Curious as to whether anyone has tried this. Suspicious as I haven't seen it here lol. Thoughts?
Good luck lol
yeah i saw that site this morning.. anyone have luck?
Jaws4God said:
yeah i saw that site this morning.. anyone have luck?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OCR is non attainable on this device.
Too much stuff to do manually.
elijah420 said:
OCR is non attainable on this device.
Too much stuff to do manually.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
has anyone tried and it fail?
Jaws4God said:
has anyone tried and it fail?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OCR is not attainable on this device.
Too much to do manually.
I always recommend manual methods over one click methods you never know what kind of crap these programs will put on your phone.
Its not the first situation where spyware has ended up on phones from these sites. King Root is a good example.
Sent from my LG-H918 using XDA-Developers Legacy app
evo4g63t said:
I always recommend manual methods over one click methods you never know what kind of crap these programs will put on your phone.
Its not the first situation where spyware has ended up on phones from these sites. King Root is a good example.
Sent from my LG-H918 using XDA-Developers Legacy app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
oh thank you for the heads up.. I was just hoping to find a way to just get simple root on my phone to have access to Gravity Box ... but i do not want to unlock my bootloader and have a custom recovery..
Thanks!
Jaws4God said:
oh thank you for the heads up.. I was just hoping to find a way to just get simple root on my phone to have access to Gravity Box ... but i do not want to unlock my bootloader and have a custom recovery..
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a scam. My dad (without consulting me) tried it on a moto g4. Not only did it not work, he ended up with spyware and spam that I had to get rid of.
There is no simple root. Any phone going forward that is rootable will have to be connected to a pc and adb or odin used to exploit a vulnerability manually.
One click Root Worked For Me (H91810J) T-MO
sjr19 said:
Curious as to whether anyone has tried this. Suspicious as I haven't seen it here lol. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OneClickRoot worked on my T-Mobile H91810J. I've rooted a lot of phones and tried the recowvery and numerous other methods. I couldn't get TWRP to flash because I was missing a few commands not listed. They connect through the program (Oneclickroot) and use a program called Vysor. It has to be manually done by one of their techs. I was able to see and copy their commands and files but again I have a T-mobile not Sprint. To be sure, open a chat session and they will 100 percent verify if they can do it. They ask for everything from the model number, to the build number, security patch info...etc . It has to be done manually by the tech not by the program which will tell you after trying to root that you need to have it done manually by them.
They are legit but not cheap. The up side is they can do it right from your pc or most any pc . It's a 24/7 operation also. Pay the extra for the protection. It isn't cheap but it sure is easy and now I am 99 percent sure I can follow their steps if needed. I see where I messed up in the shell commands. I hate my bootloader locked When I boot though. I still have to access it through ADB unless I am missing something. I also still have the annoying orange oem warning screen. Otherwise full root access. I just don't know what I am going to do if something happens and it has to be reset...etc. I love lux and color changer pro. Completely transforms the device in my opinion. Hopefully we have a solution by then to bypass the entire thing. If I could get a hold of chainfire I'd send the code and files right to him or anyone capable of making this easier on everyone.
I plan on posting the code in the near future I just haven't had time. More to follow. OneClickRoot is legit but not cheap. You also have to have some trust to allow a remote connection. If they say they can do it they can. I tried doing the recowvery step by step and it kept locking up on me do to FRP. I messed up some additional shell commands which I didn't know I needed to actually flash twrp.
I am almost positive they can do the sprint version. Just check with them first via chat which is free.
Unless they have found another exploitable security hole, or your phone has NOT taken the zv6 update, your phone is NOT rootable.
The exploit that allowed dirty cow/Santa/elf, copy on write, has been plugged.
Legitimacy of their operation aside, the exploit was plugged with the zv6 update.
Related
I got my mytouch(the older one, the one without the headphone jack). I have been trying to root it ever since then. but I can not do it at all.
1. I can not access my phone through adb NO MATTER WHAT, I have tried this in xp,7 and ubuntu. I always get no device found, but in fastboot mode, it is able to pick it up!!! Is there something that I need to enable on the phone? Or should the phone be in any special mode?
2. I have tried to downgrade to 1.5 using the sapimg, but it did not work at all. I would not mind using the goldcard method even though I have been advised not to do so. Even If I chose to use the gold card method, I could not do so since my adb method is not working properly!!!
Also my mytouch is unlocked, if that makes any difference.
vz2487 said:
I got my mytouch(the older one, the one without the headphone jack). I have been trying to root it ever since then. but I can not do it at all.
1. I can not access my phone through adb NO MATTER WHAT, I have tried this in xp,7 and ubuntu. I always get no device found, but in fastboot mode, it is able to pick it up!!! Is there something that I need to enable on the phone? Or should the phone be in any special mode?
2. I have tried to downgrade to 1.5 using the sapimg, but it did not work at all. I would not mind using the goldcard method even though I have been advised not to do so. Even If I chose to use the gold card method, I could not do so since my adb method is not working properly!!!
Also my mytouch is unlocked, if that makes any difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
do you have debugging mode on.. on the phone go to setting>application>development..turn on debugging mode... and do u have androidsdk set up??
p.s. go check out unlockr.com for a how to root they have videos
ADB works
Thanks, ADB works. Now I just need to get the phone rooted. I had no idea that it had to be enabled!!!
As for unlocker.com it does not work, its a spam site. I am going to try to root it again.
vz2487 said:
Thanks, ADB works. Now I just need to get the phone rooted. I had no idea that it had to be enabled!!!
As for unlocker.com it does not work, its a spam site. I am going to try to root it again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is the error you are getting while trying to root using sampping.nbh?
I rooted my phone using unlockr.com, so unless you can prove things, dont start making statements about them.
vz2487 said:
I got my mytouch(the older one, the one without the headphone jack). I have been trying to root it ever since then. but I can not do it at all.
1. I can not access my phone through adb NO MATTER WHAT, I have tried this in xp,7 and ubuntu. I always get no device found, but in fastboot mode, it is able to pick it up!!! Is there something that I need to enable on the phone? Or should the phone be in any special mode?
2. I have tried to downgrade to 1.5 using the sapimg, but it did not work at all. I would not mind using the goldcard method even though I have been advised not to do so. Even If I chose to use the gold card method, I could not do so since my adb method is not working properly!!!
Also my mytouch is unlocked, if that makes any difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is this to do with development?>??
FFS everyone of you guys that has never posted before just starts a new thread because you cannot figure out what your doing
there are forums for you but they are not here!
ayush20m said:
What is the error you are getting while trying to root using sampping.nbh?
I rooted my phone using unlockr.com, so unless you can prove things, dont start making statements about them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These are the errors I am getting:
"model ID incorrect
update Fail!"
Also are you talking about theunlockr.com/? If you are then its a good site, has nice videos. Thats where I did most of my research.
vz2487 said:
Thanks, ADB works. Now I just need to get the phone rooted. I had no idea that it had to be enabled!!!
As for unlocker.com it does not work, its a spam site. I am going to try to root it again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its not theunlocker.com its theunlockr.com <<< no "e" before the "r"
o yea sorry i didnt add the "the" before
vz2487 said:
These are the errors I am getting:
"model ID incorrect
update Fail!"
Also are you talking about theunlockr.com/? If you are then its a good site, has nice videos. Thats where I did most of my research.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This means your phone came pre installed with 1.6, you will have to use goldcard. There is no other way to root your phone.
Provide your phone information through fastboot. Turn off your phone, do back+power, then write your SPL (e.g 1.33.0004), radio (e.g. 2.22.19.26I), stuff like that is all on there. Then you can turn off your phone by holding down power again
So I got the Froyo update and it killed my ability to tether and root.
Seriously, Im even having trouble with WIRED tethering. Its not working and wont root.
Please point me in the direction of some noob friendly step by step instructions for installing a custom rom that is tethering friendly, along with any info for simply getting wired or wireless tethering to work after the Froyo update?
You shouldn't have installed the update.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
Yeah I know. Is there nothing I can do now?
They say they can bring you back to 2.1 if you take it to the shop. Does the update do anything that prevents installing ROMs? When they bring you back to 2.1, will that fix whatever they did or is it in that version now too?
Why can't you root?
Because I accepted the update and the update killed root and tethering for me? I guess there was a way to upgrade without accepting that update.
z4root wont work, and also it says that the OS no longer has the drivers to support the free wireless tethering apps.
......Did you read the OP?
So how am I supposed to root if I cant even use clockwork to install new roms without root access? Am I totally ****ed? Should I just return this phone and get one from Verizon?
Yes I read the OP but the 2.2.1 update doesn't prevent rooting again. If it did, I wouldn't be rooted right now.
I'm not sure what you did or didn't do, but the one click method works.
hes never been one clicked. he only used z4root.
Nick_Djinn said:
z4root wont work, and also it says that the OS no longer has the drivers to support the free wireless tethering apps.
......Did you read the OP?
So how am I supposed to root if I cant even use clockwork to install new roms without root access??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
z4root is hokey. you need to use the oneclick root. its really simple.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=770388
use this thred. it is for real root, not z4. also, the drivers are installed on your computer, not your phone.
austin420 said:
z4root is hokey. you need to use the oneclick root. its really simple.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=770388
use this thred. it is for real root, not z4. also, the drivers are installed on your computer, not your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for something helpful finally.
That makes sense. I tried installing it on my phone. Thank you for noticing that.
You know, if you wrote these instructions for noobs it would really help....For example, when we are dealing with not 1 but 2 devices, it might be helpful to describe which device is doing what. One minute I am doing something with the phone and the next its just "install this"....Dumb it down a bit, like you are talking to people who dont know anything about anything.
Anyway, thanks. Im going to try this now.
Nick_Djinn said:
Thank you for something helpful finally.
That makes sense. I tried installing it on my phone. Thank you for noticing that.
You know, if you wrote these instructions for noobs it would really help....For example, when we are dealing with not 1 but 2 devices, it might be helpful to describe which device is doing what. One minute I am doing something with the phone and the next its just "install this"....Dumb it down a bit, like you are talking to people who dont know anything about anything.
Anyway, thanks. Im going to try this now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't feel too bad. I had to read that stuff several times before even deciding whether I should try it.
It keeps saying phone is not connected, even though it says USB-storage is enabled and I can access the files on my phone.
Don't click on mass storage.....and turn on usb debugging
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
The NON-One click solution seems doable but complicated, and I dont really know what I am doing.
Im thinking about paying somebody to root the phone properly. One person advertised in the SF Bay Area that I know of.
wytecaztle said:
Don't click on mass storage.....and turn on usb debugging
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cool.
Thanks for the support. Im going to try this at least for another day or so before giving up.
OK. Now it says rage against the cage is missing.
The file is clearly there, but VLC media player wants to open it instead of anything useful.
do you use any sort of anti virus? it will remove things from the ragagainstthecage exploit. disable you antivirus for a few minutes and redownload the the rootpackage. im not saying thats what the problem is, im just saying antivirus clashes with the root method.
A little effort goes a long way. Getting root is easy for the epic. Install the samsung drivers, turn on usb debuging on phone, extract the oneclick folder and run the "run.bat" file and let it do its thing.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Nick_Djinn said:
OK. Now it says rage against the cage is missing.
The file is clearly there, but VLC media player wants to open it instead of anything useful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had that problem also and it turned out that I was trying to run it from a networked drive. I had to unzip the file to my computer desktop then run the program from there before it worked properly.
If you check out this thread there is a how to video i made to root and flash a rom. Check it out, I think it will help you out.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1009997
make sure correct samsung drivers are installed on your computer (32 or 64)
download and extract once click root to your computer
Enable usb debugging on your phone (settings - applications - development - usb debugging)
Plug phone into computer
Run run.bat, wait, and enjoy.
So the Thrive is now Rooted. How long we get a One Click Root for us less daring ppl?
p.s. Thanks to everyone to helped accomplish root!
That would be great
I would be, but it is on the horizon, as there are still some kinks.
I was testing today with another member at thriveforums on how to go back to stock, and still needs some work.
this is what I'm waiting on as well. I don't have the patience to go through the other root method
It would be great if it got to be as simple as attn1s HTC Inspire/DHD Hack Kit V11. that is truly a one click rooting.
moe3754 said:
It would be great if it got to be as simple as attn1s HTC Inspire/DHD Hack Kit V11. that is truly a one click rooting.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but limited to a specific release of the rom? so its not working on all, although "one-click", a few more steps until you do the actual "one-click"
I don't think we'll have a one-click anytime soon since we just got root.
Would be nice though
originalone said:
but limited to a specific release of the rom? so its not working on all, although "one-click", a few more steps until you do the actual "one-click"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do not understand what you mean?? the Hack kit is one click all you do is choose hack my inspire and it does everything including S off and super CID. It even puts the gold card in a folder so you do not even have to make one.Attn1 has made it so simple a moron could root a phone!!!! And it is not limited to anything no matter if it was a first release inspire last Febuary or a inspire purchased today it will root it!!!
Would be nice, but yeah.. looks to be a small while for that..
omgitswes said:
this is what I'm waiting on as well. I don't have the patience to go through the other root method
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Minus the download time, it takes about 3 minutes to root it, because all you do is push the the system file and recovery from fastboot via adb, the flash the update in recovery to enable superuser.
moe3754 said:
I do not understand what you mean?? the Hack kit is one click all you do is choose hack my inspire and it does everything including S off and super CID. It even puts the gold card in a folder so you do not even have to make one.Attn1 has made it so simple a moron could root a phone!!!! And it is not limited to anything no matter if it was a first release inspire last Febuary or a inspire purchased today it will root it!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey! Us morons have feelings too, you know
The apple rooters over on their site just click a download and they are rooted.
Muffycheeks said:
The apple rooters over on their site just click a download and they are rooted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
guys, I do not think you understand something about one clicks. They use an exploit to gain temporary root. This allows everything required to be installed to allow root to be permanent. Currently, no exploit has been found to work on the Thrive. That being said, you have to install a boot image that gives you root access. Once this is done, you can add the additional files to gain fill root. So, at present, you will need two steps. One to flash a new boot image (and recovery if you want one to allow easier mods) and then installation of superuser update if there is on and busybox. The devs are working on a single flash to allow this to be automated, but you will still have to have adb working and run fastboot to get this to work. Hope this clears up some of your questions.
dalepl said:
guys, I do not think you understand something about one clicks. They use an exploit to gain temporary root. This allows everything required to be installed to allow root to be permanent. Currently, no exploit has been found to work on the Thrive. That being said, you have to install a boot image that gives you root access. Once this is done, you can add the additional files to gain fill root. So, at present, you will need two steps. One to flash a new boot image (and recovery if you want one to allow easier mods) and then installation of superuser update if there is on and busybox. The devs are working on a single flash to allow this to be automated, but you will still have to have adb working and run fastboot to get this to work. Hope this clears up some of your questions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And still, if you can work command prompt, and have adb set up via sdk folder, it still takes 3 minutes to push the files via fastboot, and apply the update zip in recovery.
I just installed the pre-root gingerbread update for the droid x2. I have a thrive. How hard is it going to be? (I run Linux Mint primarily)
primetime34 said:
I just installed the pre-root gingerbread update for the droid x2. I have a thrive. How hard is it going to be? (I run Linux Mint primarily)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you mean for the thrive, you just need a adb set up, then flash the boot and recovery via fastboot and the update.zip in recovery.
The hardest part is getting adb and fastboot set up. Once you have fastboot its simple.
moe3754 said:
It would be great if it got to be as simple as attn1s HTC Inspire/DHD Hack Kit V11. that is truly a one click rooting.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i really hope and pray that this is soon accomplished, i think i speak for everyone in this thread when i say manually rooting can be a scary experience if your a noob or jus plain lack the skill, i mean who wants to play russian roulette with a device exceeding $500.00 in price anyway?
Thankfully for us, there were quite enough brave folks that were willing to do just that, else we wouldn't have gotten this close......
But, I am with you and am sitting back and awaiting an more bullet-proof method of rooting.
virgo wattson said:
i really hope and pray that this is soon accomplished, i think i speak for everyone in this thread when i say manually rooting can be a scary experience if your a noob or jus plain lack the skill, i mean who wants to play russian roulette with a device exceeding $500.00 in price anyway?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only way to get a one-click root is to abuse an exploit. Finding an exploit is not something that happens quickly if at all and it wouldn't be an exploit that is Thrive specific, just specific to whatever version of Honeycomb.
I actually wouldn't expect any exploits to be found until Ice Cream Sandwich comes out and unites all the android platforms. More people = more chance to find an exploit.
so i am happy to see they got root for the V20 VS995. but i got my V20 today, well i am looking around for root and found a BL method
so i want to know will this method work with VS99513A or is there a better method for this phone, i be so happy to root this phone hehehe
thank you all
LASERWOLF452 said:
so i am happy to see they got root for the V20 VS995. but i got my V20 today, well i am looking around for root and found a BL method
so i want to know will this method work with VS99513A or is there a better method for this phone, i be so happy to root this phone hehehe
thank you all
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only way to root the VS995 is to unlock the BL/root using the DirtySanta method. It works with 13A. It will not work if you update to anything past that.
Be sure to read the thread in detail and hope you are proficient with Android, ADB, and fastboot as the process is not for beginners.
It can be a bit nerve racking at times (especially when your phone starts vibrating like crazy....which is normal for the process) but the method does work. Sometimes things don't go 100% according to the description so that's where you need to know what you are doing.
Artimis said:
The only way to root the VS995 is to unlock the BL/root using the DirtySanta method. It works with 13A. It will not work if you update to anything past that.
Be sure to read the thread in detail and hope you are proficient with Android, ADB, and fastboot as the process is not for beginners.
It can be a bit nerve racking at times (especially when your phone starts vibrating like crazy....which is normal for the process) but the method does work. Sometimes things don't go 100% according to the description so that's where you need to know what you are doing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well this will be the 3rd device i have to use ADB on as i rooted a htc evo and a acer iconia tablet 700
but before i touch this method i always look around for answers and ask questions before doing it
while i still get info about this root, is there a way to disable the system update without root, i tried the debloater and it dose not pick up anything. it sees the phone tho so idk y it wont pick up any packages, i dont wont to accidently install 14b
LASERWOLF452 said:
well this will be the 3rd device i have to use ADB on as i rooted a htc evo and a acer iconia tablet 700
but before i touch this method i always look around for answers and ask questions before doing it
while i still get info about this root, is there a way to disable the system update without root, i tried the debloater and it dose not pick up anything. it sees the phone tho so idk y it wont pick up any packages, i dont wont to accidently install 14b
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You could try "pm disable <package name>". Don't know if it works on an unrooted device though.
There are two system update apks...one can be disabled through the app manager. The other cannot so you will need to use the command above. I believe the package name is: com.lge.lgdmsclient
There is also an option in the developer settings to prevent autoinstall of an update
Does anyone know how to root the ZTE Maven 3 (z835)?
Need the same info.
Looking for a root confirmation for either this ZTE Maven 3 (z835) or Pixi Avion (STALA570BGP4P) both under $30 android phones I want to use as sort of an iPod touch alternative.
Can't find solid info on either one.
Bootloader unlock
I just want to unlock the bootloader I want to Port a rom to this device
I think there is some new protection they added to prevent developer mode the usual way. When I tap the build number several times, I get this big N in the middle of the screen.
Tim Elliott said:
I think there is some new protection they added to prevent developer mode the usual way. When I tap the build number several times, I get this big N in the middle of the screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
U go to about phone and click on build number 7times
blankaultra1 said:
Does anyone know how to root the ZTE Maven 3 (z835)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
PHug said:
Need the same info.
Looking for a root confirmation for either this ZTE Maven 3 (z835) or Pixi Avion (STALA570BGP4P) both under $30 android phones I want to use as sort of an iPod touch alternative.
Can't find solid info on either one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm gonna try root tonight and see how it goes
RomLord14495 said:
I'm gonna try root tonight and see how it goes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you have any ideas I didn't try? Interested
000Nick said:
Do you have any ideas I didn't try? Interested
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try king root pc I don't have pc so try it out
RomLord14495 said:
Try king root pc I don't have pc so try it out
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I already did. Both on the OS and in FTM mode. No dice.
000Nick said:
I already did. Both on the OS and in FTM mode. No dice.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you tried the old write protection method yet?
---------- Post added at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------
Run this command in adb shell or terminal
Adb reboot disemmcwp
status update
Any updates on this? Did the adb reboot disemmcpw command work?
Idk I don't have a computer I've seen that command on a couple forums so I thought someone could try it out it is to disable write protection
Sanras said:
Any updates on this? Did the adb reboot disemmcpw command work?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure - I think this is useful to gain root persistence from what I'm reading. ADB and root tools (like kingroot on pc/android) don't have any more permissions than they did before. We need to somehow exploit FTM or EDL mode for unlocked bootloader, like how the Axon 7 was unlocked. I don't think we'll have any luck with regular userland exploits on Android 7.1.1 with July security update...
000Nick said:
Not sure - I think this is useful to gain root persistence from what I'm reading. ADB and root tools (like kingroot on pc/android) don't have any more permissions than they did before. We need to somehow exploit FTM or EDL mode for unlocked bootloader, like how the Axon 7 was unlocked. I don't think we'll have any luck with regular userland exploits on Android 7.1.1 with July security update...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah the axon 7 was great to root with exploits I wish so i wish someone had a bunch of free time to make one for this phone
Whatever you guys want me to install on this phone; I'll be happy to. A year ago I got the Alcatel Ideal 4060a for $10 on Black Friday, unlocked it for free right away, (this was before AT&T required 6 months of active service to unlock) and now "that" phone is rooted, has it's own TWRP recovery, there's a Custom Rom for it on XDA, etc.
1 year later, I picked up this ZTE Maven 3 on Black Friday for $8, unlocked it for $1.70 online. I hope the similarities don't end there. These phones are great casting devices.
The ideal was a great phone but this zte is stubborn try the write protect command with king root on the first post in this
RomLord14495 said:
Have you tried the old write protection method yet?
Run this command in adb shell or terminal
Adb reboot disemmcwp
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RomLord14495 said:
The ideal was a great phone but this zte is stubborn try the write protect command with king root on the first post in this
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Disabling system write protection before rooting didn't wok. The Maven 3 is recognized by ADB just fine, reboots fine after "Adb reboot disemmcwp", Kingo ROOT completes the root-check to 100%, but it shows the dreaded "ROOT Failed" message.
word?
I have 2 of these sitting on my desk, unopened.
Would like to put in service, but not on AT&T rapine.
Try putting the phone in FTM mode and plugging the phone into your PC and run the root program. The only issue with that is it works until the phone is rebooted. That's worked on other ZTE phones I've had. I haven't seen a stable solution yet.
Trysten.D.Tenney said:
Try putting the phone in FTM mode and plugging the phone into your PC and run the root program. The only issue with that is it works until the phone is rebooted. That's worked on other ZTE phones I've had. I haven't seen a stable solution yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That doesn't work either.
If I could just remove those stupid "Play Movies & TV, Play Music, and Gmail" apps I never use, I would be happy. Those apps alone take up around 200mb of storage just being installed, you can't disable them either.