Related
http://androidspin.com/2010/08/13/oracle-hits-google-with-patent-and-copyright-infringement-lawsuit/
Could this put halt the development of android? Could this permanently damage android? What will android be without java running it?
Ace42;7667881
Could this put halt the development of android? Could this permanently damage android? What will android be without java running it?[/QUOTE said:
That is just legal speak for, "WE WANT MONEY! GIVE US MONEY!"
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So what?! Sun has been milking Microsoft to the tune of $1 million *a day* about 10 years ago for some java violation.
I think the platform is important enough for Google to settle/pay up. After all, they need more mobile devices with the internet access to generate more ad revenue.
stangri said:
So what?! Sun has been milking Microsoft to the tune of $1 million *a day* about 10 years ago for some java violation.
I think the platform is important enough for Google to settle/pay up. After all, they need more mobile devices with the internet access to generate more ad revenue.
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Yes but Microsoft as part of their settlement stopped development of their JVM completely. That's why you need to install java on new PC's before running java programs. If this goes the same way as the Microsoft settlement; then I would assume it would put an end to JVM core that makes android work.
That said, I belive Google will find a way through this.
-KAF
Sent from my Rooted T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App running CR_Mod_1.35.531_OTA
GeekBrat said:
Yes but Microsoft as part of their settlement stopped development of their JVM completely. That's why you need to install java on new PC's before running java programs. If this goes the same way as the Microsoft settlement; then I would assume it would put an end to JVM core that makes android work.
That said, I belive Google will find a way through this.
-KAF
Sent from my Rooted T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App running CR_Mod_1.35.531_OTA
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Java is a vital part to android, if google has to remove it then it will threaten the OS pretty badly. I'm wondering if they waited this long since android is more popular now.
they obviously wanted to see how android did before they did anything about it, and when oracle acquired Sun they decided to say something to google before it got out of hand. android has just surpassed iphone in market share so i would think google would just pay up and maybe even buy some large chunk of sun/java/oracle, if they decide not to pay up then yes we are gonna be hurting real soon for android devices and frankly i don't think i can go back to a winmo device and i will NEVER put in iphone in my pocket as my daily phone. (and then there's symbian but that's a joke anyways)
tubaking182 said:
... i don't think i can go back to a winmo device and i will NEVER put in iphone in my pocket as my daily phone. (and then there's symbian but that's a joke anyways)
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What about meego? (just curious).
Sent from my Rooted T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App running CR_Mod_1.35.531_OTA
Lets get is strait. Oracle(Sun at that time) open sourced Java runtime environment under GPL 2.0. But with one condition - they promised to sue anyone who will release incompatible version of Java runtime over patent infringements - while promised not to go after those who comply with Suns rules. Sun also reserved and kept full copyright over the code. So anyone (good example is Blackberry/RIM) who want to extend JRE and/or do not wish to release their code/modifications under GPL have to pay royalties to Sun (now Oracle).
Basic definition of open source - it is a freedom to modify source code and distribute modified software free of royalties or any other type of payments. Sun effectively forbidden any modifications of Java using patent threats. Even before this story started, GPL v.3 already addressed an issue (if someone release software under GPL 3 they are giving up patents rights). But the problem that Java is under GPL 2.
Here comes the Google. Google wanted to move into mobile market, but they did not like to pay any royalties. So they come with Dalvik, a Java VM that was written from scratch. Google also took Java libraries from Apache Harmony project. And they come up with their own java bytecode/compiled file format. So they haven't used a single line of code that was written by Sun, but their VM fully support Java syntax (but not .jar files!) plus many standard Java classes. And they don't owe anything to Oracle. Plus from developer point of view porting over most of Java projects relatively simple task. Worst of all for Oracle, Google released Dalvik under non copyleft license, so basically anyone could use it for any purpose - including handset manufacturers who do not wish to open source their code.
Now lets take a look at a bigger picture. There are more then a billion mobile phones were sold last year. Most of them of them do run Java plus most of them were sold on so called emerging markets. So many are relatively cheap handsets and price is an issue. And we are talking about billions $, dozens of billions $ over years to come revenue stream toward Oracle. Plus there are set top boxes etc. And here come absolutely free Dalvik and Apache Harmony. Harmony, another Java VM similar to Dalvik have it own issues: it do use standard .jar file container, some parts of it covered by Oracle's patents. Apache also participating in Java Community Process, and restricted by compatibility requirements set by Oracle. Process itself is under control of an Oracle, for example Oracle have exclusive veto right. And here come Davlik. Dalvik is absolutely free, don't use any patented parts(.jar and/or java bytecode) etc and so on. And legally clean. Sure Oracle don't like it. But what can they do?
FUD. That is Oracle's only option to postpone Dalvik adoption by cell phone makers. Oracle could not attack fundamentals of Dalvik - Java syntax not patented plus Oracle have absolutely no way to influence what libraries would be implemented by Google. So it sue Google over 7 patents, some attack decoding algorithms of VM (could easily be rewritten, maximum damage new algorithms would be slower then current). Some attack Dalvik compiled code format(.dex files). That is more serious, but maximum damage again won't be mortal for Dalvik or Android - worst case scenario Android 3.0 would not be able to execute .apk that were compiled for Android 1.5-2.2. But I'm sure Google will find a way to update apk that were already uploaded to Market without developers requiring to upload new version themselves. And a last, and very least attack is on Android SDK. That is not even worse discussing.
In my opinion, most likely scenario - Google will win the case. Worst possible outcome - Google would be fined, and will have to rewrite some portions of Dalvik plus make new versions incompatible with currently fielded .dex file structure. But one way or another court would take years, and Oracle would make everything humanly(corporatively) possible to prolong the process. The longer hardware manufacturers are in doubt about fielding Dalvik - the more profit Oracle would make from royalties.
drTestPilot said:
Lets get is strait. Oracle(Sun at that time) open sourced Java runtime environment under GPL 2.0. But with one condition - they promised to sue anyone who will release incompatible version of Java runtime over patent infringements - while promised not to go after those who comply with Suns rules. Sun also reserved and kept full copyright over the code. So anyone (good example is Blackberry/RIM) who want to extend JRE and/or do not wish to release their code/modifications under GPL have to pay royalties to Sun (now Oracle).
Basic definition of open source - it is a freedom to modify source code and distribute modified software free of royalties or any other type of payments. Sun effectively forbidden any modifications of Java using patent threats. Even before this story started, GPL v.3 already addressed an issue (if someone release software under GPL 3 they are giving up patents rights). But the problem that Java is under GPL 2.
Here comes the Google. Google wanted to move into mobile market, but they did not like to pay any royalties. So they come with Dalvik, a Java VM that was written from scratch. Google also took Java libraries from Apache Harmony project. And they come up with their own java bytecode/compiled file format. So they haven't used a single line of code that was written by Sun, but their VM fully support Java syntax (but not .jar files!) plus many standard Java classes. And they don't owe anything to Oracle. Plus from developer point of view porting over most of Java projects relatively simple task. Worst of all for Oracle, Google released Dalvik under non copyleft license, so basically anyone could use it for any purpose - including handset manufacturers who do not wish to open source their code.
Now lets take a look at a bigger picture. There are more then a billion mobile phones were sold last year. Most of them of them do run Java plus most of them were sold on so called emerging markets. So many are relatively cheap handsets and price is an issue. And we are talking about billions $, dozens of billions $ over years to come revenue stream toward Oracle. Plus there are set top boxes etc. And here come absolutely free Dalvik and Apache Harmony. Harmony, another Java VM similar to Dalvik have it own issues: it do use standard .jar file container, some parts of it covered by Oracle's patents. Apache also participating in Java Community Process, and restricted by compatibility requirements set by Oracle. Process itself is under control of an Oracle, for example Oracle have exclusive veto right. And here come Davlik. Dalvik is absolutely free, don't use any patented parts(.jar and/or java bytecode) etc and so on. And legally clean. Sure Oracle don't like it. But what can they do?
FUD. That is Oracle's only option to postpone Dalvik adoption by cell phone makers. Oracle could not attack fundamentals of Dalvik - Java syntax not patented plus Oracle have absolutely no way to influence what libraries would be implemented by Google. So it sue Google over 7 patents, some attack decoding algorithms of VM (could easily be rewritten, maximum damage new algorithms would be slower then current). Some attack Dalvik compiled code format(.dex files). That is more serious, but maximum damage again won't be mortal for Dalvik or Android - worst case scenario Android 3.0 would not be able to execute .apk that were compiled for Android 1.5-2.2. But I'm sure Google will find a way to update apk that were already uploaded to Market without developers requiring to upload new version themselves. And a last, and very least attack is on Android SDK. That is not even worse discussing.
In my opinion, most likely scenario - Google will win the case. Worst possible outcome - Google would be fined, and will have to rewrite some portions of Dalvik plus make new versions incompatible with currently fielded .dex file structure. But one way or another court would take years, and Oracle would make everything humanly(corporatively) possible to prolong the process. The longer hardware manufacturers are in doubt about fielding Dalvik - the more profit Oracle would make from royalties.
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Nicely said, i learned something new today.
drTestPilot said:
Legal mumbo jumbo...
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Great post by a relatively new member. Thanks
Edit: Now tell us how you really feel
so i was checking out the windows 8 requirements that have released and came across the whole arm 8 dvices being required to hve a secure boot that cannot be unlocked to block non windows oses and the pc aint much more open looks like its gonna be up to communities to do what we want on devices anymore.....damn microsoft taking lessons from apple or what this really jkind of bumms me out, it seems like at every turn big business is trying to stifle developement. it seems for every advancement that could stimulate innovative developement theres several things implemented to directly oppose those advances can we say one step forward two steps back.
ive been hearing all the hype of arm windows tablets just to hear this....is somebody afraid of what android or linux might do on a tablet running pc specs.....
X86 devices will be ok. Running sth other than Windows on any ARM device will become probmatic.
I'm more concerned what this means if we get a proper mingling of chips (at long fraking last) in the domain of netbooks and low cost desktop/nettop systems, then I am for W8 phones and tabs.
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk
Granted this will be a step backward but in the same respect, as usual, microsoft is late to the party. Everything I have read and heard through the grapevines are pointing to a Q1 2013 release of Win8 ARM tablets. By that time the A15 based beasties will be out running Android 4.x or possibly even Android 5.x. In essence all MS has accomplished is shooting themselves in the foot.
well i've got a alternate view of this. Sure ms is late i the app/phone/tablet market. But you still have to remember that they still have the largest piece of the market in the computer department. And if they could deliver a system similar to windows..well that will give them a big chunk of the market today. Due to a large userbase which know how to handle windows applications.
Even analystics has given out reports about this. That ios and android have reached their top. But what do i know ^^i'm just hoping for the best, and userfriendly applications.
Except the majority of closed source programs people use, will not get ported to Win8/ARM. Many of the cross platform open source ones already compile on Linux and/or *BSD's ARM targets.
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Darkseider said:
Granted this will be a step backward but in the same respect, as usual, microsoft is late to the party. Everything I have read and heard through the grapevines are pointing to a Q1 2013 release of Win8 ARM tablets. By that time the A15 based beasties will be out running Android 4.x or possibly even Android 5.x. In essence all MS has accomplished is shooting themselves in the foot.
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I seem to remember hearing the same thing about game consoles. People said Nintendo and Sony had a lock on the market and Microsoft was wasting time trying to break in with the XBox.
Hey Guys
The beta of blue stacks in now available. Now u can run Android app on windows Downloading on CP now. Will post later how it is
I would not install it, caused me to get bluescreens after reboot
I have just installed it, played angry bird space and it works fine for me.
1/2asleep said:
I have just installed it, played angry bird space and it works fine for me.
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On Windows 8?
I can't get BlueStacks to run in Windows 8 at all. Every time I run the installer I get a blue screen with a frown face saying that something went wrong and Windows needs to restart. I have been testing the private beta build on Windows 7 though and it is definitely fun and useful
After Few blue screen restarts it worked. Uninstalled it because it not what i expected to be. I cant run any app in full screen. I run in only a portion and i cant use gmail and angry birds because of some high performance driver issue. The alpha version before this was better.
At the moment, this is so bad
Thanks for the heads up! Going to try this.
I really wanted to try it on my Windows 8 netbook but the Thinstaller executable they gave me refused to install because my it claimed my graphics performance would be under the minimum recommended requirement. It was rather sad since the Alpha worked fine and even running the same version of Android they base their rootfs images off of (Android-x86) as a addition to my Linux dual-boot.
buggatti said:
After Few blue screen restarts it worked. Uninstalled it because it not what i expected to be. I cant run any app in full screen. I run in only a portion and i cant use gmail and angry birds because of some high performance driver issue. The alpha version before this was better.
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Windows 8? I tried as many as 8 blue screen restarts so far. No luck. Still keeps crashing my system into the BSOD. Did alpha work on Windows 8 CP x64?
I was part of the closed beta 1 test and have been in email communication with Bluestacks development and they informed me that they do not have a beta ready for Windows 8 because it is still changing. It sounds like the focus is on Windows 7 for now.
Pls provide download links.....
Sent from my Dell Streak using XDA
nitin1978 said:
Pls provide download links.....
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http://bluestacks.com/
nobody wants this cancer on their computers
Be on the lookout for this (when or if) it comes out
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-33377_1-57355786/bluestacks-goes-metro-with-windows-8/
o2neouzr said:
nobody wants this cancer on their computers
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Indeed, Bluestacks should be avoided. They have no support forums (personal top gripe) and have made it quite clear they plan to try to make a quick buck leveraging VirtualBox and Android x86 while not giving anything back.
As best I can tell, they have just added an OpenGL pass through driver to Android x86 when running on VB as well as started to recompile some apps which use the ARM NDK to the x86 NDK. Far better to have the Android x86 community work on an automated NDK conversion and their own driver implementation than be shackled.
Also, their TOS lets them abuse your facebook page in new and interesting ways as well as do some serious data mining without any form of opt-out or transparency.
There are support forums:
https://getsatisfaction.com/bstk
BlueStacks even went as far as supplying a link on how to root and install gapps. I wouldn't say there is a lack of support. BlueStacks in my opinion also runs faster than x86 on a virtual machine.
aaronb1138 said:
Indeed, Bluestacks should be avoided. They have no support forums (personal top gripe) and have made it quite clear they plan to try to make a quick buck leveraging VirtualBox and Android x86 while not giving anything back.
As best I can tell, they have just added an OpenGL pass through driver to Android x86 when running on VB as well as started to recompile some apps which use the ARM NDK to the x86 NDK. Far better to have the Android x86 community work on an automated NDK conversion and their own driver implementation than be shackled.
Also, their TOS lets them abuse your facebook page in new and interesting ways as well as do some serious data mining without any form of opt-out or transparency.
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Virtualbox and android are licensed under GPLv2/CDDL and apache respectively. Android specifically is exactly the same as stock device roms, they're under no obilgation to return code to upstream. (though every large project like this should return code, but bar the kernel they dont have to for the android portion).
virtualbox, i'm guessing they're using CDDL for it if they're not returning code.
Tell oracle (or whoever is developing it) and the android x86 teams to not release their sources under free software licenses that arnt also copyleft then.
At least with androidx86 I believe that they're free to migrate from apache -> gplv3 (according to wikipedia I dont believe gplv2 is applicable without relicensing?). But they didnt, they're still apache, which means they full well know that they can be forked and not have code returned.
Those two points are pretty much universally expected for android devices. Samsung and HTC are good enough that they provide mode then the minimal GPL modules, but they're closer to the exception then the norm. There's plenty of very low end (but inexpensive) ICS tabs being hawked on our own market. I cant really see them giving more then the bare minimum (even if that) much less providing any updates at all. They're just as much making a quick buck by only offering updates by buying a new model.
They've havnt required facebook since 0.5.0.2002, which I believe was their first public release. It was merely the cloud client that required it. You can easily use the alphas and betas without even having a facebook acct. I cant speak on how they are about people that actually opt-ed in to attachign their FB accts, but I dont have one period.
Perhaps their cloud sync isnt respecting your privacy as it should, because you right about that part. Bstacks doesnt have a clear privacy policy (or any at all on their site currently)
They're not the only ones using getsatisfaction, which acts as their support point. I cant say that I like it, but it's there. They've added a couple suggestions due to it, but it's not a forum.
Realistically, how long do you have to wait for androidx86 to be bundled in a way that lets you run it in a vm, have fair virtualization/emulation, and is stable? (though bstacks is still beta, and androidx86 is 'rc1') Androidx86 is targeting bare metal, bstacks isnt. Perhaps androidx86 actually runs perfectly well under a vm and also supports some level of hardware passthough too. Their site has instructions for using the eeepc froyo iso on virtualbox. But they obviously dont officially support virtualbox or qemu as they dont provide direct images, they merely happen to work/boot on them.
Androidx86 has 5 different isos targeting 5 different platforms, and none of them match my devices (or any of my vms explicitly). Bstacks explicitly supports vista/7 and implicitly is going to support xp/8 in the future.
I'd much rather have something working now that targets my interests then wait for something that might be more sustainable but isnt targeting me.
It's much like how xda has moto droid forums, really you shouldnt be supporting moto at least when it comes to their locked down bootloaders.
But we're not telling people to buy a different device, we give them workarounds and guides.
Finally, all bstacks is is just an opengl passthough, why has noone else done it already?
I dont expect that androidx86 on virtualbox integrates as well otherwise it'd already be huge news.
I want a virtualized android so my convertable laptop can double as a really high end android tablet, and that's what bstacks will eventually offer.
(if and when they migrate from 2.3.4 to 4.0.x)
If there's any errors, feel free to correct me. I'm rather unsure about how correct I am on the virtualbox parts.
Edit: after trying androidx86 2.3/3.2/4.0 it's fairly useless as a android tablet replacement. They dont support VM integration, and that's pretty much a requirement if you intend to use it to compliment your OS (vs merely being a utility on your os).
4.0 doesnt even work on vb with vb 4.1.8, it cant reach the home screen.
Dont take this as criticism of androidx86 though, they're always going to be undermanned and underfunded. And like previously mentioned VB isnt even a tier 1 target for them.
But realistically, there's no current alternative to bstacks for windows. Seriously suggesting androidx86 + virtualbox right now is like saying to trade for a transformer to someone asking how to install CM9 on the touchpad
moved to general - not dev
Just install steel series controller drivers or steel series engine!
http://steelseries.com/g/steelseries-engine
Will totally brick your windows installation! Good times, thank you for the loss..
I've tested this 3 times on a new installation, Had to reimage and reinstall, no luck. can't use game pad controller driver, won't upgrade..
Congrats, you're a beta tester. Have you actually reported this to anybody whose job it is to do something about it?
It isnt called an early build for no reason. Its out here for you to find those issues and report them to microsoft, not ***** on forums about it.
Whoa, beta software being unstable?! Somebody call Microsoft!
Wow, beta software being put on the windows store without being call beta software!, it's a pre-release, NOT BETA.
But, it's good that your so eager to point that out.
So, have you reported the bug yet?
Also, exactly what do you believe the distinction is between "pre-release" and "beta"? I mean, http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/preview-faq sure sounds like "beta" to me even if they don't use that actual word.
Testing with older or obscure software and hardware is the primary reason why Microsoft (and other large software companies) have pre-release versions, whatever they're called. You're in a position to help both Microsoft and yourself, here.
With MS, public pre-releases are for PR, for aficionados to get the software and do the evangelizing gruntwork. It's not a beta, because there is no formal mechanism for bug reporting, despite the "send it in" button. That, and normal people don't know how to properly beta test anyway. A pre-release is not supposed to have any obvious bugs, although peripheral driver compatibility is among the last things to be tested.
These said, 8.1 is the first of MS' new "rapid release" product, so common sense would indicate it's gonna be rougher than the old 3-yr cycle. From the smattering of reports, some features are still unfinished.
With RTM 1-2 months out, it's probably not worth the trouble to install the pre-release, unless you have a spare box to throw it onto, or you're a 0-day guy who GOTTA HAVE IT NOW.
I know this doesn't apply to all of us but as someone who is a heavy android game player waiting on my Nexus 6 has got my worried that about half my games that i have invested hours and hours and hours into will not be playable on this device.
Now sure some over time will be updated to work again. But plenty of poor devs (like EA) can't be counted on to update games that are a few years old. And it's my belief Google should make every new android update somehow programed with a way to make older apps work. Granted i know we are moving to art. But certainly there could have been a creative programming solution.
I think how great a game like Dead Space would look on a Nexus 6 and unfortunately i will never probably see it.
What makes you think that any of your games will have issues with the nexus 6?
Couldn't tell you which game but a buddy of mine can't play one on his, nexus 7 2nd gen updated to lollipop, anymore.
But no I don't think google should make everything backwards compatible. At a certain point that's going to hinder progress when you can't change certain things because (this is overboard but) apps meant for 1.5 wouldn't work anymore.
seh6183 said:
What makes you think that any of your games will have issues with the nexus 6?
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Most Square Enix games explicitly say they don't support ART.
Hand76 said:
I know this doesn't apply to all of us but as someone who is a heavy android game player waiting on my Nexus 6 has got my worried that about half my games that i have invested hours and hours and hours into will not be playable on this device.
Now sure some over time will be updated to work again. But plenty of poor devs (like EA) can't be counted on to update games that are a few years old. And it's my belief Google should make every new android update somehow programed with a way to make older apps work. Granted i know we are moving to art. But certainly there could have been a creative programming solution.
I think how great a game like Dead Space would look on a Nexus 6 and unfortunately i will never probably see it.
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It is not the responsibility of the developer of the OS to ensure third party games work with their updated API's, that is solely on the app/game developers. If they don't want to put the work in, then you are just out of luck unless someone programs some kind of emulator. It is what is required on desktop OS's for compatibility, I see no reason to change that for the mobile world.
Retaining legacy support for extended periods just leads to junk like Windows XP continuing to be used despite Microsoft dropping support.
It is inevitable and necessary for backward compatibility to break at some point of time otherwise all phones would still be running on android doughnut.
I understand it should be the developer that fixes it. But being most are not going to care (Ea/Gameloft) if it's a slightly older tile. It would be nice if Google had a plan b for us.
Take ms Windows. All the newer ones 7/8 have a way to run software in an older compatability mode.
Bottom line v is some companies have 40-50-60+ apps in their android library and growing. We are going to expect them to update all of them every year Google makes changes??? Or are we just going to slowly keep losing everything over time?
Your gripe is with the app developers not google. Also you say every year when google updates. That's not accurate. This is the first time in a long time that google has implemented something that would break app compatibility.
seh6183 said:
Your gripe is with the app developers not google. Also you say every year when google updates. That's not accurate. This is the first time in a long time that google has implemented something that would break app compatibility.
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That's not accurate. When Kitkat was released i would say about 30-40% of the games I had had to be updated to work on it. Most were fixed in months i don't think we're going to be as lucky this time
Hand76 said:
That's not accurate. When Kitkat was released i would say about 30-40% of the games I had had to be updated to work on it. Most were fixed in months i don't think we're going to be as lucky this time
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Right and when jellybean came out nothing broke. So my statement stands.
Solution. Don't buy software from devs you know will not support their product.
Skripka said:
Solution. Don't buy software from devs you know will not support their product.
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^^^^^^^^THIS/thread^^^^^^^^
OP, the BEST thing you and other people like you could do is vote with your wallet and not purchase these company's products and to tell them exactly why. No one NEEDS any of these games but these companies NEED your money.
AndrasLOHF said:
^^^^^^^^THIS/thread^^^^^^^^
OP, the BEST thing you and other people like you could do is vote with your wallet and not purchase these company's products and to tell them exactly why. No one NEEDS any of these games but these companies NEED your money.
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Further, if you don't mind a history lesson, supporting ancients OSes long past their prime is what nearly killed Apple. Their OS X was such a smash hit in large part technically because they finally severed software support for years and years of previous OSes. People squawked initially and being cut off, but then didn't mind the dividends in performance.