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I had the opportunity to play with a Wizard today.
I am going to say just one thing:
When I flip the keyboard thingie on the Wizard, the screen flip is instantaneous. Just instantaneous. (for the record, I happen to know exactly how long 1/5th of a second is, and it is not even that long)
On the Universal it takes what, 3 - 4 seconds?
Yes, yes! higher resolution and all that. But does that justify the same function on Universal to be at least 20 times slower? I think not!
I really can't believe that Universal is such a dog. Could it be something we are missing, like the CPU is underclocked by default or something?
Is there a way to find out how fast the CPU is running at a given time?
atekant said:
I had the opportunity to play with a Wizard today.
I am going to say just one thing:
When I flip the keyboard thingie on the Wizard, the screen flip is instantaneous. Just instantaneous. (for the record, I happen to know exactly how long 1/5th of a second is, and it is not even that long)
On the Universal it takes what, 3 - 4 seconds?
Yes, yes! higher resolution and all that. But does that justify the same function on Universal to be at least 20 times slower? I think not!
I really can't believe that Universal is such a dog. Could it be something we are missing, like the CPU is underclocked by default or something?
Is there a way to find out how fast the CPU is running at a given time?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
atekant: you're right on the button! I can almost prove it through trial and failure, but not conclusively. If you read the thread about the Jasjar and MDA Pro topping out at 624Mhz after being overclocked using PHM (Pocket Hack Master 2005), you will see that the Universal is not just slow in screen refresh rates, but also underperforms in the video playback department.
Plug in the mains adapter and performance issues are gone!! Successfully overclock to just 520Mhz (I know! It's supposed to run at that already!) and a lot of these performance issues are somewhat alleviated.
Personally, I believe that some universals have not different speed rating CPUs', but different chipsets, as not all Universal owners experience this problem e.g. Sub69 is ok on this front. But many other jasjar owners and MDA Pro owners have this same problem. My wife is on her 3rd MDA Pro, but that might be down to ROM version. Nonetheless, unless I overclock her Universal to 520 or 624Mhz, video performance is affected on videos encoded at a resolution of 640x480 (regardless of video bitrate).
Things have much improved on my own jasjar since my last hard-reset and not installing any 3rd party software that wasn't designed for WM5.0.
Anyway, that's my experience anyhow.
3rd party soft's not designed for wm05
but surely mackaby007, if a piece of software is not loaded into memory (ie used), why in the hell should it affect the performance, this is another insidious bug in my opinion, as i told u i am not going to try and hard reset just to test, but never should (or had with the o/ses i used like win, linux, epoc, symbian, unix, beos, macos, dos... etc) an application affect video or any other performance if its not loaded!
Re: Crossed wires!!
nabil2000 said:
but surely mackaby007, if a piece of software is not loaded into memory (ie used), why in the hell should it affect the performance, this is another insidious bug in my opinion, as i told u i am not going to try and hard reset just to test, but never should (or had with the o/ses i used like win, linux, epoc, symbian, unix, beos, macos, dos... etc) an application affect video or any other performance if its not loaded!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nabil2000, I think we're getting our wires a little crossed here. I agree with you to a large extent that it could well be a down to software bugs, therefore affecting CPU utilisation, which will in turn affect performance, i.e. refresh rates, speed od operation and most obviously for me, video playback. having said that, you are aware that sub69 and I have the identical ROM and o/s build version. That doesn't leave much room for software being the culprit, being that we still get differences in general performance. I don't believe my unit is at all faulty. I do think, however, that there is a two-fold problem that concerns some but not all Universal owners:
1) I don't believe for one second that all manufactured units have identical hardware, only specs! Different manufactured chips with same performance rating, but different response in real world use. This is nothing new in the world of computing.
2)I do believe that the o/s / ROM is bug ridden and can/will be resolved in due time.
As for your point about unloaded software affecting performance, I agree totally, that is highly improbable.
rom leakage into memory
maybe soft resets do not get rid of the unloaded apps completely, and so we get remnants/debris of apps left behind, which can only be removed with hard resets...
so if this is the case, and my hunch is that it is, a rom upgrade which will flush memory properly and completely every soft reset will get the problem solved... (or allow some backup mechanism that will allow for non-destructive hard resets)...
as for the hardware issue, i am not a chip processor manufacturer so i would not know, but some people in this board seem to know that this is the case (ie variations in hardware that preserve official hardware specs, with some having the potential to be more performant than others beyond what is advertised)...
either way, my contention is the better the specs, advertised or otherwise, the happier the clients, and the better for the future of the HTC/i-mate dealership venture ...
and by the way that trick they pulled (htc/i-mate) that the reason they included less ram was to preserve battery life, the same stunt was pulled by nokia to justify why they used a slower processor (150 mhz i think) on their nokia n9500 communicator...
they think customers are fools, but we are becoming more astute and discerning than ever before in our choices... so they better watch out instead of insulting our intelligence
Well, no, not quite 3-4 seconds for the screen flip. More like 1-2 seconds
If you disable the O2 Active interface by going to Programs>Install Type>Basic then soft reset, it does speed up the screen flipping somewhat.
MDA Pro, Jasjar, Dopod, SPV M5000 and Exec, oh & VPA IV!
Tha's assuming that every Universal owner has an Exec! :lol:
Removing all Today Plug-ins will increase the speed as well...
mackaby007 said:
...Successfully overclock to just 520Mhz (I know! It's supposed to run at that already!) and a lot of these performance issues are somewhat alleviated...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I use PHM to look at the current processor speed, it already reports 520. Are you saying yours reported a slower speed?
If mine shows 520, should I just leave it alone and not use PHM??
(The test at 624 fails each time)
[/quote]Well, no, not quite 3-4 seconds for the screen flip. More like 1-2 seconds
Actually, for me its more like 6 seconds, painfully slow...
Fernando
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am a bit confused here. On one hand, it would seem that this is entirely a WM5 issue, as other devices with VGA screens do switch instantaneously (e.g., iPaq 4700 and others); it is not good that the JASJAR takes this long. However, the K-JAM screen rotation is fast but it has a QVGA screen, so it may be a VGA thing after all.
Or is it that WM5 and VGA don't "mix well"?
Any thoughts?
Fernando
Not trying to be the exception to the rule here but screen switching on by JJ is actually instantaneous. I have not done any RU and am still on the old one.
Those experiencing more than a second must be doing so due to plug-ins and non-WM5 compliant software installed.
"trick they pulled (htc/i-mate) that the reason they included less ram was to preserve battery life, the same stunt was pulled by nokia to justify why they used a slower processor (150 mhz i think)"
Hmm, If you read the article on Buzznet about power, written by a MS employee, or have ANY knowledge of electronics you would understand that both of these are completely true.
Less ram, or slower processor = longer battery life.
I used Wm5 on my Himalaya and NEVER ONCE went over 50meg ram used, let alone 64. Why on earth would you want 128???
orinoco said:
other devices with VGA screens do switch instantaneously (e.g., iPaq 4700 and others)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
4700 has an ATI video chipset, Himalaya and
Blueangel too, and the screen flipping is
done in hardware.
Universal and Magician use the LCD controller
built into the CPU, so they are dog slow.
Don't have any info on Wizard.
I knew the Jasjar was lacking something!!
cr2 said:
orinoco said:
other devices with VGA screens do switch instantaneously (e.g., iPaq 4700 and others)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
4700 has an ATI video chipset, Himalaya and
Blueangel too, and the screen flipping is
done in hardware.
Universal and Magician use the LCD controller
built into the CPU, so they are dog slow.
Don't have any info on Wizard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I knew i wasn't loopy! That would explain poorer video performance on the Universal then, wouldn't it? Whilst the Universal is a very capable video player, it lacks power for higher resolution vids, hence the need for overclocking or the mains adapter to eradicate the 'jerking' some of have experienced in vids encoded at 640x480 @ more than 600kbps!
This issue of mine is becoming old hat now, so I'll give it a rest, but my fears have been justified, in that, whilst my jasjar is now performing beautifully, the only area left for me to complain is in the speed of screen flipping from standby mode and videoplack at high resolutions - lack of dedicated ATI video chipset explains it all to me now.
Cheers guys. :wink:
Re: So you think Universal is not slow? Only in two areas!!
CJSnet said:
mackaby007 said:
...Successfully overclock to just 520Mhz (I know! It's supposed to run at that already!) and a lot of these performance issues are somewhat alleviated...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I use PHM to look at the current processor speed, it already reports 520. Are you saying yours reported a slower speed?
If mine shows 520, should I just leave it alone and not use PHM??
(The test at 624 fails each time)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
CJSnet: Sorry mate, don't waste any more time on PHM. I won't anyway. It doesn't make enough of a difference for me in what I want from the Universal. I got my speed boost for the o/s from another program called GSPocketmagic. Don't ask me how this has worked out, I don't know, but it works for me!!
As has been made obvious, the universal has been manufactured without an ATI video chipset, therefore putting more strain on the CPU to handle screen refresh, flipping and video playback! So, in my opinion, we have to accept it as one of the shortcummings of the Universal. In every other way though, my Jasjar is now very quick and I'm not complaining.
best of luck. :wink:
Any advice from Universal owners would be welcome. I need an unlocked tri or quad band phone and I am ready to buy now. I see that Hermes has 2.0 mp camera which I read is a big improvement. I am not that interested in keyboards and have heard that hermes predecessor (magician?) had problems...so I am concerned about having a slide out keyboard that I do not need which might cause problems in future. The hermes has upgraded blue tooth and usb if I am not mistaken as well as EDGE? Universal has SD while hermes has mini sd.
Any suggestions from Universal owners if I should get my Unlocked Universal now or if I should wait for Hermes???
thanks
scott
scottshort said:
I am not that interested in keyboards and have heard that hermes predecessor (magician?) had problems...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you're not interested in keyboards, the Universal really shouldn't be a choice because it has the biggest keyboard of all HTC devices.
You say that you're ready to buy now, you can start with the Universal. If you don't like it, you could always sell it and get a Hermes when they come out. That's what I would do.
I understand that Keyboard is not on your priority list. However do consider the VGA screen on the uniersal. It is really the best screen I have ever seen. As I do a lot of net browsing a smaller QVGA screen is somewhat a deterrent for me.
Regards
thanks
Thanks all for advice. I have stage fright in making my purchase decision!! I am ready to buy now, but am now concerned that the Universal is already outdated....BUT the hermes wont be available as unlocked for some time....(you can probably understand how my last pocket pc was a phillips nino!!....I keep waiting for the best, and by the time it is available...there is a new best right around the corner!)
From your experience, is the universal a good machine? Will I have huge problems out of the box? Will I need ROM upgrade for it to work?? I am not a super techy guy (don't understand much about modifying these machines and am frankly afraid that I might mess it up) and this machine will need to last me for at least 5 years....I am not one to purchase the latest model each year....
Will I really miss all of the new additions present in the Hermes model?? such as 2.0 mp camera (reviews have said the 1.3 mp cam sucks), and all of the newer email capabilities edge? utms? Or do you think for a regular user that I won't miss them??
Some things that I want for sure:
Blue tooth STEREO phone and mp3 headset combo (so I can keep this brick stored in my bag and make and receive calls without it clipped to my belt all the time....and listen to mp3s in stereo....is this possible?
Voice commands from bluetooth headset...possible?
If there was an unlocked model similar to hermes available now without keypad...I would consider....but only thing I have seen is eten g500 with integrated gps...looks cool but only 1.3 mp camera and no wifi....so I do not see anything else available on market that is better than universal
thanks for any advice/experience you can offer
scott
srmz said:
I understand that Keyboard is not on your priority list. However do consider the VGA screen on the uniersal. It is really the best screen I have ever seen. As I do a lot of net browsing a smaller QVGA screen is somewhat a deterrent for me.
Regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to disagree with the screen part.
HX4700 has the best VGA screen IMO.
Chatbox said:
I have to disagree with the screen part.
HX4700 has the best VGA screen IMO.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let's not get off subject here. Yes, HX4700 has a really neat screen. However, it is not a phone.
what about prophet?
I have been reading about prophet...as a possible alternative to universal......I am worried that 200 mhz processor might be too slow for skype...one review said it was really slow.....but then another review said it was as fast as universal... has anyone used universal with voip or skype ...does it work ok??
Thanks for any comments.... is there a huge benefit to having universal's umts and 3G (most of my time is in america).....or would the prophet's (or Hermes) EDGE be seen by current universal owners as a big plus..and a better choice today...?
thanks again for the advice
scott
Re: what about prophet?
scottshort said:
I have been reading about prophet...as a possible alternative to universal......I am worried that 200 mhz processor might be too slow for skype...one review said it was really slow.....but then another review said it was as fast as universal... has anyone used universal with voip or skype ...does it work ok??
Thanks for any comments.... is there a huge benefit to having universal's umts and 3G (most of my time is in america).....or would the prophet's (or Hermes) EDGE be seen by current universal owners as a big plus..and a better choice today...?
thanks again for the advice
scott
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Scott, currently 3G and UTMS, none of that stuff is avaliable here in the US. So if you spend a majority of your time here, it probably won't do you any good. EDGE will, but like I said it will only make a real noticable difference if you tether with a laptop and use it as a modem.
The 200mhz processor in the Prophet and Wizard series is a nice processor. For day to day usage, you probably won't even know that it's 200mhz. For Skype (If you use that feature a lot), I would steer away from the OMAP processor. I know some people say this and say that, in reality, it's really not a fast processer when coming down to run memory hogging big programs. The one thing I REALLY REALLY liked about the OMAP processor is how long those phones lasted on one charge. I can really use my Wizard all freak'n day and it would laugh at me. My Universal...that's a different story. :lol:
Hello. I've been following the Kaiser thread ever since I heard about it, and with the same anxiety of the owners of that phone i've been waiting for the miraculous drivers to appear. I'm looking forward to upgrade from a HP hx2750, to a new pda with phone. After a few research I concluded that the pdas the fit my need are the HTC p3600 (trinity), p3600i (500Mhz processor version) , the Tytn 2 Kaiser or the coming Eten X800 and the I-mate 8502 which in my option is the best off all those but I doubt it will be available sooner than April 2008.
From all those the p3600i and tytn 2 seemed more appealing. So I have to pick between the p3600i (since i'd rather have more ROM and processor speed though paying a bit more) or the kaiser, tytn 2.
I like to play videos, take pictures and once in awhile play a few games, but also have a decent scrolling and browsing speed since I'm used to the hx2750 wm6, BUT, i'm not sure if the drivers will ever be made or work properly... in other words I wouldn't like to have a crippled phone as expensive as that kaiser(not getting contract!). The p3600i looks great is not so buggy but doesn't have keyboard and this is something I always missed in the hx2750. Neither I know if the keyboard in the end is really that useful cause it looks very hard to type in...
I heard better things from htc in past times but now they don't seem to care for consumers opinion, so that's another question. I dunno if it's better to get the kaiser and wait for drivers or get something more solid. I heard new windows 6.1 will come out soon, so might be a help or push to fix problem. I prefer more the kaiser but the p3600i is impressive too...
So i'm here asking for whoever wants to share its opinion... What's the best buy p3600i or tytn2 (kaiser, tilt)?
Is htc giving up the kaiser for real?(no more drivers, no more production of that model? And does the p3600i as any issue too?
P.S:I really refer to the p3600i not the updated p3600(trinity)
Heavy s**t
My penn'orth:
The TyTyn 2 is SOOOOO heavy and bulky. although the 3MP camera is nice, the keyboard is not really that useful as it's fiddly to use and the bulky size and weight for me do not justify the tilt / keyboard.
For it's size I'd say go with the 3600i.
It may be useful in terms of getting responses - to specify which driver issue you are talking about - I'm not sure myself!
I would like to add that you should keep in mind that the P3600i is still relatively new and that if you plan to immediately flash the ROM to your favourite cooked TouchFlo variety you will be unable to do so for a while so you'll have to stick with the original stuff for now. Apart from that I would say that a big part of your decision-making considerations would be the hardware keyboard and how important having one means to you - to be honest I hardly use them. Additionally, I HATE to feel the looseness/play created by the moving parts, and I like a solid phone with only buttons - no flips, slides or twists. Another consideration is battery life - not sure exactly how they compare, but I have a feeling there is not much difference between the two (keeping in mind that the P3600i has a faster processor than the Kaiser). I am not sure how the cameras compare either, but the Kaiser should indeed produce better results, though I will say that the P3600/P3600i's photos are not that bad either. Another factor, presumably, is the cost. I am about to buy a P3600i today and it's running me USD$599 - the TyTN II is USD$750. For me it's the P3600i, but of course, the choice is yours. You have to look at all the differences between the two phones (read as many reviews as you can) and the environment you will be using the phone in and the type of usage you will demand from it to fine-tune and make the best decision for yourself.
I had to make the same decision and ended up with the p3600. For two reasons:
1st: The P3600 comes with almost the same functionality, like wifi, gps, hsdpa/umts and so on - but is cheaper and smaller. Besides that the P3600 has no performanceproblems with applications or videoplayback.
2nd: I dont do any SMS-texting, neither do I write any e-mails from the phone. So the keyboard wasnt too important to me. Since there are some nice programs for fingerfriendly onscreen keyboards, I can type small texts without any difficulty and quite fast.
You definitely get more for your money with the p3600 ... which is useless if you need to write 20 emails a day on your phone ...
The drivers issue I made reference to (Htc tytn 2) problem is the fact it has a video performance worst than earlier models, it's slow and paused when scrolling, can't play games with proper frame rates. This is blamed in the lack video drivers... the tytn 2 or kaiser thread is filled with users seeking a solution to that.
The p3600i is a beautiful device but I don't know till when the 64MB memory will be a issue, and the kaiser offers 128Mb...
I don't really mind not having a cooked rom as long as the new one isn't that bad or buggy. About the touchflo I don't know really what is and how useful is but I suppose is something like finger scrolling... don't think is useful in such small screens... ^^
My hx2750 screen is almost as big as the p3600! I compared them side by side!
Does anyone knows if any htc device will be updated to wm6.1?
Thanks for all opinions...
Good day everyone. I recently red the htc class action lawsuit website by many unsatisfied owners of the Kaiser. From reading the site, it looks like the Kaiser is one of the devices which lack certain drivers. The Hermes is not listed there however. Between the Hermes and Kaiser, which one performs better when it comes to graphics? To people with both devices, is the Kaiser significantly much better than the Hermes when it comes to playback of videos, games etc? I'm thinking on what to buy, the Hermes or the Kaiser. Does the Hermes outpace the Kaiser due to lack of drivers? Or does the new chipset of the Kaiser make up for the missing drivers and outpace the Hermes? Thanks.
Honestly, Hermes is getting long in the tooth - its probably NOT possible to get a Hermes from a carrier anymore.
Kaiser is a pain with the graphics drivers. There are newer HTC models that outstrip both in performance and graphics, I'd look into one of them.
I'd like the touch pro myself, pity its so expensive in Oz....
Cheers...
I was faced with this choice a while back myself. I did not want to sign a 2 year contract for a new phone and I wasn't happy with the phones that T-Mobile had in my area at the time, so I decided to buy one outright. Didn't want to shell out $700+ for some current models so it came down to the Hermes or Kaiser. I ended up going with a refurbished Hermes for $150. I wanted the Kaiser because of the additional RAM, but I did not like the video performance which I watch a lot of on my phone (you can find youtube videos of the Kaiser video performance). I understand the the updated software video drivers have improved performance quite a bit, but it does not help 2D drawing. I think the screen lag time would just drive me crazy after a while. For me, the Hermes would be perfect if it had 128MB, but I do get by OK with the 64. I guess it comes down to what you use it for. I think the Hermes is a good bet to hold you over until better phones with better batteries become available... or until the prices on current phones get more reasonable. The Hermes does what I need it to do and has just enough memory for me to run Spb Mobile Shell with a nice theme (littlerain wm7), Palringo for IM, Kinoma player for streaming video/audio and email in the background all at the same time without running out of memory. If I want to run Skyfire or Google maps, I would have to close Kinoma, but I probably would not need or want to run Kinoma while using those apps anyway. Good luck! I think the Hermes is a good choice, but I would definitely get a new one or factory refurbished one over used if you can find it.
I did that too. I bought the Hermes, the Cingular 8525 version, for $160. Nice $500 savings With CorePlayer, it plays videos nicely, although it needs to be converted to 320x240 resolution first. I have a Core 2 Duo PC so converting videos is a snap. Has anyone seen Coreplayer benchmarks of the Kaiser and Hermes? Or other bechmarks? All google hits I find do not compare the Kaiser to the Hermes but to newer phones. How do they compare? Thanks.
I've always used TCPMP, both on my Hermes and my Kaiser, and videos have always played smoother on my Kaiser. People can say what they want about the Kaiser being slower/choppier than the Hermes due to the video driver issue, but my Kaiser has always been faster and more responsive than my Hermes, period, even before we got the software drivers.
Not only that, but once you've watched a movie on a fully brightened Kaiser screen, there is no contest. The Hermes screen, with the brightness set to maximum, isn't half as bright as the Kaiser with brightness set to half. The movies are just so much more vibrant.
I resisted the urge to get a Kaiser for a long time, but when the opportunity arose ($160 bucks for a Kaiser, bought right out of an AT&T salesman's pocket) I took and never looked back. Kaiser is faster in every way, and the additional memory is great to have. Oh yeah...and being able to fire up Touch Flo 3D (with working software drivers) is fun.
I still have fond memories of my two Hermes...sold one, kept one for old times sake.
I've had a HTC Wizard (unlocked) for almost 3 years. It's been a solid, dependable unit. Thanks to this board, I have it re-flashed to WM6, and it works nice.
I have been thinking of "upgrading" to a faster phone.. the Wizard's CPU is 200MHz... the Hermes is 400Mhz, right?
Is the Hermes basically the "same" phone as the Wizard, with just a faster CPU? Or is the Hermes "more different" than just the CPU? Does the Hermes have speakers like the Wizard, so it can be set on the table and used as a speakerphone, or so you can listen to music without headphones?
And I've read something on these boards about a HTC 8925 Tilt/Kaiser? If I upgrade, should I go to a Hermes or a Tilt/Kaiser?
Thanks in advance,
Keith
KSandbergFL said:
I've had a HTC Wizard (unlocked) for almost 3 years. It's been a solid, dependable unit. Thanks to this board, I have it re-flashed to WM6, and it works nice.
I have been thinking of "upgrading" to a faster phone.. the Wizard's CPU is 200MHz... the Hermes is 400Mhz, right?
Is the Hermes basically the "same" phone as the Wizard, with just a faster CPU? Or is the Hermes "more different" than just the CPU? Does the Hermes have speakers like the Wizard, so it can be set on the table and used as a speakerphone, or so you can listen to music without headphones?
And I've read something on these boards about a HTC 8925 Tilt/Kaiser? If I upgrade, should I go to a Hermes or a Tilt/Kaiser?
Thanks in advance,
Keith
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd certainly go for the Kaiser. Quite a few issues were ironed out and sorted with the Kaiser / Tilt.
Mike
Performance-wise, I never noticed a difference when I upgraded from Wizard to Hermes - the faster processor had seemingly no effect.
The only differences between the two models are the 3g/hsdpa, and the scroll wheel is a slight improvement on the slide switch.
If I was looking to buy a new handset now I would discount the Hermes because of its lack of ram. Far better to get a Kaiser or better. Personally now I would be looking for a better resolution screen, as vga is now common and better supported.
KSandbergFL said:
I've had a HTC Wizard (unlocked) for almost 3 years. It's been a solid, dependable unit. Thanks to this board, I have it re-flashed to WM6, and it works nice.
I have been thinking of "upgrading" to a faster phone.. the Wizard's CPU is 200MHz... the Hermes is 400Mhz, right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi there... I finally picked a replacement phone -- after lots of research, and waiting for a good deal, I got a used HTC Universal. It's an EXCELLENT device, more like a mini-netbook than a phone. Has a 500MHz Intel CPU in it, and plays 30fps movies at up to 1.15Mbps (Mpeg 1) with no problems. I am very happy with my upgrade.