OS uses a crap load of CPU resources just for scrolling. Hell I'm starting to think it's the OS and not the hardware that makes scrolling so laggy. Open up the System Panal app and scroll the active apps up and down real fast and watch the CPU percentage sky rocket to 70-75% and watch the CPU clock pretty much maxes out...WTF :O. I did the same thing on my Hero and it maxes out 99.9%. When I scroll slow and the CPU spikes the phone lags. So it's not the hardware it's the horrible optimized OS.
I think the way its setup it doesn't use the graphics chip to render graphics on the homescreens. This is why some stuff is choppy. I think they changed this in Froyo though as it is blistering fast no matter if you have live wallpapers running or whatelse is going on. After going from 2.1 to 2.2 update on my Nexus it was like night and day difference, Froyo will send the EVO over the top, can't wait to see an update!
Android is a parts bin product made by a bunch of google developers....ya it's a joke.
Ya, get a froyo rom.. its soo much faster. And its also the developers of apps that fail. I watched some Google I/O videos the other day about optimizations, ListView in particular. If developers keep creating more views as users scroll down, instead of reusing the ones that are no longer on screen, scroll speed would improve dramatically. But like i said, froyo is where its at. Get the Evolution v8 rom with RevA, its extremely fast and stable. Camera support will be coming soon im sure though.
roybotnik said:
Android is a parts bin product made by a bunch of google developers....ya it's a joke.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So why do you even bothering commenting on a board that's obviously about people who like Android?
I'm going to assume it was sarcasm
First of all I'd like to thank darkstone for these awesome tweaks.
I was wondering how these performance gains were obtained. Did they come at any cost to video quality and do they cause an increase in all 3d performance or just in certain situations? Can we expect anymore optimizations?
Is it at all possible to overclock our GPUs so we can get some decent performance out of our crappy z430s?
they tried but came to the conclusion its impossible h**p://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=710850&highlight=overclocking+gpu
Damn it, that sucks
Thanks for the link.
i think it is all about crap htc drivers , the original htc drivers for all of its phones are sh*tty what proves my point is the darkstone graphics tweaks that gives results better than stock android devices with same gpu on neocore (nexus (28.6) desire (28) ,evo 4g (25 ) HD2 with fix (31.5)
The speed improvement is noticeable with that graphic tweak, i have tired to play Asphalt 5 and it is much much smoother than previous build , even faster , smoother than the NexusOne and Desire.
can be del.
I hope there is additional room for improvement at least with driver optimizations. Real bummer that we can't OC though. Looking at that other thread, it looked like HTC didn't feel that the kernel needed to have control over GPU clocks...
I'm running stock 2.3.2 with netarchy 1.2.5 bfs. When overclocked to 1.3 my nexus s gave a quadrant score of 3052.
When the SGSII went for quadrant it got 3053. That's something to us NS owners eh?
As an android user if there is one thing I never trusted are the Quadrant Scores of a custom Kernel.
I get a score of 2241 with the last MIUI release. But onestly I'm not so confident this is a good basis for a comparison.
quadrant-shmadrant.
who cares, what exactly can the fastest phone do that the nexus s can't at this point in time that's of any use? now, wait for the next version of android for phones... that'll hopefully allow the user to import 3d-models with boning data direct from a 3d package, improved graphics rendering - which should see an increase of around %15 iirc - and then we're talking.
but of course, the nexus s will be able to do all that first!
MarkusPO said:
quadrant-shmadrant.
who cares, what exactly can the fastest phone do that the nexus s can't at this point in time that's of any use? now, wait for the next version of android for phones... that'll hopefully allow the user to import 3d-models with boning data direct from a 3d package, improved graphics rendering - which should see an increase of around %15 iirc - and then we're talking.
but of course, the nexus s will be able to do all that first!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Take 1080p video, zoom the camera, play just about any video you put on it without converting out of the box. Have touchwiz or senseui features whatever the new ones may be. All very useful if you have a use for them.
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App
I'm going to be stuck with this phone for a while.
All other phones just seem so, flat. I love this phone so much.
Now, after approx 1/2 year our 7.7 (I have an 6810 wifi only) get smooth.
Stock ROM: No IPad-killer. To slow.
First CM10 builds: also not fluid enough. (remember in the tablet is a 1,4 GHz dualcore and fast GPU!)
Now since the last works of loccera on CM10, the tablet is quite fast. I'm using PA 2.20 at the moment. But it is just a new "distribution" (in linux sence: a compilation of sources and patches (nevertheless thank you very much for the great work andoguide.fr!!!!!) and NOT new development "under the hood". - It seems, just loccera is the only one who is able to do the hard coding work; including the CM10 basis for PA 2.20 for our 6800/6810 tablets.
So my question is: if it would be possible to merge additional governors to the kernel?
- smartassV2 is really awesome in fast response and will reduce lags in GUI (and is battery friendly).
- other govenors are also quite worth to try. like "pegasusq" or "hyper" (from 9100 and all newer equinox samsung devices)
As I know from my experiences with kernels on the galaxy ace 1 and now on the S2 9100 the last smoothness just come from the governor. So now, CM10 for 6800/6810 is just one step away to get be one of the smoothest/fastes tablets. - Would be nice to make the final tuning of the kernel l!!!
I suggest, it is not too hard to include the governors patches into the kernel!?!
Code basis should be very similar to the kernels of other equinox ARM processors (a lot of samsung phones have the same kind of processor and also MALI GPU as our tablet.)
Can somebody help??
p.s.
I'm still not allowed to post in the developer section. Therefore I must do here. If other feels the same. Please refer to this request in the CM10 section of loccera! Thank you!
GNUDroid said:
Now, after approx 1/2 year our 7.7 (I have an 6810 wifi only) get smooth.
Stock ROM: No IPad-killer. To slow.
First CM10 builds: also not fluid enough. (remember in the tablet is a 1,4 GHz dualcore and fast GPU!)
Now since the last works of loccera on CM10, the tablet is quite fast. I'm using PA 2.20 at the moment. But it is just a new "distribution" (in linux sence: a compilation of sources and patches (nevertheless thank you very much for the great work andoguide.fr!!!!!) and NOT new development "under the hood". - It seems, just loccera is the only one who is able to do the hard coding work; including the CM10 basis for PA 2.20 for our 6800/6810 tablets.
So my question is: if it would be possible to merge additional governors to the kernel?
- smartassV2 is really awesome in fast response and will reduce lags in GUI (and is battery friendly).
- other govenors are also quite worth to try. like "pegasusq" or "hyper" (from 9100 and all newer equinox samsung devices)
As I know from my experiences with kernels on the galaxy ace 1 and now on the S2 9100 the last smoothness just come from the governor. So now, CM10 for 6800/6810 is just one step away to get be one of the smoothest/fastes tablets. - Would be nice to make the final tuning of the kernel l!!!
I suggest, it is not too hard to include the governors patches into the kernel!?!
Code basis should be very similar to the kernels of other equinox ARM processors (a lot of samsung phones have the same kind of processor and also MALI GPU as our tablet.)
Can somebody help??
p.s.
I'm still not allowed to post in the developer section. Therefore I must do here. If other feels the same. Please refer to this request in the CM10 section of loccera! Thank you!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It would also be great to see overclocking added (selection for 1600MHz in the stock performance options)
Here is the awesome Sense 8 Transformation Mod for S.Rom JW 5.4.0 by @krazie1.
I know this isn't kernel related but i felt this was so awesome it deserved an op. Enjoy!!!
Credit to sun_dream & topjohnwu for such an incredible rom. Credit to topjohnwu for Sense 7 UI.
-Added Sense 8 Backup
-Added Sense 8 PowerStripWidget
-Added Sense 8 Setup Wizard
-Added Sense 8 Data Usage
-Added Sense 8 Car
-Added Sense 8 Browser
-Added Sense 8 Calendar
-Added Sense 8 Flashlight
-Added Sense 8 Gallery
-Added Sense 8 Home
-Added Sense 8 HTC Advantage
-Added Sense 8 Dialer
-Added Sense 8 EPS Launcher
-Added Sense 8 File Manager
-Added Sense 8 Lockscreen
-Added Sense 8 Power Manager
-Added Sense 8 RingtoneTrimmer
-Added Sense 8 Sound Recorder
-Added Sense 8 Voice
-Added Sense 8 Weather
-Added Sense 8 Mail
-Added Sense 8 Message
-Added Sense 8 Settings
-Added Sense 8 SystemUI (Fixes from Andybones, Thanks)
-Added Sense 8 Touchpal
-Added Sense 8 Wifi Hotspot
-Added Sense 8 Clock
-Added Sense 8 Sounds
-Added Sense 8 Bootanimation
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Hey everyone, here is another update to the Sense 8 Mod for S.Rom JW 5.4.0. This includes updated apps, that's it. Full Changes below:
Credit to sun_dream & topjohnwu for such an incredible rom.
-Added HTC Boost+ 1.50.792952
-Updated HTC Calendar 8.20.776481
-Updated HTC File Manager 7.70.777529
-Updated HTC Sense Home 8.14.781908
-Updated HTC Weather 8.00.786932
https://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=24651430732236373
Sense 7 QuickSettings Mod for S.Rom JW 5.4.0
-Sense 7 Quicksettings
-Sense 7 Recents
-Small AM/PM
DOWNLOAD:
https://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=24651430732234783
Hi guys I thought I'd start this thread so we can talk about anything kernel related, this can be anything from battery to benchmarks to trouble shooting or best setups for hotplugs governors or schedulers.
I hope this may be a friendly and helpful thread with anyone welcome to contribute.
Massive thanks to @LeeDroid for am amazing rom.
Thanks also to @lyapota
Thanks @flar2
Thanks @MassStash
Thanks @PwnCakes193
Thanks @Evolutionmods
Thanks @clumsy1991
I'd also like to thank all the people involved in the threads used for the info.
More thanks to follow...
[quote name="JellyKitkatLoli" post=60504903]Since there's so much kernel talk on this thread I am just going to sum this for once and all at least of today.
Disclaimer : The organization Performance>Battery goes by how it is right from the box, No kernel APPs, no anything, just defult settings the kernels come with and what you should expect from those, however they are also a great guideline to know what you're going to get primarily, even after tweaking, This is based on My experience along with other User's from the Kernel's respective threads and from different ROM threads.
Best performance : https://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=95916177934546156 And in case you're doubting here's a little peek from AnTuTu, Remember no tweaks
[Just for Reference, Stock is around 45k~46k.] , Daily usage is a bit faster too along with gaming, I suggest to add gboost and usbfast charge. However the battery life is like I've said down below IS lower than what it normally COULD be under the right tweaks [Compared to STOCK] but it still is a monstrous battery life (Compared to the other devices on the market hehe ), and if you LOVE [every other Kernel will only be less by what? 0.1 MS? This is for the powerusers] foresaid stuff such as gaming and multitasking this is the right choice .
Hybird going more towards performance : http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/orig-development/kernel-quantum-t2993647
All in one Hybrid : http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/orig-development/kernel-lonelyx-001-t2881605 Recommendation : Universal ramdisk
Hybrid : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2705613 / http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/development/kernel-hypernova1-3-0-t2955537 Alternative [Port] for CDMA Devices ; VZW&Sprint.
Best Battery life : http://themikmik.com/showthread.php?16336-KERNEL-SENSE-ALL-M8-VARIANTS-BeyondStockᵀᴹ-v2-1-0 - Read the thread and you'll understand why it has the best battery life, It's just stock with SUPPORT THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE, If you like STOCK kernel and wanna use MultiBoot this is the answer, Expect stock-like performance but a bit better battery.
Pick what you think is best for YOU, I have sorted it out based on performance > battery life (Furthermore all have great performance, SD Exceeds at that though.
My favorite Kernels Would be; Skydragon as I like squeezing my performance to the limit,Lyapota's kernel as it's working great overall but it can be iffy, BeyondStock since it's just the best solution for a roadwarrior and back2basic.
I would do the amount of bugs user's find and encounter however it's very user specific and mileage may vary, So sorting the kernels and organizing them by battery and performance is the best. [/QUOTE]
Thanks @JellyKitkatLoli
Code craft powerhouse kernel.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3005669
ElementalX kernel.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2705613
Leedroid kernel.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3143448
Remember! Some kernels come with init.d scripts to set values at boot, you may want to check your init.d folder and delete old kernel scripts or you can just dirty flash your rom before flashing a new kernel.
Battery saving tips....
for those wanted to squeeze as much juice as they can out of our m8's.
In accounts and sync go to google and uncheck any syncs you don't need,
In developer options uncheck show animations and allow mock locations,
In display and gestures uncheck ambient display you can also turn off motion gestures if you don't need them and then of auto brightness,
set your brightness manually and try to keep it below 30%
Set screen off time out to 30 seconds or less.
In sound settings uncheck pocket mode, sounds and vibrate.
Turn off auto sync and auto rotate.
use HTC power saver, most of the time performance is perfectly adequate unless playing high end games in which case to can turn it off,
Set GPS to device only not battery saving google messed that up lol.
You can use app ops to deny wake up on syncing apps like google play services facebook and google + ect.
And of course use greenify to hibernate games and apps that are not in constant use,
it's not wise to hibernate sync apps like google+ and facebook and google services this leads to excessive wakelocks,
It's also not wise to hibernate system apps unless it's apps you can download from the playstore and they're not important.
Here is some great info on battery saving.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2785128
Here some some info thanks to @MassStash about mako hotplug it's interesting reading if your looking to try different hotplugs.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2532422
Some info on governors and schedulers again [email protected]
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1369817
I found this also it's pretty in depth.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3048957
IMO best free kernel tuning app.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2986129
Here is a modded Google Play services with less wakelocks.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3078082
Some info on PVS.bin
Thanks @MassStash
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2807173
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2228246
Here's a guide on tweaking interactive governor
Thanks @ MassStash
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2769899
Here's a hack to disable multitasking restrictions on HTC phones.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3039223
Here's a hack to increase fps for better performance.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3108786
Here's a nice new tweak package you might want to try it does a nice job speeding things up thanks @leather.face"Golden Droid Tweaks" modified
for the - LeeDroid
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3240370
LeeDroid Rom kernel discussion.
Here is a modified version of elemental x with better memory management and zram and improved battery life. Thanks @alex6600
ElementalX repack
This repack of Flar2 ElementalX 7.00 kernel.
Changes:
* Add LZ4 compression/decompression
* LZ4 compression for zram (faster than default LZO)
* Multithreading compression for zram
* Memory/Math related function optimization
* Disabled some logging
* Changed compiler to Linaro 4.9.4 for Cortex A15 from Christopher83
Warning
Installer make some changes in /etc/fstab.swap file!
New file should looks like this*:
# Android fstab file for enabling zRAM on 2GB device
# zramsize is mandatory and indicates how much uncompressed memory you want the zram area to hold.
# Compression ratios in the 30-50% range are usually observed.
#
/dev/block/zram0 none swap defaults zramsize=858993460,swapprio=1000
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
* By default, m8 uses 800 MB swap.
Downloads:
New version of ElementalX repack 7.00.3.
This repack of Flar2 ElementalX 7.00 kernel.
Changes:
* GPU default freq 330MHz (like in stock). UI will be smoother.
* Improved compression algorithms
* Minor improvements
!!UPDATE!!
ElementalX repack 7.00.4.
This repack of Flar2 ElementalX 7.00 kernel.
Changes:
* Enabled KSM with HTC KSM Policy (improve power drop impact when KSM is on)
* Motorola's MSM memcpy enhancements
Download ElementalX repack 7.00.4
By default KSM is off. For enable/disable and tuning KSM parameters- use EX Kernel Manager from flar2.
For tuning tons of kernel parameters- I recommend to use EX Kernel Manager from flar2.
Thanks mate ?
Good deal!!! Did you try lONElyx yet?
bford152 said:
Good deal!!! Did you try lONElyx yet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Been on it for a while mate. I really like the customisation.
LeeDroid said:
Thanks mate ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought I'd try and take some strain off lol.
Using lonelyx and pretty satisfied...
bford152 said:
Good deal!!! Did you try lONElyx yet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also recently tried hyper but had sooner minor issues so I reverted to lyapota for these time being.
elandroido said:
Using lonelyx and pretty satisfied...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's an awesome kernel for testing purposes.
JellyKitkatLoli said:
Since there's so much kernel talk on this thread I am just going to sum this for once and all at least of today.
Disclaimer : The organization Performance>Battery goes by how it is right from the box, No kernel APPs, no anything, just defult settings the kernels come with and what you should expect from those, however they are also a great guideline to know what you're going to get primarily, even after tweaking, This is based on My experience along with other User's from the Kernel's respective threads and from different ROM threads.
Best performance : https://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=95916177934546156 And in case you're doubting here's a little peek from AnTuTu, Remember no tweaks
http://i.imgur.com/wC5UMuZ.png [Just for Reference, Stock is around 45k~46k.] , Daily usage is a bit faster too along with gaming, I suggest to add gboost and usbfast charge. However the battery life is like I've said down below IS lower than what it normally COULD be under the right tweaks [Compared to STOCK] but it still is a monstrous battery life (Compared to the other devices on the market hehe ), and if you LOVE [every other Kernel will only be less by what? 0.1 MS? This is for the powerusers] foresaid stuff such as gaming and multitasking this is the right choice .
Hybird going more towards performance : http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/orig-development/kernel-quantum-t2993647
All in one Hybrid : http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/orig-development/kernel-lonelyx-001-t2881605 Recommendation : Universal ramdisk
Hybrid : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2705613 / http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/development/kernel-hypernova1-3-0-t2955537 Alternative [Port] for CDMA Devices ; VZW&Sprint.
Best Battery life : http://themikmik.com/showthread.php?16336-KERNEL-SENSE-ALL-M8-VARIANTS-BeyondStockᵀᴹ-v2-1-0 - Read the thread and you'll understand why it has the best battery life, It's just stock with SUPPORT THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE, If you like STOCK kernel and wanna use MultiBoot this is the answer, Expect stock-like performance but a bit better battery.
Pick what you think is best for YOU, I have sorted it out based on performance > battery life (Furthermore all have great performance, SD Exceeds at that though.
BEST KERNEL EVER THOUGH : LEEDROID LINK : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 @LeeDroid I would be glad if you would add this to your first post or something so people would actually look at this and take something that fits thier needs.
My favorite Kernels Would be; Skydragon as I like squeezing my performance to the limit,Lyapota's kernel as it's working great overall but it can be iffy, BeyondStock since it's just the best solution for a roadwarrior and back2basic.
I would do the amount of bugs user's find and encounter however it's very user specific and mileage may vary, So sorting the kernels and organizing them by battery and performance is the best.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Think this quote belongs here
smeejaytee said:
It's an awesome kernel for testing purposes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Testing? I actually don't wanna test. I just want a stable kernel capable of HD audio. That's why I chose lonelyx. You think I could have a better choice?
JellyKitkatLoli said:
Think this quote belongs here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you was going to say I might need your help in this one lol.
JellyKitkatLoli said:
Think this quote belongs here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How do I get this moved to the op I wonder.
Nice idea here dude so what setup is every1 using?
smeejaytee said:
How do I get this moved to the op I wonder.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You could quote it and use hide
JellyKitkatLoli said:
Since there's so much kernel talk on this thread I am just going to sum this for once and all at least of today.
Disclaimer : The organization Performance>Battery goes by how it is right from the box, No kernel APPs, no anything, just defult settings the kernels come with and what you should expect from those, however they are also a great guideline to know what you're going to get primarily, even after tweaking, This is based on My experience along with other User's from the Kernel's respective threads and from different ROM threads.
Best performance : https://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=95916177934546156 And in case you're doubting here's a little peek from AnTuTu, Remember no tweaks
http://i.imgur.com/wC5UMuZ.png [Just for Reference, Stock is around 45k~46k.] , Daily usage is a bit faster too along with gaming, I suggest to add gboost and usbfast charge. However the battery life is like I've said down below IS lower than what it normally COULD be under the right tweaks [Compared to STOCK] but it still is a monstrous battery life (Compared to the other devices on the market hehe ), and if you LOVE [every other Kernel will only be less by what? 0.1 MS? This is for the powerusers] foresaid stuff such as gaming and multitasking this is the right choice .
Hybird going more towards performance : http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/orig-development/kernel-quantum-t2993647
All in one Hybrid : http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/orig-development/kernel-lonelyx-001-t2881605 Recommendation : Universal ramdisk
Hybrid : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2705613 / http://forum.xda-developers.com/htc-one-m8/development/kernel-hypernova1-3-0-t2955537 Alternative [Port] for CDMA Devices ; VZW&Sprint.
Best Battery life : http://themikmik.com/showthread.php?16336-KERNEL-SENSE-ALL-M8-VARIANTS-BeyondStockᵀᴹ-v2-1-0 - Read the thread and you'll understand why it has the best battery life, It's just stock with SUPPORT THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE, If you like STOCK kernel and wanna use MultiBoot this is the answer, Expect stock-like performance but a bit better battery.
Pick what you think is best for YOU, I have sorted it out based on performance > battery life (Furthermore all have great performance, SD Exceeds at that though.
My favorite Kernels Would be; Skydragon as I like squeezing my performance to the limit,Lyapota's kernel as it's working great overall but it can be iffy, BeyondStock since it's just the best solution for a roadwarrior and back2basic.
I would do the amount of bugs user's find and encounter however it's very user specific and mileage may vary, So sorting the kernels and organizing them by battery and performance is the best.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like this
Or do this Reply>copy the post from the
(I've fixed something, so Lee won't get mentioned everytime)
elandroido said:
Testing? I actually don't wanna test. I just want a stable kernel capable of HD audio. That's why I chose lonelyx. You think I could have a better choice?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think lyapota had the best sound quality I've heard in a kernel TBH. Better choice is your opinion I can only say try them out and make your decision, there is a kernel guide in the op now mate, it should explain a few things.
BioAlien said:
Nice idea here dude so what setup is every1 using?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At the moment I'm running stock like settings but planning to learn to tweak governors and such to customise my experience.
@smeejaytee ... thats about time someone in here figured this put ... thx a lot for this thread, mate ... looking forward to many hours in here compiling and refining our devices to utter perfection on top of the most perfect rom ever
I thought it might help there isn't really anywhere to talk about this stuff.