Related
hi is there is any SIMPLE way to port Android on HD2 that is for non developers or programers, well why because i want to do it but i suck at this if theres any thread or guide will be very welcome thanks....
why dont u buy android phones?
giantsfan91 said:
why dont u buy android phones?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
^seriously :d
witchstick said:
hi is there is any SIMPLE way to port Android on HD2 that is for non developers or programers, well why because i want to do it but i suck at this if theres any thread or guide will be very welcome thanks....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
not another one of these threads. learn to use the search button. http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=651632
there is NO WAY right now to even port it. like the guys above me said, go buy an android phone.
close thread please.
what you could try is:
copy a HTC desire ROM to your HD2 and see what happens when you boot it..
please let me know the outcome..
witchstick said:
hi is there is any SIMPLE way to port Android on HD2 that is for non developers or programers, well why because i want to do it but i suck at this if theres any thread or guide will be very welcome thanks....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just download the android.cab and you're good to go!
cheers mate
DennisCSUF said:
Just download the android.cab and you're good to go!
cheers mate
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LMAO.....
I know its agervating to answer this question over and over when someone doesn't know how to search the forums. Tho I know you are being sarcastic, and you show may of signs of being sarcastic, but he/she may not and will end up bricking his phone.
Don't do what he suggested. You will have a $500+ brick.
God, this made my monday a lot better
Funny $ H it
CLOSE THIS
lmao @ replies
ct9 said:
lmao @ replies
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x2 ...REALLY...NO REALLY??
Or you can do like "nothing is impossible" did...grab a 480x800 EVO screenshot and open it in albums and BOOM! Android on HD2!
kntdookoo said:
God, this made my monday a lot better
Funny $ H it
CLOSE THIS
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Click to collapse
.....
secano said:
.....
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Click to collapse
Ha im an idiot..damn holidays and TUESDAYS
kntdookoo said:
Ha im an idiot..damn holidays and TUESDAYS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought today was wednesday? Maybe?... No? Alright, guess I'll just go home...
Didn't know we had so many comedians here on XDA, have any of you thought about trying out for Last Comic Standing?
Did you catch a hint of sarcasm, you sure did!
Should the OP have used search, yes. Should the OP take a look at the XDA homepage from time to time, sure. But really, whats the point in replying if you have nothing to contribute of value. Reply #4, even though it was blunt and could be read in a not so pleasant tone, still offered a valid answer and link without leading the OP down the path to a possible brick. Everything other reply was useless. Go ahead, flame me all you want, I don't give a ____.
To the OP, no, there is not a direct port of Android in any flavor for the HD2, or any other WinMo based phone for that matter. Yet. This doesn't mean it won't be possible, amazing things have happened here on XDA since I joined in 2007. There are options though, keep watching this thread as there are currently 6 known working HTC WinMo devices that can run Android via a WinMo app called haret.
W.O.P.R said:
Didn't know we had so many comedians here on XDA, have any of you thought about trying out for Last Comic Standing?
Did you catch a hint of sarcasm, you sure did!
Should the OP have used search, yes. Should the OP take a look at the XDA homepage from time to time, sure. But really, whats the point in replying if you have nothing to contribute of value. Reply #4, even though it was blunt and could be read in a not so pleasant tone, still offered a valid answer and link without leading the OP down the path to a possible brick. Everything other reply was useless. Go ahead, flame me all you want, I don't give a ____.
To the OP, no, there is not a direct port of Android in any flavor for the HD2, or any other WinMo based phone for that matter. Yet. This doesn't mean it won't be possible, amazing things have happened here on XDA since I joined in 2007. There are options though, keep watching this thread as there are currently 6 known working HTC WinMo devices that can run Android via a WinMo app called haret.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think there's more than 6 winmo devices that can run android through haret. But otherwise, you're completely right.
I don't think a lot of the people on these forums asking for android on HD2 understand the fact that there has been no perfect android port for any winmo devices, yet. I've noticed there's a lot of new winmo users on these hd2 forums who think that a port should come soon and they will be able to install/flash it and have a perfectly working android phone. I've even heard people say they bought the hd2 anticipating an android port.
It doesn't work like that. It never has. These ports take time. They are very buggy at first, and even when they iron out the bugs, it is still not fully functional. It will probably be years before we have a port that can use bluetooth, wifi, camera, sensors, etc.
If you want to use android full-time as your main phone os, get an android phone. It's great when we can boot into android when you want and use some android apps, but it's going to be a very long time before its functional enough to want to use full-time. If you want to have a hd2 and make full use of its features, your gonna have to use winmo. A bootable android will be a great feature and fun thing to play with, but thats all its going to be good for for a long time.... something to play with. I dont think theres been a fully functional port to a winmo phone, yet.
So to the people waiting for android on your hd2... be patient, and dont expect a fully working version anytime soon.
Hi there I have looked and I know there are lots of different ways to have Android but I would like to know the best most stable ROM...
Thanks,
Craig.
craigrobertson said:
Hi there I have looked and I know there are lots of different ways to have Android but I would like to know the best most stable ROM...
Thanks,
Craig.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
?
How good are your skills.. maybe you can contribute in some way.. ?
Have you even read *some* of the other threads..
oNNoZeLe said:
?
Have you even read *some* of the other threads..
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craigrobertson said:
Hi there I have looked and I know there are lots of different ways to have Android but I would like to know the best most stable ROM...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He has not!!!
Use search!!!
wow, friendly people....
suge_e said:
wow, friendly people....
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Click to collapse
Exactly, it doesnt take much to be nice really does it...
The best release I have tried is the xdandroid 2.2
link: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=732362
To be fair though, there hasn't been a properly stable release yet on the touch hd yet but the developers are working on it!
Thanks for the nice replies...
Just because some of us are not on the forums all the time doesn't mean we ask totally stupid questions. Just because you can search doesn't mean it finds the relevant information.
I was only looking for some help/advice...
Use this:
willk22 said:
The best release I have tried is the xdandroid 2.2
link: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=732362
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Click to collapse
in combination with the work by Camro.
Then you'll have a decent version with some small bugs.
That's (as far as i know) the best out there atm for our Touch HD.
craigrobertson said:
Thanks for the nice replies...
Just because some of us are not on the forums all the time doesn't mean we ask totally stupid questions. Just because you can search doesn't mean it finds the relevant information.
I was only looking for some help/advice...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That may be true, but you have to take into account that your first post was a bit of a "drive-by shooting" kind of thing.
The developers here aren't unfriendly, but years of people posting "Hey what's the best X thanks" will make most people a bit weary.
In other words, there is a lot of information here but the best way to get help is to ask with a bit of knowledge beforehand. For example:
"I have a Touch HD and want to run android. I know about HaRET and how to install an android build on my SD-card, but am unsure which build to use. I've seen build X, Y and Z and am wondering whether someone has tried any or even better all of them, and could tell me which one seems the most stable.
I'm thinking of trying X, but if Y is a lot better I'd prefer to get that on my first try."
Also, you can't find "the best most stable ROM" using search because, well, that's up to a lot of different factors.
Often, the only way to make sure is by trying a lot of them yourself and see what works best for you.
Finding what works for you takes time and effort.
If you can show that you're willing to spend both, people here will be nothing but helpful. And I'm not saying you're not willing, I'm just saying that maybe that wasn't very clear from your first post. Know what I mean?
Good luck with setting up Android on your HD.
experts
the developers here has been a great help and made my diamond and HD awesome! You should pay attention to what Polar Bear writes in the previous post. 2.2 Xdandroid is almost reliable I'm waiting for a new release, but keep in mind the long wait for X10 users...
Holy Bear said:
That may be true, but you have to take into account that your first post was a bit of a "drive-by shooting" kind of thing.
The developers here aren't unfriendly, but years of people posting "Hey what's the best X thanks" will make most people a bit weary.
In other words, there is a lot of information here but the best way to get help is to ask with a bit of knowledge beforehand. For example:
"I have a Touch HD and want to run android. I know about HaRET and how to install an android build on my SD-card, but am unsure which build to use. I've seen build X, Y and Z and am wondering whether someone has tried any or even better all of them, and could tell me which one seems the most stable.
I'm thinking of trying X, but if Y is a lot better I'd prefer to get that on my first try."
Also, you can't find "the best most stable ROM" using search because, well, that's up to a lot of different factors.
Often, the only way to make sure is by trying a lot of them yourself and see what works best for you.
Finding what works for you takes time and effort.
If you can show that you're willing to spend both, people here will be nothing but helpful. And I'm not saying you're not willing, I'm just saying that maybe that wasn't very clear from your first post. Know what I mean?
Good luck with setting up Android on your HD.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow..... good answer : )
You will all take the level of importance of this question as your own but I have had a query burning in my mind for a while.
I know that currently the Android OS is a BUILD and it takes a wm ROM to launch off, but I was wondering is there a way for the HTC LEO to run DROID ONLY and never have to associate itself or use WM ROMS ever again. Essentially I am asking is there a way to create a ANDROID ROM for the HTC LEO?
Note: Can the answers be open minded and not fuelled by programmers knowledge as most programmers I know will only give answers in the current boundaries of technology, but I do urge you to remember that at one point Computers were impossible...but they did it. I hope the programmers here do not take offence to this, I just want to know is it theoretically possible.
Thank you in advance.
norodaigh said:
You will all take the level of importance of this question as your own but I have had a query burning in my mind for a while.
I know that currently the Android OS is a BUILD and it takes a wm ROM to launch off, but I was wondering is there a way for the HTC LEO to run DROID ONLY and never have to associate itself or use WM ROMS ever again. Essentially I am asking is there a way to create a ANDROID ROM for the HTC LEO?
Note: Can the answers be open minded and not fuelled by programmers knowledge as most programmers I know will only give answers in the current boundaries of technology, but I do urge you to remember that at one point Computers were impossible...but they did it. I hope the programmers here do not take offence to this, I just want to know is it theoretically possible.
Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a work in progress. People is working on the bootloader and we are going to flash directly the rom in the phone.
Doesnt know yet the details.
Anyone else got more word?
Atleast a thousand threads about this, and once like yours every week. Its called NAND. Search for that
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
Search and read....
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
thread moved to Q&A.
norodaigh said:
Anyone else got more word?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
we got your word but its pretty obvious you have not read enough in this community
and your topic is not in its proper forum.
norpan111 said:
Atleast a thousand threads about this, and once like yours every week. Its called NAND. Search for that
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
just report any out of topic threads using the small triangle with exclamation mark
on the right upper hand corner of the post. so to alert the mods and
then it will be moved to general discussion
NAND http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=732160
Updates to the project http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=817261
I had also wondered about this as I just got a HD2 last week, my very first smartphone. I put Android on it and love it, I didn't care to much for Windows Mobile. If people would have developed apps for it like iOS and Android I would have stay with winmo but I really wanted that Sirius XM app
jigners said:
we got your word but its pretty obvious you have not read enough in this community
and your topic is not in its proper forum
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is pretty obvious isn't it, don't mind being a little nicer next time? Pretentious.
norodaigh said:
It is pretty obvious isn't it, don't mind being a little nicer next time? Pretentious.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should be glad that you got help at all. People get upset when other people want to know something and does zero research of their own. That's why first people gets annoyed sometimes ;d
Sent from my Htcclay's FroBread using XDA App
Ok guys lol,
I think the OP has got the gist of what your saying, lets keep the flames cool please, thanks.
Tim.
norpan111 said:
You should be glad that you got help at all. People get upset when other people want to know something and does zero research of their own. That's why first people gets annoyed sometimes ;d
Sent from my Htcclay's FroBread using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand what your saying but this is a 'community forum' everyone is here to help everyone or have I completely missed the point?
norodaigh said:
I understand what your saying but this is a 'community forum' everyone is here to help everyone or have I completely missed the point?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's a difference between helping and spoon-feeding. a ten second search would have avoided this whole thread.
Reno_79 said:
There's a difference between helping and spoon-feeding. a ten second search would have avoided this whole thread.
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Click to collapse
100% agree with this (i often say it too), with a few exceptions tho
the big NAND question being 1 of them, if you are fairly new to this scene, it can be info overload & without reading every thread this info is easy to miss.
how does "NAND" translate into Android Rom? unless you've been been around for a while you wont know.
kam333 said:
100% agree with this (i often say it too), with a few exceptions tho
the big NAND question being 1 of them, if you are fairly new to this scene, it can be info overload & without reading every thread this info is easy to miss.
how does "NAND" translate into Android Rom? unless you've been been around for a while you wont know.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
as much as i hate redundant threads like this, that's true.
true, but reading the stickies @ the top of each forum would have answered it,....
infact the verry first stickie in the HD2 android general forum is all about it!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=817261
there i even linked to it for those that cant find it...
kam333 said:
100% agree with this (i often say it too), with a few exceptions tho
the big NAND question being 1 of them, if you are fairly new to this scene, it can be info overload & without reading every thread this info is easy to miss.
how does "NAND" translate into Android Rom? unless you've been been around for a while you wont know.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks dude
I'm searching for the best replacement for my good old "Super" HD2.
I'm trying to decide between HTC Sensation or Samsung Galaxy S2.
Anyone can help me decide?
They are both very good phones and i'm thinking of trying the SGS2 because i have been a Big fan of HTC and Sence, but now I starting to get curious about SGS2.
Please give me some help decide.
Thanks
Hi,
Is this really the best place for such a question?
CLICK
Yes it is.
I already read alot about it on the net. But I'm searching for opinions of HD2 users, since the HD2 is a great phone (The best I had so far) but it's begining to become old.
RRibeiro said:
Yes it is.
I already read alot about it on the net. But I'm searching for opinions of HD2 users, since the HD2 is a great phone (The best I had so far) but it's begining to become old.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes,but this is a development forum for people with HD2.
Look here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1109
and on the galaxy forums.
People there HAVE the phones and can comment on them.
Ok, I got it.
I have post this on HD2/Android and I wanted to post on HD2 General.
Well I can't move my post, but if some moderator see this, please move it to the right forum.
I already saw that post that you mention, but as I said I wand the opinion of HD2 user
I had an HD2 before but did not like windows at all and there was not a suitable android release for it so I sold it.
I really liked the phone but was wondering if there is a good android replacement where everything works available for it now?
Thanks for any help
I use the BOYPPC SHIFTPDA DHD V18 Rom (Desire HD) on my HD and it works perfectly on it.
if you have TMOUS LEO1024 i would check out this ROM. i have found that its pretty much bug free (none that i've found anyway) and a great ROM overall. also a great fast/stable ROM would be RAFDROID HD found here.
if you need a guide on re-installing Android i would check this thread out
I have not bought one yet but I'm looking on Craig's list and will find one soon.
Are the ones you guys mentioned Gingerbread?
Thanks for your help
I've tried almost all available NAND builds for HD2 and I can say that I found only one stable and fast build which is NexusHD2-Gingerbread".
I've tried those big, ram eaters - HTC SENSE ROM's
The thing that convinced me to install it was obviously HTC Sense, but I realized that it's unless if I am not using it's widgets (facebook, twitter, messages, etc).
But that wasn't the main reason why I left these roms, the main reason was the performance. Booting took much longer than on normal clean non-sense rom, I had to wait until it stabilize itself after each boot (1-2 minutes, htc sense had to load up and other processes). Scrolling wasn't smooth as on clean rom. These roms are more likely designed for 1024mb hd2's because on 512 hd2's it just doesn't fit (i don't know how it works on 1024mb but i guess the same, the only reason why I said it is for 1024mb hd2's was because mostly every htc sense build requires sd parition). The phone did not respond as quick as on clean gingerbread build. I just think that camera is better than on clean rom, pictures looks nice, sharp with good contrast.
I've also tried MUI roms.
These roms are nice and simple, eye catchy UI and advanced settings. Ability to change lots of things such as boot image and sound, custom firewall, etc. everything can be easily found, just few taps, everything is nicely designed.
However it is not as quick as clean rom, it can hang somewhere, and not always completely translated from Chinese to English. You can customize it for your own needs.
Normal clean roms are the best in my opinion.
I've used mostly all different roms, Android and Windows 7, and I always come back to NexusHD2-Gingerbread rom. I think that the only thing that makes me changing this rom is it's simplicity. It is the cleanest rom I ever seen and quickest one (you just need to change home launcher to GOLAUNCHER as it make the phone super fast and responsible, because on standard one scrolling through apps lags).
So I prefer this rom : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=905060 thanks to it's fast booting, fast responding and stability.
HTC SENSE ROM's might have better benchmarks but believe me it can't be compared with Clean NexusHD2-Gingerbread rom. Every gameloft game
work flawlessly on it.
It is just my opinion from the experience with those roms.
Do we have to have this same topic re-created and re-cycled every single [email protected]*king day?
Its not hard to use search or go through a couple of pages, Its just pure lazyness to create this topic, pure and simple.
Second vote for Gingerbread http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=905060 It is just great and hassle-free, gave me no trouble of any kind.
As far as threads like this are concerned, I don't see why members can't ask for other members' opinions on what they like or dislike. Of course they can go and check out the available versions by going through the threads and posts, but personal recommendations would be the best way of finding out the outstanding work, rather than waste time going back and forth even after all the reading is done and all the problems are noted. It's not only time consuming, it can be daunting with the amount of information and releases that's out there. Perhaps we should run the best release poll and have it stickied to save time. After that whoever wants to try other things is free to rummage through the section and flash at their heart's desire.
@Gabriel51 your bound to get so many different answers because everyone likes different things as already pointed out
@dawid your right that if you dont use the widgets theres really no point at all so i have to give you that but lets talk about scores for a second. i personally clocked 41.something mflops on RAFDROID HD using linpack, a 2816 quadrant score & vellamo was only 29 points behind the dual core Sensation. now im not saying numbers are everything but you would have to admit thats pretty fast. although i really like the wifi calling feature available on the NexusHD2 ROM which im sadly missing :'( this feature alone is worth flashing that ROM
@TheATHEiST it does seem like this is covered on a daily basis from different people and a search would yeild results if people would ever use it. i will say though in all fairness that i use the search feature everytime im trying to find something but i feel the search function on this site is a little subpar causing it to be difficult at times to find what your looking for. most of the time i dont have any problem at all though.
TheATHEiST said:
Do we have to have this same topic re-created and re-cycled every single [email protected]*king day?
Its not hard to use search or go through a couple of pages, Its just pure lazyness to create this topic, pure and simple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did not ask you to come here and read this post! Nor did I ask for your opinion about my ability to discover what I needed through the search.
I'm looking for the most current information on this set-up because as of last Dec. it was not in the cards for me on this phone.
You have something constructive to contribute great! If not STFU!!!
Gabriel51 said:
I had an HD2 before but did not like windows at all and there was not a suitable android release for it so I sold it.
I really liked the phone but was wondering if there is a good android replacement where everything works available for it now?
Thanks for any help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please tell me ARE YOU KIDDING???
enigma1nz said:
As far as threads like this are concerned, I don't see why members can't ask for other members' opinions on what they like
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They can, thats not the point, The point is this is the same question, over and over and over, Why create the same topic and ask it again instead of reading one of the other topics? You are going to get just as relevant answers by reading them as you are creating another topic. All topics like this do is clutter the place up.
For example, If I was to get a new device tomorrow, I wouldnt go and create a silly topic like this in my new devices section as its common sense it will have already been asked and answered, Instead I would go and read the topics that already exist and try some roms out for myself. The fun part is learning and adapting.
Gabriel51 said:
I did not ask you to come here and read this post!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes you did when you created it.
Gabriel51 said:
Nor did I ask for your opinion about my ability to discover what I needed through the search.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No but it needed to be said.
Gabriel51 said:
I'm looking for the most current information on this set-up because as of last Dec. it was not in the cards for me on this phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then why not do some reading? There is plenty of threads to get you started, All it takes is a couple of mins to look around and get latest info and try some latest roms. There is also plenty of "best" and "most stable" topic already created.
Gabriel51 said:
You have something constructive to contribute great! If not STFU!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did have something constructive to say and I DID say it!
Gabriel51 said:
I did not ask you to come here and read this post! Nor did I ask for your opinion about my ability to discover what I needed through the search.
I'm looking for the most current information on this set-up because as of last Dec. it was not in the cards for me on this phone.
You have something constructive to contribute great! If not STFU!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You could search in the Nand development for your answer. Everybody Has their own opinion on a good rom. So do some reading and find your best choice Please be considerate with your Acronyms of speech.
TheATHEiST said:
I did have something constructive to say and I DID say it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 I've been away from the forums for a couple of months and nothing has changes, this isn't phones4u
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA Premium App
People come to this type of forum for help, some people "troll" looking for an opportunity to open their mouth spread their disease. I don't own the anti-Christ an explanation but I did search using the words in this topic.
There is a no stupid question for most educators and then there are those that expect you to glean through hoards of information in hopes of finding and discerning information relevant to ones needs.
I intend to continue to ask those with knowledge their opinion on topics such as this and those who wish to contribute understand then need to do so.
Thanks to all those that helped.
Gabriel51 said:
People come to this type of forum for help, some people "troll" looking for an opportunity to open their mouth spread their disease. I don't own the anti-Christ an explanation but I did search using the words in this topic.
There is a no stupid question for most educators and then there are those that expect you to glean through hoards of information in hopes of finding and discerning information relevant to ones needs.
I intend to continue to ask those with knowledge their opinion on topics such as this and those who wish to contribute understand then need to do so.
Thanks to all those that helped.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've had this argument a few times now. The point is if you all keep creating threads on topics that have already been Answered your making it harder for people to search for their answers because your cluttering up the forums with sh+t. I'm happy to spend some of MY time answering questions but when the op could of simply typed "revert hd2 to stock xda" into Google and found his answer it becomes quite tedious because this question does get asked everyday.
/edit and the op shouldn't be installing custom roms if he doesn't know how to remove them
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA Premium App
whynot66 said:
I've had this argument a few times now. The point is if you all keep creating threads on topics that have already been Answered your making it harder for people to search for their answers because your cluttering up the forums with sh+t. I'm happy to spend some of MY time answering questions but when the op could of simply typed "revert hd2 to stock xda" into Google and found his answer it becomes quite tedious because this question does get asked everyday.
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now how in the hell would I think of that term? "simply typed "revert hd2 to stock xda" "
It's like talking to the deliverance gang, I'm done here Bubba!!!
unsubscribed
Gabriel51 said:
Now how in the hell would I think of that term? "simply typed "revert hd2 to stock xda" "
It's like talking to the deliverance gang, I'm done here Bubba!!!
unsubscribed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good lol because I just wrote that thinking I was in a different thread lol
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA Premium App
htccraze said:
i really like the wifi calling feature available on the NexusHD2 ROM which im sadly missing :'(
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
T-Mobile WiFi Calling on NexusHD2-Gingerbread V2.8T: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1038784
whynot66 said:
Good lol because I just wrote that thinking I was in a different thread lol
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lmao ......
it doesnt really matter he doesnt even own an hd2
but he will be back probably with a new name
and start another thread just like this one