked, unforseen checks caused the OS to relock itself and etc. More cracks had to be made to bypass the checks that werent seen.
With Windows phone, It's very likely they they don't care as long as people are using it since you can't exactly go out and buy windows phone 7 and install it like you can with the desktop OS. Plus, who knows how much they charge the phone manufacturers if anything.
The chances are, they either don't charge anything or charge very little and expect to make up for it when people buy content from the marketplace.
The phone itself was specifically designed with the pre-release specs for WP7 and with the HD7 was released and was basically the same, it was known then that eventually someone would get WP7 working on the HD2. Microsoft probably realized it and at this point they are going to just not support anyone using the HD2 as a WP7 device which is perfectly reasonable. The HD2 has some bugs to iron out for WP7 and why should Microsoft have to be responsible for supporting it.
This however isn't going to stop idiots who run WP7 on the HD2 from possibly calling Microsoft because of WP7 issues.

Hmmmm, the link at the top has had many HD2 WP7 users reply and left their view. Be careful because to leave your own comment they ask for an email. Make sure it isnt the email you used to activate WP7.
Putting that aside it is nice to see that Microsoft are not trying to slam the doors shut. Lets see what the updates bring and then see if they mean what they say.

Hilarity ensues!
ChrisTran206 said:
This however isn't going to stop idiots who run WP7 on the HD2 from possibly calling Microsoft because of WP7 issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, the clueless will call regardless...
Honestly though, I didn't know what to think regarding MS's response. I guess I assumed they would shut it down asap. Stunning revelation for me actually and I have new found respect for them in embracing insteading of shunning the enevitable.

maybe MS did add the HD2 to the compatability list a long time ago, but forgot that it was still there, so the customer service just did the right thing.

DannyBiker said:
Microsoft has always been rather "friendly" with people experimenting with their products. Look at Kinect, HD2, 360, 7, etc. They are not encouraging it but they are not shutting off all doors either...
After all, it's free advertising and more people using their products...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not quiet sure how "friendly" they are with people flashing their 360 with a custom firmware unless u call "friendly" getting your ass ban from xbox live and ur account cancel

DannyBiker said:
Microsoft has always been rather "friendly" with people experimenting with their products. Look at Kinect, HD2, 360, 7, etc. They are not encouraging it but they are not shutting off all doors either
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DennisCSUF said:
Not quiet sure how "friendly" they are with people flashing their 360 with a custom firmware unless u call "friendly" getting your ass ban from xbox live and ur account cancel
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, no #%$
I thought his comparison with the 360 was a little off. And M$'s response on the Kinect hack was don't mess with it, until they backtracked and said they made it that way all along.
I guess we will see what happens after the next WP 7 release...

they ONLY reason they are not supplying wp7 for HD 2 is becuz of too many button on our HD 2.. they are stupid.. omg =.=

sooner or later they will put an end to this, and sooner or later hackers will find a way to get pass it.

It comes down to this. its all business. MS wanted a new phone to release its new OS so they got the HD7. who in their right mind in the business world would want to spend millions on a new OS and make it work on past devices before any new devices would come out? and if they make it compatible with hd2, then why not some other windows 6.5 phones? see the chain they'd have to deal with here?
Now as far as their kindness towards the crackers of wp7, that's the only way they could react. if they sound like arse's, ppl would rebel and look down at ms like they do at apple. They aren't going to release some form of fix for the crack right away, so no point in getting mad about it. in my eyes they are behind the scenes saying, have your fun..we'll block it again eventually so you have to crack it again. Meanwhile, they are saving their face, time and money to try to develop a quick fix, and letting people all get drawn into the new OS. Its brilliant. just like our developers here at XDA!

cx1 said:
A Microsoft spokesperson issued the following statement:
“We encourage people to use their Windows Phone as supplied by the manufacturer to ensure the best possible user experience. The scenario described is not supported at this time.”
http://www.winrumors.com/microsoft-responds-to-htc-hd2-windows-phone-7-roms/
I read that as open season for the moment....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think Tom Warren(winrumors) has got his story wrong!
"Some users have contacted Microsoft’s official support lines requesting codes after falsely claiming their device is a HTC HD7. Microsoft has been issuing codes to allow the devices to access Windows Live services."
I never claimed to microsoft that I had a HD7, I was asked why I needed a code. I told them it was for Windows Phone 7, not a HD7. They gave me the code for my WP7 what I told them, so i have not given them false info.
So Tony get your facts right.
Russ

Whither the Upgrade
nzxtneo said:
I guess we will see what happens after the next WP 7 release...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. We shall all see what our efforts and desires bring us when the next release of WP7 comes out.
We'll all get the upgrade cleanly, OTA and we'll be smiling.
The upgrade will lock (or maybe even brick) our phones at which point all the small-minded people will scream at M$ for ruining their phones, which they had already ruined by running WP7 on a non-supported phone.
Or the upgrade won't work on our phones; we'll all be on the current version. Still functional but now it's an old OS (like 6.5). And we'll be asking for new ROMs.
And hey, if it's the first item we'll get copy/paste.

LOL. If it's all about copy/paste then we should "upgrade" back to WM 6.5...It has this functionality, as well as multitasking
I'm personally staying for a while with WP7...I like "The Harvest" too much