Related
So as we all know soon we will have the files to access nvflash. This for one will hopefully allow us to install any OS we want.
Here is a guide to flashing ubuntu through nvflash onto a tegra 2 device:
http://tegradeveloper.nvidia.com/tegra/forum/workaround-run-ubuntu-now
Now lets hope once the nvflash tools get released in the coming days we will be able to do this.
You're my hero men !!!!
I love you
very nice, ubuntu with unity desktop would be great on tf
xufuchang said:
very nice, ubuntu with unity desktop would be great on tf
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Definitely
Asus would dominate the tablet market with this due to the dock that makes it into a possible real pc now. Did asus give any indication on releasing tools for nvflash?
Will dual-boot be possible, too?
Otherwise that would be nothing for me, cause for multimedia Android is much better and I have a netbook.
cowballz69 said:
Asus would dominate the tablet market with this due to the dock that makes it into a possible real pc now. Did asus give any indication on releasing tools for nvflash?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RayMan and bumblebee already got tools set up, and they're releasing soon.
Will dual-boot be possible, too?
Otherwise that would be nothing for me, cause for multimedia Android is much better and I have a netbook.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's been done on other Android devices so I don't see why not.
Ubuntu on this.....I am salvatating already....ooooooohhhhhh yea....this would definely rock my world
seshmaru said:
It's been done on other Android devices so I don't see why not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would be amazing and probably with the dock one of the best devices ever!
When you really think about it.....Android IS a variant of linux.
Digiguest said:
When you really think about it.....Android IS a variant of linux.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the same as saying OSX is a variant of Unix.
Android borrows the Linux kernel, but aside from that the user interface and feature set is completely different from the typical desktop environments like Gnome and KDE in other Linux distributions. If Android was actually able to provide anywhere close to the same capabilities as a desktop Linux distribution, people wouldn't be asking for a way to install Ubuntu instead.
earlyberd said:
That's the same as saying OSX is a variant of Unix.
Android borrows the Linux kernel, but aside from that the user interface and feature set is completely different from the typical desktop environments like Gnome and KDE in other Linux distributions. If Android was actually able to provide anywhere close to the same capabilities as a desktop Linux distribution, people wouldn't be asking for a way to install Ubuntu instead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"Linux" is the kernel, while Ubuntu, Android, Fedora is the distribution in full. But those are all powered by Linux... and btw OSX is Unix, since XNU (the kernel, funny enough it's open source) is certified as such.
Clearly if you cripple the potential of the platform with an interface and toolset suited for mobile use like Android or iOS, you lose some features and gain usability. A tradeoff most are happy with
Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk
AlexTheStampede said:
"Linux" is the kernel, while Ubuntu, Android, Fedora is the distribution in full. But those are all powered by Linux... and btw OSX is Unix, since XNU (the kernel, funny enough it's open source) is certified as such.
Clearly if you cripple the potential of the platform with an interface and toolset suited for mobile use like Android or iOS, you lose some features and gain usability. A tradeoff most are happy with
Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Linux kernel that actually makes it into the final builds of Android is not the same kernel that you would find in desktop and server distributions. Mainly, it is missing the X Window system and doesn't support all of the GNU libraries, and has tons of other Android-specific additions and architecture changes for the sake of security and interoperability with certain mobile device standards. You can't just throw together the Android-ified Linux kernel with any desktop environment of your choosing like you can with the actual Linux kernel that ships with Ubuntu and Fedora. Furthermore, the changes that Google does make to the kernel do not get included into the mainstream kernel, and that fork has existed for quite some time. That is why Android is Linux-based, and not actually a Linux distribution.
ive had that page bookmarked since the week before i got my tab xD
Linux is just the kernel. Ubuntu, fedora etc are distributions with everything else needed to make the OS work.
earlyberd said:
The Linux kernel that actually makes it into the final builds of Android is not the same kernel that you would find in desktop and server distributions. Mainly, it is missing the X Window system and doesn't support all of the GNU libraries, and has tons of other Android-specific additions and architecture changes for the sake of security and interoperability with certain mobile device standards. You can't just throw together the Android-ified Linux kernel with any desktop environment of your choosing like you can with the actual Linux kernel that ships with Ubuntu and Fedora. Furthermore, the changes that Google does make to the kernel do not get included into the mainstream kernel, and that fork has existed for quite some time. That is why Android is Linux-based, and not actually a Linux distribution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
<pedantic>
Pretty sure the Linux kernel proper does not come with X-Windows or GNU libraries (although it does rely heavily on the GNU toolkit, hence GNU's insistence that it be called GNU/Linux - http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html)
</pedantic>
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using XDA Premium App
jhanford said:
<pedantic>
Pretty sure the Linux kernel proper does not come with X-Windows or GNU libraries (although it does rely heavily on the GNU toolkit, hence GNU's insistence that it be called GNU/Linux - http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html)
</pedantic>
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Was that really necessary?
The point of this discussion is that Android is not Linux, does not include the vast majority of libraries found in standard Linux distributions, is thus incompatible with the vast majority of Linux applications, and is otherwise missing large portions of functionality. The fact that Android has some basis in Linux does not solve the problem of there being thousands of users out there that need to be able to do more than just basic word processing and web browsing on their mobile devices, but also want hardware that won't soon be neglected by developers.
Some people need VLC, Eclipse, GIMP, or various Oracle applications to get their work done. Telling people that Android has some similarity to Linux doesn't make those applications any easier to port, and would be pointless anyway if the same hardware can run Linux distros natively.
you made it to he news
earlyberd said:
The Linux kernel that actually makes it into the final builds of Android is not the same kernel that you would find in desktop and server distributions. Mainly, it is missing the X Window system and doesn't support all of the GNU libraries...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
......
Your kernel has the GNU libraries in it? and X Windows? Must be pretty large...
earlyberd said:
Was that really necessary?
The point of this discussion is that Android is not Linux
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, it is.
Linux == The Kernel. Everything else is just the distribution. Honeycomb is basically a Linux distribution, just like Ubuntu, RedHat, and Gentoo are. It is just highly specialized. And if you think that because it doesn't have the GNU libraries makes it somehow not Linux, you are DEAD wrong. There are a plethora of devices and distributions that do not use the GNU libraries or toolchain.
Aside from this, the fact that you seem to continuously confuse the kernel with the distirbution indicates to me you aren't really qualified to discuss this topic, so I would stop arguing it.
earlyberd said:
Was that really necessary?
The point of this discussion is that Android is not Linux, does not include the vast majority of libraries found in standard Linux distributions, is thus incompatible with the vast majority of Linux applications, and is otherwise missing large portions of functionality. The fact that Android has some basis in Linux does not solve the problem of there being thousands of users out there that need to be able to do more than just basic word processing and web browsing on their mobile devices, but also want hardware that won't soon be neglected by developers.
Some people need VLC, Eclipse, GIMP, or various Oracle applications to get their work done. Telling people that Android has some similarity to Linux doesn't make those applications any easier to port, and would be pointless anyway if the same hardware can run Linux distros natively.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you even go to the gnu link? Linux is the kernel. Android uses the Linux kernel. It's the tools on top of it that are missing (hence busybody)
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using XDA Premium App
I've bought a new phone however I do not want to waste my Nexus One. The idea came to my mind firstly was to make it a small 'server' running at home.
Technically I bet it's possible however I don't have a clear path to do that... I've googled for a while and I saw a lot tutorials about how to run Ubuntu on top of Android. However what I want is to get rid of Android and run Linux directly on the hardware.
I think that should have been done by some guys... any help thanks in advance!
zhangxiao83 said:
I've bought a new phone however I do not want to waste my Nexus One. The idea came to my mind firstly was to make it a small 'server' running at home.
Technically I bet it's possible however I don't have a clear path to do that... I've googled for a while and I saw a lot tutorials about how to run Ubuntu on top of Android. However what I want is to get rid of Android and run Linux directly on the hardware.
I think that should have been done by some guys... any help thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IIRC, Android is Linux.
If you mean the computer OS, I have no idea.
Theshawty said:
IIRC, Android is Linux.
If you mean the computer OS, I have no idea.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I understand that - However I meant Linux such as Ubuntu or Arch distribution...
zhangxiao83 said:
Yes I understand that - However I meant Linux such as Ubuntu or Arch distribution...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Running Ubuntu has been deemed possible.
Yes, but why and who will make a port (isn't this simple)? And not all drivers are open source and available to public.
BTW, android is linux and you can even port some applications (a time ago sometime is talking about porting glibc to android, don't remember if this get done, but I think is useless somehow).
It will happen
Word on the street is that Android drivers are being merged back into the development branch of the Linux 3.3 kernel. It's not too surprising considering Android developers were working with the Linux kernel developers until the 2.6.33 Linux kernel.
I bet we will see Debian or Ubuntu running on our N1s eventually. The N1 has a great developer backing since it was pitched as a developer phone, so I bet one of the many talented developers out there will eventually cook up a native Linux ROM. Besides, there are native ports for other devices out there so they can't be too far off.
You can currently install Ubuntu on your N1 but honestly it's pointless. Yes There are great apps to use but compatibility isn't 100% on the phone AND the apps run too slow to actually be useful.
You'd have better chances developing an app for android to do what you want lol.
If this helped hit THANKS
http://nexusonehacks.net/nexus-one-hacks/how-to-install-ubuntu-on-your-android/ Check this link for a how-to.
Hi everyone,
I consider buying a this nice little tablet I just wonder if anyone managed to install a complete Linux distribution on it like ArchLinux ARM natively (not emulation/virtualization not even chroot) with everything working. I guess that even if it's not done up to now it will be quite easy to do as everything is open source.
Thanks
So as a few months passed since the Nexus 7 is available and I just bought one yesterday, I thought that I could do a little up...
Hope mods won't think it is offensive to make alive an old thread with some kind of what I think is a good reason.
If no one can help me, I will probably work on a native ArchLinux ARM on my nice new tablet in the next days. But first I have to make sure I can get it back fully stock from a fully rooted/unlocked/repartitioned state. If I have no choice I will dd my entire N7's internal memory to a slightly bigger USB stick to recreate exactly the partition table. But I am not sure I can have a complete access to the internal flash memory (all of the partitions with the boot loader, recovery etc). If someone can confirm if I have only one memory drive or more to backup or if there is no chance that I cannot recrate then entire Android stock system from a corrupted partition table for example... I would appreciate it right!
Thanks in advance!
Sorry if this is already answered I have to confess that I didn't search for the last part, I don't have time this morning.
Sent from my Nexus 7
Yeah installing Linux on the N7 has been done. I think the Ubuntu Distro is the one that was used for the successful install.
I did a little searching and found it for you:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1585009
Hope that helps
Wilks3y said:
Yeah installing Linux on the N7 has been done. I think the Ubuntu Distro is the one that was used for the successful install.
I did a little searching and found it for you:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1585009
Hope that helps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your answer but I was looking for a native installation, not a chroot if possible that I can use hardware
acceleration (maybe that I still could with virtualGL though).
It is already a good point that it has been done in chroot, wich I am not surprised.
Sent from my Nexus 7
johnride said:
Thanks for your answer but I was looking for a native installation, not a chroot if possible that I can use hardware
acceleration (maybe that I still could with virtualGL though).
It is already a good point that it has been done in chroot, wich I am not surprised.
Sent from my Nexus 7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest mate, I'm not into it all that deep, couldn't even tell ya the difference between chroot and a native client, perhaps you could explain for me?
the chrooted version is the android kernel with the ubuntu "programs" running. you can access the ubuntu desktop only via a vnc client, as there is no "real" x server running. think of it as ubuntu running as a service in the background which you then access via local network from your android.
would be interested in a native version as well.
kendong2 said:
the chrooted version is the android kernel with the ubuntu "programs" running. you can access the ubuntu desktop only via a vnc client, as there is no "real" x server running. think of it as ubuntu running as a service in the background which you then access via local network from your android.
would be interested in a native version as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That explains it, so basically on chroot the Ubuntu is a virtual machine in essence?
johnride said:
Hi everyone,
I consider buying a this nice little tablet I just wonder if anyone managed to install a complete Linux distribution on it like ArchLinux ARM natively (not emulation/virtualization not even chroot) with everything working. I guess that even if it's not done up to now it will be quite easy to do as everything is open source.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Has not been released yet, but definitely check out this: http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android
Nooo there is a big difference between chroot and virtualization. On a chroot you still use the same kernel which allows to have the same speed or almost as a native client for what does not require hardware acceleration. the point in getting and Native Client working is that we could get advantage of the GPU after some more or less hard work. I bought this tablet to replace my sold laptop the best I could so that's why I'm interested in this.
When you do virtualization, CPU instructions are converted from a type to another and this is very heavy on the CPU and this way you cannot have good performances.
Think of a road: in chroot you only have to make the instructions take a turn without slowing down while in virtualization you have to stop the "convertible" instructions "remove the roof" and then you can continue. That's why virtualization is much slower than chroot.
Edit:
Chroot says what it does: it changes the root. This means that programs that run in the chroot environment will think that the / is another folder than what it is really. For example if you do chroot /sdcard/ and you have a file named derp.txt on your sdcard than type rm /derp.txt it will work since your / is now /sdcard/. The most come in case of uses of EC truth is when you have a Linux machine not booting anymore so you have to repair the boot loader, you will boot on a Live CD of the same distro (Ubuntu for example), mount the drive with the broken installation, chroot to this installation regular root and perform the same reparation as if this install would be booted, still using the kernel and binaries from your live CD (unless you specify that you want to use those from the chrooted environment).
Hope this is clear.
Sent from my Nexus 7
Stevenator21 said:
Has not been released yet, but definitely check out this: http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah that's a very nice project but I want the desktop on my tablet, no docks and all. This is also in chroot I believe. Probably that I will install ArchLinux in chroot and try to make VirtualGL work but it's not really what I want.
Sent from my Nexus 7
johnride said:
When you do virtualization, CPU instructions are converted from a type to another and this is very heavy on the CPU and this way you cannot have good performances.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Small clarification. You're describing emulation here. Emulation is one processor pretending to be another. The Android SDK provides an android emulator that pretends to be an ARM device while running on your x86 PC.
Virtualization is a special feature of some processor architectures that allows multiple, virtual memory spaces to be created that are isolated from each other at a very low-level. I seriously doubt (but don't know for sure) that the ARM architecture has much support for virtualization. VMWare and its ilk use virtualization.
Anyway, virtualization runs at full processor speed. However, access to everything but main RAM and the CPU may be emulated in most implementations. Particularly, it's very tricky to get proper access to the GPU via virtualization, so it is often emulated.
Trivia-time: The presence of a primitive form of virtualization in the 386 is what allowed Linux to be written back in the day. The 286 didn't support switching between normal and escalated privilege modes (aka kernel vs user process space) on the fly. Oh crap. Now I'm starting to show my age. Um, get off my lawn!?!
The more you know...
Thanks for the clarification old chap!
I knew about material virtualization with some CPU's but did not realize that there was no emulation for the biggest part of the instructions. Will sleep less dumb.
Sent from my Nexus 7
kendong2 said:
would be interested in a native version as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mhmmm as we are probably not alone to be interested in this, I think I will open a topic in original development section to see how many would be interested and what direction I should take. If anyone supports that idea I will create the thread. I think it would be easier to put together all the good ideas in the dev section.
Ah you beat me to it!
Well we (the linuxonandroid team) have been running a device fund which has just finished.
One of the devices i will be getting from this is a nexus 7 which is being bought for two goals.
A) fixing tegra chip bugs with our chroot builds (after all chroot for many is a good way forward as it leaves android intact)
B) building native linux distro installs. Starting with ubuntu but expanding to as many distros that support ARM as possible (debian, backtrack, archlinux, fedora etc etc).
So prehaps you would like to PM me and maybe we can team up for this
Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda premium
zacthespack said:
Ah you beat me to it!
Well we (the linuxonandroid team) have been running a device fund which has just finished.
One of the devices i will be getting from this is a nexus 7 which is being bought for two goals.
A) fixing tegra chip bugs with our chroot builds (after all chroot for many is a good way forward as it leaves android intact)
B) building native linux distro installs. Starting with ubuntu but expanding to as many distros that support ARM as possible (debian, backtrack, archlinux, fedora etc etc).
So prehaps you would like to PM me and maybe we can team up for this
Sent from my GT-N7000 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am currently working on developing on booting ubuntu on the nexus 7. Check this thread out - > http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1842915
Hi.
I would like your help in order to know if it's possible to install android to this device, in order to dual boot win8 and android.
Thanks and regards.
The Linux kernel (or any kernel apart from that of windows 8) is unsupported on Intel clovertrail SoC's as used in the vivotab smart.
True that's only Intel support but we are unlikely to see Linux on clovertrail with the exception of the phone specific models (which only run the Linux kernel in order to run android).
Intel have said that clovertrail is planned to be the only CPU with this limitation. The previous cedar trail happily ran android-x86, Ubuntu, BSD or whatever you wanted. Bay trail is also confirmed to be getting full support for this.
If you do want android on x86 tablets/laptops/desktops then you want the android-x86 project. It is just a case that the current tablet atom cpu's sadly can't run it yet, although if you try anyway it might well work, its just not supported.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
The Linux kernel (or any kernel apart from that of windows 8) is unsupported on Intel clovertrail SoC's as used in the vivotab smart.
True that's only Intel support but we are unlikely to see Linux on clovertrail with the exception of the phone specific models (which only run the Linux kernel in order to run android).
Intel have said that clovertrail is planned to be the only CPU with this limitation. The previous cedar trail happily ran android-x86, Ubuntu, BSD or whatever you wanted. Bay trail is also confirmed to be getting full support for this.
If you do want android on x86 tablets/laptops/desktops then you want the android-x86 project. It is just a case that the current tablet atom cpu's sadly can't run it yet, although if you try anyway it might well work, its just not supported.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi. Thank you very much for the reply.
May you get me na how to?
Thanks and regards
Like I said. It cant be done.
Well, it might be possible to but the only people who want to be looking into it at all would not be asking this question.
Your best bet is to try "jar of beans" or bluestacks if you are that desperate for android apps on your tablet.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Like I said. It cant be done.
Well, it might be possible to but the only people who want to be looking into it at all would not be asking this question.
Your best bet is to try "jar of beans" or bluestacks if you are that desperate for android apps on your tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my main target is to get gps software working.
But to laptop i only find copilot but cant get it without paying and its a huge value.
With android it would be so much easier...
jar of beans or bluestacks would be perfectly capable of dealing with that.
What you want to do has little to do with whether it is possible or not.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
jar of beans or bluestacks would be perfectly capable of dealing with that.
What you want to do has little to do with whether it is possible or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cant run because i cant use any video accelleration.
Do you know any solution to video hardware accelleration.
Thanks and regards
lostindeia said:
Cant run because i cant use any video accelleration.
Do you know any solution to video hardware accelleration.
Thanks and regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
code72 said:
+1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Didnt understood. +1?
lostindeia said:
Didnt understood. +1?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd like to know it, i'm in your same situation.
Both jar of beans and bluestacks run fine without hardware acceleration. It just uses software OpenGLES for your android app. For something like a GPS navigation app it would be more than fast enough.
On the other hand there are actually plenty of GPS applications including many free and open source ones for windows which would work fine under windows 8. Only thing is, I'm not sure that the vivotab actually has GPS in the first place so sticking android on the vivotab to get a GPS app would be pointless as you wouldnt be able to use it.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Both jar of beans and bluestacks run fine without hardware acceleration. It just uses software OpenGLES for your android app. For something like a GPS navigation app it would be more than fast enough.
On the other hand there are actually plenty of GPS applications including many free and open source ones for windows which would work fine under windows 8. Only thing is, I'm not sure that the vivotab actually has GPS in the first place so sticking android on the vivotab to get a GPS app would be pointless as you wouldnt be able to use it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Jar beans dont work well.
I have external gps.
Do you know any app? Cracked
Thanks and regards
Cracked? We might hack a few things here but we do not discuss or condone piracy.
As I said, there are FREE applications. Just get on google.
It's possible using rEFInd bootloader.
cybersyx said:
It's possible using rEFInd bootloader.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could you provide any more information on how to do it? Any links/tutorials would be highly appreciated...
cybersyx said:
It's possible using rEFInd bootloader.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its not a uefi issue. The clovertrail chips are not normal x86 chips, they are modified and would require a new version of Linux to run on them. They will run windows 8 and windows 8 only by design.
Can I do by chance T-Mobile S4 or Samsung original ROMs on the Google Edition of this phone? Or, T-Mobile ROM on the Unlocked International/World version? I want this because, basically, I want to buy unlocked, but in the case of the Google Edition, be able to install original Samsung ROMs or T-Mobile ROMs to restore lost functionality. On the case of a world phone, it would be purely to restore T-Mobile WiFi Calling. I plan to use this on T-Moble mostly, so I want it to work. HOWEVER, I want to be able to play with ROMs, swap out to stock Android or Google Edition ROMs for play, on occasion. Is it really easy to install a T-Mobile ROM on GE/Unlocked World Phones? and does everything work the same? Like, there won't be a part of the T-Mobile ROM not working, will there be?
I'm just bumping this because I'm curious too. I would love to flash AOSPA to my google edition, and theoretically the t-mobile is the same device.
jpculp said:
I'm just bumping this because I'm curious too. I would love to flash AOSPA to my google edition, and theoretically the t-mobile is the same device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As far as I am aware its not possible right now.
jetlitheone said:
As far as I am aware its not possible right now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why is that? They are using GE ROMs on T-Mobile phones. Why couldn't someone install or flash a T-Mobile ROM to a GE phone? Is there a particular problem they encounter right now?
There is big reason to want to do this, of course. The GE ROM is missing all the Samsung specific software, like camera features, probably finger tracking and pointing software, etc. Also missing, T-Mobile WiFi Calling support, because T-Mobile rather making this a hard to get feature by tightly concealing it inside some custom additions to the frame work rather than a separate app.
Because the hardware is the same, which it is, isn't it? I am having hard time figuring out why it wouldn't work. Is there some BIOS limitation, hardware limitation going on here?
None of the I9505 variants are using the stock GE rom. I9505G has different partition sizes so the devs had to change those first to make them compatible. I'm sure there are other differences because otherwise TWRP team wouldn't be taking this long to release the recovery for I9505G if it was just partition difference.
Sent from my GT-I9505G using xda app-developers app
deaffob said:
None of the I9505 variants are using the stock GE rom. I9505G has different partition sizes so the devs had to change those first to make them compatible. I'm sure there are other differences because otherwise TWRP team wouldn't be taking this long to release the recovery for I9505G if it was just partition difference.
Sent from my GT-I9505G using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Already released: http://teamw.in/project/twrp2/192
moops
deaffob said:
None of the I9505 variants are using the stock GE rom. I9505G has different partition sizes so the devs had to change those first to make them compatible. I'm sure there are other differences because otherwise TWRP team wouldn't be taking this long to release the recovery for I9505G if it was just partition difference.
Sent from my GT-I9505G using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
partition sizes? so you're saying the ROM doesn't take care of filesystem stuff, or changing the layout of the partitions on the system during installation? it just reuses the old partitions and possibly filesystems? so installations aren't truly "clean" just like gaining root access is always some clunky hack/workaround?
I mean, wouldn't the ROM just flash itself, and it's preferred layout within the flash memory, not even care about what it was before? I got this weird feeling about Android, that things are too hacked together, that's why I hate it. Why not develop a method to install Linux/Android from scratch, like manual bootloader installation, manual partition, manual formatting, manual installation of kernel and software to get it all working, just like a "fresh" "clean" install of an OS on any other computer? Is this already possible somewhere? I actually prefer to do all the installation and set up myself. They could also design the ROMs to include this information, or the flash utility to do most of it automatically.. I am surprised it doesn't do this already.
Let me ask another question, is it possible to go through and do a clean install of Android from an Android ROM? Like say you restart and repartition everywhere, recreate the filesystem, all settings, all files, etc? possibly even remove files or programs you don't want, but in a clean fashion? or add some you want to add?
masturbaker said:
I mean, wouldn't the ROM just flash itself, and it's preferred layout within the flash memory, not even care about what it was before?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, flashing ROMs does not re-partition the NAND.
masturbaker said:
partition sizes? so you're saying the ROM doesn't take care of filesystem stuff, or changing the layout of the partitions on the system during installation? it just reuses the old partitions and possibly filesystems? so installations aren't truly "clean" just like gaining root access is always some clunky hack/workaround?
I mean, wouldn't the ROM just flash itself, and it's preferred layout within the flash memory, not even care about what it was before? I got this weird feeling about Android, that things are too hacked together, that's why I hate it. Why not develop a method to install Linux/Android from scratch, like manual bootloader installation, manual partition, manual formatting, manual installation of kernel and software to get it all working, just like a "fresh" "clean" install of an OS on any other computer? Is this already possible somewhere? I actually prefer to do all the installation and set up myself. They could also design the ROMs to include this information, or the flash utility to do most of it automatically.. I am surprised it doesn't do this already.
Let me ask another question, is it possible to go through and do a clean install of Android from an Android ROM? Like say you restart and repartition everywhere, recreate the filesystem, all settings, all files, etc? possibly even remove files or programs you don't want, but in a clean fashion? or add some you want to add?
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It's not that simple. You seems to think that this is an Android's problem but this is the way it is in any programming. Apple can get away with one OS because they only have one type of hardware. For example, if you have to develop the CM for each device, you have to take account for everything from the screen size to SoC.
Back to your first question, if partition sizes are different, you can't flash roms because the rom that you are trying to flash could have bigger or smaller size and this could ruin the filesystem.
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deaffob said:
It's not that simple. You seems to think that this is an Android's problem but this is the way it is in any programming. Apple can get away with one OS because they only have one type of hardware. For example, if you have to develop the CM for each device, you have to take account for everything from the screen size to SoC.
Back to your first question, if partition sizes are different, you can't flash roms because the rom that you are trying to flash could have bigger or smaller size and this could ruin the filesystem.
Sent from my GT-I9505G using xda app-developers app
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it is that simple, though. it's just the problem with Android, is the tools aren't designed to be like this right now. the software is designed to do what it does now, because it was designed to not take care of these problems automatically.
I understand the issue right now is that the developers are focused in hacking Android, rather than opening it up and putting back in what's missing from the manufactures. stuff like user account management, being able to run all the command line tools from a shell, repartition, this and that. the current developers seem to think that everyone wants to keep their existing software in place without being able to clean install or reinstall any of it, so the tools don't start off the the beginning, don't make perfect clean back ups, and are just really bad hacks to everything in general. there is no solid OS development on android because of this. they don't think you want to have access to modify or treat the system just like it was any other computer, so they focus on cheap hacks instead of giving you full access and explanations on how to do everything. I'd like to see guides on how to manually do things myself, instead of using other peoples tools and programs to do it. I love to dive in and get physical with the OS, rather than do things the cheap and hacky way. i would also like an android kernel which has root without need for hacks.
Yes, each phone is different. But it doesn't mean that the kernel/OS couldn't be designed to handle this, without a different build for each phone. What you want to do is modularize the features of the phone, including driver for CPU, GPU, screen, resolution, color profile information, and specific hardware features. you should be able to do this exactly the same as in Windows, or Linux - the phone would load up only the relevant modules for the hardware components present on the phone. if the CPU architecture was vastly different, a different build could be offered to optimize performance. but other than that, there isn't a big different between the many phones out there. they all got ARM processors, often based on the same architecture, or similar design as each other. ie, a QUALCOMM or Samsung or NVidia CPU, each one that runs the same ARM code/instructions code, with small differences at best. they all got screens and touch input, there is a difference in WiFi and wireless chipsets, but that should all be handled by a driver from the hardware vendor (I am sure there is drivers in Android, but i haven't looked myself - you should be able to swap them out and load them up in different operating systems without hassle, because typically, in Linux, drivers are built to function with the major version of the kernel, not a specific build of a kernel). Because Linux is virtually the same all around, you should be able to build a driver that works in more than one kernel, and have is made available just like in Linux today, where you load it up only if you need it. If Android is not like this, the whole platform sounds like it was really poorly implemented...
masturbaker said:
it is that simple, though. it's just the problem with Android, is the tools aren't designed to be like this right now. the software is designed to do what it does now, because it was designed to not take care of these problems automatically.
I understand the issue right now is that the developers are focused in hacking Android, rather than opening it up and putting back in what's missing from the manufactures. stuff like user account management, being able to run all the command line tools from a shell, repartition, this and that. the current developers seem to think that everyone wants to keep their existing software in place without being able to clean install or reinstall any of it, so the tools don't start off the the beginning, don't make perfect clean back ups, and are just really bad hacks to everything in general. there is no solid OS development on android because of this. they don't think you want to have access to modify or treat the system just like it was any other computer, so they focus on cheap hacks instead of giving you full access and explanations on how to do everything. I'd like to see guides on how to manually do things myself, instead of using other peoples tools and programs to do it. I love to dive in and get physical with the OS, rather than do things the cheap and hacky way. i would also like an android kernel which has root without need for hacks.
Yes, each phone is different. But it doesn't mean that the kernel/OS couldn't be designed to handle this, without a different build for each phone. What you want to do is modularize the features of the phone, including driver for CPU, GPU, screen, resolution, color profile information, and specific hardware features. you should be able to do this exactly the same as in Windows, or Linux - the phone would load up only the relevant modules for the hardware components present on the phone. if the CPU architecture was vastly different, a different build could be offered to optimize performance. but other than that, there isn't a big different between the many phones out there. they all got ARM processors, often based on the same architecture, or similar design as each other. ie, a QUALCOMM or Samsung or NVidia CPU, each one that runs the same ARM code/instructions code, with small differences at best. they all got screens and touch input, there is a difference in WiFi and wireless chipsets, but that should all be handled by a driver from the hardware vendor (I am sure there is drivers in Android, but i haven't looked myself - you should be able to swap them out and load them up in different operating systems without hassle, because typically, in Linux, drivers are built to function with the major version of the kernel, not a specific build of a kernel). Because Linux is virtually the same all around, you should be able to build a driver that works in more than one kernel, and have is made available just like in Linux today, where you load it up only if you need it. If Android is not like this, the whole platform sounds like it was really poorly implemented...
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Alright don't take offense, but I think you have many wrong ideas on basic computer programming. Hacking basically means that exploring the limits of what is possible, thereby doing something exciting and meaningful. Hacking and programming aren't technically different. I don't get what you mean when you say 'hacky' or 'cheap' way. Like I said this isn't Android's problem. This is the way it is in any OS including Linux, Windows, OSX, iOS, etc.
We have had a way to do clean backups/restores for a long time. I don't know what you mean by 'bad hacks' on this regards. The way it does backups is the same way in any other system.
Android developers do not think that 'everyone wants to keep their existing software in place without being able to clean install or reinstall any of it.' If this were true, there wouldn't be so many ways to do backups either through individual app or NAND.
When you say 'there is no solid OS development on android' what do you mean by that? Android is the mobile OS that had gone through the most OS developments by independent programmers in the history. Everything from the corporate developments such as TouchWiz and Sense to the independent developments like Cyannogen and Paranoidandroid, each and everyone made significant deviation from the original AOSP source.
Where did you hear that Windows or Linux use one kernel for all hardware? Each and every hardware has different kernel that's specially made for the hardware.
deaffob said:
Where did you hear that Windows or Linux use one kernel for all hardware? Each and every hardware has different kernel that's specially made for the hardware.
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mostly all distros use a standard kernel build, which is the same across each install. sometimes you can find customized versions, or builds, or architecture dependent builds. like i can build Linux kernel for AMD64 architecture, and it works on both Intel and AMD. or i can build for i686, and it works on all modern 32-bit and 64-bit x86 processors. if I build it for i386, it works on processors dating back to the Pentium 1/2. I can also do a build specific to the Intel Ivy Bridge, or AMD Bulldozer architecture, which sometimes makes it faster on modern processors, but can be run on older ones with reduced speed. it is the same kernel, across every CPU it is run on. generally, I bet, the kernel in Android is built for "ARM" and it loads up and works on all ARM processors. sometimes you can compile it for specific architectures, and that may break it on others, but that is not how it's commonly done. On Windows, there is one kernel, that works on all OSes. recently Microsoft has begun doing architecture specific builds, like Windows 7 64bit has a kernel built for Intel and a separate for AMD, which gets installed depending on which one you have. The difference is not much, just mostly the compiler will be set with architecture specific flags which merely optimizes order and execution of operations usually. sometimes it enables the use of CPU specific features like SSE, etc.
the way it gets by using one build of the kernel, is through use of drivers and modules to support other hardware specific functions and features. most of the hardware specific features are in the modules and drivers. Distributions like Windows, Redhat and FreeBSD use a precompiled kernel that is the same in every installation, regardless of architecture, unless you compile it yourself or choose a more custom build. but the difference is generally only whether it's optimized for an Intel or AMD CPU, and code designed for both is generally just as fast as the architecture specific builds. on Android, the difference is, the CPU within each SoC, is probably virtually identical. each one based on a specific ARM core or design (which they bought and licensed from ARM, so it is a design shared amongst vendors), which is the ARMv7-A architecture on modern Android phones, whether it's NVidia, QUALCOMM, or Samsung. there is not a whole lot of difference in each vendors product other than the GPU and wireless chipsets, but most chipsets other than NVidia do share the common GPU architecture as well (Adreno 320), meaning the kernel/drivers should be identical. support for GPU and other chipsets within the phone should be handled by a driver or module.