Related
http://code.google.com/android/
incase anyones not familiar with android, check that site out.
im not sure why there isnt more development or developers that are going after this in terms of getting it working on all devices? im currently using it on my vogue and its amazing. definately better UI in terms of EVERYTHING. its open source, so i think developers should be all over this! has so much potential its kind of ridiculous
vogue thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=382265
its working about 80% now thanks to amazing developer martin.
the browser and everything (overall UI) are so much better and smoother than windows mobile! and being that its open source with google ENCOURAGING development of apps and themes and skins and whatnot, i think this is the next best thing to happen to ppc's.
THIS is the actual iphone killer.
just some samples
on a vogue (very smooth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0z9bWiAT44
just a demo of the browser (mine is actually a little smoother than this)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2FpDDEVWtk
the reason im posting this here is because i was the first one to post in this section with manilla2d (when udk first released it), asking whether we can get this on other devices, and look what happened with that. if we can get the amazing developers from here to work on this like they worked on m2d, then wow this will be amazing!
Yeah, even I'm suprised at the low level of excitement of porting this to all devices. Hoping for some real development . Btw, those videos are pretty impressive.
Akshay
Yeah... I'm a little surprised too.
I have a Vogue now, so I'm OK, but I'd love to see somebody pick this project up for the Touch Pro. It seems to be very similar to the G1, so the porting would be a lot more complete than the porting to the Vogue.
Hopefully somebody with the skills (read: not me) will undertake this.
it'll pick up. i say in 6 months to a year people will snap out of the apple app dev craze. but from a dev point of view, apple is where its at right now. the amount of money you could make is a driver by all means.
htc will also be a key part in this. when they start to release better looking hardware, perhaps something on par with the diamond....you'll see a user increase. and user increase translate into dev interest. so just hang in there....i think you'll get what you want soon.
A ppc that works only on 80 Percent ? And no additional Software, no outlook syncronisation? Thats at the moment somthing for freaks or people with a second device
If there would be a 100 Percent Android i would install it, believe me, because i´m not very happy with windows anymore.
So i think we must wait and hope.
My next Device in half a year will be hopefully the Touch HD with Android rolleyes
because it makes no sense to port androud to a phone that is not 3G with GPS.
the only advantage of the g phone that I saw was the service. 3G and free GPS! i'm like, how much for the puppy in the window?
I honestly think that porting it to my wizard would be senseless.
without the service the gphone is just a phone wothout service.
S.V.I said:
because it makes no sense to port androud to a phone that is not 3G with GPS.
the only advantage of the g phone that I saw was the service. 3G and free GPS! i'm like, how much for the puppy in the window?
I honestly think that porting it to my wizard would be senseless.
without the service the gphone is just a phone wothout service.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course it is always pointless. We do it because we can (and because we don't want to do anything while at work)
(and much like bluemetal, we are all tired of the same old look and functionality in our WM devices). Then again, it can always be worse....
we could all have iphones
Anyways, I am looking forward to someone porting this to the Blue Angel.
The bigest stumbling block for me is lack of Exchange support. GPS isn't really necessary with the cell tower triangulation available. The accuracy is getting better. It will never be as tight as GPS but close is good enough for me. I can do with out 3G (I wish I had it) I don't enjoy the experience with the little screen. It's like looking at the ocean through a porthole. A 5 inch screen with much better resolution would be great. I use it for quick info but surfing is not fun.
I do like the idea of going linux on the phone. It would be that much closer to having a truely mobile desktop. We wouldn't have to install resource hogging shells that ride on top of an already bloated today screen to get better customization.
I think the biggest problem overall though is the hardware needed will put a lot of older equipment like my little wizard out to pasture. I don't have the funds to rush out an purchase a new phone. And yes I think all the bugs will need to be shaken out for a while before I take the plunge. Maybe by the 2nd or third generation of Android things will be a little less "bleeding edge". It all looks great now but I rely on my phone too much to gamble on an untried system.
To be completely honest, I too am suprised by the lack of progress.
This is a complete replacement for Windows Mobile: something we've all only dreamed about up until now. It will have a wicked Dev community around it soon enough.
There were a hell of a lot of efforts to get the Beta running. But now... nothing?
*so confused
The worst part is, it'd be gorgeous on my LG KS20, but I doubt we'll see it anytime soon: no one loves us KS20 owners. Guess you were all just jealous of our drivers.
bluemetalaxe said:
A ppc that works only on 80 Percent ? And no additional Software, no outlook syncronisation? Thats at the moment somthing for freaks or people with a second device
If there would be a 100 Percent Android i would install it, believe me, because i´m not very happy with windows anymore.
So i think we must wait and hope.
My next Device in half a year will be hopefully the Touch HD with Android rolleyes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i don't know if you read my whole post, but i never said "hey everyone lets run something 80% finished on our ppcs."
waiting and hoping isnt going to do anything, thats why i started this thread. to get more attention instead of sitting and waiting for something we arent sure is going to ever happen.
im glad a lot of other people are on the same page as me, wondering why there is barely any development for this. thanks for the support guys
lets get some devs in here to weigh in on this!
Well, there's a number of quite simple reasons...
- Porting Android to another device isn't as simple as "Hey, it's Open Source, you just have to compile and install". First of all, you'd need to find a working cross compiler for ARM in the first place (one using Windows' API, like those used for PPC apps isn't much help). Then you'd need to write drivers for usually undocumented hardware with this cross compiler or in ARM assembler (reusing existing WM drivers, like in cooked ROMs, wouldn't work in Linux). Finally, you need to find a way to flash that system to your PPC (that's a bit more work than a patched/cooked variation of an already existing WM ROM), and so on. That's work for the kind of freaks who would do their taxes binary in mind...
- Writing apps for a system almost nobody own so far isn't that attractive. It's even less attractive if the potential developer doesn't own one - the real experience is always a bit different to an emulator, and usually would like some use for himself, too (what good is an mobile app for you if you'd need a laptop with emulator to use it? ). So far, there's only one official Android device out there, and aside from the fact it's still a bit "first try, for developers only" (no Outlook sync, ugly design, ...), you only get it in very few parts of the world or in overpriced eBay auctions. Inofficial ports with reduced functionality and maybe buggy or slow "beta" drivers aren't that great, too...
- While the Android API is quite close to common Java style, it's still something completely new, which requires some time to get into the framework's basic style, the available functions, the loopholes and small tricks, etc. With WM, the gap to common Windows (desktop) programming is way smaller, and I guess it's similar with the iPhone and Mac programming.
Or, in other words: Give Andoid some time to grow up. IMHO, G1 and the few existing ports are a playground for hackers and early adopters, so they can get startet with fixing (security holes, missing functionality, ...). Then, in some months, more devices with a "hacker improved" Android will be published, and when developers buy those, they also will start writing apps if they are missing something.
you'd think more people would be starting to port.. because god is that g1 terrible, you have to have sharpened pencils for fingers to type on that flush keyboard)
Mort said:
Well, there's a number of quite simple reasons...
- Porting Android to another device isn't as simple as "Hey, it's Open Source, you just have to compile and install". First of all, you'd need to find a working cross compiler for ARM in the first place (one using Windows' API, like those used for PPC apps isn't much help). Then you'd need to write drivers for usually undocumented hardware with this cross compiler or in ARM assembler (reusing existing WM drivers, like in cooked ROMs, wouldn't work in Linux). Finally, you need to find a way to flash that system to your PPC (that's a bit more work than a patched/cooked variation of an already existing WM ROM), and so on. That's work for the kind of freaks who would do their taxes binary in mind...
- Writing apps for a system almost nobody own so far isn't that attractive. It's even less attractive if the potential developer doesn't own one - the real experience is always a bit different to an emulator, and usually would like some use for himself, too (what good is an mobile app for you if you'd need a laptop with emulator to use it? ). So far, there's only one official Android device out there, and aside from the fact it's still a bit "first try, for developers only" (no Outlook sync, ugly design, ...), you only get it in very few parts of the world or in overpriced eBay auctions. Inofficial ports with reduced functionality and maybe buggy or slow "beta" drivers aren't that great, too...
- While the Android API is quite close to common Java style, it's still something completely new, which requires some time to get into the framework's basic style, the available functions, the loopholes and small tricks, etc. With WM, the gap to common Windows (desktop) programming is way smaller, and I guess it's similar with the iPhone and Mac programming.
Or, in other words: Give Andoid some time to grow up. IMHO, G1 and the few existing ports are a playground for hackers and early adopters, so they can get startet with fixing (security holes, missing functionality, ...). Then, in some months, more devices with a "hacker improved" Android will be published, and when developers buy those, they also will start writing apps if they are missing something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok now these reasons make a lot of sense. im just surprised that not as many people are trying to get it started so they can get started on fixing, like you said. but ok, all of your other reasons make complete sense. im sure the future releases of android will only get better.
android just seems like exactly what many of us have been looking for in wm devices, basically, a complete UI replacement endorsed/created by a large company (other than microsoft lol).
jakub_w said:
im just surprised that not as many people are trying to get it started so they can get started on fixing, like you said.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who knows? AFAIK, the order numbers aren't that bad, and all those reviewers give some feedback, too. I mean, it's only a week since the G1 is available at all, and, as said, it's not very attractive so far. Not everybody wants to spend hundreds of dollars just to provide Google with requests and code changes and T-Mobile and HTC with money...
android just seems like exactly what many of us have been looking for in wm devices, basically, a complete UI replacement endorsed/created by a large company (other than microsoft lol).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think the UI is the really big thing about Android. You can even replace it completely, and I don't know (yet) where the limits / design guides are for applications. I just hope it doesn't get as confusing as Linux on the desktop, where even a Gnome or KDE desktop can be modified so far that it's almost as hard to switch distros as switching from Windows to MacOS...
The important things about Android are more in the basic technology, imho, like
- A stable, timeless system core (*nix is older than me, so "modern" is not quite correct - that goes for MacOS X, too, btw...)
- Seamless integration of connection management and phone functions (opposed to WM, where it still acts like a makeshift patchwork, and with every update less APIs are working...)
- Portable application framework (Java, lots of system APIs)
- Simple application installation (no "is this EXE a PC setup or the PPC executable?", "How the hell do I install a CAB file?", ...)
However, I still wonder how/if Andoid will support direct PC synchronization (for shared files, contacts, appointments, music, ...) and how fast and memory consumptive the required Java VM is... (Well, at least none of the G1 reviews I read complained about that, so it seems to be faster than .NET on WM...)
i was just playing around with android and in the dev tools or api demos theres a section called opengl es. i have a vogue and i tried these, they ran extremely smoothly. isnt this something that everyone has been saying is impossible? (specifically for getting tf3d to run on the vogue) i think this proves that software driven 3d is more than capable of handling tf3d. just a thought.
jakub_w said:
i was just playing around with android and in the dev tools or api demos theres a section called opengl es. i have a vogue and i tried these, they ran extremely smoothly. isnt this something that everyone has been saying is impossible? (specifically for getting tf3d to run on the vogue) i think this proves that software driven 3d is more than capable of handling tf3d. just a thought.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I definitely agree with you on that. Thing is though is that this is a completely different environment with a different set of drivers (and rules) which makes (for example) modifying their parameters to allow for keys normally used for certain functions in WM to be used for something completely different. Also OpenGL (ES) is all that is used on *nix OSes whether or not they run on full or embedded hardware. All that's needed is the driver for the graphics chip. Microsoft wants you to use their proprietary D3D not OpenGL (ES) hence why it was impossible to have OpenGL (ES) before. Also TF3D uses DirectX and not OpenGL ES AFAIK.
Android is great. Only thing I need is a way to get the SDcard image working and a HTC Touch Pro to port Android, Angstrom and/or OpenMoko to, I'd be set.
why would you develop software for an operating system that isn't even fully ported yet?
joel2009 said:
why would you develop software for an operating system that isn't even fully ported yet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Weeell....
- It's Linux and Open Source (some people wouldn't touch a closed system with a stick...)
- It's nice to be prepared when you get the running system
- There is a device with that OS
- The documentation is way better than Microsoft's
- There's a good chance the API will remain compatible, so it doesn't hurt to start early (opposed to WM, where some basic features can/could only be done with device dependant or inofficial APIs, which were dropped in newer updates...)
Not that I'm asking for help about the sluggishness, it's just that the G1 is just overall way more sluggish than my friends iPhone 3G. As in web pages load WAY faster (Wifi on both devices being used). The UI is way more snappy.
And I understand the trade offs I'd get with an iPhone. No true multitasking or alerts from apps (like twitter email etc. . .) No Gmail push (I think) no Google Cal sync over the air, or contact sync OTA. All these things are great, but I dunno, I think I'm going to crossover into iPhone land soon. The G1 just became a let down for me after using it closely for about 6 months. And using other peoples iPhones on and off.
This is just a rant. And mostly I'm talking about browser load speeds and UI. It would be nice if Google maps oriented the direction we're facing since it has a compass. But the new update is moving in the right direction. Love the walking directions. But I think I'm gonna move on to 1 app at a time, Draconian app approval, HYPE land, release 5 HW revisions before making a new product, iPhone land.
Any Takers. Who can refute my arguments. I'm using Google Ion ROM also.
Heh, and the iPhone 3GS supposed to be even faster!
You're pretty much begging for a flame by asking that in here.
It's all down to personal choice and preference. Your thread isn't about your 'sluggish G1'; You're asking us to convince you why you need a G1.
Nobody cares that you no longer want a G1. But don't make a new thread masquerading as a plea for help that is really about:
Any Takers. Who can refute my arguments.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i hope you enjoy your seemingly faster (much more expensive, much less useful) iphone.
my personal experience has been different, but you seem like the kind of person who wouldn't be convinced even with hard evidence.
Alright. Well. I don't benchmark or use "hard evidence" tests, I just go off the feel of things. Of course I know the iPhone is locking you into a Lot of things. But a jailbroken iPhone 3G / 3G S will be more fun app / mobile safari. And as far as a reason for keep the G1 I'm not looking for a reason. I've rooted the phone, used apps2sd 2 with an ext3 partition. Made sure data/data is in intmem etc. . . The Rom dev is great, but an iPhone is like having an SL500. Of course more gas, higher maintenance cost. G1 is like having a nice truck that's a hybrid. It just doesn't feel as sexy. It can do Way more, but its a truck.
I'm cool with hearing other reasons why the G1 isn't sluggish etc. I'll listen, but I was just posting this out of my frustration of a slower browser and slower UI. I don't really know what the flame talk was about or me covering up intentions. These are just phones. But I think a jailbroken iPhone 3G beats out a rooted G1. Plus I'm not trying to ssh into my linux server with debian installed over hero.
Anyway, its just a conversation I wanted to spark with people who understand what I'm talking about. Not to mention the apps are a big plus too. And don't get me wrong, the g1 is good for the things it was built to address. The iPhone will just be more fun.
do you have all the newest and update firmware and radio installed?
your title is misleading.
also, only way to find out which one is better......... go and get both and use both and decided from there
I'm pretty sure I have the newest firmware. Haykuro's that was causing bricks on non PVT boards. I was using JF 1.51 ADP. I moved to cyanogen mod of JF. I moved on to hero, then google Ion rom. Oh and the sapphire rom. Ion rom was fastest, but iPhone's overall fell and touch is simply night and day. So is the browser. Steel was great before cupcake but it closes so much now its not even useable.
Oh yeah, radio is up to date too, hence the non bricked phone. Nevermind no 3G here in our area. I just want to hear others opinions before I drop 300 / plus a deposit for bad credit / and charging me for txt msg! But I'll have more apps.
The g1 does seem to get sluggish over time. I would try a wipe. That should restore the speed of the phone.
However, there's no getting around the performance of the iphone as it supports 2d hardware acceleration. The g1 and android only does software rendering so its never going to be faster than the iphone until the google devs start supporting 2d hardware acceleration (g1 has a graphics chip so it should be possible).
I personally don't find the g1 very sluggish. Maybe its sluggish compared to the iphone (I don't know as I don't have one to compare with), but on its own, the g1's UI is quite snappy (i'm running cyanogen ROM).
larrygates said:
Not that I'm asking for help about the sluggishness, it's just that the G1 is just overall way more sluggish than my friends iPhone 3G. As in web pages load WAY faster (Wifi on both devices being used). The UI is way more snappy.
Do you have a lot widgets running or background tasks? All those take up memory and cpu cycles which will end up slowing down the phone a lot.
And I understand the trade offs I'd get with an iPhone. No true multitasking or alerts from apps (like twitter email etc. . .) No Gmail push (I think) no Google Cal sync over the air, or contact sync OTA. All these things are great, but I dunno, I think I'm going to crossover into iPhone land soon. The G1 just became a let down for me after using it closely for about 6 months. And using other peoples iPhones on and off.
This is just a rant. And mostly I'm talking about browser load speeds and UI. It would be nice if Google maps oriented the direction we're facing since it has a compass. But the new update is moving in the right direction. Love the walking directions. But I think I'm gonna move on to 1 app at a time, Draconian app approval, HYPE land, release 5 HW revisions before making a new product, iPhone land.
Any Takers. Who can refute my arguments. I'm using Google Ion ROM also.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's my take:
I love the iphone ! I think it's the best comsumer phone (and i'm not kidding). The 1 app at a time applies to G1 too (almost): try playing Mafia then going to the browser (or another game) and back... Good luck with that !
Now the reason i use the G1 is that i NEED to be connected to yahoo messenger, i NEED to have my tweets as soon as they come (i use twitter for work). And i NEED a hardware keyboard. And i NEED weather on a widget, and background downloading of RSS feeds (NewsRob). And i NEED better integration between apps (i'll explain).
When Push notifications come to the iphone, things are going to change. It will be very close to what i have now on my G1. The only things missing would be the RSS thing and the HW keyboard.
About the integration: I can click share on a picture, and it will list the programs that can do something with it (like Twidroid). I really like this, and there are more examples.
Now, what you have to ask yourself is: What do YOU need ? When you know that, you'll know what you have to choose.
Bah, long post. I hate long posts.
Do you find the G1 UI significantly more sluggish than the iphone?
RPG0 said:
Here's my take:
I love the iphone ! I think it's the best comsumer phone (and i'm not kidding). The 1 app at a time applies to G1 too (almost): try playing Mafia then going to the browser (or another game) and back... Good luck with that !
Now the reason i use the G1 is that i NEED to be connected to yahoo messenger, i NEED to have my tweets as soon as they come (i use twitter for work). And i NEED a hardware keyboard. And i NEED weather on a widget, and background downloading of RSS feeds (NewsRob). And i NEED better integration between apps (i'll explain).
When Push notifications come to the iphone, things are going to change. It will be very close to what i have now on my G1. The only things missing would be the RSS thing and the HW keyboard.
About the integration: I can click share on a picture, and it will list the programs that can do something with it (like Twidroid). I really like this, and there are more examples.
Now, what you have to ask yourself is: What do YOU need ? When you know that, you'll know what you have to choose.
Bah, long post. I hate long posts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dwang said:
Do you find the G1 UI significantly more sluggish than the iphone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If i were to rate UIs of phones (based ONLY on smoothness) i would give the iphone an 9/10 and the G1 a 8/10.
The thing is... actually the difference mostly comes from the touchscreen sensitivity. There are two bad things about the G1 here:
SPOILER ALERT: After reading you might notice new bad things about your G1...
1. Try touching the screen with a small part of your finger (the very tip) and you'll see it won't register. This happens more in real life than you would think...
2. Try opening the notification bar SLOWLY and you'll see it shakes as you move your finger. If you stop mid-way it will shake most of the time... Actually any list will shake if you drag it and then stop... kinda cheap.
3. The sides of the screen in portrait have a "snap" zone. Try moving an icon to one side, and it will stop folowing your finger at a moment, then it will snap to the border. (On my phone this only happens on the right side. On the left side it's worse. I CAN'T register touch on the edge there. It's a nightmare to move an icon to a screen to the left.).
I knew HTC was bad news when i dug deeper into my Kaiser.
So.. G1 actually 7/10... Android on a good phone 8-8.5/10.
Yes this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not very in the know, but I do know how to follow directions and root phones. But YES the missing HW acceleration is felt when I go from iPhone to G1. It's unsettling. But . . .
dwang said:
The g1 does seem to get sluggish over time. I would try a wipe. That should restore the speed of the phone.
However, there's no getting around the performance of the iphone as it supports 2d hardware acceleration. The g1 and android only does software rendering so its never going to be faster than the iphone until the google devs start supporting 2d hardware acceleration (g1 has a graphics chip so it should be possible).
I personally don't find the g1 very sluggish. Maybe its sluggish compared to the iphone (I don't know as I don't have one to compare with), but on its own, the g1's UI is quite snappy (i'm running cyanogen ROM).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You gave pretty much all the reasons I waited for the G1 and went with it. I knew it acted more like a computer and actually integrated different api's into 1 whole (if you will). Or let the app devs get to the api's. But I like having my feeds come to me without thinking, I like twitter updates, I love gmail being like my old blackberry exchange solution. I WISH live maps or mesh or whatever it's called for Windows Mobile 6.1 would come to android. Someone asked about widgets etc. I disabled all widgets, actually I wiped to a clean Ion Rom that isn't running anything in the background but essentials. It's the HW accel I'm thinking, and the sensitivity of the touch screen. It's great on the iPHone. These were the replies I was looking for. Just something to chomp on before I make any moves. Cause I'm seriously thinking about making that move. I'll lose a lot though. But I'll gain a lot back.
Oh yeah, how come maps on the G1 doesn't auto orient like the iPhone does now. We have a compass, and the new maps is better, at least it shows the direction, but I have to rotate the phone though.
RPG0 said:
Here's my take:
I love the iphone ! I think it's the best comsumer phone (and i'm not kidding). The 1 app at a time applies to G1 too (almost): try playing Mafia then going to the browser (or another game) and back... Good luck with that !
Now the reason i use the G1 is that i NEED to be connected to yahoo messenger, i NEED to have my tweets as soon as they come (i use twitter for work). And i NEED a hardware keyboard. And i NEED weather on a widget, and background downloading of RSS feeds (NewsRob). And i NEED better integration between apps (i'll explain).
When Push notifications come to the iphone, things are going to change. It will be very close to what i have now on my G1. The only things missing would be the RSS thing and the HW keyboard.
About the integration: I can click share on a picture, and it will list the programs that can do something with it (like Twidroid). I really like this, and there are more examples.
Now, what you have to ask yourself is: What do YOU need ? When you know that, you'll know what you have to choose.
Bah, long post. I hate long posts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The iphone 3gs does look pretty great, but I'm not switching from tmobile to att just for the iphone. There's going to be some nice android phones coming down the line, hopefully with upgraded cpu and memory to match the pre and 3gs. That should narrow the performance differences significantly. And hopefully android 2.0 (donut) finally implements 2d hardware acceleration.
larrygates said:
Yes this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not very in the know, but I do know how to follow directions and root phones. But YES the missing HW acceleration is felt when I go from iPhone to G1. It's unsettling. But . . .
You gave pretty much all the reasons I waited for the G1 and went with it. I knew it acted more like a computer and actually integrated different api's into 1 whole (if you will). Or let the app devs get to the api's. But I like having my feeds come to me without thinking, I like twitter updates, I love gmail being like my old blackberry exchange solution. I WISH live maps or mesh or whatever it's called for Windows Mobile 6.1 would come to android. Someone asked about widgets etc. I disabled all widgets, actually I wiped to a clean Ion Rom that isn't running anything in the background but essentials. It's the HW accel I'm thinking, and the sensitivity of the touch screen. It's great on the iPHone. These were the replies I was looking for. Just something to chomp on before I make any moves. Cause I'm seriously thinking about making that move. I'll lose a lot though. But I'll gain a lot back.
Oh yeah, how come maps on the G1 doesn't auto orient like the iPhone does now. We have a compass, and the new maps is better, at least it shows the direction, but I have to rotate the phone though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See I'm worried about that. Why wouldn't android have he hw accel. I'm using an iPhone now to post this. Hw key is good, but this iPhone is very nice. I'll try to hold out and see. But I'll take it up the a!! Yeah I'm getting one. A 3G S.
dwang said:
The iphone 3gs does look pretty great, but I'm not switching from tmobile to att just for the iphone. There's going to be some nice android phones coming down the line, hopefully with upgraded cpu and memory to match the pre and 3gs. That should narrow the performance differences significantly. And hopefully android 2.0 (donut) finally implements 2d hardware acceleration.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
larrygates said:
See I'm worried about that. Why wouldn't android have he hw accel. I'm using an iPhone now to post this. Hw key is good, but this iPhone is very nice. I'll try to hold out and see. But I'll take it up the a!! Yeah I'm getting one. A 3G S.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well you laid out the talking points pretty well in your first post (and frankly aside from multitasking, iPhone OS 3.0 has fixed a lot deficiencies), so if you're set on an iPhone, just go for it.
Frankly, if having used a G1 for a while you are still considering an iPhone, then the iPhone is probably a better product for you. Reasons such as avoiding being locked into Apple's closed ecosystem probably weren't ever a factor for you at all.
Hey thanks for the civil post. The last thing you said is a hard one along with at&t. Apple is pretty slick with marketing, and they're hardware upgrades really screw you. Plus I think one of the guys here said something about dual core chips in phones next year.
About the Eco system hopefully jailbreaking side steps a lot of the walls on the phone. We'll see. I need to wait some things out and see how the dev team comes along. Someone said I should look into the pre, but I wonder if its similar to the G1.
jashsu said:
Well you laid out the talking points pretty well in your first post (and frankly aside from multitasking, iPhone OS 3.0 has fixed a lot deficiencies), so if you're set on an iPhone, just go for it.
Frankly, if having used a G1 for a while you are still considering an iPhone, then the iPhone is probably a better product for you. Reasons such as avoiding being locked into Apple's closed ecosystem probably weren't ever a factor for you at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bah. This is only personal preference nonsense. Go get the iphone if ur tired of the g1.
larrygates said:
Hey thanks for the civil post.
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Just because i'm using and love the G1 doesn't mean the iPhone is a bad phone. I really don't have time to spend writing up a long convincing article why you should stay with the G1, let alone flame-coat it.
The last thing you said is a hard one along with at&t. Apple is pretty slick with marketing, and they're hardware upgrades really screw you. Plus I think one of the guys here said something about dual core chips in phones next year.
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Click to collapse
All hardware obsoletes, iPhone or otherwise. It's just a fact of tech life. If you constantly wait for the better hardware upgrade then you will never have any hardware at all.
About the Eco system hopefully jailbreaking side steps a lot of the walls on the phone. We'll see. I need to wait some things out and see how the dev team comes along. Someone said I should look into the pre, but I wonder if its similar to the G1.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Obviously the phone is better in some respects than others. But for example it will only sync with iTunes. I will never install iTunes or Quicktime ever again because they are poorly written pieces of spyware crap. Also, the cloud sync clearly prefers Mobile Me as the primary service. Remember when Mobile Me launched? It was a pile of cowpie. Even Apple admitted this.
The iPhone has a sleek interface and a powerful advertising machine behind it. That's why it and the iPod are such popular devices among consumers. However, being that I am an engineer by trade, I'm not so easily swayed by Apple's glitzy advertising. In that respect, iPhone's deficiencies, past and present come into stark contrast. For example, the inability to multitask userapps is just ridiculous. I actually want to receive my emails and instant messages in realtime, without having to open the Google App. Some people say "just use SMS", which opens up a whole new bag of rant about how SMS is the most ridiculous ripoff scheme ever...
One thing I want to mention regarding sluggishness is if u are running one of those third party home apps like dxtop or ahome, I would try uninstalling those and see if your sluggishness goes away. Also, badly written widgets can cause slowdowns as well. The g1 isn't as fast as the 3g but it really isn't that slow. Especially if u are running ion at 528mhz or cyanogens rom.
jashsu said:
Just because i'm using and love the G1 doesn't mean the iPhone is a bad phone. I really don't have time to spend writing up a long convincing article why you should stay with the G1, let alone flame-coat it.
All hardware obsoletes, iPhone or otherwise. It's just a fact of tech life. If you constantly wait for the better hardware upgrade then you will never have any hardware at all.
Obviously the phone is better in some respects than others. But for example it will only sync with iTunes. I will never install iTunes or Quicktime ever again because they are poorly written pieces of spyware crap. Also, the cloud sync clearly prefers Mobile Me as the primary service. Remember when Mobile Me launched? It was a pile of cowpie. Even Apple admitted this.
The iPhone has a sleek interface and a powerful advertising machine behind it. That's why it and the iPod are such popular devices among consumers. However, being that I am an engineer by trade, I'm not so easily swayed by Apple's glitzy advertising. In that respect, iPhone's deficiencies, past and present come into stark contrast. For example, the inability to multitask userapps is just ridiculous. I actually want to receive my emails and instant messages in realtime, without having to open the Google App. Some people say "just use SMS", which opens up a whole new bag of rant about how SMS is the most ridiculous ripoff scheme ever...
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Click to collapse
Out of curiosity, how is SMS the most ridiculous ripoff scheme ever?
Also, a friend of mine has a 3.0 beta developer firmware of the iPhone which allows multitasking. I myself found a cheap 4gb iPhone on Craigslist and am planning to unlock it for (most likely) a backup phone or business phone, when I've seen both phones and compared for about a week I'll post my findings here.
I was noticing the same sluggishness and such with the G1. You have to remember that, if you're like most users on the forum here, you -are- using an unsupported version of the phone, and it's not working how it's supposed to and how the provider intended for it to be used. Someone else mentioned this, but third-party apps also contribute to that. Depending on what you use, some apps could constantly be taking up extra memory and make your use of the G1 more of a chore, because of the time it takes to open up even a browser.
Anyway, to OP: You could just do what I did. Instead of spending $300 on a new iPhone that you have to dump out another extra $x-amount for new service at AT&Suck, why not just buy a used one on Craigslist or eBay and unlock it? Then you can use it with your current T-Mobile service and not have a lot of extra loss. You don't even need to get rid of your G1, just use one or the other as a backup or something.
The app titled: "Scriptures (beta)" shows up in my G1's market, but does not in my Nexus' market.
Any ideas what's going on?
Did you do any of the following to your Nexus One:
1. Unlocked bootloader?
2. Enable root?
If so, "Scriptures (Beta)" is a *protected* Android application and will not show up.
If not, then it's a OS "support" version issue.
Cheers,
Kermee
Kermee said:
Did you do any of the following to your Nexus One:
1. Unlocked bootloader?
2. Enable root?
If so, "Scriptures (Beta)" is a *protected* Android application and will not show up.
If not, then it's a OS "support" version issue.
Cheers,
Kermee
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Click to collapse
My new N1 is not unlocked/rooted, but my old G1 *is*. But it's the G1 that sees the app fine, and the new N1 does not.
Must be an OS support issue.
I downloaded the app directly from the author's website and it works fine.
mdaddy said:
My new N1 is not unlocked/rooted, but my old G1 *is*. But it's the G1 that sees the app fine, and the new N1 does not.
Must be an OS support issue.
I downloaded the app directly from the author's website and it works fine.
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Click to collapse
Yup. If that's the case, the author needs to fix it and update it on Android Market.
It's annoying for us developers and the damn manifest and API target/limits when "new" stuff comes out... *Sigh*
Anyrate, good deal you got around it!
Cheers,
Kermee
application compatibility
Your phone is listed as a 2.1 device in the market, and if the apps don't specify compatibility (they introduced a compatibility layer in 2.0.1) then they won't show up since they won't work anyway (well, they might, but the general assumption is that they won't)
I guess that explains why AppManager Pro isn't showing up for me on my N1. Annoying. I love that app.
This explains why, when people were talking about Nexus One Torch and I decided to see what it was, my G1 couldn't see it. Now I have a Nexus I can (and it's good )
There are some errors I think, because I want Bonsai Blast which I think I remember was demo'd by the Bonsai Blast google developer for either droid or 2.1. I think it was a demo for the new resolution, so I know it can't be that, and I don't think a google Dev would forget to update his extremely popular app.
Let the application owners know!
When the moto droid came out, I emailed a few developers and some even came out with an update the very next day!
syntrix said:
Let the application owners know!
When the moto droid came out, I emailed a few developers and some even came out with an update the very next day!
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Click to collapse
can somebody e-mail the developer of Bonsai blast then please? or tell me his/her/their name(s)/email?
If we take the conservative assumption that it must be listed on the Google's own market place before it would work on Nexus, how many applications are available at the moment? Is there good statistics on that yet?
Perhaps most of them would work on Nexus one anyway? Love to hear from people who have tried using the applications written for the older OS version and see if they are generally still compatible. It's hard to imagine how a version upgrade would upset the older applications too much.
eaglesteve said:
If we take the conservative assumption that it must be listed on the Google's own market place before it would work on Nexus, how many applications are available at the moment? Is there good statistics on that yet?
Perhaps most of them would work on Nexus one anyway? Love to hear from people who have tried using the applications written for the older OS version and see if they are generally still compatible. It's hard to imagine how a version upgrade would upset the older applications too much.
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Click to collapse
Really the only set-back is the resolution. All of the hardware has exponentially increased. All of Androids apps are written in java, which is pretty standard and should have no problem running on all android platforms.
The only time it should be disallowed would be if a game were to be written for the N1 specs (which cannot run on the G1), and therefore not shown in the market for the G1.
I suppose developers don't want their games to look too pixelated on the N1 until they update the resolutions. It's a waiting game now, since there are absolutely NO games available unless you want to play solitaire.
Or you could email the devs to death requesting an update...
If this is the wrong place for this thread sorry but I could see a forum for these devices.
I just ordered the Archos 101 Internet Tablet 16 GB. It was a toss up between that tablet and the Viewsonic G-Tab. The lighter weight and form factor of the Archos, as well as the fact they were actually in stock and cheaper then the Viewsonic made me end up with one of those.
Has anyone started playing with these devices yet to see if they can be rooted, custom recoveried, or ROM'd yet? I'd love to get Cyanogen 2.2 or a lightweight 2.2 build on this device. Thanks!
Permanent root is still being worked on. Don't plan on seeing Cyanogen on them (at least I haven't heard anything about the Cyanogen team coming up with anything). Once permanent root comes (after the 2.2 update), then custom ROMs will be coming down the pipe.
z4root works for temp root right now, and hopefully perm root soon. If you apply the current 2.2 you will want z4root and SetCpu (search XDA) to get your CPU clock speeds back to 1 GHz.
There are some internal 2.2 fixes coming in the next firmware from Archos that should stabilize things a bit and *hopefully* enable hardware acceleration in Flash. Once that firmware is out we should be at a decent starting point for custom development.
"and *hopefully* enable hardware acceleration in Flash"
It is officially stated by Archos that the hardwareaccelerated Flash is there and just needs confirmation by adobe.
fzelle said:
It is officially stated by Archos that the hardwareaccelerated Flash is there and just needs confirmation by adobe.
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Not sure about you, but the whole process of even getting my A101 wound up being a I'll believe it when I see it affair. I trust the better (working) Flash is coming, but until I see the firmware I will continue to hope.
Hexidecimal said:
Has anyone started playing with these devices yet to see if they can be rooted, custom recoveried, or ROM'd yet? I'd love to get Cyanogen 2.2 or a lightweight 2.2 build on this device. Thanks!
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I have an A70. It's basically the 101 with a 7" screen, so they are the same. I was hesitant to be too exited about it when I decided to order. I had never owned an Archos. In fact, I had never even heard of them.
Now that I actually have my A70, I am very pleased with it. It is fast and very responsive. And the build quality is quite high. On par with Apple even. (please don't start a flame war over this, it's just my opinion).
The real thing that has me exited is that, once this baby gets rooted, it's gonna be so frickin awesome. I don't know about Cyan, but I think there will be some great Roms for it coming down the pipe. After all, there are only a few viable Android tablets out there for a while (the Gtab, Galaxy and Archos), so devs will probably focus their talents on those. It's not like the phone market where you have 50 different platforms to choose from.
Just my .02 cents. I hope you enjoy your A101.
Archos 101: 'Lag' reinvented
I have a Archos 101 8Gb since 2 weeks.
I also own a Samsung Galaxy S, getting rid of 'lag' on the Galaxy S is a big thing in the Galaxy S forums. But compared to a Archos 101, the Galaxy S merely hesitates a bit, while the Archos frequently has to be resurrected from the dead it seems. There is plenty of room for serious improvement, at this moment it doesn't come close to the performance of a standard Samsung Galaxy S or HTC Desire, especially when swithcing apps or screens, or when something is downloading.
So, looking forward to customizing!
Archos 101 8Gb Froyo 2.2, Z4Root + SetCPU 1000Mhz.
Why would it be so hard to root or create ROMs for this device when Archos, on their website claim that this is all open source and even possible to dual boot?
Possibilities beyond Android™ with the ‘Dual OS’
Just like a PC, the ARCHOS 70 internet tablet can be freely programmed in alternative ways. This gives developers programming options in addition to the applications that can be created for the Android platform. To have total control of your Internet Tablet, ARCHOS has opened up this device, thus allowing creative minds to program their own tablet, or create what could be the tablet of the future.
ARCHOS has decided to « open » its ARCHOS 70 internet tablet by proposing to install and replace the system running Android originally installed on the machine.
Developers and programmers can choose for the operating system running under Linux distribution Ångström.
Developers can install this OS on an ARCHOS 70 internet tablet and join the Linux community which is developing a new interface, new icons, drivers, programs ... dedicated to this platform.
Skilled developers and programmers can now choose to switch over to a true standard Linux environment as offered by the Ångström Linux distribution. Developers can put this on their ARCHOS 70 internet tablet devices and join other enthusiasts who are experimenting with various ideas and interfaces based on the Linux operating system.
The difficult part is they compressed the file system with squashfs, which is a read only system.
I'm not too familiar with linux or android os, but I've read people saying that it has to be decompressed before we can have read/write access for root
xShadoWxDrifTx said:
The difficult part is they compressed the file system with squashfs, which is a read only system.
I'm not too familiar with linux or android os, but I've read people saying that it has to be decompressed before we can have read/write access for root
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Click to collapse
There is a workaround for r-only but it's not ready yet. Over at archosfans one of members is trying to remount /system and enable writing, thus providing us with permanent root access. It's work in progress...
zad225: That might require the SDE which I will be released in the next couple days.
Techngro said:
Now that I actually have my A70, I am very pleased with it. It is fast and very responsive.
The real thing that has me excited is that, once this baby gets rooted, it's gonna be so frickin awesome.
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No poster is addressing the big problem with the 101: RAM is limited to 256MB, a huge technical and marketing disaster. My phone has 512MB...!
I have two days to decide whether to return it or not. RAM gets well below 50MB easily, and the tablet gets very slow and laggy. I've uninstalled everything I can think of, and under the best circumstances I get 72MB free, dangerously close to a slowdown...
I love everything else about it, specially the weight and the sound. But right now I'm leaning to a return, because even modding will not overcome the RAM problem.
Can someone technically qualified refute my opinion..? I don't mean "it works fine for me" or "be patient", I mean a technical reason that would eliminate the slower speed and lagginess.
Thank you.
You could add a swap file if you are temp rooted.
Sent from my HTC Legend using XDA App
marclh1992 said:
You could add a swap file if you are temp rooted.
Sent from my HTC Legend using XDA App
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Click to collapse
just searched the gen8 section and I don't find any directions on adding a swap file . does someone have a link to a HOW-TO on that
argie said:
No poster is addressing the big problem with the 101: RAM is limited to 256MB, a huge technical and marketing disaster. My phone has 512MB...!
I have two days to decide whether to return it or not. RAM gets well below 50MB easily, and the tablet gets very slow and laggy. I've uninstalled everything I can think of, and under the best circumstances I get 72MB free, dangerously close to a slowdown...
I love everything else about it, specially the weight and the sound. But right now I'm leaning to a return, because even modding will not overcome the RAM problem.
Can someone technically qualified refute my opinion..? I don't mean "it works fine for me" or "be patient", I mean a technical reason that would eliminate the slower speed and lagginess.
Thank you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry but can you give a technical reason on why 256MB RAM is a huge technical and marketing disaster?
The Motorola Droid has 256MB of RAM and runs Froyo fine including Flash. I am able to get down to 25MB or less with no slow down. So saying that the 256MB of RAM is the root problem is incorrect. Would more memory be nice? Of course it would.
The main reasons people are seeing issues is because of some bugs in the current Archos Froyo implementation. It also appears that JIT is not actually enabled in this first Froyo build either. Both of these items can be fixed with a software update.
Another reason I see is the incorrect use of task killers. People seem to think they need to kill all running programs when in fact that can cause slowdowns, instability, crashes and lockups.
I have also seen user error that causes a lot of issues. Mostly from new to Android people that have no clue what they are doing. They install half baked programs that cause some of the issues mentioned above.
I think if you give it some time then things will become nicer. If your not willing to wait then I'm sure you can pick up a new tablet within the next couple of months that will meet your criteria.
Go to this website for how to use a swap space. It fixed most problems for me.
forum.archosfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=42718
Sent from my HTC Legend using XDA App
Yo, so I installed the windows phone 8 SDK today, only to figure out that most computers in this world will not run this SDK's emulator.
You will need in an i3 or better CPU from intel or equivalent from AMD (aka latest generation) to run the emulator.
You also have to run this emulator on windows 8 x64 (yep, it HAS to be x64, otherwise it won't work). This, by itself, asks for at least 4 GB of RAM to run the system at a decent speed, also forces you to upgrade to windows 8 (i got it for free due to msdn) and to get Visual Studio 12.
This is, in my opinion, a terrible move from microsoft.
Not everybody has CPUs that have all the requirements. In fact, not even all the newest CPUs have this requirement (Second Level Address Translation it is called). This, automatically, makes developers like me either:
get a new PC
Get a windows phone 8 device.
Luckily for me i have a fairly new laptop, which has an i3 CPU capable to run this stupid emulator.
On top of that, there comes the non-backward compatibility from wp8 to wp7.5 apps. Applications compiled for windows phone 8 SDK will not work on Windows phone 7.5, unless you make another project for 7.5, compile it as dll and reference it from your 8 app. This is kinda overkill.
Windows phone 8 will probably bring in a lot of users, but for developers, it is a blow to the head. I bet windows phone 8 submissions will be very, very low in the next 1 to 2 years.
So, is microsoft risking a bit too much with the switch from 7.5 to 8? On top of all the development slaughter, there's the non-upgradable old devices...
Good question , but it's been shockingly quiet in here. One would think that after a new launch the forum would be jumping with activity.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
vetvito said:
Good question , but it's been shockingly quiet in here. One would think that after a new launch the forum would be jumping with activity.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, to be honest, I think XDA isn't a good place for MS/WP anymore and I guess most of them know that. Just look at the front page, not even a single article/news about the Windows (Phone) 8 launch events. It's just android. Even the forum sections for the HTC 8X/S and Samsung ATIV S are missing whereas all the new Google devices have been added shortly after their announcement. So you see, even XDAdev isn't really well after Windows Phone at all.
morpheuszg said:
Well, to be honest, I think XDA isn't a good place for MS/WP anymore ....So you see, even XDAdev isn't really well after Windows Phone at all.
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Click to collapse
so, what forums do wp dev's hang out ?
Are there any lol? I saw about 6 new apps, and one of them (Pandora) won't be out until sometime in 2013!
Sent from my HD7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
MSDN forums for example or prior to launch those who were part of the developer preview program had a closed discussion forum on Microsoft Connect, die to the NDA it was not allowed to discuss the information publicly.
On the CPU requirements - yes it sucks and there are other issues with the Emulator like missing 3d acceleration die to the fact it uses HyperV which does not have that capability. Still I would not suggest for people to develop for any platform without being able to test on a real device. This will be possible even without the Emulator.
I disagree with your assumption that we won't see Apps for WP8. Devs who write software for Windows 8 also need a Windows 8 installation, so people who think of porting those Apps will most likely have the infrastructure in place already. For higher profile the costs of a development machine would not be that problematic and C++ as well as middleware support for many gaming engines will make for a lot easier porting of existing Games from other platforms.
The people for which these changes really suck are student developers lile you and me. Only my Windows tablet currently supports the Emulator (Core i5). But still it is a lot nicer then the situation with the Android Emulator in my experience. The later is running to slow for anything iseful on my Core 2 Quad Desktop so I have to use the device for debugging anyway. Additionally only the WP Emulators have Multi-Touch support so I can test those features without deploying to the device.
Concerning XDAs, it has always been more about hacking and tinkering on the system level then user software development. Given that Android due to it's Open Source nature allows for a lot more in that regard it takes no wonder that there is a lot more going on with those than witj WP. Also market share and number of devoces makes for a difference as well.
vetvito said:
Good question , but it's been shockingly quiet in here. One would think that after a new launch the forum would be jumping with activity.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All in all WP8 announcement was not that good...
also, they didn't release the SDK for us devs in order to build nice apps ready to be distributed for new win8 devices...Making us wait for months like if winphone had killer features hidden..and then it was the same old stuff so... i'm also considering to jump the android ship...
StevieBallz said:
MSDN forums for example or prior to launch those who were part of the developer preview program had a closed discussion forum on Microsoft Connect, die to the NDA it was not allowed to discuss the information publicly.
On the CPU requirements - yes it sucks and there are other issues with the Emulator like missing 3d acceleration die to the fact it uses HyperV which does not have that capability. Still I would not suggest for people to develop for any platform without being able to test on a real device. This will be possible even without the Emulator.
I disagree with your assumption that we won't see Apps for WP8. Devs who write software for Windows 8 also need a Windows 8 installation, so people who think of porting those Apps will most likely have the infrastructure in place already. For higher profile the costs of a development machine would not be that problematic and C++ as well as middleware support for many gaming engines will make for a lot easier porting of existing Games from other platforms.
The people for which these changes really suck are student developers lile you and me. Only my Windows tablet currently supports the Emulator (Core i5). But still it is a lot nicer then the situation with the Android Emulator in my experience. The later is running to slow for anything iseful on my Core 2 Quad Desktop so I have to use the device for debugging anyway. Additionally only the WP Emulators have Multi-Touch support so I can test those features without deploying to the device.
Concerning XDAs, it has always been more about hacking and tinkering on the system level then user software development. Given that Android due to it's Open Source nature allows for a lot more in that regard it takes no wonder that there is a lot more going on with those than witj WP. Also market share and number of devoces makes for a difference as well.
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Click to collapse
ya, I saw that w8 64bit was required to develope at all, and thought wow, why would you limit developers to a brand new unproven ecosystem?
the prehighschool kids are going to be the ones with real innovation, new thinking, and the next Facebook, (I hate fb, but you get the idea) without them, what do you have? Office? really , just Office?
ohgood said:
ya, I saw that w8 64bit was required to develope at all, and thought wow, why would you limit developers to a brand new unproven ecosystem?
the prehighschool kids are going to be the ones with real innovation, new thinking, and the next Facebook, (I hate fb, but you get the idea) without them, what do you have? Office? really , just Office?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
64 bit is likely to not be the big issue here. I haven't seen to many 32 bit Windows 7 machines. The more problematic move is to lock out everyone who is not using Windows 8. Given that students have access to Windows 8, Visual Studio and the Marketplace for free through Dreamspark that does not sound as that big an issue to me.
In the end it seems they had a reason to go with Hyper-V and Windows-8 simply is the only Desktop operating system which has Hyper-V functionality. The biggest problem is that hardware that is older then 2 years does not support the needed virtualization modes.
How the ecosystem argument plays into this I don't really understand but I guess you meant: new OS that has not that big an installed base yet. Well 4 million upgrades over the last 4 days, not counting the people who bought it with new Hardware or downloaded it from MSDN or Dreamspark it seems to go big rather quickly.
The emulator is a crucial part of application development.
I don't think you want to bring in your early app in alpha stages or even earlier than that on your phone, simply because:
a) you don't have it.
b) Your code might cause damage to the phone, especially on things that use hardware components like vibrators, camera, leds and stuff like that. An unleaded exception can wreck havoc on your phone.
c) The emulator is faster.
Yes, you will eventually need a windows phone 8 device before you publish it, but you should be able to develop your apps before you even have one...
The windows 8 issue is not big. The upgrade from win7 costs like 50 bucks. It is really not that much of an effort.
The insane hardware requirements are, however, and most PCs will not have them. From intel's side, only i3, i5 and i7 processors have what they need, and Pentium dual core for sandy bridge won't...
This is the biggest issue here.
ohgood said:
so, what forums do wp dev's hang out ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i'm just a noob, but i think when the devs don't hang out here they hang out nowhere or compared to android extremely rare so that it makes no sense to spend time on...
I wish WP8 RT a good future with Dualboot Android.