Database Users

doubts about gpsOne chipset

Hi
I have read about htc p3600 gpsOne chipset but I don't understand if it's a stand-alone or assisted gps......What's the difference??? Is assisted gps an implementation of a gps or is it less accurate than a classic stand-alone one???
Thanks for all suggestions you can give me !!!!
Sorry.... for me it's the first time with gps......

murdock75 said:
Hi
I have read about htc p3600 gpsOne chipset but I don't understand if it's a stand-alone or assisted gps......What's the difference??? Is assisted gps an implementation of a gps or is it less accurate than a classic stand-alone one???
Thanks for all suggestions you can give me !!!!
Sorry.... for me it's the first time with gps......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stand alone gps is about positioning by satellites.
Assisted gps means that (IF network operator supports it) your device will triangulate you by the cell of the operator in which you are.
No worries, Trinity has them both, gps in this device works flawless.

thanks
Thanks a lot for your rapid and perfect summary......

Actually, assisted GPS has nothing to do with operator support.
See here for more details.

inkanyamba said:
Actually, assisted GPS has nothing to do with operator support.
See here for more details.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, it has everything to do with operator support.
A-GPS is a network service. When using A-GPS, your mobile device receives useful satellite information from an assistance data server over the cellular network, which your operator might have or might not have.
A-GPS uses 3G and 2G cellular network connection and GPRS AND EGPRS packet data connection. You must also have an internet access point defined in your compatible mobile device.
So, bottom line, A-GPS is a network dependant feature that requires a data plan.
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"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
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Also: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=1136451&postcount=19
Do some research!
Cheers!

I reckon that I was a lil' bit terse in my previous post.
So, let's detail:
A-GPS depends on an assistance server, that is true. However, the server is completely independent and unrelated of and to the network operator. See below for more.
A-GPS requires packet data connectivity, that is true. However, it does not require any special properties on that connection. In other words, if you have internet connectivity on your device, that should suffice.
The operator can or cannot offer internet services, that is true. In that view, you might say that A-GPS is dependent of the network operator. However, the data plan is sufficient to have A-GPS working, there are no special restrictions on that.
Fact: I have a Nokia N95, which has A-GPS. My operator does not, in any way, advertise and or offer A-GPS service(s). However, simply having internet access on my device (and it being capable of A-GPS) is sufficient to get A-GPS working. The assistance server is, in this case, provided by Nokia, completely unrelated to my operator or its services. If you read Nokia's documents on getting A-GPS working, you'll find that it says exactly what I'm saying: A-GPS is not a network / operator service, the single requirement is to have internet connectivity on your device.
Hope I made things clearer this time.

inkanyamba said:
I reckon that I was a lil' bit terse in my previous post.
So, let's detail:
A-GPS depends on an assistance server, that is true. However, the server is completely independent and unrelated of and to the network operator. See below for more.
A-GPS requires packet data connectivity, that is true. However, it does not require any special properties on that connection. In other words, if you have internet connectivity on your device, that should suffice.
The operator can or cannot offer internet services, that is true. In that view, you might say that A-GPS is dependent of the network operator. However, the data plan is sufficient to have A-GPS working, there are no special restrictions on that.
Fact: I have a Nokia N95, which has A-GPS. My operator does not, in any way, advertise and or offer A-GPS service(s). However, simply having internet access on my device (and it being capable of A-GPS) is sufficient to get A-GPS working. The assistance server is, in this case, provided by Nokia, completely unrelated to my operator or its services. If you read Nokia's documents on getting A-GPS working, you'll find that it says exactly what I'm saying: A-GPS is not a network / operator service, the single requirement is to have internet connectivity on your device.
Hope I made things clearer this time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...and the assisted server, which is not of your carrier's (so operator does not support A-GPS) must have it's cell tower data topography from somewhere. In this case operators might choose to or not to support this.
Let's see what others think about this.
Rest my case!

Assisted GPS is not uniquely dependent on cell tower topography. It can, for instance, help the GPS chip receive ephemerisis and or almanac data much quicker than it would do from the GPS satellites. Also, it can lessen the load on the CPU / GPS combo by offloading some intensive calculations to the assistance server. More so, the assistance server can have detailed knowledge of ionospheric conditions and GPS satellites' orbits so it can correlate fragmentary GPS data from the device's chip with that, in that it could quicker acquire a lock.
What I'm trying to say is that your only argument (so far) that A-GPS require cell tower topograhy (which, in some way, is dependent on the network operator) doesn't hold. Think about it this way: a device employing A-GPS (and keep in mind that A-GPS is not absolutely required for a lock) gets a fix, without using A-GPS. By the nature of the GSM network, it has access to its cell tower(s) ID(s). It then sends the cell tower ID and its position to the assistance server. In this way, the assisstance server can, in time, build a pretty reliable topography of the network.
So, no, it is not a network operator dependent service.

inkanyamba said:
Assisted GPS is not uniquely dependent on cell tower topography. It can, for instance, help the GPS chip receive ephemerisis and or almanac data much quicker than it would do from the GPS satellites. Also, it can lessen the load on the CPU / GPS combo by offloading some intensive calculations to the assistance server. More so, the assistance server can have detailed knowledge of ionospheric conditions and GPS satellites' orbits so it can correlate fragmentary GPS data from the device's chip with that, in that it could quicker acquire a lock.
What I'm trying to say is that your only argument (so far) that A-GPS require cell tower topograhy (which, in some way, is dependent on the network operator) doesn't hold. Think about it this way: a device employing A-GPS (and keep in mind that A-GPS is not absolutely required for a lock) gets a fix, without using A-GPS. By the nature of the GSM network, it has access to its cell tower(s) ID(s). It then sends the cell tower ID and its position to the assistance server. In this way, the assisstance server can, in time, build a pretty reliable topography of the network.
So, no, it is not a network operator dependent service.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I said, let's see some other opinions too.

Sure, I never said I knew everything.
But I'm 99% sure that Nokia has no agreement with my operator regarding A-GPS (I have inside sources), still A-GPS is working in my setup and it's working pretty damn good.

Here's another one :
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=291474

Nice.
In regard to message #2: I sure am in Europe and I for sure have been using A-GPS for some time.

inkanyamba said:
Nice.
In regard to message #2: I sure am in Europe and I for sure have been using A-GPS for some time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not saying you don't. Nokia's software may be working, but it might have information from other sources, not SMLC. I am referring to other sources as maybe Cell Broadcast/Cell Info (as in Busola Vodafone) messages or operator code readings.
We can go like this forever, let's wait and see what others have to say about this.
Cheers!

inkanyamba said:
Sure, I never said I knew everything.
But I'm 99% sure that Nokia has no agreement with my operator regarding A-GPS (I have inside sources), still A-GPS is working in my setup and it's working pretty damn good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't know what's in nokia's marketing department - but technically, Nokia's "A-GPS" is not real "A-GPS". It's a "Quick GPS" implementation (in HTC's terms). But that said, it has the obvious advantage of operator independence.
Nokia's A-GPS servers distribute satellite data, as with HTC's Quick GPS servers, so that the slow GPS would supposedly get a very quick hot fix.

I see.
Well, I'll dig a lil' bit more on this subject.

inkanyamba said:
Sure, I never said I knew everything.
But I'm 99% sure that Nokia has no agreement with my operator regarding A-GPS (I have inside sources), still A-GPS is working in my setup and it's working pretty damn good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is happening _I THINK_ is that Nokia is in a way reverse-engineering A-GPS the same way Google does with Google Maps.
When you are in GPS coverage and use navigation your phone is capturing both GPS coordinates and your GSM/UMTS cell information, creating a match between the two and saving it somewhere on a Nokia server.
Next time another user (or yourself) turns on the navigation program the cell-id information is transmitted immediately to the Nokia server which returns the necessary GPS information to avoid a cold start.
Basically the operator is by-passed but a mapping of cell-ids and geographical information is built anyway.
Technically this is not A-GPS but it serves the same purpose.

anonimo said:
What is happening _I THINK_ is that Nokia is in a way reverse-engineering A-GPS the same way Google does with Google Maps.
When you are in GPS coverage and use navigation your phone is capturing both GPS coordinates and your GSM/UMTS cell information, creating a match between the two and saving it somewhere on a Nokia server.
Next time another user (or yourself) turns on the navigation program the cell-id information is transmitted immediately to the Nokia server which returns the necessary GPS information to avoid a cold start.
Basically the operator is by-passed but a mapping of cell-ids and geographical information is built anyway.
Technically this is not A-GPS but it serves the same purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't own a Nokia, but I only heard people saying the fix is much faster using Nokia's "A-GPS". If it's really triangulate on CellID, then the fix would have great deal of error like few miles off the actual location. You may want to listen to what others said about using gmap with CellID only.
And even if it uses CellID, Nokia users have to contribute to such CellID data in the first place. So at least the early adopters would experience "slow" gps fixes - because no prior data was available. Apparently, they fixes were fast.
I would still say that this is a Quick GPS implementation using external satellite data from Nokia server.

Main issue!
So, Guys, the main issue: is A-GPS a network service or is it network independent?

ww2250 said:
I don't own a Nokia, but I only heard people saying the fix is much faster using Nokia's "A-GPS". If it's really triangulate on CellID, then the fix would have great deal of error like few miles off the actual location. You may want to listen to what others said about using gmap with CellID only.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I said is that CellID is only used to avoid a cold start. I know that positioning based only on CellID would not be very accurate.
However mine was only a speculation. I have no idea of how Nokia has actually implemented this QuickGPS thing.

Sorry to drag this a bit off topic but the thread seems to have the attention of some experts!
I am running a trinity with wm6 al3x 3.1.2 and 1.50.08.11 radio.
When I use gps software will it automatically use assisted GPS to reduce TTF?
Apologies again for the hijack!

Finally an Update for BELL htc touch GPS/WM6.1

check htc's website for the update...
everything works great....google maps, tomtom....sats catch in seconds....awesome
lol....bell late as usual

amad99
I tried to download, link states 3.08.666.1
The downloaded file seems to be 1.19.666.1 (same as what is on my ROM)
What File did you get?

http://www.htc.com/us/FAQ_Detail.aspx?p_id=70&act=sd
go almost to the bottom and click the link for
Download HTC Touch (Bell) Update - Version 3.08.666.1
its under the gray box thats says
WARNING: During the upgrade process, do not attempt to make/receive calls, press any buttons on your device or disconnect the device from the USB cable as this will stop the update and your device will be rendered inoperable! Please be aware that your device may reset up to 4 times after the provisioning as your device updates.

This radio kicks ass. After I flashed it, I flashed NFSFan's ROM, works like a charm.

Does this work better than any of the other rom updates that we already have?

this rom works amazing and the gps locks in under 10 secs for me where it used to take like 8 mins

Bell wants to charges us for GPS
Not suprisingly, Bell wants to charges us for using the GPS functionnality of our "Plenty features that you better not use because we are wating to charge you all kinds of fees PDA phones"
My bill went higher than 400$ in 3 minutes by using the WModem, fortunately they credit me because it was the first time, and they told me to never use this pretty usefull feature again.
The new Bell rom Laucher has new icon, GPS NAV wich bring to this:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Is anyone of you was charged for using the GPS?
If I use AstroGPSLauncher, will Bell know that I am using GPS and charge me crazy money?
Thanks in advance

I'm using AstroGPSLauncher but I cant' get a valid GPS signal. It might be because Bell is charging everyone for the GPS use...
Will a custom ROM defeat this stupid, stupid fee?

it doesn't cost to use gps.....that new program is by bell which is supposed to be like 3d navigation such as tomtom....
for example....if u use google maps with gps...you shouldn't get charged...

I still can't get any signal. It waits for a valid signal forever.

link2009 said:
I still can't get any signal. It waits for a valid signal forever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These steps should work with googlemaps
1 - Go outside
2 - Start Google Maps
3 - Open menu -> Hit the use GPS
4 - Open menu again -> Hit My Location
It sould lock in les than 10 seconds

Aha, okay, I'll try that.
How about TomTom?
EDIT: I unfortunately do not have a data plan thus Google Maps will not work for me. But I did try your suggestion and when I hit 'My Location' it said My Location (Beta) is not supported on this handheld.

link2009 said:
... when I hit 'My Location' it said My Location (Beta) is not supported on this handheld.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also get this message, However it still finds my location very accurately ... as you said, you need data connection to get the maps from google.
I did not tried TomTom yet.

Well I hooked my phone to my comp to get the data but it still won't grab any satellites..
Seeking GPS satelleties (0) ...

HTCGlow said:
Not suprisingly, Bell wants to charges us for using the GPS functionnality of our "Plenty features that you better not use because we are wating to charge you all kinds of fees PDA phones"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I’m not trying to pick a fight here but it’s these kind of statements that make us look silly when we do have a legitimate beef with the wireless industry. Why do people get so upset when cellphone companies try to make money?!?!?!?!?
HTCGlow said:
My bill went higher than 400$ in 3 minutes by using the WModem, fortunately they credit me because it was the first time, and they told me to never use this pretty usefull feature again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am no fan of the wireless industry in North America (especially in Canada) but really… unlimited mobile browser isn’t the same as “unlimited high-speed internet everywhere on whatever device you can connect this thing to” for obvious reasons. It is precisely for these kinds of reasons the wireless industry has been so slow coming out with unlimited data plans on these devices. Why not buy a nice server from Dell and run a website out of my garage over my cellphone using my “unlimited” data plan?
All that being said, no you do not need to use the GPS app that Bell has bundled with the new ROM. You can use Google maps or any other GPS capable application. Personally I feel this is a very fair way for Bell to introduce this kind of a feature. Don’t try charging us to use something that is free (GPS) but bundle an app that adds value to the equation and if it’s really worth it people will use it and pay for it. What bugs us is when you try charging us for something without adding value to the equation. Ignore the Bell GPS app (unless you want to try it). You don’t need it for GPS functionality.

link2009 said:
Well I hooked my phone to my comp to get the data but it still won't grab any satellites.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you on Bell??? Get the unlimited data feature for $7/month. This package is quite simply the best value in the wireless industry.

This ROM from Bell is top-notch. Easily the BEST one I have seen. A few weeks ago I got tired of waiting for Bell and broke down and flashed the Sprint ROM and then tried various custom ROM’s. None of the custom ROM’s came anywhere CLOSE to locking as fast or as accurately as this ROM from Bell. They might be late but they have the best ROM for GPS.

Talking about complaining….
How come we all complain about stuff like charges for data but no one seems to complain about the oldest ripoff in the books – “long distance”. Really!?!? I mean get real. Long distance used to cost more because involved operators plugging lines into a patch panel. Why does it still cost more? Especially when I am calling a place that I could drive to in 20 minutes. Really?!?!?! Long distance charges are a joke.
Fortunately my local calling radius is substantially larger on my cell phone then my home phone.
Oh, and talking about land-lines, what’s with dialing 1 before the area code? Has anyone ever stopped to consider what a backwards throwback that is? In the era of 10-digit dialing its more then a little annoying to hang up and dial again just because you weren’t sure if it was long distance or not.
The Fish

So do we get charged for using the GPS?
And I also didn't know about the $7/month for unlimited data, I'll check into that.

link2009 said:
So do we get charged for using the GPS?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you do not. You will get charged if you use the GPSNav application that Bell has included in this ROM.
To use the GPS feature for free download an app that is able to take advantage of it (for example Google Maps).
link2009 said:
And I also didn't know about the $7/month for unlimited data, I'll check into that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The $7/month data package from Bell is what makes the Touch such a hot device. Only avalible on the Touch.

Obtaining more than one CELLID and signal strength?

Is this possible, I have been able to find some code here and there about obtaining the call id in windows mobile but nothing about getting multipul values. I found this line on wikipedia
"Interestingly, all the present GSM modem/mobiles (Telit, SIMCOM, HTC, Nokia etc) are coming with some extra feature to monitor the neighboring cells and its RSSI value. Theoretically you should get 1+6=7 cell information(1 home cell ID, 7 BCCH info+ 7 RSSI). If you can prepare the database of GPS location of the 7 cells, it is not impossible to locate your location with very high accuracy (<100 mtr)."
If I could do this then the application I am currently creating would become much more appealing.
any help is greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the bump just very interested if anyone has any experience in this?

I was looking into CellID information not too long ago, and as far as I understand, WinMo doesn't have any available APIs to get information for the other 6 towers... Most likely it has that information for the OS use only, but it doesn't look like there's any ways to pull it out of there....

Thanks for the reply I really appreciate it. Not being able to obtain that information is very annoying imagine having relatively accurate location without GPS. oh well maybe they will release this soon.

A Windows Mobile app for location tracking in a route without GPS and internet
Where am I (Wami) is a Windows Mobile application suite that tells you where you are in the middle of a trip, without GPS and without connecting to the internet, using cell broadcast and cell tower information and a pre-recorded route file instead. It works by recording cell broadcast and tower information along a route into a route file and then using the current cell broadcast/tower information to index into the route file and find out the relative location within the route.
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/mobile/wami.aspx
VirtualGPS Lite 1.45 - is a free, small utility, which fully emulates GPS module and returns your location (by using cellular towers and wi-fi hotspots). Accuracy of coordinates is about 50-500m.
http://www.kamlex.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=30
This does work with TomTom emulating built in GPS on my htc prophet but not accurately

wapvirus said:
Where am I (Wami) is a Windows Mobile application suite that tells you where you are in the middle of a trip, without GPS and without connecting to the internet, using cell broadcast and cell tower information and a pre-recorded route file instead. It works by recording cell broadcast and tower information along a route into a route file and then using the current cell broadcast/tower information to index into the route file and find out the relative location within the route.
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/mobile/wami.aspx
VirtualGPS Lite 1.45 - is a free, small utility, which fully emulates GPS module and returns your location (by using cellular towers and wi-fi hotspots). Accuracy of coordinates is about 50-500m.
http://www.kamlex.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=30
This does work with TomTom emulating built in GPS on my htc prophet but not accurately
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks a lot for this information. annoyingly the first would not suit my project and the second sounds very interesting but there is no way to know how the developer gets their position from the cellId, they state that the accuracy is between 50-500m which if true is far superior to simply checking cell Id as i though that could be as far out as 3km .
If anyone does know or can think of a way to improve accuracy when not using gps I would be very interested to hear from them.
all the current technologies seem to need the participation of the network. I guess if you cannot access multiple cell Id's you wont be able to tell your phone to connect to a different cell tower. I wonder if there is any way of accessing the cell id of different operators cell towers, for example when you search for a gsm connection it will find all that are available, surely at this point your phone is querying all the towers.
in the software described it says that you can also estimate location based on ip's I thought they wouldnt be very accurate, also wouldn't you have to get a connection to work out the ip anyway and most wifi networks are password protected.
*edit* Also does any one know the answer to this? how does google maps give an aproximation value e.g. you are here within XXmeters are there any examples of people being able to retrieve this data along with the central position?

all the current technologies seem to need the participation of the network. I guess if you cannot access multiple cell Id's you wont be able to tell your phone to connect to a different cell tower. I wonder if there is any way of accessing the cell id of different operators cell towers, for example when you search for a gsm connection it will find all that are available, surely at this point your phone is querying all the towers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tested the virtual GPS the figures they quote are few and far between using cell id alone i would say a good 1/4 mile off they must use the same info as Google maps because my position was the same in goggle maps as in tomtom using virtual gps

wapvirus said:
Have you tested the virtual GPS the figures they quote are few and far between using cell id alone i would say a good 1/4 mile off they must use the same info as Google maps because my position was the same in goggle maps as in tomtom using virtual gps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No I didn't use the software because I have built in gps and didn't want it to change any settings. so your saying its likely cell id alone? I supose that he may be right saying that it is usually 50-500meters out that seems to be consistent with the values i have obtained from google maps although they do always give a much larger error margin then that. for example where I am right now I would say the location is 100meters wrong but says it is accurate to 1.7km
I wonder if I could create a method that would tell my phone to try to connect to all other networks but my own to obtain their cell id and after getting all available return to my own network, if it is a quick process then it may be worth looking into. I think unless anyone has a different idea I might investigate along this path.

my phone can switch gsm test mode by typing *#*#364#*#* in to the keypad
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
This needs to be enabled in the registry
Code:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\HTC\EngineerMode]
"BuildInEngineeringModeApp"=dword:00000001
"LaunchEngineerModeAppDialStr"="*#*#364#*#*"
could this be of use ??

wapvirus said:
my phone can switch gsm test mode by typing *#*#364#*#* in to the keypad
This needs to be enabled in the registry
Code:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\HTC\EngineerMode]
"BuildInEngineeringModeApp"=dword:00000001
"LaunchEngineerModeAppDialStr"="*#*#364#*#*"
could this be of use ??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure but it does look very interesting, seeing as it is an embedded htc app maybe there will be someway of obtaining multiple cell id through a similar hidden menu. also I noticed some other interesting fields like TA which I believe is used by operators to increase positioning. Thanks for showing me this.

badasschris said:
If anyone does know or can think of a way to improve accuracy when not using gps I would be very interested to hear from them.
*edit* Also does any one know the answer to this? how does google maps give an aproximation value e.g. you are here within XXmeters are there any examples of people being able to retrieve this data along with the central position?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can think of a few ways of improving accuracy by using just one cell tower information. First of all, you can be watching current cellID, and as soon as it switches, you can calculate location of old cellID and new one, and approximate the location based on that. Second option would be to also check for signal strength. The lower the strength, the further you are away from the tower.
You could also try to use WiFi as well for triangulation. There are huge databases of WiFi MAC addresses on the Internet (not sure if any of them are free, though), and by getting MAC address of the wireless router, you can get an approximate position of your receiver. To get MAC address, you don't have to connect to the network, it could be protected.
You can get central position of the tower by using undocumented Google API, or OpenCellID database. You can find an example of using Google API on codeproject (don't have an address right now, sorry).

hobbbbit said:
I can think of a few ways of improving accuracy by using just one cell tower information. First of all, you can be watching current cellID, and as soon as it switches, you can calculate location of old cellID and new one, and approximate the location based on that. Second option would be to also check for signal strength. The lower the strength, the further you are away from the tower.
You could also try to use WiFi as well for triangulation. There are huge databases of WiFi MAC addresses on the Internet (not sure if any of them are free, though), and by getting MAC address of the wireless router, you can get an approximate position of your receiver. To get MAC address, you don't have to connect to the network, it could be protected.
You can get central position of the tower by using undocumented Google API, or OpenCellID database. You can find an example of using Google API on codeproject (don't have an address right now, sorry).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi hobbbbit
I like the way you think, I came up with the first idea you had but realised it wasn't suitable for my project as I want to be able to obtain a location at any time but I may not be continually checking location. When I first saw people talking about wifi tracking I assumed they would only be able to get a very rough estimate based on the IP address looking into it more I see it should give an accuracy of at least 200m which is ideal for my purpose. The only real solution I can currently find is using skyhooks api
this article http://www.codeproject.com/KB/mobile/WiMoWifiPosition.aspx looks very helpful. I have noticed that google also seems to use wifi location in a few of its products but couldn't find any information of making use of their database.

Hi badasschris
I m a final year engineering student.As a final year project m working on location based services in GSM mobile phones. I m planning to use cell id and signal strength to obtain approximate location.Can you suggest me a way to improve the efficiency of the algorithm.

Will garmin be availabe on Nexus One

Garmin and Asus have released several GarminFone with Garmin navigation software. I know it's not in 2.1.
Will there be garmin running on Nexus One(2.1 or 2.2)?
Thanks!

Why would you need that...

I agree, why would you need that if you can already download Google Maps from the market?
I have a Garmin Nuvi 265 T in my car and the software is almost identical to Google Maps Navigation.

lol. You can always tell when people have solid coverage all around them. For many of us no matter which carrier we are on we are often without coverage. That makes online mapping useless to us at those times, hence the need for having a solution that works without a data connection. There are also those who are running their phones on wifi without a data plan or those who are pay per kilobyte and would prefer not pull down the data required.

Garmin allows offline turn by turn right?
That's why someone would want garmin on their phones.

I dont believe that to be true.
If I have no satellite signal the Garmin barks right away.
You get a popup screen that says Poor Satellite Reception.
I've even seen it on a clear day without a cloud in the sky.

lnjryan said:
I dont believe that to be true.
If I have no satellite signal the Garmin barks right away.
You get a popup screen that says Poor Satellite Reception.
I've even seen it on a clear day without a cloud in the sky.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe the previous post was meaning "offline" as being not connected to the internet. The garmin units do not require an internet data connection but must be able to receive the GPS signal. When you are traveling outside your phone coverage area the data connection on your phone is worthless. Thus the need for a stand alone GPS unit.

Forgot to mention that Navigon is supposed to hit here shortly with their android navigation. I emailed them and they described the launch as "imminent". That one will reportedly come in two versions, a stand alone and a connected version.

btmec said:
I believe the previous post was meaning "offline" as being not connected to the internet. The garmin units do not require an internet data connection but must be able to receive the GPS signal. When you are traveling outside your phone coverage area the data connection on your phone is worthless. Thus the need for a stand alone GPS unit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so then again why would you want this on your nexus one...
and doesn't the nexus have a GPS receiver?

lnjryan said:
so then again why would you want this on your nexus one...
and doesn't the nexus have a GPS receiver?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Man, you are obviously in the dark about this thing, so why comment?
The guy is looking for an offline navigation app, one that has maps and routing abilities stored on the phone flash card. I need such a solution too and think it would be great to have a garmin app for android.
Unfortunately I am quite sure it will be non-profitable for garmin to release such, as it will be hacked in hours after the release.

lnjryan said:
so then again why would you want this on your nexus one...
and doesn't the nexus have a GPS receiver?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe I'll make it more clear...
People want to be able to navigate using GPS ONLY, not using EDGE/3G/HSDPA data.
There are already solutions for that, free and paid (cracked MotoNav adjusted for Nexus, CoPilot, Sygic, Waze etc), but naturally, people want better solutions, and some want Garmin - why not? Also, iGO is supposed to release the next Android version, which might be better than the one MotoNav is based on.
And yes, Nexus has a built-in GPS receiver. Too many don't understand the meaning of A-GPS, which is just a regular GPS, but the lock is acquired more quickly, using cellular triangulation to calculate approximate position and look for specific satellites available at that position, speeding the GPS lock time by a serious margin. Or using other algorithms for speeding up the GPS lock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS

so then again why would you want this on your nexus one...
and doesn't the nexus have a GPS receiver?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm going to spell it out as much as possible:
A Garmin system keeps all maps locally stored on the device, so the only signal needed is GPS (aka being outside). All route information is calculated on device, with no 3G/E needed.
The Google Maps system only stores what you have downloaded through 3G/E in its cache, so it needs a pretty constant 3G/E connection in order to download maps, navigation routes, etc, as well as the GPS to position. Not everywhere you go has a 3G/E connection, so Google Maps doesn't work everywhere.
Garmin only needs a GPS signal to navigate, Google Maps needs a GPS connection and a 3G/E connection.

NexuGsx said:
I'm going to spell it out as much as possible:
A Garmin system keeps all maps locally stored on the device, so the only signal needed is GPS (aka being outside). All route information is calculated on device, with no 3G/E needed.
The Google Maps system only stores what you have downloaded through 3G/E in its cache, so it needs a pretty constant 3G/E connection in order to download maps, navigation routes, etc, as well as the GPS to position. Not everywhere you go has a 3G/E connection, so Google Maps doesn't work everywhere.
Garmin only needs a GPS signal to navigate, Google Maps needs a GPS connection and a 3G/E connection.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
good clarification !
now, about the google maps cache; how much "look ahead" does it cache, if any ? I haven't experimented with turning off connectivity (cellular) on the phone while using the navigation app yet, so I'm curious.
if it were easily possible to cache ohhh, just the route, on a 1000 meter resolution for a long trip, wouldn't that work fairly well ?
I'm sure someone here is a garmin/gmaps/copilot guru, and can answer that. Hope I haven't changed the subject too much.

I would like to see some posters in this thread use Google Maps abroad, you know when you actually need navigation, when they are roaming. Say hello to a pretty hefty phone bill if you used Google Maps for your navigation needs.
More offline map solutions are needed on Android and hopefully they will come soon.

SBS_ said:
I would like to see some posters in this thread use Google Maps abroad, you know when you actually need navigation, when they are roaming. Say hello to a pretty hefty phone bill if you used Google Maps for your navigation needs.
More offline map solutions are needed on Android and hopefully they will come soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
totaly agree with you .... also in Bulgaria 1MB 3G/E traffic cost around 3EUR - so if i need to be navigated morning from home to my workplace it will cost me more then the fuel

Just to clarify, as I know, Google Navigation is just available in a few countries and it doesn't provide offline map and needs data connection to download map...
If your country doesn't have Google Navigation, or the expense of GPRS/EDGE/3G is expensive(for example, in xxx, it cost about 1.5$ for 1M), you will need Garmin or something else that provide offline map(doesn't need data connection), navigation.
Garmin is available in symbian and win mobile now. Hope Nexus One could have it soon...

tostefoo said:
totaly agree with you .... also in Bulgaria 1MB 3G/E traffic cost around 3EUR - so if i need to be navigated morning from home to my workplace it will cost me more then the fuel
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The expense of adding my google account and downloading 2.1 update1 is 18.5$ when Nexus one was started for the first time. Just 19M data, can you imagine?
Off course, it's not in U.S.

Jack_R1 said:
Maybe I'll make it more clear...
People want to be able to navigate using GPS ONLY, not using EDGE/3G/HSDPA data.
There are already solutions for that, free and paid (cracked MotoNav adjusted for Nexus, CoPilot, Sygic, Waze etc), but naturally, people want better solutions, and some want Garmin - why not? Also, iGO is supposed to release the next Android version, which might be better than the one MotoNav is based on.
And yes, Nexus has a built-in GPS receiver. Too many don't understand the meaning of A-GPS, which is just a regular GPS, but the lock is acquired more quickly, using cellular triangulation to calculate approximate position and look for specific satellites available at that position, speeding the GPS lock time by a serious margin. Or using other algorithms for speeding up the GPS lock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for explaining it to me... obviously I didn't understand the OP's question...

I caught this on LH a few weeks ago:
http://lifehacker.com/5508032/mapdroyd-downloads-free-maps-for-offline-navigation
MapDroyd Downloads Free Maps for Offline Navigation
http://lifehacker.com/5508032/mapdroyd-downloads-free-maps-for-offline-navigation
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Android: When you're traveling where a cellular connection is fairly certain, Google Maps' own Navigation tool is a total GPS replacement. For those without data plans, or heading into the wilds, MapDroyd makes for a nice offline map backup.
When you start the app, you'll want to hit the Menu button and head right to "Manage Maps," where you can then drill down from continents to countries, to states and provinces and districts, and check off the maps you'd like to have available offline. Sizes will vary, but assuming you've got a decent microSD card installed, 34 MB for New York state, for example, is hardly a burden. The map data comes from OpenStreetMap, which has some fairly reliable highway and main thoroughfare information.
Gas stations and major restaurants will show up on your maps, as will other landmarks, depending on how well covered your area is by the open-source mapping crowd. You don't get directions or automatic searches of nearby spots, but the app can locate you by GPS. If it can't fix your GPS position, you will, unfortunately, have to manually zoom in from the world view to your own little corner of the world, where you're trying desperately to get back on the highway.
MapDroyd is a free download for Android phones only.
MapDroyd [via Android and Me]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

krabman said:
Forgot to mention that Navigon is supposed to hit here shortly with their android navigation. I emailed them and they described the launch as "imminent". That one will reportedly come in two versions, a stand alone and a connected version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
android navigon is out for some time now. not NA version tough . don't understand what you mean by stand alone and connected version .

Searching for GPS

I bought my Tab from craigslist, brand new, never opened. I didn't want T-Mobile service because I can just tether my 3G through my EVO. Can anyone tell me if I need T-Mobile in order to use GPS? Every time I turn on my GPS and Google Navigation, it's always saying "Searching for GPS."

No, you don't need T-Mobile service to use GPS. It takes long time to lock to satellites if you don't have adequate level of GPS signal (cloud, inside building...)

This happened to me....
Instead of going into the Blue arrow, I started IN Google Maps, got directions for somewhere and then through the menu selected Navigate. It was weird, I almost returned my tab, no help from CSR. This seemed to "jumpstart" the process and now it works everytime.

no working
will mine is not working it keeps on checking navigation availability display and iam out side and not near any towers and the sky is clear

CyberGhos said:
No, you don't need T-Mobile service to use GPS. It takes long time to lock to satellites if you don't have adequate level of GPS signal (cloud, inside building...)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct me if I am wrong but the Tab does not have full sat GPS only A-GPS which triangulates using communication towers. Not only is this less accurate but if your out of phone signal range then your GPS does not work.
This is why I can't understand why there are car docks for the Tab and no mention of the restrictions. I for one spend time in National Parks and remote areas so the Tab as a GPS device is next to useless to me.

siejones said:
Correct me if I am wrong....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay,
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"lightbox_share": "Share",
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And no, I don't have a SIM in my device.

mjduke said:
Okay,
And no, I don't have a SIM in my device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like I said I hope I am wrong but you don't need a sim to get a signal.
I have seen GPS sat info as well but presumed it was being simulated via net.
When I first researched the tab I found many sites claiming the tab had no dedicated GPS chip but instead used 3g chips agps capabilities.
Unfortunately it seems there is no system info or sensor info apparently that will give you this info. At least not one I have found.
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App

The Samsung Galaxy Tab has a Broadcom BCM4751 standalone GPS receiver which has A-GPS (assisted GPS) capability so when a 3G connection is available it will download GPS assistance data over the high-speed cellular network decreasing the time for GPS location determination. The Broadcom BCM4751 is a very small single chip GPS receiver with a massively parallel, hardware correlator architecture to speed signal searches and very low average power consumption to suit mobile devices. It includes software optimized for cellular integration and personal navigation performance and includes sophisticated algorithms to mitigate multi-path errors.
It does have aGPS, but its to BOOST the performance of using the receiver chip alone. Helps keep it from dropping out easily.

mmathai77 said:
The Samsung Galaxy Tab has a Broadcom BCM4751 standalone GPS receiver which has A-GPS (assisted GPS) capability so when a 3G connection is available it will download GPS assistance data over the high-speed cellular network decreasing the time for GPS location determination. The Broadcom BCM4751 is a very small single chip GPS receiver with a massively parallel, hardware correlator architecture to speed signal searches and very low average power consumption to suit mobile devices. It includes software optimized for cellular integration and personal navigation performance and includes sophisticated algorithms to mitigate multi-path errors.
It does have aGPS, but its to BOOST the performance of using the receiver chip alone. Helps keep it from dropping out easily.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks very much for that.
I know a-gps in many devices work along aside a dedicated chip using tower triangulation to speed up real GPS acquisition but there also many devices that claim to be GPS with no dedicated chip and are a-gps only.
It seems at the time of my research the pre-release/preview versions of the tab did not have a dedicated GPS chip. Some previews/reviews were based on this version. Apparently after a few user discussions at a later date Samsung decided to add the Broadcom chip for the official release version. Problem is these initial reviews still exist.
Anyway that is great news to me
Hope the op managed to sort his issue out.
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App

Any help over here I still could not use the navigation system in my tab, the Google navigation gets stuck on searching for satellite, is there any tweek that I have to do
I'll highly appreciate any suggestion
regards
bobgaby
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App

bobgaby said:
Any help over here I still could not use the navigation system in my tab, the Google navigation gets stuck on searching for satellite, is there any tweek that I have to do
I'll highly appreciate any suggestion
regards
bobgaby
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried any GPS Apps from the market? It may not be getting a fix but is it seeing any satellites at all?
"GPS test" is free and will show you sat info.
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App

bobgaby said:
Any help over here I still could not use the navigation system in my tab, the Google navigation gets stuck on searching for satellite, is there any tweek that I have to do
I'll highly appreciate any suggestion
regards
bobgaby
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What Tab do you have Sprint? DId you buy it used? Maybe the person previously screwed up the firmware and used the *ALMOST STOCK Rom from these forums to recover most of the stock firmware. This screws with the modem.bin file and renders the GPS bricked.
Nothing you can do about it now but wait till someone figures out how to extract the modem.bin file properly, or a big update gets released.

Hi, I bought my Tab new from the open market not from any carier but I do have a data plan though from Etisalat a local carier over here in Dubai, could it be the carier is blocking the service, but then that does not make any since because I also not getting the sats on the wifi (i do have powerful wifi connection I could stand out side of my house and still have connection to my wifi)
thanks siejones for the tip i downloaded GPS test from the market and this is the results
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
but still cant use Google navigation, i could try using other navigation but in UAE i am not sure which works and which not

bobgaby said:
Hi, I bought my Tab new from the open market not from any carier but I do have a data plan though from Etisalat a local carier over here in Dubai, could it be the carier is blocking the service, but then that does not make any since because I also not getting the sats on the wifi (i do have powerful wifi connection I could stand out side of my house and still have connection to my wifi)
thanks siejones for the tip i downloaded GPS test from the market and this is the results
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App
but still cant use Google navigation, i could try using other navigation but in UAE i am not sure which works and which not
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So it's not hardware or firmware and you can get a fix so it must be google nav. it's self.
I can only think of the simple suggestion that you try uninstalling google maps using the app manager. Then try downloading and installing it from the market place.

Google navigation
hi guys
just a question, is there a deference between google maps and google navigation?
i am asking because i got two deferent widgets on my tab and thats how it was since the beginning i searched for google navigation in the market but could not find it but i got the latest google maps ver 5.0.0
Regards
Bobgaby

The gps of the tab does suck.
I use it daily for running and cycling.
I go outside, remove the tab from the leathercase, start trackerbooster, hold it in the air, and still have to wait several minutes for a gps-lock.
In the car its almost impossible to use gps without stopping and going outside first.
Thats because it sucks.

I use the GPS for various things including turn-by-turn. Sometimes it refuses to get a proper lock though. Usually in that case, powercycling the GPS chip results in a lock within about 15-30 seconds.

bobgaby said:
hi guys
just a question, is there a deference between google maps and google navigation?
i am asking because i got two deferent widgets on my tab and thats how it was since the beginning i searched for google navigation in the market but could not find it but i got the latest google maps ver 5.0.0
Regards
Bobgaby
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think they are two seperate programs as such with nav using api's from google maps but they both are installed under Google Maps app. Both are installed via the google maps market app.
Saying that....does google maps get a fix?

schmolch said:
The gps of the tab does suck.
I use it daily for running and cycling.
I go outside, remove the tab from the leathercase, start trackerbooster, hold it in the air, and still have to wait several minutes for a gps-lock.
In the car its almost impossible to use gps without stopping and going outside first.
Thats because it sucks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All my phone/PDA devices with GPS act this way including the GPS on my Touch HD2 and the older Touch HD.
I would only expect GPS dedicated devices that have better hardware or a GPS device that allows an antenna to be connected to perform much better.

siejones said:
All my phone/PDA devices with GPS act this way including the GPS on my Touch HD2 and the older Touch HD.
I would only expect GPS dedicated devices that have better hardware or a GPS device that allows an antenna to be connected to perform much better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Nexus One will get a GPS lock in a matter of seconds, if I hold my SGT right beside it, it can take close to a full minute before it gets a lock.
Even if they can both "see" the same number of satellites (via GPS Test), the SGT generally won't get a lock until it can see at least 7 of them, whereas the N1 seems happy with 4 or 5.
The GPS on the SGT is virtually useless, it's too slow to lock and too innaccurate when it does, which is a real pity as the Navigon GPS app that it comes with is much nicer than the Google Navigation app as the maps are stored locally and the directions are more precise.
Is this a hardware issue or a software issue? Surely the hardware in the N1 isn't any better?