Database Users

Why different CPUs in Wizard and Apache?

Hi!
The Apache comes with the "well known" Intel PXA270 CPU that runs on 416 MHz.
The Wizard has this "sloppy" TiOMAP CPU that runs on 200 MHz.
Why did they use this "sloooow" CPU on the GSM-version of the device?
Will there be an Apache for GSM? What platform will the upcoming vodafone VPA compact 2 be (I heard something of "HTC Prodigy"?!)
ARGH!
Who nows the "secret"?
Greetings
plant

Secret is Clock Speed DOESNT EQUAL actual speed.
The wizard will do more calculations per cycle (like AMD processors). It means roughly the same performance for less power and less battery consumption.
There are benchmarks somewhere that shows Wizard out performs the Magician.

BigDamHero said:
Secret is Clock Speed DOESNT EQUAL actual speed.
The wizard will do more calculations per cycle (like AMD processors). It means roughly the same performance for less power and less battery consumption.
There are benchmarks somewhere that shows Wizard out performs the Magician.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But I can only found benchmarks of Java on Wizard vs Magician, it seems that the benchmarks of Java not fully represent the speed or precessing power of a CPU.

Yeah you have to take into account that they are different types of CPU, so their speeds can't be directly related. I am very impressed by the Wizards speed. I find it often to be faster that my Magician.
The only area where I find the Magician was a fair bit better is video playback. I use TCPMP, and it has optimizations for Xscale, so the Magician beats it in that area.

BigDamHero said:
There are benchmarks somewhere that shows Wizard out performs the Magician.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then show me THIS benchmarks.
I only can give you a link where nearly *everything* outperforms the Wizard! It looks like a desaster performancewise...
http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/review/htc-wizard-en.shtml
Greetings
plant

Those benchmarks just don't match with my ACTUAL experience using the device. It is no way as slow as those benchmarks would have you believe. Mine is consistently as fast as or only slightly slower than my XDA Mini was, definately not as drastically slower as those benchmarks show.
It is definately not a disaster performancewise if you configure it properly, using progs that support WM5 and don't install the AV software.

Hi!
How fast runs Navigon Mobilenavigaor 5? It's quite ok on my Magician but I think the Wizard will make it even more sloppy. It's ok that it *feels* fast at OS use - but how fast *is it really* running software that actually needs high performance like MN5 or TomTom 5?
And one question remains: Why are they using the PXA270 in the US-Version of the Wizard (Sprint PPC-6700)?
Just my €0.02
Greetings
plant

The PPC-6700 is not a version of the Wizard, but a different device called Apache. It has a different design than the Wizard, including the Xscale processor, use of EVDO/CDMA instead of quadband GSM, different keyboard and an external antenna.

plantagoo said:
Hi!
How fast runs Navigon Mobilenavigaor 5? It's quite ok on my Magician but I think the Wizard will make it even more sloppy. It's ok that it *feels* fast at OS use - but how fast *is it really* running software that actually needs high performance like MN5 or TomTom 5?
And one question remains: Why are they using the PXA270 in the US-Version of the Wizard (Sprint PPC-6700)?
Just my €0.02
Greetings
plant
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The SBP Benchmark comparisions are meaningless as the Wizard uses a totally different CPU architecture (i.e. dual core) and file system to the others. It's real life experience that counts. TTN5 on mine takes slightly longer to load than the Magician (because of the non volatile memory), but once it's running I barely notice any difference. Sure, if you want high frame rate video for games, look elsewhere, but for day to day use as PDA / Phone / GPS / MP3 player it's every bit as good as the Magician - but with much better battery life, and no risk of you losing all your data if you forget to charge it!

Yes, the battery life is absolutely awesome on this device!!! It lasts much longer than my Magician did, and that including use of WiFi!

Qtek S200 - sweden

9100 is great, little big to carry around, but nice with w-lan and everything else. WM2005, didn´t like it in the beginning but now after 1 week I like it.. as all the other windows-based things u can do whatever u want
But now it´s confirmed, S200 is coming to sweden in the beginning of 2006. The size is like s100, s110 unbeatable......
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babe...obile-review.com/pda/review/htc-prophet.shtml

The problem with S200 is that it uses the same SLOW processor like K-JAM and it only drops the keyboard, adds WiFi 801.1g and a decent 2 MPixel camera. BUT IT IS SLOW! I will go for ETEN M600 with the 400MHz samsung processor instead of the awful 200MHz TI OMAP that S200 will have!

unless i am mistaken, there is no flash on the s200?

I think the point of the slower processor is to improve the functionality of the phone features ie talk time, mp3 time, etc. From other posts and reviews that I've read it doesnt seem to be a huge issue except for real power users. The biggest difference i see between the prophet and wizard is the keyboard and 2mp camera.
In mid 2006 there will be the hermes, a 3g version of the wizard with a 400mhz processor, perhaps worth waiting for!

Mogwai said:
I think the point of the slower processor is to improve the functionality of the phone features ie talk time, mp3 time, etc. From other posts and reviews that I've read it doesnt seem to be a huge issue except for real power users. The biggest difference i see between the prophet and wizard is the keyboard and 2mp camera.
In mid 2006 there will be the hermes, a 3g version of the wizard with a 400mhz processor, perhaps worth waiting for!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll be waiting for the next incarnation of the jam with a faster processor and 3g for Skype. Alternatively the O2 Atom is going to be released in Dec. with 400mhz processor, WiFi, edge, 2 mp camera, front firing stereo speakers and it is smaller than the jam. I think if I didn't already have the Jam I'd be getting the Atom...maybe I will get it anyway

only 200mhz?

hi everybody.
i am thinking about to buy a htc wizard (qtek 9100).
i now noticed that the qtek s110 has 416mhz, but the 9100 only 200.
is there a big difference between the two, or is the 200mhz processor as fast as the one with 416?
thx

the Wizard has a differend type of processor than the s110. Its kind of like Intel vs AMD. The mhz doesn't mean it is slower.

I think the wizard is slightly quicker then the intel one but what slows it down is lack of programs using the texas instruments processor extensions and the
non persistant program memory which slows the program loading times quite a lot.
but u get more use out of your batt as it doesnt reserve 30% batt life for ram.

Does the universal lose everything if the battery goes to 0% ? I thought the wizard and the universal were both the same in that they retained their status even on no power ?

knowsleyroader: you are correct. They use persistent memory that will be retained without power. They're slower as a result, but the benefit is what is considered a marginal battery life improvement.
All should read this:
http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2005/11/17/494177.aspx
Wizard is generally considered fine for cpu power. I've never used it, but most seem to say it's fine on everything except Skype (which some have found ok). Since you can't get another device with WM5 of the Magician's size (I think), the Wizard is pretty much your only choice right now.
Unless you've got a 700w
V

Pocket Quake runs at a respectable 8.5fps (default settings), and 14.5 (optiomized settings, no sound). I have the Spb Benchmarks (overview below) if you want them.
I find the device slow, but it is not the processor that really slows it down, it is the IO.
On the keeps memory on power-off. I have read reports of the battery needing some fiddling inorder to recharge the battery if you let it run flat.
Spb Benchmark index 232.4 (iPAQ 3650 scored 1000)
CPU index 927.45 (iPAQ 3650 scored 1000)
File system index 94.72 (iPAQ 3650 scored 1000)
Graphics index 2862.38 (iPAQ 3650 scored 1000)
Platform index 273.92 (iPAQ 3650 scored 1000)

intel vs AMD. The mhz doesn't mean it is slower
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
speed is everything my friend
well i had a xda2 mini s had it not even a week and took it back to the o2 shop . and told the guy that the phone is far to slow for what i use it for . so i changed it for a xda2i . and now i am very happy with it never crashes and does not hang up while changing screens like the mini .
intel (r) pxa275
speed 520mhz
128mb ram
thats the speed of my 2i . in my eyes the mini is a phone and just a phone . it cant handle being a pda also . it just dont have the power . and as for the slide out keypad what a joke . my one was starting to get slack in no time . i just could not imagine how this phone would look 6 months down the line of day to day use . be smart and get something that works . ok it looks good but its slooooow
my 0.002 pence worth

musiccube said:
intel vs AMD. The mhz doesn't mean it is slower
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
speed is everything my friend
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Speed may well be to you, personally i find the functionality more important, but the MHz quote says that processor speed doesn't mean the device operation is slower. it uses a different architecture so the clock speed doesn't need to be as high for the same output (CPS would be a better measure of cpu performance IMO then all processors would be on the same scoresheet regardless of technology or clockspeed)

http://forum.xda-developers.com/posting.php?mode=reply&t
Sorry to drag this off topic a little, but I was reading the XDA-developer encylopedia, which gives claims duel core. Is it? And does duel core in the mobile world mean the same as in the desktop?
Thanks, Mike

Having owned quite a number of Pocket PCs and Windows Mobile devices over the years I have come across this sort of conversation a number of times.
The real point from my experience is that QVGA devices such as the Wizard / Mini S do not need the speed of say a VGA device such as the Exec / HP hx4705. Speed is needed on VGA devices due to the quantity of pixels that need to be updated on the screen. My HP 2210 QVGA device was quicker in a number of ways than my hx4705 and there latter machine was quoted to have more than a 50% speed increase.
I do notice my Wizard slow a little using PocketInformant when I need to filter or search. That to me looks like processor speed. But for that I get a good battery life while using the phone side quite a bit each day (it's a work sim card in there, fully paid for). My Exec however is quicker at data sorting, filtering etc. but relatively slow to update the screen, rotate the screen etc. Exactly the same as my hx4705, also VGA running the last version of Windows Mobile.
I have no reservation in suggesting the Wizard to people wanting to do a bit of everything. I haven't tried playing a film on it yet but I would expect that to be ok as long as the film is encoded to suite. But power users would likely look to either a more powerful solo device or have a second device to compliment it.
I was just lucky that O2 in the UK are offering such rediculous prices for both the Wizard and the Exec that I could get both.

acetuk said:
Wizard / Mini S do not need the speed of say a VGA device such as the
of everything. I haven't tried playing a film on it yet but I would expect that
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except the magican (a model down, sports the same size screen) is 400MHz.

That's a very interesting point. But is it the same make of processor? I expect it was running a Xscale processor.
It might well be that HTC decided / realised that for a phone edition model with a small QVGA screen pure raw speed is not really needed. By moving to the TI processor they kept to about the same speed for most real world scenarios (loading programs, looking up contacts, making calls and so on) and then gained elsewhere (received good battery life etc).
All I can really say is that my wizard is faster in certain core areas of these devices (screen redrawing for example) but loses out on pure raw data processing. But as I said at the start of this I don't read the benchmarks. My wizard is a fraction of a second slower than my exec at loading PocketInformant which I can live with.
I think the wizard is positioned correctly after one week of using it. But then I never used the predecessor so I can't compare the two. Having come from one of the fastest non-phone devices on the market though I can't say I'm really noticing the slowness of these devices. Not out in the real world when I am using them.
Now, I just have to sell on my hx4705. And to say that must mean I am happy!
Thanks for the interesting conversation - I'm new here but already feel at home.

well, but I heard alot that the MDAcII with its TI CPU is too slow to open large documents and so is useless for bussiness and that seems to be a problem of the CPU-power!

I've been using a Blue Angel for the last year and actually think that the Wizard is faster for my own use, as a Phone first and PDA second the market that IMHO opinion the Wizard is actually aimed at.
I use SPB to close down apps properly that I use infrequently (word/Excel etc..) and just minimize apps that I use frequently such as Outlook/Phone and my Wizard flies. Even TomTom5 appears to run much faster than on Blue Angel with route replanning completing in the blink of an eye.
Fair enough if you are asking it to run intensive apps a 2i or universal will be faster but those devices are more PDA than Phone whereas the Wizard is the reverse.
For reference mine is an O2 UK supplied XDA Mini S branded device on standard O2 UK rom with all O2 active rubbish removed. Even the battery life beats my SE k750i mobile it has just replaced!

wilesd said:
I've been using a Blue Angel for the last year and actually think that the Wizard is faster for my own use, as a Phone first and PDA second the market that IMHO opinion the Wizard is actually aimed at.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ooh so I'm not alone!
Same here, especially for browsing heavy sites. The BA would take ages formatting the pages, the Wizard also takes time but less. Interface seems faster to me too (once apps loaded - loading time is dependent on the new memory architecture).
Browsing photos with Resco photo explorer is about the same.
The only point on where I can see big difference is video playback. I haven't been able to play a single video without hangups yet, either by using the same ones than I had on the BA or by trying to reencode differently (using TCPMP). A video that would play at 125% on the BA runs maybe at 75-80%. That annoys me because I would like to use it to show videos to people as a demo, which obviously looks less serious if not smooth.
I wonder if that is TCPMP-related or OMAP-related...
BUT, battery life is great!!

Hey guys, i'm considering 'upgrading'(?) from an xda2i to the mini s, and i've noticed you talking about different programs running faster/slower on either device. Was wondering if you could give me a 'rule of thumb' as to which programs would have loss performance in the mini s compared the the 2i?
Thanks

kilrah said:
wilesd said:
I've been using a Blue Angel for the last year and actually think that the Wizard is faster for my own use, as a Phone first and PDA second the market that IMHO opinion the Wizard is actually aimed at.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ooh so I'm not alone!
Same here, especially for browsing heavy sites. The BA would take ages formatting the pages, the Wizard also takes time but less. Interface seems faster to me too (once apps loaded - loading time is dependent on the new memory architecture).
Browsing photos with Resco photo explorer is about the same.
The only point on where I can see big difference is video playback. I haven't been able to play a single video without hangups yet, either by using the same ones than I had on the BA or by trying to reencode differently (using TCPMP). A video that would play at 125% on the BA runs maybe at 75-80%. That annoys me because I would like to use it to show videos to people as a demo, which obviously looks less serious if not smooth.
I wonder if that is TCPMP-related or OMAP-related...
BUT, battery life is great!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Similar experience here - my former PDA is a Dell X50V with a 624Mhz processor and PocketPC 2003SE, at times it's surprisingly sluggish. However, the wizard is more responsive - although I miss the VGA screen in general I prefer the Wizard for browsing.
My only complaint about the processor so far (I haven't tried gaming) is that it's not much good for playing back wmvs. I've not experimented much with it but this is an area where the X50V is very good - it can play highish bitrate WMVs no sweat. The Wizard seems to struggle, even with lower resolution and bitrate wmvs it stutters.
John

About this, how to overclock the wizard ... ??!!

musiccube said:
intel (r) pxa275
speed 520mhz
128mb ram
thats the speed of my 2i .....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Universal has all that too. But, guess what, the overall experience of that "flagship" is slower than the Wizard. Which goes to show, the CPU clock speed has b*gger all to do with how a device performs in the real world.

Speed / Performance Comparison w/ Magician

I'm looking to replace my Magician with the Trinity. I've had some good times with my Magician and have been extremely happy with it. The Trinity has everything I want in an upgrade, but I'm worried about its processor compared to the Intel XScale 416MHz. How does the Samsung 400MHz compare? Has anyone owned the Magician as well that can compare the two? I want something at least as fast as the Magician for use in windows apps, and gaming performance in particular. If anyone has been able to play with both devices I would really appreciate your thoughts about the speed compared between the two.
Thanks

I'm also interested, having a Magician. I'm looking for a good reason (or rather excuse) to upgrade!

I don't have a Magician, but if you find a benchmark you'd like me to run on my Trinity, I'd be more than happy to help you compare them.

please use sk tools. Benchmarking is possible with trial version.
http://s-k-tools.com/index.html?m_downloads.html#tools
Thank you,

I upgraded from a Magician to the black beauty Trinity...
And haven't regretted it for a minute. The only downside for me was that i had to get used to a dutch OS instead of english, because in the Netherlands a WWE version is sadly not available.
As far as performance goes, i can tell you that literally everything on the Trinity runs smooth, fast en stable. Of course there are some fine-tuning bugs to be ironed out, but hey: was the Magician that good on it's first ROM ?
The only things that have annoyed me so far, are the horribly slow response to scrolling using the wheel (and the Dpad aswell in fact), and the fact that we have to deal with the MS BT stack which will always have it's bugs and annoyances.
The processor can do a lot at the same time without slowing the device down (only exception being A2DP), and i was pretty suprised how much i could install into main memory on this device. It has around 60 Megs free storage at first use, and that's almost double the size of the 'storage'partition on the initial Magician (half of the 64 Megs RAM).
Batterytime is also significantly better than that of a Magician (even so with having a UMTS radio on all the time), and the screen is just awesome
WiFi has great reception, and the device is much nicer to handle than a Magician due to it's more rounded curves and bigger/more buttons and WM5 being much more focused to one-handed operation (which works very nice).
Absolutely great device i must say, so i'll recommend: take the plunge !
I just hope that a well-tuned ROM that fixes the little annoyances will be released soon, so this baby can take me through at least the next 3 years. If that ROM contains GPS as well, it'll make the P3600 the ultimate killer device (but i can live without, as using a BT GPS mouse works just as well for me).

Benchmarking
Thanks for your info, Moaske.
Another excellent benchmarking tool is SPB Benchmark. You can download this software for free at: http://www.spbsoftwarehouse.com/downloads/benchmark/SpbBenchmark1.6_setup.zip
mikesol, If you could also please post your benchmark results with this software we would greatly appreciate it!

Moaske said:
As far as performance goes, i can tell you that literally everything on the Trinity runs smooth, fast en stable. Of course there are some fine-tuning bugs to be ironed out, but hey: was the Magician that good on it's first ROM ?
QUOTE]
Thanks Moaske. Yes, I agree that no PDA is perfect from the first ROM. What I am concerned about is about HTC releasing ROMs, or rather their lack of doing so. I purchased my Jam from one of the first batches to arrive in the UK, and Imate released regular ROM updates for the first few months. AFAIK, HTC have not yet released a ROM update for any of their devices. I am also not so sure of HTC's level and commitment of support. The one time I had to send the Jam in for repairs, I was very pleased with the way Imate handled the matter. Still to be seen if HTC can do the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

benchmark
Well, I use both (JAM and P3600)
Did the benchmark per your request (attached), with SK Tools
Enjoy

Obviosly the Jam is way faster than the trinity i some areas
RAM access Speed index; Jam 6806, Trinity 1644
Main storage (read)KB/sec; Jam 7236, Trinity 3032
Storage Card (write); Jam 671, Trinity 154
In two areas the Trinity is faster:
Main storage (write)KB/sec; Jam 269, Trinity 493
Draw bitmaps Speed index; Jam 424, Trinity 542
The big question is of course: what does these differences mean in real life use?

@tomerbn thank you for your help.
in my oppinion there will be no remarkable difference in daily use. maybe programs will be opened a little bit slower but without a stopwatch you don´t realize it.
a fine toy and for sure my new phone
fore comparision data from artemis with omap 200 cpu:
Integer;102.3848;Moves/25 usec
Floating point;2.524;MWIPS
RAM access;231;Speed index
Draw bitmaps;377;Speed index
Main storage (write); 638.60;KB/sec
Main storage (read);2094.78;KB/sec

Well it's fast until you try to playback videos with TCPMP.
The OMAP 850 beats the Samsung 400 Mhz.
This cpu is no good for video and relies on IMAGEON coprocessor for hardware acceleration. And as long as it's not working...
http://www.corecodec.com/forum/index.php?topic=3688.0

did you activate GDI ?

what do you mean by "activate GDI"?

Hi,
I traded my Magician to a white Trinity last week. Trinity is cool!
I have no clue on the comparison figures; but from my own usage, I think that:
1. Trinity runs WM5 smoothly, better than O2 Atom
2. screen display is cool, but nearly blackout under sunlight
3. BT 2.0 (and A2DP) is good; now I can listen to my fav songs via BT
I am very happy with Trinity!

meroupow said:
what do you mean by "activate GDI"?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i read in a german forum, if you activate GDI in video settings, then playback should run smoothly. i do not use tcmp so i cannot give further hints.

meroupow said:
Well it's fast until you try to playback videos with TCPMP.
The OMAP 850 beats the Samsung 400 Mhz.
This cpu is no good for video and relies on IMAGEON coprocessor for hardware acceleration. And as long as it's not working...
http://www.corecodec.com/forum/index.php?topic=3688.0
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Set it to 'RAW-framebuffer' and it will run smooth as butter
The main problem with the ATI-imageon, is that it isn't being used at firmware level (yet)... If it had, this would be one great device

tom0_1 said:
...in my oppinion there will be no remarkable difference in daily use. maybe programs will be opened a little bit slower but without a stopwatch you don´t realize it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree absolutely with that
But the slow response is not all that consistent anyway, most of the time it's response is very snappy....maybe i wan't clear about that. It's only the scrolling that responds terribly slow... and A2DP is a damn heavy task on the processor, so the little slowdown in response is less worse than i had expected...
All in all a great device; way cool upgrade, way better...

Moaske said:
Set it to 'RAW-framebuffer' and it will run smooth as butter
The main problem with the ATI-imageon, is that it isn't being used at firmware level (yet)... If it had, this would be one great device
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do not agree:
- first for best quality directdraw is better than rawframebuffer and is equivalent in terms of performance.
- second "smoth as better" except for h264, xvid, wmv... and anything that is more than 320*240. so in fact it's smooth only with divx 5, 320*240 reencoded movies.
oh let me think... it's compete crap in fact since my HP4350 bought 3 or 4 years ago is able to play whatever full divx movie without reencoding and only have 400Mhz Xscale cpu.

So i understand that re-encoding is to much a hassle for you...? And you expect full-size DVD movies to run on such an underpowered device ? Honestly; could the Magician cope with VGA or higher movies at high framerates...? Mine didn't...

Movie playback
It sounds like the general vibe here is that the Trinity pretty much sucks for playing movies compared to the XScale 416MHz. I can't figure out why HTC is going with the Samsung CPU instead of Intel for their new devices! Cheaper maybe? This device could have been so sweet if it had the right processor in it.

Why niki is slow?

Why niki is slow?? This is my question... I have an older qtek 2020 and it's very faster than niki... why??

video drivers... install a rom with the s600 driver already on it, trust me, its wayyyy faster.
I recomend Mary v.02.

Yes I installed but it's not faster than a lot of other device uff.. It is very slow.,..

I can only compare it to my S110, its a little faster in certain things, but slower in games and emulation, not that much slower... just enought to be noticed.

yesterday I saw an iphone and it's very faster,..

Billokko said:
yesterday I saw an iphone and it's very faster,..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Diferent hardware and OS, you really cant compare...

Iphone's cpu is almost twice as fast as the dual's one
And it has proper hardware accaleration;p

ok but in comparison to others devices niki is very slow...

In that we agree... My S100 from 2003 is much faster than this, but because it was that old it had a lot of other problems, the battery was starting to fail, a side button was broken and couldnt be easily fixed, some newer programs werent wm2003 compatible, etc...
Its sad that most new phones are so below the old ones, and the few that are better are unreasonably expensive.
I can still buy a brand new S110 for about 100/150€ with 416mhz, 128 of ram and 128 of rom, and thanks to wm2003 i can have a wooping free ram of 90mb (depending if its the s100 or s110) and the video card works fine, so everything is smooth.
The design, sound and camera of the dual are obviously superior, plus it can have 3g internet, but it costs 4 times more than the S110.
Just sad...

soulcrusher said:
Iphone's cpu is almost twice as fast as the dual's one
And it has proper hardware accaleration;p
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Almost twice as fast, you mean 600mHz versus 400mHz ....
The Niki has proper hardware acceleration, its just the muppets at HTC that haven't bothered to use it in any way, shape or form.

Tought iphone was about 750 mhz
Anyways, a Niki doesnt have drivers wich we all know, but compare ANY wm5 or wm6 mobile to a wm2003 or even older(!) device, and the older one outperforms the newer one. WM2003 devices use sdram, and newer ones mostly flash memory, wich is way slower (because a wm2003 device couldnt be turned of because of the ram memory that loses it's storage). So every program that writes or reads often from the memory is considerable slower on wm6 than on wm2003. But if you compare a wizard to a nike, the nike's way faster because of it's cpu.