Database Users

WTF is going on ?? (Calling for death of Nexus One))

http://newstrendstoday.com/nexus-1-...the-3g-screen-problems-on-the-nexus-one/03117
Some users say they have trouble calibrating the touch screen on the Nexus One, the Google smartphone.
The first steps of Google and their Nexus One on the smartphone market does not seem as peaceful as what the Internet giant could wait. After linkage problems encountered on the 3G network T-Mobile in the United States, some users are pointing the finger at the screen of their device.
Android forums on Google, as stated by our colleagues from Engadget, there are reports of problems calibrating the touch screen One of the Nexus. They would start to feel the phone and he would put it to sleep, then on again to resolve them. Google provides to address these problems, they come from a software bug will be resolved by a patch. If the material is concerned, HTC, manufacturer of the Nexus One, might have to intervene under the warranty.
For its first week of marketing, Nexus One has sold 20 000 copies in the United States. A rather low figure who led Google to drop the $ 100 price of the device.
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http://www.nytimes.com/external/gig...m-should-google-kill-the-nexus-one-60352.html
Google this morning postponed the launch of two Android handsets in China in a clear indication that the company’s rift with Beijing threatens its booming mobile business. Meanwhile, the Nexus One has seen lackluster sales amid widespread complaints of technical glitches. So with Android’s future in China uncertain, and problems mounting with Google’s decision to build and sell the ideal Android phone — the Nexus One – is it too early to wonder whether Google will pull the plug on its flagship phone?
Google indefinitely pushed back the launch of two handsets slated to debut tomorrow from China Unicom, dramatically upping the ante in its high-profile showdown with the Chinese government. As Om noted last week, China accounts for more 638 million wireless users, and handset sales are expected to grow by 21 percent this year alone. And the market could be especially ripe for Android given its support by some key players in the region: members of Google’s Open Handset Alliance include operators China Mobile and China Telecom as well as Huawei and ZTE.
While a governmental crackdown could lead to versions of the open-source OS that are far less integrated with Google’s mobile apps, the escalating conflict means that Google will be unable to control the evolution of Android in China. And it surely closes the door on any potential Chinese sales of the Nexus One — throwing yet another roadblock at the struggling handset.
Google appears to have overreached in launching its own branded handset. The search giant was clearly unprepared to deal with the customer service issues that inevitably arise in the retailing business, and splashy headlines of customer backlash are tarnishing its highly respected brand.
The company has obviously overestimated demand for an “official” Google phone, selling just 20,000 handsets in the first week it was out, and its strategy of competing against its handset and carrier partners has limited upside and risks losing the widespread support that has fueled Android’s growth. It may be unfair to predict doom for a handset that came to market just two weeks ago, but it’s becoming clear that taking on the role of mobile retailer was a mistake for Google. It’s too early to predict that Google will kill the Nexus One, but it’s not too early to wonder whether it should.
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Ive been a techy most of my life. Ive been on nerd bomber and geek forums since 97 followed every bit of Tech I could get my hands on since that time.....I am having a miserable time trying to find another piece of consumer electronic with this many "news sources" hell bent on seeing it fail.
Not windows ME , Not XBOX 1 , Not Nextel , Not Wii....nothing.
Im baffled as to wtf is going on.

I thought I was the only one who noticed all the negative attention google is getting. I freakin love this phone. There is nothing that will make me think this isn't the best phone I've had, ever.

It's not about the quality of the phone

rockky said:
It's not about the quality of the phone
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So what is it ?
Is fanboyism that strong ?
Are people THAT pissed at Google for not giving it away free and saving them from telecoms...or
Are Apple/MS/Palm lining writers pockets ?
Im by no means saying Google isnt having a multitude of problems. On 2 big fronts right now....but the tone of these articles is blatantly biased.

Perhaps people are scared of something different. Google is the punk kid to Apple's primp and proper 'young adult'. They must be heathens.

Huh?
its about Google completely miscalculating the process of selling this product via their site.
Its about Google releasing a product not ready for consumption.
Its about a failed marketing ploy....(ie: a lack of, ...trying to create a mystique and engender a word of mouth wildfire.....backfiring, as the word of mouth has been primarily about the issues with the device.
What does fanboyism have to do with any of this?

Personally, I don't think I would "listen" to a website review and analysis that can't even form a proper sentence. That first article was seriously hard to read, and didn't make sense for about 50% of it.
None-the-less some of the tech community loves to hate the phone. Fanboys, or whatever may have you, they are not being fair or balanced in the coverage. Granted, we are a biased community, but we are also one of the most critical as well. I haven't seen such love for a phone on XDA ever! Usually, we are all sitting around saying we can't wait for it to be properly unlocked so we can flash some crazy cooked ROMs so the phone doesn't suck too bad. Instead, many are wondering whether it is even worth rooting the phone(and eventually flashing custom SPLs) because stock already is so damn good!
Here is the deal, IMO, given that Android is bursting onto the scene right now, and starting to hit that tipping point, just ignore it! By the end of this year, over half the available smartphones on the market will be Android. And that is the real reason for the outcry. There is a lot of money at stake, and many tech publications have owners/sponsors they need to keep happy. Google is not known for being a very profitable advertiser for websites(great for small sites, but big ones make much more money off a true sponsor), and Google doesn't and isn't willing to do that.
But those sites will, given time, have to come around. If they do not, they run the very real risk of allienating their following, and in turn losing out on advertising dollars because they are no longer the hot site. Engadget, and the such, have to keep on top of and out in front of the trendy wave, or they are screwed.

rockky said:
Huh?
its about Google completely miscalculating the process of selling this product via their site.
Its about Google releasing a product not ready for consumption.
Its about a failed marketing ploy....(ie: a lack of, ...trying to create a mystique and engender a word of mouth wildfire.....backfiring, as the word of mouth has been primarily about the issues with the device.
What does fanboyism have to do with any of this?
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I'm not talking about Engadget perse an obviously biased review... im talking about say the average daily return of say a google search of Nexus One which brings predominantly a litany of commentary of.the problems google and.customers are having with the device.
That is NOT good and is NOT fanboyism.

For its first week of marketing, Nexus One has sold 20 000 copies in the United States. A rather low figure who led Google to drop the $ 100 price of the device.
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I'm pretty sure Google only lowered the price for an upgraded plan on T-Mobile because of the network issues that were occurring on their service. That statement from the article is misleading because the original prices are still in place aside from a $100 reduction for upgrading on T-Mobile.
I've also noticed a lot of negative publicity, more so than other things. I think with something this big, there's bound to be more scrutinizing going on than usual. You've got the best hardware spec'd phone releasing on the market, on the newest Android platform (basically ready for mainstream consumption), with Google selling it (of all companies).

On the 20,000 N1's sold.
I dont see Google giving up on the N1.
The day Vodafone sold 50,000 iPhones in Europe, the tech-press was quick to jump on comparisons with the 20k N1 sale figure. This is so wrong, it ain't even funny.
The online sales model is
a. New
b. Untested
c. Unique
On account of #a and #b above, Google would not have pegged a very large demand figure for the first month of the N1. The strategy they've adopted will take time to settle in, and I'm sure they're prepared to do that. The N1, as they've repeatedly stated, is the -first- in what will be a long series of phones, and the N1 online sales figure will be viewed as a test case by Google, not as an indictment of the model's success/failure.
Agreed, Google has not hyped up the N1 as much as they ought to have done. As others have pointed out before, the Moto Droid's marketing campaign has done much more for Android than the N1's launch has done, and for that, Google alone is to blame. Forget comparisons to phones of a fruity nature, the N1's launch and subsequent marketing is disappointing even against other Android devices.
Here's something for the tech-press to chew on though.
What would've happened, had Google launched this (admittedly) superphone for $179 in brick-and-mortar stores, whether their own or in T-Mobile's and other networks' stores? What would the number have been then?

I don't see where you're getting the idea that everybody is hell bent on seeing the Nexus One fail.
I've had "nexus one" in the news and weather widget since day one, so I get just about anything with those two words in it as a news article. Yes, there are a few iPhone fan boy web sites out there that just wont admit the N1 is a great phone. But by and large, after the first week, and after other writers have had time to spend with the N1, they always like it, and a few have even dumped their iPhones for it.
The rest (and vast majority) of the articles out there are pointing out Google's major miscalculations with regards to the launch, shipping, and especially support of the Nexus One. They just weren't ready.
Now, since Google and the Nexus One are getting SO much press attention, any little problem the phone encounters, whether it be HTC's fault, Tmo's, or Googles, is getting sent out on BLAST.
It's Google that screwed up. Not the Nexus One. And nobody is calling for it's death, save for a couple loser fan boys.

From what ive seen and heard (like my tech podcasts) lots of people are 'reviewing' the phone with out actually getting their hands on it to test it for themselves. There does appear to be a significant amount of bad press for what seems like no real reason.
Oddly on the GDGT podcast they talk about the nexus one, the first 30seconds of the review they talk about how awesome the phone is and its the best thing they have used since the iphone, and then they spend the remaining 30minutes of the review highlighting all of its faults?! Odd!
Nevermind, think its probably just die hard iphone fan bois coming up with negative press. bah.

There is definitely some biased reviews out there from people obviously bent on not showing the whole truth or just completely stating b.s.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/187147/what_google_must_learn_from_its_nexus_one_troubles.html
When the Nexus One was announced, I was disappointed, since there were just a few improvements over existing Android devices. The fact that Google was selling the device directly over its Web site seemed to be much ado about nothing, given that buyers had to sign a T-Mobile contract to use it. Plus, it's not as if Web sales is a new idea.
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Didn't know buyers had to sign a contract to use the phone. That's interesting.

This is the best phone i ever had. My friends with iphones are shocked by how good it is. Iphone become a history on nexus release. Paid reviews will be popping everywhere against Nexus one.
I never had any problems. Market forces do not want google succeding in delivering a better product than existing technologies of windows and iphone.
You would listen to any lie, and all of them are proved wrong by good people in youtube videos.
Thanks Google and HTC for making such a wonderful phone.

I was suprised how Engadget is attacking it and google...Stopped respecting their news now.

britoso said:
I was suprised how Engadget is attacking it and google...Stopped respecting their news now.
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I haven't visited the engadget site since their review. That review was ridiculous; Especially the browser test. Therefore, I will no longer give them my ad revenue generating views.
htcmagic said:
This is the best phone i ever had. My friends with iphones are shocked by how good it is. Iphone become a history on nexus release. Paid reviews will be popping everywhere against Nexus one.
I never had any problems. Market forces do not want google succeding in delivering a better product than existing technologies of windows and iphone.
You would listen to any lie, and all of them are proved wrong by good people in youtube videos.
Thanks Google and HTC for making such a wonderful phone.
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This has been my experience also. I've had die-hard apple fans gush over my nexus one. No joke. People see it, ask to play with it, and then they want it. Now, if google would only allow family plan upgrades.... I've had multiple friends who have family plans say that they would order it without hesitation if they could use their upgrades.

britoso said:
I was suprised how Engadget is attacking it and google...Stopped respecting their news now.
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britoso, i thought i was the only one. I was following their coverage of nexus launch and where so ironic and nasty about the phone, i couldn't believe it either. I have unsubscribed from their rss in google reader. They are not worth the read for me.
Aslo lots of people proved them wrong about the browsing speed on youtube compared to iphone.

britoso said:
I was suprised how Engadget is attacking it and google...Stopped respecting their news now.
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You won't understand unless you are experiencing the problems. I am not a Engadget fan at all but this time I am very glad that they covered it and put some pressure to Google. I am really frustrated about the touch screen issue.

I would of had ordered the nexus one the day it came out, but had issues with tmobile. Because no one at tmobile had a clue what was going on, and trying to fix my account, so i could order the phone for a reduced cost is not googles fault its tmobiles! i talked to 11 different people including 2 supervisors. they all are to dumb to look at my paperwork in the system to realize i got an upgrade 12 months prior when i got my g1. the people at tmobile store are to dumb to update the system. oops!!!!
i received the phone 5 days after the inital release, thought it was bs to pay 379, but thats what i paid for the g1 and its half of the hardware in the n1. i took it out of the box, started it up to make sure it worked. then rooted it!!!!
there may be a glitch here or there, which is not a big deal. its a brand new version of android, which no other phones have currently. so obviously there will be a few complaints. but when thousands of people are using a new device, they happen to find a few more problems then a few hundred. its just common sence.
those people that have an issue take a chill pill, this phone has great hardware on it, and has a great operating system. my phone has better hardware on it then some of my friends labtops...... and what did i pay..... 279 compared to what they paid for their labtops....
so regardless of what people say, i am a big fan of android!!!! have been since the day i picked it up and found out it was a linux kernal. thats the reason i bought my g1. but it was laggy, and slow, and didn't have a headphone jack. i had to wait a year for the n1 to come out, but it finally did. so everyone that has an issue with the N1 then go f*** yourself!!!!! ill be waiting happily for android 3.0 to come out!!!!

SANTilt said:
I don't see where you're getting the idea that everybody is hell bent on seeing the Nexus One fail.
I've had "nexus one" in the news and weather widget since day one, so I get just about anything with those two words in it as a news article. Yes, there are a few iPhone fan boy web sites out there that just wont admit the N1 is a great phone. But by and large, after the first week, and after other writers have had time to spend with the N1, they always like it, and a few have even dumped their iPhones for it.
The rest (and vast majority) of the articles out there are pointing out Google's major miscalculations with regards to the launch, shipping, and especially support of the Nexus One. They just weren't ready.
Now, since Google and the Nexus One are getting SO much press attention, any little problem the phone encounters, whether it be HTC's fault, Tmo's, or Googles, is getting sent out on BLAST.
It's Google that screwed up. Not the Nexus One. And nobody is calling for it's death, save for a couple loser fan boys.
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Maybe I need to capitalize the N in nexus one. Because my widget and going online has pointed to almost exclusively negative statements about the N1.
There was an explosion of articles based on Engadgets reviews...there was another explosion after that ridiculous screen test ...then another batch with the 3G issues.
Very few places are givig the N1 a fair shake. Ars technica , Diggnation/Kevin Rose , Leo Laporte being the only ones I can name that seemed either unbiased or admitted any bias.
Engadget , Boygenius ,TechCrunch,PC ,World etc have given some bizarre reviews and baseless feedback.

Contacting google/building support for ALSO selling unbranded.

Seems to me like Google could sell both with the carriers in a traditional fashion and also sell unlocked/unbranded phones online. Same as SE selling its X10 via carrier but also selling unbranded in Sony Style. Nokia and others have done this as well.
With this thought in mind I was wandering around Google trying to find a good spot to leave such a suggestion and couldn't find anything which didn't say to me, "message going to don't care and I would be totally wasting my time". So the first question is, where would be the best place to start bending Googles ear? What do you think of finding what seems to be the most likely place and trying to get folks from the various android forums to go there and put in their two cents? While many folks might not have been interested in the N1 that doesn't mean they don't want to see an N2 come along that might be a form factor that suits their needs better. Im spitballing here guys, throw down with your opinions. I say lets be heard!
Those of you who are not getting my concept have no fear, Paul will be along to say it better than I did soon enough.

Google jumped feet first into the the retail business. Before this I don't think they ever sold a tangible product(?) in retail.
From the movements they are making it seems they don't want to be retailers.

I think the biggest problem is having customer support and technical support. Since apple and Sony have their own support departments its easy for them to sell online.

Google jumped in with both feet, true. Technical support has largely been hashed out, lesson learned. I think Google wanted in and I think they still want in. The trick is trying to show them they can have their cake and eat it too. Making the effort costs us nothing, not making the effort makes us the sheep that the carriers bring to the slaughter.

krabman said:
Google jumped in with both feet, true. Technical support has largely been hashed out, lesson learned. I think Google wanted in and I think they still want in. The trick is trying to show them they can have their cake and eat it too. Making the effort costs us nothing, not making the effort makes us the sheep that the carriers bring to the slaughter.
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How about an online petition and a never ending email campaign to Google pointing them to the petition?

Thats kinda the concept that I am thinking of attn1 but I don't know how to go about it. Google has built a sales apperatus, its built a store front, its built a support mechanism, all we are asking is that they not shelve those tools that are already in place as they venture forth on a new direction. They are paid for, they work, the support themselves. There is no reason I can think of off hand why they cannot do this and several benefits to Google. But first you have to get their ear...

attn1 said:
How about an online petition and a never ending email campaign to Google pointing them to the petition?
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This. Start it and it shall be signed.

Technically they have done this before.
The T-Mobile G1 was also sold by Google as the ADP1 (Android Developer Phone 1) and the Magic/myTouch 3G was sold by them as the ADP2. But, you had to register as an Android developer to order one.
Originally I thought the Nexus One was simply going to be the ADP3 with a more open ordering process. The fact that they are handing out free N1s at developer conferences and to their employees indicates it will continue to have that status whether or not it continues to have "direct to consumer sales" status.
Since they still need ways for developers to get unlocked phones for new development they will likely continue to sell the N1 in some capacity even if/when they hand over standard sales to the carriers. It may be that you would need to register as a developer, though, but I doubt they would stop selling it entirely as then the Magic/ADP2 would be the most up to date phone that they provide their developers and that isn't a great situation...

Onward to Nexus 2 ((article about N1 no actual info on N2))

http://asia.cnet.com/blogs/rehashplus/post.htm?id=63019568&scid=rvhm_ms
Gen 3 (Nexus One) came out mere weeks after the Milestone, using state-of-the-art technology not proven in the market. A shock to Motorola, certainly a shock to me, and I bought the Nexus One immediately when the specs were confirmed. How did it leapfrog Motorola's efforts? Probably because whoever made the Nexus One did not need to justify anything, project profits, etc. The only thing they needed to do was to make the Nexus COOL and to make it the bee's knees.
By all estimates, the Nexus One was a failure. Just because it had small sales numbers, limited distribution by telcos. But anyone who wanted it can buy it. For most people outside of the US, it's expensive like hell because it has none of the telco subsidy bull****. But it has no locks, no telco overlays, no badly customized custom user interfaces, it's easy to root, to hack, and to make it the phone of your dreams. It's the best handset I ever owned. Ever. Speaking of today, of course.
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The bolded really hit home.
I sincerely hope Google doesnt flat out give up on it. That they do have a sequel that will be available to all carriers. Nexus One pushed everything forward and back to back with the Droid legitimized Android as a premiere (and to many) THE premiere mobile OS. The amount of powerful handsets that have been dropped the last 7 months is ridiculous and only due to Android. Otherwise we'd still be stuck on Winmo 6.5 , an iPhone with no retina display or multitasking ,or a dead WebOS. Regardless of sales figures the Nexus one was the most important handset to drop this year.
Sadly because of those low sales figures Im not sure if we'll actually see a pure Google Nexus 2.
All these phones without colored trackballs have me worried too =-O.
p.s leave some comments...I tend to support bloggers/writers who can write without gross bias. This guy also happens to love N1.

Generally agree, except for the part of "By all estimates, the Nexus One was a failure". Low sales number don't equal failure. Look at PS3, they just broke even on that thing, and they sold A LOT.
Besides, google never planned to make money on phones. They are not htc. They don't make phones. They plan to make money on the OS and partnerships with manufacturers who want to run Android (+ google ads).
People forget that Nexus One, although branded as google phone, is actually an htc headset.

DarkDvr said:
Generally agree, except for the part of "By all estimates, the Nexus One was a failure". Low sales number don't equal failure. Look at PS3, they just broke even on that thing, and they sold A LOT.
Besides, google never planned to make money on phones. They are not htc. They don't make phones. They plan to make money on the OS and partnerships with manufacturers who want to run Android (+ google ads).
People forget that Nexus One, although branded as google phone, is actually an htc headset.
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It didnt shake anything up.
Most people have no Fn clue wth a Nexus One is.
Sales figures were laughable.
Thats what people will measure it by.
As a piece of technology it was massive success. Considering the BRUTAL bias and flat out bogus reviews it received , the 3g, wonky soft buttons , and MT problems you'd expect it to be a total dud.It was anything but.

xManMythLegend said:
It didnt shake anything up.
Most people have no Fn clue wth a Nexus One is.
Sales figures were laughable.
Thats what people will measure it by.
As a piece of technology it was massive success. Considering the BRUTAL bias and flat out bogus reviews it received , the 3g, wonky soft buttons , and MT problems you'd expect it to be a total dud.It was anything but.
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True, but I think we have to understand that goal was never to sell millions of Nexus Ones and make tons of money. N1 is kinda like a Android demo phone. Something that manufacturers and interested developers/users can try and see where Android is going, what it really is. That's the real goal, not to sell it as a regular money-making gizmo.
I think in that sense, N1 was a huge success. Think about it. Manuf. and developers tried it out, and loved it. Proof is that immediately manufacturers like htc, motorola and samsung (not even mentioning logitech, gm, cisco...) jumped on the bandwagon, seeing the potential in it.
I think the real hardware "money makers" were always intended to be Evo 4G, Galaxy S, some lower-end android phones that AT&T is launching.. Those are your standard gizmos whos success you can measure in sales numbers.
G1 -> Nexus One are special, their success is not to be measured in sales, but in exposure and future developments.

I have yet to handle any phone that feels as solid and expensive as my Nexus One.

I'd love to get my hands on a Nexus Two.
It doesn't even have spec rumors yet and I want it. I love the openness of it and that it's the one that gets Googles focus. Love it!

There won't be a nexus two.
Google is sitting on a pile of Nexus Ones and is trying to unload them anyway they can. It's painfully obvious retail hardware is not a business they want to further pursue.
Your best bet for another phone as open as the nexus will be the next developer phone, or something from Nokia's brand.

Google, give me a Nexus Two with the following:
4.3" Screen (720p-ish resolution)
Next-gen processor (hummingbird? or one of those duel-core cpus?)
768+ MB of RAM/ROM
Front Facing camera (VGA is fine)
8+ MP regular camera
Optical trackpad (see blackberry)
Hardware back, menu, home, search buttons
HDMI out
8GB internal storage (16 would be nice too )

Google have never actually said that the Nexus One was a failure right? They said that the Web Store is a failure as it didn't meet their expectations. The Nexus One not selling so many units is because it was only available on a failing web store. When Google announced they were closing the web store they said that Nexus One's will be sold in retail stores, they didn't say they are discontinuing the product like how Microsoft have with the Kin phones.
And Google have said that the reason the Nexus One didn't appear on Verizon and Sprint was because Google changed the sales model early on (choosing to close the web store but announcing it much later) and as the networks were going to get equivalent phones to the Nexus One, Google and the networks decided to pull out. I reckon the reason why the Nexus One was delayed so much on the Vodafone network was due to the fact that Google were changing their sales model.
However the Nexus One did achieve a goal of pushing manufactures to produce high quality phones. The Nexus One specs are now like a minimum for all future smartphones.

The nexus one was being produced at the same time as all the other HTC lineup, it's actually the lower end of HTC current snapdragon line.
Had google not bid on this specific model, we would proably be seeing this exact phone Labeled T-Mobile MyTouch HD or something without and unlockable bootloader.

do you guys honestly think google expected to sell millions of nexus one's when all they did is throw up a few ads on a few websites? they didnt do any primetime TV ads, nothing. you honestly think that google didnt do that on purpose? no way would they have expected huge sales with that kind of marketing platform (or lack thereof). they wanted a develper phone, and that's what they got. of course if they bought primetime TV space like apple does, then they would have sold a lot more. i dont see how people fail to see this logic.

JCopernicus said:
There won't be a nexus two.
Google is sitting on a pile of Nexus Ones and is trying to unload them anyway they can. It's painfully obvious retail hardware is not a business they want to further pursue.
Your best bet for another phone as open as the nexus will be the next developer phone, or something from Nokia's brand.
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If that'd be true in any way, u'd see discounted prices and specials for N1.
Do you? Cause if you find one, I'd love to be proven wrong (my friend wants nothing but N1 now).

DarkDvr said:
If that'd be true in any way, u'd see discounted prices and specials for N1.
Do you? Cause if you find one, I'd love to be proven wrong (my friend wants nothing but N1 now).
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They still have an investment in them, they're not going to willingly lose that money.
My comment was directed at their current strategy of selling them in "retail stores all over the place".

RogerPodacter said:
do you guys honestly think google expected to sell millions of nexus one's when all they did is throw up a few ads on a few websites? they didnt do any primetime TV ads, nothing. you honestly think that google didnt do that on purpose? no way would they have expected huge sales with that kind of marketing platform (or lack thereof). they wanted a develper phone, and that's what they got. of course if they bought primetime TV space like apple does, then they would have sold a lot more. i dont see how people fail to see this logic.
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EXACTLY. You guys are jumping on a bandwagon of "N1 was a fail". It's completely wrong. Stop believing stuff that some trolls write on a forum.
It's extremelly shallow to think that all things that are released are released to sell as many as possible. Or that pure "items sold" would give you an idea of how successfull item was.
There are many, many cases of special edition cars, stereo systems, you name it. Some items are designed and sold for a different purpose. To increase awareness, to hit a small portion of the market. To create a sense of "rarity" or "urgency", etc etc.
Want proof? Ok. Remember the GMAIL model. First year or two you could ONLY get gmail by INVITE. If you didn't know, google wrote a book on "Virus Marketing". Creating a sense of rareness, coolness and priviledge towards a certain item. It works, they're not idiots. They are doing the same thing with N1. Just enough marketing to sell them, but not enough to sate people with the idea. Think about it.
In a way, you're holding a rare (or soon to be), barely advertised, special edition Android 2 phone. Don't complain that not everyone bought one. It was never meant to be.
Besides.. don't be naive. If google (one of biggest web advertisers in the world) would want to REALLY advertise their phone... Trust you me, they'd advertise the BEJESUS out of it. They'd sell millions worldwide. That's just not their goal.

JCopernicus said:
They still have an investment in them, they're not going to willingly lose that money.
My comment was directed at their current strategy of selling them in "retail stores all over the place".
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Changing from online sales to store sales does NOT equal failed product.
Even if google indeed got dissapointed with online sale model, it doesn't mean that N1 is an epic fail, as quote from first post states.

I never said it was a failed product, they've already turned a profit on it.
Changing your primary business model shows your product wasn't a great success.

JCopernicus said:
I never said it was a failed product, they've already turned a profit on it.
Changing your primary business model shows your product wasn't a great success.
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Correct but the product that wasn't a success is the Google Web Store, not the Nexus One.
The Web Store failed, the Nexus One didn't.

Sarg92 said:
Correct but the product that wasn't a success is the Google Web Store, not the Nexus One.
The Web Store failed, the Nexus One didn't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is more in general, and not directed specifically at you, Sarg, but at some of the similar comments along the same lines.
I'm pretty sure Google was aware of these things prior to selling the N1:
1 - Most people in the states buy phones subsidized from the carriers
2 - Most people don't want to shell out almost $600 for a phone
3 - The economy kinda sucks
Why would they proceed, knowing the above, if they intended the N1 to be as successful as the iPhone?
Perhaps, just perhaps, Google is aware of a small but serious community of people who love technology and want the latest and greatest. Perhaps Google's goal all along was to target a select few and push the development of the OS, the apps, and the general market for Android devices.
To me, the N1 is really like phase 2 or 3 in a lengthy strategic plan that is, in all aspects, going rather well.
1 - Secure an OS (Purchase of Android)
2 - Develop and market and OS (Release of G1)
3 - Grow the base
a - Advertise Android​b - Put out more Android devices​c - Release a killer device to spur OS, app, and marketshare development​4 - Drop more serious Android devices (and we're seeing a ton now)
5 - World domination
The indent feature on 3a, b, and c didn't work quite like planned, but c'est la vie. You get the idea.

th0r615 said:
Google, give me a Nexus Two with the following:
4.3" Screen (720p-ish resolution)
Next-gen processor (hummingbird? or one of those duel-core cpus?)
768+ MB of RAM/ROM
Front Facing camera (VGA is fine)
8+ MP regular camera
Optical trackpad (see blackberry)
Hardware back, menu, home, search buttons
HDMI out
8GB internal storage (16 would be nice too )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I could imagine with Gingerbread coming in October, and the fact that the Dev 2 phone (myTouch) doesn't fit any of the requirements, that we'll see a pretty updated Dev 3 phone designed specifically for Gingerbread.
That's would make logical sense to me anyway.

I wish nexus one had more storage (4GB or higher) because it can't rely on memory card as it may fail. In addition, more storage can let me store more music on the phone itself and free the memory card for video.
Generally I am happy with nexus one and I think the migration from WM is a right decision.

Why Do Phone Manufacturers Make so Many Models?

Why do manufacturers pump out so many phones, with none making a real name for themselves? It seems like if HTC released maybe three phones, and every network could have them, they would get some momentum, and a franchise product; a "Name" for themselves. Because no manufacturer does this, I don't think there will ever be an Android to stand up sales wise with the iPhone.
Imo, back in June, HTC should have used the Evo name and ran with it:
Evo
Evo Compact (the Incredible)
Evo Shift
Then once a year or even bi-yearly, the whole line is updated for all carriers with sequential numbers added to the end, ala apple. Does this not seem like a better model? It must not be I assume, because it's not what is being done... but I feel like with the Evo and Incredible being such great phones they would really gain significant traction had they had similar names, and been available on all networks... Instead there is Evo, Incredible, Atria, Thunderbolt, Pyramid, etc. Really confusing.

well..
verizon is trying that with the "droid" name... notice how many have that? they have put a lot of branding to that brandname... "droid"
TMobile has the brand "mytouch"
rumor is ..
sprint will work with the "EVO" branding. EVO and EVO Shift.

Yeah, thats true, and I guess I might would add the shift to my above lineup, so they have a keyboard model... but what I meant, and i just realized I didn't make it obvious in my post was, why do they send basically the same phone with a slightly altered design and different name to different carriers, as opposed to releasing one line up to all?
Edit: So from rereading what you said, it seems like the carrier has a big say in what the name of the phone is? Or is it up to the manufacturer?

i would guess.. that the carriers have a large say in the names.
why would they make a few changes? again this is my guess.
it is a marketing thing... for PRICE specials....
if all 4 carriers had the exact same phone... then they loose some "identity". think of Yukon, Suburban, Escalade, Tahoe.
also..if one carrier has one on sale then the others will have to match the price. If not then the customers might feel a little cheated.
if different name or slight look change, the no longer have to match the price. Most dont know that they are the same; again look at the SUV example i gave.
Think about when Walmart has a Samsung LCD tv on sale.. it is model XY2100. Best Buy has the same samsung LCD XY2100B. they have the exact same specs, but the Best Buy has a chrome panel. Sorry no price match.

I 2nd this big time.
I'm in complete agreement with this OP, and in fact was thinking the exact same thing the other day.
Android has such a confusing and fragmented ecosystem that's it's not funny. I believe this is a result of the "young & wild" thinking behind the business model of the original Open Handset Alliance that Google helped form during Anrdroid's inception. Google came forth with a set of rules, but were perhaps a little too loose on their requirements. They made a set of hardware parameters that Android phones "should" utilize. And in a desperate attempt to become relevant during the iphone craze of the last few years, said "have at it, go build some Androids".
I understand the thinking behind such a model, as not everyone needs, or can afford a high end device i.e., Evo, Incredible, Droid X etc. Some people want to spend $100 or less and have a data enabled phone without giant touch screens, and 5+ MP camera functions. They just want to text, and download ringtones etc, as this is economically viable.
This model has some major pitfalls however, being that; 1) With marketing ploys like Verizon's "Droid", & 2) A new low end Android phone coming out every month -
Android as a whole becomes more and more anonymous and confusing to the average consumer. A lot of people are already walking around asking, "What the hell is Android anyway?" They know they want a smart phone, or maybe even the ubiquitous iPhone like all of their friends and family have... They hear about Android, and how cool and open it is, then go to purchase one from ATT, Sprint, Verizon, US Cellular, Tmobile, Etc... WTF, who to go with, and now, which phone! Wait, what do you mean I can only get the Galaxy Captivate on ATT? Why can I only get the Evo on Sprint, and the G2 on TMO?
Not a very fluid purchase, and then to find out that your precious phone won't be receiving the latest OS updates becomes the nail in the coffin.
This is the biggest thing I've noticed about Android since purchasing my Evo in June. If I didn't have some technical know how, and the support of XDA, my Evo would be near obsolete already. However, I am not the "average" consumer, I love to hack things. Most people want a good phone that will last a year or two, and not have to feel buyer's remorse every few months when a better and faster device hits the shelves.
You could make the same argument about Apple devices with their yearly refresh, and most technology for that matter but I feel the impact of this phenomenon may be greatest with Android... It's almost as if the marketing gurus at all the big telco's want to cram as much of this stuff out into the public, before we realize what's going on, and don't want it anymore.
I love Android, and my Evo is a good phone (not great), but I clearly see behind their marketing fluff, and their poorly disguised ecosystem if you can call it that.
Don't even get me started on the failure that is the Android Market.... Ugh...
What a messy, clusterf¨©k. An unorganized, unregulated, bloated piece of $Free.99 garbage. Google seems to actually encourage "free w/ads" apps over developers making GOOD apps, and getting paid for them!
Not to mention the lack of security, repetition, and licensing infringement that runs rampant throughout. This may seem off topic, but it all ties in to the lack of standardization that plagues Google, and Android as a whole.
If I were Google's CEO, I would clamp down fast in a clear and concise manner with Motorola, HTC and LG etc, and call for better hardware standardization, less marketing fluff, and actually give Devs a reason to want to get involved with the Android market. One way of doing this would be to stop selling old hardware (read, crappy) repackaged in a new phone.
Granted, Android sales are huge right now, but if they stay on this rocky path, the Big G may soon find themselves in a sales plateau, if not on their way to a canyon. They set out to be different, which is good, but sometimes different ends up being strange.

to cater to everyones needs

Most people I know usually refer HTC brand as the Cadillac of phones.
And @Mitch...like apple dont have 1000's of pointless and useless apps and without a option to refund.

Touche' Phatman,
I wasn't trying to rant or complain, so sorry if I did. I've had a mixed experience with my phone, (and it shows.)

Touch>Touch Pro>Touch Pro 2
Sent From My HTC Evo 4G On The Now Network From Sprint Using Tapatalk Pro!

Originally Posted by p3droid

This was posted by p3droid on mydroidworld - many of us know him, or have at least heard of him. He knows what hes talking about, and this info is somewhat disturbing. This is just a copy/paste of his OP.
Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers
Background
​I don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water.
I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones.
Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word.
This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do.
One Shoe Falls​
Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Motorola[/FONT][/FONT] working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Google[/FONT][/FONT] through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done.
During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November.
The Other Shoe Falls​
Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear?1. New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging.
2.Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]HTC [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]devices[/FONT][/FONT])
3. The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks.​I think I posted my first angry message and [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]tweet[/FONT][/FONT] about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats.
Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new?1. Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]program[/FONT][/FONT] that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids.
2. Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features:
a. one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether)
b. a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted.
c. security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones.​The Rubber Meets the Road​
So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression.
Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs.
This is what I have heard:1. The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version.
2. More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.1. What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information.​3. In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data).
4. Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]applications[/FONT][/FONT] can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want)
5. Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program.
6. The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S).​The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges.
What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers.
So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - as we know it - is living on borrowed time.
In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings:
I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.
Disclaimers:
I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs.
This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. *
I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers. "

**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.

Just thought of a potential solution. We could have someone develop a program which accepts these apps and finds whatever sort of signature the carriers are checking for. It can keep it on our phone and ping back to the carriers when queried.
Just a rough idea. But I know there are people far more intelligent than me that can get this done. Or perhaps something more ingenious. I have faith. It will be a nuisance but if we support our strongest devs we will get through this until the carriers piss the **** off.

Isn't Google throwing out the baby with the bathwater here? If the main objective of the carriers is to prevent unauthorized tethering, isn't there a way to do that without blocking root access?

bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is my gut reaction as well. However...... Having spoken with a friend and engineer in the industry (I cannot say her name so take this quote with as much salt as needed) it was explained to me like this.
" Most cell carrier's infastructure are having a tough time dealing with the current customer load as it is. In fact, if you look at events where the influx of people can shut down networks such as AT&T ( the South by South West music fest in Austin TX for example) the cell carries are currently not too worried about losing, what they believe to be, a few customers.
Especially when you figure in the fact that you modding your phone and placing it on thier network is looked upon as you violating their contract. And as it was YOU who violated the contract in thier eyes, the cell carrier can continue charging you for your contract as well as making you purchase an "approved replacement handset"
I am not sure if this is truly the outlook of the carriers or simply the way one employee understands the situation to be......but it wouldnt surprise me if this was exactly how the dev community was viewed by them.
BUT, being around and playing with my phones for a few years now has taught me one thing. There are people on these forums with everybit the brains and know-how as the engineers the carriers employ. And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.

bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.

cegna09 said:
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.

Okay tracking rooted users is new to me. but I thought the rest was normal procedure?
...Root exploit>carrier update (patches root)>new root exploit>new carrier update (patches new root)>newest root exploit...
How is the op any different than current procedure.? Is it just the addition of carriers tracking rooted users that makes this post notable? Because it seems like scaremongering to me. Should I really be that concerned? I already knew att doesn't like me to tether without a plan, and will do what it can to stop me. I dont have any more reason to believe att will stop service to my phone now than before I read this post.

Basically what started all this guys, was theft of services (free tethering) Everyone who has used the free tethering 'hacks' are largely responsible for this movement. Had everyone modded their phones responsibly, and not stolen services from the carriers because they thought they 'had that right' then this would probably not be happening to the extent that it is. I, for one, do not nor have i ever used a free tethering hack. I have unlimited data and use that freely on my phone. I use my pc for web browsing when i have a lot to do online. Below is a quote from a friend of mine on the Atrixforums.com site that is a very good view and quite accurate interpretation of whats happening.
das8nt said:
Yeah, I always knew something like this was going to come down the pipe... it was only a matter of time.
The third part, The Rubber Meets the Road, has been added. I've had some more time to think about this, and I've come to realize a few things. The following is my opinion on the whole subject. It might not be a very popular one, and posting it is not meant to start a large debate or anything, I just wanted to express my feeling on the matter. Please do not take offense to any of the points I'm trying to make; hopefully some of you know me well enough so far to know that I don't mean offense to anyone.
Opinion starts here...
They're right. The manufacturers, the carriers... they're right. We may not like it, but in the end they both have the full say in what happens. I'll give a few examples in a moment as to why I see it this way, but first I need to let you know where I'm coming from. I have a rooted phone; it's not my first rooted phone. I have tethered; though not often or very much at all, but I have tethered without a tethering plan on my account. I have installed ROMs, custom kernels, MODs, hacks... you name it, I've done it. I enjoy it if only because I can. Did I do it because it was needed? In some circumstances, I might argue, "yes;" in others, not in the slightest... it was just fun. The point to this being is that I have done most of everything that is being discussed in the Food For Thought post; and I've done it because I wanted to.
That brings me to a first example. You buy a car; a $20k car at that. Say you pay cash for it; it's yours. You don't even have to have full coverage insurance on it if you don't want to (some states.) You bought it as you daily driver, but you want to make some mods to it: aftermarket exhaust, lowering kit, cool-air intake.... and nitrous. You can do all of those things.; there's no one stopping you. What you can't do though, is maintain a factory warranty on your new car if you install those mods. When you alter the build of the car you are losing your right to claim that that car was manufactured improperly since it's no longer in the same state in which it was delivered to you. No big deal, right? Nothing ever goes wrong until the warranty expires anyway, we all know that. So, you take it to a drag track to see what it can do; how fast can it go? How quick can it hit the quarter mile line? You want to be know as the fastest, so you don't hold back... you kick in the nitrous.... but there's a problem. You didn't realize that the car was not meant to take that kind of load the way it was built. You blow your engine. Is the dealership or manufacturer going to warranty that engine? Would you really expect them to?
Second example. The same car you purchased, before you ever take it to the track, you want to drive it.... I mean really drive it; feel the true power and handling on the road. You take it out on the Interstate because that has the highest speed limits. You quickly get it up to to 70 mph, but that's not enough. You need more. You start to push it a little farther; no big deal... law enforcement doesn't usually care if you're only going a few mph over the limit, right? Well, you haven't been caught yet, so why not push it a little more? Before you know it you're at 95 mph and you see blue lights coming up quick behind you. Is that office going to let you off the hook because you own the car, have it modded and you feel you can do what you want with it? Would you expect them to?
Yes, we buy the phones. Yes, we own them. Yes, we can mod them how ever we can. What we can't do, though, is agree to a service contract and expect the provider of that contract to allow us to ignore their rules and exploit their services to the point that it costs them money. They are a business. They are not in the business for giving away free service, or replace products because the end user did not use them as intended; if they were they would not be in business very long. The carrier has the right to charge what they do, whether we like it or not. We, as users, have the right to find service elsewhere (most of us) or do with out. We agree to their terms when we allow them to provide us service. You do not have to sign a contract to agree to their terms; activating your phone on their network makes the agreement for you. Manufacturers have the right to lock their phones down, after all, they manufacture them. They are not in business to provide two or three phones for the price of one just because we broke the first couple trying to make them do things they were not intended to do. Again, if they were then they wouldn't be in business very long. If we do not like their practices we can buy from others.
I guess what it all boils down to in my mind is that if modding and hacking had been used the right way, we, the modding community and it's followers, might not have this situation coming down on us. If we did it just to customize our phones the way we want them, I'm sure they would have allowed that and worked with us. Since the opposite has been true for the most part, it surprises me in no way that this is about to happen. Users have been 'jailbreaking' and 'rooting' their phones for years, with a vast majority of them being used to circumvent the rules. So, the rules are about to change... like it or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

bongd said:
I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
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The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.

cegna09 said:
The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
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I'm sure there are a slew of celebrity lawyers on speed dial, and I know that the Apple jailbreaking case will be strongly referenced if there is a class action lawsuit.
I also recognize and appreciate the circumstances regarding closing and finding exploits. It's always a game of cat and mouse. And it sucks having to find exploits and holes. Sometimes it's easy but sometimes it's extremely tough. I'm hoping it's not the latter.
In any event, I'm going to hold out. I know that there'll be a work around or at least a ton of backlash. You bring up a good point that it's a very small percentage of users who root. But that small percentage is virtually all made up of power users. While we're small in numbers, we're more intelligent than the tweenies who just get Androids for texting and Facebook.
I know that petitions and things like that normally don't get done (I never bothered with the bootloader petition for example) but I know that more constructive and intelligent users will chime in with glorious ideas to keep this **** at bay. I sincerely hope it was a late April fools day joke or something. I don't mind Google data mining and harvesting all my consumer logistics as long as they don't clamp down on my phone. Win win situation. I don't mind their parasitic or insidious intentions at all.

kdspiv said:
And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
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Except Motorola's bootloaders.

jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).

RacecarBMW said:
Except Motorola's bootloaders.
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It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?

Kueller said:
It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
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If only someone was willing to risk their job

phobos512 said:
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
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If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.

ok i can sorta understand them wanting to stop free tethering, but why root in general, some people like adding custome roms, or tweaking themes to make their phone that THEY purchased look the way they want it to. I really don't use tether, but locking down root, that's just ridiculous...smh

No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
jgc121 said:
If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
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Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

phobos512 said:
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
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I too have been modding vehicles for nearly 15 yrs now, I am an ASE certified technician with EPA certifications, and an Associates Degree in Business Management as well. (Feel free to pm me for proof) I am well aware of this act and the laws. You are missing the point of the previous posts.
A manufacturers warranty would never cover a blown engine due to N20 use.... it just wont. Its intended to cover the engine as it was from the factory. Any changes to the factory setup (within certain limits) are ok. Something like N20 - thats a deal breaker.
As i said before - the previous posts are not MY opinions.... just information i was passing along.

Not sure about that whole Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act..... didn't feel like reading up on it.... but in regards to the whole thing with AT&T and potentially other carriers shutting off all form of cell service to a person with a rooted/jailbroken phone by way of discovery with a special code in the software.... it won't happen unless they're using it in an illegal way (as in using a free tethering workaround, and abusing it to the point that it's easily distinguished that something fishy is going on).... plain and simple. As i mentioned in the other thread with the exact same article linked to in the Atrix forums (one of the other recent threads), the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) was ammended in July 2010, and one of those ammendments was that jailbreaking/rooting a mobile phone to install unauthorized or unapproved applications on the phone is legal.
So.... in regards to the earlier comment someone made laughing at the idea of a "revolt"..... if AT&T starts shutting off service to people who rooted/jailbroke their phone for the sole purpose of either installing a modified ROM or allowing further customisation of the OS than the non-rooted/jailbroke device will allow, then yes, there WOULD be a revolt. That revolt would take the form of... what i believe would fall under a class-action lawsuit. If they can't prove that the person who's service they cut off was using their rooted/jailbroken device in a way that was hindering their service.... which would mostly be the free tethering workarounds and some of those morons downloading quite a few gigabytes of data in a month..... then they would technically be breaking federal law by doing so.