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Right guys. As you all know I like the iPhone. I also like the HTC Touch HD and it's arriving tommorow. This isn't a question of which is better, what i want to know is what the heck the different HSDPA thingies mean. e.g.
Iphone - 850/1900/2100 - 3.6megaBITs i beleive?
HTC Touch HD - 900/2100
And i beleive my current phone is...
C905 - 2100 - Also 3.6 megaBITs i beleive....
Now my question is, what does this mean? I have no idea and after some googling I'm still quite confused. All i know is that i currently download (measured in firefox, on my C905, using it as a modem) at between 150Kb/s and with download boosters up to 500KB/s.
Now then. How does the iPhone clock up to this, what do the numbers mean? Or do these numbers mean nothing in relating to download speeds? Sorry for sounding confusing. I was just wondering what the differences are like in connection speeds with each device being used as a wireless modem (which i do a LOT) thanks
-I'm from the uk on T-mobile if that helps anyone :S
Thanks for helping me guys!!
evildead4eva said:
Right guys. As you all know I like the iPhone. I also like the HTC Touch HD and it's arriving tommorow. This isn't a question of which is better, what i want to know is what the heck the different HSDPA thingies mean. e.g.
Iphone - 850/1900/2100 - 3.6megaBITs i beleive?
HTC Touch HD - 900/2100
And i beleive my current phone is...
C905 - 2100 - Also 3.6 megaBITs i beleive....
Now my question is, what does this mean? I have no idea and after some googling I'm still quite confused. All i know is that i currently download (measured in firefox, on my C905, using it as a modem) at between 150Kb/s and with download boosters up to 500KB/s.
Now then. How does the iPhone clock up to this, what do the numbers mean? Or do these numbers mean nothing in relating to download speeds? Sorry for sounding confusing. I was just wondering what the differences are like in connection speeds with each device being used as a wireless modem (which i do a LOT) thanks
-I'm from the uk on T-mobile if that helps anyone :S
Thanks for helping me guys!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK lets try to make it a bit less confusing.
850/1900/2100 are the frequencies that the phone can use, the HD uses...
850/900/1800/1900 MHz for GPRS (2G) and EDGE (2.5G) and ...
900/2100 MHz for 3G (HSPA/WCDMA)...
yet it really is acronym city, google them if you really want to know.
The Speeds you might get depend on a lot of things like...
1/ Where you are.
2/ Stationary or moving.
3/ Signal strength.
4/ What connection type your getting.
5/ How many other people are using data on the same cells.
6/ Some of the data is used up in transmission packets and redundancy.
Basically, (skip to page 40 of the HD Manual, available as a PDF from HTC).
If you see a G at the top of the screen then you have a GPRS connection with a theoretical maximum speed of about 48kbps, small b so bits.
If you see a E at the top of the screen then you have an EDGE connection with a theoretical maximum of 384kbps.
If you see 3G (never seen this myself on the HD) or H then your on a high speed connection with a theoretical maximum of 7.2Mbps.
As far as I know at the moment, there are certain parts of London where you might be able to get 7.2Mbps, but for the rest of the country your best will be 3.6Mpbs.
My Kaiser on T-Mobile with H and a really good signal was able to get 150kBps, big B so Bytes using a speed checker somewhere, lots on the net if you search. That was using the Kaiser as a modem which gets up to 1.8Mbps on H. At home on ADSL I get about 400kBps so faster but not noticeable so when browsing just when downloading files..
So basically for the best browsing or modeming (is that a word?) using the HD you'll want to see H at the top of the screen and 2 or more bars on the signal strength thingy, but it's still quite useable with G and 2 or more bars of strength.
Hope that helps, and apologies if the info is not 100% exact I was trying to make it as simple as possible.
I'm a simple kinda guy lol
Explains it perfectly. So as long as i get the H in the corner (which i get with my C905 with 100% signal strength, i should be fine with either the Touch HD or iPhone 3g? No real difference apart from signal strength?
Basically (nice and simple for me, lol) HSDPA is HSDPA, all the same, it's either supported or not, as long as your phone says HSDPA and you got the signal, its all the same?
It's confusing, as i use my phone as a modem ALL the time, rather than using wifi or any other internet... lol. 10GB a month limit suits me fine
remember
MB== mega byte
Mb == mega bit
1 bytes is 8 bit
transfer speed measured directly in a browser is mostly in MB
aye,
I currently download at speeds of about 200kB per second. Thats bytes. So hoping the HTC matches that. Also hope the iphone will be the same if i dont like my touch hd
Haaaiiiii everybody!
Firstly, what a spectacular device. It's gorgeous, the screen is awesome, the performance is great (huge improvement over my last handset (tytn II) - not that i didn't love it like my own child mind), and love the sense UI wrapper thingy for winmo.
I bought the phone from mobiles.co.uk (is this just carephone warehouse? The invoice i got just looks like the ones you get from the shop itself) and i'm guessing it's the stock rom/unlocked, since i'm on t-mobile (UK) and i have the youtube app, co-pilot etc. And it asked me to set the network preset myself when i first turned it on.
My question is related to reception/signal strength. How are you all finding it? I've moved from orange to t-mobile, so i did expect to experience a slight reduction in the quality of coverage - perhaps simply because the urban folklore is that orange have the best coverage. However, it seems to be depressingly poor. My orange handset is pretty much 3 or more bars of HSDPA everywhere in my house. By comparison, the new HD2 is mostly just G (GPRS), very ocasionally 3G or H, and only ever 1 or 2 bars of whatever bandwidth it settles on.
Moreover, it seems to fluctuate strangely. My mental model for mobile signal strength - informed entirely by experience - is that it's related almost entirely to where you're stood. Once you find a decent spot, it tends to remain pretty consistent. However, sometimes with the leo, I'll stick it down on my desk and leave it for a few minutes, in which time it'll build up to perhaps 2 bars of 3G, but as soon as i pick it up, it tends to decrease gradually back down to 1 or 2 bars of G.
According to the t-mobile site i'm in a "Good" signal area for both 2 and 3g - i live near a big town (bolton), not out in the sticks. So i am somewhat disappointed so far. Is there any possibility i have a dodgy handset? or perhaps is this an issue with the radio part of the software install? Can i expect it to get better with future radio releases?
All this is indoors, but i did have a wander around outside for a few minutes earlier today, and the best i could get it up to was 2 bars of 3g.
A friend of mine also has t-mobile, and told me he seems to remember getting pretty good signal at my house, so i'm getting him to bring his android HTC (touch maybe?) round later so we can swap sims about and compare like with like. I'll have a better idea of what's going on then. I'm also aware that orange and t-mobile are almost certainly going to be merging rather soon, and they expect their networks to be one as of next summer, so i'll hopefully be back with my old coverage then, although this is a long time to wait. On a similar note, another reason this is worse than expected, is that i was under the impression t-mobile had more or less completed merging their 3g network with 3, which has the best 3g coverage in the country. Anyone aware of the status of this project? is it behind schedule?
Cheers for taking the time to read this all!
Simon
One other thing i forgot to mention, is that in some cases, it tries to switch between networks so frequently that web-browsing or any other data task is completely impossible. Last night i was lying in bed attempting to surf the web, and it kept changing between 1 bar of H, then dropping down to 0, then changing to 1 bar of 3g, then changing back to H. It was doing this every few seconds at one point.
I dont know where you got the idea that urban folklore says Orange has best network coverage! They are shockingly bad imo...
I actually ended up in a legal battle with Orange due to their extremely bad service/coverage... they were claiming around £70,000 pounds from me/my company after we refused to pay due to MANY shortcomings. Long story short.... i/we won. They didnt get a penny and we got to keep all of our hardware also.
T-Mobile have an extremely fast HSDPA network but again i find their overall coverage to be less then satisfactory.
I am under the impression that both T-Mobile and Orange use higher frequencies in their network and this results in their signals being alot worse at penetrating walls etc when compared to Vodafone and O2. Perhaps more knowledgable peeps could confirm this?
Anyway... back on point... with my HD2 (using Vodafone SIM) i am getting coverage in areas where previously no one on any network got a signal. In one particular restaurant i frequent... everyone else on my table had no coverage what so ever yet i was sitting there browsing the internet.
One other thing to note that may help you with your situation... the antenna for the HD2 is situated at the BOTTOM of the device. Other users have reported fluctuating signals when holding the dvice in their hand although i have no such experience myself.
Audio Oblivion said:
I dont know where you got the idea that urban folklore says Orange has best network coverage! They are shockingly bad imo...
I actually ended up in a legal battle with Orange due to their extremely bad service/coverage... they were claiming around £70,000 pounds from me/my company after we refused to pay due to MANY shortcomings. Long story short.... i/we won. They didnt get a penny and we got to keep all of our hardware also.
T-Mobile have an extremely fast HSDPA network but again i find their overall coverage to be less then satisfactory.
I am under the impression that both T-Mobile and Orange use higher frequencies in their network and this results in their signals being alot worse at penetrating walls etc when compared to Vodafone and O2. Perhaps more knowledgable peeps could confirm this?
Anyway... back on point... with my HD2 (using Vodafone SIM) i am getting coverage in areas where previously no one on any network got a signal. In one particular restaurant i frequent... everyone else on my table had no coverage what so ever yet i was sitting there browsing the internet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Audio Oblivion said:
One other thing to note that may help you with your situation... the antenna for the HD2 is situated at the BOTTOM of the device. Other users have reported fluctuating signals when holding the dvice in their hand although i have no such experience myself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the response! Interesting story about orange there. I think urban folklore is one of those things that varies from one urban environment to the next. Needless to say, orange has always been pretty strong for me here at home, so i am slightly disappointed with the performance of T-Mobile so far. I'll get my friend down here with his handset and see what the comparison is like, and i'll bear that antenna tip in mind!
I was considering vodafone, but their 3g coverage didn't seem to be as expansive as t-mobiles. Who knows, perhaps they'd have been as bad in my area if not worse? Another thing that swung me in the direction of t-mobile was the data packages. The guy at vodafone told me they offered no increased usage packages for mobiles. Whereas with t-mobile, for an extra fiver a month, i can - at any time, and for any number of months at a time - upgrade from 1gb fair usage to 3. And they will NEVER charge me for going over anyway, just cap bandwidth.
EDIT: forgot to mention the indoors thing. Yeah i'm a physicist by trade, so it did occur to me that operating frequency could be to blame for poor coverage in doors.
I'm waiting for my phone to arrive tomorrow (fingers crossed) so I can't comment on that, but I live in Atherton (which is just down the road for everyone else). My house and around my street is bad for all mobile reception. Currently I am on vodafone with a i900. If I leave my phone on the table I will get 2 bars but when I pick it up it usually disappears all together. I had a HTC Diamond for a day on Orange and that was worse. My friends are on O2 and they seem to get ok signal here, and a few years ago I was on Three which gave me the best signal in my house but was generally worse elsewhere.
I have an old Nokia as a works phone on Orange and that continually out performs my omnia for signal strength.
I was hoping the signal strength in this phone would be good. After flashing my radio in my Omnia many times it made no difference and I did not know the annettene on this was at the bottom of the phone (just like the Omnia). It seems strange to do this.
I can't comment on T-Mobile's coverage (although I did leave Orange a few years ago because of their shocking coverage) but I get generally excellent reception on 3 here in London. Unfortunately, the only place where the reception is bad is at one of the offices that I spend half my week at but 3 have marked that as a network blackspot on their website
If it helps, someone at another site I work at was amazed that I am able to make phone calls standing in the central stairwell of the building which is in the City. He can barely make a call when standing right next to the windows but he's using an iPhone on O2
I have seen no difference in indicated signal strength between my HD and my new HD2. However, what is clear is that the phone sound quality is better on this HD2 - even for the same location and same signal strength - something that is easy to judge at home.
I would guess your issue is to do with the T-Mobile strength in your house, versus the old Orange network signal, rather than the handset. When you do a comparison with your friends handset on T-Mobile do not go only by the indicated signal strength on the handset. It would be worth looking at the band switching issue by direct comparison and also to measure the actual download speed when data connected.
Regarding your H (HSDPA) and 3G switching - I think that you will find that HSDPA only kicks in when you actually have data being exchanged (actual exchange not demand). On all of my recent devices the H only shows when (for instance) a web page is actually in the process of downloading - what you report is not strictly band switching. However, some people do see performence issues when the device keeps truly switching bands (2G/G, and E, to 3G/H). Although a pain some find it better to force the device into a particular band to avoid such an issue - but there is always a consequent possibility of loosing all signal.
I'll be interested to hear how the comparison goes.
chris_lyon82 said:
I'm waiting for my phone to arrive tomorrow (fingers crossed) so I can't comment on that, but I live in Atherton (which is just down the road for everyone else). My house and around my street is bad for all mobile reception. Currently I am on vodafone with a i900. If I leave my phone on the table I will get 2 bars but when I pick it up it usually disappears all together. I had a HTC Diamond for a day on Orange and that was worse. My friends are on O2 and they seem to get ok signal here, and a few years ago I was on Three which gave me the best signal in my house but was generally worse elsewhere.
I have an old Nokia as a works phone on Orange and that continually out performs my omnia for signal strength.
I was hoping the signal strength in this phone would be good. After flashing my radio in my Omnia many times it made no difference and I did not know the annettene on this was at the bottom of the phone (just like the Omnia). It seems strange to do this.
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Click to collapse
Funnily enough, my phone mistakenly thought i was in atherton the other day - gps indoors being the cause. Interested to hear how you get on when the phone arrives.
jakem said:
I can't comment on T-Mobile's coverage (although I did leave Orange a few years ago because of their shocking coverage) but I get generally excellent reception on 3 here in London. Unfortunately, the only place where the reception is bad is at one of the offices that I spend half my week at but 3 have marked that as a network blackspot on their website
If it helps, someone at another site I work at was amazed that I am able to make phone calls standing in the central stairwell of the building which is in the City. He can barely make a call when standing right next to the windows but he's using an iPhone on O2
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Click to collapse
I think it's probably just a case of orange having better reception around my local area than t-mobile unfortunately. All this said, it's not too much of a bother, since obviously i can just use the wireless network for data access whilst at home. Not really gone out and about with the phone yet as i'm waiting for my number to port across.
tony.wheeler said:
I have seen no difference in indicated signal strength between my HD and my new HD2. However, what is clear is that the phone sound quality is better on this HD2 - even for the same location and same signal strength - something that is easy to judge at home.
I would guess your issue is to do with the T-Mobile strength in your house, versus the old Orange network signal, rather than the handset. When you do a comparison with your friends handset on T-Mobile do not go only by the indicated signal strength on the handset. It would be worth looking at the band switching issue by direct comparison and also to measure the actual download speed when data connected.
Regarding your H (HSDPA) and 3G switching - I think that you will find that HSDPA only kicks in when you actually have data being exchanged (actual exchange not demand). On all of my recent devices the H only shows when (for instance) a web page is actually in the process of downloading - what you report is not strictly band switching. However, some people do see performence issues when the device keeps truly switching bands (2G/G, and E, to 3G/H). Although a pain some find it better to force the device into a particular band to avoid such an issue - but there is always a consequent possibility of loosing all signal.
I'll be interested to hear how the comparison goes.
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Click to collapse
Interesting - thanks for the info! Yeah i'm leaning towards just relatively poor T-M reception locally as the explanation now myself. I'll bear those tips in mind when testing. My plan was to choose a location in the house where i know my own phone will only maintain something relatively poor, like a single bar on the GPRS band. Then leave the phones side by side in this location and see what they both settle down to. Then swap sim cards around - if they are different - and repeat. Are conventional bandwidth testing sites appropriate for mobiles? or do they involve the transfer of comparatively large amounts of data? Is there an alternative you can suggest if so?
Ah perhaps that's a winmo6.5 difference? I know on my old kaiser, the H is there all the time, even when i've used kaiser tweak to disable the internet/data connection. By that i mean the large H, as opposed to the small letter which appears above the signal bar when the data connection has actually been established. I have wondered why modern phones differentiate between H and 3G, since we're told they are, in reality, the same band. Haven't most providers just upgraded all their 3g transmitters? I'd have thought phones would have always believed themselves to be connected to "H" - in 3g zones - and it would simply be a case of signal determining the sort of bandwidth which can be sustained.
Not sure when i'll get chance to do the test, but i will post back in this thread once it's completed!
Hi,
I know it's an obvious statement but I would imagine it's just down to location. I live in South London, have an HD2 on T-Mobile and get pretty much consistent 3G/HSDPA coverage throughout the house. Downloads are quick and email and weather syncing very prompt.
I've had contracts with pretty much all major service providers and I must say that T-Mobile probably has the best coverage of them all along with '3'...
Ok, so the friend who's also on t-mobile popped round this evening. Didn't have time to do any testing in my own home, as we had an errand to run. However, during the journey i had the phones side by side to make a direct comparison, and also had time to do this briefly once we'd arrived at our destination. No time for bandwidth comparisons yet - just looking at indicated signal strength and band. Important to note that his handset is a G1, running android, so as indicated before, comparing actual "bars" of signal is perhaps somewhat arbitrary and fruitless - who knows what differences there are between the way microsoft and google calculate signal strength.
First thing to note is the H/3G indicator issue. One of the previous posters does indeed seem to have it quite right in saying that 3G only changes to an H whilst a transfer is actually in progress. My handset does sometimes seem to flick from 3g to H whilst i'm not directly making data calls, but i imagine this is some auto sync in the background, either from the weather app, or the facebook app, or the facebook-linked contacts. Whilst browsing, it says 3G all the time, until a link is clicked, in which case it changes to H for the time it takes the page to load, then back to 3G. Not sure if this is just a change in winmo from the last version i had to this or, or an HTC customisation.
In terms of signal/banding the phones were more or less the same, with a couple of notable exceptions. Firstly, at one point during the 30 minute journey, my phone had switched to a full GPRS signal, whereas his was still on 3g, with a fairly weak signal (1 bar). This lasted for about 30 seconds at 30mph, and then the HD2 went back up to 3G. I wouldn't read anything into this, as the two platforms no doubt have totally different strategies when it comes to maintaining network connections and the criteria for switching up to a higher band etc.
The only other interesting occurrence was after we'd arrived. Sat side by side on the couch, my phone was reading 3g with 1 bar of signal strength, occasionally 2, whereas his was a pretty consistent 3. Outside the building we were both more or less full signal. Now, i'm not sure whether we can compare these reported signal levels - as i said above i'd have thought each platform did it a different way, unless there's some standard they all have to conform to. Also, i opened up opera to check something offline, and occasionally my connection dropped down to zero bars. However, this did not disrupt browsing. Didn't even seem to slow it down. Still read H when loading pages, and it was still fast and smooth, and at now point did it drop to GPRS or lose a connection entirely. Interesting because on my old kaiser, zero bars was quickly followed by the searching for connection graphic. In other words, nothing would work with zero signal. Now, i'm not sure whether the signal strength thingy is just calibrated differently on the HD2 (maybe 0 is the new 1) or perhaps the software does a better job these days of maintaining a connection - who knows.
However, only thing to report so far is that indoors, in this particular location anyway, the HD2 seemed to be reading a lower signal on it's indicator than the G1 IF the two can be compared as directly as this.
All pretty qualitative so far, so i'm going to have a go at some bandwidth tests and band comparisons in the more challenging areas of my house when he's next over.
gargon01 said:
Hi,
I know it's an obvious statement but I would imagine it's just down to location. I live in South London, have an HD2 on T-Mobile and get pretty much consistent 3G/HSDPA coverage throughout the house. Downloads are quick and email and weather syncing very prompt.
I've had contracts with pretty much all major service providers and I must say that T-Mobile probably has the best coverage of them all along with '3'...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that's certainly the primary factor at work here. What i was mainly concerned with, was whether the handset itself was under-performing - i.e. would other phones with t-mobile sims achieve better reception. Strangely, in the past i had always dismissed "signal" as a property of the network rather than the handset. Obviously though, with a few minutes thought, it's easy to see how the hardware is also an important factor. Not all receivers are born equal - even though i imagine these days it's pretty much a solved problem, from an engineering perspective - just like all software to interpret radio signals and hold connections isn't either.
I also went orange to t-mobile, and the speed is way faster. Just your luck really.
arfster said:
I also went orange to t-mobile, and the speed is way faster. Just your luck really.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not really too bad. But yeah, bad luck that really i can only use it for voice calls at home. Even half a mile closer to town though, it holds a full 3G signal, and i too have been really impressed with the speed whilst browsing - much faster than my old orange connection. In truth, it's not important that the data calling stuff works at home, since i have a wireless network. The same is true of all my friends, so i can just connect to theirs whilst over. The data calling is more important when out and about, and in this respect the phone seems to perform really well
So far no sms bug either, but i'm not taking this for granted.
Hmm, voice quality is nicer but reception's worse I reckon compared to my Touch HD with the 1.16 radio. Instead of getting "H" for HSDPA reception all the time at work it's flicking between 3G and H.
Also have data connection problems after roaming between 2G (GSM) and 3G (3G / HSDPA) - WM will refuse to connect online until I manually force Flight Mode on and off.
On the 1.48 rom. Looks like they have several bugs they need to fix in the Radio...
aussiebum said:
Hmm, voice quality is nicer but reception's worse I reckon compared to my Touch HD with the 1.16 radio. Instead of getting "H" for HSDPA reception all the time at work it's flicking between 3G and H.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see that also, but only when not using it. When it's connected, it sticks on H ......and it's really, really fast - quickest mobile data I've ever seen. Yesterday I'd switched off wifi by mistake, and didn't even realise.
_tangent said:
as indicated before, comparing actual "bars" of signal is perhaps somewhat arbitrary and fruitless
i'm not sure whether we can compare these reported signal levels - i'd have thought each platform did it a different way..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
An analysis I can't really fault. OK,I know my N95 8GB runs off symbian but quite often I'll attempt to place a call when its showing 3 or more bars of "signal strength" for it to drop the call instantly followed by an onscreen message of "network error" which equates to "I have no signal" as its suddenly not showing any signal at all even though my location hasn't changed at all (and yes,I am aware that the signal travels via a "cell" which may have suddenly had to cope with more traffic than its capable of and as a result dropped one of its clients-me!).
I too live in an area where reception is far from ideal (phone works best if I go outside and balance it on top of a fence post behind my shed lol ) and as I travel a lot (HGV driver) I need a network that's pretty robust and o2 seems to be the best I've used so far.
Have you tried using something like a broadband speed test (personally I'm not sure how accurate these are, as you tend to get quite a spread of results if you carry out repeated tests, although in theory you could average them out) such as this one here :http://www.broadbandspeedchecker.co.uk/ which may help you find a baseline for the actual performance on your current network?
Final point to make,again maybe no relation but might be worth mentioning..I play a lot with various sat-navs and have found in the past that it can be possible for one to effect the performance of another one by being in close proximity to it ie: one will get a full lock on sats but the other wont as device A seems to hog any signal and only when A is turned off will B be able to get a lock onto any sats...a situation like that may hamper the initial observations you've made so far over to you
_tangent said:
Funnily enough, my phone mistakenly thought i was in atherton the other day - gps indoors being the cause. Interested to hear how you get on when the phone arrives.
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Click to collapse
I've been playing around with my phone now for 2 days and I am happy as my signal is a lot better than my Omnia 1. I even managed to have a phone call yesterday whilst sat down on my couch I do still have the problem though that when I pick up my phone the signal will drop 1 or 2 bars down and if I hold it long enough it will loose signal all together. But like I say it is a lot better than my Omnia and this only happens in my house which has poor signal anyway.
Overall I'm happy with the signal strength so far. I'll see how I get on with it over the next couple of weeks though.
I have just upgraded from a diamond to HD2 and I have found the reception to be much worse in my house than the diamond. The phone keeps fluctuating from 4 bars to 1 and often looses the network all together. My diamond was pretty stable in the same places. Is it possible to tweak the performance or do we need to wait for the next ROM? I have updated to 1.48 UK ROM.
I know all Atrix users are having problems with slower data connections than using, say the iPhone 4. So I went ahead and did a quick video of, iPhone 4 and Verizon LG Vortex to show the speed difference. Clearly you can see that the Atrix is very slow in uploading, but overall was pretty close in download speeds with the iPhone 4. I have been averaging around 2.2 Mps down and .31 upload. Overall when using the Atrix phone to look up anything in the Market place or web browsing, and or using a app that requires data, it feels much faster overall. Could be that the Dual-Core is helping in this. My next video will be, comparing on the phone browsing and using data apps to compare.
Here is the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA72kfo856w
Ya shouldn't run both ATT phones at the same time.
zephxiii said:
Ya shouldn't run both ATT phones at the same time.
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Click to collapse
Why its a fair real work comparison that way. No one is going to be the only one running a connection at any give time.
Sent from my Delorean using a flux capacitor!
compumasta said:
Why its a fair real work comparison that way. No one is going to be the only one running a connection at any give time.
Sent from my Delorean using a flux capacitor!
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Click to collapse
If you are interested in testing the device's ultimate speed, you shouldn't be running the test at the same time right next to each other period. That causes channel interference (if on same carrier) which degrades performance, not to mention you are cutting available air interface resources in half in on the same channel/sector. That is not going to tell you jack **** about how the device performs (as far as above average potential) in comparison to another device on the same network...it only really shows how each device handles data in a crappy signal situation....interestingly ATT was better than VZW.
It has been demonstrated that the Atrix lacks HSUPA and will generally not perform as well as iPhone4 (or other HSUPA enabled device) until this problem is resolved.
zephxiii said:
If you are interested in testing the device's ultimate speed, you shouldn't be running the test at the same time right next to each other period. That causes channel interference (if on same carrier) which degrades performance, not to mention you are cutting available air interface resources in half in on the same channel/sector. That is not going to tell you jack **** about how the device performs (as far as above average potential) in comparison to another device on the same network...it only really shows how each device handles data in a crappy signal situation....interestingly ATT was better than VZW.
It has been demonstrated that the Atrix lacks HSUPA and will generally not perform as well as iPhone4 (or other HSUPA enabled device) until this problem is resolved.
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Click to collapse
I think you misunderstood what he's saying. In the real world, you could be standing next to someone else using an AT&T phone, so that interference isn't unexpected. How the device handles that kind of interference is absolutely relevant information.
Ririal said:
I think you misunderstood what he's saying. In the real world, you could be standing next to someone else using an AT&T phone, so that interference isn't unexpected. How the device handles that kind of interference is absolutely relevant information.
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In the real world, he probably isn't running a speedtest right when you are.
It's still pointless as if you are trying to compare device speeds on the network, you need to give them ideal conditions....otherwise you aren't comparing the devices really. This is obvious because it isn't showing the Atrix's crippled network interface.
zephxiii said:
In the real world, he probably isn't running a speedtest right when you are.
It's still pointless as if you are trying to compare device speeds on the network, you need to give them ideal conditions....otherwise you aren't comparing the devices really. This is obvious because it isn't showing the Atrix's crippled network interface.
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I'm not even sure I understand what you're arguing. Someone next to you is not using a data connection if they're not running a speedtest? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. The speed of the phone next to you is irrelevant. A phone pulling down 1000Mbps as opposed to 100Mbps won't magically decrease the surrounding signal. In modern devices, channel interference like that isn't really a problem anyway.
Ririal said:
I'm not even sure I understand what you're arguing. Someone next to you is not using a data connection if they're not running a speedtest? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. The speed of the phone next to you is irrelevant. A phone pulling down 1000Mbps as opposed to 100Mbps won't magically decrease the surrounding signal. In modern devices, channel interference like that isn't really a problem anyway.
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Based on that statement, it looks like you really don't understand how WCDMA (or CDMA based) networks work. Channel noise, noise floor, neighboring interference etc. plays a huge part in network performance. So yes, even though signal receive strength may be very good, performance can suffer from channel noise...and I see it all the time in cell overlap areas (I live in one even).
And when you have two devices like that operating right next to each other using the same ARFCN, especially if one is in the upload portion of the test, it's going to create additional noise that the other device is going to have to fight through....then throw on top that both devices are fighting for whatever is left of free resources on the site..which is basically cutting whatever is left in half....if they are on the same sector/channel.
zephxiii said:
Based on that statement, it looks like you really don't understand how WCDMA (or CDMA based) networks work. Channel noise, noise floor, neighboring interference etc. plays a huge part in network performance. So yes, even though signal receive strength may be very good, performance can suffer from channel noise...and I see it all the time in cell overlap areas (I live in one even).
And when you have two devices like that operating right next to each other using the same ARFCN, especially if one is in the upload portion of the test, it's going to create additional noise that the other device is going to have to fight through....then throw on top that both devices are fighting for whatever is left of free resources on the site..which is basically cutting whatever is left in half....if they are on the same sector/channel.
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I understand the theory, I've just never seen it affect a device in practice to any noticeable degree. I might get 3.15 down with no other devices nearby, and 3.14 down with several others running at once (GSM and CDMA devices).
Living in an area with several carriers fighting for the airways can impact performance, but again, I've never seen a big enough difference to care. Maybe you've just been in areas with outdated hardware or poor filtering. This is all from personal experience, however, and I live in Chicagoland where there is no shortage of service from any carrier.
I know some have said that having all 3 devices and running the test can affect the performances when running data. I was hoping to try to run a test that could show what would happen if you were out and happen to be close to other smartphones that might be accessing data.
I will post another video showing how the data performance is, by running the speed test one at a time. I did try that today, and I can say that whether I had all three running at the same time or run speed test one at a time, the speeds didn't not change much; maybe only .04 difference. So having all three running the speed test would only affect around .04 to .06 difference in download speed.
I will also do a test to compare the speed to open browser and going to websites.
Also when I was doing the speed test today with my Atrix, I was using it as a mobile hot spot to provide internet to my Samsung Galaxy Tab, and the download speeds on the Atrix was very good. I got around 3.0 Mbps down and .29 Mbps upload; which is very slow compared to my iPhone 4. Hopefully soon this will be fixed.
So in real world situations if others around me are using their phones/data I shouldn't judge how my phone performs based on that? Individual testing is fantastic, but I'm rarely the only person in the room with an AT&T smartphone so it's not practical. Everyday use throughout the day (speedtest app or not) is the only real way to judge data performance in my book.
Besides, the speedtest app can go from 1.2 to 3.4 to .08mbps in 3 consecutive tests. It's all over the place.
For browsing the Atrix should open pages quicker because the processor will help out along with the network speeds.
My GN3 is the best phone I've ever owned. It does everything I want except what it was originally built to do. I have the absolute worst service. If i flashed a new ROM would that improve the service? I know it did for my RAZR. Also the WIFI goes in and out constantly. Could a new ROM change that also? Any responses or recommendations would be great!
Thanks
BroadSword
The answer to your question sort of depends on info you didn't provide.
What I mean by that is that radio software NEVER changes raw RF signal strength.
Yeah, that's right - never. That is entirely a hardware/antenna thing.
It *can* change things that happen at the radio protocol level - things like tower selection, power output, modulation and coding selection, etc. And I suppose if there are bugs that cause intermittency, those could be due to software/firmware. So you need to distinguish between three different scenarios: (a) problems due simply to poor signal strength, (b) problems that happen even when the signal is strong, or (c) never observing strong signals even when in close proximity to the cell tower or WiFi router**
So... What are the signal strengths you observe (either cell or WiFi) when you have troubles? Report the values in "dBm", not "Signal Bars" - the latter means literally nothing.
And if you observe problems at -90 dBm, there might be nothing wrong with your device (there is very little "fade margin" above the noise floor and all devices will have problems due to weak signals). But if you see problems such as drop-outs when the signal strength is above (more positive) than -70 dBm, that could be either a hardware fault or a software bug.
If you never see signals above -75 dBm (Cell) or -45 dBm (WiFi in close proximity to the router), then you probably have a hardware problem and a ROM update won't change that.
So - your turn. What signal strengths are you seeing?
PS - on my Note3, the Cell signal strength reported in the Android settings app never seems to change so I conclude it isn't working (MJ7 ROM); I use the "RF Signal Tracker" app (Ken Hunt) for that. You can even drive around town and it will later plot on a map the observed signal strength values. That can be useful for determining if you just have weak signals at your home, or if they are weak everywhere. If you see the latter, you know you have a hardware problem.
Perversely, this app doesn't correctly report WiFi signal strengths on the N3 (it works OK on other Android devices I have); but you can use the "WiFi Analyzer" app (farproc) to observe WiFi signals in dBm.
FWIW, my Note 3 observes signals as strong as -35 dBm (1m from the router), and -51 dBm LTE (cell). It is possible that by driving around I might see even stronger cell signals; I haven't tried it yet in the 7 days I've had the N3.
HTH
** note that you could have problems with cell service/mobile data only, WiFi only, or problems with both if you are unlucky (they use separate radios and antennas).
I'm having issues as well. Never had a problem with the Note 2 , but the 3 likes to constantly drop out of 4G at home. It's odd because I've tested it against my old Droid Razr and they both get around the same signal (-106 dBm vs -105 dBm), however the Razr reliably holds the 4G signal and keeps a fairly consistent dBm reading, whereas the GN3 readings can get worse from time to time even in the same spot. I'm hoping it's software related and they'll fix it with a modem update... MJE didn't help me at all though.
Not to mention the poor battery life due to a low signal. I was very fortunate they turned on Band 4, otherwise I be looking at the same battery life I was getting with my iphone 5 around 6 to 12 hours.
I love my note 3, but the signal quality has me rethinking my decision to keep it.
@bodieism
Your principal trouble is very poor signal. (-105 dBm)
I mean, I get it that individuals aren't going move in order to improve their cell service, and the carrier is unlikely to install a new tower because of a single customer request about poor signal strength.
That only leaves a presumption that handset choice is a consumer option to "fix" a poor signal. (Or repeaters, but that's an expensive solution).
But I would caution that trying to make comparisons of "A vs. B" in areas with terrible reception is fraught with all sorts of methodology and interpretation problems. I can observe > 10 dBm signal strength changes due to orientation and "How I'm holding it" (LOL) changes alone while sitting in one spot on my couch. Imagine that I had an average signal level only 5 dBm above the noise floor - you shouldn't believe a handset comparison I made in that case unless I made it clear that I'd been exhaustive about test conditions.
Simply put, I wouldn't put much stock in undisciplined, anecdotal reports that come from fringe reception areas.
As you noted, the MJE update did nothing for you. But that's not a surprise - no amount of software is going to overcome lack of signal.
Maybe a complaint to Verizon might result in something measurable happening - squeaky wheel and all that. But you will be unlikely to get anything from them if you live in a rural or low population density area.
Any idea what this is saying. Looks like I'm connected to a tower that is over 6,000 miles away
Take a sec and hit thanks if I helped or if you're in a good mood!
bskarpa said:
Any idea what this is saying. Looks like I'm connected to a tower that is over 6,000 miles away
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That app doesn't have a complete tower database, so it just picks the geolocation info seemingly at random (or maybe one per continent). I don't think I have ever seen that app feature work for VZW towers; it might work for GSM networks tho.
I think it relies on public (crowd sourced) data for tower geolocation info, so that particular feature is probably only useful in metro areas and maybe not even then.
bftb0 said:
That app doesn't have a complete tower database, so it just picks the geolocation info seemingly at random (or maybe one per continent). I don't think I have ever seen that app feature work for VZW towers; it might work for GSM networks tho.
I think it relies on public (crowd sourced) data for tower geolocation info, so that particular feature so it is probably only useful in metro areas and maybe not even then.
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OK thanks bud. I know here around town by my daughter's school which is only like a mile or less away from my house I get awesome signal but here at the house its around -75db give or take.
I looked on the net to see what towers were around and it came back as (see the attachment) which is pretty interesting.
Take a sec and hit thanks if I helped or if you're in a good mood!
@bskarpa what Internet site did you use? (-75 dBm is a pretty decent signal btw)
That app says my tower is 6224 miles away in Croatia. Apparently tower numbers are not globally unique (as that record matches the observed tower # I have for my service)
bftb0 said:
As you noted, the MJE update did nothing for you. But that's not a surprise - no amount of software is going to overcome lack of signal.
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My Droid Razr, Note 2, and my GF's S3 all overcome the lack of signal with no problem at all. You'd think since Samsung can make 2 devices that can maintain a weak 4G signal that their newest phone could do the same, but apparently it can't, whether it be hardware or software related.
bftb0 said:
@bskarpa what Internet site did you use? (-75 dBm is a pretty decent signal btw)
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http://www.antennasearch.com/
Take a sec and hit thanks if I helped or if you're in a good mood!
bodieism said:
My Droid Razr, Note 2, and my GF's S3 all overcome the lack of signal with no problem at all. You'd think since Samsung can make 2 devices that can maintain a weak 4G signal that their newest phone could do the same, but apparently it can't, whether it be hardware or software related.
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I don't doubt at all that your description of your experience(s) are anything but truthful.
And I don't doubt that some handsets are better than others when it comes to raw RF signal strength. For instance, (older gear) the Samsung Galaxy Fascinate had simply horrid GPS reception at a time when handsets and GPS receivers from other OEM vendors (and far less expensive devices, I might add) were perfectly fine. You couldn't get a reliable lock inside a vehicle, and you could barely get one with a completely clear sky to the horizon in 360 degrees.
The thing is, Samsung isn't making the radio silicon nor the radio firmware; so in the case of the Note 3, if there is a different vendor using the same Qualcomm MSM8974/S800 SOC with better reception, that would probably imply that Samsung sucks at understanding antenna modeling or RF interconnect modeling... or they just don't care enough in their rush to get their devices to market.
The other thing to consider is that the decision space that a handset needs to operate in is pretty complicated, as there are both 4G and 3G bands available, variable block resource allocations, variable coding & modulation schemes, etc, and the ability to switch between them in agile fashion might mean that there is a lot of stuff going on thousands of times per second - while the little idiot light in the notification bar probably only gets updated on the order of once a second. I suppose it is feasible that in fringe LTE reception areas it might even be possible that reversion to 3G produces better bandwidth in some situations (neither LTE nor EVDO are "all-or-nothing" affairs when it comes to bandwidth). If that were indeed the case, the fact that "4G" didn't show up on the device's notification bar might not mean too much.
In any event, a better comparative measure of handset performance would be actual data transfer rates measured at the same (weak signal) locations throughout different times of the day (to avoid confusing a transient cell congestion or interference issue as being the fault of a specific handset being tested). Then we'd be looking at what is really important to folks in that situation - actual bandwidth achieved instead of an indicator light status. I think that would be pretty diagnostic.
cheers
bftb0 said:
The other thing to consider is that the decision space that a handset needs to operate in is pretty complicated, as there are both 4G and 3G bands available, variable block resource allocations, variable coding & modulation schemes, etc, and the ability to switch between them in agile fashion might mean that there is a lot of stuff going on thousands of times per second - while the little idiot light in the notification bar probably only gets updated on the order of once a second. I suppose it is feasible that in fringe LTE reception areas it might even be possible that reversion to 3G produces better bandwidth in some situations (neither LTE nor EVDO are "all-or-nothing" affairs when it comes to bandwidth). If that were indeed the case, the fact that "4G" didn't show up on the device's notification bar might not mean too much.
In any event, a better comparative measure of handset performance would be actual data transfer rates measured at the same (weak signal) locations throughout different times of the day (to avoid confusing a transient cell congestion or interference issue as being the fault of a specific handset being tested). Then we'd be looking at what is really important to folks in that situation - actual bandwidth achieved instead of an indicator light status. I think that would be pretty diagnostic.
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It's not really necessary. I've never had issues with the speed while the phone is in 4G at home. The problem comes from it constantly wanting to drop to 3G. The quality of my Netflix shows dropping is one of the things that tips me off to having been bumped to 3G. Lately I've been putting my sim card into the Razr while I'm home and turning on the wifi hotspot. That way I can just use wifi on the Note 3 to avoid the annoying 3G bumps and subsequent crappy Netflix resolution. While I suppose I could go through the trouble of testing the different handset speeds in the same location at different times of the day, I have a suspicion that the download speeds will be similar if they both happen to be in 4G during the test. In fact, I wouldn't even be surprised if the Note 3 is faster while in 4G.
You can chalk it up to any reason you want, but in any event, my Note 3 can't hold onto a weak 4G signal anywhere near as good as any of my previous phones.
bftb0 said:
@bskarpa what Internet site did you use? (-75 dBm is a pretty decent signal btw)
That app says my tower is 6224 miles away in Croatia. Apparently tower numbers are not globally unique (as that record matches the observed tower # I have for my service)
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The one in my screen shot is www.antennasearch.com, sorry so late, I just now saw this.
So being me ive done took my g2 apart To see how its built. Seeing as im right there with the antennas for the mobile radio, the wifi radio is the any way to make a mod to get better reception? Here at the house i have 0 to 1 bars signal but great lte speeds but where i work i have 2 to 5 bars but only get 3 g which all face it sprint has the meanest 3 g network may extend the wires out. More im pretty technical so it sounds like an expierment coming on i would apreciate any input on thiis one
TheMadScientist420 said:
So being me ive done took my g2 apart To see how its built. Seeing as im right there with the antennas for the mobile radio, the wifi radio is the any way to make a mod to get better reception? Here at the house i have 0 to 1 bars signal but great lte speeds but where i work i have 2 to 5 bars but only get 3 g which all face it sprint has the meanest 3 g network may extend the wires out. More im pretty technical so it sounds like an expierment coming on i would apreciate any input on thiis one
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interesting...
1.) an antenna with better gain than the one currently being used.
2.) Some type of signal amplifier between antenna and receiver with a filter to help cut out interference that may be amplified as well ( would also need an amp for transmitter as well )
With this one it would interesting if there would be a way to utilize the original hardware in the phone and via software, tweak it in order to push a stronger signal, as far as receiving goes not sure if that would be possible if there isn't some type of amp in there already. This may also raise issues though with starting to interfere with other mobile/wireless devices depending on how much the transmission signal was amplified.
3 Signal booster.
Probably the easiest route to go, simply acts like a tower, just on a smaller scale,
Well the antenna is in the back of the phone. Hypothetically the battery Cover. But what about a repeater but on a smaller scale of coarse. I built one to.do wifi in high school had about. 400 ft range though. Bu this was back in 02
That's basically what a signal booster Is doing for you. Completely external from the phone. Most use some type of directional antenna for comms back and forth with the tower, which feeds an amp. That amp has an Omni directional antenna on the backside in order to communicate with your device. Depending on what type of coverage you want(3g/lte) and what coverage area you are looking for depends on the price.
Sent from my LG-VS980 using xda app-developers app