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Being a newbie and only having an XDA1 I keep hearing the words GPRS and GSM banded about. Can someone plse tell me the differences between the two>???
Thanks john
GPRS is short for General Packet Radio Service, a standard for wireless communications which runs at speeds up to 115 kilobits per second,
GSM (Global System for Mobile Communications) 9.6 kilobits. so 11 times slower
GSM is mostly used for voice calls and SMS
GPRS for DATA-transfer ie MMS,surfing,email,...
GSM is usually charged by time ie minutes/second
GPRS by amount of data ie KiloBytes,Megabytes
You can surf or check email with GSM but then you'll have to use your GSM as a modem with a dial-in connection.
That's what i think, maybe I'm wrong but I'm sure the experts will correct me.
M4io said:
GPRS is short for General Packet Radio Service, a standard for wireless communications which runs at speeds up to 115 kilobits per second,
GSM (Global System for Mobile Communications) 9.6 kilobits. so 11 times slower
GSM is mostly used for voice calls and SMS
GPRS for DATA-transfer ie MMS,surfing,email,...
GSM is usually charged by time ie minutes/second
GPRS by amount of data ie KiloBytes,Megabytes
You can surf or check email with GSM but then you'll have to use your GSM as a modem with a dial-in connection.
That's what i think, maybe I'm wrong but I'm sure the experts will correct me.
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Click to collapse
You are right.
GPRS is a data transfer protocol which runs OVER the GSM network. GPRS is a digital based protocol which is why high speeds can be achieved compared to GSM.
GPRS & GSM
Yep. generally speaking.........
Both can be used to surf the net (WWW) but generally GPRS is cheaper and faster.
GSM will dial up a server for your email and surfing. Your calls over GSM to a server generally cost 10 pence per minute, although it can be free depending on your personal tariff with your network (O2, Orange, Vodaphone, T Mobile, 3....)
GPRS is connected by your service provider, and you pay for what you download, by the KB, prices range fron £1 a megabyte to £7 depending on the supplier.
Coverage varies from mobile to mobile and area to area and of course network to network, for both GPRS & GSM.
Hi
For the networks, supporting GPRS meant a relatively simple firmware update to all but the oldest base stations. GPRS is pretty crude, if offers higher data rates at the expense of network capacity and makes poor use of the available spectrum (compared to W-CDMA G3 modulation schemes).
A basestation will have available to it a number of standard frequencies for GSM comms, say 50 channels, these channels will be different to the channels used on the neighboring base stations.
Each of these channels is split up into 8 time slots. In a GSM config, a mobile gets 1 timeslot, so 8 calls can take place 'at the same time' on the same channel. The base station and mobiles decide who is gonna transmit and when. This happens so fast that as far as the user is concerned they have a comms channel to themselves. This is TDMA Time Domain, Multiple Access.
Interestingly the time slots are so narrow that if you have phone A on located 20KM from the base station on timeslot 8, and phone B next to the base station on timeslot 2, then phone A will transmit its data before phone B, with the data arriving at the base station in correct time-slot order!
Mobile networks also support time-slot and channel hopping to get around network interference problems, and more importantly to counteract the issues of dopler shift when the mobile is moving at speed.
GPRS works simply by making more of these timeslots available to a single mobile. The fact that data is bursty means that the base station can hand out timeslots fairly efficiently. The 2 current systems for GPRS are class 8 and class 10
Class 8 offers 4 download timeslots and 1 upload timeslot
Class 10 offers 3 download timeslot and 2 upload timeslots
Each slot offers from 9.6K to 21.4K depending on network configuration (basically thats the width the RF channel, perhaps also the no of slots that the channel is split into - cant remember). In the UK I beleieve that each timeslot runs at 14.4K. You will however not see that since some of it is used for error correction.
O2 defaults to class 10. I dont know whether this is locked at the network level and I never tried changing it.
Class 10 will hence give max 43.2K down / 28800 up and
class 8 is 57.6K down, 14.4K up
You can knock 20% of those figures for error correction duties.
It would be possible for GPRS to run in 7/1 mode to give 7x14K4 = 100.8K down / 14.4K up. I dont think any networks or devices support such a configuration though!
Its been a while since I worked in this field so this info may be out of date by now. GPRS is not that much faster than HSCSD (high speed circuit switched data), but its much more efficient in its use of the bandwidth.
Ever been up a mountain miles from nowhere, had a screen full of signal bars but never managed to make a call?? Its a limitation of GSM (or rather the config of the network). A phone must be able to respond within the correct timeslot, if the phone is too far away then it can miss its slot altogether, hence full bars, but no calling! In the UK, the network setup means that the limit is around 25KM, in australia, they have extended this to around 100KM in rural locations.
Roll on EDGE - 2.5G++ its a new modulation scheme for GSM that makes *much much* better use of the spectrum. Should give us 256K on the move - i.e it will be pushing into 3G terratory bandwidth wise. Trouble is, GPRS was a firmware update for most base stations, EDGE is gonna require hardware. I would not be surprised though if we did not see networks giving up on taking 3G coverage beyond 70-80% of population, and rely on EDGE/GPRS to cover the dregs.
Nigel
Is there a way I can still get my GSM calls when I am connected to GPRS ?
As a matter of fact I do when the GPRS is Idle. But when there is some data transfer happening and a call comes in, It goes off to my voice mail !!!
Isn't it supposed to put the GPRS on hold and take the call ?
Any settings or any ideas ?
regards,
Arun
Hello everybody!
I know this looks like it belongs in the networking forum, but I'd like an answer specific to the Jamin.
The problem is this:
If I am downloading a page with IE it blocks incoming calls. If the GPRS connection is active but no data is transferring calls go through.
I found an old thread on this and it seems to be a phone specific problem (some models do this and others don't).
So am I missing something?
Is this a ROM / hardware thing, or is there a setting some ware, or maybe this is dependent on the cellular provider?
Does anyone else here experience this? Please let me know and if my question is stupid don't hesitate to point it out.
P.S. I am using latest official i-mate ROM 2.13.9.23 WWE and 1_02.20.21 radio.
Sounds quite strange, if I remember well and from experience in low-coverage areas the GPRS signal is dropped first if calls are made on the handset and there is not enough bandwith for both. But I am sure we find a GSM network expert here that can enlighten us. Interesting question.
Hi,
I have aone xda Atom.
Have the same problem.
For example media player streaming internet radio , phone calls don´t came through. Or 1 in 10 came through.
If I´m connect without streaming or downloading then the call came through
Regards
Josef
As far as i remember you can't recieve any calls exactly when downloading. When GPRS is simply on it's ok. Don't really remember why...
As far as i remember you can't recieve any calls exactly when downloading. When GPRS is simply on it's ok. Don't really remember why...
The phone and GPRS are mutually exclusive.
We have a GPRS application that needs the connection to be alive as much as possible to receive incoming data. Phone calls get in the way of this, which is why I know the problem exists.
I do not have a validated reason for the problem (I believe they use the same transmission streams over the network, which means the network needs to know whether it is transmitting data or voice. Data needs to be reliable, with no dropped packets, while voice needs to be quick, with dropped packets being ignored, or something similar anyway).
Graham.
Hi,
Will like to add. Have one Universal too.
With the Universal if I ´m downloading or listen internet radio, when a call cames the downloading is suspend. Allways.
Regards
JoseF
Seems like it depends on service provider not on the device... I remembere the time when GPRS have just been started on NW Megafone - GPRS traffic lived like poor homie with the voice transmissions so when many peoples speaks - gprs is dead. Nowdays we got edge and gprs works fine. But still we got subj
Well, at least now I know it's not a matter of settings or ROM version.
Still not sure if it's the phone or the provider, but since I don't fell like switching either of them (specially the phone ) I guess I'll have to live with it.
Just to clarify: I don't expect simultaneous voice and data, but it would have been nice if incoming calls killed GPRS to get through even if I am in the middle of a download.
P.S.
Thanks every one for your prompt responses!
Not much help, but this is among the reasons I use a multicard - maybe you want to consider it. A multicard is two SIM cards with the same number, but one card is activated for GPRS/UMTS and SMS, and the other one for voice traffic and SMS. Especially with a flat data rate, GPRS is always on, and one does not have to use the Prophet as a phone all day. It means you have to carry two phones, but for a heavy user working with these tools all day it makes perfect sense. Just my five cents...
Just to clarify: I don't expect simultaneous voice and data, but it would have been nice if incoming calls killed GPRS to get through even if I am in the middle of a download.
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Click to collapse
Hm... Let me think... I remember there was such a nice setting on my Panasonic GD87, called "Wait for incoming call" or smt like this. Nice feature. Gives the ability of cellular phone disconnect from gprs and recive incoming call. Seems like I'll be missing it
Are there any news on this?
I have the same problem, that incoming calls are blocked when using GPRS.
Hi yoda_143.
I recently got to do some testing at work with phones from different manufacturers (MIO, HP, ASUS) and my SIM.
The conclusion: It is not the Jamin!
On all phones incoming call was blocked while data was transferred.
I haven't had the chance to test it with different providers, but I suspect this will not make a difference.
It would be nice though if there was a way to give voice calls priority even if it meant starting the download over from the beginning after the call ends.
Guys this might help
http://www.gsmworld.com/technology/gprs/class.shtml
Class A, Class B & Class C?
The class indicates the mobile phone capabilities.
Class A
Class A mobile phones can be connected to both GPRS and GSM services simultaneously.
Class B
Class B mobile phones can be attached to both GPRS and GSM services, using one service at a time. Class B enables making or receiving a voice call, or sending/receiving an SMS during a GPRS connection. During voice calls or SMS, GPRS services are suspended and then resumed automatically after the call or SMS session has ended.
Class C
Class C mobile phones are attached to either GPRS or GSM voice service. You need to switch manually between services.
BUT; even my Wizard claims that it's Class B, does the same thing and blocks incoming calls while downloading. So what does it mean?? Maybe a network provider issue :?:
From my use of XDA2i it appeared that phone can transfer GPRS data or phone call not both at the same time.
If you want both then you will need 3G/UMST
The Universal will happily allow phone calls whilst surfing over a 3G connection. Even on Universal you lose the ability for data&phone if you are using GPRS.
I see but it says everywhere that Class B phones has to stop data transfer and accept incoming calls. My old Sonyericsson T630 was doing the job! BTW my network provider claims in their website FAQ like this..
Q- During download with GPRS, if an incoming call occurs, do my GPRS connection stops?
A- During download with GPRS, if an incoming call occurs, you can easily accept the call. During call, your data transfer suspends and after call ends, goes on where it was suspended.
EDIT: I talked with network operator today and they changed their web site saying after a few tests that "u can't suspend and resume GPRS data flow, while data flow incoming calls are blocked!!"
While Wizard is Class B and the operator uses NOMII , all architectural must be wrong.
Really WEIRD, isn't it?
This article is also interesting (don't look "symbian" thing, it is a general article about GPRS/NOM)
http://www.symbian.com/symbianos/standards/symbianongprs.html
Network operation mode and phone classes
The Network Operation Mode, or NOM, is responsible for the capabilities of a GPRS network, while the class indicates the mobile phone capabilities. On NOM 1 networks, mobile phones with the right capabilities can have simultaneous circuit- and packet-switched connections. On NOM 2 networks, mobile phones can remain attached to the GPRS networks when in a voice call but they can't transmit data at the same time. On NOM 3 networks, mobile phones can either establish a packet-switched data connection or a circuit-switched voice one but they need to disconnect from one to establish another.
Class A phones can make full use of NOM 1 networks: they can use circuit-switched voice and GPRS data services at the same time. Class B phones can register circuit-switched voice and packet-switched data services at the same time but may only use one at a time. Should the user receive a call while on the internet, they can take the call and GPRS service will be suspended, resuming once the voice call is ended. Resuming GPRS service is much faster than re-establishing a data call. Class C phones can only register for packet-switched data or for circuit-switched voice services; if the user chooses GPRS, then they will be totally unavailable for GSM calls and reciprocally.
End-users will initially have access to Class B mobile phones, which are able to make and receive calls while simultaneously being registered with GPRS services - GPRS services will automatically be suspended and resumed at the end of the call. Class B phones only support one active service at a time - GSM (voice, fax or data) or GPRS (data) - though both services can be registered with the network and the phone can switch automatically back and forth. However, should the user roam to a network area that is NOM III, their Class B phone will effectively be working as a Class C phone.
New applications designed to run in an online environment will be developed to take advantage of GPRS and 3G networks. The user may well experience a 'blurring' of applications whereby they won't need to switch task nearly at all.
my universal (t-mobile) on 3g in australia is quite fine i tested the situation you guys are talking about and itl mmove he program to background and take the call (both do run simultaniously (internet might slow down alittle by about 3 Kb/s so hope this helps someone... byebye (GREAAT WEBSITE!)
Hi, anyone tried connecting to 3G in a non 3G coverage area and the connection automatically switch itself to GPRS instead of EDGE, even if EDGE is available in that area? I wanted to connect my device to EDGE if 3G is not available and not to GPRS. Pls advice... Cheers!
Hey,
The way mobile networks and handsets work is the phone will always choose the highest available connection speed possible and the network based on capacity and available resource will assign the mobile what it can. That's why a phone will always look for a 3G network before a GSM one. When the phone initiates a packet connection to the network it includes a message which tells the network it's capability such as EDGE supported, what class of GPRS capability (4 slots down / 2 up etc...) and then the network based on this message assigns the phone a resource. Most networks nowadays have enough resource to give you a fairly good connection. For example if you support EDGE you will be given EDGE assignment (8QPSK instead of 4GMSK) as the ways the data is scheduled in the network is no different between GPRS and EDGE only the connection between the handset and network is faster.
What actually happens when you change from 3G to GPRS/EDGE is you drop the connection in 3G (move out of coverage) and based on the neighbouring channel list you received off the 3G cell you look for the most suitable GSM cell. Now this cell may or may not support EDGE but in either case the handset will PRACH on the cell, the cell with then ask the handset to authenticate and in this message you send your handset capability and also information about the last RNC/PCU (in this case the one connected to the 3G cell) you were on. The new PCU then signals with your old one and re-routes the data in the backbone of the network to you on your new cell. There will be data loss but the higher layers (application) should ask for re-tries for the missing data if it's TCP data.
In summary your connection priority (if the network supports all these technologies) is: HSDPA > UMTS (3G) > EDGE > GPRS > HSCSD > CSD
Hopefully this answers you question and adds a bit of extra info...
EDIT:
P.S. Not many networks support EDGE at present but most have plans to support it in the next 12-24 months.
Gav
How do you know you are on GPRS and not EDGE??
Hi Eeter,
I don't think there is any indication on the device You could tell my doing a speed test. If you are on a GSM network where you know EDGE is used then more than likely you will be using it instead of GPRS.
Gav.
There is an easy way:
1. Install the fieldtest utility
2. Go into a data session ( streaming radio ....BBC or others )
3. Check the Fiedtest EGPRS page and look for the downling coding
4. If it shows a CS1 or CS2 it is GPRS. If it shows MCS5 etc.. It is EDGE
Checking speed only is misleading. EDGE can be slow sometimes and the speed depends not only on the air interface but on the core internet side too
Hi eeter,
Yeah I agree that a speed test could be miss-leading.
Checking if you are using a MCS instead of CS will say for sure you have an EGPRS connection.
Gav.
Hi All,
As UK Vodafone CS were no help what so ever...I thought I would ask the experts.
I recently updated my phone via Sony Update software to
R3AA013
At home all seemed fine I created a new wap and connection and setup email etc and on the 'H' network all was fine.
Unfortunately at work I have a weak signal and only ever get G. Problem is now the phone seems to be unable to connect to this, just seems to cycle through attempts then gives up.
Is it best to reapply the firmware update and start again or are there any settings I can check first?
As I say in the HSDPA signal is seems to work fine...
Thanks in advance!
Paul.
Personally i have only got a 3G signal in Crystal Palace but no where else - i sometimes see H but that is always a very low signal and sometimes G with a high signal - dont know which is better - and yea im not to sure about G working either - G isnt 3G though 3G=3G but yea it would seem vodafone suck and their CS is more than awful and rubbish
comeradealexi said:
Personally i have only got a 3G signal in Crystal Palace but no where else - i sometimes see H but that is always a very low signal and sometimes G with a high signal - dont know which is better - and yea im not to sure about G working either - G isnt 3G though 3G=3G but yea it would seem vodafone suck and their CS is more than awful and rubbish
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I very rarely see the 3G symbol too. I normally get H and G. I just walked out the office and the G went to H and I could get pages again. Does anyone know what is going on?
try next time u r at work going into "settings", "connections", "advanced", "select network" - and switch settings there from My ISP to WEB - then try connecting again.
I had the same problem for a while and this helped. However, occasionally I have to switch around when I m in an "H" signal area. Dont know why that is but I guess its not the only weird thing about this phone
Hi Amanox,
Thanks...I tried that work around, it shows the solid G and two dialled connections but when you try and access a page on IE or Opera... both say they can't locate remote server.
It's really frustrating.
Regards,
Paul.
When is shows GPRS (G), it may be that the Vodafone cell-sites (transmitter pylons) transmitter cards do not have the capacity to allow data over that frequency, whereas the 3G/3.5G (HSDPA) transmitter cards have ample bandwidth?
Just a sort of educated guess. Either that or something is screwed up in your account settings at Voda's end not allowing it.
I don't have this problem at all ...I get 3G or HSDPA most of the time in London -GPRS is the fall-back I think, when neither of the faster options is available.
What puzzled me, and I thought it might just have something to do with your issue, is that you mention manually setting up networks:-
"created a new wap and connection and setup email etc"
I do of course have tp set up Email, but have never had to set up wap or anything else ...when I've hard reset (upgrading ROMs etc -am now on R3A too) I have only ever had to enter my SIM / PIN code and that's it -I'm connected to 3G (or H or G depending on what's available)
Nothing set manually at all -other than email account (and WIFI/bluetooth connections)
My guess is that you have chosen the wrong APN. As I'm from Germany I do not know the correct setup for Internet access in the UK, but Vodafone Germany differs between WAP and WEB access as well. WAP access is really limited to a special bunch of sites, so maybe your problems are related to an incorrect setup of the APN.
Jcsxda, sorry to puzzle you. I created a Manual internet profile and a Wap connection profile as I can't edit the My Isp one the phone came configured with. I thought by creating it manually it might fix the problem. I used a Vodafone configuration guide for the SONY X1 so I must have the right APN's etc.
Foo you mentioned the APN might be wrong if that was true I would assume I would not see any connections. When I tap on connectivity info box I see a Voda INT (GPRS, 3G) and a contract WAP (GPRS, 3G) both with a timer counting up. I have set that programs that use the internet use the standard My ISP, then for programs that use a private network I have told it to use the manual connection which I setup using the UK Vodafone configuration guide.
Oh and I re-installed the firmware last night, but still have the same problem.
G, 3G and HSPDA are pretty much the same thing in terms of connecting. It's just the speeds they run at.
GPRS is around 56 kbit/s
3G (UMTS) is around 384 kbit/s
HSPDA on Vodafone UK is up to 7.2 mbit/s (although a lot of cells are at 3.6 and some are at 1.8)
Vodafone Greece have just released HSPA+ with speeds of 21.6 mbit/s.
In the UK most 3G cells have been upgraded to support HSPDA, so if your phone supports HSPDA (the X1) then you will find it rare to come across the 3G symbol.
I switch between using both the WAP and the INTERNET apns (images better on WAP, however more apps run on INTERNET), and switch between G and H through the house and never have a problem.
I would suggest making sure that the settings are 100% correct.
The INTERNET apn is the easiest as it doesn't need any proxy settings.
The apn is internet and the username and password are both web
artesea said:
G, 3G and HSPDA are pretty much the same thing in terms of connecting. It's just the speeds they run at.
GPRS is around 56 kbit/s
3G (UMTS) is around 384 kbit/s
HSPDA on Vodafone UK is up to 7.2 mbit/s (although a lot of cells are at 3.6 and some are at 1.8)
Vodafone Greece have just released HSPA+ with speeds of 21.6 mbit/s.
In the UK most 3G cells have been upgraded to support HSPDA, so if your phone supports HSPDA (the X1) then you will find it rare to come across the 3G symbol.
I switch between using both the WAP and the INTERNET apns (images better on WAP, however more apps run on INTERNET), and switch between G and H through the house and never have a problem.
I would suggest making sure that the settings are 100% correct.
The INTERNET apn is the easiest as it doesn't need any proxy settings.
The apn is internet and the username and password are both web
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Click to collapse
Hi Artesea,
Please correct me if I am wrong but if I had the APN's details wrong wouldn't I be unable to surf in H areas? Which I can. It's only when just the G is displayed I can't get any access. The manual connection I created I have not added anything other than.
internet
web
web
wap.vodafone.co.uk
wap
wap
The crazy thing is it was all happy before I installed the firmware update..although the connection has always been weak I did get a connection at work.
Maybe I should just be happy I can still get phone calls and spend less time looking at my email...
The wap apn sometimes need (and therefore it is advisable to have) some extra proxy details.
You should have ticked "This network connects to the Internet" and "This network uses a proxy server to connect to the Internet" with "212.183.137.12" as the Proxy server.
I've been having internet troubles since i got my Hero a few weeks ago.
It seems to jump between '3G' and 'H' when I use any applications using the internet. This means that pages often fail to load/download, or appear slower than 2G connection speeds.
I think this is because I'm in an area which can just about receive HDSPA speeds sometimes, but not consistently, so I was wondering if there's any way to set the internet to stay at 3G and not attempt to connect to HDSPA? When I'm in areas where the best speed possible in 3G, the internet is infinitely faster than when it's jumping from 3G to H and back.
Thank You!
I'm not sure on the phone itself but from a network perspective you would need to ask you phone provider to change your QOS on the HLR (network control and provisioning) to a non HSDPA entry, eg t-mobile uk QOS 1201 = HSDPA 3.6
it doesn't work that way (the hlr qos profile). you can only set the maximum speed there, not the RAN technology which is used. i don't think there is anything you can do, the phone attaches to the best server (=cell with strongest signal), and if that cell supports hsdpa it is used for data transfer. as hsd(p)a is only an "addon" for umts i don't think that your connection would be better on the same cell, even if you were able to force umts usage. bad radio reception is bad radio reception... it is not uncommon that a stable EDGE connection works better than a weak umts/hspa signal, have you tried switching to 2g?
kendong2 said:
it doesn't work that way (the hlr qos profile). you can only set the maximum speed there, not the RAN technology which is used. i don't think there is anything you can do, the phone attaches to the best server (=cell with strongest signal), and if that cell supports hsdpa it is used for data transfer. as hsd(p)a is only an "addon" for umts i don't think that your connection would be better on the same cell, even if you were able to force umts usage. bad radio reception is bad radio reception... it is not uncommon that a stable EDGE connection works better than a weak umts/hspa signal, have you tried switching to 2g?
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of course you can, thousands of sims on networks are unable to use hsdpa because of a low qos, on t-mobile's uk system if you do not provision the web and walk plus SOC on the account the service order does not go through and they are unable to use HSDPA. I dont have a HSDPA qos and I dont get a H but if I use the sim that came with it I do.. best thing to do is give the networks tech support a ring with some times and locations and ask if they can look at what ever reporting system they use and look at network statistics at the time. Best to look at the sgsn;s and look at the stats at that point.
It doesnt matter if the cell supports hsdpa, hsdpa on the cell itself is only a capability to go back through to the msc. a footprint on a 3g cell will keep the closest strongest users when it hits max capacity, if you are on the outskirts you ill lose out.
the more you complain to the provider the qucicker they add some higher bandwidth lines to th local exchange or hub..
Might simply be a congested site, if so it should report itself...
naughty naughty trx
ahem... hspa is RAN (as in Radio Access Network) technology. it is applied to the communication between the handset and the node b, not anything behind the node b (not sure whether the rnc needs to be aware of it, but that's it, no msc involved). i am not sure whether the simcard needs to be hspa capable, but i have never heard of it. and i do provision sim cards for a living...
kendong2 said:
ahem... hspa is RAN (as in Radio Access Network) technology. it is applied to the communication between the handset and the node b, not anything behind the node b (not sure whether the rnc needs to be aware of it, but that's it, no msc involved). i am not sure whether the simcard needs to be hspa capable, but i have never heard of it. and i do provision sim cards for a living...
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Click to collapse
You are rightt hsdpa as a technology does get implemented between the mast (node b) and the handset.. what is added between the RNC and the node b is the LUB this is an added control mechanism, this kinda makes sure no data is loss occurs when the node b's buffers are overflowed! this is not a fool proof system, RNC? it could be a SRNC controller,, anyway you are right in what you say but as i have worked within this area i do know that when i was saying "SIMS" I didnt mean the actual sim itself i was referring to sims with old HLR profiles that cant access hsdpa! most pay as you go sims cant on tmob uk this stops them going £1 a day unlimited handset internet and hammering the sim in a dongle!! Im a big fan of provisioning btw! geeky as it sounds the complexity of mass provisioning failures interests me!