Related
FIRST OF ALL I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE IF U BRICK UR PHONE
I am going to make android 4.2 port for note 1 and i need beta testers.
will port from a nexus device and i need a person who is very good in updater-script (edify) editting
beta testers and updater-script editors can PM me if u want to join my porting team.
AND READ FIRST LINE TWICE BEFORE PMing ME
AND U GUYS WANT TABLET MODE or MOBILE Mode?
Say in the poll
i know the OP is not that organised as i dont have time now . will organize it later
and i am not joking will port rom
wtf ... do u think thats smart after your tw rom fail ?
thats why i ask for beta tester and pls read first line of op
.......
Ok my advice for users is stay away to avoid bricks.
If you cant even make a tw ROM work then how on earth are you going to support this and ensure users that its a safe ROM ?
Robbie Hood said:
.......
Ok my advice for users is stay away to avoid bricks.
If you cant even make a tw ROM work then how on earth are you going to support this and ensure users that its a safe ROM ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude First i will port rom without kernel .then will ask a kernel dev to make kernel.
then will give to a updater-script specialist only then i will give to beta-tester
after that i will give it for base rom for major devs
only then i will post rom here for public usage
You ve a good intention and a big heart, but pls don't
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
Denied.
nuramohammed26 said:
You ve a good intention and a big heart, but pls don't
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DONT What?
mithun46 said:
Dude First i will port rom without kernel .then will ask a kernel dev to make kernel.
then will give to a updater-script specialist only then i will give to beta-tester
after that i will give it for base rom for major devs
only then i will post rom here for public usage
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At what stage is your "development" already?
mithun46 said:
DONT What?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dont do this
---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------
mithun46 said:
Dude First i will port rom without kernel .then will ask a kernel dev to make kernel.
then will give to a updater-script specialist only then i will give to beta-tester
after that i will give it for base rom for major devs
only then i will post rom here for public usage
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol you make me laugh a little kid
why dont you build a rom for yourself and test it and learn before you are going to post ANYTHING ?
You are really makin a fool out of yourself like this in my oppinion, no pun intended but thats my oppinion after the tw ROM fail.
I started with simple theming 3 years ago to learn the basics and start from the bottom up .
My first theme was Goldielicious RED with GoldieKing
Only then i went ahead and tried modifying some codes and came up with my first extended powermenu on ggb which was a lot more work then these powermenus we have now .
After i was convinced i had all the basics and understood how every little bit in the ROM worked and iterracted with eachother , then i started building my ROMs..
You dont use users as guinnea pigs :silly:
AA1973 said:
At what stage is your "development" already?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was thinking same thing.
Dude First i will port rom without kernel .then will ask a kernel dev to make kernel.
then will give to a updater-script specialist only then i will give to beta-tester
after that i will give it for base rom for major devs
only then i will post rom here for public usage
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds to me like your gonna just get other people to make it, yet take all the credit yourself.
Not really liking the idea of this
Robbie Hood said:
dont do this
---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------
lol you make me laugh a little kid
why dont you build a rom for yourself and test it and learn before you are going to post ANYTHING ?
You are really makin a fool out of yourself like this in my oppinion, no pun intended but thats my oppinion after the tw ROM fail.
I started with simple theming 3 years ago to learn the basics and start from the bottom up .
My first theme was Goldielicious RED with GoldieKing
Only then i went ahead and tried modifying some codes and came up with my first extended powermenu on ggb which was a lot more work then these powermenus we have now .
After i was convinced i had all the basics and understood how every little bit in the ROM worked and iterracted with eachother , then i started building my ROMs..
You dont use users as guinnea pigs :silly:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK I AM GOING TO STOP DEVELOPING BCOZ NO ONE SUPPORT ME IN THIS > ARE U GUYS HAPPY NOW!
WILL MAKE SMALL MODS AND I WILL USE ON MY PHONE AND I WILL LEARN
MOds ARE FREE TO CLOSE THIS THREAD AND IF Robbie Hood IS STILL SAD THEN MODS BAN ME FROM XDA
mithun46 said:
OK I AM GOING TO STOP DEVELOPING BCOZ NO ONE SUPPORT ME IN THIS > ARE U GUYS HAPPY NOW!
WILL MAKE SMALL MODS AND I WILL USE ON MY PHONE AND I WILL LEARN
MOds ARE FREE TO CLOSE THIS THREAD AND IF Robbie Hood IS STILL SAD THEN MODS BAN ME FROM XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol do whatever pleases you mate .
It was just advice.
You kniow i helped you before on your tw rom but its very noticeable that you are still very young and you react a bit immature
If i was you after such a fail i would lock myself in my room for months and come back with a masterpiece and prove the world you can develop.
But this is just a learning stage for you and i dont think you should do that in public but just in private
It looks very exciting i guess to be a dev but at your age you should play outside and enjoy the birds and the bees
Robbie Hood said:
lol do whatever pleases you mate .
It was just advice.
You kniow i helped you before on your tw rom but its very noticeable that you are still very young and you react a bit immature
If i was you after such a fail i would lock myself in my room for months and come back with a masterpiece and prove the world you can develop.
But this is just a learning stage for you and i dont think you should do that in public but just in private
It looks very exciting i guess to be a dev but at your age you should play outside and enjoy the birds and the bees
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here is what i want u got help from goldieking
and i dont have anyone to help me
Dont stop developing !
Just dont release anything to people if its unsafe, Firstly, test it out on your own device, Find the faults, Fix them, get everything working properly and safely, Then open a thread and release it.
Rome wasn't built in a day, Do your research, Learn things ask for help, when the knowledge comes, devs will help you, they will teach you they will work along side you.
The majority of devs here have years and years of experience, and if your signature is correct, you're still very young. with the time and patience you can be as popular in no time at all.
No one is angry or upset because of you, They just dont want a million new threads saying ' this rom broke my phone' 'this isnt working' and most of all they dont want people disrespecting you for trying to help the community !
Now I hope some wise words sunk it there and im sure we're all looking forward to what you can bring in the future !
good luck :good:
Thread closed
That's enough. mithun46, study, learn, and develop on your own phone. When you are ready, then release for testing - but be ready to learn even more when you do. Also remember, if there's nothing to download, then it belongs in General. WIP threads don't belong in Development.
[Tutorial] Zenfone 2 ZE551ML - Unlock BootLoader
mod edit:
NO downloads allowed from ANY "survey site"
NO fake downloads allowed.
This is XDA - not some advertising playground, period.
To unlock the boot loader on your Asus Zenfone 2 Ze551ml you need to wait for something real.
Oh wow, anybody want to try this? I'm too lazy and drunk to do so lol
Try if you want a bricked device.
Change device name in link (example ze550ml or cl550ml and you have the same tuto with the same files and same comments).
THIS IS FAKE... PLEASE CHECK THE SOURCE FIRST (FAKE WEBSITE) ... PEOPLE ARE COMMENTING "THANKS FOR THE ROM" ON BOOTLOADER UNLOCKING TOOL... I MEAN SERIOUSLY CHANGE OR I SHOULD SAY FAKE THE COMMENTS....
PLEASE EVERYONE WAIT FOR THE OFFICIAL TOOL WHICH WILL BE RELEASED BY ASUS... AND WHENEVER IT IS RELEASED IT WILL BE ON XDA-FORUMS...TILL THAT TIME DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME ON THESE FAKE WEBSITES AND HARM YOUR DEVICE... AND GUYS IS THERE SOME WAY WE CAN REPORT THIS WEBSITE....I AM REALLY STARTING TO HATE THIS WEBSITE NOW...
MODS: Please review this thread... UNNECESSARY CONFUSION AND WASTE OF THREAD...
relax dude, no need for all caps. mods will be deleting this later i'm sure
Retrolock said:
relax dude, no need for all caps. mods will be deleting this later i'm sure
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sorry bro my bad... i don't know i saw this website like hundred times here on xda... i am really starting to hate this and people are not even checking the source first and posting...i was confused at first i thought Asus released the tool... Same can happen with any user be it novice or a senior member... and the source font is so small anyways you were right i should relax about it :laugh:
I wonder why it's taking Asus so long to release the Unlock tool? I'm a really big Asus fan but if they dont release it...I might switch back to Sammy
Reported the thread, please give links which you tried and verified , not some fake unverified links
Fake installer, I've seen that website before.
OP edited, thread closed.
Obvious fake was obvious, "survey site," not on XDA on my watch. Thanks for playing. Good night now.
As many might know, thanks to Project Treble the work needed to port ROMs has been greatly reduced.
Right now everything is still a bit messy around treble, with people searching in every possible forum (even on ones for other devices) for an image, discussing things not in relation with the topic's original device and just making thing cluttered and hard to find.
We also can see that the great thread put forward by phhusson begins to get the same treatment with people from many devices in the same thread asking device-specific questions (and even questions about devices without Treble-support) when phhusson's initial idea seems to have been to build a base image which could be used / modified for each device. Essentially giving a golden base which only needs small, device-specific, modifications.
Coming back to the title. I want to propose device-specific Treble - Threads. Permitting to let GSI (Generic System Image) threads clutter-free and development oriented, while these type of threads can be used to discuss problems related to specific devices. From what can be seen right now (through the eyes of a non-dev) most of the time only small modifications are needed, which could be managed with a custom kernel or a custom zip containing all fixes.
Hoping to find a way, together, to get Treble even better for us and making work easier for developers.
Feel free to discuss
I agree. Device-specific forums would help with reporting bugs, and finding GSIs for certain devices.
Agreed!
I totally agree, people should acknowledge this and start making a move
Treble development, imho, doesn't need to be branched out for all the specific devices. That's just not it's forte, it's mandate is to be generic, not specific.
Considering some issues may be affecting multiple devices, how about having a distinct support thread, separate from the main development thread, for every GSI?
I feel a threads for every device may be unmanageable, and actually counterproductive once such threads grow.
I've started a Treble Megathread for the Huawei P10 but it's not gaining much traction.
Treble is all well and good but if nobody is actually using it (Phh's RR v3 has only had ~1800 total downloads) then there's going to be very slow progress!
Making treble-enabled devices should just go in the respective device's development subforum that (probably) already exists....
---------- Post added at 06:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 AM ----------
Silently said:
I've started a Treble Megathread for the Huawei P10 but it's not gaining much traction.
Treble is all well and good but if nobody is actually using it (Phh's RR v3 has only had ~1800 total downloads) then there's going to be very slow progress!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's still early days yet. It will gain traction for sure.
I'm a rookie... Inwant to compile a custom rom from source and make it a treble rom that everyone can use. Can anyone suggest me tutorials or stuff like that. I've never compiled before. Any help would be appreciated.
Rifat Rezwan said:
I'm a rookie... Inwant to compile a custom rom from source and make it a treble rom that everyone can use. Can anyone suggest me tutorials or stuff like that. I've never compiled before. Any help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you cant search a bit in the xda forum or search in the internet... Then I think you wont be able to compile your own rom and fix all the bugs.
CosmicDan said:
Making treble-enabled devices should just go in the respective device's development subforum that (probably) already exists....
---------- Post added at 06:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 AM ----------
It's still early days yet. It will gain traction for sure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the problem is not that nobody used it, the problem is that we do not know how to install As well as I have had failures when trying
albertovazquez said:
the problem is not that nobody used it, the problem is that we do not know how to install As well as I have had failures when trying
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So those people that have used it should write a guide on that devices' subforum. There's no need to clutter up the Treble subforum with device-specific things.
albertovazquez said:
the problem is not that nobody used it, the problem is that we do not know how to install As well as I have had failures when trying
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's easy:
Factory reset
Boot fastboot mode
In adb type
fastboot flash system *systemimgname*.img
The.n type fastboot reboot and wait
matze19999 said:
If you cant search a bit in the xda forum or search in the internet... Then I think you wont be able to compile your own rom and fix all the bugs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your tip was so helpful! thank a lot!
It's hard work to make a good rom. It takes much time and you have to know much about Linux / how a kernel works / what libraries do and such things. It isn't something you learn in some days.
Agree! But there is bugs that still didnt fixed by phhusson in aosp. Such as lag when opening app from recents tab (Huawei). Btw its fixed by in Pixel Experience and in Havoc OS but not in the original one ( base rom ) . Treble need some work to be perfect. Remember to old Cyanyogen mod? That one is epic!
matze19999 said:
It's hard work to make a good rom. It takes much time and you have to know much about Linux / how a kernel works / what libraries do and such things. It isn't something you learn in some days.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its not hard. Nobody is willing to show the way. Thats the thing. Nothing is hard.
Rifat Rezwan said:
Its not hard. Nobody is willing to show the way. Thats the thing. Nothing is hard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nothing is hard? wtf are you talking about..
matze19999 said:
nothing is hard? wtf are you talking about..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We have a clown over here.
Rifat Rezwan said:
We have a clown over here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please stop writing such bull****.
When you really think building a rom from source, show what you can. You think it's really sooo easy to fix all the bugs? To get the hardware working?
Developers here on xda need weeks to release a stable build of a rom and you call it easy?
I think you're the clown bro.
Since we now have a working "TWRP", it would be great to have a real Custom ROM. Not to degrade xXx and the other Magisk "ROMs" (using xXx now), but TWRP flash-able ROMs would be great.
Wrong section but correct
gaww said:
Since we now have a working "TWRP", it would be great to have a real Custom ROM. Not to degrade xXx and the other Magisk "ROMs" (using xXx now), but TWRP flash-able ROMs would be great.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where is working TWRP? I'm not seeing anything in searches.
This is news to me, unless u meant a Chinese version...
galaxys said:
This is news to me, unless u meant a Chinese version...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly , but don't think XDA will let me show it here.
You are risking lots with the Chinese version. Not being able to see source , you could be dealing with malware etc
c_86 said:
You are risking lots with the Chinese version. Not being able to see source , you could be dealing with malware etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I scanned the package with viruse and malware software.
Are there any limitations or dangers with that version we should know about? I'd risk it just for the ability to make a solid backup right now.
Can anyone point me in the right direction without breaking XDA policy??
[/COLOR]
c_86 said:
You are risking lots with the Chinese version. Not being able to see source , you could be dealing with malware etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
people keep repeating this, and they don't know what they're talking about. I've been using it for two weeks, it's completely safe, and it works perfectly.
---------- Post added at 03:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 AM ----------
pocholo36 said:
Are there any limitations or dangers with that version we should know about? I'd risk it just for the ability to make a solid backup right now.
Can anyone point me in the right direction without breaking XDA policy??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pm me.
If itnwas safe then why haven't the main devs pick it up
Oh cuz they can't see source. You have no idea what could be loaded in there. Whether it works or not. The point is there COULD be malware or spyware or whatever loaded and you would have no idea
c_86 said:
If itnwas safe then why haven't the main devs pick it up
Oh cuz they can't see source. You have no idea what could be loaded in there. Whether it works or not. The point is there COULD be malware or spyware or whatever loaded and you would have no idea
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me ask you a question. How do you know that normal open-source TWRP doesn't have malware in it?
The reason why 'main devs' as you call them won't accept it, is because of licensing and money. And also embarrassment because they can't figure out how to get a version booting.
The wonderful thing is we can all do what we wish to do. you can use ADB and make your life infinitely harder, and I'll keep using TWRP and accomplish things in a fraction of the time.
Burt Squirtz said:
Let me ask you a question. How do you know that normal open-source TWRP doesn't have malware in it?
The reason why 'main devs' as you call them won't accept it, is because of licensing and money. And also embarrassment because they can't figure out how to get a version booting.
The wonderful thing is we can all do what we wish to do. you can use ADB and make your life infinitely harder, and I'll keep using TWRP and accomplish things in a fraction of the time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not disagreeing at all. You do you and I'll do me. And i prefer not to risk it. All the same to me.
gaww said:
Since we now have a working "TWRP", it would be great to have a real Custom ROM. Not to degrade xXx and the other Magisk "ROMs" (using xXx now), but TWRP flash-able ROMs would be great.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where see a working twrp, here we go again with the Chinese twrp
---------- Post added at 05:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 AM ----------
just to let you know as most of us devs live here on xda and our friends are devs and are working our asses off to get things going like our main twrp dev who has always provided us with twrp since op6 and is working on it now for 3 different devices which now is super hard being our current partitions and such . ... . Fair warning if most of you realized what sacrifices we do so you can have fun with your devices the time and countless hours ( not minutes ) we spend you should think about that and if it wasn't for us you all wouldn't have nothing enough said .
c_86 said:
Not disagreeing at all. You do you and I'll do me. And i prefer not to risk it. All the same to me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here. Sure i have it at my laptop as a fail safe but havent even tried it yet cause i have no need to do so..
c_86 said:
You are risking lots with the Chinese version. Not being able to see source , you could be dealing with malware etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Btw. You are using a chinese phone
Ps: i'll wait for official version
Gesendet von meinem IN2023 mit Tapatalk
musicman5844 said:
Where see a working twrp, here we go again with the Chinese twrp
---------- Post added at 05:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 AM ----------
just to let you know as most of us devs live here on xda and our friends are devs and are working our asses off to get things going like our main twrp dev who has always provided us with twrp since op6 and is working on it now for 3 different devices which now is super hard being our current partitions and such . ... . Fair warning if most of you realized what sacrifices we do so you can have fun with your devices the time and countless hours ( not minutes ) we spend you should think about that and if it wasn't for us you all wouldn't have nothing enough said .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There you go again. You're not a developer ... And why do you care if somebody uses something that's making their life easier?
In case you can't tell the 7t pro still doesn't have a working TWRP. 8 whole months later. There's a working TWRP for OnePlus 8 pro right now. why do you care if someone is using it? How is using a Chinese TWRP going to hurt development? It's not. I'm going to share it with each and every person that asks for i. Because we deserve to use something beyond crappy ADB.
Chinese recovery works just fine. I was running custom TWRP recovery by this Chinese locked LR. Team two years ago on my Xiaomi Mi Pad, and nothing wrong happened. You all could wait year or more for official relase as development is going very slow, or enjoy it now.
Burt Squirtz said:
There you go again. You're not a developer or a mod. And why do you care if somebody uses something that's making their life easier?
In case you can't tell the 7t pro still doesn't have a working TWRP. 8 whole months later. There's a working TWRP for OnePlus 8 pro right now. why do you care if someone is using it? How is using a Chinese TWRP going to hurt development? It's not. I'm going to share it with each and every person that asks for i. Because we deserve to use something beyond crappy ADB.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seems that you dont know anything that you are talking about. How come ADB is crappy? Its quite essential in android development..
Moderator Announcement
This is a thread in the Q&A forum, and as long as the posts are within left and right of the XDA Forum Rules, you can discuss and exchange every opinion, experience and personal view here including recoveries built in whatever country. Simply mind your language before you hit the "submit reply" button and never post in a demanding, argumentative, disrespectful or self-righteous manner or as a self-entitled moderator. And the determination what's acceptable as off-topic in this thread solely rests with the OP @gaww.
However, what we will not allow you to do is to share recoveries (doesn't matter if as an attachment or a download link) unless the recovery is accompanied by the source and if applicable credits are given when due. Nowadays recoveries fall under GPLv3, and we'll enforce this if required. So, I warn everybody who might have this idea do not share a recovery in this thread.
Based on all above, I've cleaned this thread slightly i.e. removed and edited posts where I'd recognised offensive or self-rightous language or self-entitlement. We don't want to be unemployed thus I'd appreciate if moderation is left with the assigned moderators' team. If someone wants to know why I edited or removed a post, please feel free to contact me anytime. This leads me to a serious request: If you spot a post that violates the rules in your opinion, please only report the post via the report function! Do not reply to such a post, do not comment in any way, do not become part of such a discussion! Only in such a manner you avoid to fuel the rant.
Thanks very much for listening and your cooperation!
Stay safe and stay healthy!
Regards
Oswald Boelcke
Forum Moderator
Burt Squirtz said:
[/COLOR]
people keep repeating this, and they don't know what they're talking about. I've been using it for two weeks, it's completely safe, and it works perfectly.
---------- Post added at 03:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 AM ----------
Pm me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that you dont know what you are talking about. Those scanners that you use dont detect back ports etc..
Title says it all, I was trying to install TWRP on OOS 11 but it bricked my device , I tried the same way on OOS 10 and it worked perfectly , any idea if it's possible to install TWRP while having OOS 11 (for OP8P)?
TWRP is not available for A11.
No it isn't, check their thread for updates.
You have another thread in Q+A, please get this one closed.
Is there any way to flash OOS 11 ROM from TWRP? I don't know if the ROM would still fail using this method. Anyone want to chime in?
android86.ad said:
Is there any way to flash OOS 11 ROM from TWRP? I don't know if the ROM would still fail using this method. Anyone want to chime in?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's a thread dedicated to TWRP, all your answers are there.
In short the answer is - not yet.
[Thread Cleaned]
Good day everyone!
Advertising recovery distributions that come without source code should not be done on XDA. As these "off the grid" TWRP iterations are closed, we cannot verify if they can be trusted. We strongly advise to stick with proper distributions on our platform in the interest of your own safety/privacy. Doing research before buying a device can prevent a lot of frustration.
And there's no need to attack each other over something like this. I'm sure we all have more pressing matters to worry about right now. Which in hindsight may also be a catalyst for reacting a bit harsher than usual. Understandable. But let's try to get along anyway ^_^
Stay safe!
Timmy
Forum Moderator
Timmmmaaahh! said:
[Thread Cleaned]
Good day everyone!
Advertising recovery distributions that come without source code should not be done on XDA. As these "off the grid" TWRP iterations are closed, we cannot verify if they can be trusted. We strongly advise to stick with proper distributions on our platform in the interest of your own safety/privacy. Doing research before buying a device can prevent a lot of frustration.
And there's no need to attack each other over something like this. I'm sure we all have more pressing matters to worry about right now. Which in hindsight may also be a catalyst for reacting a bit harsher than usual. Understandable. But let's try to get along anyway ^_^
Stay safe!
Timmy
Forum Moderator
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Censorship here now? Wow
Navyvet63 said:
Censorship here now? Wow
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Always has been here. Nothing new. Post's get deleted all the time for language, slander, off topic, sharing software that is closed source and warez. Not sure why you are surprised.
Navyvet63 said:
Censorship here now? Wow
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. GPLv3 compliance. We love not being sued
Navyvet63 said:
Censorship here now? Wow
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really???
FYI, if it's "developed" by someone on XDA developers, then it's fine (for the most part)
But if it's software that is not developed and freely shared here, like warez eg: apks for apps you haven't paid for or can only be obtained from a said location.
Or like in this case a developers work who is not from XDA and we do not have permission to share then no, you can't share it here or indeed anywhere legally unless you have permission to.
In regards to the TWRP in question I believe they've been approached to collaborate and have plainly said no, so it can't be shared here..
XDA have a responsibility to adhere to these decisions..
I get it's frustrating and we all know what goes on behind the curtain, no one here's thick, but just play the game.
More to the point, I thought the guys were making headway on our TWRP anyway..
Couple that with the fact that you can do pretty much anything without TWRP and it's a non starter really arguing about it anyway