Database Users

posibility of multitouch on universal or similar htc phones

before we go any further, id like to point out im not a complete luddite and ive thought about this a fair bit before posting...
looking at the iphone vids, i notice that multi touch pretty much means dual touch. i expect their technology allows for more than two fingers, but the space and OS dont really allow for this.
in playing with my univ, i notice it does some kind of averaging between to fingers - so possibly at a low level u could get multi-touch - but logic says if this is possible, sure it would have been done by now.
my logic also says this:
if u get a second touch screen plate (i beleive that the touch screen element is a layer over the screen - if this isnt true, my logic is flawed) and install it over the top of the current screen - but rotated 180 degrees, and there is the provisioning for a second touch screen input (probably unlikely but surely u could hijack something else such as the serial used for irda) then if you can read the top left touch of each screen, u should have fairly accurate multi touch, good enough for the cheesy 'grab photo and resize by stretching'
am i totally wrong here? is there any point looking further into this?
ps. in writing this, it also occurs to me that the iphones biggest use of this is the photos - which are always in the same place, scaled on correct aspect ratio etc - theres no need for two fingers - u could just grab one corner to stretch it and itd be a very similar efect

Nope, sorry.

Dear Alan,
I thank you for your insightful reply. I feel you have bettered the forum and the community as a whole with your intelligent wit and your interesting and thought inducing contradictions to the theories that i presented.
Without your thoughts I may have been tempted to push these ideas further, maybe even get out a soldering iron and a copy of visual studio, but I can clearly see that I am mistaken in where this project could go and will not further waste my time.
I must thank you kind sir, for your thought and advice. You are a squire and a gentleman.

Lol
I don't think DIY hardware upgrades have ever made it far - consider the viability of GPS on the Hermes - it does require one to pop out a soldering iron to play with the idea. So your market is already down to a fraction of a %.
But I'm sure you could wire up a bluetooth or even IRDA multitouch capacitance layer... However, from a theoretical point of view - is it worth it? I considered the idea, and the Universal/Athena might make sense with your bigger screen, but on your average Hermes, I can barely get two fingers on the screen without obscurring most of it.
Like momentum based scrolling, I think multitouch on such a small screen is kinda gimicky - as you said, it's easier to write logic to pin one corner, free rotate with a finger on the other corner, enlarge, zoom etc. Ie ergonomic single touch.
Multitouch, even if possible on HTCs, barely seems to have a practical milieu IMHO on devices with screens <= 3 inches.
V

djboo said:
ps. in writing this, it also occurs to me that the iphones biggest use of this is the photos - which are always in the same place, scaled on correct aspect ratio etc - theres no need for two fingers - u could just grab one corner to stretch it and itd be a very similar efect
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am totally agree with you. and there are some other relatively simple solutions that can be used to simulate "multi touch actions" on photos.
for an instance,
D-PAD can be used for photos enlargement:
press both "left" and "right" - scales photos up
press both "up" and "down" - scales photos down
or other way around, etc.
this one not so difficult to implement.
also, it is quite easy to emulate multi-touch action on single touch display itself.
How? if we have applied layer consisted from interleaved pressure sensitive and non-sensitive spots, then having two fingers moved in opposite directions accros this layer will likely create sequence of pressed spots that can be easily analysed and interpreted in guesture.
my understanding is that while your left finger is moving to the left and crossing pressure non-sensitive spot, there is a good chance that your right finger at the same time will be crossing presure sensitive spot and moving to the right. this creates easy to analyze patern.
I believe that logic behind this idea is simple to primitive and guaranteed to work. "public domain" 20.06.2007.

are there any existing apps to get the raw output from the touchscreen (ive got nothing against coding my own, but no need to re-invent the wheel if it already exists)
the more i play with the univ and more than one finger, the more that it almost seems like its multi touch dumbed down to single touch. the averaging it does is rather uncanny and im sure if we can see whats happening before the os gets a look in we can work something out

I need pros/cons for buying a Touch Dual

I am going to swap cellular carriers and want to buy a Touch Dual. I already have a CDMA Touch and know its features well, but what are the main differences betwenn the touch and the touch dual. I know the dual has a slide out keyboard and a smaller screen, but what else is different. What are your like and dislikes?

I suppose you can easily find out about most of the good/bad features simply by reading one of many reviews available via Google search. So, perhaps I'll try to point out some things that are often left out of reviews.
Touchflo - This is over-hyped. The default Touchcube is quite useless because of the unintuitive choice of shortcuts. Prepare to have to mess around with registry and image files to get the Touchcube the way you want it. Grab-to-scroll is great, but it's nothing exciting nowadays.
The new photo viewer - Also over-hyped. The gestures take time to get used to. Performance is slow if your photo collection gets large. Most importantly, it doesn't allow you to organize your photos in directories. I've since ditched this for Resco's Photo Viewer.
The HTC Home plug-in - Arguably the best Today screen plug-in available.
WM6 - Will offer you limitless customization options if you are willing to take risks with registry and ROM files.
The camera - Almost unusable. Blurry photos unless you steady your hand against a solid object. This is either caused by an extremely slow shutter speed or it's a driver issue. The consensus is that it's the latter. Fortunately, HTC will be releasing proper drivers soon.
Internet Explorer - The default browser is useless. There's a bug that makes viewing large pages painful. The more you scroll away from the top, the more lag you experience with scrolling. Fortunately, there a fix for that here in this forum. Also, you will need to add PIE+ if you want any functionality out of the browser.
HTC Audio Manager - This is quite nice to use personally. Don't understand why some prefer WMP. But I suppose this is a personal preference thing. The sound skips every few minutes. But it's not a big deal.
As a phone, the Touch Dual is a dream come true. There are so many ways to dial. You can use your quick contacts. You can scroll through the contacts list. Or you can simply begin typing your contact's name or number and it will search through your contact list in real-time. This is simply great. Writing SMS and emails are great either with the touch screen or the keypad. Absolutely flawless as a phone.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=368144
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=361548
is it that hard to perform a search?

Stay away from the latest HTC phones until they've fixed that driver issue (www.htcclassaction.org).

DaVince said:
Stay away from the latest HTC phones until they've fixed that driver issue (www.htcclassaction.org).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's your choice, I like the Dual and feel that is as fast as I need.

bydandie said:
That's your choice, I like the Dual and feel that is as fast as I need.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed. It has it's flaws. But it is still a sweet device. After some tweaks, I'd it is a joy to use. And if HTC is going to release drivers as speculated, then it's just going to be that much better.

DaVince said:
Stay away from the latest HTC phones until they've fixed that driver issue (www.htcclassaction.org).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its only an issue if you're a serious gamer though. And a serious gamer would be more likely to use a different device?

Unfortunately, it's not just with games and video. It's the entire GUI itself. You can't even scroll without getting agitated! Imagine running your PC in safe mode.. Or running your PC with the default VGA drivers.
For those who insist on getting a Niki. Go ahead. you're the one getting screwed anyways.

Medical program in HD2

I am a physician who want a big screen PDA phone to read text in several medical programs --> LEO is very very big screen and with capacitive screen --> I love it very much
But I want to know that HD2 can work with medical program?
such as Uptodate, skyscape, Isilo etc...
Now, I know that no one sure about this... just discussing

i am interested in this post too....i think all aplications for windows mobile can be instalated.
Pardon for my english, my teacher is very bad....or perhaps i am a very bad student

from WMpoweruser.com topic 2/11/52
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=9573
They said
PocketPC.ch have been the first to really test how well the HTC HD2, with is 4.3 inch capacitive screen, works with our older, more complex applications such as Pocket Informant and SBSH Weather.
The video shows that HTC has implemented a multi-touch system that allows one to enlarge the view and gain access to the older, smaller, less finger friendly controls in those apps. Microsoft is in the process of implementing a similar idea as seen in leaks of Windows Mobile 6.5.1, but as usual apparently less elegantly than HTC.
This feature works in all applications tested, but the process remains difficult with small controls, indicating a need to move towards more finger-friendly applications in a future where all devices have less precise capacitive screens.
Read more at PocketPC.ch here. --> they also has youtube video show multitouch zooming in those older programs..
I think the possible problem that make you can't use medical program & many Old apps is capacitive screen (I love capacitive screen ^^)..... that make you some problems when input in small area(skyscape programs have many..) ... but this wmuser topic is our hope!! >>> It's only hope... I'm not sure whether "Multitouch Zooming" support many programs or not.... but I trust in it's large screen with make every thing in screen large enough for input.
PS. I have bad english too .. don't be shame ^^

Hello to all, medical student here too. Well, in theory (as noone actually has the device in their hands yet) all the apps that used to work on wm 6.1 (wvga of course) should work on this device. The simple fact that the HTC HD2 has a capacitive screen does not change the fact that it runs on WM6.5 ... sure it doesn.t have the stylus but i don.t think we need one on a 4.3 display screen (even though HTC allready announced the magnetic stylus as an accesory for the ones insisting on using it)
So, in short theoretically all the apps that used to run on a wm device will work on the HD2 without any problems

colleages, good news, all medical app u mentioned above work like a charm, it is incredible to scroll through text with this baby, it is well worth it

There are problems with skyscape applications and uptodate.
Moving your finger up and down results in text selection instead of scrolling.
I have already started a new thread with this issue, but unfortunately there is no answer yet.

Step2p said:
There are problems with skyscape applications and uptodate.
Moving your finger up and down results in text selection instead of scrolling.
I have already started a new thread with this issue, but unfortunately there is no answer yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? Hmm... That is the big problem for me. I like to touch the screen and moving my finger slide around the text to move up and down instead using scroll bar.
Anyway, I want to know how you can manage this problem. Do you use the scroll bar instead of using touch slide? How scroll bar work? I mean can you touch the direction key in scrollbar despite its small size with HD2? or touch anywhere in scroll bar to move the page to direction you want

Step2p said:
There are problems with skyscape applications and uptodate.
Moving your finger up and down results in text selection instead of scrolling.
I have already started a new thread with this issue, but unfortunately there is no answer yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is a work around, either you scroll by taping the scroll bar on the right, or you scroll by poping up the virtual keyboard and using the arrows there ( even on my old TP1, when you tried scrolling by actually fliking the finger, it resulted in text selection)
So in short, skyscape should work fine.
PS: I.ve heard (as i get the device next week and don.t have it yet) that if you try to scroll by actually moving the scrollbar on the right, that a square box should appear and make it a lot easyer, seen it on a youtube video.

I think that I have found a temporary solution
Install Ftouchsl and add exceptions for (at least) the following applications
manila.exe
shell32.exe
Opera9.exe
HTCalbum.exe
Also add an exception for Window name = "Phone"
Include in the exclusion list any other application that you want to use with the original htc's sense interface.
For the rest of the applications you will be able to use touchscrolling via ftouchsl.
This will ONLY influence touchscrolling. Multitouch (if enabled) will continue to work.

although indeed, when trying to scroll in uptodate, it selects text, the scroller bar its very usefull. Anyway, we all know this is a software problem, and the main reaseon we all on XDA upgrade our phones its because of the hardware. Th screen on this device compesates for all its software flaws. Just my opinion.

I use a lot of skyscape books and am particularly interested in this too. Currently, using Touch Pro2. Interested in HD2 but same confusions regarding skyscape. Already disappointed that notes application can not be used as a free sketch/drawing, which is a big drawback. If skyscape also cannot be used then HD2 with capicitative screen is useless and would rather prefer resistive screen of touch pro 2.

dr_s said:
I use a lot of skyscape books and am particularly interested in this too. Currently, using Touch Pro2. Interested in HD2 but same confusions regarding skyscape. Already disappointed that notes application can not be used as a free sketch/drawing, which is a big drawback. If skyscape also cannot be used then HD2 with capicitative screen is useless and would rather prefer resistive screen of touch pro 2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It can.
Just read my post
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=4944443&postcount=9

Step2p said:
I think that I have found a temporary solution
Install Ftouchsl and add exceptions for (at least) the following applications
manila.exe
shell32.exe
Opera9.exe
HTCalbum.exe
Also add an exception for Window name = "Phone"
Include in the exclusion list any other application that you want to use with the original htc's sense interface.
For the rest of the applications you will be able to use touchscrolling via ftouchsl.
This will ONLY influence touchscrolling. Multitouch (if enabled) will continue to work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for your solution....however I don't have the device yet.
May be about next month when HD2 come to my country..I should try

troubletop said:
Thank you for your solution....however I don't have the device yet.
May be about next month when HD2 come to my country..I should try
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have tried it and it works even better than the original htc touchflo because you can both scroll and select text.
I am still adding programs in the exception list and will come back with a list of applications that should be blocked.

Another interesting point in HD2... Step2p, I want to know your touchscrolling experience when you activated it. The moving page...Does it feel like "repeately press on the scroll bar directional button"(up or down) which is the same as before when you use touchscrolling with other WM device...or Does it feel smooth as Iphone(you can make it smooth on previously WM device by touch the screen and drag the page by hold your finger/stylet on the screen.
I want to know this... if it smooth as I said ...it will be great!. but if it just like the older before I still love this device.
I beg you guys, who has HD2...esp. step2p thankyou ^^

@troubletop
Scrolling in medical applications is not naturally supported by hd2, but using ftoushsl and adding exceptions for the rest of the applications in your device will solve this problem.
Touchscrolling is very smooth.
I have already had experience with ftouchsl in my X7500 and touchscrolling was excellent. It is better from htc's intrinsic touchscroll, because it allows you to configure both scrolling and text selection (with prolonged pressure).
The capacitive screen makes scrolling experience even better (although the application is the same), because you don't need to apply pressure in order to scroll.
Unfortunately however, I can not provide you with comparative data to iphone's scrolling experience, because I have never had an iphone.

Step2p said:
I have tried it and it works even better than the original htc touchflo because you can both scroll and select text.
I am still adding programs in the exception list and will come back with a list of applications that should be blocked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you already have the updated list of programs that should be included in the exception list?
I haven't installed the software yet (Ftouchsl), basically because I'm afraid I would disable several scrolling features that I like about HD Sense.
In fact, I'd rather prefer that Ftouchsl allows the opposite -that is, to include in a list ONLY the programs you want the Ftouchsl to work on, and not an exception list, you know what I mean? Because in my case, I want the old original HD scrolling feature for a couple of programs only: Skyscape and Epocrates.

Ftouchsl?
Hi All, where do I download/install the ftouchsl program for HD2. Is this uninstallable, just in case there are problems

snowblindd said:
There is a work around, either you scroll by taping the scroll bar on the right, or you scroll by poping up the virtual keyboard and using the arrows there ( even on my old TP1, when you tried scrolling by actually fliking the finger, it resulted in text selection)
So in short, skyscape should work fine.
PS: I.ve heard (as i get the device next week and don.t have it yet) that if you try to scroll by actually moving the scrollbar on the right, that a square box should appear and make it a lot easyer, seen it on a youtube video.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have suddenly lost the small square that used to appear while scrolling on the scroll bar. Anyway of getting it back?

kartikatre said:
I have suddenly lost the small square that used to appear while scrolling on the scroll bar. Anyway of getting it back?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I noticed this behaviour as well. I don't think there is a solution. Scrolling to the bottom of a very long file takes a while this way... I compensated by increasing the sensivity in setting of FTouchSL, so I can scroll faster.
BTW is use UptoDate a while with FTouchSL, and it makes is so much more convenient...
lovanova said:
Do you already have the updated list of programs that should be included in the exception list?
I haven't installed the software yet (Ftouchsl), basically because I'm afraid I would disable several scrolling features that I like about HD Sense.
In fact, I'd rather prefer that Ftouchsl allows the opposite -that is, to include in a list ONLY the programs you want the Ftouchsl to work on, and not an exception list, you know what I mean? Because in my case, I want the old original HD scrolling feature for a couple of programs only: Skyscape and Epocrates.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the same, instead of excluding apps, I think including would be more efficient. However, it takes a few minutes to exclude all apps you want, really not much hassle.
Sometimes it's anoying if a new app seems to malfunction, and later on I realize FTouchSL was interfering and making the trouble.
Hopefully, a better app will come out soon, however newer apps will support touch scrolling anyway.

Do we really need multitouch UI

After using Hero for about a month I noticed that I can perform almost every task on this phone only using my right thumb. While multitouch seems to many including me like a revolutionary UI concept making user experience more comfortable I'd like to ask do we really need multitouch for anything except games?
Would you like to see more multitouch functions on Hero?
Don't you find gestures which can be performed using only one finger more suitable for small devices like cell phone?

well, i'd guess that that's the reason why there are no more multitouch gestures other than the zoom... i couldn't think of any other right now, but it for me it is similar to mouse gestures. there are like hundreds of them pre-made in any firefox add-on, i use maybe four of them. wouldn't wanna miss them though, same as the browser zoom

Well, when we get Eclair, and multitouch is actually part of android rather than just an HTC add-on, I imagine more and more android apps will adopt and take advantage of it.
I do see games getting much better with it. It'd be nice to have a more verbose on-screen controller for the SNES emulator, which is rather unusable on the Hero right now.
But yeah, I agree... as of right now, multitouch doesn't do a whole lot for us. I think the future has good things in store though.

multitouch is good for the keyboard, when you press and hold shift, you can make a capital letter easily for example.
Aside from that; a VNC app where 2 finger scroll is pan screen, and 1 finger is change mouse-cursor.
or two finger scroll down gesture on the screen will pull down the 'android-notification bar'.
Don't know. I guess I feel the same as you guys; I didn't really miss is it after coming from a iPhone 3G

Multitouch is extremely important if you want to type fast on the keyboard ! It will recognize your second character, even when your other thumb is still on the first character... without multitouch, you have to elevate your thumb first, before you can tap another letter with your other thumb (still following ? )... so it makes the typing experience A LOT better ! just try it yourself: type on a hero and then on a magic... there's a difference ! (well, for me there was )... also multitouch in the browser is pretty handy ! I use pinch & zoom ALL the time, because with double tap it doesn't zoom like I would want it to ...
So for me, multitouch is a pretty important factor !

[Game] Touch Drummer - Demo

Hey guys. I'm a poster from the HTC Vogue (Touch) Android forums here. I've been working on writing this drum game for a few months now and I wanted to see if I could get a little more attention from the community. Here's the original thread I started:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=672836
You may have seen a post yesterday on the home portal about "Matt's Drum Game," well I added a few cool features, renamed it "Touch Drummer" and uploaded that to the market as well. I'm pretty giddy about it, if only because I created an algorithm for multi-touch on resistive screens in about 4 days. It's not perfect but for the game it works well.
There are really two different aspects of my implementation for multi-touch. If you are clicking very rapidly, sometimes the screen won't recognize that you released the first touch, even as the second touch comes in. As long as they are within 150 ms of each other, the app will recognize two separate touches. This allows for some wicked quick banging on the drums! But if you touch one spot and hold it for over 150 ms, then multi-touch a different spot, my algorithm will not only play the original drum but also the second drum, hence multi-touch. The limitation is that you cannot use two fingers to hit two drums almost at the same time, because on the resistive screen it might only register as one point and I have no way of knowing that it's really two. And the reason for the delay is sometimes you aren't actually trying to touch two spots but it would recognize it as that and the point would end up far away from your intended touch. The delay helps forge a difference in the two methods.
Well I'd love to hear from you guys on what you think about the game and the multi-touch. And please, if you don't mind, download "Touch Drummer - Demo" and give a good ranking. I promise that it is a ton of fun, especially for a drummer like myself.

I think that the game is really good - I can touch two drums nearly simultaneously, due to the very small time interval for registering taps.
I have an idea though - maybe you could add challenges with an online high scoreboard, and add voice recognition through the phone's mic for people who wish to sing when drumming.
Keep going at it; I think your game will become brilliant!

HunteronX said:
I think that the game is really good - I can touch two drums nearly simultaneously, due to the very small time interval for registering taps.
I have an idea though - maybe you could add challenges with an online high scoreboard, and add voice recognition through the phone's mic for people who wish to sing when drumming.
Keep going at it; I think your game will become brilliant!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cool, what device are you on? Right now I'm working on making it look good on any screen size, right now it's not for 320x240. I've just added a menu, and adjusted what happens when you go home from the app or press back. Once I learn all the basic stuff that every app needs to have, I will start adding more features. Like the multitouch, someone suggested it, so I went ahead and researched it and can add it. So thanks for the feedback.
BTW I realized there is a forum for software development, and one for games and apps. Should I move this over there?
EDIT: Moved to...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=6388061#post6388061
Please do not respond to this thread.