Database Users

Help me start out understanding Android

Hello,
A friend of mine has an Android device (SIM unlocked TELUS HTC Hero running on Bell Canada) and I've recently become interested in seeing what he could do as far as flashing ROMs, rooting, etc.
I'm thinking about getting an Android device at some point in the future, so I also see the advantage to understanding the Android paradigm.
I'm currently a WM user (HTC HD2 T9193) so I understand that setup of .nbh ROM images, .cab installers, HSPL, et cetera, but I don't really understand the Android paradigm that corresponds to that.
I've searched around these forums a bit, but I can't really find anything that helps me get started (all the WM ROM Development forums have great stickies with enough information to get you started). All I've really found is directions for rooting the device, which sort of helps...but not really.
If someone could be so kind as to information or link dump in this thread, to give me something to read to understand better, I'd be most appreciative.
No detail is too minute! I love information!
Thanks a lot!
P.S.: Total aside, but Swype for Hero, does it exist? Searching the web seemed to indicate that it only is available for WVGA devices (N1, Droid/Milestone, Desire), but there's always that chance of XDA magic...

I'm writing a series of Android Explained guides.
Give me a week or so...

There's plenty of info in these forums, its just its really well hidden...
I can answer your Swype question though! They're working on it, there's a beta available, not sure if they have places left on it though. Head over to the MoDaCo forums and you should be able to find out some info on how Swype is coming along.
Florida.

i remember a while back before the swype beta was released i got my hands on a swype apk, cant remember where from tho. used it for about 2 weeks on the hero. was great, slightly buggy tho

Yes,a guide with explanation of several terms of Android / HTC
would be good!
Example:
What is "Root","HardSPL/SPL","Swap","apps2sd" etc.!

I had exactly the same issue as you, but eventually I got so sick of winmo that I threw myself into the depth and bought a hero. After that I think i used i stock for about two or three weeks looking on forums for nice things to do with my phone.. Eventually I began to learn more and more about rooting etc. (theunlockr.com is a nice website)..
What i'm saying is, there are so much cool things to discover when you buy an android powered device. It's fun to just go for it and find stuff out...
I understand it's probably a big investment.. But you will not be dissapointed!!!
Android RULES period

DaanJordaan said:
I had exactly the same issue as you, but eventually I got so sick of winmo that I threw myself into the depth and bought a hero.
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Click to collapse
Well I currently own an HD2.
I'm not going to go HD2 ==> Hero, because that's a serious downgrade IMO.
DaanJordaan said:
After that I think i used i stock for about two or three weeks looking on forums for nice things to do with my phone.. Eventually I began to learn more and more about rooting etc. (theunlockr.com is a nice website)..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm a big WiFi tethering junkie (my buddy who actually has the Hero isn't so much...he's more paranoid about rooting, which is why I'm trying to do all the research/reading possible), I don't know if that's possible on Android without rooting, but from what I've read it's not [possible], so that'd be why I'd root on day #1.
DaanJordaan said:
What i'm saying is, there are so much cool things to discover when you buy an android powered device. It's fun to just go for it and find stuff out...
I understand it's probably a big investment.. But you will not be dissapointed!!!
Android RULES period
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Personally with WP7 on the horizon -- and how awful it looks -- I've resigned myself to the fact that my next smartphone will be an Android-powered one.
I'm waiting to see if there'll be a GSM version of the EVO, because so far that's the only Android device that's caught my eye (given that I currently have an HD2...the downgrade in screen size is what's made me discount the N1 for now).

Spike15 said:
Well I currently own an HD2.
I'm not going to go HD2 ==> Hero, because that's a serious downgrade IMO.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you're not going to a Hero, why are you posting in the Hero forum?
Honestly, the information is there, you just have to look for it. Most of us, myself included, came from WM devices of some description and we all found the info ourselves pretty well.

alliekhat said:
If you're not going to a Hero, why are you posting in the Hero forum?
Honestly, the information is there, you just have to look for it. Most of us, myself included, came from WM devices of some description and we all found the info ourselves pretty well.
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Click to collapse
You're lecturing me about "just looking for it [information]" and yet you don't even read the OP before asking a question:
Spike15 said:
A friend of mine has an Android device (SIM unlocked TELUS HTC Hero running on Bell Canada) and I've recently become interested in seeing what he could do as far as flashing ROMs, rooting, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also pointed out that I searched around a bit, but couldn't find salient information. Both of the WM devices I have experience with (TP2, HD2) have stickies all over their boards with all the relevant information you need to get started.
Why is that idea lost on these forums?

My point is, why ask here in particular?
You obviously haven't searched very hard, and not researched other Android devices before posting on a section that, in comparison to others, is lacking. Look at the Magic/Nexus One sections maybe? I know the Magic has a lot more info than you'll find here.
Or here's a bright idea, try the wiki? or even Google!

EVO 4G ROM Leaked today.

The shipping ROM of the HTC EVO 4G has now been leaked. The RUU_Supersonic_1.32.651.1_Radio_1.39.00.04.26_release_171253.exe file is the official ROM present on the devices that will go on sale on June 4th (and probably originates from one the handsets offered yesterday during Google I/O). You can grab the file here. I guess that the next logical step will be an attempt to port this ROM to the HTC HD2.
http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2010/05/21/official-shipping-htc-evo-4g-rom-available-for-download/

I wonder how long it will take......Hopefully not longer than June4th

SPENONE said:
I wonder how long it will take......Hopefully not longer than June4th
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Click to collapse
My prayers are with your post

plzlordplzlordplzlordplzlord.....
Im sure the awesome modders here in the greatest mobile phone fourm in the UNIVERSE can work their magic

hd2 is watching u!

reorx24 said:
plzlordplzlordplzlordplzlord.....
Im sure the awesome modders here in the greatest mobile phone forum in the UNIVERSE can work their magic
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 lol. can't wait to see android on this hd2.

I think it is better to wait for froyo if this rom can be installed on the HD2.

this i would love to see

Could someone who knows about the difficulties associated with porting ROMs quickly describe how feasible getting a work of port of android from the EVO 4G over to the HD2 would be?
I imagine the fact that the camera is different would cause problems?

laserviking said:
Could someone who knows about the difficulties associated with porting ROMs quickly describe how feasible getting a work of port of android from the EVO 4G over to the HD2 would be?
I imagine the fact that the camera is different would cause problems?
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Click to collapse
Lawl, you guys must be smoking some pretty good pot. This will take months. You are assuming that every single internal part save for the camera is identical. I'm pretty certain it won't be. It'll be a long time before any port of Android is working on the HD2. Until then, it's best you not get your hopes too high because you'd surely be disappointed if you think a working port is feasible in 4 ~ 8 weeks.

this topic has been beaten to death over and over guys. i'm not trying to come off as a ****, but please search and read before making posts, because it upsets the devs. A LOT of parts are different between the HD2 and EVO, they don't even use the same touchscreen. This is going to take some time. Be patient.

a quick Google search will reveal picture and video evidence of this already working, along with Windows Phone 7 succesfully ported on the HD2. problems arise with the assignment of the hard buttons more than anything else.

PoisonWolf said:
Lawl, you guys must be smoking some pretty good pot. This will take months. You are assuming that every single internal part save for the camera is identical. I'm pretty certain it won't be. It'll be a long time before any port of Android is working on the HD2. Until then, it's best you not get your hopes too high because you'd surely be disappointed if you think a working port is feasible in 4 ~ 8 weeks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've got no such expectations, for one I pointed out at least the camera is different and I assume a whole lot of other stuff is too.
Anyway, here's a question I've never seen addressed in any topic but is interesting for layman plebs:
What information do official HTC devs have access to which XDA devs don't, which makes churning out working drivers, etc. for phones doable for the former and nigh-on impossible for the latter? Please don't misinterpret this post as accusing XDA devs of being lazy or anything, I'm just curious as to why it's so difficult.

laserviking said:
Anyway, here's a question I've never seen addressed in any topic but is interesting for layman plebs:
What information do official HTC devs have access to which XDA devs don't, which makes churning out working drivers, etc. for phones doable for the former and nigh-on impossible for the latter? Please don't misinterpret this post as accusing XDA devs of being lazy or anything, I'm just curious as to why it's so difficult.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The knowledge that a hefty paycheck is arriving at the end of every two weeks and that if they don't perform, they'll get replaced with another person who is qualified and willing to deliver on said schedule. Things change when you do it as a hobby and when you're struggling to make a better life for yourself and/or spouse and kids.
Even a somewhat working version of Android on the Blackstone came out what, 12 months after its release? Making Android work on a Windows Mobile device is not some plug and play magic or drag and drop process as a lot of you are making it out to be (not directly at you, in general). While I'm only a beginner in programming, I know the difficulty that goes into making a good single working software, let alone making an entire OS work on a completely different set of hardware.

laserviking said:
I've got no such expectations, for one I pointed out at least the camera is different and I assume a whole lot of other stuff is too.
Anyway, here's a question I've never seen addressed in any topic but is interesting for layman plebs:
What information do official HTC devs have access to which XDA devs don't, which makes churning out working drivers, etc. for phones doable for the former and nigh-on impossible for the latter? Please don't misinterpret this post as accusing XDA devs of being lazy or anything, I'm just curious as to why it's so difficult.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The official developers get the hardware datasheets from the manufacturers and software apis because they are licensed to work on these devices. If xda devs got those things, it would be much easier.

CraigBirnie said:
a quick Google search will reveal picture and video evidence of this already working, along with Windows Phone 7 succesfully ported on the HD2. problems arise with the assignment of the hard buttons more than anything else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android has not been ported yet. I don't know where you saw that, but its probably fake. There have been videos of WinPhone 7, but it hasn't been established whether its fake or not.

CraigBirnie said:
a quick Google search will reveal picture and video evidence of this already working, along with Windows Phone 7 succesfully ported on the HD2. problems arise with the assignment of the hard buttons more than anything else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh hey, thanks for the link.
Kids on here are incredibly stupid.

zarathustrax said:
The official developers get the hardware datasheets from the manufacturers and software apis because they are licensed to work on these devices. If xda devs got those things, it would be much easier.
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Click to collapse
Thanks! I knew there had to be a missing link somewhere.

HTC threatens handset hackers with legal action for distributing ROMs

READ YOUR HOMEWORK PEOPLE http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2010/06...kers-with-legal-action-for-distributing-roms/

I guess I know what i'll be downloading all day till I got work

That's for Windows Mobile.
hTC can't stop anyone distributing AOSP ROMs, but they could throw the hammer down on distributing their Sense ROMS.

Because of all that nonsense (no pun intended ), I've commited myself to getting this. I'll be more than satisfied.

wcdisciple said:
Because of all that nonsense (no pun intended ), I've commited myself to getting this. I'll be more than satisfied.
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Click to collapse
Man, i think you're not getting tired of emphasise how good apple is. Please don't take it offensive, but why are you in this forum if you will buy / have bought an iPhone?
HTC is only one company of many building phones with Android. Whether you like Sense or not is your decision. G1 and MT3G (with google) were never intended to run with Sense. And no one can sue us for using AOSP ROM's. So i have no problem with it compared to apple, who will preselect the software for you...
Jailbreaking the iPhone isn't legal by the way...
PS: don't want to start an Apple/Android war, but leaving one company suing others for another company suing people since years and taking it for the reason why, seems a bit curious to me...

hudl said:
Man, i think you're not getting tired of emphasise how good apple is. Please don't take it offensive, but why are you in this forum if you will buy / have bought an iPhone?
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Click to collapse
He's been on a rampage with it.
On a better note: I don't think this will stop ROM development. Didn't xda go through the same thing, but HTC didn't care about the actual developed ROMs?
Edit: Can't find anything to support that. :/ Remember reading it somewhere - might have been bs, but I swear it was on xda news.

HTC threatens handset hackers with legal action - WORST MISTAKE EVER
HTC is seriously making a mistake with that one.
Ive only been satisfied with my purchase of anything they have come with AFTER flashing a Rom into it.
If this continues I promise you they will regret it.
They will lose customers that WILL choose to go to other manufacturers.
The Devs and all who create on a constant basis are not hackers.
They innovate to make HTC a better phone than the competitors because of the work that are done by these fine people.

legend221 said:
HTC is seriously making a mistake with that one.
Ive only been satisfied with my purchase of anything they have come with AFTER flashing a Rom into it.
If this continues I promise you they will regret it.
They will lose customers that WILL choose to go to other manufacturers.
The Devs and all who create on a constant basis are not hackers.
They innovate to make HTC a better phone than the competitors because of the work that are done by these fine people.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But they didn't take it down because of them being custom ROMs. They were all just the basic stock ROMs that came with the phone. Honestly, there's not much of a difference as both custom and stock contain IP. However, I think they would've taken down xda a long time ago if they were worried about custom ROMs.

r3s-rt said:
Honestly, there's not much of a difference as both custom and stock contain IP.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is a HUGE difference between stock and Custom Rom, anyone that has ever flashed a Rom will tell you this.
r3s-rt said:
However, I think they would've taken down xda a long time ago if they were worried about custom ROMs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A similar C&D almost stopped the progression of a certain legendary Dev on the android scene.
Luckily, there was a workaround and everyone was happy flashing and seeing for themselves how much better our phones have been on a customized, fast and stable Rom.

legend221 said:
There is a HUGE difference between stock and Custom Rom, anyone that has ever flashed a Rom will tell you this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you serious? So you're telling me all HTC widgets involved in a sense ROM aren't IP? Or Google Apps included in most ROMs aren't IP? Google Maps? Market? Anything? That's actually pretty funny. No THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between a stock ROM and a custom ROM on the IP subject with the exception of JUST a few. Like.... 2 or 3? Do you even know what intellectual property is?
A similar C&D almost stopped the progression of a certain legendary Dev on the android scene.
Luckily, there was a workaround and everyone was happy flashing and seeing for themselves how much better our phones have been on a customized, fast and stable Rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And no, the similar C&D did NOT almost stop ROM development. If that was the case, NO ROM would come with Google Apps included. However, they DO, and are they are NOT getting C&Ds. If you think Google isn't looking at XDA to see what's happening, you need to start thinking a bit more.
Edit: Also, not every ROM is based off of cyanogen. While there are A LOT that are, not ALL are.

r3s-rt said:
Are you serious? So you're telling me all HTC widgets involved in a sense ROM aren't IP? Or Google Apps included in most ROMs aren't IP? Google Maps? Market? Anything? That's actually pretty funny. No THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between a stock ROM and a custom ROM on the IP subject with the exception of JUST a few. Like.... 2 or 3? Do you even know what intellectual property is?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not everyone even cares about widgets. I only use the calendar one for example. Widgets are not the issue, we are talking about Roms overall because if HTC starts implementing a stricter enforcement of people not having the ability to use or host the Rom of their choice and preventing Devs to freely distribute their work then we are all held mercy to whatever HTC has pre-installed from the factory. A major FAIL for them.
r3s-rt said:
And no, the similar C&D did NOT almost stop ROM development. If that was the case, NO ROM would come with Google Apps included. However, they DO, and are they are NOT getting C&Ds. If you think Google isn't looking at XDA to see what's happening, you need to start thinking a bit more.
Edit: Also, not every ROM is based off of cyanogen. While there are A LOT that are, not ALL are.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google knows its in their best interest to keep letting everyone that wants to flash a custom Rom. Some people buy specific phones (the past phones of mine as well) only if they are rooted or can install a custom SPL and flash their flavor of a Rom. The Cyanogen reference was an example not for every case, we are aware of the Windows Mobile, etc sections of xda.

legend221 said:
Not everyone even cares about widgets. I only use the calendar one for example. Widgets are not the issue, we are talking about Roms overall because if HTC starts implementing a stricter enforcement of people not having the ability to use or host the Rom of their choice and preventing Devs to freely distribute their work then we are all held mercy to whatever HTC has pre-installed from the factory. A major FAIL for them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're not continuing what you originally said. You said there's a huge difference between a custom ROM and a stock ROM. Now, this statement should have been based on IP terms, as this is clearly what the topic is supposed to be about. My point is that IP is still included in any ROM. It doesn't matter what you use - that is completely irrelevant to the subject matter. They clearly are not enforcing all little bits of IP. If that was the case, as I've said multiple times, xda wouldn't be here right now. HTC is WELL AWARE along with Microsoft and Google of what goes on here. I promise you they pay once lucky bastard to sit here and probe this site, along with others, all day everyday and flag anything they see unfit. The main thing they seem to not like is ROM libraries. That's just from my experience.
To sum this up" We are NOT at mercy of what is pre-installed from factory or they would have sent out much more C&D letters much sooner than this. XDA has over 2 MILLION users. That's all I'm saying.
Google knows its in their best interest to keep letting everyone that wants to flash a custom Rom. Some people buy specific phones (the past phones of mine as well) only if they are rooted or can install a custom SPL and flash their flavor of a Rom. The Cyanogen reference was an example not for every case, we are aware of the Windows Mobile, etc sections of xda.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Best interest? Are you serious, bro? Android is marketed as an open-source platform. That's not in their "best interest." It's in their intents! The unrootable is because of cell phone carriers! Guess what?! The Dream came out as a Development phone! The Google ION (more commonly the myTouch 3g)? Development phone! The cyanogenmod reference was taken for what it was - an C&D from GOOGLE! NOT HTC!

r3s-rt said:
You're not continuing what you originally said. You said there's a huge difference between a custom ROM and a stock ROM. Now, this statement should have been based on IP terms, as this is clearly what the topic is supposed to be about. My point is that IP is still included in any ROM. It doesn't matter what you use - that is completely irrelevant to the subject matter. They clearly are not enforcing all little bits of IP. If that was the case, as I've said multiple times, xda wouldn't be here right now. HTC is WELL AWARE along with Microsoft and Google of what goes on here. I promise you they pay once lucky bastard to sit here and probe this site, along with others, all day everyday and flag anything they see unfit. The main thing they seem to not like is ROM libraries. That's just from my experience.
To sum this up" We are NOT at mercy of what is pre-installed from factory or they would have sent out much more C&D letters much sooner than this. XDA has over 2 MILLION users. That's all I'm saying.
Best interest? Are you serious, bro? Android is marketed as an open-source platform. That's not in their "best interest." It's in their intents! The unrootable is because of cell phone carriers! Guess what?! The Dream came out as a Development phone! The Google ION (more commonly the myTouch 3g)? Development phone! The cyanogenmod reference was taken for what it was - an C&D from GOOGLE! NOT HTC!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for giving that one guy the heads up on what goes on and what doesnt go on around here if he indeed does exist. If theres anything we dont need is anyone giving them more fuel to thier fire.
No one said the C&D came from HTC, seeing as you are a reader on xda I knew I didnt have to explain this to you. hahaha. It is in Google's best interest to let the Devs continue thier greatness because guess what many would jump ship to Windows Mobile devices or other OS including the iPhone even though there are not Roms for it I believe. If Android Development was not allowed to continue, at least most people would stop buying Android powered phones I believe.
Yawn........ time for bed now.

Why are you all under the assumption that the majority of HTC sales all run off of custom firmware? Do you really believe that sales are going to be effected that much because of HTC's decision?

legend221 said:
No one said the C&D came from HTC
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Click to collapse
Did you even read the article? If you are referring to the one cyanogen got, I never said it did. Seeing as you are just a reader (not) I didn't have to explain this to you. But I did. Please, if you're going to try and get a point across, respect me enough to actually read what I said.
legend221 said:
Thanks for giving that one guy the heads up on what goes on and what doesnt go on around here if he indeed does exist. If theres anything we dont need is anyone giving them more fuel to thier fire.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had to edit this is. Really? Have you been snorting cocaine or something? That's pretty damn paranoid. If you don't think that happens, you just need to get off the internet as that's just basic knowledge. If you were HTC, would you not watch us? If you wouldn't - stay out of sales forever.
Binary100100 said:
Why are you all under the assumption that the majority of HTC sales all run off of custom firmware? Do you really believe that sales are going to be effected that much because of HTC's decision?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not under that assumption; I take you include me in the all. I just stated that at least this won't affect custom ROMs and he went on about how custom ROMs are so different and don't contain IP. That's what I've been trying to get across in all my posts. And no, I don't think their sales will be affected .

r3s-rt said:
Did you even read the article? If you are referring to the one cyanogen got, I never said it did. Seeing as you are just a reader (not) I didn't have to explain this to you. But I did. Please, if you're going to try and get a point across, respect me enough to actually read what I said.
I had to edit this is. Really? Have you been snorting cocaine or something? That's pretty damn paranoid. If you don't think that happens, you just need to get off the internet as that's just basic knowledge. If you were HTC, would you not watch us? If you wouldn't - stay out of sales forever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're still on what I said?
Get over it and realize not everyone is going to agree with you or your thoughts.
The one on drugs is YOU, damn get out of the forums and do something else with your time man. hahaha
That's why its a forum and NOT your personal website.

legend221 said:
You're still on what I said?
Get over it and realize not everyone is going to agree with you or your thoughts.
The one on drugs is YOU, damn get out of the forums and do something else with your time man. hahaha
That's why its a forum and NOT your personal website.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Any one with intelligence will tell you that 90% of custom ROMs contain IP. The fact that you are swearing up and down that they don't is just.... stupid.

r3s-rt said:
Any one with intelligence will tell you that 90% of custom ROMs contain IP. The fact that you are swearing up and down that they don't is just.... stupid.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The fact of the matter is that without proprietary IP, you can't even start the thing up. There is more IP than just widgets, launchers, and apps... there are DRIVERS and other such buried nonsense.
SOME of this IP *IS* distributed, have a look at developer.htc.com -- HTC eventually relented and opened their kernel modifications since they were committing a GPL violation, but there is other stuff on that page that is being distributed that IS proprietary IP, specifically, the "HTC Proprietary Binaries for ADP1". And those binaries don't even include all the proprietary binaries needed to make full use of the phone, such as the GPU drivers and the video decoder drivers.
THANKFULLY, the phone's owner IS licensed to use all of those binaries, so they can just keep them. Note that they're also included in the FULL SYSTEM IMAGES that HTC ITSELF distributed from developer.htc.com.
*** and that is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between the android platform and wimo.... the fact that HTC distributes ***all*** of the proprietary binaries straight from their website. It means that it ***IS*** possible to generate fully AOSP (but non-functional) system images, and the USER can combine them with the binaries provided by HTC to make a working system.
From what I've seen, HTC REALLY DOESN'T CARE and/or actually WANTS users to build custom roms for their phones. They send out the cease and desist order for distribution of wimo roms, PROBABLY in accordance with MS's demands. MS probably said to them -- "listen, you either try to put a lid on piracy or we're going to stop sending you MSTRASH." HTC distributes GOOGLE apps in the roms on their website because THAT'S WHAT GOOGLE WANTS.

lbcoder said:
The fact of the matter is that without proprietary IP, you can't even start the thing up. There is more IP than just widgets, launchers, and apps... there are DRIVERS and other such buried nonsense.
SOME of this IP *IS* distributed, have a look at developer.htc.com -- HTC eventually relented and opened their kernel modifications since they were committing a GPL violation, but there is other stuff on that page that is being distributed that IS proprietary IP, specifically, the "HTC Proprietary Binaries for ADP1". And those binaries don't even include all the proprietary binaries needed to make full use of the phone, such as the GPU drivers and the video decoder drivers.
THANKFULLY, the phone's owner IS licensed to use all of those binaries, so they can just keep them. Note that they're also included in the FULL SYSTEM IMAGES that HTC ITSELF distributed from developer.htc.com.
*** and that is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between the android platform and wimo.... the fact that HTC distributes ***all*** of the proprietary binaries straight from their website. It means that it ***IS*** possible to generate fully AOSP (but non-functional) system images, and the USER can combine them with the binaries provided by HTC to make a working system.
From what I've seen, HTC REALLY DOESN'T CARE and/or actually WANTS users to build custom roms for their phones. They send out the cease and desist order for distribution of wimo roms, PROBABLY in accordance with MS's demands. MS probably said to them -- "listen, you either try to put a lid on piracy or we're going to stop sending you MSTRASH." HTC distributes GOOGLE apps in the roms on their website because THAT'S WHAT GOOGLE WANTS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. Didn't even think about all that.
2. That's exactly what I thought. Microsoft is so scared of a lonely developer doing better than what their out-the-ass payed developers do. Honestly, why would the manufacturer of the phone give a damn what you do with it when you buy it? No matter what way you look at it: their task is to sell the phones they manufacture.

Why it is so difficult?

I do not want to upset anybody, just trying to get some understanding of the entire upgrade to a new OS version.
I'm a programmer myself, but on Windows platform and mostly do middle tier business server side apps. Do not know a thing about Linux and android. But had some java experience in the past.
I wonder why we cannot get Froyo so long? Ain't the sources open? Even if we do not have some drivers, these parts cannot change dramatically from version to version. Published API must be stable...
Is this about Dalvik JVM? But, I guess this must be in released ROMs for other phones in the line.
What's the deal? Will appreciate some explanation here.

Android is open source, but that is only the operating system and the kernel, but the drivers and RIL that make the device actually functional are the issue as far as I'm aware. From what I've read here and in IRC, Samsung gave us a hack-job RIL, which is causing many of the issues with getting an AOSP ROM fully compiled and working. I think there may be some driver issues as well to be worked out yet, but I feel those are less important than getting things like phone/data/messaging working. I'm guessing there are more technical reasons why they can't just get 2.1 or 2.2 built from source, but those are probably the big issues.

Honestly, it boils down to Samsung.
Put simply, they're crappy coders (as HTC once was many moons ago), or they're just hella lazy (I strongly believe its the former, given RFS and this RIL mess). Most companies are pretty crappy coders, but most of the time, it doesn't interfere with major things, like OS upgrades.
That, plus the lack of effort or support on Samsung's part, has me never wanting to buy another Samsung phone again, or ever recommending an Android phone from Samsung....
I'm gonna do my best to find in my next phone another quick processor with a nice super AMOLED screen and be done with Samsung, I've had enough, and I'm a very patient person....

What is RIL? Is this Radio Interface Library?
Is it linked into kernel or other module? Not extractable at all?
As I imagine it to myself, if it is some sort of dll or package, it shouldn't matter if we do not have source, because it's interface have to be already strictly defined. It doesn't matter if it is buggy. It should work with any android version.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
P.S. I have Dell Axim v50x and people already created ROM from scratch! However it doesn't have RIL. ;-)

CNemo7539 said:
What is RIL? Is this Radio Interface Library?
Is it linked into kernel or other module? Not extractable at all?
As I imagine it to myself, if it is some sort of dll or package, it shouldn't matter if we do not have source, because it's interface have to be already strictly defined. It doesn't matter if it is buggy. It should work with any android version.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
P.S. I have Dell Axim v50x and people already created ROM from scratch! However it doesn't have RIL. ;-)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if it could have been done, birdman would have done it already

Well I think it's a valid question. Some might think it tedious or obnoxious, but absolutely valid. This is a development forum after all. The reason we don't have 2.2 isn't a hardware limitation, so it must be a practical one -- or yes it would be here.
But I'll just speak from speculation in the hopes that someone will correct me. For god sakes this is a development forum! We've got releases, we have fixes, we have patches, we have complaints, we have gossip. I'd love to see all the _development_ discussion I can get.
From a wider puzzle-piece perspective, I would like to know what is missing. We have working drivers. We have working hardware. We have full source from Google for the operating system. There are several other android phones on Verizon, a few even have Froyo. Sprint currently offers a CDMA Galaxy S phone (Epic) with android 2.2, and that phone possibly shares some hardware (though the WIMAX radio is totally irrelevant to us).
I'm not up to speed on exactly what the RIL is, or how it gets plugged into the android kernel. The RIL (Radio Interface Layer) is a software layer between android itself and the drivers controlling the phone hardware. Google provides some samples for a carrier to create one to govern communication on their network. I'd expect one issue of randomly hacking something like this, is if you are taking over your radio hardware's communications, then you have the capability of putting unwanted data on the network, which might even be criminal. Am I being extreme? So, perhaps we can't touch the RIL and need to wait for it to be spoonfed to us by those that bought the radio band from the FCC. Perhaps this code is inexorably married to particular hardware, unavailable for reading, or even encrypted. Maybe the primary limitation is the royal pain in the apricots that it is to inspect, decompile, and reverse engineer binary code.
But what if we could do something?
My understanding is the RIL is only a carrier-specific interface to the underlying hardware. Shouldn't it be similar between phones, even with wildly different hardware? Shouldn't its interface also be similar between close versions of android? The Droid 2 is a verizon phone with a RIL that does indeed work with Froyo. What I'd like to know is A) can another phone's RIL be extracted within the same carrier, and B) Being the abstract entity that it is, what prevents it from being married to the Fascinate's hardware base?
To be honest, I ardently believe a frank discussion (sans opinions, complains, problems, just productive discussion w/ a smattering of facts) BELONGS in the Development forum.
I'll stop here, in case this thread dies, as so many of mine do.

Jt1134, adrynalyne, and fallingup(angel12) are all very capable as well. This is solely the fault of none other Samsung.
Edit: to answer your question, i think that.the answer about RIL is no, although i dont have a good qualified answer about why the RIL from D2 cant be ported im sure that if it could have, it would have. Sorry thats not a better answer.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App

I don't know anything about how the RIL works, but I would assume that it could only be easily ported from one device to another if they were using the same chipset in the underlying hardware for the phone. I doubt you'd be able to take the Droid 2/X RIL, and take it to the Droid 2 Global or Droid Pro. Given that, I'm guessing that you can't really take a RIL from one phone and put it on another without extensive work, since most OEMs tend to use different hardware in their devices. From what I've heard, there is a semi-working AOSP build floating around, so the devs are trying, but Samsung's crappy source to work from is not making things easy for them.

There are actually some semi-working builds of aosp floating arpunfld but the last time I checked one out it was missing one thing that I consider to be kind of a biggie. It couldn't quite make calls. I'm sure they have it to make calls now but there is a reason its not out to the forums yet. I agree withstand nuts up there. Thanks you Samsung.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App

ksizzle9 said:
There are actually some semi-working builds of aosp floating arpunfld but the last time I checked one out it was missing one thing that I consider to be kind of a biggie. It couldn't quite make calls. I'm sure they have it to make calls now but there is a reason its not out to the forums yet. I agree withstand nuts up there. Thanks you Samsung.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i believe there was still no radio at all in aosp, and the hope is that 2.2 can fill in the gaps

Wow, wow, wow!
Why do we need another phone RIL? Current one from SF at hand should do perfectly. Did Google changed something in android API related to a RIL? I don't know for sure, but never heard or read anything making me think they did it. Android should call RIL and that is set in stone. ALL calls signatures must to be known. Something new may be added, but it is not show stopper.
So, I still do not understand - is it not extractable or what?
Even if not and it is somewhere in protected memory, encoded or whatever, Froyo slapped on top must work, IMHO. And sources available. So, why we stuck waiting for Samsung?
I know, one may say - do it yourself if you are so smart... Once again, I just want to understand root of the problem. I probably can do something, because I have degree and experience. But, it will take me forever. From what I've tried and seen learning curve is very steep.
On the other hand, skilled developer might simply need fresh look at the problem... May be guys just hitting wrong wall?

CNemo7539 said:
Wow, wow, wow!
Why do we need another phone RIL? Current one from SF at hand should do perfectly. Did Google changed something in android API related to a RIL? I don't know for sure, but never heard or read anything making me think they did it. Android should call RIL and that is set in stone. ALL calls signatures must to be known. Something new may be added, but it is not show stopper.
So, I still do not understand - is it not extractable or what?
Even if not and it is somewhere in protected memory, encoded or whatever, Froyo slapped on top must work, IMHO. And sources available. So, why we stuck waiting for Samsung?
I know, one may say - do it yourself if you are so smart... Once again, I just want to understand root of the problem. I probably can do something, because I have degree and experience. But, it will take me forever. From what I've tried and seen learning curve is very steep.
On the other hand, skilled developer might simply need fresh look at the problem... May be guys just hitting wrong wall?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
is it possible? perhaps...but the 5 or so guys who really develop for this phone havent been able to get it to work....nor is aosp working 100% on any galaxy s phone

Response from developers?
Anyone?

Yes, you know so much, we are waiting for you to fix it.
Hurry the hell up.

adrynalyne said:
Yes, you know so much, we are waiting for you to fix it.
Hurry the hell up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agree get your ass moving so we can have teh honeycombzzzz. Quit being such a lazy stingy jerk and get us our AOSP!

ksizzle9 said:
Jt1134, adrynalyne, and fallingup(angel12) are all very capable as well. This is solely the fault of none other Samsung.
Edit: to answer your question, i think that.the answer about RIL is no, although i dont have a good qualified answer about why the RIL from D2 cant be ported im sure that if it could have, it would have. Sorry thats not a better answer.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes i was just pulling one dev name out for the heck of it
but i subscribe to the "if it could have been done, it would have been done"

adrynalyne said:
Yes, you know so much, we are waiting for you to fix it.
Hurry the hell up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't care what you did for community! But you behave like f****g jerk.
No real explanation for the rest of us? Stay on irc, we will survive without your comments here.

CNemo7539 said:
I don't care what you did for community! But you behave like f****g jerk.
No real explanation for the rest of us? Stay on irc, we will survive without your comments here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that may be a problem for those who just stay here as virtually everything is irc only these days...or the majority of it anyway

CNemo7539 said:
I don't care what you did for community! But you behave like f****g jerk.
No real explanation for the rest of us? Stay on irc, we will survive without your comments here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How many different ways do people need to say that "it's being worked on"? The devs are doing a lot of work on our device, but also working with other stuff, all in their free time. Follow the stuff they do on Twitter and github, or join in on IRC.
Attitudes such as your's are precisely why the devs have stopped posting stuff here. You act as though it's a simple process to do things, when it isn't, especially when Samsung gives you a crappy base to start from. The devs have to first get Samsung's source fixed and cleaned up, then start on whatever it is they want to work on, all while finding more bugs and issues that need fixed, primarily all stemming from the crappy source. If you want to be angry at someone, make it Samsung, not the few devs that are working on our device.
Sent from my StupidFast Voodoo Fascinate

As I said - I will survive. I'm OK even with not rooted stock.
Was it so difficult to answer what the real problem is? I don't know what is the problem with this generation? Do I need to be on FB, irc or whatever to get the answer? Why do not answer in place? Ain't it this forum purpose?
No, seems like I need to kiss somebody ass to get meaningful response these days... That way he can maintain his "super god" status.
I do believe I've been pretty polite stating my question, even though English is not my native language. What generated so much sarcasm?

Heads-up - Forum merge (G2 and Desire Z) is here !

I've been talking to svetius, the admin responsible for "User Experience" at XDA, and apparently the G2 and Desire Z forums are going to be merged very soon now.
So this is just a heads-up for everyone to expect this.
I think it's going to be a very very good thing, because after all the G2 and DZ are essentially the same phones and run the same custom ROMs, so it will be good to have everything in one place. I think it will also encourage people who develop things to check how they work on both the G2 and DZ.
I've no idea how existing threads are going to be handled, but I'm sure the mods have it all in hand.
So soon, we're going to be sharing a single audience, and G2's and DZ's have their own different stock ROMs (e.g. HTC Sense on the DZ, just for a start). So when we post up about a basic problem with out phones, it's going to make it even more important to say which phone/ROM we have !

Must be a good thing. A lot of people may think that they are completely different phones.

What it will do is reduce duplication and "walking distance" by keeping everything applicable in the same place.
The phones aren't "basically" the same, they are IDENTICAL. And don't say "frequency", because there are more than two sets of frequencies available on them despite having ONLY 2 common named.

sounds like a good idea to me

dhkr123 said:
What it will do is reduce duplication and "walking distance" by keeping everything applicable in the same place.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed. It's silly re-inventing the wheel for the DZ and G2 forums.
The phones aren't "basically" the same, they are IDENTICAL. And don't say "frequency", because there are more than two sets of frequencies available on them despite having ONLY 2 common named.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, to be fair, they're not identical, because they have different HBOOT, different partitioning (very small difference), and different keyboard layouts.
But all those are minor issues - we don't need to mess with HBOOT now we've got gfree, so that counts out the first issue. The second issue is I think only one for a stock ROM. And the third issue is a very common one on all phones, they usually are made with different keyboard layouts for different regions, and custom ROMs should be able to handle this by add-on keymaps, or even better, options to switch keyboard layout.

Sounds like a good idea to me. Gives assistance on both ends from knowledgeable users on both ends of the field. +1.
[G2/HTC Vision]

Great thinking. Right now it is like making a hospital for each person, based on their surnames. Lol.

****, i came from the TP2 section.. there are many different iterations of it (US=4-6 models because of US carriers -- Euro=5+ because of the different country languages).. many of them use different keyboard layouts.. but there was a quick fix by installing a keyboard fix .cab file (which i always had to use for my TmoUSA TP2 layout to fix the ALT key and the HOME button) since Cookers mainly used one ROM language & layout, which is WWE (world wide English).
but anyways, this shouldn't be a problem really, even tho the internals are a bit different.

Please tell me which you prefer:
1. Full Merge
Four forums (the usuals) for both the G2 and DZ
2. Dev Merge
Merge DZ with G2 dev forum, delete DZ dev forum (which will have zero threads). Keep individual G2/DZ forums for general, accessories, themes and apps.

svetius said:
Please tell me which you prefer:
1. Full Merge
Four forums (the usuals) for both the G2 and DZ
2. Dev Merge
Merge DZ with G2 dev forum, delete DZ dev forum (which will have zero threads). Keep individual G2/DZ forums for general, accessories, themes and apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems that their the only subsection which actually gets heavy usage is the General Forum. The rest is very very dead. I suggest a full merge of the all but the General Forum section. Most of their users are on the sense rom and most of ours are on the froyo stock. I think a full merge of the General forums will only produce confusion for the noods and make it harder for any order to come about. Perhaps we can leave the two general forums separated for now and slowly see if the amount of traffic will change on its own favoring one side. If so, one can be killed.
Link to Desire Z forums: http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=756

I feel a full merge would be more beneficial and less complicated...just my 2¢

Hmmm,... That does sound better than a full merge. General Desire Z, General G2, Q&A?, Accessories, Dev, Themes/Apps, .... all under HTC Vision.
I'll edit my reply at our end too.
Sent from my HTC Vision using XDA App

Just my opinion of course, and I respect everyone else's too, but aren't there a lot more "General" issues in common with both phones than unique ones ?

ddotpatel said:
Hmmm,... That does sound better than a full merge. General Desire Z, General G2, Q&A?, Accessories, Dev, Themes/Apps, .... all under HTC Vision.
I'll edit my reply at our end too.
Sent from my HTC Vision using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, just like that. All their other Desire Z section is super slow.

Full merge
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

svetius said:
Please tell me which you prefer:
1. Full Merge
Four forums (the usuals) for both the G2 and DZ
2. Dev Merge
Merge DZ with G2 dev forum, delete DZ dev forum (which will have zero threads). Keep individual G2/DZ forums for general, accessories, themes and apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know if this is a good idea... people will be bricking phones left and right. For example, the Magic and the Wizard. The wizard has a G4 board and a G3 board. Caused a lot of bricks before they were seperated. The Magic has a 32a and 32b... never seperated and still causes bricks because of different SPLs. They should have been seperated. The G2/Desire Z have different bootloaders and a completely different framework. This could cause more trouble than convience. I still think the Magic should be seperated into 32a and 32b dev sections...

sino8r said:
I don't know if this is a good idea... people will be bricking phones left and right. For example, the Magic and the Wizard. The wizard has a G4 board and a G3 board. Caused a lot of bricks before they were seperated. The Magic has a 32a and 32b... never seperated and still causes bricks because of different SPLs. They should have been seperated. The G2/Desire Z have different bootloaders and a completely different framework. This could cause more trouble than convience. I still think the Magic should be seperated into 32a and 32b dev sections...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yea i rather have them separated and not merged since they do differ a bit from each other.. i don't wanna see extra confusion, and extra clutter.. TP2 was a different story.. only GSM & CDMA was separated (not by US/Euro).. and all roms were mostly WWE & one keyboard layout.. so u would have to fix it (via .cab) post-flash.

I vote full merge. And i have to say that the g2 q n a is always active.
Sent from my HTC Vision using XDA App

full merge. im here most of the time anyways. Even some of the roms (evil D) contain 2 different versions in the same thread.

Vary true
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App