Database Users

Memory question!!

So, I saved all this memory. But the Wizard still allocates memory 50/50 for storage and programs. I open more and more programs, working down towards 0 for program memory and the storage memory still stands at 30MB.
:?: I'm cornfused.

Microsoft changed this behavior at some point, and I'm not sure I understand why (maybe to stop support calls from people who changed the defaults?)
I'm hoping that there's a registry hack to enable changing the ratios. MemMaid shows a slider for it, but it snaps back to 50/50 instantly.

Pre- Windows Mobile 5 devices used volatile RAM for program memory *and* for storage memory. Consequently, a loss of power (e.g. totally drained battery) would cause anything the user installed or stored in the storage memory to be lost.
The memory in WM5 devices is different to in pre-WM5 devices.
WM5 devices use "Persistant Memory Storage".
Program memory is volatile RAM, like in a PC. If power is lost, the contents of the RAM are lost.
Storage memory is non-volatile flash ROM. If power is lost, no data is lost.

I use this reg tweak to stop windows from moving the slider. I now leave the slider at 3 mb on the storage side. Hope this helps!! LuXx
Never defragment Memory
This tweak will make sure your memory will never be fragmented, for optimal memory use.
HKCU\SOFTWARE\MICROSOFT\SHELL
Create an empty key with the name "NeverDorkMemory"

Note that the "NeverDorkMemory" key has no effect on WM5:
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/for...iew=next&sid=d2056f3326ea430b21236fd42702f402
For more info on memory on WM5, have a look here:
http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2006/03/16/552996.aspx

So trying to synthesize all of this...
So... if I understand this correctly... with WM5:
1. There are several kinds of internal memory:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it. Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
QUESTIONS:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)? Or is it somehow different?
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory? Or how does this work?
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others? Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
WM2003's memory was, in contrast, quite simple to understand. I am still struggling to figure out how to best make use of the available memory in WM5, although I really love the benefits of persistent storage (which go way beyond the "iPaq File Store" included on the 6315 which wasn't of tremendous use.)
THANKS for any insights.

Someone really smart...
Can some really smart person give me some insights on this?
wgary said:
So... if I understand this correctly... with WM5:
1. There are several kinds of internal memory:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it. Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
QUESTIONS:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)? Or is it somehow different?
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory? Or how does this work?
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others? Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
WM2003's memory was, in contrast, quite simple to understand. I am still struggling to figure out how to best make use of the available memory in WM5, although I really love the benefits of persistent storage (which go way beyond the "iPaq File Store" included on the 6315 which wasn't of tremendous use.)
THANKS for any insights.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
`

Re: So trying to synthesize all of this...
wgary said:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct
wgary said:
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is really the same section as the persistent memory - the difference is that this section is reserved and cannot be written to... it is truely read-only, unless you cook your own ROM and install that using a ROM installer (much like the AKU2 ROM update installer).
wgary said:
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nearly true. Only the bits that need to be in RAM get loaded into RAM - this does, obviously, include parts of the O/S, a good chunk of the Pocket Outlook services, the phone, and the majority of all drivers.
wgary said:
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
wgary said:
wgary said:
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct.
wgary said:
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This really depends. If you have an application that does not make use of heavy I/O but is a fairly large install, you could very well install it on the MiniSD card to save storage on the main device. Keep in mind that the main device storage memory is fairly low (really stupid slow, imho) and that it's best reserved for those applications that, due to programmer error, fail to work when installed on the MiniSD card.
wgary said:
Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you find you have enough space available on the main storage - then no, no point in installing to the MiniSD card.
wgary said:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above.
wgary said:
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
wgary said:
on which caches you are referring to. There's a tweak to put the browser cache on the MiniSD card, which I think is a fine thing to do. I don't think there's any way to move the Messaging database file to the MiniSD card, though.
wgary said:
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's the same persistent flash memory, just allocated to be the ROM part. It's not really ROM, as it can be reflashed using another ROM. The interchangeable use of "ROM" is really a bit confusing - think of the ROMs (both O/S as in AKU2 and Extended Rom) as being the Firmware instead.
wgary said:
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It depends on the ROM/Extended ROM you're working with. Overall, it's a fixed portion - I don't recall the exact number. Depending on the ROM - e.g. Orange vs T-Mobile vs Qtek, there may be a bit of free space left that they didn't fill. Or, otherwise, the Extended ROM may contain applications that you have no use for, and you oculd remove those from the Extended ROM before reflashing. But just having this empty space or removing these applications you won't use won't free up any space for your own applications/files/etc.
What some people do, however, is to place their application(s) of choice in the Extended ROM instead. So, for example, say you don't want the anti-virus thing in the iMate ROM, but you're a regular user of Total Commander. You could replace the anti-virus thing with Total Commander in the Extended ROM (theoretically - no idea if it would fit.. just an example), and in that way 'save' space for other applications/files by not having to install Total Commander in the regular storage space.
wgary said:
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think there's an easy way, no...
wgary said:
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above... you wouldn't really place the CABs in there (if you just want them easily available for re-installation after a hard reset, place them on your MiniSD card instead), but the full programs.
wgary said:
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's independent of the RAM bank, but otherwise the same for the regular storage.
wgary said:
Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not with any manner of easy a la a slider.
I think that overall, all of the above questions really just stem from one thing: we need more RAM and more storage space on these devices. I don't know why we're still limited to 64MB/128MB (half of which is the ROM/ExtROM) when memory is, quite frankly, cheap. I understand that with the MiniSD Card you can easily expand the storage space - but unfortunately there are tons of programmers out there who apparently code in such a way that their programs fail to run, or simply become buggy, when placed there. Some of this may be WM5's fault*, but I fail to see how for the majority of applications.
( * e.g. the SD card driver being loaded too late, so that any StartUp program relying on files on the SD card fails. This is really an issue of MS/OEMs wanting to make the device look faster to boot by presenting the OS before all drivers are done loading. )
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Hi,
this is my first post on this forum so probably it will be a little newb style but what the heck, I can't find the answer to my question so I will dig this topic out
ZeBoxx said:
wgary said:
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This really depends. If you have an application that does not make use of heavy I/O but is a fairly large install, you could very well install it on the MiniSD card to save storage on the main device. Keep in mind that the main device storage memory is fairly low (really stupid slow, imho) and that it's best reserved for those applications that, due to programmer error, fail to work when installed on the MiniSD card.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1) I believe it still remains true? I mean I'm using HTC Tytn and microSD ultra II card and still the internal flash memory is faster than the removable flash right? So until I got some space left on the internal memory for better performance I should install apps right there? Are there some recommendations to not fullfil this memory (ie. always leave 10% space on it)?
2) What about battery drain? Are there any significant differences in that aspect between those 2 memories?

Adjusting storage memory and program memory

Hi, is there a way to adjust the memory usage for the program, like adjust the storage and give it to program. Not like xda, the prophet does have a slider for the memory but could not be adjusted. Is there anyway how to go over this ?

Prophet, as well as many new WM5 devices have (physically) separate program and storage memories. And thus there is no built in way to adjust the amounts of the two.

The Prophet has a 64MB Ram and a 128MB Flash Size with a storage size of 42.55. Where did the 44.01 MB program came from? Is there a way to increase the MB size for the program? Because I believe that even though you can install several program using the storage, a portion of the program memory gets filled up until at the critical level, which will later play an important part once you start running a program which needs a higher memory. Any remedy to this?

The 64MB RAM is what I think should be called 'box figure'. It's what's printed on the box.
In reality you get 50+ actual RAM at leas 10 of which go to various OS functions and the rest is left for running programs to use.
Under WM5 non of it is used for files, but when you run programs, even built-in ones there are sometimes memory leaks which means that even though you closed the program some of the memory (sometimes more them 1MB) remains occupied.
The only known way to fully reclaim memory is to soft reset the device. I do it on my Jamin once a week when I am left with 12-10MB free.
Unfortunately, there is no way to add RAM to device.

Should/can I move apps to storage card?

Hi
I have installed a few programs on my TD2 - all to device rather than storage card - and am getting a little concerned that performance may be suffering. With my prevous device I used SK Tools to move apps to the card - but I'm not 100% clear whether this is good practice.
With nothing running, Settings reports 223.10 MB free for storage (75.29 in use) and 75.87 MD free for programs (108 in use). I have installed things like Sprite Backup and Terminator, ActivePrint, SPB FreeCell, MyLife Organized PocketPC Edition, Resco Sudoku Touch and Gaz TD2 Tools.
Really grateful for any advice.
Thanks

I don't see why installing programs to the device memory should cause performance to suffer? It's only available RAM memory which affects performance, and this remains the same whether you instal to the device or to the card. It's when you open, and leave open, several programs at once that performance suffers.
The nice thing about modern phones is the amount of internal storage, which is plenty for masses of programs. The only performance issue you may have is when downloading large files with Internet Explorer, as I think it uses internal storage as temporary space for the file being downloaded, even if you tell it to save to the memory card. I don't think Opera does this though.
Installing programs to the card means you can't "hot-swap" it unless you're absolutely sure all the programs are closed.

In addition to the above internal phone mem is faster than mem card so performance takes a hit if you use the card.
And you run the risk of more freezes and resets being needed.
It is my firm belief that the use of internal mem avoids a lot of hassles all round by making the phone more stable.
And I almost forgot that internal mem uses less battery power than mem cards.

Easy answer...
Use removable storage for data, on-board storage for apps.
If you have too many apps for on-board storage, consider a slimmer ROM for your phone. Remember on-board storage also works as RAM for your apps, so the more you have available, the more apps you can run.

DeathJester said:
Use removable storage for data, on-board storage for apps.
If you have too many apps for on-board storage, consider a slimmer ROM for your phone. Remember on-board storage also works as RAM for your apps, so the more you have available, the more apps you can run.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd check on that last statement if I were you!
The Topaz has 3 memory areas.
One for flashed ROM.
One for operating RAM.
AND one for storage.
It makes no difference how much you put in storage RAM.
It does make a difference how many apps are running at any one time in operating RAM.
A slimmer ROM image won't make much difference either.
How much of that ROM image is unnecessarily floating around in operating RAM at any one time will make a difference.
Go to settings/system/device information/hardware inforamation
I currently show
RAM size
288 MB
Flash memory size
512 MB
Storage size
342.47 MB
That's a lot of free storage available onboard that is just waiting to be used.
If you go into settings/system/memory you will find storage and program memory values displayed.
Install an app and the in use value of storage memory goes up.
Run an app and the in use value of program memory goes up.
Showing that they are two quite separate physical areas running "independantly" of each other.

Thanks!
Thanks for the helpful responses - much appreciated.
Andrew

werdna72 said:
Thanks for the helpful responses - much appreciated.
Andrew
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your welcome to any help we can give.

resizing Program memory to increase Storage memory

After installing many apps in main phone memory, the Storage memory (left side on settings > memory) shrinks to less than 40MB, while plenty (and unused) Program memory is there (195MB) (right side)
Is there a way to resize these 2 main phone memories to increase efficiency?
Thanks
Saulo

I remember that in previous version on WM there was a slider to move memory from one side to another.
But this was lost here in WM 6.5.5...

are there commercial or free applications capable to do the job? Ramdisk?
It mus be working on wm 6.5.5
Thanks and waiting

what you are remembering is a time when the memory used was totally different type to what we have now.
so no is the answer, there's no way of doing it.
Uninstall some of your apps, and reinstall them to storage card, that will free up some memory, as will clearing the caches in PIE and Opera (as well as moving the cache to the storage card for opera).

Thanks Fards
Sorry to hear that...but are you aware what ihibit, prevents the memory from being resizable?
Thanks
Saulo

saulo866 said:
Thanks Fards
Sorry to hear that...but are you aware what ihibit, prevents the memory from being resizable?
Thanks
Saulo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
program and system memory used to be the same memory, and you could decide how much of it was for program and how much for system. When the phone ran out of battery, it would cause a hard reset, and all your data would be lost.
Now we have a phone with two different types of memory. If your battery dies you do NOT lose your data, because the system memory is flash memory, whilst the program memory is true RAM that is cleared when you restart.
Think of your PC, you have a hard disk, and RAM, and you cannot resize the hard disk to use RAM as more hard disk space.

Yes. That's true but the main reason was that the whole thing was like RAM at these times... and we were losing everything when the battery was running out of power.
Some PDA's like HP for instance was delivered with backup batteries to prevent such complete loss and give extra time.
As from WM5.0 if my memory is good, the resident memory came up at last, to make things better.
Today, we have storage RAM which acts exactly like the hard disk of a PC and the program memory which acts exactly like the RAM of our PCs. The physical difference is the main reason that you can not slide anything between storage and RAM.
The suggestion for installing apps on SDcard can save you a big amount of storage RAM indeed. But do not forget the impact on speed: apps will load (and exit) slower on SD card. Try and see.
saulo866 said:
I remember that in previous version on WM there was a slider to move memory from one side to another.
But this was lost here in WM 6.5.5...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Yes G3K
I am loading on SD card ONLY those programs which I use rarely and in which speed is not an issue. But the more speed-demanding applications I prefer to locate on RAM, since much faster...
Thanks for your insights
Saulo

Memory: Storage vs Program

Here's a problem I don't understand:
How are most ppl able to install so many things on their HD2 and not use up memory space?
So my HD2 has a total of 193.43MB of Storage and 457.01MB of Program.
When I install games and programs and apps, I install them on the device. This takes up "Storage" memory.
I guess, what is the difference? And how can I choose between where (On device or micro) to install each type of game, apps, program?
1) What uses Program memory? What uses Storage memory?
2) If I install a game on the microSD, and do a flash to a new ROM, will I have to re-install the game on the microSD again?

You should keep a basic strategy:
Whatever prog belongs to the operating system (like HTCSense-hacks, GUIs etc.) or should work without storage card:
Install it to the main memory
Whatever prog is not operating system critical (games, browsers, navi-software, apps, photos, videos etc.):
Install it on the SD-Card (the setup in 99% allows You to choose between main memory and Storage Card). It will eat up little by little Your RAM (by adding values in the registry, icons regs in the startup-menu), but this might centuries ´till RAM is full.
Move Cashes to SD-card as described in
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=583638
and try to keep main data memory above 50 MB.
Maybe installing progs to the SD-Card might make progs a litlle bit slower (not much though) but this way You can install hundreds of apps on Your HD2 (and never forget: before installing a new prog make a full backup of the main memory e.g. with SPB-Backup and if the new prog crashes Your device restore. Also for this it is ALWAYS better to install a new app to SD-Card instead main mem).

lemonspeakers said:
Here's a problem I don't understand:
How are most ppl able to install so many things on their HD2 and not use up memory space?
So my HD2 has a total of 193.43MB of Storage and 457.01MB of Program.
When I install games and programs and apps, I install them on the device. This takes up "Storage" memory.
I guess, what is the difference? And how can I choose between where (On device or micro) to install each type of game, apps, program?
1) What uses Program memory? What uses Storage memory?
2) If I install a game on the microSD, and do a flash to a new ROM, will I have to re-install the game on the microSD again?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Program memory is RAM that is used by the operating system when executing programs.
Storage memory is where apps are installed and are then available through your icon links.
Calls are made from ROM to storage and then executed in RAM.
There are a number of issues to bear in mind when deciding where to install apps.
Installing to mem card results in slower operation of the app.
Installing to mem card results in higher power usage and therefore drains the battery quicker.
Installing to mem card can result in operating system freezes and overall slowdowns.
Installing to mem card will establish app links with the operating system that won't necessarily be usable if you flash other OS ROMs. Fresh reinstallation of apps should always be done after a flash of any new ROM anyway to keep things clean and running smoothly and reduce operational glitches to a minimum.
Any backup and restore software should only be used when restoring to the same
ROM and never across a ROM change. Sync all items you can before and resync afterwards.
Only install to mem card those apps that force you to or when you have run out of main storage and similarly have no choice.
If you know you are going to install masses of apps from the outset then as had been mentioned install operating system critical apps to main mem and the rest as you can using mem card last.
This is all good practice and good housekeeping.

Great Post !
Great thread !!!
I always wonder if Storage and program memory can be modified.
It was a long long long time ago, it was possible with my palm pilot...
Is there an application for monitoring RAM usage ?
I have about 190 Mo of free Ram and 39 Mo of free program memory.

woaloo said:
Great thread !!!
I always wonder if Storage and program memory can be modified.
It was a long long long time ago, it was possible with my palm pilot...
Is there an application for monitoring RAM usage ?
I have about 190 Mo of free Ram and 39 Mo of free program memory.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is no real reason to monitor any mem usage unless you operate in a memory hungry fashion. And that will only occur with the install of numerous apps. If you run out of storage mem then that's the time to do something about it and if that doesn't happen, then don't worry about it because your phone won't know the difference.