RyanZA's OCLF post JI6 - Vibrant General

I'm contemplating using RyanZA's OCLF app to root. My Vibrant has some issues that I'm hoping to correct with root access.
Anyways, does this app (from the market) still work post JI6? I've read that the lag fix doesn't seem to do much anymore, is this correct?
Also, When I run the rooting part of the app, is does it's thing and says reboot to the download mode or whatever, I get into that no problem, but then what do I do?? Volume up and down to move, power to select, but which option do I choose? Everything walk through I've found skips right over this tidbit.
If I remember right, one says reinstall packages, another is erase user data, etc.
Just a little guidance and assurance that this app still works would be great.
Thanks.

atvman29 said:
I'm contemplating using RyanZA's OCLF app to root. My Vibrant has some issues that I'm hoping to correct with root access.
Anyways, does this app (from the market) still work post JI6? I've read that the lag fix doesn't seem to do much anymore, is this correct?
Also, When I run the rooting part of the app, is does it's thing and says reboot to the download mode or whatever, I get into that no problem, but then what do I do?? Volume up and down to move, power to select, but which option do I choose? Everything walk through I've found skips right over this tidbit.
If I remember right, one says reinstall packages, another is erase user data, etc.
Just a little guidance and assurance that this app still works would be great.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are rooted, have superuser, busy box installed & clockwork mod installed. then you should be able to select reinstall packages and that should take you rite into clockwork recovery menu.

chichu_9 said:
If you are rooted, have superuser, busy box installed & clockwork mod installed. then you should be able to select reinstall packages and that should take you rite into clockwork recovery menu.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But I'm not rooted, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

atvman29 said:
I'm contemplating using RyanZA's OCLF app to root. My Vibrant has some issues that I'm hoping to correct with root access.
Anyways, does this app (from the market) still work post JI6? I've read that the lag fix doesn't seem to do much anymore, is this correct?
Also, When I run the rooting part of the app, is does it's thing and says reboot to the download mode or whatever, I get into that no problem, but then what do I do?? Volume up and down to move, power to select, but which option do I choose? Everything walk through I've found skips right over this tidbit.
If I remember right, one says reinstall packages, another is erase user data, etc.
Just a little guidance and assurance that this app still works would be great.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It worked on my Vibrant.
When in recovery, the selection to choose is the reinstall packages.
I didn't immediately apply the lagfix after JI6, as stock did have some performances gains. But after a few weeks, I was noticing some of the old lag issues again. At that point, I installed the lag fix again, (I had it installed before JI6) and saw some good results, not as drastic as before, but the problem wasn't as severe as it was right after launch.

Thegreatheed said:
It worked on my Vibrant.
When in recovery, the selection to choose is the reinstall packages.
I didn't immediately apply the lagfix after JI6, as stock did have some performances gains. But after a few weeks, I was noticing some of the old lag issues again. At that point, I installed the lag fix again, (I had it installed before JI6) and saw some good results, not as drastic as before, but the problem wasn't as severe as it was right after launch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So after I click reinstall packages, I just let it do its thing? Once i reboot, I will be rooted?

atvman29 said:
So after I click reinstall packages, I just let it do its thing? Once i reboot, I will be rooted?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes, use OCLF to root....there is no danger in it, then reboot into stock recovery and choose reinstall packages....then reboot and you are rooted....HOWEVER, after you reboot your phone, mount your sd card to your PC, and move "update.zip" from your internal SD to your EXTERNAL SD...this will make way for ClockwordMod's update.zip
^^If youre going to root it was 100% recommended that you flash ClockworkMod's recovery, find it here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=734164

TopShelf10 said:
yes, use OCLF to root....there is no danger in it, then reboot into stock recovery and choose reinstall packages....then reboot and you are rooted....HOWEVER, after you reboot your phone, mount your sd card to your PC, and move "update.zip" from your internal SD to your EXTERNAL SD...this will make way for ClockwordMod's update.zip
^^If youre going to root it was 100% recommended that you flash ClockworkMod's recovery, find it here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=734164
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do I install the clockwork app before or after root? Is that just for bailing you out of a bad situation essentially?

atvman29 said:
Do I install the clockwork app before or after root? Is that just for bailing you out of a bad situation essentially?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thats one thing its for, but it serves many functions....backup/restore, flashing roms/kernels/mods, wiping, etc.

TopShelf10 said:
thats one thing its for, but it serves many functions....backup/restore, flashing roms/kernels/mods, wiping, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So install it immediately following root?

I installed RyanZA's OCLF straight from the Market on JI6, and so far I have to say the user experience is much more responsive. The JI6 update made things noticeably better in terms of responsiveness, but the OCLF has made this thing almost "snappy".
I haven't installed Clockwork recovery (yet) as I'm still puzzling over exactly what to do (what to copy and where) now that the OCLF rooting and lag fixes are installed.

Rooted Samsung Vibrant, Kernel 2.6.29 JI6
Ryan I installed your lagfix, but Quadrant Score almost identical than before lagfix install. I know many thumb their nose at these benchmark scores, but I was expecting a big change. Anything I could have done wrong?
thanks in advance for any help!!

****update*****
I knew something could be done to better this so I messed around a little. I originally installed OCLF V1+ ...... and the V1+ Quadrant score was the same as pre-OCLF around 835 ... uninstalled that and went to OCLF V2+ ....... OMG this is insane!!!
After going to OCLF V2+ - Quadrant score exploded to 2118 ..... wicked. I tried to swamp this thing but that's just not happening.
Thank you RyanZA

Related

Bricked Vibrant, Assistance greatly appreciated

Hi all,
Sot of new to modding, think I screwed up and could use some help. Was doing this one click speed fix: forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=7587405&postcount=417
It didn't appear to work the first time, as I received a message and exited the application, however the symbol was still in the notification bar. Re-ran it, and it seemed to have worked, mostly, as the phone was blazing fast. Went immediately to run quadrant and check the benchmark, but it force closed every time it hit the i/o section. tried to go to market, foreclose every time. Figured it may need a reboot, powered off, and that's was all she wrote.
I can get into the battery charging screen and have been able to get to recovery, but nothing else. I haven't used adb or ODIN at all yet, but any assistance is greatly appreciated.
The phone was already rooted, and i have titanium back up and nandroid backups, but don't really know how to get to them.
If you did a nandroid backup, just go in recovery screen and restore backup. If not, flash back to stock rom.
well maybe i dont know what im talking about then. I guess I thought i did a nandroid.
When i go into recovery i get four options: reboot system now, reinstall packages, clear all user data, clear cache data.
none of them work
Did you install clock work recovery via Rom manager?
well it has turned on now. removed sim and memory card and hit reinstall packages. ive got the standard twlauncher running but, it repeatedly gives me force close notifications that android.process.media has stopped and i cannot access the menu
s15274n said:
Did you install clock work recovery via Rom manager?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes, i did. i remember doing that precisely as shown in your tips and tricks thread
alright, so i got it into download mode, gonna reflash everything to stock and see where i went wrong as outlined here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=734475
Will update with results, but would be nice to figure out where i went wrong so as not to repeat the error.
If you can get into recovery just wipe and reflash eugenes vibrant4.zip.
Alright, back to stock. unrooted also? gonna mess some more and see if i can get my clockword recovery to restore everything.
okay, so my theory is that the lag fix i used installed an update.zip that overwrote the clockword mod one. Now im just trying to restore using titanium backup, but it is telling me that it doesnt have root access. i know im rooted, as i just did it and reinstalled rom manager and drocap. hmmmmm.....
Thats not all thats funny. i cant find the superuser app anywhere on here. also, i cannot install one from the market.
and im having issues with root explorer.
Civil Disobedient said:
okay, so my theory is that the lag fix i used installed an update.zip that overwrote the clockword mod one. Now im just trying to restore using titanium backup, but it is telling me that it doesnt have root access. i know im rooted, as i just did it and reinstalled rom manager and drocap. hmmmmm.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DAKIDD236 said:
If you can get into recovery just wipe and reflash eugenes vibrant4.zip.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would re-root and then follow the flash the ROM mentioned above. There is a thread in the DEV forum.
Civil Disobedient said:
okay, so my theory is that the lag fix i used installed an update.zip that overwrote the clockword mod one. Now im just trying to restore using titanium backup, but it is telling me that it doesnt have root access. i know im rooted, as i just did it and reinstalled rom manager and drocap. hmmmmm.....
Thats not all thats funny. i cant find the superuser app anywhere on here. also, i cannot install one from the market.
and im having issues with root explorer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to root again to get the superuser on your phone. As for the one click lag fix, I used to original method and it went pretty well. No problems so far. I also flashed Vibrant4 by Eugene before doing the lag fix. Hope it helps
same thing happened to me. I'm stuck on the galaxy S boot screen. i can get into the samsung recovery screen but not the clockwork recovery. I backed up my nandroid and Rom but don't know how to get into the menu to restore. I only have the update.zip for the lag fix on the internal sd so can't restore that way. Any ideas? Much appreciated.
kwbdc said:
same thing happened to me. I'm stuck on the galaxy S boot screen. i can get into the samsung recovery screen but not the clockwork recovery. I backed up my nandroid and Rom but don't know how to get into the menu to restore. I only have the update.zip for the lag fix on the internal sd so can't restore that way. Any ideas? Much appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There may be other ways around it, but I restored fully to stock, then re-rooted. I'm back up and running no problem now. Had some issues with titanium backup but got around that and its batch restoring as i type.
Civil Disobedient said:
There may be other ways around it, but I restored fully to stock, then re-rooted. I'm back up and running no problem now. Had some issues with titanium backup but got around that and its batch restoring as i type.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would you mind saying how you did that?
I tried wiping and flashing the stock via renaming it update.zip, and I'm still getting FC city. Mostly media, but, calendar, everything. I'm going to post a link to this in that thread, since many, it seems, were left hanging in a boot loop.
Janis said:
Would you mind saying how you did that?
I tried wiping and flashing the stock via renaming it update.zip, and I'm still getting FC city. Mostly media, but, calendar, everything. I'm going to post a link to this in that thread, since many, it seems, were left hanging in a boot loop.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just follow what I did through the thread.
I did this http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=734475 to get back to complete stock, then i had to root it twice. Once did the one click, then the good root here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=7150299&postcount=1
back up and running. had to research about titanium backup to get it up and running. I want to do the lag fix still, but im nervous from before.
Your nervous? I really would like to do this but i'm scared (cuss)less.
I've read what needs to be done and think that I've figured it out.
(pretty new to droid)... but, have also read the horror stories here
about bricking your phone...which nowadays can happen to any
phone you have....don't get me started on the apple pie!
But, really when it gets a simple as installing an .APK I'll be happy.
Damitu said:
Your nervous? I really would like to do this but i'm scared .......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The galaxy s seems pretty hard to brick. I'd say just go for the lag fix. Worse thing that happens is you have to take like 15min to download and use odin to reflash to stock. The lag fix seems pretty safe as long as you stay rooted
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Vibrant Recovery Mode HowTo
THIS GUIDE WORKED ON USA T-MOBILE SAMSUNG VIBRANT BUT MAY VERY WELL WORK ON ALL SAMSUNG GALAXYS PHONES
After reading many XDA-Developers Forum Posts to try and figure out how to get into the Recovery Mode / Download Mode without any success, I gave T-Mobile Support a call.
After the usual noop run-down, "did you take the battery out" questions, I simply asked them how to get the Samsung Vibrant into recovery mode.
Unline the many tutorials that claim to require the Up or Down button pressed, along with the Home button then the Power, the true process is as follows:
1. Press the Up and the Down button at the same time (yes both). I too thought that button was a Toggle which only did either Up or Down, but found that in fact it does do both.
2. At the same time, press the power button.
3. As soon as the Samsung / Vibrant logo comes up on the screen, release the power button.
4. Release the Up and Down buttons.
5. PRESTO

0.00 internal memory, not Voodoo related

So I tried installing the new ASOP rom, and was getting a bunch of force closes. I tried using CWM to revert to a previous backup, unfortunately the force closes continued in the backup. So I want into ODIN to get back to stock. I loading the stock files, did a factory reset, and everything seemed to be fine. However when I went into the market to reinstall appbrain and get my programs back, I kept getting an Out of Space error. I checked the internal memory and sure enough it says 0.00.
I've never installed Voodoo on my phone, because I was trying to avoid issues just like this one. I read over the a similar thread on this issue, but that fix isn't working for me. I tried to reroot, but the SU apk's don't have any place to go, since the phone says there is 0 internal memory.
Luckily I can still use my phone, but every time it turns off it resets, and I can't load my apps back on. Anyone got any suggestions?
The fix should still work for you. I would suggest flashing stock rom, kernel, pit, and cwmrecovery thru odin. After that you can follow the instructions posted on how to completely remove voodoo. Main thing is you need to get the original mbr to your phone.
Well he said he never installed voodoo so he shouldn't have to go through the steps to remove something he never installed in the first place
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
ckochinsky125 said:
Well he said he never installed voodoo so he shouldn't have to go through the steps to remove something he never installed in the first place
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm I read that part too, but if he follows adrynalyne instructions he should be fine. It is taking care of the same problem. Corrupted rfs. The op just achieved it in a different way. If that does not work for him then maybe some dev will be able to figure out another way to fix the problem.
I'd be curious to see mount results.
Run it from adb shell.
So the short story is I fixed my phone, from force close and zero memory hell.
I noticed when booting into recovery I was getting an error related to /dev/block/mmcblk0. I used the adb code to install the MBR file. Went in CWM and flashed the stock.zip kernel, restarted and got a ton of force closes. Went to the "How to escape the force close loop of hell" thread over at androidcentral, flashed the stock nandroid image, and someway, somehow the android gods took pity on my poor soul and my internal memory partition was restored.
I don't understand exactly how I fixed my phone, and I'm relatively new to this so I'm a little concerned. I'd like to learn from these mistakes, so does anyone understand what I did to fix my phone?
Sounds like it was the nandroid image that did it.
It is, effectively, the same issue the voodoo users have seen.
My "easy" fix was almost exactly the same as yours.
replace mbr, flash stock, revert to backup (which is basically what nandroid is).
I used my original CWM backup instead, and that worked for me. (I now have this stored on several drives/devices)
I also went back in to Root Explorer and nuked the "databases" folder in /dbdata and then wiped cache/data (CWM, then "settings"). Pretty much fixed it all for me.
Couldn't update to D101 for some reason after that, but the unsigned apk for that did the trick nicely. I suppose I'll have to retry the "odin to stock" bit if the 2.2 update fails the same way on me. Not looking forward to that one...

0B phone storage, first time set up on every boot?

Well, I was fine up until last night when I went to flash back to a old backup I had after not being pleased with what I had downloaded. That somehow brought me to some odd stock rom, I have no idea how really but I had lost vibration and these issues started. I then used Odin's stock file stock files to get back to what should be stock, but I'm not having both of these problems. Every time my phone boots it runs though the first time setup regardless if I follow though the whole thing or not. I also can not install anything like Rom Manager because my phone has no storage left. My SD card was also formatted at some point while I tried to fix all these issues last night.
At this point I have no idea how to proceed. I've tried rooting and I just get a failed message after my reboot. I'm stuck at this point.
Is this a development question? There are many threads about this issue. Search: use it
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
wizang said:
Is this a development question? There are many threads about this issue. Search: use it
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have no idea why I posted this here. Really sorry. I'll delete it in a second, but I have searched several times and none of the fixes I've found work.
yes there are alot of threads with the same problem>
did you install voodoo kernel and did not remove voodoo before reverting back?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=804784
also here is the original topic called "FIXED 0.00 internal storage problem". it was several pages in.
itstee said:
yes there are alot of threads with the same problem>
did you install voodoo kernel and did not remove voodoo before reverting back?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=804784
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe at this point that is what my problem is. WHen I try to get into CWM I don't have update.zip on my sdcard any more.
sonofskywalker3 said:
also here is the original topic called "FIXED 0.00 internal storage problem". it was several pages in.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for that; I'm working my way though those steps now. I believe I should be rooted well enough soon.
I do not know, however, how I'm suppose to install CWM, or "4. Use cwm to restore the stock.zip (kernel)." and "7. Apply CWM. Wipe data." to remove voodoo.
Also after running the one click root in that thread it ends with several errors and I do not see superuser as an app on my phone, making me assume it didn't work.

My phone can not use the Rom Manage

Hello. Please help me. my phone can not use the rom manage. I have used one once, but can not be used again. when I turn on the program, still connected 3g/wifi but nothing more happened at all. I have copied the program into the correct directory. My phone rooted.This phenomenon occurs after I Flast 2.1
What doesnt work? Does it not install? Why are you copying the app at all? Why not install from Market?
I installed the application from Market but I can not use the rom manage.
I don't know!
duongthanhcong said:
I installed the application from Market but I can not use the rom manage.
I don't know!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rom Manager*
You have to be rooted to use it.
You can't expect people to help you if you don't tell them the problem.
So its installed, did you flash the clockworkmod? Should be the top most option.
dcontrol said:
You can't expect people to help you if you don't tell them the problem.
So its installed, did you flash the clockworkmod? Should be the top most option.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Also, did you download it from the market, or did you steal the pro version from online? I am asking because you said "I copied it to the right directory"
Maybe I understand his/her problem. Rooted, installed RM but cannot install Clockwork?
Few options here, search for the standalone update.zip with Clockwork and do it that way OR wait a few hours and try again.
The 1st choice I had to do once because RM wasn't liking my phone and the 2nd choice sometimes the server is down.
First, my phone t959 rom UVJI6 normal. Then my rom to version 2.2 T959UVJFD. I do not feel satisfied so I returned to the Odin 2.1.
My phone has a normal root and fix lag.
but then, I could not manage to use the rom again.
Sorry for my english level is limited. I'm from Vietnam
blizzard1017 said:
Maybe I understand his/her problem. Rooted, installed RM but cannot install Clockwork?
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. this is my problem. How do I do now?
Thanks!
If youre trying to flash another rom you need to disable the lagfix first.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
My assumption is you have OCLF, try removing it then giving it a go.
Google a clockwork update zip that is pushable with ODIN, I found one the other day. I MAY have it still but I am not sure and I honestly have no clue where I found it, wasn't xda I am about 90% sure. It is not really a solid fix but will get you to where you have CWM. Rom Manager will not recognize you have it installed but when you go to enter recovery mode it will enter into CWM.
Did you by chance also flash a custom kernal? When I tested out a few I noticed my phone did the same thing, my knowledge currently doesn't expand far enough to know if they can even be related though. I am still learning a lot myself.
blizzard1017 said:
My assumption is you have OCLF, try removing it then giving it a go.
Google a clockwork update zip that is pushable with ODIN, I found one the other day. I MAY have it still but I am not sure and I honestly have no clue where I found it, wasn't xda I am about 90% sure. It is not really a solid fix but will get you to where you have CWM. Rom Manager will not recognize you have it installed but when you go to enter recovery mode it will enter into CWM.
Did you by chance also flash a custom kernal? When I tested out a few I noticed my phone did the same thing, my knowledge currently doesn't expand far enough to know if they can even be related though. I am still learning a lot myself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
(See attachment)
Masterâ„¢ said:
(See attachment)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Always living up to your name...
I had mine fixed up through some trial and error hopefully this gets the OP in the right direction.

question update

Hey
I just got a update OTA however if I check i still have 2.1 JI6 Eclair
I dont kno what that update was but i kno alot of people have Froyo
I want to flash a rom .. but do i need froyo to use bionix v by team whiskey?
since i have eclair i have to use the bionix for 2.1 or update to Froyo right??
How would I update to Froyo.
No, it's actually better that you don't have stock Froyo on you, you can flash any 2.2 ROM straight from Eclair.
which kernel should i get with it?
ka7 with voodoo..
i want the voodoo and rom to optimize productivity
Go with [ROM] Trigger, I've been on it for a few weeks now and by far the most stable and reliable ROM I have tried, the latest is blazing fast + I added Over Stock to it and now my phone wants to fly off my hands.
Download RomManager from market and flash your recovery, you'll see the option.
Then flash the rom thru recovery and you are a happy camper.
Oh, yes, it comes with Voodoo as you wished.
Sorry, forgot the link:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=921453
thanks bro
..
well i have titanium backup set with everything backedup
but if i use trigger applying those setting would be dumb?
sry newb , ive been tryin to research for awhile
nm dumb question i think
i will have it and have my settings
You don't want to load any setting that you backed up from a different ROM, it will conflict the new one. When you flash, use these procedures to grant you a clean flash:
Download ...........zip and place on your sdcard
Boot into recovery and Wipe Data/Factory Reset Before You Move On
Flash .................zip
While still in recovery: Wipe Cache Partition, and inside the advanced menu: Wipe Dalvik Cache and Fix Permissions - Do Not Factory Reset Again
Reboot
After about 10 minutes, you should reboot again.
Done!
waht about my apps?
zumbahlenm said:
waht about my apps?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You just restore those from TB after re-boot. Make sure you only restore user apps though.
Dev. Do not recommend restoring apps on their roms since it might bring the bugs to you
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA Premium App
Just re-download them, that way it is sure they will work propperly.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA Premium App
mcmicham said:
You just restore those from TB after re-boot. Make sure you only restore user apps though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ahh ok i gatta do it over then or do i...cuz what i have saved is all user apps and system data..
just do all user apps?
well i have a decent amount...would be a pain lol ughh
all the youtube videos do it lol lol
zumbahlenm said:
ahh ok i gatta do it over then or do i...cuz what i have saved is all user apps and system data..
just do all user apps?
well i have a decent amount...would be a pain lol ughh
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You just make a batch in TB. So in TB just go menu>settings>batch> then RUN the batch the says "Backup all user apps". Devs only recommend you don't restore system data. User apps or third party apps are ok, atleast I do everytime.
mcmicham said:
You just make a batch in TB. So in TB just go menu>settings>batch> then RUN the batch the says "Backup all user apps". Devs only recommend you don't restore system data. User apps or third party apps are ok, atleast I do everytime.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair enough, I always try to stay clean and out of trouble....
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA Premium App
i suck at this lol
im in rom manager installed clockwork and hit reboot in recoery..it just sits there
even tried install rom from sdcard..i clicked ok when it ask to restart in recovery..nothin
i power off use volume and power to put into recovery and theres only 4 option to restart or delete wtffffff ugh lol
zumbahlenm said:
i suck at this lol
im in rom manager installed clockwork and hit reboot in recoery..it just sits there
even tried install rom from sdcard..i clicked ok when it ask to restart in recovery..nothin
i power off use volume and power to put into recovery and theres only 4 option to restart or delete wtffffff ugh lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do the option "re-install packages", if it brings you back to recovery after that, hit it again and it will take you to CWM.
If non of the above works, consider this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=833423
ya i duno super irratating
says cant open sdcard update zip
no such file or directroy
installation aborted..
i have the rom on sd card?
You might be already, but the NOOB guide an awsome thing to follow when rooting and flashing. Its got all the step by steps for first timers! I used it religously the first time. haha It should stickied in this forum, not sure though.

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