Related
i sure hope these get fixed in the coming months by our devs and cooks
i just got a chance to play with an old ATOM EXEC (64mb,qvga,520mhz.no 3g...etc). i was amazed on how much faster and snappier the device. i know that the screen has one fifth the pixels, but not everything is depending on graphics. here are some things i noticed ive grouped them into 5 differnt "benchmark classes
1- anything with any graphics effects(non 3d) like scrolling rotating...etc is infinitely smoother and cooler despite the lower resolution and crappier image quality. pointUI2 was a solid50fps vs only ~20fps on x1, fingermenu 1.10 was about 15-20fps vs only about 5fps, miniflow was about 30 fps vs an unusable ~5-6fps. zooming and panning with htc image viewer was butter smooth unlike the "good enough" on the x1. scrolling and navigating in UCweb feels a lot smoother on the atom
2-opening the windows directory takes about 1.5 seconds vs 4-5 seconds on my itje's 3.5rc1(one of the fastest roms i have tested. cold booting takes about half the time but thats to be expected due to the smaller windows folder.
3-opening demo PocketArtist is 6 seconds vs 8 on x1.
4-youtube videos using the application @normal quality setting does not lag at all. on my x1 it does sometimes when it is viewing while its finishing the download over wifi. m2d was not as good looking as tf3d but its so much smoother
5-navigating various parts of the OS (for example jumping from programs to settings-> clock-> connections - activesync- connections...etc) was just noticeably snappier on the EXEC. switching to landscape was faster on the X1 though
while the experience of the x1 is clearly better due to the screen,resolution,other phone features and all, i just cant but feel extremely disappointed with how things currently are especially the first observation.
I'm really interested in our cooks opinion on how performance may end up being improved in a major way in the coming few months in any of the above situations. I'm obviously interested in the first point as its very easy to notice compared to the other points. can we expect something worthwhile in terms of performance in wm6.5
btw i also tested a cooked dutty v4 htc diamond and i dont think the diamond was much better than the x1 in the performance.
I don't know if your x1 is customised or what, but so far my take is the X1 is the fastest winmo phones I ever own in the last few years, considering those I have owned include both smartphone and professional, wm5 and wm6 (touch pro, samsung i780, omnia, treo 500v, moto q9h, etc)
that reply was more fanboish than i would like it to be . i think the X1 (despite some problems) is the best htc phone made. but current generation QC-based phones (x1,tpro,hd and diamond) seem to be suffering from a performance problem and im not sure whats at blame.
are you noticing better performance than me?????? im using itje 3.5rc1
1- anything with any graphics effects(non 3d) like scrolling rotating...etc is infinitely smoother and cooler despite the lower resolution and crappier image quality. pointUI2 was a solid50fps vs only ~20fps on x1, fingermenu 1.10 was about 15-20fps vs only about 5fps, miniflow was about 30 fps vs an unusable ~5-6fps. zooming and panning with htc image viewer was butter smooth unlike the "good enough" on the x1. scrolling and navigating in UCweb feels a lot smoother on the atom
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na....im totalli with you that ATOM EXEC is way faster than X1. no doubt. my frnd got an atom. but u hav 2 consider this
1. x1 resoution is 5times more as you said. thats like going from 800x600 resolution to 1920x1250. dats a HUGE jump and just imagine if just a ram and cpu upgrade is enogh to handle that kind of load.
2. also, i noticed that you r running tf3d. now installing that copies bout 1400 files into your windows folder. dat will take time.
3 .i don agree with apps running faster. youtube or PocketArtist, both run lot faster on x1.
4. navigation (for example jumping from programs to settings-> clock-> connections - activesync- connections...etc) is faster because, there are more things installed in you x1 than in your atom. also dont forget the fact that atom runs on lower resolution. a QVGA app that takes 200KB of RAM might take upto 2MB of ram when converted to WVGA.
im not the best guy to understand the problem and the solution but if i were to guess it could be one or more of the following :
1- very slow performing on-board flash memory 2-unoptimised code in apps for w/vga
3- used 528mhz cpu is not fast enough
4-none of the common apps i mentioned makes use of the hardware(which means that they will be slow even on tegra + 1ghz cpus
5-HTC/SE made a bad design by putting slow cpu/graphics on a WVGA screen. they are biting more than what they can chew
as mentioned earlier. can we realistically expect a major change in performance if the cooks and devs here focus their effort on improving this
THE GRIZZ said:
im not the best guy to understand the problem and the solution but if i were to guess it could be one or more of the following :
1- very slow performing on-board flash memory 2-unoptimised code in apps for w/vga
3- used 528mhz cpu is not fast enough
4-none of the common apps i mentioned makes use of the hardware(which means that they will be slow even on tegra + 1ghz cpus
5-HTC/SE made a bad design by putting slow cpu/graphics on a WVGA screen. they are biting more than what they can chew
as mentioned earlier. can we realistically expect a major change in performance if the cooks and devs here focus their effort on improving this
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well first thing as mention your running TF3d and that take up alot of the speed on your x1 i did reinstall of my phone to the newest orginal rom from se without any kind of tf3d and gotta say my phone was twice as fast when it had tf3d on it..also most of todays apps are not optimized for the newest phones out on the marked second try some real test with some games (eks Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 - Call of Duty 2 -) (convert some mp3s or videos on the phone) Test with some emulators like fpsece - pocketsnes - picodrive then you will hopefully see what your x1 is good for
i noticed when i have lot of apps open ..the phone becomes slow..and simple functions such as opening Menu's takes more than 1 second.
so when this happens.,..i use the 'FreeRam' of SKTools...and clear up everything.
then it becomes fast as before.
lets not get sidetracked from the main issue that our x1(HD,tpro,diamond also) performs quite badly in certain 2D graphics applications as i mentioned in the first post. can the graphics accelerator on our x1 be used to accelerate.
the iphone had a 400mhz CPU with no graphics acceleration and half the memory and the interface of all its apps looks slick, smooth and cool. if the iphone can do this with its hardware, how come our phone cant. i think there is more to this then the resolution
THE GRIZZ said:
lets not get sidetracked from the main issue that our x1(HD,tpro,diamond also) performs quite badly in certain 2D graphics applications as i mentioned in the first post. can the graphics accelerator on our x1 be used to accelerate.
the iphone had a 400mhz CPU with no graphics acceleration and half the memory and the interface of all its apps looks slick, smooth and cool. if the iphone can do this with its hardware, how come our phone cant. i think there is more to this then the resolution
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One of the major problems here is windows mobile. It's just a mess.
Another is the resolution. Even on 2d, it makes a hell lot of difference. There's like ... 500% more pixels, with only 50% more performance.
THE GRIZZ said:
lets not get sidetracked from the main issue that our x1(HD,tpro,diamond also) performs quite badly in certain 2D graphics applications as i mentioned in the first post. can the graphics accelerator on our x1 be used to accelerate.
the iphone had a 400mhz CPU with no graphics acceleration and half the memory and the interface of all its apps looks slick, smooth and cool. if the iphone can do this with its hardware, how come our phone cant. i think there is more to this then the resolution
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If you did look around in XDA, you should know that Qualcomm's CPU is well known for it poor performance (especially for 2D/3D). X1/HD is already the best you can get compare to Kaiser but still far left behind PDA w/ Intel Xscale CPU. See for yourself for Diamond vs. Asus P565 (the current performance king):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZHYimU-VHM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCI6JyfmuPU&feature=related
Since it's bascially a hardware issue, there is not much we can do on it performance side. But X1 still my best one I can get base on it's overall features (3.5mm audio, USB 2.0, WVGA, UTMS w/ US's 850/1900), build quality, form factor, and of course it's look.
iPhone? It does have PowerVR chipset for graphic acceleration. And it's simply a joke for this date if I have to give up multi-tasking (for all 3rd party apps) for it's smooth and cool factor. My X1 is a workhorse and I want it to run IGo8 w/ Coreplayer player over A2DP/AVRCP concurrently.
Resolution does indeed play a big role. When I launch a program that needs WGAFIXv3 running, i notice how the framerate is practically doubled....
Hopefully Windows Mobile 6.5 will do justice just as Windows 7 is doing TREMENDOUS justice in terms of speed/performance. I finally appreciate the direction Microsoft is taking. It seems that ever since the introduction of Windows Media Player 7 (all versions up to 6 loaded in a SNAP and then 7 and up started taking forever to open unless you upgrade to the latest/fastest PC), back in the day, Microsoft's norm was to build more and more bulkier mega-code-loading software and this rubbed off on the mobile side of things too. Even SQL Server Express 2005 takes sooooooo long to load on PC's. Everything of theirs needed soooo much disk access to open up until Windows 7 came along.
So yeah I'm hoping a slimlined approach on the mobile platform will redeem the Windows Mobile brand
Diamond vs. Asus P565 (the current performance king):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZHYi...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCI6J...eature=related
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these things in the video are very CPU intensive stuff. the stuff im complaining about is far simpler stuff
i am talking about simple none 2d graphics intensive image scrolling and simple dialog boxes movements. surly this stuff is not that hard to handle. decoding mpeg4 video at full screen is surly FAAAAAR more work and yet the x1 does an OK job hadling it. choking at something like displaying dialog boxes, schrolling screen full of text, handling menu selections...etc fingermenu,ucweb, miniflow, album, s2v are hardly graphics intensive stuff
question: is anyone noticing much better results then mine on a lite or even naked ROM
anything with any graphics effects(non 3d) like scrolling rotating...etc is infinitely smoother and cooler despite the lower resolution and crappier image quality. pointUI2 was a solid50fps vs only ~20fps on x1, fingermenu 1.10 was about 15-20fps vs only about 5fps, miniflow was about 30 fps vs an unusable ~5-6fps. zooming and panning with htc image viewer was butter smooth unlike the "good enough" on the x1. scrolling and navigating in UCweb feels a lot smoother on the atom
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I have replied to your post on the Turbo X1 thread, there are some answers, but maybe not the magic bullet you and I have been both looking for.
after messing around to get speedbooster to work. i managed assign higher priority to some of the apps that are suffering. its giving some worthwhile enhancements nothing major though.
im begening to think that the only way we can get get improved performance and iphone-like "experiance" is for all the software need to be re-written to use the graphics hardware of the QC chipset. that does not look very likely even on future software since the majority of the avalable phones dont have it. writing software for wm requires it to be written for the lowest common denomiator hardware.
software for LCD hardware will continue to make WM software a bit ugly for a very long time indeed
I am quite mystified by threads such as these but I put it down to two things... 1, I am not such an intense nor knowledgable user as the OP of the thread and 2, I dont use my phone in the same way or do not expect it to be used as I would my laptop or have the same level of software as the OP of the thread...
TBH I have been amazed by the capability of this phone and am pleasantly surprised time and again by its speed, functionality and performance... most of my programs are up and running in incredibly short order, I can access menus and the like almost instantaneously and even the windows folder (previously the worst folder to access using file explorer time wise) is much faster now when I open it... (I have upgraded to the R2A ROM and its much much better)... I find that videos are very watchable and play with no lag and the audio/video in sync... overall its exactly what it says on the tin in my ever so humble experience... although in my own admission I am not very savvy when it comes to these things so perhaps I am misunderstanding the fact that it is supposed to be as fast and capable as my laptop...
even the new generation htc phones (diamond2, touchpro2 )are using the same QC msm7200a present in all common WM w/vga phones http://www.htc.com/www/product/touchdiamond2/specification.html .
i think its about time software development should focused on creeating two versions of the same software
-qvga for compatibility with any phohe (including non graphics accelerated vga phones)
-w/vga version with hardware acceleration since all htcphones released since the kiaser use it
Shadowdh, i think the x1 is the best htc-made phone ever. but i dont understand why many people(you included) are ignoring (or not noticing) the fact that its quite slow in certain aspects that i have highlighted in the first post
THE GRIZZ said:
Shadowdh, i think the x1 is the best htc-made phone ever. but i dont understand why many people(you included) are ignoring (or not noticing) the fact that its quite slow in certain aspects that i have highlighted in the first post
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The Grizz,
I believe it's similar to the whole issue of being able to notice "ghosting" on LCD screens. I personally know what it is, but yet I don't care enough to want to bother about it. For others, some people may not know what ghosting is until you show it to them and once you have "opened their eyes", they irrevocably develop the habit of constantly taking note as it happens on their screens.
And I believe this is ultimately the same issue with the issues you describe. Some people are just really content and amazed with the fact that such a small little bugger can still pack a punch. Sure, it'll slip up once or there, but for the most part, people are happy with what they've spent on the phone.
My 3 cents,
Cheers.
THE GRIZZ said:
1- very slow performing on-board flash memory
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Maybe the SD card tuneup could help you speeding up the off-board flash memory goving you more speed from SDHC then internal flash...
THE GRIZZ said:
3- used 528mhz cpu is not fast enough
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One of the basic science rules is: if you gain on one thing you have to give in on other things.
Higher speed means higher power consumption. In time a higher speed will be possible with the same power consumption because the cpu size becomes smaller. But for that you will have to wait.
So what do you want? A speedy phone with unacceptable power consumption or do you want to timetravel to get the newest technology before we can imagine how it should look like ?
Honestly if i get flamed its bs but what ever.
My question is will the Dream just be ignore in the future for the basic fact that we can't update our hardware, while Google pushes out UI's like Rosie and more sophisticated one's in future. We've already noticed how much it lags with Rosie whats going to happen in 8-12 months when phones like the I7500 come to play with better hard ware and they make updates to those. Will the G1 suffer and thus be stuck on roms like CupeCake? I mean we are already seeing the limits that it can handle without to much lag.
Like any piece of hardware, it gets outdated. However as long as dev are kind enough to work on new ROMs for us, most likely there will be new additions, widgets, applications etc for us to use in the future.
I'm quite excited by the multi-core ARM-X processors coming out for mobile devices, plus more powerful GPUs (the iPhoneG S has a scaled down version of what's to come next year!) and hopefully Android can support such processors too.
For us G1 owners at the moment though you might as well enjoy it. I mean I don't believe I've owned a mobile previously where we had so much choice between ROMs and how fast development is... (*looks at Sony Ericsson with their slow P900 firmware upgrades, Nokia N95 Symbian upgrades etc*).
I think you're going to see the "base" Android experience (the Launcher, the bundled platform apps, etc) will require more or less the same level of computing power in the future as it consumes today. It's good practice to keep a consistent, maintainable standard and then build from there. So that's what you're seeing with Rosie, where 3rd parties like HTC add on these gaudy and poorly programmed interfaces. By producing these inefficient and cpu-intensive apps and interfaces, HTC can essentially nudge you to hardware upgrades.
But the core of Android, the stuff that comes out of 1600 Ampitheatre Parkway, should remain runnable on Dream for atleast a while. Google is aiming to have Android be a general purpose embedded systems operating system. In order to be flexible to all the types of devices Android can potentially run on, it has to have a relatively low baseline.
What you said. I think we'll see a longer life of the G1 than we've seen with past phones because of the degree of flexibility we have with it. Of course there are going to be things designed for better hardware that we won't be able to use, but Jashu's right. Not all hardware that comes out running android is automatically going to be better than the G1. As long as there's devs that have a G1, you'll continue to see development for it.
jashsu said:
I think you're going to see the "base" Android experience (the Launcher, the bundled platform apps, etc) will require more or less the same level of computing power in the future as it consumes today. It's good practice to keep a consistent, maintainable standard and then build from there. So that's what you're seeing with Rosie, where 3rd parties like HTC add on these gaudy and poorly programmed interfaces. By producing these inefficient and cpu-intensive apps and interfaces, HTC can essentially nudge you to hardware upgrades.
But the core of Android, the stuff that comes out of 1600 Ampitheatre Parkway, should remain runnable on Dream for atleast a while. Google is aiming to have Android be a general purpose embedded systems operating system. In order to be flexible to all the types of devices Android can potentially run on, it has to have a relatively low baseline.
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imbonez9 said:
Honestly if i get flamed its bs but what ever.
My question is will the Dream just be ignore in the future for the basic fact that we can't update our hardware, while Google pushes out UI's like Rosie and more sophisticated one's in future. We've already noticed how much it lags with Rosie whats going to happen in 8-12 months when phones like the I7500 come to play with better hard ware and they make updates to those. Will the G1 suffer and thus be stuck on roms like CupeCake? I mean we are already seeing the limits that it can handle without to much lag.
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Funny you should mention the i7500... it is essentially the same as the *lower spec* htc magic, i.e. the same chipset, cpu. Actually, it has *less* RAM than htc dream (128 vs 192) -- magic comes with 192 or.. 288 (depending on what the provider ordered). The main advantages are that its got more flash onboard (though it is yet to be seen if the whole flash is usable for app installation or if it is restricted to some small amount), slightly better camera with flash, and OLED capacitive touchscreen (vs TFT/LCD capacitive). In all, the lower RAM will make it perform WORSE than any of the current HTC-android devices, including the Dream.
Have a look, its not that impressive: http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_i7500-2791.php
So far i have tried NFS undercover, Flight commander and Boom Blox.
They are all running with some lag. not smooth at all.
Is anyone else noticing this?
Update: I just hard reset my device to see if the problem is caused by something i installed. After a hard reset the OpenGL games are still lagging which is very frustrating. I had the TG01 before and all these games were running fine. what a huge disappointed from the HD2!
Ya the Phone is quite new just yet even HTC admitted the original ROM's performance is not what it should be and are working on an update. It should be sorted soon so don't panic
Also as soon as the SPL is cracked and the modders start playing with ROMs, expect to see performance improve even more than stock ROMs
^^^^^^
It's simply unacceptable for us or HTC to expect people to patch things up through hacking their phones by SPL and installing custom ROMs from XDA.
I reckon that less than half of future HD2 owners will know how to flash custom ROMs into their phones.
This is quite a dissapointing news indeed...these things should work out of the box.
jagnet said:
Ya the Phone is quite new just yet even HTC admitted the original ROM's performance is not what it should be and are working on an update.
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I only see something similar on italian rom not the others.
Let's try to narrow this down a little as i think there is a problem with the drivers on the device. the HD2 itself is super fast, it is just opengl games that lag.
If you own an HD2 please post if you see a lag when playing OpenGL games, the name of the game and your ROM version.
If you do not see a lag please post the same.
I am using WWE 1.43.479.2 ROM and treid the follwing:
NFS undercover: lags in portrait, less lag in landscape.
Boom Blox: Lags in both portrait and landscape
Flight commander: Lags in landscape
Tower Defence: lags in landscape
Xtrakt: no lag at all
Electopia (openGL ES 2.0): no lag
It could be due to the fact that games like NFS were written for MSM72xx processors specifically and have their own drivers that don't work well with Snapdragon...
Just to clear up a few misconceptions:
- HTC has acknowledged that there are performance issues with a particular ROM, however, as far as we know, these performance issues have absolutely nothing to do with OpenGL games. They affect the HD2's general performance doing non-3D stuff. So far as one can tell, these issues don't seem to affect the British version of the phone. They were discovered by an Italian site. Distribution of HD2's in Italy has been halted. I heard one rumour that the same thing has happened in France.
- HTC never puts proper hardware drivers on their phones - never has and quite possibly never will. If you check out this website you'll see that complaints about lack of proper drivers on HTC phones date back a good three years, and pretty much every phone HTC has ever made has had similar issues. If you go back four or more years, there were no drivers then either; but the hardware HTC bought from Qualcomm ran (for its time) fairly fast even without them, so it wasn't too much of an issue. The trouble started when Qualcomm's latest hardware didn't reach its advertised level of performance without proper drivers.
Three years ago, nothing ran with proper acceleration on HTC's phones, not even HTC's own software. Nowadays the software that is actually built into the phone can make use of hardware acceleration, but third party software that you install yourself typically can't.
This doesn't just apply to 3D acceleration, it causes problems with (for example) video playback on most HTC phones; Coreplayer (3rd party video player) runs a lot slower than HTCAlbum or Windows Media Player on HTC phones, but it runs faster on many other phones. (This is unlikely to be a practical problem on the HD2, as the CPU is powerful enough that Coreplayer can play anything you might reasonably want to play using the CPU alone; but it's a real problem on phones like the original Touch HD, the Touch Diamond2 and Touch Pro2).
- The blame for this is (arguably) shared between HTC and Qualcomm (the company that makes the chips HTC uses in its phones). Qualcomm has several different prices that they charge for their chips, depending on the level of software support that you buy with them. As I understand it, HTC chooses to pay the amount which allows their own software to get proper hardware support, but they won't pay the more expensive rate which would allow them to make a phone which offers hardware acceleration to third party products. (By contrast, Toshiba pays the full rate). To what extent this is HTC's fault for not paying and to what extent it is Qualcomm's fault for charging more than HTC can afford is unclear.
- The chances of anyone on XDA dev reverse-engineering an OpenGL driver for the Snapdragon chipset in the near future are, I would say, fairly slim. It's not impossible: a guy called Neo has produced a Direct3D driver for the older Qualcomm chipset used in phones like the Touch Pro and Touch Pro2. (See here). However, it's not on a par with what Qualcomm would produce, even after several years of work.
- It's possible that someone might be able to rip off a driver by stealing files from the ROM image of a TG01 or a NeoTouch - however, even if that worked, that would be illegal. Such a driver couldn't be distributed via this website or even advertised on it, otherwise Qualcomm would sue the website for intellectual property theft. So, if you really want to get the entire XDA developers website permanently shut down, then a good way to go about it would be to post here asking for someone to produce a pirated driver.
- The game Xtrakt is designed to directly access Qualcomm hardware; effectively it bundles a 3D library and a hard-wired driver within the game itself, rather than depending on support from the software on the phone. Consequently, the fact that Xtrakt runs smoothly doesn't mean that the phone can accelerate anything else. It's too early to be certain, but it looks as though Electopia may use the same approach.
- The upshot of all this is that I wouldn't get your hopes up for proper 3D acceleration on the HD2 in the foreseeable future.
EDIT: Note that the above is correct as I understand it but if you feel you have a better understanding than I do on any of these points, then feel free to correct me!
vangrieg said:
It could be due to the fact that games like NFS were written for MSM72xx processors specifically and have their own drivers that don't work well with Snapdragon...
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Xtrakt was written specifically for MSM72xx processors, and (according to this thread) is lag-free on the HD2. (Unless there's a Snapdragon-specific version of it that I'm not aware of). I would speculate that it's the other way round - games with hard-wired acceleration (like Xtrakt and possibly Electopia) run okay, but anything which expects the platform to handle 3D acceleration doesn't.
techdave said:
It's simply unacceptable for us or HTC to expect people to patch things up through hacking their phones by SPL and installing custom ROMs from XDA.
I reckon that less than half of future HD2 owners will know how to flash custom ROMs into their phones.
This is quite a dissapointing news indeed...these things should work out of the box.
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I find it hard to disgagree with any of that.
but i do see the drivers under the Windows folder. they file names are identical to those in the tg01 so the drivers are there fit the games only the games don't run very well.
they do however run very well on the tg01
AFAIK, NFS also comes with its own driver. I may be wrong though.
techdave said:
^^^^^^
It's simply unacceptable for us or HTC to expect people to patch things up through hacking their phones by SPL and installing custom ROMs from XDA.
I reckon that less than half of future HD2 owners will know how to flash custom ROMs into their phones.
This is quite a dissapointing news indeed...these things should work out of the box.
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come on guys, this happen to all kind of phones and it is absolutely normal, where on earth anyone of us see a perfect phone with perfect rom???? are you guys just expecting too much?? give HTC some time, HD2 is easily the best phone ever made and I would consider it is finally a good phone in the decade?
precsmo said:
come on guys, this happen to all kind of phones and it is absolutely normal, where on earth anyone of us see a perfect phone with perfect rom???? are you guys just expecting too much?? give HTC some time, HD2 is easily the best phone ever made and I would consider it is finally a good phone in the decade?
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That's some nice sweet talking there. HTC won't do anything if it's not affecting the general performance of the phone. It's the same as with my current phone the Polaris. HTC never did anything, even when many many ppl complained about bad 3D performance. If there was any real alternative to the HD2 I wouldn't buy from HTC again.
So I suppose it's not a big deal that WM doesn't have many modern 3D games, because the HD2 won't be able to run them smooth anyway.
EDIT: @Shasarak: Thanks for post #7. I agree and think you hit bullseye.
precsmo said:
come on guys, this happen to all kind of phones and it is absolutely normal, where on earth anyone of us see a perfect phone with perfect rom???? are you guys just expecting too much??
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There's a colossal difference between expecting a ROM to be "perfect" and mererly expecting it not to contain any major bugs. The latter is entirely reasonable. There's also nothing unreasonable about expecting hardware to be shipped with the drivers needed to use it properly (if that does turn out to be the problem here).
Shasarak said:
There's a colossal difference between expecting a ROM to be "perfect" and mererly expecting it not to contain any major bugs. The latter is entirely reasonable. There's also nothing unreasonable about expecting hardware to be shipped with the drivers needed to use it properly (if that does turn out to be the problem here).
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I agree but be advised that the drivers are there..they just for some reason don't perform very well.
On the other hand the drivers on the TG01 were performing very well with the games i tested (but the device was very buggy and poorly built, thus i don't have it anymore), so maybe we can copy the drivers from the TG01 to the HD2 and it will work well?
so much for the god of mobile CPU's in the snapdragon....
Then again, it's not snapdragon's fault..
niknik76 said:
Then again, it's not snapdragon's fault..
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Yeah - the the TG01 has a Snapdragon chipset too, but the games work on that - the problem is specific to the HD2, it's not a problem with Snapdragon phones in general.
vangrieg said:
AFAIK, NFS also comes with its own driver. I may be wrong though.
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Well, you could be right; but if you are, and that's what's causing the problem, then why does it run lag-free on a TG01 but not on an HD2?
Shasarak said:
So, if you really want to get the entire XDA developers website permanently shut down, then a good way to go about it would be to post here asking for someone to produce a pirated driver.
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clubtech said:
so maybe we can copy the drivers from the TG01 to the HD2 and it will work well?
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Producing a pirated driver, hosting it here, and someone copying drivers from a TG01 to a HD2 are two different things right?
Well, as I am using Sense 2.5 on a Touch Pro2, I do know that I cannot expect it to run fast, but I'm curious whether it is possible to remove some "effects", like the reflection of cover arts in the music tab, to speed the whole thing up a bit.
Any input greatly appreciated!
The only response I got when I asked that question was that we do not have the snap dragon processor....sounded like a bogus answer to me.
Why would that be a bogus answer? We're still talking about a device that's almost twice (!) as fast (only counting mhz). I can imagine that Sense2.5 compared to 2.1 asks for more processing power.
I've tried different 2.5 and 2.1 roms, and although I really love the 2.5 interface I'd rather have a snappy device. I did try to run utilities like ram cleaning/advanced config/etc to try and make the ui run faster, but it wasn't sufficient enough for me. The reason to try out some 2.5 roms was the integration of the music player, contacts tab and other nifty changes like entering an appointment. I really hope these will be available in the future as a separate cab or something.
The snapdragon processor is more than twice as fast than our old clunker msm72xx, in benchmarks and nearly in sheer mhz. Check out the benchmarks yourselves, the Snapdragon destroys our in every category. Also, chainfire has made some modifications to the snapdragon driver which in some areas has more than doubled performance.
http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2009/09/28/htc-leo-hd2-benchmarks/
http://pocketnow.com/thought/competitive-benchmarks-hd-vs-hd2
Overall the HD2 ousts the HD (runs a msm720x same as our TP2) by 275% overall and nearly 2000% in specific categories. Then as I said, chainfire has boosted the snapdragon abilities well beyond stock.
Seen here : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=592663
Amazing work.
There isn't a slight difference, there is a huge difference, the Snapdragon takes our msm720x to town and back again.
What I meant by that was I find it hard to believe that our current processor could not handle something as simple as making the manila graphics in both the music and pics tab snappier when going from portrait to landscape. think about it. we need a processor thats twice as fast as our to handle that? thats what I meant by bogus.
I do not understand what is in the slightest bit bogus. The software (m2.5) wasn't designed or optimized for our current hardware, how could we ever expect it to run as fast as it does for the hardware it was deisgned for? Esp when the hardware it was designed for is more than twice as fast as our current hardware...
This is like unto complaining that your old PII Dell desktop doesn't run Crysis well, I'm sorry but the argument has no grounds.
ok........
Scrtcwlvl said:
I do not understand what is in the slightest bit bogus. The software (m2.5) wasn't designed or optimized for our current hardware, how could we ever expect it to run as fast as it does for the hardware it was deisgned for? Esp when the hardware it was designed for is more than twice as fast as our current hardware...
This is like unto complaining that your old PII Dell desktop doesn't run Crysis well, I'm sorry but the argument has no grounds.
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I think you misunderstood my question in the first place ...
I'm not aiming to complain about Sense 2.5 not running as fast on a Touch Pro2 as on a HD2, I simply asked, whether it was possible (with some capabilities in editing manila files) to remove effects, like the reflection of album arts or animations or something similiar, to speed it up.
I don't want a miracle to happen, I'm just asking whether the effects can be customized to make them appropriate for our device (performance wise).
As I have seen that in the new max 2.6 beta the flip animation on the homescreen was removed due to lacking perfomance on the Touch Pro2/HD for example, I thought that this might be possible.
Hope somebody who doesn't just want to tell me the performance difference of the Pro2/HD2 might answer me ^^
All of my previous mobiles were purely phones that were used for that purpose only. When I decided I needed mobile email etc. for my business a friend who had an HD suggested the HD2 and after reading all the reviews which were pretty unanimous in praising the HD2 and Sense but were very critical about WM, I decided to go for it.
Now what is puzzling me is why so many people are critical of WM? I think it's really rather good and as a business user does eveything that I would ask of it. In fact any problems I've encountered have been with sense and as far as I can see this seems to be the case on this forum as well.
I realise that in it's present incarnation WM is designed for a stylus but on the HD2 with its superb screen I don't have much of a problem using any of the native apps and of course there are plenty of third party apps around.
So am I missing something because I just can't see the downside?
If your introduction to Win Mobile is a device like the HD2 and the resulting user experience then you would be baffled as to what is wrong with it. But keep in mind that the HD2 is exceptional in hardware compared to EVERY OTHER Win Mo device that has ever existed, bar some exceptions.
Most other devices were woefully underpowered to handle an O.S based around a desktop style U.I, never was really finger friendly and the web browser was terrible really until Opera and the others. For me personally, Palm made Win Mobile tolerable to use as well as HTC.
I absolutely agree with you - I have been using WM for years, and at times have used Symbian/UIQ. I used Symbian because my operator gave me an upgrade every year and I was told that the SonyEricsson P series was the best thing for mobile smartphones.
The journalists, almost to a man, agreed with that assessment, showering praise on the P800, P900 and P910.
I do not understand it - to my mind, and for my money, WM beat UIQ unhesitatingly in terms of raw functionality and yet I groaned as I read review after review showering praise on S-E phones and UIQ, saying it was the way of things to come, while damning WM at the same time. There were LOADS of things WM could do that UIQ could not. It was the same when I looked at the ungainly and unusable Symbian Series 60 devices - no touch screen!!! It seems almost laughable now.
At the moment, the journos, who hunt in packs, have it in for WM, and they lose no time in criticising either the OS or any device that uses it.
I agree that WM has long been due for an overhaul, and Apple's iToy has been welcome competition in forcing MS either to upgrade the OS (which it looks like they are doing) or abandon it (which it seems they are not). To my mind, the HD2 just shows what WM is capable of - the best being that it is all there, now, not promiseware.
It is good to hear someone new to WM saying what you are saying - welcome to the club!
rjstep3
So am I missing something because I just can't see the downside?
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Yeah these days i would agree there seems not to be a downside worth talking about .. The HD2 makes this tired os shine coupled with sense on top it looks modern and works very well .
I come from an iPhone 3G and im really happy with my HD2 and am impressed at the stability of the phone even on these cooked roms .. The 3G was getting dull and the HD2 was just what was needed.
However this was not always my impression or WinMo, i had an HTC Magician many years ago and i can say with 100% truth this was the worst phone i ever owned . If the battery ran out, and it would in a good few hours, the thing would hard reset and wipe all my data, leaving me to recover from backup, HTC issue or windows i do not know but it was bad .. , Windows was so unstable i would be rebooting the damn thing 1 or more times per day .. horrid .. There are many other faults i used to experience on this phone (phone lol) but i have blocked them out my mind for good.
I avoided windows phones for many a year deciding to use, Ericsson, Nokia, Samsung and Apple instead .. When the HD2 came out and i needed an upgrade, all the reviews i read and watched made me rethink my position .. Very happy i did
You're bound to think Windows Mobile is wonderful if you've never used any of its rivals. You need to spend some time on an iPhone 3GS, and then on a high-end Android phone (the Google Nexus One, for example) to get a balanced opinion.
As LordLugard points out, the HD2 is (in many respects) the best Windows Mobile phone out there; and it achieves this by compensating for, or simply hiding, many of the OS' deficiencies. It's a bit like a well-laid-out house with a monster lurking in the cellar - so long as you stay upstairs, you're fine.
Most of the day-to-day operation on an HD2 is not controlled directly by Windows Mobile, but has been skinned by HTC as part of its "Sense UI" front-end. If you ever have to venture beneath that, then things get much uglier. For example, go onto the settings tab, Data Services, and click ActiveSync. This gets you into the SenseUI screen for ActiveSync settings; looks quite nice, very finger-friendly. But you'll notice this is incomplete: there's no way to set the Peak Times. To do this you need to go Start Menu, Tools, ActiveSync, Menu, Schedule. Now you're in the default Windows Mobile screen for controlling the same settings (as opposed to the Sense UI skin). Notice the immediate visual difference, and how difficult it is to click the checkboxes accurately with your finger? Raw Windows Mobile is like that all the way through; it's just that HTC has managed to hide it most of the time.
Performance is another issue. Windows Mobile 6.5 is based on the Windows CE 5.2 kernel - which hasn't been seriously updated in 5 or 6 years. That means core OS operations are coded in such a way that they cannot take full advantage of any CPU that was designed more recently than that. This means that Windows Mobile always runs much slower than competing OSes on the same hardware. It also (for other reasons) is a memory hog. Again, you don't notice this so much on an HD2, because the Snapdragon processor is fast enough, and there's enough memory, that even Windows Mobile generally doesn't slow it down too much. But there are exceptions. If you look at the specifications for HTC's not-quite-released-yet Bravo phone, for example, this runs on very similar hardware to the HD2 (also based on the Snapdragon chipset) but it offers playback of 720p video clips, and the ability to capture 720p video using the camera. The reason the HD2 can't do is because it's running Windows Mobile.
There are general usability issues, too. Notice how many "tweaks" are advertised on this forum that require specially written utility programmes or registry edits to enable? On other OSes you generally don't need to do this: everything works in a sensible way as soon as you take the phone out of the box. Windows Mobile phones are very much ongoing projects - it takes weeks or even months to get them working the way you want. If you're the sort of person who enjoys that, great. And, arguably, if you are an inveterate tweaker, WinMo offers a higher degree of customisability. But many people prefer a phone that just works; and Android and iPhone do a much better job of that.
There are many other issues, too; the complete lack of multi-touch support in the OS is an obvious one.
I'm new to windows mobile, and have to say I don't get why it's put down so much. Sure it's taken me a couple of weeks to get my head around, and sure you may have to tweak settings to get the phone how you want it, but that's half the fun (although sometimes can cause you intense frustration). I've come from an iphone, and whilst this works better out of the box and you don't need to tweak as much, there were still things I wanted to tweak to get it just how I wanted it, but couldn't unless I jailbroke it. When I did this it was much slower at times and more glitchy. I tried several jailbreaks and they were all the same. Blackra1n was the best I found but still upset the phone.
Anyway, back onto winmo, my only negative comments about it have already been mentioned by others. It's not as finger friendly as other OS's, including sense, but it's not that bad really. And it's a little ugly, but again not that bad. The good points far out-weigh the bad imo
Shasarak said:
Performance is another issue. Windows Mobile 6.5 is based on..... this means that Windows Mobile always runs much slower than competing OSes on the same hardware..... is a memory hog..... The reason the HD2 can't do is because it's running Windows Mobile.
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Again trying to spread that lie?
I get the feeling that you're paid by Apple to spread this kind of FUD...
Edited to remove response to a misplaced quote .. (it was out of place given context now above)
Cass67 said:
So this is not true ? I was under impression that from the system info pages this is a WinCE 5.02 based OS .. Wrong ?
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Sorry, the quote was misplaced.
It is a WinCE based OS but that does not at all mean that it's slower than in any noticeable way and it has nothing to do with the ability of playing HD video.
Neither iPhone nor Android make use of any of the ARMv7 instructions in order to play HD video (and btw. the iPhone doesn't officially play HD video). Moreover, if you compare Android, Windows Mobile and iPhone OS on similar hardware, you can see that Windows Mobile is just as fast in most of the day-to-day tasks and even faster at some. And lastly, iPhone OS is much more of a memory hog than Windows Mobile, which you can see by comparing the RAM usage of both, and in addition to that, Windows Mobile has much better memory management (which is probably one of the reasons why Apple doesn't allow multitasking).
freyberry said:
It is a WinCE based OS but that does not at all mean that it's slower than in any noticeable way and it has nothing to do with the ability of playing HD video.
Sorry, the quote was misplaced.
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Heh, no worries ..
freyberry said:
(and btw. the iPhone doesn't officially play HD video).
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Officially, no. Unofficially it can play 1080p video. See, for example, http://gizmodo.com/5045466/the-iphone-handles-1080p-video-just-fine
freyberry said:
Moreover, if you compare Android, Windows Mobile and iPhone OS on similar hardware, you can see that Windows Mobile is just as fast in most of the day-to-day tasks and even faster at some.
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I'd have more patience for that claim if it were not self-evidently untrue. Android apps can be a bit held back by the whole Java architecture, sure; but what exactly is your explanation as to why the HTC Bravo can both play and record 720p when the HD2 can't, despite being based on virtually identical hardware? It's clearly nothing whatever to do with drivers and hardware acceleration. There are plenty of applications that offer hardware-accelerated playback under Windows Mobile. On the HD2 we get hardware-accelerated MP4's and WMV's in Pocket Media Player. On the TG01, the specially customised version of Coreplayer that the phone ships with offers hardware-accelerated playback of any codec that CorePlayer supports. And yet neither application on either phone can play 720p video at acceptable speeds.
I recall that your stated position the last time we discussed this was that a hardware-accelerated version of CorePlayer could not possibly exist (see http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=622393&page=2 posts #18 and #20); this despite the fact that it ships with every TG01 sold and that several people had previously downloaded it from this forum and run it on an HD2 (see http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=613355 ). You then went on to demand that I supply evidence in support of claims I hadn't made. Frankly, your credibility on this point is in tatters; so, can we just drop it, please? Stop trying to derail the thread.
(And before anyone asks, no, I cannot tell you where to download the TG01 version of CorePlayer.)
Officially, no. Unofficially it can play 1080p video.
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That's why I said officially.
hat exactly is your explanation as to why the HTC Bravo can both play and record 720p when the HD2 can't
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Because the Bravo has drivers, the HD2 has not. It's as simple as that. If anyone would make drivers for the HD2, it could play HD video as well.
And by the way, those drivers do exist in the labs of Qualcomm.
Since you are unable to point me to the proof of the Coreplayer version playing 720p in EVERY format, your post is just empty words. Looking at the thread you linked, I can absolutely not see any proof of that. Instead, I can see proof of what I am saying.
Do you always post random links in order to "prove" your lies and hope nobody reads them?
Additionally, your claims that WM is responsible for the lack of HD video playback capabilities contradict the existence of a Coreplayer version for WM that plays HD video. It also proves my point that it's all about drivers and has nothing to do with the operating system.
Truth is, the HD2's inability to play HD video as absolutely NOTHING to do with Windows Mobile. Moreover, your claims that Windows Mobile is in any way slower than the other OSs is just wrong. It is not only just as fast, it also has much better memory management than for example the iPhone, which is why Apple doesn't allow multitasking and while you can run lots of applications simultaneously on a WM device with 128MB RAM, it's almost impossible to send more than one or two applications to the background on a hacked iPhone 3G with the same amount of RAM, which proves that your claims of WM being a "memory hog" are utter bull****, just like all the rest of what you allege.
I'm not going to accept that you spread that kind of bull**** here on the forum. You're a liar (or maybe paid for spreading FUD), and your insistence on those false (and even contradictory) claims is not only ridiculous, it doesn't make them true either.
Same here, I cant find any Major flows in the OS yet!
But when you read about WM in Google, forums! they scare you about the problems!
Yes sure it dosent have as much Apps as other Mobile Os, But every app i need i got in here and a damn fast phone
But sure if compared to older phones it might be unfair.
I am 100% sure that I read in a tech review that Windows Mobile disables the HD functions built into the Snapdragon. Is this not so?
donalgodon said:
I am 100% sure that I read in a tech review that Windows Mobile disables the HD functions built into the Snapdragon. Is this not so?
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No, this is not so.
Shasarak said:
You're bound to think Windows Mobile is wonderful if you've never used any of its rivals. You need to spend some time on an iPhone 3GS, and then on a high-end Android phone (the Google Nexus One, for example) to get a balanced opinion.
As LordLugard points out, the HD2 is (in many respects) the best Windows Mobile phone out there; and it achieves this by compensating for, or simply hiding, many of the OS' deficiencies. It's a bit like a well-laid-out house with a monster lurking in the cellar - so long as you stay upstairs, you're fine.
Most of the day-to-day operation on an HD2 is not controlled directly by Windows Mobile, but has been skinned by HTC as part of its "Sense UI" front-end. If you ever have to venture beneath that, then things get much uglier. For example, go onto the settings tab, Data Services, and click ActiveSync. This gets you into the SenseUI screen for ActiveSync settings; looks quite nice, very finger-friendly. But you'll notice this is incomplete: there's no way to set the Peak Times. To do this you need to go Start Menu, Tools, ActiveSync, Menu, Schedule. Now you're in the default Windows Mobile screen for controlling the same settings (as opposed to the Sense UI skin). Notice the immediate visual difference, and how difficult it is to click the checkboxes accurately with your finger? Raw Windows Mobile is like that all the way through; it's just that HTC has managed to hide it most of the time.
Performance is another issue. Windows Mobile 6.5 is based on the Windows CE 5.2 kernel - which hasn't been seriously updated in 5 or 6 years. That means core OS operations are coded in such a way that they cannot take full advantage of any CPU that was designed more recently than that. This means that Windows Mobile always runs much slower than competing OSes on the same hardware. It also (for other reasons) is a memory hog. Again, you don't notice this so much on an HD2, because the Snapdragon processor is fast enough, and there's enough memory, that even Windows Mobile generally doesn't slow it down too much. But there are exceptions. If you look at the specifications for HTC's not-quite-released-yet Bravo phone, for example, this runs on very similar hardware to the HD2 (also based on the Snapdragon chipset) but it offers playback of 720p video clips, and the ability to capture 720p video using the camera. The reason the HD2 can't do is because it's running Windows Mobile.
There are general usability issues, too. Notice how many "tweaks" are advertised on this forum that require specially written utility programmes or registry edits to enable? On other OSes you generally don't need to do this: everything works in a sensible way as soon as you take the phone out of the box. Windows Mobile phones are very much ongoing projects - it takes weeks or even months to get them working the way you want. If you're the sort of person who enjoys that, great. And, arguably, if you are an inveterate tweaker, WinMo offers a higher degree of customisability. But many people prefer a phone that just works; and Android and iPhone do a much better job of that.
There are many other issues, too; the complete lack of multi-touch support in the OS is an obvious one.
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LOL...
gabbs said:
LOL...
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Why do you even qoute that BS?
freyberry said:
Why do you even qoute that BS?
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some ppl might be reading it and think it's fact..
LOL
well this is my first wm phone and what a choice I made,its totally awesome and for me blows all other phones out of the park. I had the Sony satio before this but sent it back after 5 days,I'm so glad I did.as for apps,you just have to look about,there's 1000's spread about....I also know a good site for (free) games....lol
donwhann said:
... I also know a good site for (free) games....lol
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May I remind you of the forum rules - this site is for sharing!
So if you know of a site with some good free (and legal) games, please let us in on the info!
thanks
rjstep3