Database Users

2005 will be launched in Feb 2005

See this link for details:
http://www.mypda.com.cn/info/show_info.asp?infoid=1491[/url]

Anonymous said:
See this link for details:
http://www.mypda.com.cn/info/show_info.asp?infoid=1491
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Appreciate the ++ search. One thing I have noticed is the inconsistency in the "Start button icon". Everyimage looked different!
I mean, this could be fake or even made up pics :roll:
Are we ready for another BGates newbie :roll:

You got that right Cyber mate.
Will the companies like FONO, Axiom, Comtel or Plug-ins void our warranty if we do decide to move to 2005 Mobile?

No it won't
Every Pocket PC release since CE2.11 (except for 2003SE) has comeout in the Spring. Along with new devices. This time will be no different.

after the win mobile 2005 comes out - will it be posible to upgrade our devices or they (the phone makers) should fit the win 2005 (by software changes) for the device first?
(as you guessed it - im new and my first device is the mini )

Looks to me like that start button is still the size of a pea - which means if you are using your hand on the home screen, its almost impossible to hit that in the corner. And this suposed to be a serious, native PHONE OS? Wow.....

skagen said:
Looks to me like that start button is still the size of a pea - which means if you are using your hand on the home screen, its almost impossible to hit that in the corner. And this suposed to be a serious, native PHONE OS? Wow.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You've obviously never used WM2003. It's the same size as current version. You can touch the text or logo to access it and it's perfectly usable.
I would be nice to be proved wrong, but I very much doubt this will be made available on current devices. Their product life is just too short. It also looks like the UI is designed to use extra programmable menu buttons at the bottom of the screen, as on MS Smartphones. Few PPC PE devices have enough hardware buttons to support this.

Wrong. I have an I-mate Jam Phone (WM 2003SE). As I said, it is egnonomically retarded to make the HEART of entry into the device a tiny button crammed in one corner and taking up like 1/50th of the screen space.
If you were trying to make it harder to touch - you couldn't enough said.
And that is the START button? Wow! I'd love to know what Microsoft spends all their millions of dollars on usability budget on. That placement & size of the start button would get you an "F" if you were a student in design school. Its THAT elementary.
Its not just the "Start" button on the whole, the entire Win 2003 PPC OS is just very poorly sized considering that is suppesed to be a phone OS. Look at the notifications. You have to hit a thin ass line if you plan on turning it off. Want to close a windows, its a tiny ass x squeezed in the corner or a screen? I mean, hello.....
The should have tested these things with thumbs as well as styluses. Elementary design principles. Very elementary.
But that is exactly what heppens when you take a blinkered mentality ("we are Microsoft make Windows software for PC's". We must have a "Start" button - and put everything in there.") into the design of a thumb-operated phone.

skagen said:
Wrong. I have an I-mate Jam Phone (WM 2003SE). As I said, it is egnonomically retarded to make the HEART of entry into the device a tiny button crammed in one corner and taking up like 1/50th of the screen space.
If you were trying to make it harder to touch - you couldn't enough said.
And that is the START button? Wow! I'd love to know what Microsoft spends all their millions of dollars on usability budget on. That placement & size of the start button would get you an "F" if you were a student in design school. Its THAT elementary.
Its not just the "Start" button on the whole, the entire Win 2003 PPC OS is just very poorly sized considering that is suppesed to be a phone OS. Look at the notifications. You have to hit a thin ass line if you plan on turning it off. Want to close a windows, its a tiny ass x squeezed in the corner or a screen? I mean, hello.....
The should have tested these things with thumbs as well as styluses. Elementary design principles. Very elementary.
But that is exactly what heppens when you take a blinkered mentality ("we are Microsoft make Windows software for PC's". We must have a "Start" button - and put everything in there.") into the design of a thumb-operated phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
isn't that a matter of taste? i mean.. they COULD make the start button bigger but then maybe someone like I would say "hey its to big it takes up like ALL of the screen and i cant see my today screen" i for one have no problem using either the start button or the"x" button for closing using my thumb.
Maybe the best would be if one could maybe have like a stylus window (kinda like now) and a big button finger layout. just a thought.

It's not a phone OS, it's a PDA OS. I agree though, that the Smartphone Edition cound have an option to enlarge all buttons so that you'd be able to navigate with one hand.

Loboman said:
It's not a phone OS, it's a PDA OS. I agree though, that the Smartphone Edition cound have an option to enlarge all buttons so that you'd be able to navigate with one hand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont know any indusrty analyst who does not agree that these devices are converging - which has clear implications for software and OS makers: phone interface gets used often and requires seamless finger usage. Especially on devices with no physical phone keyboard! No rocket science required there.
And once you start selling OS software tilted "Windows Mobile 2003 Se for Mobile Phone", you're on the hook to delver something that works appropriately as a mobile phone OS! There is no escaping that one.
Ditto when your OS is designed for devices such as the Moto MPX and the Jam and the Eten 500. These are devices clearly made for those who are phone-oriented and will carry the device in their pocket everywhere - as opposed to the XDA II buyer who is more or a PDA and phone is just tacked on. Its in the Microsoft business plan to attack the market for such phone-like devices to challenge the treo and Blackberry - so they've gotta deliver credible phone ergonomics too!
I'd understand the omissions in 2002, maybe even 2003. But to come out with 2005 (when convergence is patently obvious and they are pushing heavily to be a phone OS) and they are still missing the boat with "Windows for PC" as the bedrock of their ergonomics?
As I said, I'd love to know what their user experience research budget is going on. A bunch of first year designs school students would have picked up on the obvious - as you yourself agree: if its a phone OS, you must have an credible option to go stylus-less, espcially for those primary phone options. As it is we are still at the level where dialers and today screen add-ons are legitamate commercial software. The OS should have presented a legitimate soultion there. That would be live Windows Longhorm coming out and they have a 3rd rate browser and a 3rd rate search engine as default in the OS. That's just not on - it's your primary interface and the OS must offer something up to par there, otherwise you are forcing users into slow and memory-eating add-ons such as Mobi Dial.

Loboman said:
It's not a phone OS, it's a PDA OS. I agree though, that the Smartphone Edition cound have an option to enlarge all buttons so that you'd be able to navigate with one hand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Errr.. please come back when you know what you are talking about. Smartphone Edition doesn't have on screen buttons - how can it when it doesn't have a touch screen. You *CAN* do everything with one hand. That's the whole point of the programmable menus at the bottom, one of which kicks off the Start menu.

Anonymous said:
Loboman said:
It's not a phone OS, it's a PDA OS. I agree though, that the Smartphone Edition cound have an option to enlarge all buttons so that you'd be able to navigate with one hand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Errr.. please come back when you know what you are talking about. Smartphone Edition doesn't have on screen buttons - how can it when it doesn't have a touch screen. You *CAN* do everything with one hand. That's the whole point of the programmable menus at the bottom, one of which kicks off the Start menu.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To make this clearer - all the menus on Smartphone Editions are linked to hard buttons on the phone. So the everything can be done one handed, and the size of icons doesn't matter jack sh*t. As for PE 2005 - that's why the new menus have appeared at the bottom - to give the benefits of Smartphone Editione on Phone Edition - so you don't have to touch the screen or dig out your stylus for common operations.
Why the obsession with the start logo, when tapping anywhere on the text will do? And why do you need to do this to get to the "phone" functions you keep banging on about? That's what the Green, Red, Contact and Calendar hardware buttons (and the Smartphone style "soft" keys) are for. What's difficult about that? If that's too complicated for you - maybe you should to go back to a Nokeeeyah!

I said the DEVICE is primarily phone-style one. Therefore the primary mode of use is fingers not stylus. - This means that various programs (which are buried in the start menu) need to be more accessible. Which is not the same thing as saying that its a phone and all you need is phone access.
If you think people buy a £400 PPC phone for calendar and contacts programs alone, then you dont know much about the market. The other programs the device runs need to be better accessible.
I couldn't care less if microsoft groupies are offended - it is a fact that Nokia has a better grips on the software ergonimics. If it makes you emotional, too bad. I'm more concerned with the fact that MS needs to think beyond the cliche and ergonimics of a Windows PC when they are designing a PHONE.

skagen, you are "gay" Go jackoff to your garbage Symbian OS which is buggier than bloody hell.

And Mikee you're an As*Hol* :evil:

Its a phone, dude. If it hs got things wrong with it, that's just the facts. If I though Symbian phones was better, then I'd buy a Symbian phone - duh! The Jam is better hardware than what's available on Symbian, but actually OS is not as intutive as Symbian.
This Win Mobile for PPC phone OS has some major failings and omissions - which is the very reason the XDA Develpers exists: til fill the gaps. And BTW, , we are not here to be teenage PPC fan-boys.That's for the kids on Howard Forums. This website here is about realistic assessment of these devices.

skagen said:
I said the DEVICE is primarily phone-style one. Therefore the primary mode of use is fingers not stylus. - This means that various programs (which are buried in the start menu) need to be more accessible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You just don't get it do you? They ARE accessible without using the stylus using the fully configurable HARDWARE BUTTONS, D-PAD navigation, on some models JOG DIALS and START and CLOSE BUTTONS, and with 2005, the SMART BUTTONS linked to the context sensitive menus at the bottom of the screen. Sheesh!

skagen said:
The Jam is better hardware than what's available on Symbian, but actually OS is not as intutive as Symbian.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you actually watched someone using a Symbian PDA/Phone combo? Yes, that's right. If you're not dialing a number, it's time to tap tappity tap with the stylus. The P800-910 series have LESS buttons, and so LESS direct access to applications, (not to mention, many 1000 less aplications) than devices using PPC PE!

Anonymous said:
skagen said:
I said the DEVICE is primarily phone-style one. Therefore the primary mode of use is fingers not stylus. - This means that various programs (which are buried in the start menu) need to be more accessible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You just don't get it do you? They ARE accessible without using the stylus using the fully configurable HARDWARE BUTTONS, D-PAD navigation, on some models JOG DIALS and START and CLOSE BUTTONS, and with 2005, the SMART BUTTONS linked to the context sensitive menus at the bottom of the screen. Sheesh!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The hardware buttons are already allocated for things that people would use. So its silly to be telling people "you can remap your contacts button to dictionary". Ok then - so how am I gonna get the contacts quickly.
On the Tungsten E, for example hit the center button on the D pad and you can immediately start pagig through your applications. Try that on the Jam- you cant. That's lame.

Default Messaging -> SMS

Hi,
How can I configure my trinity so that a click on messaging ALWAYS goes into the sms inbox and not my outlook inbox?
Any ideas?
Thanks
W

I would also like to know.
Windows Mobile is so remarkably badly designed. It just beggers belief. Just little things like this.
Also, do they expect you to get your stylus out just to close the phone? cos its very difficult to hit that tiny X in the top right corner with your fingers. They should make it a phone first, a pda second.
I think simply, they are idiots.

I have not any problems as you have. I choosed the sms one time and after that it always comes to sms inbox when I press messaging

...and if you log into MSN Messenger, it takes the liberty of loading your Hotmail JUNK onto the phone. Then it displays that you have say 2 new hotmail emails on the meesaging bar on the today screen. If you click on this its about another three clicks just to get to SMS. Then if you close it again and go back to Today screen, you click again on messaging and it is back in Hotmail inbox... requiring even more clicks to get it to SMS.
Each time i have to do this my life gets profoundly shorter.

just use left and right on the dpad to cycle through the messaging accounts

I really cant understand you guys: It is a VERY small device with amazing abilities. And WM5 can do a lot of things.

FuzzMunky said:
I would also like to know.
Windows Mobile is so remarkably badly designed. It just beggers belief. Just little things like this.
Also, do they expect you to get your stylus out just to close the phone? cos its very difficult to hit that tiny X in the top right corner with your fingers. They should make it a phone first, a pda second.
I think simply, they are idiots.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can close the phone app by pressing the red button, no problem.

FuzzMunky said:
I would also like to know.
Windows Mobile is so remarkably badly designed. It just beggers belief. Just little things like this.
Also, do they expect you to get your stylus out just to close the phone? cos its very difficult to hit that tiny X in the top right corner with your fingers. They should make it a phone first, a pda second.
I think simply, they are idiots.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you noticed a button with "OK" written on top? Have you tried to press the red button after the conversation is over? Have you noticed that pressing the menu button and selecting another program will send the phone application to background? I am asking because you don't seem to have spent much time trying to learn how to use a Windows Mobile device. There are at least three ways to close the phone without touching the screen but you haven't even found one.
Regarding the default account for messaging: I usually open Messaging from the entry in the Today menu and that always returns to the last used account, usually the SMS inbox for me.

Im just pissed because I cant get any SIP things to load without having to go through a long process of unloading today plugins and setting sipchange, then soft resetting, then reloading all the plugins.
I will admit, I didnt realise a press of the Red button exits the phone app. I eventually remapped a hold of the left button to close whatever the current app is. Useful for TOMTOM, so you dont have to go through the menus. I stlll find it annoying how you cant just have the messaging default to SMS.
There is definitely no denying though that for however much the programmers have got right, they are still so far from having the perfect implementation of a PDA OS, And they should be after this many iterations. They still have tiny keyboards, tiny scroll bars, buttons shoved into corners. Look at the iPhone interface and tell me that isnt a far more intelligently designed interface.
I like my device, dont get me wrong, Im just a perfectionist and I want to get rid of all the niggles I have with it. .. and I hated Windows 3.0 which this feels like a lot of the time.

FuzzMunky said:
There is definitely no denying though that for however much the programmers have got right, they are still so far from having the perfect implementation of a PDA OS, And they should be after this many iterations. They still have tiny keyboards, tiny scroll bars, buttons shoved into corners. Look at the iPhone interface and tell me that isnt a far more intelligently designed interface.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that most problems come from the fact that the PocketPC form factor was designed (or I should say copied from Palm) long before the idea of using it for phones. Most improvements in WM5 were actually related to making it more usable as a phone. So if there have been many iterations most of them were in a PDA context not a phone one.
Regarding the iPhone interface: I won't judge before I have actually used it, and most probably that is never going to happen

FuzzMunky said:
Im just pissed because I cant get any SIP things to load without having to go through a long process of unloading today plugins and setting sipchange, then soft resetting, then reloading all the plugins.
I will admit, I didnt realise a press of the Red button exits the phone app. I eventually remapped a hold of the left button to close whatever the current app is. Useful for TOMTOM, so you dont have to go through the menus. I stlll find it annoying how you cant just have the messaging default to SMS.
There is definitely no denying though that for however much the programmers have got right, they are still so far from having the perfect implementation of a PDA OS, And they should be after this many iterations. They still have tiny keyboards, tiny scroll bars, buttons shoved into corners. Look at the iPhone interface and tell me that isnt a far more intelligently designed interface.
I like my device, dont get me wrong, Im just a perfectionist and I want to get rid of all the niggles I have with it. .. and I hated Windows 3.0 which this feels like a lot of the time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just get an iPhone... but dont ask for thousands of games, dont ask for MS Exchange Push Mail, dont ask for Outlook compatibility (works bad on iPod), dont ask for Word, PowerPoint, Excel, dont ask for GPS, dont ask for WiFi and/or Bluetooth...
IMHO your ranting about small issues is not appropriate. Just read the manual and try the workarounds people show you here...

So are you saying that WM5 is perfect in your eyes? Or that if you have any problems with it you should never talk about them?
I am confused. Sounds like you just want people to shut up and be mindless consumers.

FuzzMunky said:
So are you saying that WM5 is perfect in your eyes? Or that if you have any problems with it you should never talk about them?
I am confused. Sounds like you just want people to shut up and be mindless consumers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only to you. I just think this: If I got one device with ten things working and one not (in fact it worked!) and another device with 3 things working I wouldnt call the 1st one "badly designed".

Well, let's see. As soon as people get their WM5 device I imagine they will want to put some application launcher buttons on the today screen.
Oh that's right; you can't without installing some third-party software.
Ok. So then they might want to make shortcuts to these apps using the keys on the front of the device.....
Oh that's right; you can't do that without installing some third-party software.
Would you prefer it if I precursed all criticisms with the positives? So, for example: Windows Mobile 5 is this, it's that, in fact, here is a run down of the binary code as a description of it and here are some technical specifications and a glossary of terms.... but... I think that they should let you place application shortcuts on the Today Screen.
Nonsense my friend, nonsense.

saminegm said:
Just get an iPhone... but dont ask for thousands of games, dont ask for MS Exchange Push Mail, dont ask for Outlook compatibility (works bad on iPod), dont ask for Word, PowerPoint, Excel, dont ask for GPS, dont ask for WiFi and/or Bluetooth...
IMHO your ranting about small issues is not appropriate. Just read the manual and try the workarounds people show you here...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because something is the most versatile thing available doesnt make it well designed. Take a closer look at your desktop Windows installation...Take a look at your car....

warnysouth said:
Just because something is the most versatile thing available doesnt make it well designed. Take a closer look at your desktop Windows installation...Take a look at your car....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But yes, I do appreciate the workarounds a lot, thanks,

FuzzMunky said:
Ok. So then they might want to make shortcuts to these apps using the keys on the front of the device.....
Oh that's right; you can't do that without installing some third-party software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I fully respect that Windows Mobile might not be your cup of tea (I had major trouble to adapt to the Nokia S60 interface but a lot of people like it) but to be honest I am just happy with having the last used applications appear automatically in the Start menu, something that no other phone operating system does. I have the programs that I use most frequently always available in that list and it has room for 5 entries which is more than enough for me. And you can choose the 6 items which stay permanently in the Start menu, so you have 11 programs easily accessible plus 3 customisable buttons on the sides of the phone. It works for me.

[idea] Dj Application

For those experimenting with software like Virtual DJ, I think it would be a cool idea to have a mobile version of a DJ program..
You could load 1 or 2 tracks in it and if possible record your progress
I thought of 2 ways that this could be done..
1. Screen Touch (One touch)
A disk could be shown on the screen and you could scratch the disk by moving your finger up and down on the disk.
IF possible you could have the 2nd song linked to the scrollwheel so that you could scratch 2 songs at the same time
2. The cool & hard way
A while ago i saw a video which showed that the scrollwheel area is capable of multitouch (left and right of the scrollwheel). However there are no applications that allow that yet (as far as i know)..it is possible though so thats what matters..
so the other way would be to use that area to scratch both of the sonds together if needed..
I remember that there is a DJ mixer software for the Nokia N series (symbian)..Hopefully someone can make this with a Diamond twist..
Any thoughts of this?
I somehow sense that people will start bashing about it being useless and posting comments like " Why dont you do it on the computer instead ffs!! )
Anyway, i think it would be a cool piece of software to have if its possible to make it ofcourse

useless, don`t see the point.
do it on youre regular PC, get a nokia N-series.
otherwise it is a great idea of having fun for the dull moments
so good thinking

groofoo said:
useless, don`t see the point.
do it on youre regular PC, get a nokia N-series.
otherwise it is a great idea of having fun for the dull moments
so good thinking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
by the way the nokia series version does not allow you to spin the disks but hopefully a diamond version will

That`s what I use.. sometimes...
Not exactly the app being demanded.. but maybe it will do.

I looked at Leo

The Leo's large screen size, capacitive touch screen, and the fast processors were the three factors that had long attracted me to this device, and I've been patiently waiting for it to come to Australian shore. On the 19th, I rushed to one of the Telstra shops and spent a good few hours playing with this exciting phone. Finally, a capacitive touch screen that would rival iPhone. Finally, I found a good replacement for my beloved 5 inch HTC Athena which I so much loved (See my review.)
I was surprised that I was the only customer in the store having any interest in the device, as I though there must be hugh interest in it. There was a guy wearing an HTC T-shirt ready to help with any questions on the device. I shall call him the shop assistant here. The shop assistant told me he has used 3GS for 6 months, and he thinks Leo beats iPhone in every aspects. He was given a unit more than a month ago, and if I had heard it right, he was sent to Taiwan for training, so I had the chance to clarify my doubt with him whenever a need arises.
Here were my findings:
POSITIVE
Screen size and clarify
=================
The screen size and clarify is amazing. I had expected that to be the case, and I was not disappointed.
I was also not detered by the size of the device. It is really small compared to my Athena. It is extremely pocketable. The device is also very thin and comfortable to hold.
I love the fact that HTC has removed the bezel to this extent. Well done, HTC.
Camera
======
The resolution was good, and the speed was fantastic. Did'nt have to wait for spinning colored wheels while saving.
Speed
=====
This is a fast machine. Absolutely no doubt with that. However, I also find moments when the device seems to be pausing and busy with things instead of responding to me right away. This is on an empty demo unit.
Overall Build
=========
I give it a high mark, based on my initial impression. The screen is grease prone compared to iPhone, but this is expected.
NEGATIVES
Keyboard
=======
Being used to the iPhone keyboard, I have to say that the HTC keyboard performs extremely poorly. This is despite the shop assistant's insisting that it is way way superior to iPhone "because of the larger keyboard".
I typed with the speed that I normally do with my 3GS, and here are samples of what I got:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
I invited the shop assistant to demonstrate his typing on his own Leo, and he too was making lots of mistakes. So much for a keyboard that is "way way better than iPhone's".
Camera
=====
Having used so many HTC camera in the past, I was not expecting too much here. I was surprised though that it was extremely fast - in fact faster than iPhone's. BUT, the pictures were all having an ugly pink patch in the centre!
When I discussed this problem with the Shop Assistant, he mentioned that his phone does not have this issue, so may be it is just the demo unit having the problem. He then offered his own Leo to me to try out. When I used his camera, it had exactly the same problem, and yet, the shop assistant insisted that he cannot see any pink patch!!! I spent some time pointing his camera to the floor, asked him to focus on a specific part of the floor, then move the camera from left to right, and it was obvious that the floor which was yellow/brownish in color turned pinkish when the centre of the picture frame moves across it. He was silent after that.
Web browsing
==========
When I used the www.smh.com.au website, I noted that the webpage was still wobbly throughout the rendering and only stabilised toward the end. The top part of this webpage keep changing rather than having the final layout fixed throughout the rending. I found this disconcerting.
When double tapping on a webpage, I was expecting the text to reflow such that it fits exactly to the screen width.
I was disappointed that it does not. I showed this to the shop assistant and he told me that double tapping has been patented by Apple, so HTC is not allowed to make it work!!??? He said I must use pinch zoom to achieve exact fit! Hello???
Finger gestures
===========
Many iPhone imitators tend to think that pinch/zoom, scroll, and double taps are the only gestures required to make their device friendly. I knew that they are way off the mark by such thinking, and wanted to see if HTC Leo understands this.
- The first thing I wanted to know is whether the excel spreadsheet has a way to select cells. In iPhone, we do a double tap, then without lifting the finger, drag the finger. I was trying to see if this has been copied over to Leo. I was disappointed that it has not been. In fact, I could not find any way to select the excel spreadsheet cells. Not out of the box from what I could see. I tried looking for ways to change the scroll mode to selection mode but it does not exist. I tried holding my finder down until the "T" sign appear to see if anything there lets me select the cell, and there wasn't.
- I then tried to see how easy it is to select text precisely. In iPhone, press and hold will bring up a magnifying glass showing where the cursor is so it is very easy to precisely place the cursor. With Leo, my finger covers the text, so I could not see where the cursor is. The only way is to use the keyboard arrow key which is a little clunky. To select text, I noticed that I have choose the text selection mode in the pop up menu, to change from the scrolling mode to text selection mode. A little inefficient and unproductive, I thought. I also has great difficulties selecting the text precisely down to the last character, because my finger covers the texts itself. A rather poor iPhone gesture imitation, I think.
- The traditional scroll bar has been replaced by a more finger friendly opaque scroll handle that only appear during scrolling. This is similar to the quickscroll2 feature in iPhone, but unfortunately it does not work across all applications like in iPhone, where users could instantly jump to any part of the webpages, or applications instead of having to keep swipping to the right spot.
Task switching and closing
====================
Out of the box, I could not find any easy way to switch between active task. The task manager that the shop assistant demonstrated was way too impractical as a task switching tool. It really needs something like Kirikae or Proswitcher in conjunction with Backgrounder of iPhone for multitasking.
I used to have WKTask but I'm not sure if it still work in this version of winmo. Without something like that, I would find it extremely frustrating as a user, whenever jumping from task to task. Multitasking with my iPhone is fabulous at the moment.
The shop assistant argued that I could only have such a feature if I jailbreak the phone which is too complicated and it also voids the warranty. This, of course is nonsense. Jailbreaking on iPhone is just downloading BlackRa1n.exe, run it and click on a button with iPhone connected to the PC. It takes about 30 seconds to complete. Also, unlike in Android, anyone can completely reverse jailbreaking by merely doing an equivalent of hard reset to factory condition.
Due to time and a phone call from my wife I had to stop looking deeper into the phone. Perhaps I will return another day to take a closer look.
Anyone having advice or comments on the listed negatives are welcome to do so.
Cheers.

You know, your reasons for being attracted to the HD2 is why I bought it. Weighing pros in against WM 6.5, I would hope for 6.6/7 to come along and iron out what I saw a trend was WM 6.5 being the most common negative point with the HD2 in reviews/users. Hell most of them would have been content with Android instead of WM.
For typing, I haven't used a touchscreen device (bar my Zune HD, but no text entry/calling heavy input on that sadly!) since the LG Viewty came out, along side the first Iphone whenever that was. I'm getting used to it but I feel much more competent using the widescreen keyboard by tilting. Did you try it? Predictive text sounds like it would be your thing from the screen you posted, the tutorial is really handy at the start. I can't compare it to using an Iphone but my friends at school say they prefer the HD2 because of the screensize and they make few/no mistakes.
Camera wise, I've made two registry adjustments in connection with Jpeg compression and the MPEG compression, so they are more crisp and detailed. I've seen the pink dot a lot and I can understand why the HTC guy you mentioned doesn't want to admit that's a problem, I haven't noticed it on my device but I've took quite dark pics. You can't really blame the dude, he's just making a living after all! I can't comment on web browsing, as I've done very little but I'm okay to use pinch to zoom, I can imagine you'd be frustrated without double tapping fitting the screen correctly. Atleast HTC are keeping to Patents unlike Apple/Nokia eh?
For task manager, the quickest method I find is pressing Windows button and it opens the programs list, with the task manager being at the bottom left side of the screen I find that quicker than going into settings, I guess you could make it a quicklink if you wanted?

It's begining to feel like i'm the only person that has none of the problems that people are posting about, with the exception of the over sensitive screen. (easily tweaked, no problem now)
Lots of people say 'on an iphone such and such works in every app' - yes, because apple forces every developer into a strict code of practice. Winmo may not be perfect, but there is no orwellian overseer watching everything and discarding anything it doesn't like the look of (plus taking 30% of any sales a developer makes, just for the privelage of being allowed to sell through their insanely tightly controlled 'marketplace', , , marketplace? one shop isn't a marketplace, its a shop, one shop, just one.)
IN answer to eaglesteve's negatives.
1 - Keyboard. You are correct, the default one isn't much cop. BUT, there are a number of excellent alternatives, my favourite being swype, which works fantastically well with just a little practice.
2 - CAmera. SOrry, I just don't have a pink spot, and i've tried to see it, really i have. Lots of different lighting conditions, plain white paper, different distances, and it just isn't there on mine.
3 - Excel. Again, the swype keyboard has a very handy keypad style screen with arrows, cut,copy,past, home, end, and a lovely 'select text' button which when toggled on lets the arrows select not just excel cells, but files in lists, words in documents, etc.
4 - Precision text selection. (Swype's text selection ignored for the moment) The magnifying selection box can be enabled with a simple registry tweak of changing a 0 to a 1.
5 - SCroll bar not being the same in all aps. OK, this one you are correct, BUT, thats because it is an open marketplace, not controlled by one egomaniac forcing the developers to all play by his rules or not at all.
6 - Task switching. It takes a minute or so to set up, but place a shortcut to taskmanager in the start menu, then that alows you to add it as a shortcut on the home screen. Result = press home key to get to home screen, then open taskman from there, two presses admittedly, but still no more than 3 seconds work.
7 - Jailbreaking. Goes back to the orwellian aspect of the iphone, you shouldn't NEED to jailbreak something you have paid good money for, you should be free to do as you please with it, and not have the manufactirer try and thwart you at every software update.
Not that I want to sound like i'm glorifying the HD2, it's all about preference, i just wanted to point out that your 'cons' aren't actually the big deal they may appear at first glance.

Keyboard: I use TouchPal, but the basic keyboard is fine - particularly if you have the predictive text working (it would have given you perfect results). {Note it does support mutli touch on the keyboard.}
Camera: no problems with mine (no pink spot). There was a patch to fix the problem on the HTC website (for those unlucky enough to have the problem)
Brower: Double-Tapping will reflow the text - I had no problems with the Sydney Morning Herald site.
Excel: You can select multiple cells via the Menu -> Edit -> Make selection.
Task switcher: There are quite a few switchers such as Xtask for WM6.5 (and WM6.5.5). The shop assistant is clearly a idiot as they are simple programs and no "Jailbraking" (custom ROM?) is required.
Re "poor imitation of iphone gestures" - text select has been around in the WM world since it began. Yes, it is dated. No it is not an imitation of the iphone.

Lynehammike,
Actually, the predictive text failed to correct the mistake. It appears that the error correction algorithm is not good enough. The only way to type correctly with the HD2's stock keyboard is to type very slowly and look carefully at where you touch the screen.
Are the vast majority of Leo owners having the pink camera problem or only a handful of unluckly ones? I remember vaguely that Nexus' camera also have exactly the same problem, so is this caused by faulty hardware then? I can imagine how costly it would be for HTC to mass recall the phones and replace the hardware. I wonder if they could use the software to manipulate the color in order to eliminate the pink hue?
No, double tapping does not reflow the text correctly. I tried both IE and Opera and know for a fact that they do not reflow correctly.
I'd go back and try the multicell selection the way you describe. Thanks for the tips.
The shop keeper did show me a task switcher, but task switching simply involves too many steps. With my iPhone, I simply double press the home key to immediately see the list of runnig task, and switch to any one, or kill anyone there. This works regardless of whether the taskbar is visible or not. And it would not kill off a process to cause the device to freeze.
There is really nothing to jailbreaking. It is as simple as running a cab file in winmo device, and nowhere near the complexity of Hard SPL and cooked ROM flashing.
Application programmers who detest the tight control of Apple, and do not wish to seek Apple's approval for the program they write can always take the Cydia route, which is itself a hugh application market. Really there is no real issue that needs worrying about. Upgrading from one Apple firmware to another is a piece of cake, and both App Store and Cydia's applications could be reinstalled automatically without any loss of settings or data after re-jailbreaking.
I really like the screen and CPU of Leo. I wish it can run Android OS. Nexus' hardware somehow does not appeal to me enough. Not as much as Leo's anyway.

I just read from this post that
"they(HTC) just covered the (pink hue) problem with some smart image correction settings. Same cannot be said for motion capture where the said algorighm would most likely slow down the capture and result in dropped frames at the highest settings and that's probabbly the reason why the defect is still visible on video captures ie the patch doesn't fix video capture"
I didn't occur to me to test the video also, but looks like the pink hue problem also applies to videos.

My 2 Cents
Hi steve, good to see u after u1000
I can just say that for a fast input and errorfree and most accurate, i use swype.I dont think so iphone can ever compete with that.I can type @ 100 wpm with swype and same goes for android.
well there are many task managers, available to let u switch among the tasks.
iPhone has safari so WM has lot of options with opera 10, which i guess iphone cannot have in near future.
Ability to visit sites like rapidshare.com and download big 100 mb files and save them to 16 gig storage card, i gues no OS can even think of it as of now.
Pich and zoom can work almost everywhere and it is more than perfect in excel, helping browsing, selecting rows, copy paste them, editing formulas(I am a sales head, so have to check lot of sales reports hence i prefer big screen)
Battery life is better thaniphone 3gs and it doesnt get hot loke iphone 3gs.Compass is also awesome, can be used in google maps(I guess in iphone to use compass in maps, a patch is needed and can be done only by jail break)
and of course upgrade to WM7, will make it more than perfect :d
I suggest, have a relook at it, and am sure u will get it

eaglesteve said:
Lynehammike,
Actually, the predictive text failed to correct the mistake. It appears that the error correction algorithm is not good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do u have XT9 on in the first place , judging on the screenshot? I tried doing a test and mine work perfectly well. even if i intentionally key in the wrong keywords provided in your screenshot, they autocorrect-ed for mine.

I agree with Kivine - in the photo you have definately dissabled the predictive text.
for reflow: double tapping works (with a small caveat). If you tap next to a photo - it does appear to reflow only the margins of the text next to the photos. If you double tap below the photo area it will reflow correctly.
Cheers,
Michael

Lynehammike and Kivine,
You mean the XT9 must turn green on the keyboard for it to work correctly? If so, I'd go back to give it another try. Thanks for the tips.

hdubli said:
Hi steve, good to see u after u1000
I can just say that for a fast input and errorfree and most accurate, i use swype.I dont think so iphone can ever compete with that.I can type @ 100 wpm with swype and same goes for android.
well there are many task managers, available to let u switch among the tasks.
iPhone has safari so WM has lot of options with opera 10, which i guess iphone cannot have in near future.
Ability to visit sites like rapidshare.com and download big 100 mb files and save them to 16 gig storage card, i gues no OS can even think of it as of now.
Pich and zoom can work almost everywhere and it is more than perfect in excel, helping browsing, selecting rows, copy paste them, editing formulas(I am a sales head, so have to check lot of sales reports hence i prefer big screen)
Battery life is better thaniphone 3gs and it doesnt get hot loke iphone 3gs.Compass is also awesome, can be used in google maps(I guess in iphone to use compass in maps, a patch is needed and can be done only by jail break)
and of course upgrade to WM7, will make it more than perfect :d
I suggest, have a relook at it, and am sure u will get it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey hdubli,
How are you mate. Good to see you here again!
100 wpm?? Are you serious? Sorrry, no offence, you would have to put up a youtube demo for me to believe you.
As to browser, there are at least 10 on the iPhone that I've been using and comparing. You have far better browser on the iPhone, sorry, it's true. Apple does not have 130,000 fart applications you know . You can probably find at least 30 browsers around, whereas you get probably about 5 in winmo platform?
As to saving hugh files from sites such as rapidshare, I do it all the time on my iPhone.
Device getting hot happens to my Athena, Touch HD, and iPhone occassionally. Not really a problem specific to any platform I think.
Compass on googlemap has always been there in 3GS since day one without patch. Did somebody tell you that only jailbroken phone can do that?
Yes, the promise that it will be upgraded to WM7 is a reason why I take an interest in Leo. However, I'm not sure if this is a smart thing, as WM7 is always in the horizon like a mirage in the desert, with availability date that is being pushed back all the time, to be replaced by WM6.X. I now do harbour serious doubt about Microsoft's technical abiliity to deliver, and question what they're doing. Here they have WM7, then there is a zune phone, and a pink phone.... I sure hope they know what they 're trying to do... At the moment, the real competition is between google and apple in the mobile phone area, with MS reduced to a mere pawn swept to the side, IMO. Unless MS comes back with something really good and really soon, they might just completely disappear from the scene, I'm afraid. Apple certainly does not see MS as a rival anymore in the smartphone business. The only credible rival is Google. That's why Apple is now trying to team up with MS, and to use Bing instead of Google as the default search engine in iPhone. You know what they say? The enemy of my enermy is my friend. It's an intereting world.

Hi there.
Well I will not argue and start a debate on WM Vs iphone , but my experience of 3 years of iphone and 8 years of WM and 2 years of android tells me that WM is still a better of all three.More freedom.
I can only say that the users report more and more problems on iphone, and all the iphones magic is on jailbreak else there is nothing.
You can get a youtube video to watch on wmpoweruser.com for hd2 and it is really very fast, i abandoned all my hard keyboard phones.
I suggest look it again from all the angles, basically the freedom which u will get, right from custom roms to apps, and lot of things which u already know, and I hope you will come back to the flavour again

I want to love my HD2 - help!

Hi Guys
I've had my HD2 for about a week now, and I *really* want to love it, but I'm struggling to bond with it, here's why.
Don't flame me just yet - I'm not an Apple Fanboi. Up until a couple of years ago I used Nokia phones, and I was happy. Then, by chance, I happened to be in New York (I'm from London) when a mate called me and said that iPhones were selling for upto £500 on eBay, and you could get them in NY for half that price. It was a "no-brainer" - I went to the Apple store and bought 4, came home, sold 3 of them and kept one out of curiousity. I'd never had an Apple device of any sort before this, and wasn't a fan - I'm a Windows bloke. (my day job is as a Windows Infrastructure Architect for large businesses). I hated Apple, and the approach they had to the control over their devices. The device was also the first encounter with a decent touch screen - my only encounter before that was an iPaq 4150 + stylus.
So I had this iPhone 8GB, and I learned how to jailbreak and unlock it in the UK. I did not expect to enjoy it much, but I found my self falling for it - the cliché'd phrase kept on applying - "it just worked". Exactly how you expected - everything. When I typed on the keyboard, I rarely made an error. When I browsed the web, I always hit the right link with my fat finger. Life was good - email was clear, intuitive - the right buttons were always "right there". There were drawbacks too (iTunes for starters), but these were sort of OK given the benefits. I had completely fallen in love with the thing.
Over the last couple of years, a good freind of mine had been coming over to the house with various phones to try and impress me. I shoo'd hm away with Blackberry Bolds, Storms, Android G1's and the like. Then, he came round with his latest toy - the HD2.
My first thought was "here we go again", but the more he showed me, the more I liked the look of it. I liked the nice big screen, Activesync email\contacts\calender, the multi-touch screen. I saw the way that the interface had changed from the old tiny "squared of boxes" look of Windows 3.1 to a nice finger freindly "big, modern, finger menus". The more I looked, the more I liked. I struggled a bit with typing on the keyboard, and navigating on the web, but I just thought that I needed to get used to it. It seemed to tick all the boxes. At last, I thought, Windows Mobile has finally come of age. I swallowed my reservations, and took the plunge, recieving my new phone 7 days ago.
Since then, I've had a love/hate relationship. I love the fact that I can actually make/recieve calls at home again (iPhone reception was fine everywhere, except in my house!). I've got a GPS now, and the compass. I love the quality of the camera and the video. I love that I have a flash. Looking forward to getting some great apps for them. I love the whole "smooth" flow of apps like the album for viewing pics and vids. I love that I can plug it in to any PC and install an app right there.
But then i find that there's no central repository for Apps really - Windows Mobile Marketplace is a joke - there's hardly anything on it. I'm left Googling in a hit and miss way for something I want. Which brings me to the next point - touch accuracy. I just can't get used to the screen. It takes me about 5 attempts to click on any given link on a web page, usually I hit the wrong link first, and have to go back a page, then try again. Typing with the on sceen keyboard is a disaster for me. It's like the phone has Parkinson's Desease - I just can't ge the letters I want consistently, and this makes typing a nightmare. it's compounded because when I try and hit the backspace key to correct stuff, I often miss that and end up with more unwanted characters. I don't like the tiny little "x" and "ok" buttons in the top right corner to close apps.
So I thought, "what version of the software have I got? Maybe an update to ROM, Manilla, etc will improve things." I had UK T-Mobile 1.43 ROM, so I looked around and decided that I'd upgrade to Artemis 5.5. This has improved things a bit (nicer control menus for closing apps and menues), but crucially not the way the keyboard and web respond. I also seem to suffer from the "shaking" when dragging a web page up and down, occasionaly. I was videoing a scene the other day, and the video was interupted by a DHCP message, FFS! A DHCP message!!! So the scene was half filmed. What a f*** up.
The whole experience is a real roller coaster, and I *so* want to love this device, but I'm left so exasperated by some of the basics, that I find myself avoiding using it, searching for a laptop instead. And now it seems that Windows Phone 7 will not available for the device. I'm even considering cancelling my contract, and returning the device.
Can anyone use the keyboard and web accurately? Any advice or suggestions, forecasted upgrades or similar that might help?
If you got this far - thanks for listening!

To tweak the links in Opera look in the very first sticky thread in this forum, try some of the other tweaks there too.
The keyboard would be much better with swype, shame it doesn't seem to be available any more

put a 3rd party keyboard (e.g. touchpal reduced my typing errors by more than 50%, or you can use resco keyboard which has an iphone skin by default) and always double tap to zoom before clicking on a link or pinch to zoom for more. that's how I learnt loving this bad boy

you sound to me as if you want to love the HD2 like you loved the Iphone
the thing is every device has its own nuances and niggles, I still yet have to
encounter someone who was actually totally satisfied with their gadget right
from the start up to the very end of its life expectancy.
this is why we have this world wide forum of XDA so people all over the world
with their varied expertise can tweak this and that, improve this and that
you know what i mean.
when I had the device >2 weeks ago, i did not
flash straight away (despite being a junkie with the Touch HD) as I wanted to
get the original feel of the stock 1.66 ROM, I listed down some areas which may
need some improvement. One was the Camera being over exposed with flash
in a dark environment, another was the checker board when scrolling in Opera.
By reading through and searching and participating, I found that Dutty HG 1.1
had most of my problems solved, so I flashed it, and its been almost a week
on and I can say to myself I am a bit happier with it than the Stock 1.66 ROM
I would'nt say i'd be happy with this totally and forever, things out there are improving and developing.
to summarize things it all settles down on how much you stick out and appreciate
any device/gadget. happiness is a fleeting feeling, enjoy each moment
while it unfolds in your eyes and fingers.
that is my little piece for winmo.

ozkaya said:
put a 3rd party keyboard (e.g. touchpal reduced my typing errors by more than 50%, or you can use resco keyboard which has an iphone skin by default) and always double tap to zoom before clicking on a link or pinch to zoom for more. that's how I learnt loving this bad boy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I always double tap too - Stopped most of the wrong link selecting for me !

don't give up on your typing skills just yet. It took me about 2 months to get used to it, now I'm typing nearly as fast as on a laptop.

screen (over) sensitivity and dodgy key input are the two biggest drawbacks of the hd2.
install bsbtweaks for the screen sensitivity reduction tweak, and using swype (from the omnia, not the t mo one which can cause issues) solved it for me. typing takes a good few weeks to get used to, but gets easier and easier as you get used to it.(typing this on the bus using swype)

sn0rg said:
But then i find that there's no central repository for Apps really - Windows Mobile Marketplace is a joke - there's hardly anything on it. I'm left Googling in a hit and miss way for something I want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try OpnMarket for apps. Marketplace indeed is a joke...
As for the rest; don't give up yet. I had the same issues as you do now regarding typing and generally touch interface. I'm running Tom's ROM right now and I find typing is much improved compared to 1.48 or 1.66... I don't use the reduced sensitivity cabs floating around xda or BsB Tweaks. 1.48 was a catastrophy, but things improve all the time. So don't give up just yet - you'll get used to your device. I took you some time before you loved (ieeeeeuw, nasty ;-)) your iPhone, give your HD2 a month or two. It's a superior device, really.
Grtz from fellow windows sysadmin
Lukas

The Resco keyboard really helps with typing. And a new ROM speeds the Leo up. I think the reason perhaps the iPhone seems better is because its a simpler device. Our Leo's do a considerable amount more, so learning it is bound to take some time.

witch1 said:
The Resco keyboard really helps with typing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello,
I tested Resco and it looks really nice,
but
- the different skins did not work and
- in the standard iSkin I have only two field:
a numerical and a alphabetical.
There I miss some keys, for example < > [ ] and Backspace ....
Is this only in the test version the case?
eshd

Thanks for the replies I'm working through some of the suggestions now

Let's make it simple: some HD2 devices are definitely flawed and have a physical touchscreen problem that you won't be able to fix with software tweaks, new ROMs or whatever.
The first thing you need to know is if you device is flawed or not. A very simple test is to use the Note application and try to draw straight lines when you use your finger slowly.
The second thing you need to do is check out this very complete thread (click here). In there, you'll find most symptoms that are associated with these flawed devices. Some of these symptoms is called "The Electrocardiography"... It seems like that is what you called with another medical term "Parkinson's desease".
If you have one or more of these problems, you might want to check the hotfix that was given by the same guy who run the thread. The hotfix is in this thread here. It won't correct 100% of the problem, but it might be a BIG help.
If you go through all these steps and are not fully satisfied with the results, you might consider sending back you device to customer service (that's what I did until I got a perfect unit).
Think about it all.

Are you sure your HD2 is working correctly? I had the same issues as you and after two weeks I decided enough was enough and sent it back for a replacment. I have had that for three days now and it is a big improvement. The shaking when scrolling has gone and the typing is as good as the iPhone I tried. I am now very happy with the HD2.