I have been having some fun and games with phone contacts as some of you might have seen.
Another thing I did wrong was to import these sim contacts onto the phone [no need I am guessing] so I see them twice.
What I want to do i do a .pst export from my pc with the mobile numbers to my laptop whose outlook currently has no contacts and I can then import them all correctly orientated that way to my phone.
I would like to delete all the current phone contacts to be able to do this.
Anyway easy way please? (I did a quick seach with no joy!)
Thanks
if I understand you, you are trying to clear the phone completely of contacts, but can't be bothered to tick one at a time?
the key herr is that the sim contacts manager has a select all option, people tab menu doesn't.
try this
people all people menu sim manager menu select all menu delete.
that should be the sim empty(if it wasn't already)
now, if you go menu delete contacts, it will populate the empty screen with your phones contacts and let you then do menu select all delete.
phone should now be empty of contacts.
to be fair [bothered to tick one at a time] there are over 180!
Thanks, I will try that.
I can always copy the contacts back to the sim from my other phone.
sync with outlook delete them all from outlook sync again viola (u need to have set that PC is master for data)
Thanks for that.
I managed to solve a couple of problems in one go:
my contacts in outlook on the laptop is not populated so I imported the mobile numbers from desktop outlook to laptop contacts.
Then deleted sim and phone contacts then synched with laptop outlook and now Contacts are nicely arranged first name, last name.
Belts and braces - I copied all contacts to sim and then hid sim contacts
Thanks guys
just a thought but if you have them in the phone and outlook which I assume you are going to keep synced.. why copy to sim when that WON'T be synced and you run the risk of corrupting your good lis
t in the future?
the rationale when I did it was in case I need to send the phone back etc etc but I take your point that I would have the backup on the laptop.
Just another layer of backup which I hopefully will not have to use?
heh yea.just don't forget they're there and accidentally merge them go the future...back to square one. lol
There is an app around that will clear the contacts on a windows mobile device.
If you search 'clear contacts in windows mobile' in google you should find it. Not sure if it's Mobile 6.5 ready.
Related
OK well I am using PocketCM as my contact manager. I have to entries for EACH one of my contacts, and NO one of them is not the SIM card contac, i have sim card contacts disabled. In MS Outlook i HAD to of each contact, so i deleted all of the duplicates and synced. I still have duplicate contacts. So i deleted pim.vol and resynced and it gave me 4 of each contact!!! I didnt understand. SO i put back the original pim.vol and I am stumped because I still have duplicate contacts. Is there any way to fix this?
the contacts on your phone and outlook were probably not exactly identical
this is quite long-winded but is simple and should work:
-Used NS contacts to backup all your contacts on your pocket pc
-Backup your outlook user folder/s
-delete all your contacts, on outlook and pocket pc
-check the ns contacts backup file on pc (you'll have to install the NS Contacts (different to NS contacts Backup-the pocket PC program) program on PC)
-After checking for and deleting duplicates, save the backup file
-Use this file to restore your contacts on pocket pc, once your satisfied, sync with oulook and you'll have the contacts on outlook also
remember to check which of the duplicate contacts you delete, some may have missing details etc.
NS Contacts Backup (Pocket PC) and NS Contacts voth available from:
http://www.nyxbull.net/
Oouch
Bugger that for a lark !
Guess this is a strong reason for not using it. Anything that messes with synchronisation is to be well avoided.
I actually synced a clean phone (ie just burned new rom) with my Outlook contacts and hit this problem.
Humble pie
After a stopping and starting the prog my double contacts disapeared, and I have since had a look at it and I must say I quite like it !
aameerp said:
-delete all your contacts, on outlook and pocket pc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just wondering how you do this on your pocket pc, without having to delete each one by hand.
I've just sorted my contacts list on the pc and don't want to have to do it again so don't want to sync the phone with the pc till after I've deleted the triplicate entries... deleting each one by hand is kinda tedious seeing as my 100+ phone numbers have been duplicated twice.
there's a way to sync the phone contacts with outlook, if you have doubles most likely you can simply highlight all the duplicates at once and hit delete. this method you'll have to sort by modify date on outlook, cause your old contacts will be dated before the duplicates (which is probably all added later) so just look for later added contacts and be gone! =)
right I did the deleting the contacts the long way on the pocket pc. They've all now gone and I deleted all the contacts in the sim manager.
sorted all the ones I want in my outlook.
Synched the phone.
.... and now I've only got 2 contacts in my phone...
anyone any ideas what i'm doing wrong. Think it might be to do with my set up with my synching, but i'm having trouble finding how to solve that.
Friends,
I have recently switched from Nokia 3230 to HTC Touch. I have all my 3230 contact backed up in ".vcf" format. How shall i import all contacts to Touch.
there are more than 250 contacts, which are impossible to enter manually.
Please help me soon bcoz i m using touch without any contacts now :-(
Try to beam them from PC to Touch. Message like "Do you want to save <name> in your contats?" should appear, wait till all contacts are transfered and press "Yes to all"
kalpesh99 said:
Friends,
I have recently switched from Nokia 3230 to HTC Touch. I have all my 3230 contact backed up in ".vcf" format. How shall i import all contacts to Touch.
there are more than 250 contacts, which are impossible to enter manually.
Please help me soon bcoz i m using touch without any contacts now :-(
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
.vcf format is not supported by pocket pc and wont be recognized
how abt saving them to ur sim card and then savin them back in ppc contacts
if your sim card gets full...u can try by going at steps of 100 contacts per round or 50
gronostaj said:
Try to beam them from PC to Touch. Message like "Do you want to save <name> in your contats?" should appear, wait till all contacts are transfered and press "Yes to all"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what do you mean by "BEAM them"?? and i have all contacts in single '.vcf' file.
How shall i go about it??
When I switched from my Nokia 6620 I just saved all my contact from my 6620 in address book on my computer (using sinc for Nokia) and then opened Outlook and imported the contact from Address book to outlook. Once this is done, just use Activsinc (for touch) to sinc contacts to the touch. Worked for me. I had almost 200 contacts and it took only about 10 minutes to do it. (Ten minutes of waiting for Sinc to be completed)
hotrod101 said:
When I switched from my Nokia 6620 I just saved all my contact from my 6620 in address book on my computer (using sinc for Nokia) and then opened Outlook and imported the contact from Address book to outlook. Once this is done, just use Activsinc (for touch) to sinc contacts to the touch. Worked for me. I had almost 200 contacts and it took only about 10 minutes to do it. (Ten minutes of waiting for Sinc to be completed)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi
the real problem for me is (its sort of irony), the day i bought Touch, my nokia 3230 died. It does not boot at all. otherwise I could have sent all contacts from 3230 to Touch by bluetooth only.
right now, what i have in my hand is only a '.vcf' file having all my contacts (which i had created on 3230 using some 'backup contacts' application).
I searched on the net a lot for the application for winMobile which can import contacts from '.vcf' file, but i did not get a single appl.
So even after starting using Touch for 5 days, i am without any contacts on Touch...
Copying contacts into SIM and then retrieving has huge lose of information
ayyu3m said:
.vcf format is not supported by pocket pc and wont be recognized
how abt saving them to ur sim card and then savin them back in ppc contacts
if your sim card gets full...u can try by going at steps of 100 contacts per round or 50
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Copying contacts into SIM and then retrieving has huge lose of information
1. name and surname are stored in single field in SIM with limited characters.. so name or surname is truncated.
2. If i have stored 3 numbers for a single person, all are stored as different contacts in SIM.. so combining them in Touch will anyways be a headache
3. any photo stored in contact is not saved in SIM.
But with '.vcf' file, all above problems are taken care of. so i am searching a WM application to retrieve contacts from '.vcf' file
Any application that can convert 'vcf' file into WM recognizable format will also be of great help.
.vcf = V Card File. Microsoft address book on your desktop can read V Card Files.
However; your HTC Touch does not so you have to convert them.
Open Microsoft Outlook. Go to IMPORT - click Import .vcf file. Choose your backed up vcf files and click. This will grab your .vcf files and convert them for outlook. They will be converted to become outlook address book files (unsure of what format / extension that is - Didn't check) Outlook will sinc with your device when you connect and voila === All contacts can be on your new device in the proper format since Outlook address book is compatible with WM Devices. The End.
PS. Make sure your activsinc is set up to sincronize contacts.
kalpesh99 said:
Hi
the real problem for me is (its sort of irony), the day i bought Touch, my nokia 3230 died. It does not boot at all. otherwise I could have sent all contacts from 3230 to Touch by bluetooth only.
right now, what i have in my hand is only a '.vcf' file having all my contacts (which i had created on 3230 using some 'backup contacts' application).
I searched on the net a lot for the application for winMobile which can import contacts from '.vcf' file, but i did not get a single appl.
So even after starting using Touch for 5 days, i am without any contacts on Touch...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Transfering your contacts from Nokia using bluetooth probably wouldn't have worked - Different format that the WM device does not recognize. It didn't work for me when I tried that first. My Nokia 6620 contacts were all .vcf files so when I sincronized by nokia to my computer my contacts automatically were saved on my computer in Microsoft address book as .vcf files.
You have them already saved as a .vcf file. All you need now is Microsoft outlook - and go to file - import - import .vcf file. voila converted and now in proper format for WM Device.
hotrod101 said:
.vcf = V Card File. Microsoft address book on your desktop can read V Card Files.
However; your HTC Touch does not so you have to convert them.
Open Microsoft Outlook. Go to IMPORT - click Import .vcf file. Choose your backed up vcf files and click. This will grab your .vcf files and convert them for outlook. They will be converted to become outlook address book files (unsure of what format / extension that is - Didn't check) Outlook will sinc with your device when you connect and voila === All contacts can be on your new device in the proper format since Outlook address book is compatible with WM Devices. The End.
PS. Make sure your activsinc is set up to sincronize contacts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi...
I think outlook reads '.vcf' file as a single contact person detail. when i double-click on my '.vcf' file, which contains all the contacts, it shows up only first entry of .vcf file and not other contacts.. same thing happened when i imported .vcf file into outlook from 'file->impot->import vcf file'. It imported only first contact info of all contacts.
that means i have to first break my .vcf file (containing 250 contacts) into 250 different vcf files and then import them to outlook ???!!
kalpesh99 said:
Hi...
I think outlook reads '.vcf' file as a single contact person detail. when i double-click on my '.vcf' file, which contains all the contacts, it shows up only first entry of .vcf file and not other contacts.. same thing happened when i imported .vcf file into outlook from 'file->impot->import vcf file'. It imported only first contact info of all contacts.
that means i have to first break my .vcf file (containing 250 contacts) into 250 different vcf files and then import them to outlook ???!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try importing to Microsoft Address book first then to see if it will open all contacts. Once this is done you (if it does work) you will have to save each .vcf contact as a seperate .vcf file seperately onto your desktop- *(Shouldn't take too long) then use outlook to import the .vcf's.
I have a sneeking suspicion though that when you did your backup you might have only backed up one contact and not all of them.
When you backup .vcf's as an address book it is no longer a .vcf extension but something entireley different (the extension eludes me right now). like I said before .vcf stands for V Card file - ( one address card or file ) not address book. I hope that I am wrong though and that the Microsoft address book will open all the contacts for you.
Otherwise, you might have to try to find a way to either fix your Nokia just to properly backup your contacts or start from scratch as I don't know of any other way.
It is simple, but takes some time.
The cellfone accepts the .vcf cards... but you will have to follow these steps:
1. Copy all your contacts to your PC using the "explorer-friendly" folder at "My Computer" - this folder appears if you have installed Nokia PCSuite.
2. Then, after inslalling ActiveSync, a folder named "Mobile Device" will appear, which control the cellphone files.
3. Open the "Mobile Device" through "My Computer" and create a folder named "Contacts" inside your cellphone.
4. Copy all your previuos contacts to the new folder.
5. Using your cellphone, open the new folder which contains the new contacts, and CLICK ON EACH ONE > the phone will ask if you want to add the contact, then click YES.
It takes some time, depending on how many contacts do you have.
Thanks a lot folks
Thanks a lot hotrod101 and ov3r
using combination of steps suggested by you, I couls import all my contacts to Touch.
Following are the steps which might be useful to anybody else as well
1. in winXP open start->accessories->"Address book"
2. click file->import->business card (vCard)
3. "Address book" builds all contacts which r there in '.vcf' file and shows in form of list of individual vcf contacts
4. connect Touch to PC and open any folder in HTC through activesync explorer
5. select all contacts displayed in "address book" and drag them to particular folder in Touch.
6. inside mobile, keep clicking on individual file, where it prompts for saving contact.
7. this way, save all contacts (really cumbersome clicking all 250 contact file, but certainly easier than typing each contact manually.
*. One loss is photo stored in 'vcf' files are not imported to Touch.
Thanks a lot all folks who took out time to reply and suggest steps which lead me to import all contacts.
still one problem...
ooooopppppssss !!!
still one problem...
if there r more than 1 mobile numbers stored per contact, only 1 number is imported (in XP Address book itself). it allows only 1 mobile, 1 landline number to be imported, not 2 or more of each type..
One more query....
One more query....
Contacts in touch also show SIM contacts.... how to turn them off and view only phone contacts (since i have stored some imp contacts on SIM... so they are shown double in contact list, one from SIM and other from phone)
kalpesh99 said:
ooooopppppssss !!!
still one problem...
if there r more than 1 mobile numbers stored per contact, only 1 number is imported (in XP Address book itself). it allows only 1 mobile, 1 landline number to be imported, not 2 or more of each type..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting problem. I don't know if importing the VCF's to Outlook would have solved that problem either. You could try to import one of the .vcf's with multiple #'s to outlook and see if all of the #'s made it. But it probably isn't going to be worth the effort. Just sinc now with your computer - then update all of the missing phone # and re sinc. unless you have a lot of contacts with missing phone #'s it shouldn't be that much hassle.
PS. Glad that you were able to get all of the contacts on there though. You must be so releived.
I don't know what to say about the SIM contacts though because I don't store my contacts to my SIM. Why not just delete the duplicate entry?
hotrod101 said:
Interesting problem. I don't know if importing the VCF's to Outlook would have solved that problem either. You could try to import one of the .vcf's with multiple #'s to outlook and see if all of the #'s made it. But it probably isn't going to be worth the effort. Just sinc now with your computer - then update all of the missing phone # and re sinc. unless you have a lot of contacts with missing phone #'s it shouldn't be that much hassle.
PS. Glad that you were able to get all of the contacts on there though. You must be so releived.
I don't know what to say about the SIM contacts though because I don't store my contacts to my SIM. Why not just delete the duplicate entry?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
indeed i am relieved with all your help.... I did not have many contacts with double numbers.. so for such contacts, i will manually add second number...
Regarding storing contacts in SIM, it is needed when your cell stops working and u need to put your SIM in some other mobile to make call to anybody.. if no numbers r there in SIM, and ur cell stops working, I will be screwed up since i dont memorise any number
kalpesh99 said:
ooooopppppssss !!!
still one problem...
if there r more than 1 mobile numbers stored per contact, only 1 number is imported (in XP Address book itself). it allows only 1 mobile, 1 landline number to be imported, not 2 or more of each type..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that's really a problem, cuz Touch has many fields: cel, home phone, home p.2; work, work 2 etc; but does not have a field named "cellphone 2" or similar.
so, if a contact has two cellphones registered in its .vcf file, only one number will be imported. it's an incompatibility between Nokia and HTC field arrangement.
you may solve the problem by switching one of the numbers (ex: the less used by the person) to a differente field, i.e., "car phone", but before copying the .vcf file to the phone.
that's the only thing you can solve this problem.
PS: the second number (of two cellphone numbers) is in my phone as "car phone" or as "radio phone" in my contact list.
how to make .vcf file from my HTC Touch Pro?? because i'm going to update my ROM.. i've been trying to find it, but i coudn't find the way to safe it as .vcf file.
i would like to back up all my contact detail from my HTC...
please someone who know about this matter help me..
thank you
excelex said:
how to make .vcf file from my HTC Touch Pro?? because i'm going to update my ROM.. i've been trying to find it, but i coudn't find the way to safe it as .vcf file.
i would like to back up all my contact detail from my HTC...
please someone who know about this matter help me..
thank you
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
U could look for Cellica.Contacts.Synchronizer
OMG!!! What a horrible day!
I removed an exchange email today n quickly found out later that all my contacts n calendar were tied to it and i now hv to source for a OST to PST converter... argh...
Then I went on to set up my new pst file n tried to sync my mobile's contacts n calendar into the new outlook. First it says... attention required bcoz it was a wrong personal folder. So i deleted the device and added one back so it can now be linked to the new default calendar n contacts.
I carefully select on the device in the event of duplicate "mobile replace desktop" or somethign similar.
&^&(&#*#^ ACTIVE SYNC CLEARED MY CONTACTS n CALENDAR!!
I am .... argh..... so mad!!!!
As this is a new phone, i had only had a chance of sync it a wk ago n havent gone ard BACK UP!
PLEASEEEEEEEE HELP!!!!!!
And if any of you is able to help me convert my OST to PST file... I WOULD BE FOREVER GRATEFUL!! I hate EXCHANGE n I HEREBY HATE ACTIVE SYNC!!
Can someone also recomend what other sync appl can I use to replace active sync?
This may or may not help you........ I had the same thing happen to me, if you have OUTLOOK (NOT EXPRESS, OR OTHERS) then your contacts will be in the deleted tab.......... open outlook and recover........
Ouch, that's got to hurt
Glad I don't use ActiveSync (coded by pre teens) or Outlook (the target of all that malware)
Sorry for not helping
wise lesson: always make a backup, wich can be done on pc(outlook) as on your phone.....
sorry for not solving your problem, without a backup it's very difficult I think
so, you deleted your contacts, not ActiveSync itself, but sh*t happens man, life sometimes s*cks. Remember - ALLAYS make a full backup of your contacts
Since you have an .ost file, I assume you can still open your exchange account (cached) in Outlook. If you can, then create a PST file.
Go File > New > Outlook Data file, name it, save it somewhere you can easily find.
Once the PST is created, you wil have Personal Folders (default name)
Right click on the folder > New folder. Select Contact items on the dropdown, name it Contacts.
Now go to your Contacts under the Mailbox, Set view to Phone list or By Category to put them in a list, then drag the contact items to the Contact folder in the Personal folder.
If you want to move calendar items, Create a Calendar folder first, same steps as above.
If you really need to convert OST to PST, go here
I migrated to a new computer and while synchronizing with activesync, my whole contact list on my HTC Touch Pro 2 got deleted/replaced by the empty contact list from Outlook 2007. Unfortunately I had no backup yet (old computer was stolen). Is there a way to reverse the sync. Maybe there is a hidden backup file from WM. Could anyone help?
Hi There!
I notice that since moving my sim card from my i8910 where I didn't have duplicate contacts, that when I installed it in my new hd2, I do have duplicates but can't determine why. Usually it's because you have both sim and phone contacts displayed, but I haven't copied them to the phone yet.
i am concerned about deleting them for fear of losing them.
Also I expected contacts and on my list at the bottom I have "people" instead, and when I "add contact" it creates a new blank contact.
Where is the contacts?
Really? No-one knows the answer or has had this problem before?
Bump? Anyone?
If you remove the SIM and boot your phone, do you still have the duplicates?
Lets clarify it, do you have double contacts on your sim?
Contacts on sim have different icon them contacts on phone, does all your contacts have the same icon?
Did you sync your phone with the pc?
kilrah said:
If you remove the SIM and boot your phone, do you still have the duplicates?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, no contacts at all, Seems like the dupes are on the sim, though they don't show up as dupes on another phone I have here. Is there a nice tool for cleaning dupes off a sim?
Mikulec said:
Lets clarify it, do you have double contacts on your sim?
Contacts on sim have different icon them contacts on phone, does all your contacts have the same icon?
Did you sync your phone with the pc?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Never sync'd, but all contacts look like sim contacts.
That is quit weird, I think sktools has an option to scan and delete duplicate contasts, appointments, tasks, ... U can try it. Before that backup your contacts, just in case.
networkn said:
Really? No-one knows the answer or has had this problem before?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why dont you just use Microsoft MyPhone to sync all contact info. When you log in to your account then on desktop pc just click the button "search for duplicates" and there you go. You also can add/edit/delete/... every single contact info via the web interace. And next time when you click sync in your phone the changes will be made to the contacts on your phone. (also u can sync the calender, pictures, videos, even the storage card...)
Microsoft MyPhone is probably the best thing MS invented for their phones. and it works soo soo good
I tried to use MS My Phone, the problem is that it won't sync contacts on my sim, and it appears this is where the duplicates are.
I need a tool that will allow me to edit sim contacts on my PC
Copy sim contacts to outlook, delete everything on card, sync with myphone, remove duplicates, copy back to sim? Don't know if that last step is possible though...
Anyway, I really wonder how one can still use SIM contacts for everything... I haven't used SIM contacts anymore for the past ~8 years...
I could actually kill someone right now.
I copied sim to contacts, contacts to My Phone. Deleted Sim Contacts (using sim manager which I didn't know deleted contacts as well), then sync'd to My Phone and now I have 0 contacts anywhere!
I didn't know know myphone was a one way sync, now I just lost 165 contacts!
I wonder what the chances of sim contacts recovery is?
I had another phone that had a copy of my contacts from 2 months ago. Thank the Gods! Not impressed with Windows Mobile and it's crappy Contact Management though!
networkn said:
I didn't know know myphone was a one way sync
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not, but it's perfectly normal it acted that way. Sync works both ways, once you have set up a sync relationship, the modifications on one side will follow the ones on the other side. That's the whole point of syncing.
I.e if you modify/delete a contact on myphone, it will modifiy/delete it on the phone on next sync. If you modify/delete on the phone, next sync will apply that to myphone. As you deleted everything on the phone, it's normal that next sync deletes them on myphone too. It can't guess the deletion wasn't intentional... You should not have synced, but have either run a restore operation, or deleted/recreated the partnership checking that myphone overwrites device.
Every sync system works that way, not just winmo/outlook/myphone... you just need to learn it
networkn said:
I could actually kill someone right now.
I copied sim to contacts, contacts to My Phone. Deleted Sim Contacts (using sim manager which I didn't know deleted contacts as well), then sync'd to My Phone and now I have 0 contacts anywhere!
I didn't know know myphone was a one way sync, now I just lost 165 contacts!
I wonder what the chances of sim contacts recovery is?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check the "Archive" section on the MyPhone website, they are in there.
Hi,
i have previously had this problem aswell.
recently i purchased hd2 tmobile USA version.
and i had alot of contacts on outlook, so i synced it with hd2.
after that i started making changes to my contacts on the phone like adding facebook tags etc.
then when i resynced most of the contacts got deleted.
now the only setting i see in windows media device center is
"replace items on device" or "replace items on desktop"
what i want to do is sync both ways meaning add contacts from outlook to hd2 then if i make changes or add facebook tags on hd2, then resync i want the information to get updated on outlook (pc) aswell but instead what happens is outlook recognized info that doesnt match and deletes it on the phone and all data gets lost.
please let me know is it possible.
thanks for helping out.
it should already sync both ways (it does on mine anyway, and always has on all phones with activesync)
the part about "replace items on device" or "replace items on desktop" should only come into play when there is a conflict (eg you edit a contact on your phone, edit the same contact differently on your pc), only then 'should' the 'replace items on..' kick in and decide.
I suggest you clear your sync partnership and start over, making sure you have the latest wmdc installed.
samsamuel said:
it should already sync both ways (it does on mine anyway, and always has on all phones with activesync)
the part about "replace items on device" or "replace items on desktop" should only come into play when there is a conflict (eg you edit a contact on your phone, edit the same contact differently on your pc), only then 'should' the 'replace items on..' kick in and decide.
I suggest you clear your sync partnership and start over, making sure you have the latest wmdc installed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i think youre right. what i did was added some contacts frm pc to phone and some i had on my phone. also some contacts i had added from pc to phone that i updated on my phone like facebook etc so when i synced everyrhing got messed up.
i also hve another question. i have two .pst files with contacts on them. is there any way i can put a few contacts from one file to another?
thanks alot.
ya you can. in outlook go file - import - import from personal file.(I forget the exact wording, I'm afk atm.) then browse to the pst.
file -> manage datafiles -> add, select your pst, it will be loaded and appear as a separate folder, then you can copy whatever you want between them.