Database Users

GPS to be unlocked by Sprint in Q4

I was told by my friend who works at Sprint today that they will be unlocking the GPS in Quarter 4 of this year.
She said that originally they did not unlock it as they were having issues with the hardware and software, but are prepping to unlock it soon to us.
Sorry if this has been put out there already, but thought I would share what I heard. hopeful anyway, huh?

Is this guy a reliable source of info? Or is he a rep who hears stuff through the grapevine like the rest of us? (I've heard some crazy misunderstood info coming from people who "work for sprint")
Over at ppcgeeks.com someone dissasembled their Mogul and the general conclusion was that the GPS had been disabled via hardware, although they admit they're not sure.
The rumor also was that it would be available to us with the Rev A update due to come out soon. Although no one knew for sure where this info came from. Could be someone made it up, wishful thinking.
So, yes, this rumor has been around, but we're still waiting for someone to actually confirm it.
Honestly, I'll beleive it when I see it.

Dishe said:
Is this guy a reliable source of info? Or is he a rep who hears stuff through the grapevine like the rest of us? (I've heard some crazy misunderstood info coming from people who "work for sprint")
Over at ppcgeeks.com someone dissasembled their Mogul and the general conclusion was that the GPS had been disabled via hardware, although they admit they're not sure.
The rumor also was that it would be available to us with the Rev A update due to come out soon. Although no one knew for sure where this info came from. Could be someone made it up, wishful thinking.
So, yes, this rumor has been around, but we're still waiting for someone to actually confirm it.
Honestly, I'll beleive it when I see it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This person is a software engineer at Sprint, and she said that the reason they didn't have it unlocked in the beginning was due to a hardware/software conflict, but that it will be unlocked in an upcoming ROM update. She said that Sprint had announced it somewhere internally.

I have a few contacts in sprint, I'll try verifying this tommorow

From what I understand, the Mogul has A-GPS. This is the same GPS that allows them to find you if you make an emergency call. It does not work off sattelites but rather from cell towers.
On the bright side, it shares the same Qualcomm 7200 chip that the Kaiser will use.
Some maintain that the Kaiser has built in GPS, others claim it has no satellite antenna and requires an external antenna.
Sprint originally advertised the phone as having GPS. Now that has been removed from their advertisement.
It will be ineresting to see what will happen with the evdo rev. a upgrade later this year.

rambo6 said:
From what I understand, the Mogul has A-GPS. This is the same GPS that allows them to find you if you make an emergency call. It does not work off sattelites but rather from cell towers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. The bottom line from what I understand is that the Mogul does not have the built-in hardware to do full GPS that will work with independent mapping software (Google, etc).

[RANT]This is getting a bit old - people claiming that A-GPS does not work off satellites.
Please do some research before posting this type of mis-information.
A-GPS is Assisted GPS. It uses information from the cellular network to ASSIST the GPS for faster TTFF.
And the Mogul uses a different chipset than the Kaiser. One uses the 7200, while the other 7500.[/RANT]

Ok... so now that you ranted... is it your opinion that the Mogul will or will not be able to do full GPS?
And actually.... A-GPS doesn't directly work off of the satellites. Since it takes a long time for a cell phone device to download the positioning data from the GPS satellites, what the A-GPS system does is let the A-GPS servers at the cell towers download and accumulate the data, the cell phones then talk to the A-GPS servers to get the data (which happens within seconds).

When A-GPS is enabled, would it have the possibility to work with Mobile GMaps ? Or is the Java still restricted?

Don't we have A-GPS already enabled? Isn't that the little GPS icon in the phone dialer? I know I have the option to turn it off/on in the phone settings just like all other agps handsets.
If something is going to be "enabled" with a new update, that means it will most likely be real standalone GPS.
TC1, no one knows that for sure. It was speculated.

I AM POSTING THIS FOR THE LAST TIME
The Mogul has the Qualcomm msm7500 as its cpu. BUILT INTO the cpu is the gpsone chipset. This is able to achieve AGPS as well as GPS. It runs in 4 different modes. To have the serial link to work with applications the chipset must be run in standalone mode.
It is on the damn phone as it is part of the cpu! It is currently not in standalone mode so there is no way to access the chip. The only true thing up in the air is whether or not the phone can obtain a satellite lock in standalone mode.

Dishe said:
Don't we have A-GPS already enabled? Isn't that the little GPS icon in the phone dialer? I know I have the option to turn it off/on in the phone settings just like all other agps handsets.
If something is going to be "enabled" with a new update, that means it will most likely be real standalone GPS.
TC1, no one knows that for sure. It was speculated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct, like almost every modern cell phone, A-GPS is enabled. There is no debate there.
I agree with you regarding speculation on the "stand-alone GPS" aspect. I've never seen definitive info from HTC that says yes or no on this subject. If there is real info regarding this, some links would be nice.

HTC's site says:
It is widely rumored that this phone has a GPS chip that has been disabled. Will there be a hack or workaround to enable GPS capabilities?
Answer: Not likely, it is AGPS which requires a connected call to get data location.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Sonix6 said:
HTC's site says:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thats from their wiki site, so its not necessarily true
/me keeps fingers crossed

This would be good news. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for this.

gpsone (in most all msm chipsets including kaiser and mogul):
How gpsOne Works:
The gpsOne technology functions in four different modes of operation. Chosen automatically or specified by software, the
four modes are Standalone GPS, Mobile Station (MS)-based, MS-assisted and MS-assisted/Hybrid. In the A-GPS modes,
gpsOne technology utilizes assistance data from a location server in the wireless network in combination with A-GPS circuitry
and software in the wireless device.
Note: The common term used by standards bodies for the handset/terminal device in CDMA2000 is "Mobile Station" (MS) and in WCDMA (UMTS)/GPRS/GSM/HSDPA/EDGE is
“User Equipment” (UE). For simplicity in this document, references to the handset/terminal will be "MS," but this use implies both MS and UE.
Standalone GPS: The GPS receiver calculates a position without using any assistance data and without a connection to
the wireless network.
MS-Based: The GPS receiver calculates the position using assistance data from a location server to increase cold-start
sensitivity and reduce the start time for an initial position calculation.
MS-Assisted: The GPS receiver uses assistance data from a location server to make measurements related to its distance
from the GPS satellites, then sends this information to the location server where the position is calculated. This mode also
increases cold start sensitivity and reduces the start time for an initial position calculation.
MS-Assisted/Hybrid: Wireless network information is added to GPS measurements as part of the position calculation by
the location server, integrating the relative strengths of GPS information and available wireless network location information
for increased positioning reliability in difficult GPS environments.
In assisted operation, a gpsOne-enabled handset receives
a small “assistance data” message from a network location
server using standardized protocols
• The handset then reads information from GPS satellites to
measure its distance from all the satellites it can see (called
“ranging” information).
• The handset then uses this ranging information to create a
position “fix,” or sends the ranging information back to the
server where it can be combined with network information
to produce an even better fix.
• gpsOne also operates in Standalone mode, without requiring
any assistance data from the network
straight from the gpsOne document.

interesting indeed... question is, will Sprint release firmware that allows it to run in standalone mode?
I suppose the truth is, even if it doesn't, someone can figure out how to enable it with some sort of hack eventually since its just software controlled according to this document.

has anyone played with this reg key?
\HKCU\ControlPanel\PhoneExtendFunction\CDMA\GPSOneSetting = 0
Edit: the value does not contain a space between "GPSOne" and "Setting", but vbulletin modifies my text when i post....

I don't know if this info helps or not... I spoke to a HTC TS and they told me the 6800 has GPS but is sprint decision to enable it or not. He also told me that it can be unlock but sprint is the only one with the code and he can not provide me with that info.

New poster old reader, may be found some info.
I found Many info that may me can help somebodies about the msm 7500 (gpsOne technologie)...It is hard to know what to believe 'cause half/half
people say that this is impossible, and the other half say that gonna happen soon. I think that we should make our own idea by our own knowledge . I found many topic on many forum (htc, gpsunderground,here...ask me if interressed) One Qualcomm offical site i've got pdf about msm chips, and gpsOne tech... (Snap track location service for gpsOne may be a good start point to invest)
Interessing link's:
FCC test repport for tita100 (titan) (That include plane mode settings):
https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas...lledFromFrame=N&application_id=391628&fcc_id=
Here it seem to be codes:
http://www.wlt.net.cn/index0/FD-800/pdf/CNI FD-800 gpsOne Menual ver1 0_0117.pdf
Similar:
http://www.wlt.net.cn/index0/FD-800/pdf/FD-800_Application_Guide ver1 0(1).pdf
And found other about SDK from Qualcomm API's seem to be aivalaible to third party dev. Also seem to be hard to be registred as dev. But hope...
And if internal budies have code it is just a time question before a solution.
So i wish that i'm not making more mistake or false info...if tell me.
And for gps freak who will tell that different anthenna needed, diffrent frequencies for GPS...see the end of the document FD-800 manual (2nd link).
So thank for this helpfull forum, forgive my poor english expression, and lack of programming knoledge , my is disignig pcb, and electrical pannels, but not to programme them's( not enough )...

(Help) Google Maps My Location and Vogue

So Google is currently offering a beta version of the GPS Emulation software in the latest Google maps. My problem is that I can't get it to work with my Sprint Touch (Vogue), I keep getting a "Your location is currently unavailable" message. A co-worker of mine is able to get the My Location feature to work on his Blackberry. I was wondering if sprint is blocking this part of the software. Any insight into this issue would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Edit: Yeah sorry my location is Chicago, IL and my carrier is Sprint. Apparently it works on the regular touch so maybe a different ROM would fix it. According to Google the reason My location isn't working is because "The device is not reporting a cell". Now I haven't got a clue what that means, so if someone more knowledgeable has any idea any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jack Everyman said:
So Google is currently offering a beta version of the GPS Emulation software in the latest Google maps. My problem is that I can't get it to work with my Sprint Touch (Vogue), I keep getting a "Your location is currently unavailable" message. A co-worker of mine is able to get the My Location feature to work on his Blackberry. I was wondering if sprint is blocking this part of the software. Any insight into this issue would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hasn't worked for me either in the Baltimore <-> DC area. I'm assuming Sprint is blocking it.
If you do get it working report your general area and cell provider.

The GPS feature of the Sprint Touch has not been activated yet, offcially.
Unless I am misunderstanding your questions... It won't work until GPS is turned on...

Insoc said:
The GPS feature of the Sprint Touch has not been activated yet, offcially.
Unless I am misunderstanding your questions... It won't work until GPS is turned on...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This services uses Cell Tower Triangulation when GPS is not available...SO it should still work

As well sprint does list the Touch as one of the phones that works with their Family Locator software. So...

I was wrong...
http://informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/11/google_talks_up.html
Sorry, I was wrong about the GPS comment...

I'm on Bell in Canada, the GPS locating didn't work for me but I did get an automated call from Bell the other day welcoming me to their service, the message also mentioned that my "phone has a global positioning chip that will help locate you in a case of emergency"
So we need to figure out how to unlock GPS. I heard Sprint will be providing an update that unlocks it sometime soon, but that doesn't help me

I have a Htc Touch with Telus, and because GPS is disable for now, I was able to configure a External gps receiver with Google Maps mobile. Works very good.

Google Maps
The locator in Google maps doesnt have anything to do with GPS. I have sprint with the touch in Utah and mine doesnt work either.

The google maps locator is based on cellphone tower triangulation and it seems to be not compatible with sprint at this time. I 'think' microsoft is working on this with sprint for live search too ... someone in livesearch told me the other day "I can't tell you what we're working on but we've got more new things coming (for livesearch)" when I mentioned it.

..cont
It's a nifty idea and free but it's not all that accurate... like a few blocks to a mile or more.
I don't know about you but when I'm in my car I can usually tell you where I am within a mile or so without the help of a satellite or other electronic devices.

If the live search rumor is true that is great, but my interest in this is not to know where I am, but to know what is around me.

I don't this this technology will work with Sprint or Verizon because of the way CDMA works. Maybe in the future but not now.

Here's the article that said it was coming on Live Search/Sprint
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/09/18/sprint-microsoft-roll-out-location-based-live-search/
Sprint, Microsoft roll out location-based Live Search
Posted Sep 18th 2007 12:02PM by Donald Melanson
Filed under: Software, Sprint
It looks like Sprint users now have a few more search options at their disposal, with the carrier and Microsoft announcing today that Live Search will now automatically take the users' location into consideration. Apparently, the service makes use of cell-tower triangulation, and not GPS, to determine the users location, making it somewhat less accurate but far more widely available. What's more, the pair also announced a new voice search feature that'll work with five of Sprint's high end phones, including the Samsung a900 and a920, the Motorola Razr, the Sanyo 840 and the LG 550. As you can probably guess, it will let you speak search terms instead of typing them in, with it also giving you the option to press a button to call the business you're searching for. While Sprint is getting all Microsoft's attention at the moment, the company is quick to point out that the service is not exclusive, and "could become available via other operators in the future."

...more
note reference to GPS and 2008 update
https://shopbiz.sprint.com/popup_product2.php?phone_id=MP6900SP&bundleID=2256
http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/rumors/sprint_to_finally_switch_on_gp.html

I'm on Bell Mobility in Ottawa, Canada (Village of Carp) and "Your current location is temporarily unavailable" shows up for me too. I have the Vogue and blazing 1 Mbps speed. I'm opening up Google Maps every time I go out and hit 0 trying to get the towers more input. What is the word on Bell and Google Maps, am I doing this for nothing? Greater Ottawa has a population of 1 million, is Canada's capital and, therefore, should be a large dot! Mind you, best we stay hidden from nukes I guess....
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}

I am in the GHBOA - Greater Hamilton, Burlington, Oakville Area (anyone who lives here will think that’s funny) and also on Bell Mobility and I am getting the same “Your current location is temporarily unavailable” message.
I double-checked to make sure that my location service was turned on. My understanding from what I have read is that Google Maps will:
A) Use true GPS if present and show a blue dot to represent approximate location.
B) Fall back to tower triangulation if GPS is not available and show a blue dot with a light blue “halo” around it to represent approximate location.
On top of that I think we have also established in another tread on this board that the Vogue does indeed have a true GPS receiver inside but we are waiting in a firmware upgrade to enable it. In the meantime however the approximate location service using tower triangulation should work.
Perhaps GSM and CDMA networks report tower triangulation information differently and perhaps Google Maps only knows how to use the GSM info??? I have no idea if that makes sense but we CDMA folks do seem to get the short end of the stick a lot

I have a crazy idea that I want to “air” here and see what others think. Could it be that the Google Maps “My Location” feature doesn’t work on the Vogue because the Vogue has a real GPS receiver that is currently disabled?
I am thinking this because I did the following:
Start > Settings > System > External GPS > Access
There I disabled the “Manage GPS automatically”. This feature apparently gives Windows control of the GPS receiver and Windows marshals which programs can access it.
I then reset Google Maps and tried “Menu > Use GPS”. This resulted in “Initializing GPS” for a few minutes after which I got a message saying my GPS receiver wasn’t responding.
However I then went back into Start > Settings > System > External GPS > Access and re-enabled the “Manage GPS automatically” feature. I then went back into Google Maps (after resetting it again) and tried “Menu > Use GPS”. This time it resulted in a “Seeking GPS satellites (0)” message that never seemed to stop and never reported an error message.
So, my thinking is that perhaps Google Maps knows there is a physical GPS receiver in the Vogue and is trying to talk to it indefinitely and as a result is not falling back to tower-triangulation mode. Because the GPS is present but not enabled in the firmware Google Maps knows it is there but isn’t getting the appropriate response that would cause it to give up on GPS and switch to “tower” mode.
Just a thought... Does this sound reasonable to anyone?

That's exactly what I observed and thought as well, but people tell me I need more cell users to use GMaps for tower input. I'm beginning to think that's not the case, too many other reports of "unavailable" in highly populated areas. The Vogue just CAN'T do it on Bell CDMA. Has there been ANY positive reports with this box and CDMA? Nope...

touchbell said:
That's exactly what I observed and thought as well, but people tell me I need more cell users to use GMaps for tower input. I'm beginning to think that's not the case, too many other reports of "unavailable" in highly populated areas. The Vogue just CAN'T do it on Bell CDMA. Has there been ANY positive reports with this box and CDMA? Nope...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think we may just have to wait for that firmware upgrade that’s supposed to enable EVDO Rev A as well as the GPS.
At least this confirms that Google Maps behavior is modified by the GPS settings in Windows. It apparently “thinks” it is talking to a GPS receiver when you enable it on the Windows side. Assuming my theory is right maybe Google will come up with an update that lets the user specify to use tower-triangulation all the time regardless of the presence of a GPS or not.

Obtaining more than one CELLID and signal strength?

Is this possible, I have been able to find some code here and there about obtaining the call id in windows mobile but nothing about getting multipul values. I found this line on wikipedia
"Interestingly, all the present GSM modem/mobiles (Telit, SIMCOM, HTC, Nokia etc) are coming with some extra feature to monitor the neighboring cells and its RSSI value. Theoretically you should get 1+6=7 cell information(1 home cell ID, 7 BCCH info+ 7 RSSI). If you can prepare the database of GPS location of the 7 cells, it is not impossible to locate your location with very high accuracy (<100 mtr)."
If I could do this then the application I am currently creating would become much more appealing.
any help is greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the bump just very interested if anyone has any experience in this?

I was looking into CellID information not too long ago, and as far as I understand, WinMo doesn't have any available APIs to get information for the other 6 towers... Most likely it has that information for the OS use only, but it doesn't look like there's any ways to pull it out of there....

Thanks for the reply I really appreciate it. Not being able to obtain that information is very annoying imagine having relatively accurate location without GPS. oh well maybe they will release this soon.

A Windows Mobile app for location tracking in a route without GPS and internet
Where am I (Wami) is a Windows Mobile application suite that tells you where you are in the middle of a trip, without GPS and without connecting to the internet, using cell broadcast and cell tower information and a pre-recorded route file instead. It works by recording cell broadcast and tower information along a route into a route file and then using the current cell broadcast/tower information to index into the route file and find out the relative location within the route.
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/mobile/wami.aspx
VirtualGPS Lite 1.45 - is a free, small utility, which fully emulates GPS module and returns your location (by using cellular towers and wi-fi hotspots). Accuracy of coordinates is about 50-500m.
http://www.kamlex.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=30
This does work with TomTom emulating built in GPS on my htc prophet but not accurately

wapvirus said:
Where am I (Wami) is a Windows Mobile application suite that tells you where you are in the middle of a trip, without GPS and without connecting to the internet, using cell broadcast and cell tower information and a pre-recorded route file instead. It works by recording cell broadcast and tower information along a route into a route file and then using the current cell broadcast/tower information to index into the route file and find out the relative location within the route.
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/mobile/wami.aspx
VirtualGPS Lite 1.45 - is a free, small utility, which fully emulates GPS module and returns your location (by using cellular towers and wi-fi hotspots). Accuracy of coordinates is about 50-500m.
http://www.kamlex.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=30
This does work with TomTom emulating built in GPS on my htc prophet but not accurately
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks a lot for this information. annoyingly the first would not suit my project and the second sounds very interesting but there is no way to know how the developer gets their position from the cellId, they state that the accuracy is between 50-500m which if true is far superior to simply checking cell Id as i though that could be as far out as 3km .
If anyone does know or can think of a way to improve accuracy when not using gps I would be very interested to hear from them.
all the current technologies seem to need the participation of the network. I guess if you cannot access multiple cell Id's you wont be able to tell your phone to connect to a different cell tower. I wonder if there is any way of accessing the cell id of different operators cell towers, for example when you search for a gsm connection it will find all that are available, surely at this point your phone is querying all the towers.
in the software described it says that you can also estimate location based on ip's I thought they wouldnt be very accurate, also wouldn't you have to get a connection to work out the ip anyway and most wifi networks are password protected.
*edit* Also does any one know the answer to this? how does google maps give an aproximation value e.g. you are here within XXmeters are there any examples of people being able to retrieve this data along with the central position?

all the current technologies seem to need the participation of the network. I guess if you cannot access multiple cell Id's you wont be able to tell your phone to connect to a different cell tower. I wonder if there is any way of accessing the cell id of different operators cell towers, for example when you search for a gsm connection it will find all that are available, surely at this point your phone is querying all the towers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tested the virtual GPS the figures they quote are few and far between using cell id alone i would say a good 1/4 mile off they must use the same info as Google maps because my position was the same in goggle maps as in tomtom using virtual gps

wapvirus said:
Have you tested the virtual GPS the figures they quote are few and far between using cell id alone i would say a good 1/4 mile off they must use the same info as Google maps because my position was the same in goggle maps as in tomtom using virtual gps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No I didn't use the software because I have built in gps and didn't want it to change any settings. so your saying its likely cell id alone? I supose that he may be right saying that it is usually 50-500meters out that seems to be consistent with the values i have obtained from google maps although they do always give a much larger error margin then that. for example where I am right now I would say the location is 100meters wrong but says it is accurate to 1.7km
I wonder if I could create a method that would tell my phone to try to connect to all other networks but my own to obtain their cell id and after getting all available return to my own network, if it is a quick process then it may be worth looking into. I think unless anyone has a different idea I might investigate along this path.

my phone can switch gsm test mode by typing *#*#364#*#* in to the keypad
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
This needs to be enabled in the registry
Code:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\HTC\EngineerMode]
"BuildInEngineeringModeApp"=dword:00000001
"LaunchEngineerModeAppDialStr"="*#*#364#*#*"
could this be of use ??

wapvirus said:
my phone can switch gsm test mode by typing *#*#364#*#* in to the keypad
This needs to be enabled in the registry
Code:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\HTC\EngineerMode]
"BuildInEngineeringModeApp"=dword:00000001
"LaunchEngineerModeAppDialStr"="*#*#364#*#*"
could this be of use ??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure but it does look very interesting, seeing as it is an embedded htc app maybe there will be someway of obtaining multiple cell id through a similar hidden menu. also I noticed some other interesting fields like TA which I believe is used by operators to increase positioning. Thanks for showing me this.

badasschris said:
If anyone does know or can think of a way to improve accuracy when not using gps I would be very interested to hear from them.
*edit* Also does any one know the answer to this? how does google maps give an aproximation value e.g. you are here within XXmeters are there any examples of people being able to retrieve this data along with the central position?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can think of a few ways of improving accuracy by using just one cell tower information. First of all, you can be watching current cellID, and as soon as it switches, you can calculate location of old cellID and new one, and approximate the location based on that. Second option would be to also check for signal strength. The lower the strength, the further you are away from the tower.
You could also try to use WiFi as well for triangulation. There are huge databases of WiFi MAC addresses on the Internet (not sure if any of them are free, though), and by getting MAC address of the wireless router, you can get an approximate position of your receiver. To get MAC address, you don't have to connect to the network, it could be protected.
You can get central position of the tower by using undocumented Google API, or OpenCellID database. You can find an example of using Google API on codeproject (don't have an address right now, sorry).

hobbbbit said:
I can think of a few ways of improving accuracy by using just one cell tower information. First of all, you can be watching current cellID, and as soon as it switches, you can calculate location of old cellID and new one, and approximate the location based on that. Second option would be to also check for signal strength. The lower the strength, the further you are away from the tower.
You could also try to use WiFi as well for triangulation. There are huge databases of WiFi MAC addresses on the Internet (not sure if any of them are free, though), and by getting MAC address of the wireless router, you can get an approximate position of your receiver. To get MAC address, you don't have to connect to the network, it could be protected.
You can get central position of the tower by using undocumented Google API, or OpenCellID database. You can find an example of using Google API on codeproject (don't have an address right now, sorry).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi hobbbbit
I like the way you think, I came up with the first idea you had but realised it wasn't suitable for my project as I want to be able to obtain a location at any time but I may not be continually checking location. When I first saw people talking about wifi tracking I assumed they would only be able to get a very rough estimate based on the IP address looking into it more I see it should give an accuracy of at least 200m which is ideal for my purpose. The only real solution I can currently find is using skyhooks api
this article http://www.codeproject.com/KB/mobile/WiMoWifiPosition.aspx looks very helpful. I have noticed that google also seems to use wifi location in a few of its products but couldn't find any information of making use of their database.

Hi badasschris
I m a final year engineering student.As a final year project m working on location based services in GSM mobile phones. I m planning to use cell id and signal strength to obtain approximate location.Can you suggest me a way to improve the efficiency of the algorithm.

[Q] aGPS question

Hi
Does aGPS require you to have a cellular data connection in order for it to work? Or will it work with any internet connection (eg. using my laptop's connection through wifi)? I'm asking because I don't have a data plan (yet), and my phone has locked only _once_ since I bought it a month or so ago. I've tried switching to MS based in LbsTestmode, changing the supl server to supl-google-com and supl-nokia-com (can't post links yet).
The one time it did lock was when I was testing the GPS without an internet connection, and I entered a WiFi covered area and it suddenly locked (5-10m accuracy). It wasn't WiFi-based positioning because it was my laptop's WiFi hotspot. And I was using the default settings at that time (www-spirent-lcs-com, Standalone mode). Since then I've tried different combinations of settings but it hasn't ever locked.
Another question: What's the difference between MS based and MS assisted modes?
My phone is an I9000 Galaxy S.

ssj4Gogeta1 said:
Hi
Does aGPS require you to have a cellular data connection in order for it to work? Or will it work with any internet connection (eg. using my laptop's connection through wifi)? I'm asking because I don't have a data plan (yet), and my phone has locked only _once_ since I bought it a month or so ago. I've tried switching to MS based in LbsTestmode, changing the supl server to supl-google-com and supl-nokia-com (can't post links yet).
The one time it did lock was when I was testing the GPS without an internet connection, and I entered a WiFi covered area and it suddenly locked (5-10m accuracy). It wasn't WiFi-based positioning because it was my laptop's WiFi hotspot. And I was using the default settings at that time (www-spirent-lcs-com, Standalone mode). Since then I've tried different combinations of settings but it hasn't ever locked.
Another question: What's the difference between MS based and MS assisted modes?
My phone is an I9000 Galaxy S.
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Click to collapse
Correct me if i am wrong, but as i know aGPS doesn´t need any Data Connection to make the triangulation between the GSM Antennas. So no need for Internet Connection to use aGPS.

TMReuffurth said:
Correct me if i am wrong, but as i know aGPS doesn´t need any Data Connection to make the triangulation between the GSM Antennas. So no need for Internet Connection to use aGPS.
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Click to collapse
AFAIK aGPS is different from cellular triangulation. It refers to downloading satellite information from a server for a quicker fix.

ssj4Gogeta1 said:
AFAIK aGPS is different from cellular triangulation. It refers to downloading satellite information from a server for a quicker fix.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought it would make a triangulation between the next availabe antennas in range and get over a dedicated channel (not data channel as mentioned above) localisation informations. Because my Nokia N80 had aGPS but not real GPS and in the manual they said something about this triangulation.
But of course i know the download of the actual satelite coordenates from my Touch HD in Windows Mobile with a dedicated App. Just thougth it is something diferent.

TMReuffurth said:
I thought it would make a triangulation between the next availabe antennas in range and get over a dedicated channel (not data channel as mentioned above) localisation informations. Because my Nokia N80 had aGPS but not real GPS and in the manual they said something about this triangulation.
But of course i know the download of the actual satelite coordenates from my Touch HD in Windows Mobile with a dedicated App. Just thougth it is something diferent.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
aGPS is a technology that downloads satellite data from agps servers at realtime (that is the time you are using the GPS): WIKI article
I guess that the app you are refering to, the one you used on the HTC, is Quick GPS. This program doesn't download satellite postition data in realtime but once in a while. (I believe the data are vallid for 48h) With Quick GPS one can still enjoy the features of aGPS while one hasn't a data connection with a aGPS server.
The Galaxy S GPS (BCM4751) seems to have both, aGPS and a sort of Quick GPS. Only the last is called LTO by broadcom. (see: http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s443754 about BCM4571 specs and see here about LTO.

aGPS uses cell tower triangulation, and information from a server, in addition to satellite radio signals, to quickly assist in determining the coordinates of a phone's location. Since cell tower sites are precisely surveyed, they are a reliable source for locational data. A data connection is required. All modern cell phones, at least here in the United States, are required to have aGPS service for use in locating a phone by emergency responders. This is a part of the E911 and is required by FCC mandate. Data is used in tracking down the phone, but it happens behind the scenes and is paid for by fees charged to cellular users on their bills for E911 compliance.
On phones that allow the user to make use of the aGPS chip, there will generally be a setting that allows you to set for E911 use only, or for what is commonly referred to as "location based services." On my Android phones, there are actually two settings, both found in Location & Security Settings. One allows for location based upon use of wireless networks, and the other allowing a fix via GPS satellites. Even with any location based services turned off, emergency responders can still find the phone. The difference being that you cannot use it.
While it is technically possible for you to use your phone's aGPS without a data connection, your chances of getting a signal are sketchy, and your chances of getting a really accurate signal are, under most circumstances, slim to none. Much of the computational work in determining your location is done by the assistance server, and guess how that information moves to and from your phone? Yep, you guessed it, data!
GPS signals sent from satellites are simply radio signals, and your local pop music radio station probably sends its signals with more force. As they are radio signals, they have to contend with everything a radio signal has to deal with, and a large percentage of that is man-made. Signals confusingly bounce off of buildings, are weakened by passing through walls and foliage, or can even be absorbed in some cases by different materials.
Some aGPS chips cannot function as stand alone GPS, and will not work at all without a data connection.
Try this, turn off your cellular radio. Make sure that your WiFi is also off. Now, fire up Google Maps and ask it to start navigation. How did it work?

appelflap said:
I guess that the app you are refering to, the one you used on the HTC, is Quick GPS. This program doesn't download satellite postition data in realtime but once in a while. (I believe the data are vallid for 48h) With Quick GPS one can still enjoy the features of aGPS while one hasn't a data connection with a aGPS server.
.
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Click to collapse
Yeah, that i was talking about. Didn´t know this all I love this forum, you always learn more and more.

rasmith3530 said:
Try this, turn off your cellular radio. Make sure that your WiFi is also off. Now, fire up Google Maps and ask it to start navigation. How did it work?
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Click to collapse
Well, using Google Maps would not be a valid test, of course, since you need data connection to download the local map anyway. If you want to test whether data connection is requires by aGPS, you need to use an offline GPS application.

Thank you for your guys replies.
@rasmith3530: So can that data be downloaded over wifi? (My common sense says yes, just trying to confirm.) If it can, then aGPS isn't working for me at all. I see at max 2-3 satellites in LbsTestMode, without a lock on any of them.

No one said aGPS is working on SGS. They are broken and no fixes yet.

foxbat121 said:
No one said aGPS is working on SGS. They are broken and no fixes yet.
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Click to collapse
I think you're right. The fact that there are no ephemeris and almanac data recorded for satellites let me think that it may be the case that with a certain informed guess aGPS and the advertised LTO function doesn't work on none of the firmwares.

Other people seem to have locking/accuracy problems, they can at least see those satellites. Mine normally shows 0 or 1, so I thought maybe I'm doing something wrong.

ssj4Gogeta1 said:
Other people seem to have locking/accuracy problems, they can at least see those satellites. Mine normally shows 0 or 1, so I thought maybe I'm doing something wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In JM1-JG5, I had that issue (couldn't lock onto anything). Switching to JM5 fixed that..

GPS.....A-GPS SCAM?? The gps drama sequel....

****************************************************************
"EDIT" UPDATE (7 oct. 2010)
Well you dont need to go actually much further then this first post!
Things got out of context over here, furthermore I decided to give
my external gps receiver a break and run some more tests with
the internal one of my SGS.
And the results I got were much better than any
other phone I tested before. Except the ones with a build-in SirfstarIII chipset.
If you have Gps issues,Just move on to this thread:
2nd edit (20 Oct, 2010): That thread was removed without any warning or explanation so I posted the videos in another thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=8903056#post8903056
END EDIT
RCinFLA said:
Like to share my experience as cellphone chipset designer and my dealing with various parties involved with GPS in phones.
Many of the issues are caused by business interests involved and there are quite a few parties plying to control location based services revenue stream.
SUPL, secure user plane protocol AGPS was created by network operators interest in mine, with the objective of putting them in the controlling position when it comes to extracting revenue from location based applications on their network.
Control plane AGPS is a general system where network operator independent entities can create a assist server along with possible services offering. They can encrypt their access to allow only subcribed (paying) users to access their service. The network operators has little control over this scheme.
With SUPL, in most cases, network operators outsource the location server function. Network operator hold location of their cell tower, as a total database, in close confidence. The network tower locations are also very dynamic over time. I believe the AGPS contractors don't get reliable and timely updates from the network operators.
Then there are third party business like 'Skyhook' which is trying to work around the network operator roadblocks by establishing a 'ponzi scheme' server database. If your phone has a good GPS location lock and detects a WiFi network, Skyhook's background app will have your phone send a message to their server reporting the SSID of the WiFi and its location. They then sell their server AGPS service to other companies, like Motorola, for inclusion in their phone software. Motorola may run into conflict with network operators. A network operator might refuse to buy a Motorola phone model with Skyhook installed on it. I noticed from the Captivate forum that the ATT version of Galaxy S has Skyhook capability.
Google is the 900 pound gorilla and is trying to wrestle control of location based services from network operators.
Finally there are the GPS chip manufacturers. Almost all of them have an AGPS server scheme of their own and try to promote it. The frontend processing (up to recovery of raw 50 bps satellite data) has unique hardware and firmware that are considered proprietary by the GPS chip manufacturer. In most cases a phone manufacturers like Samsung or Motorola are not allowed to have the software source code for this firmware or information on the actual interface protocol to the GPS chip. They are given a bundled binary file that the phone manufacturer software just dumps to the GPS chip at startup.
It is now up to the phone manufacturer to implement the GPS chip and antenna systems (along with WiFI, Bluetooth, Near Field Comm, and multi-band cellular) and provide software interfaces and drivers necessary to run the GPS function.
For size and cost reasons most recent GPS chips rely on the main application processor within the phone to actually do the GPS fix calculations. The software for this is provided by the GPS chip supplier but it must be coordinated with the particular applications processor chip used by the phone. It must share processing time slicing with the apps processor and work with operating system software resources such as RAM and ROM management running on the phone.
This is the first obsticle as most of the GPS chip suppliers have little expertise in the OS's that may be used (like Android or Symbian). The phone manufacturer usually has to provide help to create and debug the GPS driver software but the drivers are responsible/owned by the GPS chip supplier. There can be unique hardware/software interfaces that must be dealt with, like providing GPS TCXO calibration and cellular corrected frequency timebase to the GPS chip.
Then there is the OS's GPS interface. There can be translation software layers involved here. One such interface is based on GPS NMEA protocol but with additional hooks for things unique to phone operation like battery saver power strobing, and the complicated Secure User Plane or Control plane interface.
The AGPS system design landscape is litered with intellectual properties (patents) by many parties. Qualcomm is a dominate player here since their aquistion of SnapTrak company years ago. Royalties are paid to Qualcomm for every WCDMA phone sold, not only in AGPS area, but on basic CDMA patents used in a UMTS (Wideband CDMA) phones.
Now as to Samsung Galaxy S implementation of Broadcom GPS.
I think there is a lot of evidence that Samsung had early issues with the GPS antenna contact hardware. This has probably been corrected on recently manufactured phones.
I think the firmware supplied by Broadcom has the bandwidth of the correlators tighted down to provide greater sensitivity. This is great as long as there is a very good AGPS system to provide initial satellite ephemeris data. Without a good AGPS network providing satellite information the initial search and lock can take a very long time with narrow bandwidth frequency bins.
I have not seen evidence with my experience that my two Vibrants are receiving any reliable AGPS information from the T-Mobile network. They do seem to get rough Almanac satellite info from Google or other third party apps. These may be based on WiFi detection more then T-Mobile cell tower locations.
In LBStest I noticed that GPS Operational Mode has been set to 'Standalone'. I interpret this to mean AGPS is deactived. I don't see any difference when I switch to MS based assist, and clear the GPS saved memory to prevent it from prejudicing time to first fix lock test. Switching SUPL server to supl.google.com and port 7276 (with MS based operational setting) just seems to make my phone lockup for short periods of time.
Once phone does get full lock on satellites its performance is quite good. (my two Vibrant's were purchased in early Feb 2011). It rivals my Garmin SiRFstar III based GPS unit in locked on sensitivity while inside a building.
I think the AGPS system issues will get worked out over time.
The Qualcomm based CDMA2000 systems (like Verizon) will likely have better initial coordination on AGPS system operation. CDMA2000 also provides network timebase directly compatible with GPS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
*******************************************************************
All this nagging about GPS.....that it is not working in many devices and it's working in other many.....and of course I am talking about those ones who still would go for ONLINE gps navigation.....
In my humble opinion, what you guys should be asking yourselfs and the big corporations is, why nowadays, 99% of the smartphones(so not just sgs), even the most expensive ones are build with weak, less capable internal gps receivers, forcing users to go online(celular network /a-gps) or using external bluetooth gps receivers to get stable satellite fixes that means stable navigation.
Years ago, many of the first smartphones came with sirfstar chipsets or alike , so once again, why not now? That's the question that should not be ignored or forgotten.
A friend of mine, that would not dare to pay more than a 100 box for a phone, bought an ancient ETEN device on a sale for 40 box with that old windows mobile 5 and guess what...the internal gps get fast fixes just like any standalone gps device because it got the same sirfstarIII chipset
Why the heck, the expensive so called high-end smartphones of today are not build with better gps chipsets? Why A-gps? So we are forced to get data accounts?
And what happens when I want to navigate abroad? Roaming?
For data transfer and internet I use wifi; I have it at home and I find hotspots everywhere...I will save those extra 120 euros(or more) per year (data account costs)
And nobody will force me to get one(internet/data account); not even for gps navigation that I so much use..
I use gps navigation only offline, using a external bluetooth device on a daily basis and, many times abroad; it works like a charm on my SGS; and I am talking about serious GPS car navigation software like iGo, Sygic, Navigon etc. .
Don't even use Google maps or alike.
I cannot tell you how my sgs is doing on online navigation, I dont have a data account so I wont even try it.
But once Samsung get this online gps navigation thing fixed, you guys should concentrate your energy on the real issue:
The A-gps scam
And for all the corporations out there: Just deliver a device with a capable gps chipset and you will sell millions..
And for all the users out there: Just get a good compact external bluetooth gps receiver and stop nagging....
Thanks to 3rd party developers, the Android OS on my SGS can be "fooled" and I can connect any navigation software to my bluetooth gps receiver threw programs like Bluetooth Gps Mouse Unlimited and Gps Provider.
I do have to " allow mock locations" at settings first...
« »

¿Ein? You don need data to get GPS fix, A-GPS is only an aid to get faster fixes
I thtink you're a littel misinformed

LOL.. o boy.. the AGPS is to help say if your indoors so you can get a faster lock... the phone will work without it.

Ummm I can see why you would think what you think, but I do believe you are wrong.
Firstly: as far as I'm aware, the SGS has the same GPS chip as the latest TomTom standalone unit.
Secondly: I guess AGPS is a data feature, it uses the triangulation of cell towers and pulls information to assist a sat lock, but it is not really a different way of using GPS. Ultimately you still need to get a sat lock to use a GPS App.
So it may speed up this lock, but it won't replace it. It just means it'll take you a little longer to get a sat lock than without it.
So you have the choice use it or don;t use it, no-one is forcing you to use data.
Logicalstep

Oletros said:
¿Ein? You don need data to get GPS fix, A-GPS is only an aid to get faster fixes
I thtink you're a littel misinformed
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Click to collapse
Lol those online translators dont work that smoothly...
I don't need a data/internet account to use celular networks aid, that means a-gps.That mean going online via 3g or 2g...
But IF I don.t have a data/internet account added to my phone subscription, my phone costs will be much higher depending on my use....
You are missing the point anyway...

betoNL said:
Lol those online translators dont work that smoothly...
I don't need a data/internet account to use celular networks aid, that means a-gps.That mean going online via 3g or 2g...
But IF I don.t have a data/internet account added to my phone subscription, my phone costs will be much higher depending on my use....
You are missing the point anyway...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you're missing the point, you don't need any kind of data connection to use GPS, you can use it offline

Exactly...already the first line of Wikipedia says it: "Assisted GPS, generally abbreviated as A-GPS, is a system which can improve the startup performance of a GPS satellite-based positioning system."
There is, however, a related issue w/r/t A-GPS and a data account. Back on WinMo, I could download the ephemeris data to speed up the GPS fix for one week in advance (I think it was called QuickGPS or something on my HTC TouchHD, also had sth. like it on an old Eten). This allowed you to get a quick fix for said week, even without a data connection. Android, on the other hand, seems to download this data on the fly - meaning that if you don't have a data account you will experience a slow fix until your almanac has been filled "naturally" by the satellites you're seeing. I experienced that while on vacation this year without a roaming data contract - it took me a good 3-5 minutes to get the first fix and it was good from there on (well, as good as the SGS GPS gets ). I'd love to have some tool that does exactly what QuickGPS did, but I am not aware of anything like it.

TriC_101 said:
LOL.. o boy.. the AGPS is to help say if your indoors so you can get a faster lock... the phone will work without it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have always smile in my face when someone thinks he can get a lock indoors..
Yes in a cartoon box you can. Not in real building I'm afraid.
And for all those who think SGS's GPS is usable without A.
Try it.
You will see.
Dont post things you just caught on wikipedia.

xan said:
I have always smile in my face when someone thinks he can get a lock indoors..
Yes in a cartoon box you can. Not in real building I'm afraid.
And for all those who think SGS's GPS is usable without A.
Try it.
You will see.
Dont post things you just caught on wikipedia.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can get a lock on 6-7 Sat no problem inside.... and so can lots of others.. don't know what your doing wrong but its not hard to get a lock inside.

Pics or it didnt happen

seems you all are little misinformed as to how the gps on android specifically sgs works. It is actually three systems at work here. Gps standalone without gprs and cell triangulation which gets lock within a minute same as standalone bluetooth units (they also take up to a minute from cold boot but because generally it is plugged in the car lighter and always on people think its blazing fast).then you have agps that downloads preloads data regarding satellite location in regards to your position via network instead of downloading same data directly from satellite thereby saving time. Both these can be used without checking network location in settings so to recap if your network location is unchecked you are still using agps as long as you have network connection (data connection that is).and samsungs system for agps being better than others cause it downloads data for while week as opposed to others downloading data everyone gps is turned on. Third level is network triangulation via cell towers that gets you that instant lock at the cost of accuracy useful mainly to let apps get your general location without having to engage real gps thereby saving power as well as give maps a chance to start calculating route while gps is still getting lock therefore appearing to operate faster.

Idan73 said:
Gps standalone without gprs and cell triangulation which gets lock within a minute same as standalone bluetooth units (they also take up to a minute from cold boot but because generally it is plugged in the car lighter and always on people think its blazing fast)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Standalone gps's got their batterys, and thus they start "warm".
Thing is, standalone SRIF3/4 gps gets a warm lock without any AGPS nor network triangulation within 5-10 seconds. SGS (and bunch of top-of-the pack devices) cant come even close to that.

the GPS on the SGS works fine offline
i don't even have data on when going on long road trips
you just need an offline GPS software with maps, like CoPilot or some other one you like

xan said:
Standalone gps's got their batterys, and thus they start "warm".
Thing is, standalone SRIF3/4 gps gets a warm lock without any AGPS nor network triangulation within 5-10 seconds. SGS (and bunch of top-of-the pack devices) cant come even close to that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure they do. Sgs warm lock is 5 to 10 seconds as well. To test get the lock first then turn of data and network lock then start gps.restart of the phone same as restart of the standalone counts as a cold boot and takes about minute.

xan said:
Pics or it didnt happen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here ya go.... I don't have to prove anything just look on youtube.. This is the phone on for just 10sec.. if I had waited it would get down to about 10 feet... this pic was taken in a room where I get the lowest signal. and I live in a Condo with 2 foot concrete walls.. I don't have a digital camera.. this was taken with my old Samsung dumb phone.. but it does prove you can get a lock inside no problem.. also if i'm in a house I can get 6-7 sats to lock in the condo 5 at the most in that room.

only 3 sats and maybe the walls are thin

Polarfuchs said:
only 3 sats and maybe the walls are thin
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL Trust me the walls and not thin.. i'm on the 10th floor of a 25 floor Condo complex. I get alot more signal is a house.. Now my X10 can get about 7 Sats locked in the same room. and down to 5 feet. but the point was you can get a lock inside..

I'll try it.
I live in a 3 stories house at ground floor. The shutters are down and I'm 1 meter away from the windows.
After 3 Minutes I get 5 sats in view but none used.
I'll hang on.

Even after 10 Minutes I only have 5 satellites in View and zero in Use.
So no fix for me.
The numbers on top of the bars are from 15 to 25.

Logicalstep said:
Ummm I can see why you would think what you think, but I do believe you are wrong.
Firstly: as far as I'm aware, the SGS has the same GPS chip as the latest TomTom standalone unit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most of Tomtom devices got a SiRFstarIII™ GPS chipset
If the GS got such one the amount of GPS threads in this Forum would be reduced considerably
What is your awareness based on?
Oletros said:
No, you're missing the point, you don't need any kind of data connection to use GPS, you can use it offline
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Idan73 said:
seems you all are little misinformed as to how the gps on android specifically sgs works. It is actually three systems at work here. Gps standalone without gprs and cell triangulation which gets lock within a minute same as standalone bluetooth units (they also take up to a minute from cold boot but because generally it is plugged in the car lighter and always on people think its blazing fast).then you have agps that downloads preloads data regarding satellite location in regards to your position via network instead of downloading same data directly from satellite thereby saving time. Both these can be used without checking network location in settings so to recap if your network location is unchecked you are still using agps as long as you have network connection (data connection that is).and samsungs system for agps being better than others cause it downloads data for while week as opposed to others downloading data everyone gps is turned on. Third level is network triangulation via cell towers that gets you that instant lock at the cost of accuracy useful mainly to let apps get your general location without having to engage real gps thereby saving power as well as give maps a chance to start calculating route while gps is still getting lock therefore appearing to operate faster.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL... Lets put things in perspective :
1) Wich car navigation software do you use
2) when you UNcheck wireless networks =a-gps(in location and security) and you CHECk "use GPS satellites = build-in gps receiver and then you go outside, you start your car navigation software in you gs( taking into consideration that you have the righ map installed) how long does it take to get a fix so you can start driving?
3) Do you know the difference between a cold and warm start? Why the heck some of you mention car lighters????
Please just answer me these 3 questions and meanwhile I will post some educative information