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Hi!
The Apache comes with the "well known" Intel PXA270 CPU that runs on 416 MHz.
The Wizard has this "sloppy" TiOMAP CPU that runs on 200 MHz.
Why did they use this "sloooow" CPU on the GSM-version of the device?
Will there be an Apache for GSM? What platform will the upcoming vodafone VPA compact 2 be (I heard something of "HTC Prodigy"?!)
ARGH!
Who nows the "secret"?
Greetings
plant
Secret is Clock Speed DOESNT EQUAL actual speed.
The wizard will do more calculations per cycle (like AMD processors). It means roughly the same performance for less power and less battery consumption.
There are benchmarks somewhere that shows Wizard out performs the Magician.
BigDamHero said:
Secret is Clock Speed DOESNT EQUAL actual speed.
The wizard will do more calculations per cycle (like AMD processors). It means roughly the same performance for less power and less battery consumption.
There are benchmarks somewhere that shows Wizard out performs the Magician.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But I can only found benchmarks of Java on Wizard vs Magician, it seems that the benchmarks of Java not fully represent the speed or precessing power of a CPU.
Yeah you have to take into account that they are different types of CPU, so their speeds can't be directly related. I am very impressed by the Wizards speed. I find it often to be faster that my Magician.
The only area where I find the Magician was a fair bit better is video playback. I use TCPMP, and it has optimizations for Xscale, so the Magician beats it in that area.
BigDamHero said:
There are benchmarks somewhere that shows Wizard out performs the Magician.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then show me THIS benchmarks.
I only can give you a link where nearly *everything* outperforms the Wizard! It looks like a desaster performancewise...
http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/review/htc-wizard-en.shtml
Greetings
plant
Those benchmarks just don't match with my ACTUAL experience using the device. It is no way as slow as those benchmarks would have you believe. Mine is consistently as fast as or only slightly slower than my XDA Mini was, definately not as drastically slower as those benchmarks show.
It is definately not a disaster performancewise if you configure it properly, using progs that support WM5 and don't install the AV software.
Hi!
How fast runs Navigon Mobilenavigaor 5? It's quite ok on my Magician but I think the Wizard will make it even more sloppy. It's ok that it *feels* fast at OS use - but how fast *is it really* running software that actually needs high performance like MN5 or TomTom 5?
And one question remains: Why are they using the PXA270 in the US-Version of the Wizard (Sprint PPC-6700)?
Just my €0.02
Greetings
plant
The PPC-6700 is not a version of the Wizard, but a different device called Apache. It has a different design than the Wizard, including the Xscale processor, use of EVDO/CDMA instead of quadband GSM, different keyboard and an external antenna.
plantagoo said:
Hi!
How fast runs Navigon Mobilenavigaor 5? It's quite ok on my Magician but I think the Wizard will make it even more sloppy. It's ok that it *feels* fast at OS use - but how fast *is it really* running software that actually needs high performance like MN5 or TomTom 5?
And one question remains: Why are they using the PXA270 in the US-Version of the Wizard (Sprint PPC-6700)?
Just my €0.02
Greetings
plant
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The SBP Benchmark comparisions are meaningless as the Wizard uses a totally different CPU architecture (i.e. dual core) and file system to the others. It's real life experience that counts. TTN5 on mine takes slightly longer to load than the Magician (because of the non volatile memory), but once it's running I barely notice any difference. Sure, if you want high frame rate video for games, look elsewhere, but for day to day use as PDA / Phone / GPS / MP3 player it's every bit as good as the Magician - but with much better battery life, and no risk of you losing all your data if you forget to charge it!
Yes, the battery life is absolutely awesome on this device!!! It lasts much longer than my Magician did, and that including use of WiFi!
9100 is great, little big to carry around, but nice with w-lan and everything else. WM2005, didn´t like it in the beginning but now after 1 week I like it.. as all the other windows-based things u can do whatever u want
But now it´s confirmed, S200 is coming to sweden in the beginning of 2006. The size is like s100, s110 unbeatable......
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babe...obile-review.com/pda/review/htc-prophet.shtml
The problem with S200 is that it uses the same SLOW processor like K-JAM and it only drops the keyboard, adds WiFi 801.1g and a decent 2 MPixel camera. BUT IT IS SLOW! I will go for ETEN M600 with the 400MHz samsung processor instead of the awful 200MHz TI OMAP that S200 will have!
unless i am mistaken, there is no flash on the s200?
I think the point of the slower processor is to improve the functionality of the phone features ie talk time, mp3 time, etc. From other posts and reviews that I've read it doesnt seem to be a huge issue except for real power users. The biggest difference i see between the prophet and wizard is the keyboard and 2mp camera.
In mid 2006 there will be the hermes, a 3g version of the wizard with a 400mhz processor, perhaps worth waiting for!
Mogwai said:
I think the point of the slower processor is to improve the functionality of the phone features ie talk time, mp3 time, etc. From other posts and reviews that I've read it doesnt seem to be a huge issue except for real power users. The biggest difference i see between the prophet and wizard is the keyboard and 2mp camera.
In mid 2006 there will be the hermes, a 3g version of the wizard with a 400mhz processor, perhaps worth waiting for!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll be waiting for the next incarnation of the jam with a faster processor and 3g for Skype. Alternatively the O2 Atom is going to be released in Dec. with 400mhz processor, WiFi, edge, 2 mp camera, front firing stereo speakers and it is smaller than the jam. I think if I didn't already have the Jam I'd be getting the Atom...maybe I will get it anyway
thanx
no way. s100's processor is 412 Mhz, and 9100's processor is officially 195, but actually is 185. so, s100 is twice as fast as 9100 :!:
U have to remember that the 9100 is a dual core processor.
so?
Mhz does not usually mean faster. Take Intel and AMD for example. Even though Intel has higher clock speed, it is not faster than AMD.
Just to drive that point home, at work a client started an unofficial benchmarking of systems, and results include
- an AMD Athlon64 3000+ at 2GHz, single core, single CPU... let's say this machine's speed is '1'
- an Intel Core Duo T2400 at 1.83GHz, dual core, single CPU... it's almost 2.5 times as fast.
That said, the OMAP may be dual core, but it's not 'dual core' like desktop/notebook processors. The two cores each specialize in different parts. You might notice that, for example, it's easier to multitask on these chips - while video playback won't see any performance boost and is likely to be slower.
Depending on your needs, your mileage may vary.
Omap 850 go 195 Mhz because it's downgraded by HTC for safety reason (they reply me like that) Processor is only 200 Mhz but for radio is performed by another chip.... i have both and Wizard isn't speed as Magician.
I find Sony Ericsson P900 at 153mhz to be much faster and responsive than any XDA. Although that's probably more to do with Microsoft's sketchy OS than the processor.
I think the Wizard overclocked to 264mhz is much fater at moving around the OS than a BlueAngel at 400mhz, but like someone said above, it's not so good at video playback.
re
in this case, my CPU is set to - 264MHZ are there any problems
to stay on this MHZs /battery, cpu lifetime, errors and accidental
shut downs/ ?
To compare use benchmarks (TCPMP for example)
darkheroz said:
in this case, my CPU is set to - 264MHZ are there any problems
to stay on this MHZs /battery, cpu lifetime, errors and accidental
shut downs/ ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi most people find it more stable at 240Mhz omapclock speed (260Mhz true as measured by sktools) but if it is stable for you - thats cool.
Hey guys this old x-scale vs omap thing has been bashed out numerous times!! Please for our sanity no more!! :wink: Anyhow looks like x-scale is being dropped by intel.
Hi,
I have seen benchmarks on this site, but I dont know in what topic.
In summary, the wizard is almost twice as fast as the magician, and the xda executer is twice as fast as the wizard, I have seen those benchmarks but I dont have the link. Also my wizard proves day after day that it is not slow at all, any game or CPU intensive program runs smoothly just the way you like.
So, dont be misled by the frequency measure, it is unfair to compare two different architectures only with regard to clock speed only, even a small improvement in the cache technology, or the pipeline design could bring massive performance advantages to the system's processor performance.
Regards,
Mohammad
no, the wizard is slower than the magician. i have both so i know. one thing is the processor even though it is dual core (one for pda, one for phone). the other reason is the way the os manages memory, with wm5 using persistent storage rather than having things ready on ram. this is running both without overclock that is.
This is not neccesserly true, maybe wm2003 OS is much lighter than WM5, its like comparing two identical desktop computers one is running windows 95, the other is running windows2000 and claiming that the one that runs windows 95 is faster. From my point of view (as a computer engineer) Benchmarking is the only trustful way to tell.
Another thing is that dual coring the processor has removed the overhead of managing the phone hardware by the main core, and this is definitely an advantage!!!
Another plus for the OMAP processor is that it consumes less power, and we all know that the most important resource for handheld devices is power, afterall, if you want to compare the actual CPU speed you have to run benchmarks on both devices, regardless of how the magician seems to be faster.
So lets search for benchmarks and put what we get here.
-------------------------------------------------
Update:
I found the benchmarks, enjoy!!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=27512&highlight=benchmarks
i have my 9100 from today (used a s100 for one year.)
the 9100 reacts quicker to start,browsing...
only TT loading takes a few seconds longer
Hi Folks,
I need a new smartphone and I love the HTC devices.
I've been reading a lot of data charts lately and I'm really confused.
WHY IN THE WORLD did they cut magicians processor power in halfs when they built his successor charmer??
Magician has an Intel XScale Prozessor Bulverde with 416 MHz. That's about the power I'm looking for. But they downgraded Charmer to a Texas Instruments OMAP 850 Prozessor with ridiculously 206 MHz.
My old beloved Wallaby has almost more power!
Can anybody explain this decision?
I didn't find any benchmark tests of charmer on the internet. Magician's benchmarks are awesome for his size and high enough to play pocket quake or watch unconverted videos, but it seems nowbody is testing Charmer.
Any people here with a Charmer who want to run SPB benchmark (http://www.spbsoftwarehouse.com/products/benchmark/?en) for me and post the results? or just tell me how many fps unvonverted .avi movies give you.
THX!
Hey. The charmer has about 1000 SPB benchmark points, the Magician around 1600. That's a fact, also for the Wizard and the Prophet. A good alternative could be the Hermes which comes out soon and has the Samsung 400 MHz CPU.
There are Magician benchmark, which is approx 1,200 (I've got that from http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=54370&highlight=). ). As for the Charmer, it is way way way lower than that. See the chart
here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?p=313810#313810
The only thing Charmer is good at seems to be the graphics. But there is a benchmark on charmer regarding video playback, which is still not as good as the Magician, which I suspect because of the low bandwidth of the Charmer's file I/O.
Take a look here as well
http://www.modaco.com/Benchmark_results_of_MDA_Compact_II-t234674.html
Any idea why they sacrificed so much power?
the data charts don't really say something about great improvement in batery life due to the slower CPU, which appears to be the only logical reason to downgrade a CPU in a PDA.
why did they do that? the charmer seemed so promising perfect with WM 5, long batery life and small size....
is WM 5.0 less power hungery?
Most state that WM5 is slower. I suppose this is mainly due to the new memory layout of WM5.
Why did they include a slower CPU into the Charmer? Maybe due to the cheaper price and HTCs stupid management? If you want a faster WM5 device with phone edition, then look for the Eten M600 (very good benchmark results) or wait for the HTC Hermes which is soon to come and presumably will have better benchmark results as well.
The charmer is a rediculous device as the successor of the Magician.
Most state that WM5 is slower. I suppose this is mainly due to the new memory layout for WM5.
Why did they include a slower CPU into the Charmer? Maybe due to the cheaper price and a stupid management? If you want a faster WM5 device with phone edition, then look for the Eten M600 (very good benchmark results) or wait for the HTC Hermes which is soon to come and presumably will have better benchmark results as well.
Another probable reason for the lack in speed in Charmer probably due to the persistant flash memory (doesn't need battery to keep the data) which is usually slower than the non-persistant ones. Think of it as having SD as storage for the Charmer. Someone ought to do a test on Wizard and compare Charmer against Wizard.
I think they reduce the processor speed in order to increase the battery life... because most of the times, fast processor consumes battery life as well. we can see from iPAQ h6365 where it uses 168MHz processor. battery life was very good (apart from its 1800Mah battery, of course)
geoffrey23 said:
I think they reduce the processor speed in order to increase the battery life... because most of the times, fast processor consumes battery life as well. we can see from iPAQ h6365 where it uses 168MHz processor. battery life was very good (apart from its 1800Mah battery, of course)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
exactly
the charmer and the prophet are designed as fones with ppc capabilities.
ppc battery life is a day or less, the charmer et al several days.
all depends on what you want the device for really, sometimes the lack of speed frustrates me, but the ability to go days between charges doesnt
Any one knwos the battery life of the Magician? My Charmer last only like 3-4 days with average 1/2 hours of talk and some basic usage, 24 hours phone on - standby
MY MAGICIAN (o2 XDAII mini) can only last for maximum 2 days...
And it 's very unstable when battery is getting low ...
Thoughts: Slower CPU and higher capacity battery seems to be the only solution to extend the battery life.... I rather charge every day and have a faster device
Dandie said:
If you want a faster WM5 device with phone edition, then look for the Eten M600 (very good benchmark results) or wait for the HTC Hermes which is soon to come and presumably will have better benchmark results as well.
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Click to collapse
thanks for the tip with the eten m600. looks really nice.
do you know any company who sells them with contracts in germany? I have problems finding carriers outside england on google or ebay.
I guess hermes will take another month (or two).
moeph said:
thanks for the tip with the eten m600. looks really nice.
do you know any company who sells them with contracts in germany? I have problems finding carriers outside england on google or ebay.
I guess hermes will take another month (or two).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can get it for example here
Lets wait for the HTC Trinity
http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/01/htc-trinity-revealed/
Always waiting - I'm sick of it 8)
The Hermes has everything besides GPS that the Trinity will have. It doesn't feature normal SD cards as well, that may have been a reason for me to wait. Integrated GPS is useless in my opinion. The integrated reveivers have bad connection quality and all maps that you can get for navigation software are only working well for car navigation - my car has enough space for a Bluetooth GPS mouse. No need to wait if you ask me.
OK, but HTC Hermes is not HTC Magician form factor. It has a keyboard and is much heavier and thicker. It compares to the HTC Wizard.
The HTC Prophet I will skip, it is the same form factor as Magician, but has a slow CPU and no UMTS/HSDPA.
And to bring you up to date: in those new devices is an "A-GPS" which means "assisted GPS". This means, GPS data is supported by localization data from the mobile network. That results in a much quicker first satellite fix and equals out some disadvantages of these small GPS chips. However, if your mobile network provider does not support A-GPS, you have a weaker GPS reception than with state of the art GPS mouses.
esackbauer said:
OK, but HTC Hermes is not HTC Magician form factor. It has a keyboard and is much heavier and thicker. It compares to the HTC Wizard.
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Click to collapse
Mh, ok. I will see how much the difference is in my pocket. I think it weighs 30 grams more than the Magician and is about 5 mm thicker. I think I can live with that, especially because I'd like to have a keyboard and I don't want to wait anymore
esackbauer said:
And to bring you up to date: in those new devices is an "A-GPS" which means "assisted GPS". This means, GPS data is supported by localization data from the mobile network. That results in a much quicker first satellite fix and equals out some disadvantages of these small GPS chips. However, if your mobile network provider does not support A-GPS, you have a weaker GPS reception than with state of the art GPS mouses.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, you're right, assuming your provider supports A-GPS (additional costs?). But still there is the point with the standard navigation software which just isn't suited for navigation by foot or by bike. For the car, I can use a GPS mouse without any disadvantage (I already have one anyway). Personally, I don't see a good reason to wait for the Trinity.
omap 850 isn't slow!!! intel xscale is only 416 Mhz arm9 core while omap is an 195 mhz arm9 combined vith 67,5Mhz arm7 mcu(mcu speeds up the main core cause it controles ram instead of main core) so 195 mhz omap is aprox. or more 312 mhz of xscale, it also has 100 MHZ integer and floating point core and 2d accelator.....
So you say charmer is actually faster than magician? I'm having a dilema between these two, don't know which to buy? But would prefer faster...
of course no.
Why niki is slow?? This is my question... I have an older qtek 2020 and it's very faster than niki... why??
video drivers... install a rom with the s600 driver already on it, trust me, its wayyyy faster.
I recomend Mary v.02.
Yes I installed but it's not faster than a lot of other device uff.. It is very slow.,..
I can only compare it to my S110, its a little faster in certain things, but slower in games and emulation, not that much slower... just enought to be noticed.
yesterday I saw an iphone and it's very faster,..
Billokko said:
yesterday I saw an iphone and it's very faster,..
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Click to collapse
Diferent hardware and OS, you really cant compare...
Iphone's cpu is almost twice as fast as the dual's one
And it has proper hardware accaleration;p
ok but in comparison to others devices niki is very slow...
In that we agree... My S100 from 2003 is much faster than this, but because it was that old it had a lot of other problems, the battery was starting to fail, a side button was broken and couldnt be easily fixed, some newer programs werent wm2003 compatible, etc...
Its sad that most new phones are so below the old ones, and the few that are better are unreasonably expensive.
I can still buy a brand new S110 for about 100/150€ with 416mhz, 128 of ram and 128 of rom, and thanks to wm2003 i can have a wooping free ram of 90mb (depending if its the s100 or s110) and the video card works fine, so everything is smooth.
The design, sound and camera of the dual are obviously superior, plus it can have 3g internet, but it costs 4 times more than the S110.
Just sad...
soulcrusher said:
Iphone's cpu is almost twice as fast as the dual's one
And it has proper hardware accaleration;p
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Click to collapse
Almost twice as fast, you mean 600mHz versus 400mHz ....
The Niki has proper hardware acceleration, its just the muppets at HTC that haven't bothered to use it in any way, shape or form.
Tought iphone was about 750 mhz
Anyways, a Niki doesnt have drivers wich we all know, but compare ANY wm5 or wm6 mobile to a wm2003 or even older(!) device, and the older one outperforms the newer one. WM2003 devices use sdram, and newer ones mostly flash memory, wich is way slower (because a wm2003 device couldnt be turned of because of the ram memory that loses it's storage). So every program that writes or reads often from the memory is considerable slower on wm6 than on wm2003. But if you compare a wizard to a nike, the nike's way faster because of it's cpu.