Related
Forgive me for not really being able to search deeply into this matter, I've seen threads detailing updating with the JasJar ROM or an amalgamation of the the MDA/O2 ROM.
1) I have 43.72mb total storage and 47.93mb Program storage. This results in 91.65mb total storage??? Right, at 128megs where has 40mbs gone? I have pretty much the exact same set up on the MDA3 yet the two figures more or less add up to 128mb. Can someone confirm these figures with me?
2) Is there a new ROM coming out and soon? I'm not one to complain if results are going to happen, but the memory issue is a biggy to me as there is one more program I want to install on the thing and I doubt there will be enough free memory.
3) Software, I'm sure there was a better suite of software on the MDA3 when that came out. Okay time consuming it may be but sometimes I do like to run Messenger when I'm on the train - where has it gone? And if Microsoft think I'm going to pay £10.99 more for that feature they can go swivel. I followed a thread that said it's included in Windows - it's not on the MDA Pro.
I really love the design of the thing but the software just seems to be a joke. Where do I start? I have posted the MDA3 for sale on Ebay and I want to honour that sale, but I also want a device that replaces my MDA3 100%.
This includes getting TomTom 5 to work with my BT GPS receiver!!!
1. Sorry not sure about the memory
2. I havent heard of a new T-mobile ROM being available and they never seemed to work on any updates for the MDAiii
3. The software suite was better - I miss my messenger too and like you I am reluctant to pay microsoft a tenner! The backup software isnt avialbel either which is an arse.
4. Good luck with TT5 I had to upgrade my co-pilot to get it to work on new os.
If at all possible could anyone with the MDAPro and the carrier ROM please do a memory check on theirs to compare with mine?
If you're not sure how to do it - Start/Settings/System/Memory, I just need the total figures for Storage and Program
I have the same memory CONFIG as you have stated!
In WM5 you have separate ROM & RAM configuration unlike WM2k3...
So here's how ur memory is split up -
1. RAM 64MB
Out of 64 megs of RAM, you loose roughly 17MB on internal allocation. For the device to run perfectly it has various fixed RAM permanently allocated (DMA buffers (for ur cameras etc.), kernel level memory allocation, GSM memory, video memory, mem swap space, cache etc.). This total memory fixed can vary from device to device, and each company can tweak it accordingly. Eventually, the OS has roughly 47MB for use. Now again, when WM5 powers up, it again consumes around 17megs of RAM, giving you 30-32 megs of ram to use for your programs or apps!
2. ROM 128MB (permanent storage)
This is divided into the following -
a. OS install: This is where WM5 related files etc. gets stored. This is a total of 64Megs
b. Extended ROM: This is used by maufacturers to store their customizations etc. Another 20megs allocated for this
c. User storage: This is the space available for you to install programs, and for windows to bloat Thats 43megs that you find!
Hope this clears out
Cheers,
San
Thanks for you response having had an XDA for some time and then the MDA I was just quite suprised to see a Memory low warning message so quickly as I never saw one on the MDA3. I wanted to confirm that I wasn't having memory issues.
It took me a while to realize I'm confused, but it seems I'm confused about Hermes/WM5 memory allocation.
I've been using PocketPC's since PPC2000, there (and in PPC2002, PPC2003) the o/s resides in flash, and RAM is partitioned between storage and program memory. Thus, loading lots of applications to the device reduces the amount of program memory available for actually running programs. Those o/s had a slider to influence the balance of memory allocated.
Since I got my 8525 I've been assuming that it worked the same way, despite the loss of the memory slider. There have always been indications that I was wrong though - I never saw the memory balance shift, and nothing I've done seems to increase the program memory. Even removing several applications from Storage and installing them in Extended ROM didn't help. I'd LIKE to free up more program memory so apps like Mapopolis can use a LOT of it....
My Start->Settings->System->Memory page shows 56.22MB (Total) for Storage and 49.08MB (Total) for Program. When reading about the Samsung "stacked" (aka MCM) processor I realized that none of the variants listed had more than 64MB SDRAM, and 56.22+49.08 > 64!!!
It seems like either "Storage" now equals flash memory (vs volatile RAM in PPC2003 et al.) and/or there's more the 64MB of SDRAM in the Hermes or something. If all 64MB were available I'd expect more Program memory than 49MB....
I'm confused - Can someone explain or point me to an explanation of how the Hermes/WM5 allocates that SDRAM?
TIA,
Richard
Hermes has Samsung KD5657ACA-D090 chip provides 128Mb NAND Flash + 64Mb Mobile SDRAM. See here:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_HardwareOverview
pof said:
Hermes has Samsung KD5657ACA-D090 chip provides 128Mb NAND Flash + 64Mb Mobile SDRAM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks pof! That's the one I thought it was - but I'm even more confused about the allocation of the 64MB now. If all of it goes to Program, how come I only get 49MB? If it gets split, how come Storage + Program is more than 64MB?
Ugh, I'm confused
Richard
rsolomon said:
Thanks pof! That's the one I thought it was - but I'm even more confused about the allocation of the 64MB now. If all of it goes to Program, how come I only get 49MB? If it gets split, how come Storage + Program is more than 64MB?
Ugh, I'm confused
Richard
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These sometimes confuses people...
But, the stated "Storage: 56.96" is the 128MB part, in that resides the whole OS, ExtROM etc. So in the end there is only 56.96 available for the system to use, plus the other installed programs that cuts it down to about 30MB free after a clean boot (that's just the way it is thanks to our lovely microsoft programmers <3)
The thing is that when you boot your device, the machine loads the whole OS to the running program memory and allocates some of it to important system files, that's why there is 48.80 total and then there is the rest running programs that take space, and about 30MB is free after clean boot on my device.
That's the way it has been programmed, mobile device programming is alot frustrating than on desktop PCs, so the memory handling is very important.
And don't mix those two when you said "56.22+49.08 > 64!!!", they are two separate memoryes. (56.xx being the 128 part and 49.xx being the 64 part).
Don't ask why microsoft excluded the memory allocation slider, maybe the older devices and OSs were differently programmed (memory handling).
gvoima said:
But, the stated "Storage: 56.96" is the 128MB part, in that resides the whole OS, ExtROM etc. So in the end there is only 56.96 available for the system to use, plus the other installed programs that cuts it down to about 30MB free after a clean boot (that's just the way it is thanks to our lovely microsoft programmers <3)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That much is logical - not all 128MB of the flash is allocated to the file system mounted as "Storage" - clearly some is for Bootloader, Radio, etc.
Are you really saying the OS and user-writable storage share a filesystem? That seems counter-intuitive to me, though presumably there are user-inaccessible flags to prevent over-writing system files. In PPC2003 there was a ROM file system and a RAM filesystem overlaid so they appeared together. You seem to be saying that in WM5 the user filesystem lives in a portion of the flash - unlike a portion of RAM as it did in PPC2000-2003.
gvoima said:
The thing is that when you boot your device, the machine loads the whole OS to the running program memory and allocates some of it to important system files, that's why there is 48.80 total
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you're saying WM5 hides ~16MB worth of RAM usage? Did PPC2003 execute O/S files in place then? I mean I can see that the o/s and running programs would take up space, but it's unclear to me why WM5 would report total memory lower than 64MB in that case.
TIA,
Richard
See also this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=278903
Got it
pof said:
See also this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=278903
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, that's got it - the MSDN blog links (that Lurker0 linked http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=1027392) at least squared me away. Lemme see if I can summarize my own questions:
0) Prior to WM5 most of the OS *was* eXecute In Place (XIP) - certainly on the devices I owned. Now most devices do not support XIP for most of the O/S so more RAM is used in general to compensate.
1) Prior to WM5, PocketPC "Storage" *was* in RAM (for user data), with WM5 it's ALL in flash. Thus there's no sense installing to ExtendedROM vs Storage, because you still can't free up any RAM
2) WM5 *does* hide ~15MB of RAM usage - because they want to. So "Program" really is RAM and it's just stupid that reported Total doesn't match physical Total.
I was tainted by my previous PPC exposure I guess. Half the RAM means that Mapopolis for instance will then always be slower on my WM5 device than on my PPC2003 device - half the SDRAM clock speed doesn't help here either (iPAQ 5555 vs Hermes)
Thanks all!
Richard
1. There are still reasons to use Extended ROM instead of the Storage. The Storage is required for many tasks by the OS, it is wise to keep at least some megs of it free. But, as you can read around, not everything is recomennded for installing on a flash card. Here the External ROM can be in help, adding the storage that is always accessible by OS, and is not used by other means.
2. You may call it "hide" but WM5 actually uses it. Well, the way it uses such an amount of RAM makes it hidden from the tools that calculate total available RAM. But that paging pool is a wise solution. For instance, Symbian OS 9.1 phones (S60 3rd edition, UIQ3.0) use RAM uniformly, and, as such, the same 64MB is just not enough for all (OS, built-in apps, user installed apps). WM5, employing the virtual memory, uses RAM a smarter way.
Lurker0 said:
2. You may call it "hide" but WM5 actually uses it. Well, the way it uses such an amount of RAM makes it hidden from the tools that calculate total available RAM. But that paging pool is a wise solution. For instance, Symbian OS 9.1 phones (S60 3rd edition, UIQ3.0) use RAM uniformly, and, as such, the same 64MB is just not enough for all (OS, built-in apps, user installed apps). WM5, employing the virtual memory, uses RAM a smarter way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed - by "hide" I simply meant not reporting it. I'd be fine with MS showing 64MB total with 14MB used - I just got thrown by showing 50MB "Total". I grok their rationale for that reporting choice, I just don't agree
As I alluded above, I have a specific target app which performed well on a PPC2003 system with 128MB of RAM and which is performing much slower on a WM5 system with 64MB RAM. Reducing the app's dataset (maps in this case) brings performance back in line, so I believe I have a memory issue. I'm running an older version of the app due to a bug which is still outstanding against the WM5-certified versions, so I'm likely not getting any help the app COULD be giving the OS. Bummer for me
On the plus side, I've learned a bunch about WM5 memory usage which I didn't know yesterday....
Thanks!
Richard
Enjoy yourself, i've to use a Creative Commons song for copyright questions :
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=elOj_FFwkvI
And i've to citate the singer : Dj's Team Project - [email protected] Generation -- Jamendo - MP3 VBR 192k - 2007.10.23 [www.jamendo.com]
I saw that the oxios hibernate was installed in the rom?! I have tried to install that to, but it not free up memory att all. Can someone explain that to me?
oxios hibernate installs OK
I found this description of Oxios :
Oxios Hibernate attempts to release as much memory as possible without damaging the internal state of the Windows Mobile device (Pocket PC or Smartphone).
Oxios CloseApps closes down other applications by sending "Close" messages.
I was interested in if the Oxios realy works right on Polaris, I now what the software does.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=368086
When a had the Trinity this software worked as it should
I'm trying in this moment and it seems to release a very little quantity of memory.
polaris has large amount of RAM , don't need stuff like oxios.
omaga said:
I was interested in if the Oxios realy works right on Polaris, I now what the software does.
When a had the Trinity this software worked as it should
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is true that it does not work correctly with Polaris. I use the FreeUp RAM of SKTools. It works really great.
omaga said:
...free up memory
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not an easy one to get, because you have been educated for years of the exact opposite, but I hope I'm able to make all you guys understand:
it is NOT wise to free up RAM. This sounds illogical, but think about it: the purpose of RAM is to have a fast memory available which holds currently running and recently used programs. The probably easiest way to make you understand why its bull to clean up the RAM:
if you "empty" the RAM, 1st of all you do an almost complete write-cycle on the whole RAM which is bad for the hardware itself, it wears out over time
2ndly you wipe the applications you are about to use out of the RAM, so they have to be loaded again from slow memory (eg. ROM) so performance decreases, that what you don't want to happen you actually MAKE it happen...
3rdly RAM is so fast in handling the stuff loaded, you wouldn't notice any load/unload operations in the background
So summed up on the example of Windows Vista: You have learnt over the years, alot of free RAM is important. I agree, with "old" Operating Systems, especially Microsofts, it was. Mainly because they had a totally useless RAM management...
Now with Vista it's different and that Vista uses A LOT of RAM is actually a good thing, not a bad thing. It fills up the RAM with recently used applications, often used applications and applications you might use in the near future to be IMMEDIATELY ready. This actually IS THE PURPOSE OF RAM, "empty" RAM is a useless thing. And if your injection would be: but if the RAM is full, there's no space for an application I use the first time! Right, my answer: the application has to be loaded from HD and the RAM is freed up much more quicker than the EXE can be read from the HD.
The same concept applies to Windows Mobile. And to be honest, the Polaris has so much RAM, why even bother!
HTC state that the blackstone has 288MB of ram installed .Throught the various roms a have tried the avalable total ram varies between 195mb and 207mb nowhere near the 288MB that is installed. the question is where is this missing ram bqing used if at all ans if not where is the controll for the ram useage and how can we fully utalise the ram imstalled.
hows can we use all the ram installed on our blackstones there must me some modification or change that will allow us utilize ram fully.
A quick reply :
Its used by ROM-- its like running explorer.exe in windows, or something!!!
But I dont know correctly and I would also wish to hear the full storyof "why is ram missing???"
Just a little google result: http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2005/11/29/498154.aspx
Afaik stuff like the page pool is used for this. Also the built in GPU is using this part of the RAM as its own.
i know that the rom some how takes this ram why i dont know or if its evan useing it because othere htc devices with basicaly the same hardwear setup show the full ram and other devices from htc all show the full amount or ram installed.
if anyone knows the full reasons ans mechibism for this please can you inform me. evam if its being used maybe theres a way to optimise it and use more for programs.
i know its not fixed cos between different roms iv used ic seen it vary between 93 and 81mb
i know that the rom some how takes this ram why i dont know or if its evan useing it because othere htc devices with basicaly the same hardwear setup show the full ram and other devices from htc all show the full amount or ram installed.
if anyone knows the full reasons ans mechibism for this please can you inform me. evam if its being used maybe theres a way to optimise it and use more for programs.
i know its not fixed cos between different roms iv used ic seen it vary between 93 and 81mb missing. so it can definatly varie but can we get full use of it.
i think i've read somewhere that the gpu itself uses 64MB as its cache. so 288-64=224MB
subtract the bootloader, bios (not sure if pdas have bios, but from my understandings, it should...)
nobody really cares that a HP comp with integrated gpu onboard, with 1024MB ram installed, shows smth like 980MB in windows.. its the same, bios, gpu cache etc..
On this pda its more visible cause 64MB from say 2048MB is nothing, 64MB from 288MB is 22%
but, i can be wrong...
clarity
ok iv done a bit of testing. its definatly not the page pool iv used a tool to adjust the page pool and it had no effec. the bios dosnt use ram they use eeprom. and the bootloader shouldnt segragate ram so the ram it uses should still register in windows. but someone who knows exactly what the missing ram is doing would be able to tell us for sure. so anyone out there that dose know please help.
x1 use some of the ram for "video card" mem
not sure if the same is true for blackstone
shazk21 said:
HTC state that the blackstone has 288MB of ram installed .Throught the various roms a have tried the avalable total ram varies between 195mb and 207mb nowhere near the 288MB that is installed. the question is where is this missing ram bqing used if at all ans if not where is the controll for the ram useage and how can we fully utalise the ram imstalled.
hows can we use all the ram installed on our blackstones there must me some modification or change that will allow us utilize ram fully.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
256 MB RAM + 32 MB for GPU = 288 MB RAM
They included the RAM used by the radio core to device specs, 32 out of 288Mb are used by the radio core, so main core is only able to access 256Mb directly. Frame buffer for GPU, kernel log, etc. are allocated from these 256Mb too, so you get even less for the OS. OS kernel (data) resides partially in RAM, so you would typically get <192Mb available after kernel boot that goes down to <128Mb after all drivers, services and user programs are loaded.
I never ran out of RAM on my Blackstone so far, why is this a problem to you?
stepw said:
They included the RAM used by the radio core to device specs, 32 out of 288Mb are used by the radio core, so main core is only able to access 256Mb directly. Frame buffer for GPU, kernel log, etc. are allocated from these 256Mb too, so you get even less for the OS. OS kernel (data) resides partially in RAM, so you would typically get <192Mb available after kernel boot that goes down to <128Mb after all drivers, services and user programs are loaded.
I never ran out of RAM on my Blackstone so far, why is this a problem to you?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
im not talking about crashing and freezing constantly but it dosnt take much to bog the system down.
hit about 65% it starts to slow more than 70% and ur living in slow motion more than 80% and your grinding to a hault. the % iv stated are representative of used ram as shown by htc task manager.
i do alot of surfing and that alond can gets me into the 60s and 70s espetialy if there more complex graphic based sites. i also use my phone as a remote client amoungst otherthingsand multi tasking is out of the question as you dont have much room to move memory wise.
secondly its about optimisation from what i can tell from the specs the blackstone can perform much better than it dose an varying fields if we can resolve something holing back its performance then were one step closer to fully utalising the heardware.
as gregy74 informed us 32mb is for the gpu which makes the numbers make sence. the radio heardware wont share memory arcitecrure withe the devices main memory its also very unlickly the gpu dose that would mean that 225mb of heardware was installed, now knowing what i know about memory (not specific to pdas unfortunatly) that is very hard and uneconomical.
as iv stated there has been qute a varyance in total ram visable to the os if some of this ram that is partitioned away is used by kurnals y such a varyance and would it not be possable to use the internal flash to load these perhaps in a seperat partion.
lastly and importantly to be clear step w i am not talking about the amount of ram avalable after a full boot (oh and the kurnals drivers ect are part of the os) i am talking about the total amount of ram visable to the os.
I still have 42 mb of free program memory (70 mb used) yet i can only start one application at a time before the app closes by itself if i start another program.
I have asked this memory problem question before but have got no reply. Never mind i will ask this question another million times if i have to to get some explanation. Hopefully somebody whose had similar problem and got it fixed can help.
I have even disabled, in my opinion, those useless startup items like ssactivate, addsignature, addaccount, mmisyncapp, vcdaemon.
Is there anybody here who understand programming specifically for Ipaq 612/614 devices regarding the least amount of memory required before the device starts acting up?
well in WinMo there is a limitation with the vm (slot) such that depends on the rom design can cause even you still have free ram but there is no vm space to allocate, see here for detail .
What rom are you using? I think even the stock rom wouldn't do that..may also relate to apps you are using
thanx for your response.
My os is version 6.1 (build 20757.1.4.0)
I will give the article a read. So I guess i have to upgrade 6.5? And if i do upgrade, would it be o.k. to restore 6.1 backup to 6.5?
thanks again
6.5 does not make it better unless we have a native nk.
Are you using the 6.1 rom made by russian? I suggust you try rom from sergiorus if you like 6.1.
delete..double post
Keyx,
The rom i'm currently using is made by Yegv001.
The article is not written in "english", but I guess our device 61x is not a native NK am i right?
Looking for Sergorius now.
well i guess that article i link to is probably too technical..
anyway in normal use you shouldn't encounter such problem..do you use a task manager? winMo has a limitation of 32 process so if you never close app you may run into the problem if you really open a lot of programs. Check your task manager -> view -> process to see how many process you are running
Hi,
Only newer devices have Native Kernel (NK) and not Ipaq 61x?
and
If i have to start reinstalling everything again from zero, which would you recommend me using, 6.1 or 6.5?
and
I don't get it, why do manufacturers keep giving us larger and larger memory if we can only use 32 processes? I used to have a device with only 32Mb or ram and can only run a few applications and wished i could have larger RAM. Now that I have a device with a bigger ram, I'm limited by the number of processes allowed!
and one more shameless question...
IS THERE A WAY OF REMOVING THE 32 APPLICATION LIMIT??? (sorry the caps)
Yes i have 32 processes running, but i need them all...
heeelllppp
sabertooth said:
Hi,
Only newer devices have Native Kernel (NK) and not Ipaq 61x?
and
If i have to start reinstalling everything again from zero, which would you recommend me using, 6.1 or 6.5?
and
I don't get it, why do manufacturers keep giving us larger and larger memory if we can only use 32 processes? I used to have a device with only 32Mb or ram and can only run a few applications and wished i could have larger RAM. Now that I have a device with a bigger ram, I'm limited by the number of processes allowed!
and one more shameless question...
IS THERE A WAY OF REMOVING THE 32 APPLICATION LIMIT??? (sorry the caps)
Yes i have 32 processes running, but i need them all...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well your problem is due to 32 process limit of WinMo(or technically is the underlying limit of WinCE 5.x) so it is not relate to the vm(slot) problem. We probably never get native 6.5 nk.exe for 61x since hp is not planning to upgrade it to 6.5 but that is a different issue
If you ever going to reinstall I would say choose whatever suit you the best. 6.1 is pretty stable while 6.5 give you some ui changes but that would depend whether you like the change or not.
WinCE 6 remove the 32 process limit but WinMo 6.x is still base on WinCe 5.x. WinMo 7 will be based on WinCE 6.x but until then we are struck with the 32 process limit.
so for now you would better off use a task manager to close some programs
thanks so much for your help keyx
I will now search for a program that can automatically close services that are no longer required which are still running in the background. Or can do so at a press of a button.