Hi All,
I have such a big Power issue with the Magician, or at least Orange's M500 version of it that i'm thinking of taking back the device :'(
It doesn't appear to be a device fault, but a design fault.
In the manual it says that if you press the power button for a short time (less than a second) it turns the PDA on and off. This seems to be correct.
In the manual it says that if you press and hold the power button for two seconds it turns the phone off, but this doesn't work. Instead it turns on and off the back light. If the PDA is on, it turns on and off the back light. If the PDA is off it turns it on with the backlight on.
Last night I turned my PDA into standby mode (As i can't turn the phone off) before going to bed. Around 3am in the morning my PDA woke up saying that the battery power was low. I turned the PDA back into standby mode but it complained later on that night. i.e. had a bad nights sleep last night.
I thought it best to remove the main battery so that it wouldn't continue to wake me up, making sure that the phone and PDA were turned off (no power) and let the data backup battery retain the data until i woke up (5 hours time). However, when i woke up the internal data backup batery was flat. It was fully charged before the i took the main battery out. It is supposed to last 72 hours right!!!!? What a nightmare!
I was wondering if anyone could help me answer these power related questions, as i love the device, but its useless if it won't retain the data when it says it should.
How do you turn the phone off so that nothing is running at all? (i.e. to make sure that the internal battery is only being used to retain my data)
Does activating bluetooth drain the main battery faster even when the PDA is in standby mode? (I think i may have left it switched on last night)
Why would the internal data retention battery drain flat in under 5 hours when the main battery is removed loosing all data? Does it need the main battery in place in order to work? Could the phone and the PDA in standby mode by running off of the internal power?
Thanks in advance to any help you can give. As you can imagine i'm very disappointed as i love the functionality of this device.
Neil
When you took the battery out and left it out, if you had slid the back down (this is the same as a power off) you would of been ok.
The action of sliding the back down and back up is equvalent to a power off. When you press the power button after this, it is like a cold boot. (Not a hard reset)
I hope that made sense.
So to power off the phone and PDA you have to slide off the battery cover and slide it back on again without taking the battery out. Surely there is an easier way to turn off the phone and PDA that to remove the battery cover?
Thats how i do it. I'm sure there is a different [proper] way, but i'm not sure what it is.
Hi
The main battery when flat enough to power off the pda should have 72 hours data retention, its designed that way... so if it goes flat on friday you will still have your data on monday. thats why it was designed that way and apparently it shuts of at 50% capacity.
Bluetooth active will drain more power.
the backup battery is only supposed to last around 20 mins or less, designed so you can take the main battery out without losing data. this is because Ram needs constant voltage to store contents. hence if you leave your main battery out for more time the backup battery has charge you will end up with a hard reset occuring.
The manual needs to be updated i guess. If you want to turn off the phone you can turn on flight mode which disables the GSM radio functions.
Oh and out of interest for the battery type Li ion, its actually better to keep them charged, they dont have cycles like older batteries. they only have a certain lifespan which starts from the date of manufactor and keeping them at low charge degrades them faster.
Enjoy
SpeedN
So up until the 50% point, pressing the power button just puts the PDA in standby and the Phone is still running. Only when the power goes below 50% ish does the PDA power off completely?
So after the phone is fully charged, the M500 battery life meter says there is 6 hours and 31 minutes of battery life in it. You say that the device will turn itself off at 50% battery life remaining, so that means it only has 3h 15m of useable time before it switches off? Can the phone / PDA be used when power gets below 50% or will it just not power up until its recharged?
Thanks for your help BTW very useful information.
Neil
The battery life meter will say eg 6h 31m, the device will turn off in 6h 31m give or take (usage dependant).
when the device is flat there will be still 50% capacity in the battery to allow for the 72 hours data retention. hope thats clearer.
when it is in that state it wont turn on I think...sorry been along time since i been in that state, untill you charge it.
SpeedN
Surely the easiest way to solve this (and yes I was fooled by the manuals answer to press and hold) is to enable flight mode(which turns the phone off) then turn off ? there are a few apps/ shortcuts that will switch to flight mode easily, you then simply press the off button.
Or did I miss something
I think when we push the power off button (or if we select the machine to be powered off after a period of idle time, through setting), the machine will be off except GSM functions. So when you turn on again, it takes a few seconds to make the machine runs.
You can try if you turn off the button, after few minutes (should be more than 180 seconds), then push the Green button to dial, it takes 3-5 seconds to make the dialing pad comes out.
If you do not select the machine to be power off after a period of idle time, you can use other software to "screen off" the machine, so that when you push green button to dial, it comes out very quickly.
If you turn off the GMS, and turn off the PDA, it will not really get into sleep but will be in the state of retention of data. In any case, when you wake up the machine it takes a few seconds.
Therefore, when you are on the run (say on the street) and make calls frequently, do not power off the machine so that you can make calls quickly.
That is only my experience, I have checked other HP and XDA phones, same results. So nothing to do with the speed CPU and size internal ram.
When the machine is ON, I under clock to 208, the dialing pad also comes out very quickly.
flight mode = on , thats all, it turns the gsm function off, so battery would last long.
With the HD2's pretty short battery life compared to my previous HTC phones, and also as I was a bit bored , I decided to have a look at how much the different systems drain in the HD2, and did some tests.
So for anyone interested, here are the results:
Base consumptions: (pick the one that suits your situation)
Standby, phone on, WIFI+BT off, no connections active: 5mA
Processor running idle, screen off, connections as above: 55mA
100% CPU usage (Coreplayer benchmark), connections as above: 315mA
USB connected, connections as above: 125mA
Additions: (add this to the base one depending on what you have on)
Connections:
BT on, idle: +1mA
Wifi on, idle: +5mA BUT!! If you enable wifi during standby (with BsB Tweaks or the WifiNoStandby CAB), the processor does NOT go to standby
anymore, so the base needs to be the 55mA above!
Connected to EDGE, idle: not measureable
Connected to 3G, idle: +4mA
Beware those 2 will occasionally and unpredictably send data every now and then, so this doesn't necessarily mean much.
BT transfer (file copy through ActiveSync, 120kB/s, CPU usage ~2%): +80mA
Wifi transfer (file copy with Wifi Remote access, 1MB/s, CPU usage ~3%): +200mA
EDGE/3G transfer: Pretty impossible to measure due to so many variables, but can be extreme (total current consumptions of 850-1150mA, so very approximative 500-800mA draw from the data connection during page loads are common!), and leads to most of the energy draw when using the net a lot. EDGE uses more power than 3G, consumption is higher when network coverage is lower, bad network throughput or congestion also mean lots of retries/overhead and less effective data transfer, using power for a longer time until the data is finally there.
Memory access (large file transfer):
Internal read/write through ActiveSync (speeds 2.5 / 2.1 MB/s respectively): +20mA / +130mA
Card read/write through ActiveSync (speeds 3.2 / 2.7MB/s respectively): +25mA / +40mA
Card read/write in USB disk mode (speeds 7.5 / 5MB/s respectively): +40mA / +45mA
Backlight:
10%: +65mA
20%: +78mA
30%: +90mA
40%: +105mA
50%: +121mA
60%: +136mA
70%: +154mA
80%: +170mA
90%: +190mA
100%:+210mA
GPS:
+95mA
Flashlight (with HTC Flashlight):
Level 1: +32mA
Level 2 (same as camera flash on): +107mA
Level 3 (same as camera "bright flash during shot"): +530mA
And remember the battery capacity: 1230mAh
So with this you can calculate your battery life for various activities. For example:
- Playing a video with full backlight: Let's say the video is well encoded (30% CPU use, for example 720x400 1Mbps DivX), that's about 150mA base, + 210mA backlight = 360mA, resulting in about 3h20 battery life.
- Same at night with only 40% backlight: Life goes up to about 5h!
- Wifi during standby for an 8h night, or a program that somehow prevents the phone from entering standby: 60mA or 55mA respectively, draining about 40% of the battery during that time.
- GPS program, with 70% backlight: Let's assume 150mA for the processor as it has some work to do, 90mA for the GPS, 154mA for the backlight = 394mA, or 3 hours.
- Music through wired headphones, screen off: the 55mA base plus a little 5mA as MP3 decoding is nothing for the CPU = 60mA or 20h.
- Same with a BT headset, with about half the BT bandwidth: 60+40 = 100mA or 12h
etc.
Charging
[EDIT 14.04.10]
This is now a dedicated section as I did some more thorough charging tests.
So, as some of you might know, the HD2 has 2 charging "modes".
- One is USB, that is used if the phone is connected to a PC, or an unknown device. In this mode, the current the HD2 will draw from the port/charger is limited to approx. 470mA, to stay within the maximum of 500mA a USB port can supply.
- The other is "dedicated charger", which is recognised on the original HTC charger (and some others, it's becoming a standard for a "dedicated charging USB port") by shorting of the 2 data pins of the USB connector in the charger.
USB charge
Important to know, during USB charge, the phone will NOT go to sleep, as it's supposed to be connected to a PC, and be running either ActiveSync, Disk drive mode, or modem, and in all 3 cases would be expected not to shutdown. So not only the current supplied to the HD2 is low, but the phone draws some of it for itself, leaving very little for actual charge - so expect loooong charge times.
USB charge with screen on (backlight dimmed, 10%): 285mA
USB charge with screen off (standby): 345mA (which shows the processor still runs and draws the "base USB" current)
Dedicated charger
When used with a charger that has the 2 USB data pins shorted, such as the original charger, the HD2 will draw a current that is proportional to the voltage on the USB power lines. To measure this I have used the original supplied USB cable, a variable regulated power supply, USB socket (with data pins shorted), and 2 meters for voltage/current. Voltages are measured at the "PC" end of the USB cable, so not taking account of losses in the USB cable. Will talk more about this later on.
Current vs Voltage diagrams are attached. Charge current is proportional to voltage, linearly until it reaches the max charge current, approx 830mA. This was measured so that the only draw is charge. If the phone is turned on while at max charge current, it will draw extra, until it reaches about 980mA, and will then stop to respect the 1A rating of the stock charger.
Now, to the influence of USB cables. I initially had some trouble with inconsistant numbers, phone only drawing 670mA from the stock charger, i.e matching neither the ~350mA from USB, or ~830mA from stock charger in "normal" condition. Turns out that to make it more convenient on my workplace I was using an USB extension between charger and HD2 cable. It was a $2 extension I bought on Dealextreme. Removing it solved the problem... and after making those measurements I poked with it again. Turns out that at 1A current, the voltage drop in the extension (which by the way isn't longer than the HD2's USB cable) was 1.8V! Yep, nearly 2 Ohms for a 1.5m extension! Couldn't believe it.
I have a cheap Chinese microUSB cable that wasn't as bad,but still significantly more resistive than the stock one, hence me noting I used the stock cable for my tests. So, quality of the cables, extensions, adapters IS important! Note the phone correctly reaches full charge current a little bit under the 5V USB spec, so everything is well tuned.
Now, important to know, Most 3rd party chargers will not have the 2 USB data pins shorted, and will thus result in the same behavior as mentioned under USB charge, the processor will also be running continuously drawing the "base USB" current.
It is often possible to modify 3rd party chargers by opening them and shorting the pins, speeding up charge. The voltage/current curve behavior is actually helping there, because thanks to it if the charger is overloaded its voltage will most likely fall a bit, and the HD2 will thus draw less and find a nice balance point. This DOES NOT mean there's no possiblilty of damaging the charger, but all 3 I modified did well. One that was really weak resulted in not much more current being drawn after the mod than before (i.e voltage fell very low, approx. 4.4V), however the gain from not having the processor running like in USB mode still sped up charge a little.
Thank you, that is one useful chunk of comprehensive information
Could you please explain the exact measuring method for these tests?
40% backlight at night is a tough example tho, Lumos on my device is set to 10% for 0 sensor value, and only because I can't set it to lower than 10%... nice to know battery drain goes up twice from 10% to 60%!
Also, 100% is usually really necessary under direct sunlight, in a normal lit room probably 40% backlight is more than enough to watch a video... all in all, with your superinteresting info, the battery doesn't look like lasting "too short" now, but more or less "the right amount considering the battery capacity".
My iPaq 210 has a 2200mAh battery, just to make a comparison... that's why I could go for 8 hrs during some bus trips while watching tv series, and I just needed to swap battery and used a little of the second one.
What's your estimate of the drain caused by activating push email? I've recently been doing some rather crude experiments myself, and one provisional conclusion is that push email on a hotmail account uses a lot more battery than push email on an Exchange server.
Excellent stuff, you are to be congratulated.
I have a long held theory and I wonder if you are in a position to to test it?
I believe that battery consumption is greatly increased when an app is run from mem card and would be intrigued to see a comparison between an install to this as opposed to phone mem.
Any chance?
Battery levels
I found that power consumption of the battery got even worse after I went to Rom 1.66.707.1. However, after a few days, I let it run all the way out, switched back on, it ran out after a few minutes. Then after an overnight charge I found the battery (on standby) only went down by about 10 -12 % in 24hrs. I'm hoping this performance will continue.
What did you use for the testing?
pa49 said:
Excellent stuff, you are to be congratulated.
I have a long held theory and I wonder if you are in a position to to test it?
I believe that battery consumption is greatly increased when an app is run from mem card and would be intrigued to see a comparison between an install to this as opposed to phone mem.
Any chance?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would be reasonable as reading from an external media will need energy to access its contents... still, once the app files have been loaded into the device's RAM, it shouldn't matter much
You could also test by comparing:
1) copy say 30mb from one location to another of the internal mem
2) copy from microsd to microsd
3) copy from mem to microsd
4) copy from microsd to mem
ephestione said:
Could you please explain the exact measuring method for these tests?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Simply using the built-in current sensor, getting the reads from AEBPlus battery information screen, and methodically turning things on/off once the others are evaluated and can be subtracted from the total reading.
ephestione said:
40% backlight at night is a tough example tho, Lumos on my device is set to 10% for 0 sensor value, and only because I can't set it to lower than 10%...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? You should force the backlight off then
I love bright images myself, so even in my bed in total darkness if I watch a video or photos I'll force 100% backlight I have Lumos set to force 100% for Coreplayer, Resco Photo manager and HTC album
Of course not for browsing or just messing around, in that case it's 20% for me
Shasarak said:
What's your estimate of the drain caused by activating push email? I've recently been doing some rather crude experiments myself, and one provisional conclusion is that push email on a hotmail account uses a lot more battery than push email on an Exchange server.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's one thing I'd have no idea about... I've never used push email at all. And that's "standby usage", so hard to evaluate, as you never know when it kicks in.
Measuring that would need to be done on a long time. I'd say to leave your phone one night with push email off, one night with Exchange only, and one night with hotmail only, and then check the difference, preferably with a battery at about 80% charge at the start (mine seems to fall from 100% to 90% in a few minutes before becoming more regular, so I'd say the top of the scale isn't that reliable).
And I should really try push email once, that would be nice, but I *think* I have no provider that can do it for me... well I have a gmail account I never use, I should try to see if I can have it check my usual 3 mail accounts, aggregate and push... never really looked into that stuff.
pa49 said:
Excellent stuff, you are to be congratulated.
I have a long held theory and I wonder if you are in a position to to test it?
I believe that battery consumption is greatly increased when an app is run from mem card and would be intrigued to see a comparison between an install to this as opposed to phone mem.
Any chance?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks
Well I'd tend to refute that theory, because when I tested the BT and Wifi in use I tried read from internal memory, write to internal, read from card and write to card, and all 4 were identical. I should have mentioned it indeed, but I was mostly interested to seeing if reads (wifi/BT "sending") and writes (wifi/BT "receiving") would have an influence on consumption, which wasn't the case, as well as whether the throughput was different, which wasn't the case either.
But I've done a few more tests, see the updated first post
One intersting thing is firstly that when the HD2 is connected to USB, the current draw grows significantly, so I've made a new "base consumption".
Next, the card is actually faster than the internal memory both in reads and in writes, tested both through activesync for consistency. Writing to the internal memory eats a LOT more than writing to the card. Reading from the card eats a little more than reading from internal memory, probably evens out as the reads are shorter due to faster transfer rate.
I've added some charging tests as well. Apparently, even if the phone "disconnects" from USB when turned off, the processor still runs and uses about the "USB connected" base current.
kilrah said:
Simply using the built-in current sensor, getting the reads from AEBPlus battery information screen, and methodically turning things on/off once the others are evaluated and can be subtracted from the total reading.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
d'oh aebplus has a battery information screen, checking it right away In that case you'd have to take into consideration aebplus' current absorption anyway... which is not measurable as you cannot check the current intake of aebplus without aebplus being running
I have the cab on the sd already, but didn't install if after noticing that didn't work for button assignments with later versions of the rom... does it work for you on that side? I used the program all the time on my previous ipaq because it was oh so useful but never got around to notice it had a battery info subsection.
Really? You should force the backlight off then
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wouldn't have much sense doing it in the dark would it (admitting it's possible altogether on the HD2!)
But I actually used my oooold casio cassiopeia, about 7 years ago, with backlight turned off, while reading ebooks with speed reader plus during train trips, as the neon lights created a reflection good enough on the display so that I didn't need backlight...
in the end, the backlight died altogether and until I bought a new device, I managed to use it with light turned off
A flashing LED (incoming SMS warning, e.g.) seems to add consumption of 1-3mA.
Running FlexMail in background with a push service (IMAP IDLE) adds up to 30mA.
ephestione said:
does it work for you on that side?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AEBPlus works fine for me yes... but I don't have a "latest version" ROM AFAIK. I don't like WM6.5.x new softkey arrangement, so I'm staying with 6.5.
Anyway more about Push, I configured that through gmail yesterday, and it works just fine. I left it on during the night, and this morning I had lost 8% battery. So it's pretty much negligible. I received 2 e-mails during the night and was on 3G network.
this is a nice topic! i am interested in how much extra it uses when you are playing a MP3 with the build in HTC app?
maybe it would be a nice idea to make a program that outputs results like you pasted fast and easy (something like a benchmark app) so we can test different rom's fast? too bad i cant write anything otherwise i would try..
OK, seems MP3 uses 120mA screen off, both with Sense player and Coreplayer, so:
Processor running idle, screen off base + 65mA
But it seems to make some pretty big "jumps" once in a while. Maybe they both decode ior fetch from memory by "batches"...
my test,
HD2 rom 1.66
with BT on and BT off (configured but no connection to headset) difference in consumption is 60mA .!
BT is draining my HD2 .!
kilrah said:
OK, seems MP3 uses 120mA screen off, both with Sense player and Coreplayer, so:
Processor running idle, screen off base + 65mA
But it seems to make some pretty big "jumps" once in a while. Maybe they both decode ior fetch from memory by "batches"...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK, I can't confirm the BT issue. Did you observe over a long period of time? The "quiet" current for MP3 I seem to get is 185mA with screen on and backlight at 10%, but sometimes it will climb to 280-320mA for a moment and go down again, both with BT on and off. With screen off for a while it seems to stabilise at the "quiet" level.
BTW, it seems that Advanced task manager isn't reporting CPU usage levels properly. Does someone know of a CPU monitor that works correclty on the HD2?
Yup. review over multiple 6 mins. all baseline(3g/brightness) setting the same. resetting each time for off on BT.
kilrah said:
OK, I can't confirm the BT issue. Did you observe over a long period of time? The "quiet" current for MP3 I seem to get is 185mA with screen on and backlight at 10%, but sometimes it will climb to 280-320mA for a moment and go down again, both with BT on and off. With screen off for a while it seems to stabilise at the "quiet" level.
BTW, it seems that Advanced task manager isn't reporting CPU usage levels properly. Does someone know of a CPU monitor that works correclty on the HD2?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Another consideration:
Data connection sucks power when used actively. Badly. As mentioned in the OP I haven't made comprehensive tests due to low monthly allowance, but I've had a look during normal use.
I'm pretty regularly doing 1hr train rides, during which I will be listnening to music , and browse the net at the same time. It's usually bright, so backlight will probably be at 70%. Signal is relatively low most of the time, on EDGE, inbetween small towns. When I'm on a "static" page (reading an already loaded page), current drain varies between 250 and 350mA.
But while loading a page, it will easily soar to 800mA+. Considering it takes 30-60 seconds to read a page, 20 to load a new one, and repeat... you can quickly see that this kind of usage leads to serious drain... in less than 2 hours the battery would be dead.
So be aware of how much power data connection will use. It's directly proportional to the amount of transferred data, and the worse the reception the more power it uses.
I should try using opera mini again, like I was always doing on my Kaiser. I never noticed excessive drain with it, but opera mini easily divides traffic by a factor of 10...
Just wanted to report that the new version of the superuseful BattClock has now a builtin battery current output, even if it's not really update once per second... seems more like one every 10 seconds.
I get ~240mA playing fullscreen stretched Frasier in lowest backlight (but that's with the keypad leds turned on all the time, I don't know why they don't go off, and I don't have keypadledcontrol installed... so that's a problem), and I get a total 630mA with HTC flashlight at maximum.
Good news! Bye bye Batti
Normal about the refresh time, the sensor only updates every 20 secs or so.
Some new considerations I posted somewhere else but should have put here.
After some time the HD2 seems to have better battery life, but usually it's not your battery lasting longer, it's just you not spending your day playing with the thing anymore.
It's always the same thing, the more a device can do, the more you do with it. On my first 1h train journeys after getting my HD2, I was able to kill 50% battery in 1hr. My first thought was "wow, with my Kaiser I would only use like 15%!!"
But then I took a second thought. I used 50%, but I was browsing the web, in bad reception areas, while listening to music the whole time. With my Kaiser, I'd put music on, check 3 webpages, then put it on the tray with just MSN connected and just pick it up to read/type a message once in a while.
On a next trip, I "forced myself" to do the same with the HD2. Just checked the news for 5 mins, then only listened to music and picked up msn once in a while, plus an unexpected 10min phone call. Guess what? I've only used 20% battery during the trip this time
The "problem" is that browsing with the Kaiser was just painful, so I'd just check the news and put it away. On the HD2 it's so comfortable I forget it and just spend my whole trip browsing heavy pages, which obviously kills battery in no time...
exactly my thoughts and findings
Firstly, this is in relation to the battery drain issue concerning the 'time without signal' bug.
Okay, I've done three repeated tests, all leading to the same results. Basically, it seems that when I restart/reboot my phone, a number of applications etc. show up in the 'battery use' menu, including 'Android OS' and 'Android Operating System', 'Dialer', etc. Battery drain at this stage is quite bad at around 8-10 (Battery ETA) percent per hour with barely any use. Now, when I plug my phone briefly into the computer letting it charge a few percent, and then unplug it (under usb setting, without detecting sd cards), these applications reduce down to only four in the 'battery use' menu (Display, Cell standby, phone idle and android system).
More importantly, the 'time without signal' info mysteriously disappears from the 'cell standby menu', and battery drain reduces to 3.4 (Battery ETA) percent per hour with me playing around with the settings/apps etc.
This seems like a temporary fix to what seems to be a phone radio searching/standby issue. Can others try what I did and report back? I have little knowledge in application development, etc. so I'm hoping someone can deduce the source of the problem from this information.
Also, my phone is a stock galaxy s i9000 from virgin mobile Australia.
Update: same effect also with wall plug. Phone must be on, and only after cable is unplugged, the aformentioned occurs.
Hi.
I also notice the issue.
For example, after 4 hours and 18 m, I'm with 70% of battery left.
And I didn't do ANYTHING. Just navigate through the menu.
I tried many ROMS and the issue remains. Now I'm running on the Darky's ROM, and it is really good. Someone says that reduces battery consumption. I didn't noticed that.
Anyway, I always do the recharge with the device ON but I don't see battery save. ~10% consumption per hour.
I tried everything to reduce the battery drain!
Now I'm testing SuperPower from XDA (you can find it on the market), it's amazing, it allows you to configure profiles in each states of the phone: awake, lockscreen, sleep. It can slowdown CPU speed, disable WiFi and Mobile Data, disable autosync, and more.
Sounds good each of these features, but remember that it is still a beta.
I'm using it right now, but as you can se, the battery drain continues....