[Q] Charging with a non-Samsung USB cable - Vibrant General

So a buddy of mine told me today how his Samsung Moment can't hold a charge for more than 2 hours, the reason being that he's been using non-Samsung USB cables and apparently his phone doesn't like that.
This worried me because I use a Nokia USB cable that I have fixed to a port in the back of my desktop PC to easily connect/charge the phone while at my computer, in addition to using the Samsung one overnight, and a non-Samsung car charger when using Google Nav.
Now, I flashed JK6 a few days ago, and I've gotta say my battery life really isn't as stellar as everyone's saying it should be. My phone's been on for going on 8 hours now and I'm already down to 29%, with pretty moderate usage. No gaming, no GPS/bluetooth/WiFi, or anything fancy like that. Just some texting and web browsing. So, I'm a little worried I'm ruining my phone as well. Does anyone else seem to have short battery life that also happens to use non-Samsung USB cables to charge?

I use my cable from my Mytouch Slide and it works fine to charge up. I get about 10 hours of life on moderate usage.

Cable is fine...they all work the same overall (use a cable/watt/volt thingy to check).

That's what I was hoping to hear. Thanks guys!

All cables (99% of the time) are the same quality...all from asia (not a bad thing).

Related

Samsung Vibrant T959 Extended Battery?

I just got a samsung vibrant and i got 2 problems one is the screen when i get a message or something like that when the screen is locked it stays on i got to turn it off can some one help me fix that thanks
2 problem is the battery does not last me a full day and i got nothing on it i need a bigger battery asap or i got to return the phone my mytouch lasted longer than thins one please some one help me find a way to get it to last longer or a bigger battery thanks
I am wishing for an extended battery too. Currently, I'm using one of those Duracell pocket lithium ion USB batteries.
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0321688
Having another device and cable to carry around works, but is a pain...
my battery easily lasts a day. I can get through a full 9 hour day of work and still have 78% battery left. Not to mention I left my phone off the charger last night, got up 10 hours later and the battery only went down 3%
You sure you dont have any programs open? Also I don't use a task manager if that means anything to u
onyx550 said:
I just got a samsung vibrant and i got 2 problems one is the screen when i get a message or something like that when the screen is locked it stays on i got to turn it off can some one help me fix that thanks
2 problem is the battery does not last me a full day and i got nothing on it i need a bigger battery asap or i got to return the phone my mytouch lasted longer than thins one please some one help me find a way to get it to last longer or a bigger battery thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bought this, it took about 2 weeks to get to me,(but for 12.99 for 2 batteries and a wall charger) as it was coming from hongkong, but got it yesterday, and its great, 2 extra batteries, and a wall charger so now i dont even need to charge my phone, i let the battery die so i can train them right, and just pop in a fully charged one when needed. the charger even has a usb hookup like the original wall charger that came with it, so really you could charge an extra battery, plus the one in the phone through the usb cable. The batteries are the same as the stock one that came with the phone. I wish i would have done this with my G1, instead of spending 90 bucks on 1 extra battery that didnt even have an external charger.
http://cgi.ebay.com/2x-BATTERY-dock...20599053354?pt=PDA_Accessories#ht_2384wt_1137
mikey98277 said:
I bought this, it took about 2 weeks to get to me,(but for 12.99 for 2 batteries and a wall charger) as it was coming from hongkong, but got it yesterday, and its great, 2 extra batteries, and a wall charger so now i dont even need to charge my phone, i let the battery die so i can train them right, and just pop in a fully charged one when needed. the charger even has a usb hookup like the original wall charger that came with it, so really you could charge an extra battery, plus the one in the phone through the usb cable. The batteries are the same as the stock one that came with the phone. I wish i would have done this with my G1, instead of spending 90 bucks on 1 extra battery that didnt even have an external charger.
http://cgi.ebay.com/2x-BATTERY-dock...20599053354?pt=PDA_Accessories#ht_2384wt_1137
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, are the batteries of the same quality as the original?
Samsung Vibrant Extended Battery?
IM looking for a extended battery or a way to get my battery to last all day so that is what i need thanks
chaoscentral said:
my battery easily lasts a day. I can get through a full 9 hour day of work and still have 78% battery left. Not to mention I left my phone off the charger last night, got up 10 hours later and the battery only went down 3%
You sure you dont have any programs open? Also I don't use a task manager if that means anything to u
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would work, but I use the phone most of the day. It is not idle.
I take my phone off the charger at 5am @ 100%
Text most of the day at work with a 30 minute phone call at lunch...
Some moderate browsing and gaming...
I get home around 530pm, and "usually" have around 40%...
Mark271 said:
So, are the batteries of the same quality as the original?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They are Samsung batteries, they look exactly like the one that came with my phone( down to the details written on the battery, only different thing is the date which was from 6/10 where the one with my phone was 7/10 and the s/n number), so I would say yes it is the same quality.
Mark271 said:
So, are the batteries of the same quality as the original?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i bought the same set of batteries and charger. i'm still going through the charging/cycling phases with these new batteries. i'm not sure if they are on par with the stock batteries but i'll soon find out after a few more charges.
I am still doing that also, but I have to say that the wall charger is worth the money so even if the batteries don't work out, at least I have this awesome dual wall charger!
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
mikey98277 said:
I am still doing that also, but I have to say that the wall charger is worth the money so even if the batteries don't work out, at least I have this awesome dual wall charger!
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I am more than likely going to buy one, seems handy. It helps that it is dirt cheap.
mikey98277 said:
I am still doing that also, but I have to say that the wall charger is worth the money so even if the batteries don't work out, at least I have this awesome dual wall charger!
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
haha yeah i was about to say the same thing. charges pretty fast and has a cool blue and red-pink colored charger indicator
so far. the batteries are not on par with the stock battery. i work eight hours shifts. my battery runs down to 35-40 pct with moderate usage i.e. facebook, youtube, casual browsing by the time i leave work.
these ebay batteries drain all the way down to 5 pct by the time i leave work and on the eigth hour. i'm on my third charge cycle. hopefully i'll see some improvement this week.
here's what i have running in the background on my phone at work the whole day:
aquarium live wallpaper
facebook widget
twitter widget
beautiful widgets clock
engadget widget
tikl push to talk app.
each widget is set to update every two hours
I was looking at this:
http : //cgi . ebay . com/2x-Battery-USB-AC-Car-Charger-zu-Samsung-I9000-Galaxy-S_W0QQitemZ180543282222QQcategoryZ20336QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DMRU-15032%252BUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%252BDDSIC%26otn%3D20%26pmod%3D160468248236%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6318287668313258463#ht_2099wt_1137
But now, I'm considering this:
mugenpoweronline . com/product_info.php?products_id=790
My only gripe is the price tag though.
Peace
S II
I got the same type of deal on ebay, 2 batteries & the charger (did the same thing with my MT3G as well), it's always nice having extra batteries, and I can use the charger when I'm traveling (it will also charge up my PSP). Now just need to get a mini to micro USB adapter and I have one less cable to carry around for charging - although I recently got an external drive for data storage, so I guess I will need a second cable if I want to tether my phone and use the external drive.
The batteries are not as good as stock and one seems to hold a charge better than the other (have to mark them so I remember which is which - these are generic one without the Samsung label), but as I train them via charge, use until dead, swap, charge, this should at least max them out a bit. The ones I had for my MT3G actually outperformed the original battery that came with so was hoping for the same. But considering how cheap these are, I could even pick up a couple more.
ryan562 said:
i bought the same set of batteries and charger. i'm still going through the charging/cycling phases with these new batteries. i'm not sure if they are on par with the stock batteries but i'll soon find out after a few more charges.
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Click to collapse
Those batteries from Hong Kong are not an original Samsung battery, they are just compatibles.
The lasting power of a li-on battery depends not just on the mAh, also the circuit inside the battery counts much of it.
The circuit takes care of the special sleep modes and energy saving features of a battery.
Samsung has its own energy saving codes that can not be put into a common compatible batteries.
This is why an original one is much more expensive than a compatible ones.
Extended battery for the vibrant, lasts twice as long and great door
Check this out: Moretalktime's feedback is 100% and the door is soft rubberized--better than stock IMO. It cradles well in your hand in a very comfortable position and lasts over twice as long.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...89815&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#ht_999wt_1139
Re: Batteries not lasting all day
I'd like to throw in an observation on this thread. My battery life is quite good on my Vibrant. Lasts all day easily but there are a couple of things to take notice of. First, I do not use any task killers or such, but I do check if there are any running programs with the built in task manager and stop them once I'm through with them. I've found that Voice Search and Web Access continue to run even after I've closed or backed out of them. Thus the need for use of task manager. But here's what I really found out. I've always charged my phone using the wall adapter with USB cable plugged into it. Never had a problem with battery life. Then for some reason, I decided to start using the USB cable attached to my computer. It would charge as normal and each morning it showed 100% charged. But after about 1 week of using the USB cable from the PC to charge the phone, I started having the horrible battery issues that I've read about. Extremely fast discharge. Leave at 8am and have like 50% use at noon. Crazy. So I started using the wall charger again and the phone has returned to its original state, easily lasting all day. Just a heads up for some of you guys having battery problems. No idea why this has happened but I've confirmed it. Maybe the Power Management thing on the USB ports on the PC?
I just saw this thread after a search on Google. I already posted elsewhere, but this looks like it might be the battery some of you are looking for.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10055333&postcount=80
If nothing else, they also sell a 1600mAh battery which is 100mAh larger than the stock battery and still fits unter the stock cover. Good Luck
-Adam

USB Charging Kills HD2 like in one day?

Hey! Guys I am having problems with the USB Charging, it seems to drain the 100% charged battery quicker (while using the phone, unplugged NOT charging) like one day and I have to charge the phone again, But when i charge my phone (100% charge) using the wall charger my phone lasts two and a half days. My wife also said she experiences the same thing with USB charged HTC Trinity Phone. I have tried on different computers and laptops as well but still the same and i know that USB charging will take longer to charge (500mah) so i leave the phone over night like 9 hours but the phone drains like juice. What kind of a Phenomenon is this.. Guys i need your humble thoughts and solutions on this because this is becoming a big problem for me since i use USB charging mostly... Plus I am not a very hardcore app, wifi or games user on the phone either... Darn...
same problem
I don't know why but i meting with the same problem. No idea why this happening it should be same from electric perspective.
When the phone cahrges via computer USB, the phone charges at a rate of around 90mA due to the phone running. Try with the phone off
Tried that as well, but it seems to be the quite the same but little difference since it last a little longer but still drained out in one freakin day. I am pulling my hair off because of this problem.. darn why is this just so... i mean like in the second post the process should be electronically identical right. only difference is it takes more time to charge from USB.... Grrrrr!
my phone hardly last one day..How do you make it last for 2 1/2 days?
xiyan2127 said:
Tried that as well, but it seems to be the quite the same but little difference since it last a little longer but still drained out in one freakin day. I am pulling my hair off because of this problem.. darn why is this just so... i mean like in the second post the process should be electronically identical right. only difference is it takes more time to charge from USB.... Grrrrr!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Battery indicators do lie.
it all depends upon if your board can deliver enough current to run the phone and charge it. on my rig i see no difference between wall charger and laptop or desktop charging
the laptop is a studio 15 with an i5 and h55 chipset and the desktop is a core 2d machine with a p45 series chipset.
you can tell the phone to disable usb charging if the phone is on while connected to usb to see if that helps (it will still charge via USB if the phone is off)
anhyeuemmaimai said:
it all depends upon if your board can deliver enough current to run the phone and charge it. on my rig i see no difference between wall charger and laptop or desktop charging
the laptop is a studio 15 with an i5 and h55 chipset and the desktop is a core 2d machine with a p45 series chipset.
you can tell the phone to disable usb charging if the phone is on while connected to usb to see if that helps (it will still charge via USB if the phone is off)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
any usb not from china will give about 500mah, whether it be my i7 laptop or z550 vaio, so specific components shouldn't matter.
usb charges a little slower, but no reason it should not last as long once its got all the amps it can take. weird situation man...my huge list of htc phones never had an issue, and i do use a work computer to charge via usb sometimes
Thanks for your thoughts guys!!!
Weird... Yeah thats the thing i am also using a Core i7 930 CPU and my motherboard is ASUS ROG Rampage III Gene board, so i don't think my system is the problem here...
The wall charger delives 2 amperes to our HTC phones while usb ports delivery only 500mA (0,5 amperes). It's not only a matter of charging slower but you can't deliver the full charge the battery needs to revert the chemical process of discharging when tou use usb port. With 2amperes the charging process reachs it's maximum.
bravo261 said:
any usb not from china will give about 500mah, whether it be my i7 laptop or z550 vaio, so specific components shouldn't matter.
usb charges a little slower, but no reason it should not last as long once its got all the amps it can take. weird situation man...my huge list of htc phones never had an issue, and i do use a work computer to charge via usb sometimes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
some cheap mainboards cannot supply even 500ma. a good qaulity board can supply more.
want to test it? put your HD2 in the first USB port and then put a high power device like a wireless dongle or external USB HDD in the second and see what happens. if your board cannot power both, you'll drop your wireless/hdd connection when you plug your phone in.
Phone Usage...
mbrown3460 said:
my phone hardly last one day..How do you make it last for 2 1/2 days?
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Click to collapse
Sir I have said that I am not a very heavy phone using guy, I am an average phone user. Plus I dont use the 3g or data connection here in my country since the connections are snail slow and prices are over the head and there is no unlimited data package here yet. I use the Wifi sometimes to update my twitter, Rss hub, facebook, weather tabs and very little market place... So my phone lasts for two and a half days when i use the wall charger.
Oh yeah and Guys, i tried recalibrating the battery by using it till the phone died completely and recharging it with USB (phone turned off) for like a day but still it drains faster than the wall charger rate.... I dont understand really...
Bicalho said:
The wall charger delives 2 amperes to our HTC phones while usb ports delivery only 500mA (0,5 amperes). It's not only a matter of charging slower but you can't deliver the full charge the battery needs to revert the chemical process of discharging when tou use usb port. With 2amperes the charging process reachs it's maximum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is why. The awnser was given, but people ignored it. To fully charge a battery it needs more amperes. Use the wall charger. The battery indicator lies, and is unable to acuratly measure a fully charged battery. It'll display 100% when it's roughly 70%.
Our batteries use Lithium ions as means of electricity. They use a Lithium compound, and move the ions from the negative to the positive pole. When there are no more ions to move, our batteries are discharged. When we connect to an external power source, the higher voltage will draw the ions back to the "negative pole".
USB supplies 500 mA (that's 0.5A) @ 5V (per specification, some motherboards won't be able to go that high, depending number of USB devices connected, etc)
European electrical sockets supply up to 2.5A @ 230V and although your HTC charger should only output 1A @ 5V, the topping off will occur much quicker.
Basically the more you have to charge, the more time it takes, and the bigger the effort on the current to pull the remaining ions back to the negative pole.
I am finding that in Android, my phone will not charge with either wall or usb charging. The phone shows that it is charging but does not actually charge. This is really unacceptable. It works in Windows Mobile but is not a listed problem of the Android builds. Are all of you using WM6.5 or Android? Or both?
jaylc said:
I am finding that in Android, my phone will not charge with either wall or usb charging. The phone shows that it is charging but does not actually charge. This is really unacceptable. It works in Windows Mobile but is not a listed problem of the Android builds. Are all of you using WM6.5 or Android? Or both?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can Charge my HD2 well on both OS's but still when compared to android and WinMo when i use the USB Android does discharge heavily than WinMO and Android does the same when compared to WinMO on wall charger use as well... So nothing much more to say at that...
Charging mobiles using USB takes alot longer than using power outlet and this is valid for all kind of mobiles, ALSO when you charge by USB your mobiles battery drains much faster than charging from power outlet. (Electrical Engineers say so).
NOW why you don't use power outlet to charge your HD2 rather than using USB?
There are safety measures in charging from USB like, static issues from wall charger in some countries and then there is the ease of use from charging from PC while you are at work or away on a business trip..
mbrown3460 said:
my phone hardly last one day..How do you make it last for 2 1/2 days?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mine lives for 5 days on just 1 charge, and with normal use (every 2/3 hours updating weather and twitter, sometimes call, sometimes texting, sometimes using internet)

Charge Cable Issues

I purchased a cheap (.99 cent) USB data cable for my SGS off of eBay from Korea. It worked well, or so I assumed at first, charging my device and working fine with the outlet charge that came in my box as well as working for data transfer.
Originally my first charge of my SGS lasted a poor 12 hours. The second charge lasted a much better time. And the longest mine has ever gone without being plugged in is about 32 hours, this is with low use however. Maybe 5 minutes of talk time total, 100 sms sent and several web pages viewed on WiFi and 3G. This is much much better compared to my 3gs.
Anyways.. After about 4 days of the new cable I had noticed that my charge time was lasting significantly shorter amounts of time every day I used it. Each morning the phone would confirm fully charged and I would unplug it. It would usually end up dieing sometime before I went to bed. Basically it would only last 14 hours and this is with very minimal use. Mostly standby, in fact, probably about 12 hours of those 14 hours is standby.
So I switched back to my original cable that came in the box when I purchased my SGS and today the phone is holding a charge much better and still indicates full charge after 10 hours since I woke up this morning.
I guess what I am trying to say is that it seems (for whatever reason and if you know PLEASE enlighten me) that the after market cable was doing something strange. Even though it charged my device and the SGS indicated it was at 100% please unplug. It still didn't last as long as when I use the original cable. Anybody know why?
So I suggest steering away from cables that may not be official. Or at least the ones that cost less than a dollar XD.
i think the problem is with the battery and not the cable
the cable either works, or don't work, there is no in between.
I was reading a thread last night on XDA about cheap cables but i forget which one. Im sure it was in Galaxy Accessories though.
The guys there were having similar charging issues or it not even recognising the phone being connected. One of them checked the cable on a multimetre and found it was giving a lower voltage than the original (if i remember right it was about 0.2 volts) so maybe that's your cause?
You would think a cable is just a cable but it seems lower costs mean lower quality materials.
i was not talking about the current transfer,
i was talking about the full charge, and drainging quick, has no relation to the cheap cable
yes the cheap cable might be poor at charging the battery, but it doesn't affect how the battery discharges after it's full
afleck said:
I guess what I am trying to say is that it seems (for whatever reason and if you know PLEASE enlighten me) that the after market cable was doing something strange. Even though it charged my device and the SGS indicated it was at 100% please unplug. It still didn't last as long as when I use the original cable. Anybody know why?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He seems to be still using the same battery but has switched the cable and the problem has gone or at least improved.
I remember my old HTC Diamond, charged via USB (lower voltage) would last less than half the time on a supposedly 100% charge. A full charge on the mains socket (higher voltage) would bring the longer holding charge time back.
I guess we need an update from the OP as to whether changing only the cable 'did' fix it.
the point is i don't see any scientific reasonable logic behind it.
AFAIK that's not how the charged power inside a battery works.
Well I have read a bit more about charging from a USB port on the computer than charging from the wall charger.
Many people seem to experience shorter battery life when charging a device (specifically I read about the iPhone cause it was there) connected to a PC via USB. Usable battery time increased when charging via outlet charger.
I am sure there is a scientific explanation for this. Just because we don't know it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am interested in this and am going to research it some more.
Perhaps some people should try charging via a PC and USB to see if their battery life diminishes more quickly.
i charge via the PC at work and home for my internal phone battery
the spares are charged separately with a stand alone charger
i see no difference in runtime between wall or PC charged batteries
i'm a heavy user i can drain the entire battery in 4 hours be it wall charged or PC charged
my average battery time when i don't go heavy on it, is 12 hours
on a normal day i need 1 battery pack for AM, and another 1 battery pack for PM

[Q] USB plugged in all day

Is it alright to have the SGT plugged into a USB port all day (approx 9hrs) ? I'd like to have it keep its charge (maybe even gain a little) while I'm at work so I can have a decent amount of juice for the trip home and until i go to bed. Or is this a good way of burning out my battery real quick? Thoughts?
Oh and as a side note on USB charging, I was able to get from 15% to 99% in 7hrs with the screen off the whole time.
Is it a slow-charging USB port? Or is it a powered hub? If I'm not mistaken, slow-charging a lithium-ion based battery pack is actually better for its life as opposed to rapid charging.
Its the regular port on the PC not even high speed usb so i guess it isn't powered.hmm guess the charging part is OK..but what about leaving it plugged all day even if the battery is at 100%?
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
All usb ports are powered by definition. They can supply up to 500ma (half an amp). Dont worry about leaving your tab plugged in, devices are smart enough these days not to overcharge the battery.
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
TheCoda said:
All usb ports are powered by definition. They can supply up to 500ma (half an amp). Dont worry about leaving your tab plugged in, devices are smart enough these days not to overcharge the battery.
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Coda is right, technically they all have power . If not, how would any device charge? I guess I really meant to say USB ports charge at a higher MA or something for rapid charging (wall-socket USB adapters?).
Also, Coda is right again. Devices these days are fairly smart. I typically leave my HD2 plugged in all the time with no problems.
itll be just fine plugged in!
ive been part-charging mine at random intervals (sometimes for 20 mins at a time a few times a day) and leaving it charging over a day from both powered hub and charger over about five months... though i have had two or three near total discharges
the battery has got better, which is what you would expect from the tech - sammy even provides a nice notification telling you the device is fully chraged
i wonder if they put that in there to account for unexpected battery problems down the line? in any case, ive read that low-powered charging, even unregistered by the battery, will increase the lifetime of the battery and also charge at approximately the same rate... ive seen this with my phones charging over pc usb
Great! Nothing to worry about then. The tab would look really cool on my office desk sporting the same screensaver as my PC ..'the Matrix' scrolling code.
I think it is OK. I bought a 2d adapter, one for the office. Since Sammy is selling docks, it also means that it can be powered all times. On the other hand I remember my Archos which I used to leave it on its dock all times... battery was killed in a short time. When you sell multimedia charging docks it means that you can leave it there, no? Not in the case of Archos.

[Q] recently Verrrry slow charge: Charger/cable got damaged?

At first when I got my nexus 10, it was charging quite nice, overnight would charge from 30% to 100%, but recently it stopped doing so, for example tonight after 8 hours it got from 35% to 70%, all stock: same cable, same charger.
Also, sometimes I used to put it on charge while using it, like when watching video, and it used to charge even if slow, now when doing this it says charging but the battery level goes down....
can the stock charger or cable be damaged? why did it stop charging fast overtime?
I used the its usb cable and charger few times to charge my new OnePlus, which requires a high ampere charge, can this cause the charger to overwork and then damaging its power output?
I read about the pogo charger does the job better, but I also read about the 28/24 usb cables, and I guess that the stock cable is 28/28, they did it like this to sell pogo charger cables. but the main issue here is that with the same combination it was better a month ago....
I have multiple chargers around the house with various amperages that I use for all devices, except I do have a bit of fear using my oneplus chargers with others for your same reason
About a month ago we decided it was worth it to buy the pogo dock on eBay for our nexus ten so it can be used as a digital picture frame when not in use, great decision, it seems to charge faster than any of the other chargers and get to see pics of our newborn all day as well
Consider either this or buying a new cable/charger for much less money. Either way my best guess is this is what you need, but you can always try a factory reset or reflash stock to see if it is a software issue
mcbyte_it said:
At first when I got my nexus 10, it was charging quite nice, overnight would charge from 30% to 100%, but recently it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mine had the exact same problem after about 15 months use. Combine the slow charging with the atrocious battery life and you're left with a barely usable tablet. I later bought the pogo cable and switched chargers to no avail. Then I just said screw this and sold it.
My nexus is 3 months old, so it can't suffer from battery wear down in such little time.
Will try resetting the whole thing and try again....

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