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Hey guys.
There's a new competitor in town. SE is definitely looking to gain some market share with the Idou scheduled launch Q2 '09. some specs listed are :
Sony Ericsson Idou
GSM 850 / 900 / 1800 / 1900
HSDPA 900 / 2100
Coming soon. Exp. release 2009, Q3
TFT touchscreen, 16M colors
360 x 640 pixels, 3.5 inches
Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g, DLNA
Symbian OS
12.1 MP, 4256 x 2832 pixels, autofocus, xenon flash, video, video LED flash, secondary VGA videocall camera
- Built-in GPS
- aGPS function
- Camera images geo-tagging, face and smile detection
- Google maps
- FM radio with RDS
- MP3/AAC/MPEG4 player
- Organiser
- Built-in handsfree
- Voice memo/dial
- Java MIDP 2.0
Some links:
Engadget
Phonedog
Some other video
What are your thoughts on this new model.
The SE Idou has a smaller screen, lower resolution, not WinMo, no North American 3G (Telstra model has 850).
The only positive that jumps out is the camera, but that's not enough to overcome the above negatives for me. Sorry, not interested.
I bet the Idou-NOT camera will still be shooting 3gp video in 320*240 resolution
My 3 and a half year old Universal has a bigger, higher resolution screen than the Idou. If that's progress I'm not impressed.
That phone was epic back in the day! Still has some decent specs now!
really cant stand all those nonstandard resolution.
heck, enough's enough already with vga wvga q and square stuff!
crashDebug said:
really cant stand all those nonstandard resolution.
heck, enough's enough already with vga wvga q and square stuff!
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Well get used to it - it's the same resolution that all the new touchscreen Symbian handsets are coming out with such as the Nokia 5800 and the Samsung OmniaHD.
The reason they've gone for it is that it's a 16:9 aspect ratio.
There's no point trying to compare the Touch HD to the Idou as one of those handsets isn't even available yet.
In fact, going on SE's recent form, I'd be very surprised if they get it into shops this year. And I'd even go so far as to say that someone like Samsung or LG will have released a different 12mp handset before Idou is available.
Also, why on earth does anyone think that 12mp on a phone is going to be a good thing?
Think about how poor the camera on the HD can be, do you really think cramming in an extra 7 million pixels will make things better?
Too low res for me - 800*480 is simply a sweet spot, it's the major thing HTC got right.
I bet the 12mp camera takes shockingly bad pictures too. That's more than almost all aps-c DSLRs out there (and the few that tried 14/15mpixel didn't sell, because they took worse pictures than the 10/11 models).
Idou would be a good phone. If this (or N97) is out now, I would not have bought the HD. Don't get me wrong. I am very satisfied with HD (with all the tweaks and cooked roms). Coming from a S60 N95/82 and after using HD for the last 3 months I have to honestly say somehow WM is still not as good an OS compared to Symbian. Symbian is still more robust, nimble and more efficient.
not impressed with it's spec's compared to some of the 2009 htc devices on the horizen...like the Firestone, etc.
I don't know for sure, but normally cameras with these resolution ain't better than any 5 MP camera. Its not the resolution that limits the capacities, but its the lens.
mib1800 said:
Coming from a S60 N95/82 and after using HD for the last 3 months I have to honestly say somehow WM is still not as good an OS compared to Symbian. Symbian is still more robust, nimble and more efficient.
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Everyone has their own preferences.
Until the Nokia 5800 was released, I'd never used a Symbian phone that I liked. I just don't feel the way the menus are laid out works all that well.
johnpatcher said:
I don't know for sure, but normally cameras with these resolution ain't better than any 5 MP camera. Its not the resolution that limits the capacities, but its the lens.
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It's both.
Yes the lens makes a big difference but so do the number of pixels.
By cramming more pixels onto the same size of sensor, each pixel is smaller and consequently less light hits it.
Because less light hits it, the picture will appear duller unless you increase the amplification of the signal from each pixel. But if you do that, you also increase the amount of noise, which is detrimental to the picture quality.
Even with premium components it's impossible to amplify a signal without having noise appear but there's no way that a phone is going to be fitted with premium components, so the noise will be much worse than it would be on a digital camera of the same quality, not to mention that proper digital cameras would also tend to have a physically larger sensor anyway, so they wouldn't have to crank the amplification up so much.
Even the C905 (which is, according to GSMArena the best 8mp camera-phone on the market from a camera perspective) already has serious issues with noise and, at best, Idou will have a sensor of the same physical size but with more pixels.
However I've already read rumours that the sensor will, in fact, be smaller than the C905's which will make it all even worse.
Step666 said:
It's both.
Yes the lens makes a big difference but so do the number of pixels.
By cramming more pixels onto the same size of sensor, each pixel is smaller and consequently less light hits it.
Because less light hits it, the picture will appear duller unless you increase the amplification of the signal from each pixel. But if you do that, you also increase the amount of noise, which is detrimental to the picture quality.
Even with premium components it's impossible to amplify a signal without having noise appear but there's no way that a phone is going to be fitted with premium components, so the noise will be much worse than it would be on a digital camera of the same quality, not to mention that proper digital cameras would also tend to have a physically larger sensor anyway, so they wouldn't have to crank the amplification up so much.
Even the C905 (which is, according to GSMArena the best 8mp camera-phone on the market from a camera perspective) already has serious issues with noise and, at best, Idou will have a sensor of the same physical size but with more pixels.
However I've already read rumours that the sensor will, in fact, be smaller than the C905's which will make it all even worse.
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I agree with everything you said, and being a photographer I'm very familiar with issues you described.
However, Sony is leading the market in compact digital cameras, and as such, it would not surprise me that these 12 megapixels turn out to produce "decent quality" photos.
Decent for average Joe Snapshooter, of course. Because, although for last 5 or so years I have been listening to "OMG, they're putting EVEN more pixels onto that tiny sensor", somehow the manufacturers are still running the megapixel race, and image quality has had a small but steady quality improvement. First time I heard this sentence was when first big megapixel jump happened: from 1 megapixel to 2.
So, let's just wait and see before bashing the new Sony, at least camera-wise.
I'm not waiting, I hold out zero hope for Idou or any other 12mp handset.
I've seen both 100% crops and A3 printouts from the C905 and as I said before, noise is a huge problem.
I just don't see how adding extra pixels is going to do anything but make matters worse.
Also, since when have Sony been leading the market for compact cameras?
I must admit I'm not as au fait with everything since the pixel numbers went through the roof but last time I checked, Nikon and Canon were sharing the spoils.
Rozenthal said:
Decent for average Joe Snapshooter, of course. Because, although for last 5 or so years I have been listening to "OMG, they're putting EVEN more pixels onto that tiny sensor", somehow the manufacturers are still running the megapixel race, and image quality has had a small but steady quality improvement.
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There have been tests recently that showed the best compact ever made was the Fuji f30, a 4 year old 6 megapixel model (people pay a ton of money for them on ebay). Even with improvements in tech since, they've not been able to counteract the quality decrease that cramming more megapixels in causes. Fuji themselves tried to reign back the megapixel race, hold at 8 max for quality reasons, but marketing trumps all and they've had to give it up.
I had a 15mpixel Canon pocket camera recently, the quality was awful.
arfster said:
There have been tests recently that showed the best compact ever made was the Fuji f30, a 4 year old 6 megapixel model (people pay a ton of money for them on ebay).
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I don't suppose you have a link?
I tried my fair share of Fuji cameras in the past and was never hugely impressed by them, so I'm a little surprised at that.
Also, for them to try and position themselves as the voice of reason in the megapixel war is rather hypocritical since they were the manufacturer who traditionally always aimed for more, staying on with interpolation long after most other manufacturers had given up on it.
Ok, as far as i can tell no one has mentioned this, i appologise if i have missed it as i know some people on here get a bit righteous on here.
SO the camera. , on the HD the camera was the only major thing that really sucked, it did everything else i was expecting of it but that camera really was crap in anything but perfect light conditions.
has anyone heard anything about this HD2 and its camera, its the same MP spec obviously but that means nothing, forget the LED lights they are a gimic at best. Whats needed is a larger CCD and lens, not pixel density, so whats the word on the streets guys? can this thing suck in more light than its older brother and not suffer major lag as the device tried to compensate? and is the shutter responce higher reducing those blured pics that can happen even in perfect day light?
here you have some samples
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=8987
and more here
http://www.slashgear.com/htc-hd2-5mp-camera-gets-reviewed-distinctly-average-1259864/
it is average... nothing good, but nothing bad... but i think those are samples from pre release... so it can change...
Yeah the camera sucks
Actually, judging by the videos I've seen, HD2's camera is very fast (almost instant) when focusing, which makes it usable in real-life conditions, unlike HD's.
dazza9075 said:
forget the LED lights they are a gimic at best.
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I beg to differ... While I completely agree that LED flash is no match for a "real" xenon flash, it is useful as it allows to take pictures that wouldn't be possible otherwise - you can take a picture of your friends in a bar and stuff like that (which in my case is like 90% of all the scenes I want to take pictures of )
dazza9075 said:
is the shutter responce higher reducing those blured pics that can happen even in perfect day light?
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My major gripe with HD was very slow focusing - it just didn't allow to shoot anything. HD2 is 10 times better - it almost works like a focus-free camera in terms of speed (at least that's what I saw on some hands-on video).
Fast it may be, but the pictures i have seen so far are of terrible quality, but what can you expect from a cmos lens?
CMOS sensor, you mean?
I certainly don't consider those pictures to be of "terrible" quality. They are noisy and all, but if I can use my phone to make something like that I'd be quite satisfied, for anything better I'd use a "real" camera. The problem with my HD is that I can't use it at all because it's so slow that the scene changes several times before it shoots anything.
Well my nokia 5800 only has 3.2mp and it blows those pictures away. CRAP
Yeah, i know LED lights can have a use, especially up close as you say taking pics in the bar, which ironically is exactly the poor lighting i tried with the HD to no avail!
so i take that back.
Shutter speed would be good, ive lost too many good photos because the wind was pushing me enough to slightly blur everything.
I never even thought to check if the HD cam was CCD or CMOS,
its a bit bizzar if thats the case because although CCD has a higher quality it should be slightly slower than CMOS, which it clearly isnt, which makes me wonder what exactly is slowing the whole thing down.
Well as for the (perfect lighting conditions and zero blur) quality of the HD im more than happy, so i hope HTC can build on it and make it faster.
jrvenge said:
Well my nokia 5800 only has 3.2mp and it blows those pictures away. CRAP
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thats all rather subjectional really, my old XDA 2 produces better pics at the cost of resolution, so yes in a small printout it could be better but not when blown up. most people do not need anything more than 3.2mp, if my HD was any quicker on 3.2 id use it.
Most printers in peoples homes arent capable of printing the difference between 3.2 and 5 unless its enlarged anyway!
ive yet to see any good shots from a production HD2 but if its like the HD and its "perfect lighting" the quality is quite amazing, perfect lighting is the operative statement there though for the HD so i can only hope the HD2 can push that bar back a bit!
dazza9075 said:
its a bit bizzar if thats the case because although CCD has a higher quality it should be slightly slower than CMOS, which it clearly isnt, which makes me wonder what exactly is slowing the whole thing down.
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As far as I understand (and I'm not an expert so I may be wrong), there are two problems:
One is obviously the crappy optics (small and made of cheap plastic and such) which do not let enough light come through, combined with a tiny sensor, resulting in lower shutter speeds required to take a picture - thus you get the blur.
Two is the way auto focus works - it's not measuring distance to the object, but instead analyzes the image from the sensor for sharpness and then adjusts focus until the blur goes away. This requires some calculations, obviously. All (or most) non-professional cameras work this way, but "real" cameras have dedicated processors for this stuff, and don't do it in "software" mode - hence, they are much speedier. The same must apply to HD2 - Snapdragon has some camera module AFAIK, and/or is much faster overall than the processor in HD (and it's not just the clock speed, the Cortex A8 architecture is way more efficient).
vangrieg said:
As far as I understand (and I'm not an expert so I may be wrong), there are two problems:
One is obviously the crappy optics (small and made of cheap plastic and such) which do not let enough light come through, combined with a tiny sensor, resulting in lower shutter speeds required to take a picture - thus you get the blur.
Two is the way auto focus works - it's not measuring distance to the object, but instead analyzes the image from the sensor for sharpness and then adjusts focus until the blur goes away. This requires some calculations, obviously. All (or most) non-professional cameras work this way, but "real" cameras have dedicated processors for this stuff, and don't do it in "software" mode - hence, they are much speedier. The same must apply to HD2 - Snapdragon has some camera module AFAIK, and/or is much faster overall than the processor in HD (and it's not just the clock speed, the Cortex A8 architecture is way more efficient).
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If that is the case then i dont understand why they didnt use a CCD, much easier to build and if you need a processor for the auto focus to make it work then it makes little difference since you need a chipset anyway (cmos has most of its circuits onboard)
i put my money on a tiny sensor, but hopefully your right and it is a CPU limitation because its doing it in software, least it can only get better that way!
I dont know if this has been brought up before, if it has my bad.
Anyways, would it be possible hardware-wise to create a camcoder app that shot video at a low res but high frame rate, such as 100+fps? Are our camera sensors even capable of that? Other limitations would be storage and our slow little snapdragons i would think. Any thoughts? I think this would be fun to play with if it was possible
Are you talking about a high-speed camera or just one that records smoother pictures?
Sent from an ELITE Evo!
This is the family of camera modules that's used in the Evo: http://www.ovt.com/products/category.php?id=12
The product briefs say that it can do 120fps at qvga resolution, so it seems like it is technically possible. Coding it is the hard part, and I can't comment on that since I am not a programmer.
Judging by the specs and features, I would wager that we either have the OV8810 or the OV8812.
High speed.
Good to know its not limited by the camera. And me neither. Id love to see something like this.
I'm thinking about getting an Omnia 7 and I have a few questions about the device that I was hoping you could help me with:
(1) How is the call quality? I saw a review that made this out to be the biggest gripe with the phone.
(2) How good is the (A)GPS? I recall seeing complaints about it. It is pretty important for me that the GPS is fast and accurate. At least not worse than my current $100 nokia symbian s60v5 handset, which has in fact been very reliable.
(3) How annoying is the amoled screen? I know it looks great in terms of color, contrast and viewing angles, but I've seen some seriously angry threads elsewhere regarding the faux resolution issue with pentile matrix. 653x392 is it?
(4) Also, can you view the screen with polarized sunglasses in both portrait and landscape? I reckon it would go black at some angle, but is it a clever 45 degrees like the Iphone or 90 degrees like for instance the ipad? (youtube.com/watch?v=78GdcXCM9nk&feature=related)?
(5) I've seen a lot of 720p video recording samples and they all seem a bit jerky? From what I understand it is a CPU limitation? I also recall SonyEricsson had a similar problem with the same CPU on one of their handsets and they improved it slightly by tweaking the codec to dynamically lower recording quality? Anything like that happening on WP7 or Omnia 7? Any other fixes?
I'm thinking about getting an Omnia 7 and I have a few questions about the device that I was hoping you could help me with:
I think you should wait a little, to know when new devices will appear. (with Mango update comes new devices)
(1) How is the call quality? I saw a review that made this out to be the biggest gripe with the phone.
Phone call quality : quite good but not excellent, even with all firmware updates.
(2) How good is the (A)GPS? I recall seeing complaints about it. It is pretty important for me that the GPS is fast and accurate. At least not worse than my current $100 nokia symbian s60v5 handset, which has in fact been very reliable.
For me A-GPS is good, fast and accurate
(3) How annoying is the amoled screen? I know it looks great in terms of color, contrast and viewing angles, but I've seen some seriously angry threads elsewhere regarding the faux resolution issue with pentile matrix. 653x392 is it?
Wait for a Super AMOLED PLUS (the "plus" is the big difference : http://www.oled-info.com/super-amoled-plus-resolution-explained
(4) Also, can you view the screen with polarized sunglasses in both portrait and landscape? I reckon it would go black at some angle, but is it a clever 45 degrees like the Iphone or 90 degrees like for instance the ipad? (youtube.com/watch?v=78GdcXCM9nk&feature=related)?
I have polarized glasses : it's black about 45°.
(5) I've seen a lot of 720p video recording samples and they all seem a bit jerky? From what I understand it is a CPU limitation? I also recall SonyEricsson had a similar problem with the same CPU on one of their handsets and they improved it slightly by tweaking the codec to dynamically lower recording quality? Anything like that happening on WP7 or Omnia 7? Any other fixes?
720p is a litte laggy, new devices (with new processor like the MSM8255) will not have any problem
Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. And yes, I am waiting for the specs (and prices) of the new phones before I act. But I doubt that any of the new phones, like the Sea Ray, will be anywhere near €200 like the Omnia 7 is now on Ebay. Hence my ambivalence.
Is it still wise to get the Omnia 7? Or just wait for the Mango devices?
(1) In the UK on Three, the call quality is just fine, its better than my friends Blackberry Torch. Apparently there is a new Radio software that should improve it for everyone.
(2) The AGPS is ok I suppose, It works. GPS initially takes a minute or two (the VERY first time its used but afterwards, it gets a lock within 15 seconds) Accuracy is fine.
(3) The AMOLED screen has amazing quality but when looking at the screen VERY closely, the straight lines are very slightly jaggy. All AMOLED screens are arranged in the pentile pattern. The Super AMOLED Plus screens have the pixels arranged in a more traditional manner. However its not much of an issue for me, its probably wise to have a look at a Super AMOLED screen and judge for yourself!
(4) Not sure really, I can view the phone fine with 3D cinema glasses to pretty much most angles as without.
(5) I've shot a 720p video and it seemed fine to me! I doubt its a CPU limitation, its most likely the software which needs tweaking. Again, its probably wise to test one of these devices out to see how it performs. I think only one WP7 device has the MSM Snapdragon (which has an Adreno 205 GPU instead of our Adreno 200. Also its a die shrink which would use slightly less power)
Have you ever checked this folder /system/etc/camera? You can tune noise reduction, sharpness, contrast, hdr, night mode, light mode, nice food, scene recognition and many other algorithms as well. I have no knowledge and experience but if you want you can try and share your experience.
Sent from Honor 7
Spencer_D said:
Have you ever checked this folder /system/etc/camera? You can tune noise reduction, sharpness, contrast, hdr, night mode, light mode, nice food, scene recognition and many other algorithms as well. I have no knowledge and experience but if you want you can try and share your experience.
Sent from Honor 7
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LOL! Why did nobody recognized before??
There was a mod that tuned camera long time ago, but in a different way - https://forum.xda-developers.com/honor-7/development/mod-camera-mod-100-jpeg-compression-t3340978
Anyway, Honor 7 camera is amazing and highly underrated - mostly because of too much noise reduction and too big jpeg compression. Just by changing camera app to a third party one (like Snap Camera for example) that allows you to change jpeg output quality to something about 90-95% makes REALLY BIG difference. Stock camera app simply compresses files too much and in effect reduces quality and amount of details. Files from stock camera are like 5-7mb each, while the ones from third party app are like 14-20mb! One problem though - sometimes, when image photographed scene has actually too much detail and resulting image exceedes 20mb you get nothing. Probably some memory issue.
Thing is, Honor 7 had great potential (and camera was just a part of it), but the interest in this device was killed by Honor itself. People who owned it mostly already sold it as there are big issues in current software that will most likely never be fixed. Therefore i would not expect to get much developement in camera area as the userbase is now reduced. It wasn't big year ago and it's only getting smaller and smaller.
Not much replies here. Anyone oriented on this matter yet?
First of all, I tried third-party camera app (Open Camera) that gives me 100% jpeg quality option, but I haven't tested real life quality out yet. Definitely bigger file size.
Video is the one I'm trying to focus on, tho. Open Camera gives me options for bitrate. Tried 50 and 40 Mbps. With higher dynamics real life framerate didn't go over 14 fps. With locked and somewhat under adjusted exposure, it can handle 30fps on 1080p. But it's no good when trying to shoot "professional" video. Didn't check the real life bitrate either.
As supevixen stated there's some threshold on bitrate and/or jpeg compression buffer. Any idea why?
So what I'm trying to solve is;
- Why there's so low threshold on buffer and can it be optimized? Could it buffer better if I used fast external SD instead of internal?
- How to optimize buffer to match hardware maximum?
- Should I continue using third-party apps or should I try to optimize stock camera .xml files?
- How to reduce denoising? (xml optimization)
- How to lock frame rate and/or shutter speed on video recording? (xml optimization)
I'm not very familiar with jquery or imx230 or much about the Honor 7 SoC either. I'm fast learner and very interested on optimizing the camera.
Ok, here we go. I'd figure that: "/system/etc/camera/multidenoise" -> "multidenoise.xml" is for the "selfie camera" as it states attributes for IMX134 and IMX135. So this doesn't need optimization, if I'm getting this right. "/system/etc/camera/davinci/imx230" has "hdr.xml", "imgproc.xml" and "multiframe.xml" files. "imgproc.xml" I believe has everything to do with the image processing. "multiframe.xml" has everything to do with denoising and luma enhancing, I recon. How to properly reduce denoising? Should I also tinker with luma enhancement or image processing? Also, as I stated I'd like to lock down the shutter speed on video recording, with frame rate set to 25. "/system/etc/camera/bshutter/imx230/" -> "algo.xml" has algorithms for shutter behavior. Any way to optimize those?
Or should I simply throw this peace of crap out of my life? Camera has great potential anyway, would be shame to toss it away.
If there's someone with some knowledge on the matter, I'd be more than grateful. Thanks in advance.
anamorphica, i didn't try modding original camera app by editing various files as i don't wan't to lose warranty, but i've tried many different camera apps and best one i've found is Snap Camera which paid version i'm using right now. Why? Simply because it can save jpeg files with 100% and it makes HUGE difference. Just imagine - files saved by stock camera are about 5-6MB each where files saved by Snap Camera are about 16-20MB each! And difference is really BIG when you zoom just a little bit and as we have 20mpix camera sensor it actually does make sense to "zoom" by just cropping full image to desired part and gues what - it is possible with good quality images. Of course you can save jpeg's with different quality in most third party apps (like Open Camera or Zoom FX for example), but Snap Camera seems to work best for me (it's interface is ok, it does have many useful options) and it also has amazing HDR mode (three images with different exposure are stacked together for final one - there are other apps that work that way but believe me - results from Snap Camera are by far best)
There is however one downside - sometimes, when detail quantity is to big and output image exceeds ~20MB files are not saved. It happens rarely (really) but it has to be somehow connected with amount of memory needed to that amount of data (in RAW data it has to be much more than just compressed 20 megabytes) and that's probably one of the reasons why stock camera app saves such highly compressed images. Take note, that every other "creative" mode in stock camera doesn't output full res images (light painting and night mode - they're about 8 or 10mpix as i remember) and i'm pretty sure that's also connected with memory limitations (probably not whole RAM - just the part available at the moment for camera sensor and GPU)
As for video quality, there's probably not much we can do, as our Kirin SOC is limited. Where Sony smartphones with same IMX230 can record up to 4k and have OIS, we can do only 1080p with just electronic image stabilisation and pretty low bitrate. Slow motion is also pretty bad with framedrops...
Anyway, as for me, Snap Camera is the best and i'm not going to mess with stock one. Just when i need those light painting modes or night mode - it's ok. But in good light i'll stick with Snap.
Thanks for your reply.
I'd like to know if buffer is really low/restricted due to hardware limitation. As I see it, Kirin is overkill for the needed buffer and RAM should be more than enough.
Someone made 100% jpeg quality mod to "media_profiles.xml", but every bitrate etc. values were set to very odd numbers. It's just hard time to believe that this phone couldn't handle more than what it does now.
btw. I read somewhere that Honor 7 GPU would be plenty for OIS as it should be implemented on IMX230 and people was waiting for firmware update to fix much of those restrictions, well we all know that update never came.
Our Kirin is not that good actually. Not only it does have issues with energy management (that's why apps in background are killed on stock roms and why battery times are much less impressive with CM roms - without agressive app killer built in stock firmware) but it is also crippled on GPU part (no Vulkan compatibility) and not really video capable - like i've said, phones based on different SOCs with same camera sensor are more capable (different codecs etc.) Our phone can't even record perfectly fluent slomo video with stock app - just try it, it's never without freezes.
All in all, i don't think it's worth mess with internal configuration files - you won't get too much probably, at least on video part.